EPISODE 10: Mike Asebrook on GTM Strategy, Competitive Focus, and the Emotional Power of Customer-Centered Marketing

Speaker A: Welcome to the Last Word on Product Marketing, a podcast hosted by Liza Czechosy, founder of Last Word Marketing. Liza helps Martech and ad tech companies align product strategy with marketing execution. On her podcast, Liza and her guests talk about how to avoid pitfalls and achieve success in product marketing. Hello, it's another episode of the Last Word on Product Marketing podcast. I'm Liza Czakowski, a uh, fractional product marketer and consultant with Last Word Marketing and the host of this podcast. Today, my guest is Mike acebrook, who has 20 years worth of product marketing experience in the tech sector. So I'm eager to get even more nerdy about product marketing than usual. He's currently senior director of product marketing at uh Amagi, a cloud based SaaS platform that helps content owners launch, distribute and monetize live linear channels on connected TV and subscription video on demand platforms. As I said, Mike has extensive experience in product marketing and management roles in the technology and media industries. He was vice president of, uh, product marketing at M Files, which is a global leader in information management. And he's held marketing leadership positions at pegasystems, Genesys, and Sys. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Mike.

Speaker B: Great to be here, Eliza.

Speaker A: So I like to start out kind of broad and then get more specific in our discussion. You've mostly worked at large enterprise companies. How do you approach aligning a high level corporate strategy with your product marketing strategy?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it does vary. I've worked at a bunch of different size companies and I think the best case scenario was one of the companies that you mentioned in the intro went out of their way to create these scorecards for, uh, corporate initiatives in terms of overall strategy that they would print out and they wanted to make sure everyone had that at their desk. It was great. Kind of top of mind in the beginning of the year. You know, put it in your, your cube and it keeps you kind of aware and it just reminds you of, oh, these are the pillars that I want to be sure that I'm working on. Whether it's day to day, weekly, quarterly, annually, how I measured, you know, as a, uh, as an individual, these, these need to align with these corporate objectives. And, but I've also seen some challenges where, you know, some companies like to move the goal posts a lot. You know, look, squirrel. And that's really tough to pivot. Um, and it can cause a lot of confusion, a lot of friction, a lot of like adjusting where your focus should be. And I've seen that, you know, not work so well. So it's really kind of somewhere in the middle, you know, do I, do I do everything every day that aligns to corporate objectives every single day? No, but at the same time it's great to keep that as kind of your North Star as you're working towards those and whether that's creating a plan for content, you know, campaigns, uh, messaging, copy, strategy. Strategy and execution go together to align, you know, with the top level of those corporate initiatives.

Speaker A: Great. How do you keep your team also aligned while you're going to the strategy meetings and come back with maybe a, uh, different approach that you've all learned about?

Speaker B: Yeah, it all happens. I think being a really solid communicator and keeping them updated is really important. No one wants to hear about something that was kind of talked about over a water cooler or in a private meeting. I think keeping them aligned and just over communicate and keeping them in the loop is really important and may not have all the answers. But I'm really kind of focusing on why it's important and why we need to pivot sometimes.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. So what's a strategy or an initiative that you've implemented that's made an impact?

Speaker B: Yeah, couple things. Go to market strategy and execution, such a big part of product marketing. And some of these companies that I've worked for have had either established processes with, uh, the right tools where people understand what's at stake. But then there's companies that have kind of the wild west, like, we're ready, we're, we're gonna go, we're, we're launching, we're gonna throw it over the wall and see what sticks. And that's always something that speaks, an opportunity to, you know, implement a change. So what I've done in at least two different companies is help with the go to market strategy when it comes to launch, uh, tiers. And it will bore some people to tears. But if you can actually have fun with it and label it as more of the T shirt size approach, large, medium and small, I think that really resonates with people because then they know that, oh, we have a large release coming up. All hands on deck. All the content, all the enablement, all the press, all the events, all the announcements that needs to go into that large, um, T shirt size launch, perhaps one that might be medium or small, may only have like a single feature or maybe a small has primarily, you know, bug fixes and enhancements, just relying on release notes. And to me that, that does a number of great things. It keeps people like, informed of what's expected so you can plan appropriately. There's nothing worse than having everyone all on deck for every single launch. It's not when it's not necessary, you don't want to bother engineering, you don't want to bother like the demand gen team for a small release for everything and having the ability to be accessible and track it on your progress, looking at any sort of bottlenecks, looking at uh, dependencies, looking at how we can work together really helps you get to that level of cadence that's necessary to launch a uh, product and be successful. So you can hit your KPIs and have everyone be informed and not be surprised at something launching.

Speaker A: Sure. What are the KPIs that you typically track? It's so difficult in product marketing.

Speaker B: There's no, it's a dark art, I have to say. So it all depends. Typically it's, lately it's been, you know, pipeline metrics, revenue metrics, but there's certainly upsell, cross sell metrics, hitting dates, uh, website visits, uh, a number of things, engagement level metrics, uh, but there's no standard set that I go to every single time.

Speaker A: Yes, same that has been my experience as well. So what's been your approach to standing out and has your strategy kind of evolved as new competitors come into the scene, buyers expectations change or there's even regulatory changes. It's very difficult I think to, to differentiate when the market is changing so rapidly.

Speaker B: It is, I think every company I've worked for has been in a saturated market and anyone that hasn't been hats off to you, I would love that. But I find that there are three sources that I tend to go to to differentiate. And I think the first one is really understanding where you're portrayed in the market. And sometimes I've been fortunate enough to rely on the Gartners and the Foresters and the idcs to tell me, oh, you are a leader or you're a laggard or you're an upstart. That's, I think that's really important to understand and know because that uh, will tell you, oh, I need to defend this position or I need to shift my priority and you know, fill that gap. To go from a upstart to a laggard to a, to a leader. So really understanding, you know, your market is really important. And then the second one is kind of obvious, but knowing your competitors and spending probably more time on who you compete with the most, um, but certainly not forgetting about the ones that are kind of making the noise and upstarts and really? And it's not just going to their website and checking out their messaging and copy. It's like signing up for their free trials. It's looking at their community portal, seeing what their customers are saying. A lot of that information is out there. Release notes, documentation, updates on releases. And yes, people say, oh, you can go check them out at events. I don't know. I challenge anyone to come back and tell me like, oh, they gave me three demos and I know everything about their product. It just can't really rely on that. There are tricks getting around that. I'm sure people use resellers and other people find out third hand information and then the last one is talking to your customers, doing customer interviews, digging deep in win loss analysis, looking at customer wins, customer loss, even doing customer testimonials, which I love to do in case studies. Customers, once they trust you, it's amazing how much information you get from them without even trying. They'll tell you about that buying process, what it was like going to your company, good, bad and all. They'll tell you what sort of competitors they looked at they kicked the tires on. They'll tell you what their trigger points. They'll tell you a lot of great things that you can kind of put together and extract out of that from market competitors and customers and put that all together and really kind of do your own SWOT analysis and be honest about it and really figure out where you stand.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I also find that partnering with the product team to uh, encourage them to be a little more stealth and get under hood of some of the competing technologies.

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker A: And sometimes you can also, you know, find out if people are willing to talk more broadly without violating any confidentiality. If they have worked someplace in the past or even if they had worked there a couple years ago can also be quite helpful.

Speaker B: I, I agree, that's a great point. Especially in our industry, a lot of people move, um, finding out if someone used to work at a competitor unless they're on some sort of like as you said, some sort of agreement where they can't talk. Actually they do and finding some insight is really helpful. And then doing, you know, the product team, doing a feature analysis, look at feature gaps, look at our, your roadmap.

Speaker A: Yes, that's a great way to collaborate, kind of cross functionally I think. But cross functional alignment can kind of make or break the product's success. Can you think of a time when there was more of a breakdown in communication either between marketing, product or sales that caused success, some pain to the business and how do you go about fixing that?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, quite a few times. I think that, I think it all goes back to processes. Um, go to market, launch. Everyone has a different opinion on who owns go to market. And I've been at companies where you may pre announce something for a product that may not be ready, especially on those that are not a publicly traded company. And then there's that gap of figuring out, oh, that product is actually in beta. Maybe we shouldn't have pre announced something and confused our customers and confused our sales staff, uh, without being enabled, you know, to launch a product. And I think that has been probably the biggest challenge and disconnect in terms of where maybe leadership thinks a product is and where it should be that causes all sorts of problems because then sales will be like, well, I thought you announced that three months ago and you're telling me I can't use it. So. Yeah, I think larger established companies typically have those processes. But some of the startups going through some growing pains and you're so excited about your technology that you want to roll it out and be the first. But also that comes with a lot of challenges and pains at the same time.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I have found that sometimes at a smaller company there's even a debate around what is a product launch. Because me, a product launch is something that's going to make an impact on revenue. But sometimes people like you mentioned in the product or engineering team feel excited about a specific feature or button and they're like, we should do a product launch. And I'm like, or we could just put a note in the ui.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're right. I think I have different ideas on when a product is ready. And um, really getting into the weeds sometimes is important to determine what stage a product is at. You know, alpha beta, limited availability, general availability, when you can start talking about it with prospects. And I think having that process in place is really important and, but I get it, you know, uh, especially for a startup, you want to be the forefront and really get things out and announce. And sometimes companies can get away with it, but I've seen more challenges with that than positive outcomes.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And you always want to encourage enthusiasm. So much of product marketing comes down to communication and the way you communicate. So speaking a little bit about the technical features, um, and creating positivity and connection, I think that many times companies lead with technical features, but great marketing really builds an emotional connection which can be challenging. In B2B tech marketing, how do you make your message a little more customer centric? While also showcasing the power of the product and balancing the emotional benefits, um, with the actual benefits.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. I mean, B2B, that emotional connection is definitely important. It all goes back, you know, knowing, knowing that customer, knowing what makes them tick, what keeps them up at night, what are those trigger points? What are they looking for? Like, why do they start their whole buying journey? I think you can have the best copy, the best messaging, the best visuals on your website. Unless there's that connection, they're not gonna just like fade out after a while. So, uh, to me, the best approach is looking at their peers and doing it through customer testimonials, case studies, like real people, real titles, real challenges, understanding, you know, by Persona what those challenges are, what the solution, what the benefit was, what are the business outcomes. And a lot of these buying decisions are those. They, they want to look good, right? Keep their jobs, get promoted, make them, you know, happy, make others happy, make their jobs easier, spend more time with their kids. You know, that's the, that's the whole goal. That's the emotional connection. And I think that to be customer centric, you really have to pivot towards that type of format and less on words and text and everything else.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I think that what you're talking about is essentially sales. Right? The intersection between marketing, product and sales is what product marketing is. And I totally agree that the sale that's going to make that person's life easier, better, more convenient, um, and make them look good to their boss is always the North Star star versus, you know, talking a little bit more about like, well, this button will do this thing.

Speaker B: It could be that there's a buyer at the table that is interested in those things and maybe more on the technical integration side. Do you support this? Can you integrate with them? I find it pretty rare now that someone will bring like a, uh, well, the, this vendor can do X, Y and Z, and you can only do X and Y. It comes up occasionally. But I agree you shouldn't lead with their features. I've worked at technical companies that like to lead with that, and that's hard because you're missing the whole point of the trust and the emotional connection and what's in it for them, the business outcome. That's really a key part of what product marketing should do.

Speaker A: Yes, well, well said. So getting the sales team to embrace, um, everything that you're talking about and getting their buy in is often at least half, if not the entire battle. What are the best ways that you've built trust with the sales team and ensure that they actually use all the great materials that you and your team have created.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think it goes back to trust building. Definitely. I've had some salespeople use everything that I've created. Decks, messaging, you can even hear them repeat your own pitch and that's like, feel good. But then they're like what I call the mavericks that kind of go out and do their own thing or if they ask you for something, um, and they're like, I just need a one pager with, you know, three bullets. I'm like, um, sure, we can do that. But I think building trust is through the other, you know, communication. So I meet with the sales team on a regular basis and update them on, you know, what we're up to. New content, new assets, new events, campaigns, what's going on, make it a two way street, make sure there's a feedback loop. What do they need? Where can they find things? So, you know, I think having a great sales hub is really important and to make sure that they know where to find things. Things at all times and then I think wherever possible. Being a part of any sales meetings, I've become a little bit more bold, inviting myself to meetings, to quarterly business reviews, being present. And I think when you get the opportunity to pitch to prospects or existing customers and you see them nod their head or say they're speaking my language or this is great, that builds trust because sales sees that your messaging or content works for them. And I think knowing what you're talking about, knowing your customer, knowing the market, knowing the competitors, knowing how you can help them sell, uh, and it takes time, it's not going to happen overnight, but it will come if you just keep that consistent cadence and communication and awareness.

Speaker A: Sure. Um, I encourage them to kind of go out and test drive and then come back with feedback. I think that reduces the pressure on both sides. Side, sometimes I think sales teams feel like, well, marketing gave us this deck, so now I can either accept or reject it, which isn't really a binary that is productive or realistic. Right. Because they're going to be presenting it to a real person who we can't predict necessarily what their response is going to be. So coming to the meeting too and seeing firsthand is really helpful. I also, in, uh, a previous podcast, I marketing director told me that they ask the salespeople to send them their zoom recordings so that while maybe they don't go to the meeting, they can look at the recordings, which I thought was a really great, not stealth but like, cause they're giving you the recording but um, kind of again maybe a lower pressure way. And she said that she emphasized to these salespeople that this isn't a gotcha moment. You know, you're the one out there selling. We a hundred percent appreciate that about their job. But it um, can really be enlightening to be able to see what the response is on the other side.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think going back to what you said earlier about feedback on content, I always tell them like, hey, this is a deck tailor. It like you don't have to go through each slide. And if I can't be there in those sales meetings, yeah, we do uh, automated call notes that are shared. There are also certain interactions where depending on the customer or the prospect, they don't want a lot of slides. So it's more of a top level discussion. That's where the one pagers or the leave behinds come into play or the demos or the videos. It all, it all depends. So it's a wide gamut of what they really need. But it has to be have that feedback loop, otherwise you're just going to assume it's great. And um, it may not be.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. So we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, I'm going to talk to Mike to dig a little deeper into his career and background. Welcome back. We're talking to Mike Asbrook, who is a product marketing leader at Amagi. Mike, I'd love to get some insight about things you've learned along your career path. So looking back, can you think of an experience that shaped your leadership style or decision making approach?

Speaker B: Yeah. Before I started off in product management and product marketing, I ran a QA team. So I was more on the technical side. I somehow inherited a very large team of QA engineers and it was a mix of senior managers, managers, interns. I was barely a few years out of college. I mean I was not ready and prepared for that. So I definitely learned a lot through uh, that process. I'm glad I was able to make some mistakes, learn through the process. Um, and I learned that it's not a cookie cutter approach. If you have a team of 17 people, every person is different, every person has different needs, different goal setting, different ways of interacting. And so I learned a lot through that process to really kind of make sure that you have a tailored approach for each person, uh, on your team, but not analysis paralysis at the same time because you'll never get anything done. So it's really that Balance of just kind of learning, making a few mistakes, getting out there, getting feedback from them. Uh, I still keep in touch with those people. They've really evolved into doing some amazing things and worked at some great companies. So I look back at that as a unique opportunity to kind of really cut my teeth and managing and developing that style that I still use today.

Speaker A: How would you characterize that style?

Speaker B: Ah, I'm open at all times, probably too much person. I like to find out about what people like outside of work and make that personal connection, but at the same time, trust them and be hands off. I assume once they get going and are onboarded and ready to go, they're going to be professional enough to do the right thing and make their own decisions and when needed, help out. So that's, that's my approach to, to managing people.

Speaker A: Nice. So on the flip side, have you ever received a really bad piece of advice or conventional wisdom that you've been told you decided you were not going to adopt?

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Um, early on, again, and I can't do the voice of this person. He was a big, tall, British guy and he, uh, he was new to the company and he had, I think, our first meeting with the marketing people, he said that marketing was all the pink stuff in the clouds. And that's what he described marketing as. And that I get it, you know, it's fluffy and should be light and, you know, colorful. I think that's where he was going. But for some reason, that visual just never really did anything for me or anyone else on the team. So that was kind of, uh, something that I look back on that I will probably, you know, never say. And I thought it was pretty funny because I don't think of that when I think of marketing. Sure. There's a blend of, you know, great words put together, um, on message, and it could be funny and it can be on point and, you know, personal, but it's not the pink, fluffy stuff in the clouds. I just think that that's not a good strategy or approach to, uh, when describing marketing.

Speaker A: That's an interesting one. It sounds like he was feminizing marketing and maybe not such a positive way.

Speaker B: You know, Um, I never thought about that, but you're right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker A: So, as we wrap up here, can you leave us with a little piece of advice or lesson that you received maybe earlier in your career that still influences you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've had great managers, great leaders, other than like the pink stuff in the clouds. And I think a lot of it early on was really, you know, it's okay to make mistakes, learn from those mistakes. When I was talking about managing a large team, I'm sure I wasn't the greatest manager, but I learned through that and made some mistakes and improved upon that. I think there's also getting yourself out there, trying new things, trying new challenges. Um, if you look, if you look me up on LinkedIn, I've tried a lot of different things. You know, I've tried product management, product marketing, a little bit of like sales, pre sales qa, different companies, different sizes, different industries. It's okay to get out there, try new things, keep yourself energized and learn new things. You can always, you know, improve upon, you know, what, what you have and have fun. Like, huh, Enjoy what you do. It comes out in everything that you do, whether in your writing, how you speak, how you interact with people. So I think having that ability to communicate, try new things, have fun, um, and keep the customer in mind, I think is really important in everything you do.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Touching yourself is always good advice, although sometimes easier said than done, but I think always worth the effort.

Speaker B: Definitely. Yeah, I would agree.

Speaker A: So what's the best way for people to get in touch with you? You mentioned, uh, your LinkedIn page. Is that where people can find you?

Speaker B: Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best way. And I try and stay on top of all of the different product marketing groups, um, and trends. You see one that, you know, I should join just. Yeah, please invite me.

Speaker A: Excellent. I will be sure to put your info in the show notes. Mike, thanks so much for being a guest on the Last Word on product marketing. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast on all the major platforms and check out the YouTube channel for videos. Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker B: Bye, everyone. My pleasure. That was fun.