EPISODE 11: Michele Nieberding Shares Her Top Use Cases and Future Predictions for AI in Product Marketing

Speaker A: Core messaging doc, Core product marketing will always be there. Like, we will always need that, but how we change that for Personas, for verticals, for certain titles, whatever. I think AI will really handle the variation, creation of that and then even the delivery of that.

Speaker B: Hello, it's another episode of the Last Word on Product Marketing podcast. I'm Liza Chakowski, a fractional product marketer and consultant with Last Word Marketing and the host of this podcast. Today, my guest is Michelle Nieberding, who is director of product marketing at Treasure Data and somewhat of a marketing, uh, AI guru. Michelle has held senior product marketing roles at some of the most innovative companies in martech and customer experience, including Qualtrics, Iterable and MetaRouter. She's also an executive mentor at Cornell University and has built, uh, a strong digital presence by sharing practical, actionable tips for how product marketers can use AI to be more strategic, more creative, and more impactful in their roles. Michelle's passion is helping marketers harness the power of data and AI to deliver personalized experiences, drive revenue, and build customer trust. I'm hoping that we'll be able to delve into all of those things today. So, Michelle, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yes.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, thank you for having me. Anytime I can nerd out about AI with someone like, help me in. So this is great.

Speaker B: Excellent. That's what we're gonna do. So, yeah, to get us started. What do you think about when you think about your top three use cases, um, for AI, specifically in product marketing?

Speaker A: Yeah, gosh, I think there's so many. It's like if you have a use case or a problem or a challenge, you can probably find an AI tool for that. That being said, some that maybe I'm like, recently obsessed with one I would say is like voice of the customer or just like mining for those customer nuggets of gold. Right. That we always look for. I just remember the days like gong before it was out was like a godsend. Just to have the recordings was great. Then you could add filters, and then you could use AI insights. But I think we're getting much better and broader than that beyond just call recordings like CRM data, uh, support tickets, user reviews, G2, all those things, and finding really good ways for AI to bring all of that together so that we're just like, reviewing what our customer is saying. What are the issues with the product? What are they excited about? I have, um, an agent that pulls, like, the most potentially buy rollers, like the best testimonials That I just send to the customers and say, hey, can you approve this quote? You said it. These are your words. Can you approve or not? What a great way to do that versus, you know, bothering the CS person. Have the CS person say, no, you can't talk to my customer. And, you know, all that drama that we've all been through before, but I think from a true voice of the customer, like mining for that data has gotten really, really good with AI. Second, um, I would say is like messaging and asset generation. So I think everyone's put that into ChatGPT. Help me with messaging, help me with positioning, um, competitive research and like perplexity, right? We've all kind of done that. Um, I think what AI is doing really well is sure, it can give us a baseline or pull some competitive research maybe we hadn't considered before. Um, um. But what I'm obsessed with is the asset generation. So once you get that messaging doc, really, really good pros and cons of using ChatGPT to start that, fine, we can talk through that. But to build, like, your bill of materials or like decks or like visual elements, AI has so many cool tools to do that. And I think the really nice pairing of that is a really good messaging doc will give you really, really good materials built on AI. I've also seen messaging docs that it was literally copy and paste chatgpt into like a gamma, for example. It's like build a sales deck for, you know, a pitch deck, right? And like, it doesn't make any sense because the messaging doc wasn't good. And that's a good red flag to say, hey, maybe start back at ground zero. But I say that because the, um, speed and ability of which we can now build assets or even like battle cards, things like that has gotten so phenomenal, um, and saving me a lot of time for, you know, bothering the designer and making this tweak and, you know, updating this image, whatever it is. So that's been really great. And then I think the last one that's getting better is kind of like experimentation and analysis. So our, uh, if we're spending less time building the coveted one pagers, right? Or two pages, what we spend all of our lives doing, I think we're getting more time back to be more strategic, to test certain hypothesis. What would customers react to, like, this product? Or prioritization of a roadmap, or what pain points are we solving? If we're solving the same pain points as a competitor, how can we solve them differently? You know, things like that Like I think that gives us a lot more time to be more strategic. Come with these hypothesis and then test that. Now when it comes to like research of that. So Anna Sarvesta, she's with ServiceNow, another awesome product marketer, but she suggested uh, a cool called Evidenza, which is like AI generated user research. So it'll say, okay, if you have this kind of positioning, this product, whatever, how would users in your ICP potentially react? Now Evidenza claims that they're like 88% accurate to a human kind of research group. I'm testing that as we speak, so stay tuned for results. But I think again from like a hypothesis and testing and market research, um, we're getting better as well. So yeah, let me just dump a lot of high level concepts on you really quickly.

Speaker B: No, that's great. Um, that's really, really interesting. So you talked a little bit about experimentation. Can, can you expand on that a little more? Like is a instance of when you kind of ran an experiment, you weren't really sure what the outcome was going to be, but it went well.

Speaker A: Yeah, the good, the bad, the ugly.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'd love to know when it went well. When it didn't go so well. Like what have you found AI to be the most useful area and then where has it kind of fallen flat?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, God, the AI for stories are real. Um, just look in the news. But. Okay, well we'll talk about, we'll start with the good news. So I think it is starting to get better at personalization, like I said, and you can get to the voice of the customer faster using that in your material. So using the words that they use, like the phrases, the use cases, things like that. So using that in marketing materials helps in so many different ways. We know that it's just easier to get to now. Um, I would say also from like a personalization point. So how many times have you heard like, hey, can we, you know, verticalize everything and turn everything into industry specific or Persona specific material, things like that. I think one of the wins that I had was at Meta Router. So like a 30 person startup, right. I was the solo and founding product marketer in charge of, I mean everything, analyst relation, content generation, website, everything, you name it. Two things that I really helped me with there in terms of personalization. One, um, is just personalizing the website. So it would take way too much time for me to make industry pages or industry content. And there's a cool tool called Personality AI. Um, it's like a one man Shop. But it's like the coolest thing ever because it will personalize the webpage based on the person's title, the company, so industry or vertical that they're in and like, and so how senior they are. And it'll customize like the whole website, everything. The use case, um, oh, it'll give like key value props for that specific again, person and industry. So like, I don't have to make a million pages myself. It'll auto update everything, give them the right resources on the webpage. Like, amazing. So that was a huge win in terms of like conversion and people being like, even just like kind of the viral aspect of. I know we've talked about personalized webpages before. I mean we used to make hundreds of webpages for this and now you can update it not just again for vertical, but vertical and title and that person and what they've engaged with previously. Um, so that was a really cool win. It was just like a test, like a really, really easy to implement, um, kind of as a beta program. And that went m really, really well for our conversions and then again for just people talking about it online because they, hey, come to our website, get your page customized for you and then we have all their information, which is awesome. Um, so that's one of the cool wins, I would say flops. Um, so at the same company set meta router, we had a really, really awesome CEO and so intelligent and so like on top of the industry, but very, very humble. Like, didn't like to be super vocal on, on social media. Um, just like, you just don't necessarily want to be in the limelight. But you're a founder, right? You need to, to have that consistent, um, outreach and things. So we encouraged him to use ChatGPT to make some thought leadership, you know, text some, some social posts on LinkedIn. Um, the content itself, decent, but it just, it sounded like, you can tell it's AI, like you know, the dreaded M Dash or the Juxtapos position. Like there were things that obviously, you know, gave it away that took really good content, like a brilliant mind and turned it into like, we know this is AI. It sounds like everything else, which, um, the idea of an executive kind of social campaign, obviously, like really smart and using tools to like make someone that maybe doesn't feel as comfortable to do that. Awesome. Um, didn't turn out great because we didn't go through the process of reviewing it and refining it and making it sound more human. So we had to kind of backtrack There. But then, um, we compensated by using AI to take long videos. So whether it was internal, like our CEO talking about the vision or what he's excited about, um, and using AI to pull snippets of that, like externally facing, of course, but external snippets of him like showing that passion and showing that thought leadership, like him truly embracing what we're doing and then putting that on social, um, to kind of build him back up and you know, show that like he truly knows what he's talking about in a human way, in a really cool way. And just again, if I can take a 30 minute recording of my CEO, uh, throw it into AI and have it, you know, do the clips and do the transcripts and like all the subtitles, everything like that, like in two seconds. Heck yeah. Like, let's do it. So, um, turn kind of a flop into a win. And also not letting AI run rampant because I've had friends, this hasn't happened to me personally. Um, use AI for things like web personalization or email campaigns based on certain signals that like, have gone terribly wrong.

Speaker B: So again, sure, sure.

Speaker A: Stories are real.

Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like the more information you can feed into it, the more speed of sophisticity you can feed into it. Even if it doesn't sound great, then you could use AI to refine it. That's how I been mostly.

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker B: Using it or just to brainstorm with AI, I think is also really, really helpful.

Speaker A: Like you have to think about if, if a new hire was starting at your company, like what would you give your new hire to onboard quickly. It's like the, what knowledge base do you want to give that agent based on what you want it to do? I think yeah, that's a really good way to look at it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it obviously makes it faster for everyone to create content and run campaigns. How have you used it to think about differentiation and which platforms do you feel like are the most useful for that?

Speaker A: Ooh, yeah. So I think, um, a couple things. So there's like the messaging of something that's AI and it's also building AI thing. So there's like two, I see like two sides to this coin. So if we take um, the product, for example, there's like product market fit. Right. We all know what that is. But then there's like language market fit. Like again, are you speaking the language of your customers at the level that they're at? So if you're talking like to really technical people that like know their stuff, are you meeting them where they are in terms of like, again, the words you're using, but like the level of information or detail or like the nuances of the technical thing that they want. So I think that's just one thing to think about, is there's product market fit. It's easier for competitors to catch up. What's your language market fit? Right. Like the words that you're using to describe what you're doing. And I think, like, evidence will never go away that what customers are actually doing, the m successes that they're having, like, that will never go away. Um, but I think the other thing to think about in this world is like, where. Where are you going in this, like, adventure map? So in a world where it's easier again, to kind of catch up to certain things, when you see a competitor do something, are you just like, trying to close the gap or are you actually seeing the future and building for the future, getting caught up in, like, the hype? So, for example, um, I work at a customer data platform, a cdp, where this idea of like, composability, um, like putting puzzle pieces together is really hype. And there's, you know, a time and place for composability. But if you're just like, building around hype of what that is, you're not actually thinking about the future. And like you said, in a world where everyone's building the same content and. Right. Like, you can turn out a blog post in an hour, everyone can do that. But how are you actually proving what's possible? Um, so tools to help you actually do these things. Right. I, um, would say, um, oh my God, it's Opus Clip is the one I'm thinking of that pulls out those. It. It ranks those video clips by what they think is going to be most viral. So it listens to everything and like, ranks it for you. Um, there's another one called Retellio, um, another like, very startup company, but that will take your gong calls, your CRM, your support tickets, and pull out again what the most, like, viral testimonials are. Um, so it'll surface all, not just all the good quotes and all the goodness, but it'll actually rank it for you and tell you what is, like the strongest testimonial to then share. So some tools, like, can get to those again, gold mines faster to make the human side of things really come out in like, an easier way. Yeah, I love it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I mean, I'll share. I'll share, please. Um, yeah, so I, when I try to figure out differentiators For a company. Um, you know, I'll do my homework of like here's what I think the differentiators are and then I'll research how the competitors are differentiating and then I might feed both of those things into the AI just to find out like gut check, like how, you know, what do you think about this is my plan, critique my plan. I use it for that a lot. I find that the more homework I could do before even touching AI,

Speaker A: I

Speaker B: find that the more inputs I can give and more specificity I can give the AI, the more um, useful the um, feedback is. Yes. Right. So like, and then I also will play different platforms against each other. Um, I find that for competitor research I use Perplexity. Do you use Perplexity?

Speaker A: Oh it's like my new Google. Like anything research based is Perplexity. And if you try, if you see Comet, if you sign up for like the new release of Comet, it's like the coolest web browsing experience ever. So yes. Yeah. Perplexity. 100% cool.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so that's, that's interesting. Um, I'm going to try the other ones that you mentioned.

Speaker A: Um, though, yeah, I love these tools. I'm that so that's part of the problem of all of this. Right. There's so many and they're very specific. You know, use cases like you want to personalize your website or something for that. You want to personalize your follow up for sales or something for that. Like that is the one thing that I, I think about often. Like what, you know, in what world can someone kind of bring a lot of this together? Uh, okay, let me take a step back. There's a couple of things when we're thinking about agents. There's like tasks. So I need it to do competitive research, right. I need it to, to critique my plan of differentiation. That's like a task and then there's workflows. Like I want it to pull a competitive research weekly and send it into my slack and tell me the, you know what this means for like there's workflows that we can pull it into and I think for someone starting out um, with agents or tasks like yes, Perplexity for research chat GPT. Um, there's moments of Claude but I think the new chat GBT is gonna be better than that. Um, but yeah, start with a task but then like when you're thinking about workflows kind of mapping it out and finding what like team of agents can help you do that. So like agent mode on chat gbt can help be your like team. If there's something for like a launch and you want support with, you know, tiering the launch and then writing the copy for X, Y and Z, there's things like that. Now the one tool I will say um, that helps with my like specific launch workflow, um, it's called Alphana. Mhm A lphana. Um, but it, so I'll take a, it's, it's video to text which is interesting versus like Chachi to upload your messaging doc and you say build blog post, blah blah blah. Um, alphado will take a video. So say if there's like an internal enablement session or a product conversation about the roadmap or something like that about a launch, you put in the video and it'll spit out like your entire bill of materials. Like truly everything, the pr, the webpage, the faq, like everything. Amazing. I'm obsessed. And then there's other tools if you want to kind of validate what that spits out to make sure that you're covering the gaps that your current product doesn't have. So there's just so, so many tools. But this one's called Alpha Sense and that one will tell you, okay, it's the content you're putting out, they're actually handling the objections or the questions that your customers have that your current content doesn't. So it has like a lovely little pie chart. If here's the current content you have, here's the questions and objections you're getting from customers. Is there like, are you answering that with your content? Like is there overlap? And if not, does a new product launch help cover some of those gaps?

Speaker B: Very cool, I love it. Um, so you touched upon a little bit on how you use AI to build workflows. Do you use it to build like frameworks for go to market?

Speaker A: Yeah, this is where I feel like a dinosaur. Like I have some frameworks that like I know and love pre AI days. I have um, campaign launch documents or what we call mpi which was the new process, um, or new product implementation process. If I'm thinking about new frameworks, there's kind of like a process I guess that I follow to build a new framework with AI. I call it the five Ds. I don't know, like my brain works in mysterious ways and now let's see if I can remember them. It's ah, discover. So what like again the inputs, what are you putting in to help like get this hypothesis going for what you need the framework for? Um, deciding so what, like, what do you want it to look like? Is it a matrix? Is it a campaign? Like, what do you want that output to be? Um, designing. So give it kind of like what you want as a first draft. Um, deliver what, like actually have it make the thing and then debrief. So, like, decide what you like and don't like about it and then like, keep testing it. So I think one of the things and you've touched on this is like, um, AI is kind of lazy. Like, it stops it where it wants to stop. You can keep pushing it. Like you said, if, if you're going to be my biggest critique on, say, this new framework, tell me why this framework is good and bad. Tell me what other frameworks have been successful and like, why this one? The pros and cons of this framework versus another successful framework. Like, you can go down those rabbit holes and I encourage everyone to do. Because otherwise it'll just, it is lazy. Like, it will stop at like MVP if you will, like, minimum viable product, and it'll stop there. And the new chat GPT5 is interesting because it'll like, ask you questions. It'll ask like, maybe what's in your head before maybe you even think of it. So, like, I was, um, TMI m asking a medical question for my mom and it was like, do you want me to write, you know, questions to ask your medical provider? I was like, you know what? I didn't think I need that, but yes, actually I do. So it's, it's, it is starting to get a little smarter and like, being proactive about the next question that you may want to ask, which is cool. But yeah, go down those rabbit holes.

Speaker B: Yeah, I find that same exact thing. I'll give you an example. In my business, I, um, was looking to get new ideas about campaigns for lead generation and client acquisition and I gave it my plan and then it did exactly what you said. It said, that's a good plan. Here's some other ideas. Do you want me to put it in a three month, 90 day plan? And I had the exact same reaction you did. I was like, you know what? I would, I would really like that.

Speaker A: You know what? Definitely do.

Speaker B: Thank you, chatgpt. But you're right, it also does have, for better or worse, a bias towards positivity, like it always is complimenting you. Um, and sometimes that's not what you want. Like you said, right? You're like, no, I need you. Because if it's, uh, if it's a, you know, a client project or what have you. You're like, I don't want you to tell me that my messaging is fantastic. I want you to tell me everything that's wrong with it so that I could make this even better.

Speaker A: And you have. I mean literally, just literally put in like, be my biggest critic. Play devil's advocate. The one I tried, it was something about like, review my new homepage web copy or something. I was like, be my biggest critic. And it, it truly was like, it was, it was a little brutal. Yeah, like you went from being okay,

Speaker B: that's a little too far.

Speaker A: Chat GPT slow your role. You really hurt my feelings. Uh, no empathy with ChatGPT, but that's fine. That's why we use it.

Speaker B: It's. Yeah, exactly. Um, so have you used it for any interdepartmental relationship building in terms of, uh, working with other departments or. You know, typically? Obviously marketing and product marketing works a lot with the sales team. And on enablement, do you use it to get ideas about how to work better with those teams?

Speaker A: Yeah, some tools that we use, the Gong, for example, um, I'll explain to sales kind of what I'm doing, which is good because then one, they understand how I'm tracking their data. But then they'll proactively come to me with ideas if they think chat GBT is like creeping in, listening to do, you know to pull this insights. And they'll come to me like, I heard this and that and like that's been really good for kind of like understanding what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, for them to like be a part of that conversation. Um, the product team has actually gotten really into this. So we um, we use Glean internally, which is kind of like an internal chat GPT. So it'll pull like messages from our Slack channel, our Google Drives, things like that, which is really nice. Um, but we've built agents with within Glean, um, to do things like write up newsletters. Um, so every month you have all these like really cool features and products that shipped and you want to put that in like a monthly customer newsletter.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You have an agent that we'll take a PRD doc and technical documents and write that, that blurb. So nice. So we have all these Glean agents that do some of these tasks and our products gotten really into building their own agents and glean that like we can kind of use as this little ecosystem within again our internal database, which is really cool. So it's fun because they get excited about it. We get excited about they Know what, how like what they're doing and how we like put that into an agent to do something for what our purposes are. Um, and then finally I would say for some of the things that are more um, internal stakeholder stuff. So think like like a battle card for example or like a again follow up for a sales conversation. So one's like called Paper Flight for example which is like AI. It's actually really cool. They call it just in time learning. But it'll pull like resources during a call, right? That, that sales might be able to use or kind of like prepackages a follow up bundle of stuff for a customer. Hey, you made these comments, you asked these questions, whatever. And here's like a bundle of stuff that you should send as a follow up. Like really cool stuff. Um, or again battle cards, like updating in real time. So hey there, your competitor announced this update. Here's how you should change your battle card, right? Like there's these living breathing documents that AI can help us update that gets us um, really in the weeds with these other teams because they're the ones using it.

Speaker B: That's amazing. That's very cool. Um, so when we think about AI moving so quickly, right. What do you think we will be talking about if we were to have this conversation again in six months or a year? What kinds of capabilities do you think that um, specific to product marketing, obviously. Do you think that it's going to get even better or more interesting?

Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I think. Okay, So I think three things if even if we look ahead like six 12 months, um, one, I don't think we'll have to do as much personalization. I think agents will handle so much of that core messaging doc, core product marketing will always be there. Like we will always need that. But how we change that, ah, for Personas, for verticals, for certain titles, whatever. I think AI will really handle the variation, creation of that and then even the delivery of that. So I think agents will get to the point where it's like we know an executive at uh, like this specific exec, this person has these like tendencies or likes to get their information this way. And the agent will make that variation and deliver it very specifically to how people consume that information. I think that the delivery will become more autonomous, which I think is awesome. Like I, for me as a consumer, I'm like take all my data, take all my behaviors. If you know, I'm like walking to Marshalls for Halloween decor because I love Halloween. Like give me a discount code and I will buy More like I wow, maybe, I don't know, hot take. But I'm like, do that for me and you know, not give someone else a discount code because they have different habits, different whatever. Like I am all for it. Um, so I think that's number one. Again, like websites updating in real time right now they have some lag, but I think the buying process will become easier because AI can make those intelligent decisions. At least I hope so. Um, but you know, of course it opens Pandora's box for like being smarter about differentiation and making the right content that's being delivered and like having more human conversations. Um, so that's number one, I think the variations and the delivery of things to make the buying process easier will happen. Um, two, I don't know this is true, but I'm, I don't even know if I'm optimistic. I, but this is like, I think this might happen. So I think companies like Evidence, uh, that are using AI generated Personas or people to do market research to like again, test messaging, positioning, product changes. I do think that will get better. I don't think human will ever be out of the loop. I still think we need to have those conversations, but I think it'll get us 80% of the way where we're validating with customers and process versus kind of like starting with people as ground zero. Now, whether I love that or not, it's a different conversation. I think that's pretty probably where we're going because it's cheaper, it's easier, it's faster than doing your typical, you know, market research and interviewing a hundred people may eventually help with potentially close lost as well. Right. Like if, if there's a pattern for winning and losing deals, can something like AI generated Personas like give us that, ah, information faster to pivot faster and make conversations? There are some pros to it. Um, but I do think that kind of like agent intelligence may get better. Um, and finally, hopefully agents will make things more fun. Like I, let's have it on like a happy note, right? Like, I think things are going to have to get more interactive, they're going to have to get more immersive because no one can rely on like their blog posts anymore or like SEO to find things. I think we're gonna have to get more creative with how we have these conversations with our buyers and, and how we talk about our differentiation. I think there's a lot of fun that will come out of this when I have uh, someone that can like write my, my monthly product updates. Great. I can go focus on how I'm going to talk about those updates in like a cool way.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I think that'll, that'll be a positive thing. Okay, we're going to take a quick

Speaker B: break and when we come back, we're going to learn a little more about Michelle and her career. We are back with Michelle Nieberding, director of Product marketing at, uh, Treasured Data. Let's talk a little about your career journey and the lessons you've learned along the way. So as you look back, can you think of an example or an experience that shaped your leadership style or your approach to decision making? Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so I, I've been in B2B tech for my whole product marketing career. Um, and you see, and I would say, um, one of the things that really shaped my career, which is interesting because on the face it, it seems like such a positive thing, but looking back I'm like, hm, I learned a lot from this. Um, so I was at a company that we had a very, very, very hands on cmo, like super hands on, which again, like clients are like, oh my God, that's so amazing. You get executive input. Like, this is awesome. The marketing team was probably like 30, 40 people. So it was a big team. Um, also a lot for the CMO to manage because she wanted to review every single thing that went out, every single word, whatever. Um, um, I think for us it became almost like a bottleneck because, you know, one, there's so many things to review, you're just in a queue. And two, like, you want to believe that your, your executive leader has trust in you and empowers you to like, make decisions and, and do things and try things. And I think it became challenging for the team to feel empowered to like make those decisions when, you know, at, uh, some times there would be like a pivot that, a conversation that happened at the executive level that we didn't have context for. We weren't aware of like other conversations. And so things would pivot really quickly and we didn't know why. So we had a launch where like the entire messaging focus pivoted. And um, we were about to know a couple weeks out at the time and we're like, whoa. And this is pre AI, right? So we're doing everything manually. Um, and it was just like whiplash, right? But again it was like there were good intentions, there was. The right conversations were had at the top. It was just like whiplash for us, those kind of executing underneath. And I think what I learned from that in terms of My leadership style is like, I too am like very type A. I am a little bit of a control freak.

Speaker B: I.

Speaker A: It's been challenging for me to, to let go of the reins a little bit and like, again, empower people to, you know, to have the trust and like, I know people can do things. Do I. Does my control freak side kick in? For sure. But having gone through that and knowing like what I want teams to do moving forward, it's like, I'll give you the support, um, and, and the resources, everything you need. But like, you come to me and raise your hand when something is an issue. I trust you know that you can, can do things. So, um, again, a lot of learnings and I empathize with that leader because again, I'm very type A. Just ask my, my poor husband, like our wedding be very, you know, we had a planner, but of course I had to do everything. Like I said, I get it. Like, I totally get it. We have really smart people that know what they're doing and I have a lot to learn from everyone as well. So definitely a good, A good learning.

Speaker B: That's a good way to think about it or to try to over overcome that when it becomes detrimental. But ultimately, I think people in product marketing have to have somewhat of an attention to detail or really, this might not be the career for you. Right.

Speaker A: Let me know how it goes.

Speaker B: Right, Exactly.

Speaker A: So maybe not.

Speaker B: Um, but no, that's, that's interesting. Um, have you ever received any bad advice or conventional wisdom that you just don't find rings true for you in your life? Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so I. Two things I, I guess I struggled with and I, I enjoyed it. First one was like, just to ship it. Like just ship it. Just do it. Like, we'll iterate later. Um, at first I was like, oh, that's great. We're moving so fast. This is great. But a lot of times you only get one chance at a first impression. So I've worked at a lot of companies where we're very enterprise focused and if you just ship it and you make the wrong first impression, it's very hard to get back into those accounts or to like connect with the right people when you've already maybe not said things the right way or that wasn't phrased or positioned in the correct way. So, um, while I do think teams should move fast, like I do believe like 80 is the new 100. This idea of like to ship it, we'll iterate later, like just go, go, go with a little. Maybe not the best advice the era

Speaker B: of move fast and break things is over because a lot of things got broken and they did not get put back together.

Speaker A: You're like, I did not know that could shatter into more.

Speaker B: Right, Exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah. But again, like, you think you hear these things. You're like, cass is great. And you're like, oh, oh, no. Like, uh, when things go wrong, they go really wrong.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I definitely am someone who has a bias towards action. Um, you do as well. Um, but, yeah, I like the 8020 rule much better than move fast and break things.

Speaker A: China shop. Yeah. Like, what. What is the cost of rebuilding that china shop?

Speaker B: Like, exactly.

Speaker A: Talk about roi. We're all triggered. It's fine.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I like to ask question about how everyone. A question about how their, um, things they like to do in their personal life has a positive impact on their professional life. Is there anything that you do outside of work, maybe for fun that you've noticed that helps you do your. Your job better?

Speaker A: I've gotten really into golf. Um, I think learning anything as an adult's very hard. Golf is, like, particularly hard, um, because of the patience aspect. So I'm, like, very action oriented, like, very competitive, very type A. It was very humbling to be learning golf. I've been playing for the last two or three years now. Um, and the learning curve was wild. I was like, I'm not good at this. I don't want to do this. I'm used to being good and competitive and. And athletic generally in golf. It's just been a very, very humbling sport. And so, um, to learn that as an adult, to take the time for the, you know, the. The very specific way to hit a ball and all the different clubs and, like, all the things you have to learn about golf has really taught me patience. And the end goal, you know, is worth that journey. So when you're working really hard towards something, whatever it is, a launch, you know, health goals, whatever it is, like that payoff, that satisfaction of working hard to do something is so worth it. So in those moments that you're like, this sucks, and I hate it, like, keep pushing through. Because now, you know, Sundays, I spend five hours playing golf with my husband, and I love it. Like, I am obsessed. So, yes, golf has been a fun, interesting journey.

Speaker B: That's amazing. Um, yeah. It probably also exercises, you know, a different part of your brain.

Speaker A: Ah, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Thank God.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I guess it gets lonely on that side. I don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah. So as we wrap up, what is the best way for people to get in touch with you. Is it via LinkedIn?

Speaker A: Yep, yep. LinkedIn all the way. Yeah, I'm always lurking, so feel free to reach out.

Speaker B: Excellent. We'll be keeping a lookout for your AI type tips. So the thank you so much Michelle for being a guest on the Last Word on Product Marketing. This has been a lot of fun and really educational, particularly about all your great tips that you share here. I'll be sure to round those up and put them in the show notes so people can explore some of those platforms on their own. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast on all the major platforms and check out the YouTube channel for videos. Thank you so much for listening.