Drive Impact Through Systems Like an AI-First PMM

Product marketers everywhere are feeling this. Product teams are shipping faster than ever. It has dramatically accelerated how quickly features get built, tested, and released. But while product velocity has fundamentally changed, many PMMs are still operating on the same quarterly rhythms we've relied on for years, and many PMMs feel like they're constantly reacting instead of actually driving strategy.

Don't worry, we have a fix for you. With that, today it is my pleasure to have Steve Schuler on the show. Steve has spent his career at the leading edge of a number of technology trends like mobile marketing, customer data infrastructure, and now how AI-powered products and systems affect our everyday use. Today, he helps product marketers rethink how they operate in an AI-first world with a focus on building systems that scale knowledge instead of simply producing more content.

If you've come across his writing on LinkedIn, you'll know he has a knack for turning complicated AI conversations into practical frameworks that PMMs can actually use. Steve, it's amazing to have you on the show El, thanks so much. It's wonderful to be here All right. So before we actually dive into this big topic today, let's bring everyone up to speed.

You were recently at a company, and you noticed this trend, as many of us have experienced it firsthand, this trend where product marketing teams are struggling to keep up with product because AI lets us move at the speed of light. So tell me more about that moment Yeah. Um, I think there were really three things that I picked up on. Uh, number one is that product and engineering teams can ship today in a way that they've never been able to before.

they're like talking about things like weekly release cadences and six-month roadmaps instead of, you know, year roadmaps or two-year roadmaps. But PMM teams are still often working on a quarterly rhythm because that's what we've been used to, um, and that's sort of what we've been drilled to deliver to sales. I think the second sy- you know, symptom of this, uh, challenge that I've seen is that the best customer intel is now just trapped in all these disconnected tools. You might have, support tickets from customers in one place.

Product's got a notion that they maintain that has all their interview transcripts and product information. Sales is in Gong, and then there's this, like, loose information in Slack that's just all over the place, um, and it's hard to pull it together. and then really the last thing is, uh, you know, marketing teams themselves, we've got this incredible power now to create more content so quickly. But, uh, what I've seen is some teams creating sloppy content faster.

and that's not the answer. Uh, we've all seen these posts on LinkedIn that you know are written by AI, and it's just such a turnoff. Uh, and I think that we can all do a much better job. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, I, uh, so much of what you're saying resonates so much with me because I feel like for product marketers, I see two really big, I don't know, maybe symptoms, as you were saying, is part, is, is what I'm trying to say here. But first and foremost, it's the stress of keeping up with the cadence of release. And then second, now we have this large volume of releases, whether they're small feature releases or larger actual product releases, and we are the ones who are responsible for communicating that to our customers.

And while AI has accelerated our ability to do it, that doesn't mean that the humans who are receiving the information, our customers, can keep up with the volume of content that's coming at them. So the answer isn't produce more content because I don't think our customers can… Like, they're, they're already maxed out. They've been ma- we've been maxed out for years, so, so we can't just do more. So our jobs as product marketers have ac- has actually become a bit more interesting because now we, as you pointed out, we have to be a little bit more thoughtful with how we're packaging up all this information.

Um, and yes, using AI not to produce, like, the sloppiness, but I think that's kind of… I don't think it's because PMMs want to. I think we've just been in reaction mode, and I'm trying to keep my job. I'm trying to keep product happy, my stakeholders happy. I just want, I just gotta put something out there, so I'm gonna use AI and just push it.

And so I think that's how we got here. So, um, but the good news is, especially with all the chatter that we've seen across various marketing communities, we know it's a problem. We wanna get out of it, so how do we do it? Yeah.

Uh, I, I totally feel what you're describing. It, it was, you know, it was like being on your back foot. It was like, feeling like you have to be in reaction mode, all of that, right? It's just like, oh my gosh, I have to keep up with all this stuff.

So like, I just like paused one day and I took a breath and I was like, all right, I gotta go back to basics here. Like, how do you take on any product marketing challenge? And so, I'd given some thought to this like a few years ago, actually, even before, this, uh, AI stuff, um, you know, really exploded. And, there was a group called Product School.

They're in San Francisco, and they do all different kinds of classes for people that wanna learn about project management. And they reached out to me and they said, "Hey, come teach these product managers and emerging entrepreneurs about product marketing. What do they need to know?" So I came up with a framework, right?

PMMs love a good framework. I was like, I need I need my own framework. So I came up with this framework, 3D product marketing, right? Amazing.

Brilliant, right? Um, well, the three Ds are, uh, data, decision, and delivery. And, uh, data is all about collecting market information, right? What are your customers saying?

What are your competitors doing? The decisioning is all about, hey, what's the messaging, positioning, go-to-market strategy? And then the delivery is, how does this come to life in a one-sheet, on a website, in an email, at an event? but I think the challenge with that for a long time was that we spent so much time on the data collection and the data and the, the just project delivery that we didn't spend as much time on the decision-making.

And that's how I think we go from being on our back foot to being on our front foot and offering more to sales and product. We use the AI for the data collection and the delivery, and we use what we're great at, the decision-making, and get to actually spend more time there, um, because we have these tools that can do a lot of the rote work much more quickly. So in that moment when you realized that you had you know, you have your framework and you're in that moment yourself as a product marketing leader, you've got your stakeholders who are like, "Move faster, move faster, move faster."

how did you actually - I guess, like, and walk us through your thinking around, like, what you decided to build that's incorporating this, 3D framework that sou-sounds like it's kind of your fundamental, philosophy as a product marketer. Um, so talk through what that looks like. Yeah. that's the guiding philosophy.

But where AI comes in here and where I think, uh, you know, we can really accelerate work is, is building, like an always-on intelligent system. and the idea is that this is collecting that information, it's synthesizing it, it's alerting you when there's something that you need to know about, and then it's improving too when it gets a signal that there's a trend that's popped up in gong calls and all of the people in your, you know, key persona have started saying this one thing that needs to be incorporated back into the persona docs that you have, so that the next time you write an email, that new sort of important thing for that audience is incorporated.

Um, so it's about wiring all these different things up and creating this loop. right? Still employing the, the three Ds, but, uh, doing it in a really modern way with AI tools at the center of it. Can I just say that I love that you didn't start with writing prompts?

Like, I feel like AI has moved so quickly that now, uh, I hate to make this analogy, but it's almost like, it's almost like the old school version of like, you know how younger generations will poke fun at their elders a little bit for, you know, not knowing how to do things. I feel like now if you're a marketer who's, like, still just writing prompts, it's kind of like, "Who even are you? Get out of here. You can't even save a PDF."

You know what I mean? It's like one of those type of yeah, We're, we're not, we're not gonna okay boomer this. We're, we're yeah, yes. They… I didn't want to say it, but, but yes, exactly.

But it's moving so quickly that now it's, um, doesn't matter. Just take your age out of it. It doesn't matter. If you're just, if you're behind, you're behind.

so okay, you're starting with the knowledge, which I think is so smart, and actually let, let me take that back. You're starting with your framework, your philosophy as a marketer. and then, with that comes the knowledge component. So once you build the system, like, what actually changed for you as you put the system in place and started putting into action?

Yeah. Well, I mean, we, we can talk about how to build it in a second, but, the results that we were really looking for was, like, faster execution, like for PMMs. So, like, make our lives easier. better consistency, right?

That messaging doc that you spent all that time slaving over, like, does that message come through in the fourth email in the sequence that the BDR sends out? it, you know, you can help, uh, you can help do that. You get better alignment across teams, right? Yes, maybe you talk to sales, but, are the CSNs, are the SEs, uh, you know, all these other stakeholders, are they saying the same thing?

you know, do you build stakeholder trust? you know, is, is product inviting you to more meetings because you have a unique view on the market? and, uh, are you doing, like, less redundant work? you know, you're not writing the same email over and over again.

You're, customizing it now, right? You're writing it for this vertical, then the next one, then the next one. and, uh, you're, you're doing things that, uh, you know, really add value that we never had the power to do before because you can deliver so much faster Yes, and I just want to reiterate something that I realized as you were talking, and this relates back to your framework, right? Like you said at the start here that the whole purpose of this was not to do more work, not to produce a more vol- a larger volume of work, but to spend more time in that decision part of the job, and now you can do that.

So it's, it's trading off where you're putting your energy. so I just wanted to call that out. That was a, a big takeaway for me as you were talking Yeah, absolutely. Um, and, and like, I mean, just for me, like that's the part of the job I love.

That's why I started doing this. That was what people promised me. Oh, PMM, it's so strategic. And then I'm on like, you know, you know, after work writing the one sheet and you're just like, this does not feel strategic.

Um, but, uh, but, but this is how I think you, you get some of that, you get some of that leverage back is, uh, you build the system. Uh, the system helps you abstract away some of the things that used to take a long time, and now you can be more thoughtful and you're being, uh, you know, more well informed because you have a broader view of the market Yes, exactly. Okay, so I'm sure there are PMMs listening right now who are thinking, "Okay, I really want this." So let's turn this into a playbook.

we will role play for a second and assume that you are my PMM coach, and I want to become an AI first PMM, and I'm trying to build up that system. What's step one? Where do I get started on this? Yeah.

again, it doesn't start with writing a prompt. What it actually starts with is what I would call mapping your knowledge foundation. So just like think about your organization and all the places that information about your customers, your competitors, and market trends actually lives. it's Gong, it's Slack, it might be Zendesk if you use them for support.

Uh, I mentioned, you know, product teams working in Notion. it's the customer interviews that are hidden in Zoom recordings on some G Drive. All of this stuff is out there, it's in your organization, and the first thing I would recommend anyone to do is to actually, you know, think about what they have access to and kind of map it out, um, before taking any next steps. I think that's a really good step to do even if you're not building an AI, um, model because it's a step, especially if you're, like, starting somewhere new, it's a step that I think lot of marketers forget to take, and then you have resources and that you just forget about or don't know that you have access to.

So great idea. Got it. Okay, step one, map all of the potential data sources or places where knowledge could be hiding inside your organization. What's next?

Uh, yeah, still not writing prompts. next? thing to do is talk to stakeholders. and, uh, right.

I mean, it's, it's business. You gotta have the relationships with the folks, uh, and you need to understand what do the product managers need? Where do they feel like they, uh, you know, don't have a view into what competitor X is doing? Um, what does sales need?

Which, which emerging trend are they following, um, but don't know enough about? the demand gen team and your own marketing organization, right? Do they need to know, uh, what's working, what topics are, are trending right now? Uh, you can help them with that.

Brand might be thinking about what the persona cares about. and, uh, even customer success orgs, you know, they, they wanna know how does the product that we're trying to upsell, uh, relate to things that my customer cares about? Um, and I think all those things are, are things that, um, you can pull from that knowledge base that we were just talking about, but you need to ask and find out from all these different stakeholders, uh, what they actually need in that moment I love this, and I'm gonna add up a little personal experience here that's not necessarily related to, AI, but I think it could be.

So when I was at Cisco, a ton of stakeholders, so many stakeholders, I couldn't possibly remember all of them, so I had to make … There's so many, and I'm sure it's like that at many companies, but I was very overwhelmed with how many stakeholders I had at, at Cisco. So I literally made a table, like a spreadsheet, that had everything that you're saying. It had all my stakeholders. It had the things that they cared about, the things that they wanted to learn, the things that they wanted to know, obviously who they were.

It had so much information on it, but I didn't keep it to myself. So for example, like when I met with my product stakeholder or my demand gen stakeholder, I showed them the whole table so that they knew what I was doing with all of my stakeholders, and I felt like that level of transparency, it earned trust, like they knew what I was… It let each individual stakeholder know, first of all, that I was managing so many stakeholders. So I was given some grace when I needed it. But two, they knew that I was solving for something pretty complex.

and then, uh, what I could imagine, how I could imagine this being adapted for something like what you're doing is adding in, you know, some column related to, you know, what we hope to get out of this with AI or whatever, whatever we're, we're building with AI so that we can be a little bit more proactive and feel more like we're doing it as a team, not just I'm delivering something to them. so just a little tip. That's something what I would do. Would you suggest that I do that, or is there anything that you would add to that type of I think that's a wonderful idea, especially, um, in large organizations, but also in smaller ones, because, e-even at a company that might be, you know, 300 people, 200 people, the number of different departments and teams and sub-teams that are asking for a PMM's time in one way or another gets big pretty quick.

Um, I think we've all experienced that. So, uh, yeah, map it out, uh, and then add that column, right? Hey, what do they need as an output of this system? What do they wanna know more about?

and then those become your, your first early wins that build that credibility, so then you get that seat at the table? and help with the strategic decision-making. Yes, I love that. Um, so step one is map the, the knowledge sources.

Step two is map the people, the stakeholders. What is step three? So, uh, next step I would say is to start building the system. Um, but I started in a very specific spot, right?

If we go back to that 3D product marketing, the second thing we're talking about here is like these decisions, and I don't think we always talk about some of the decisions that we make using that term, but it's like, hey, what's our brand voice? Who are our personas and what do they care about? What's our ICP? Um, which verticals are we playing in and, uh, what matters to them?

What are the key trends in their industries? And so all of these become what I call golden docs, and that ends up being the knowledge base that all of your AI answers are pulled from. And if that knowledge base is complete and informed, um, from all of this live information that's coming in and from your team and your peers and partners putting thought into, for example, what that brand voice is and making it really, uh, specific to you and your customers, now you've got, the foundation for AI outputs that are highly relevant in your voice, and that you can produce quickly and easily.

I love that you said that. Um, and then I'm gonna share an insight that I have, and I hope this is, is validating for you, too. You are maybe the fourth or fifth of my podcast guests who has talked about building some kind of AI system, and when we t- start talking about how we build it, this is the first thing they say. They say to have - I've had another guest call it a manifesto.

I had another guest call it, um, she called it her, like, messaging house, but it was basically this, there, it's everything that you just described. It's the, brand guidelines. It's the persona documents. It's the market research.

It's the source that you want your AI system to pull from in order to reduce hallucinations and, you know, all that good stuff. So I'm seeing that as a trend for product marketers, and I really, I just, it's, and it's, I'm especially noticing it from all-star product marketers like yourself who you understand how product marketing works. You're an expert in your field, so you're still doing the product marketing work. You're just using AI to do it sharper and not necessarily do it faster, but to trade off where you're spending your efforts.

Yeah, and I, I'm encouraging people to spend time on this step, right? this is where you wanna put that thought in. Um, and if you do wanna like, you know, look good in front of your technical stakeholders, the term that I've heard used for this is a RAG database RAG stands for Retrieval Augmented Generation, which in plain English basically just means when I tell Claude to write a, you know, one sheet, it retrieves the information from the set of knowledge docs that I've created the RAG database from the RAG database.

So if you wanna tell your stakeholders that you're creating a RAG-powered knowledge base, this is what it Here you go. That's a good tip. okay. Give me now some examples, like once you actually, you do the PMM work of building out the persona documents and … Actually, I have a question on that real quick.

When you're building out those core documents, I'm just gonna reiterate what I think you said. You talked about persona docs, ICP docs. Um, are there specific things that you would always include in those golden docs, or does it change depending on the company? Uh, I, I think those are relevant to almost every PMM job I've had.

The, the other couple things that I would add, is certainly the product documentation and messaging. So like your PMM messaging doc that you create, the PRD that the product team creates, those should be in there as well. and then I've had a lot of success, putting into that knowledge base what good looks like. So like, what's an example of your best performing content?

which was the email that got the most opens? What's the social post that got the most clicks? Put that in there. That's a really good idea.

And then put in a couple examples of what bad looks like too. Could be your own stuff, could be stuff that, you know, you found online, but, I find some of the AI tools I use in particular are great at, you know, me giving it something and saying, "Hey, this, this sounds terrible. It sounds like it was written by AI." And then it'll be like, "You're absolutely right.

This was written by AI, and here are the things I'm not gonna do. You know, fewer em dashes and, um, I'm not gonna phrase things that way." And it'll, it'll come up with rules on its own about how it's supposed to write, and then that, you know, stays in the system forever. Um, and your outputs just get that much better It's a really good idea.

okay. So quick question. When you're developing out some of those - I'm gonna, I'm gonna, we're gonna come back to the AI, workload in a minute. But, just speaking to some of those foundational, the golden documents as you were describing, are there any tools that you use to create those golden documents?

Like, are there, databases, customer surveying tools, market research tools that are kind of like your go-to preferred tools to try to create those? Or i- are you starting very much from scratch where you're using first-hand, data like customer interviews and that kind of stuff? Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, I always love a good customer interview, but, uh, that's where I think that things like the Gong transcripts and the product team, you know, Zoom calls that are on the G Drive and, you know, the persona doc, can start to get fed by those sources.

And what you wanna do is get information. In the most basic form, it can just be like, "Hey, let's, comb through all these things. Let's find every time, uh, we have a conversation with a CTO and what are they talking about? What do they care about?

Hey, AI, help me synthesize this." And then that's something that, you know, at some point you can wire in and it can update automatically, but you don't have to do that. You can just copy and paste. and it's great at looking across 1,000 Gong calls and, uh, a bunch of disparate, uh, things on G Drives and then pulling out trends.

Read them yourself, think through whether they make sense, pressure test them with your peers, but then put them in that persona doc and now every time you write an email to a CTO, it's gonna draw off of that. and, you know, it'll just make it resonate with your audience that much more, and hopefully that leads to things like, you know, more click-throughs and, and more pipeline eventually. Yeah. I'm gonna, uh, repeat, uh, something you said, and that's to pressure test it yourself, read it for yourself.

I feel like that's the decision D Exactly. Yes, Yes Like apply your judgment. This is like - D-don't let the AI take away like the fun part of the job. you know, get this information, apply your own critical thinking, Right.

Everyone listening to this podcast is super smart, I guarantee you. listen to your gut, uh, you know, share it with your peers, uh, and then codify it. Put it in that persona doc, and then use that as the foundation for all of your launch materials when the time is right Right. Exactly.

okay, so coming back to this AI system that you built, can you give us some examples of what kind of deliverables you were able to crank out? Yeah, absolutely. so I'll, I'll tell you one story, then I'll list a couple other things. But, um, probably the earliest win that I had, uh, when I started to experiment with this stuff, and maybe the easiest agent to set up was, uh, something that I called a real-time sales enablement agent.

And basically, what it was, uh, was, you know, a couple years worth of competitor, uh, battle cards, different trainings we had done at like things like sales kickoff and stuff like that. And it had great information. It had the objection handling, the trap setting questions. It had information about how our competitors tried to seed FUD with our clients, right?

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt about our own product, um, and how to answer those things. Even more technical things, "Hey, you know, if you encounter this, uh, competitor, talk about this architecture because that's how we stack up to them." All that stuff was in there, but like, it was buried in a system somewhere. People had to go look at the deck.

Maybe good say slide, slide number 28 of a Yeah. deck. Yeah. Exactly.

You know, maybe, maybe the best salespeople read it. Maybe of those best salespeople, a couple of them used it. but what we did was we just took all this information, we put it into, uh, NotebookLM, which is a free Google tool. Almost everyone here that's using Google Docs probably has access to it.

And we just said, "Hey, you know, this is your, uh, knowledge base, all of this information. We're gonna train the sales team how to use this." And then sales could just go there literally on a live call with a prospect and be like, "Oh boy, this competitor just came up. What's a trap-setting question I should ask right now?"

And it would just give them the answer in the chat live while they were on the phone. And the usage of those docs just became so much more valuable because we changed the format, that people were using it in. it's amazing. And it was like overnight, um, you know, I had people being like, "Oh man, I didn't know we had this info.

That agent's so great. Why didn't we have this before?" And I was like, "Oh my God, we've had this for years. How can you say that?"

But, but you gotta meet people where they are. and you know, maybe someone was a new sales rep or maybe, you know, they were, you know, getting coffee during the sales kickoff when, you know, this section came up or whatever, and they, and they just missed it. And, um, and now they had access to it in a way that they never did before. And what we saw, you know, as a result was moving, folks from, uh, stage one to stage two more quickly.

It accelerated deal velocity because instead of being like, "Hey, you know, let me get back to you about that," or like the competitor comes up and then you follow up with an email a few days later, it's like, no, it's right here. I can address it on the call. And it did make things go more quickly And you know what's really cool? That's just one agent.

Just one. What are the other ones? Yeah. I mean, I-I - to give you just a couple examples.

Another one, um, that was really successful was a launch agent. and so, like, every PMM probably has that, doc with all the rows, like when we have a big launch, like, you know, oh, it's a tier one launch, like, what's everything on the checklist? And, uh, we just trained an agent to say, like: "Hey, uh, when we have a big launch, we need, uh, three social posts, we need a blog post, we need a press release, and, uh, we need web page copy," and just said: "Okay, draw off of all these things in the knowledge base.

This is the persona we're going after. you know, this is the information you have. Here's the PRD about the product. you write this stuff."

And it can spin that up fast. And now you've got a pretty good first draft of about 12 assets that probably would've taken someone two weeks to write, and then, you know, spend time editing it Or more. right? If they're busy, you know, maybe they don't get to it.

but you've got that stuff immediately, and you can start socializing it. And then, you know, it totally shifts the dynamic because you go to product, you know, you get this output, you tweak a couple things, and then you go, "Hey, you know, here's all the stuff that I think we should send out. Give me your feedback." And you're doing that a month before launch.

It's not the night before, and they're saying, "I don't have time," and then they don't disagree with it, you know, or then they disagree with it and they, they wanna change things, and everyone's kinda getting nervous and frazzled. it just changes that dynamic, um, when you can produce that stuff so quickly. so I think that was a great one. And another one I'll just plug is an analyst relations agent.

you know, taking all the information, you know, that your SEs have probably stored somewhere in their own, like, SE Google Drive file, and then, uh, scraping all of the, pages on your doc site, and putting that into an analyst relations agent just allows you to fill out those analyst RFI questions so much faster. and you're doing that, you're, you're vetting those answers, you're sharing them with everyone, but you get that first draft so much more quickly, and then you can spend a lot more time talking about what should our strategy be going into this call, instead of spending all the time just, like, writing answers to 200 questions about whether you have one feature Yes.

Oh my gosh, I bet there is a PMM crying happy tears right now imagining using something like this because hours and hours and hours can be spent just finding the information you need to fill out those questions, let alone like writing them in a manner that you feel like is perfect for the RFI and, uh, it's just, it's, um, can - it's incredibly tedious. And, but to your point, like spending the time, it's again back to the d- the decision D, talking about the strategy, like a shift in where you're in, in efforts, not more work, a shift in efforts, which I, I just really love that it works so And I, we haven't mentioned this yet, but I think a, a key piece of that is that when PMM continues to own that decision-making, people talk about, "Oh, is AI gonna replace jobs," right?

Like, this is where knowledge workers can't be replaced, right? We can accelerate what we're doing, but then, uh, by taking ownership of the decision-making process and bringing all those stakeholders together, you actually create more power for yourself. This is how AI, you know, enhances our abilities, not replaces us Yep. Oh, 100%, I could not agree more.

Okay, so talk to me a little about adoption for all of this. Like, are you the, uh, you talked a little bit about with, uh, the sales enablement example, which is an incredible, like, you know, overnight success in terms of adoption. But is there anything else that you would recommend, just in general as you're spinning up some of these types of agents, how to ensure that our stakeholders or whether it's, um, I mean, obviously, if you're building it for yourself, you're gonna use it, but if you're building something that you're gonna share with other stakeholders, you know, how can you try to ensure adoption?

Yeah. I think this is another thing we know we're supposed to be doing, but we don't always have the time because we're focused on like writing the nth version of the, you know, email or the tear sheet. and so it's, it's just like start small, try to show value quickly. Don't try to build the perfect system.

Um, just build something that delivers a little bit of value to one group, create a small win, get their feedback. How'd it go? You know, do you like using it this way? How could it be better?

and that just starts to build trust. And once you have a little bit of trust, you know, you'll, you'll deliver more and more and you'll be able to build on it. And if you do get stuck, now you've got the sales team saying, "Oh, you know, I want more stuff like that. Um, we'll commit some of our resources to help you build out this system," right?

know, "We'll get, we'll get other teams involved. We'll, we'll, uh, advocate for you when you ask for resources to help build something more complicated." and then, you know, just show up to their meetings. Put the, put the agent where they are.

If they live in Slack, put it there. If they're all using ChatGPT, build it there. all that kind of stuff just enhances your credibility, um, and creates those early wins that build momentum. I'm coming back to the, the stakeholder table or stakeholder map that we talked about in the second step, and I'm like imagining another column of like, where do they hang out?

Is it Slack? Okay, got it. Like, Yes. Yes.

that's where and then I, I just think it's another place where, like, time frees up too, right? It's like I never had time to go to all the sales meetings, right? Every sales leader, the mid-market leader has one meeting, the enterprise leader has another meeting. then, like, the EMEA team has another meeting, and it's like, I don't have time to go to all this stuff.

But, like- Sure … if you're building things that much faster, maybe it does free up some time to, to build more relationships, and I think that's another area that we probably under-invest in as PMMs. But, uh, using these tools the right way can really change that dynamic Absolutely. And some, some things that you were saying I feel like is leading us nicely into what I was gonna ask next, and that is, how do I make sure that, like, the momentum here continues, with some of these stakeholders?

Yeah. I - so I had a mentor one time that told me, "You have to market your marketing." and sh-she said at the time, I'll, um, I'll remember she's like, "Our CNO - C-CEO does not know what marketing is or does. Like, I have to teach them."

and even if you have a, a CEO or a sales leader that appreciates marketing, you still have to teach them what you're doing. Uh, so I think it's about sharing your wins. I think it's about demoing new capabilities. I think it's about continuing to gather feedback, um, and just become your own, like, internal marketer.

Promote this stuff. When, you know, they do the monthly company all-hands, like, put your name in the hat to stand up there and show off your real-time sales agent. You know, the engineers are gonna wanna see that. Even if they never use it themselves, they'll think it's cool.

and, uh, you know, you'll get some well-deserved recognition for building something Absolutely. And one thing here that I've personally had success with is just letting your pride for your work show through in your emotions. Like, if you're proud of something, like, talk about it. You know?

Like, evangelize it for yourself and show your enthusiasm for it. Um, I think it, it can become infectious if you let it. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we're, we're marketers. We should be passionate about our products and the companies that we work for Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, let me recap the playbook that I think I heard from you.

So step one was to do the knowledge mapping of all of the sources, and step two was a stakeholder mapping or some kind of, um, process to ensure you had got all your stakeholders. And then step three was to actually build the system. And then step four was I think like a feedback loop, get feedback, see if this… Is this - Are we on the right track? Are we getting the right things?

Is this the quality that we want it to be? And then step five is to market your marketing to socialize with your stakeholders from step two. Yeah Anything else you'd add or change? You got the list exactly right.

Um, the thing I'd add is that I, I feel like the, the marketers that are winning with AI are not the ones that are using more tools, Right, It's the ones building a system that just quiets the chaos and delivers real results Right, so that you can spend more time on the decisions part of Yep. 3D framework. Yeah I love that. Okay, last question on this topic for you, Steve.

If you had one piece of advice for a product marketer who is trying to pull off something like this, what would it be? Yeah. Um, really spend your time on those golden docs. Uh, when I've gotten those really dialed in, that's when I get the best outputs.

and then, you know, with the launch system, you, you, you have a new product, and the emails and content and web copy that come out of it, are, are really good and you don't have to, you don't have to rewrite it, when you get that. A- and I, I think, uh, one thing as these systems scale is to consider hiring like an operations PMM or recruiting someone from IT or another department that's more technical, that can help you get unstuck with some of this stuff. Uh, you, you really do wanna spend your time on those golden docs and not on, uh, becoming an expert on how to connect MCP servers or debugging Python scripts I am so glad you said that because I feel like there's been an ongoing debate about that specifically.

Mm. Um, that mean that I've seen at least in a lot of the online circles that I've been in for marketing. So I'm so glad you said that. And just overall, this was such a fantastic case study and story.

It's very inspiring. It makes me want to go out and like build more workflows and see what I can put together. Yeah, so I can spend more time on the fun part, the strategy. 100%.

Well, I hope everyone listening, uh, is equally as inspired and, um, let's, let's, let's do it. Let's do a, a little PMM renaissance here So good. I love it. okay, so now I'd love to transition to the second segment of our show, which is the messaging critique.

It's so fun. This is where, as product marketing experts, we get to analyze real world messaging. And the fun part is, as my guest, Steve, you get to pick the company that we look at. So some quick ground rules.

One, ideally you pick a company whose customers you know pretty well so that it's a fair critique. I can't critique messaging on a company that I know nothing about their customers. Um, and then, um, we're gonna talk about what's standing out, what did the PMM do really well, what's something we wish the PMM would've considered differently. And then if you were their PMM coach, like, how would you help them take it to the next level?

so tell me, who are we starting with today? The company that comes to mind for me, uh, or I guess the brand I should say, is Peacock I love it. Tell me more Uh, so you might know this, right? Peacock is the streaming service from NBC Mm-hmm.

I think I only signed up just so I could get The Office. Yes, exactly. So, like I, I actually love it. I, I, I love all the stuff they have on there.

I, I watch Saturday Night Live, I watch The Office. reruns. I watched the World Cup in Spanish the last couple months. It was great.

I, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a good service. It really is. but, uh, I think it's pretty confusing how it fits into the larger picture of what that company's doing Okay, so what's standing out really well that the PMM team is doing? Or like maybe like give us a quick run-through of like what their current messaging is today Well, I, I, I think that's the problem is that the current messaging is A bit of a mess.

and, uh, I just remember watching the Olympics maybe, uh, like over the winter, and there were just four brands that were constantly competing about who was actually presenting the Olympics. It was Comcast, which is like the parent company. It was Xfinity, which is the, like, internet provider. Then it was NBC, and then it was Peacock, and just the whole thing kind of gave me whiplash.

Yeah. A bit of an identity crisis. Like, who are you? Who are we Yeah, exactly.

And I, I mean, for me, NBC carries a lot of trust and cultural significance. Like, I grew up watching shows on that network. Um, you know, we talked about "The Office." They still have things that, you know, I associate with them, uh, you know, like the Olympics, like basketball, like "The Office" reruns, like "Saturday Night Live."

and I'm just like: Why is Peacock spending billions trying to like, build a new brand when they have this NBC, or, or Universal, you know, as part of it as well that makes the movies? Like, these are great brands that are widely regarded. Why do we have to try to create this new thing at, like, great expense and effort? Right.

Absolutely. So if you were their PMM coach, how would you advise them on taking it to the next level? I, I mean, if I was in charge of Comcast, like I, I don't think I'd spend another dollar on the Peacock brand. I'd try to fold it into NBC or figure out something else to do with it.

But, uh, honestly, it, it even goes like a little bit further than that for me. I think they're missing out on a really big opportunity. when I look at like the media landscape more broadly, consumers are buying into these ecosystems, right? Like I, I'm an Apple person, right?

I have Apple TV, I have Apple Music, I Disney person. Yeah. totally. Yeah.

right? Um, right. I have - I buy things on Amazon. I shop at Whole Foods, right?

It's all this stuff, and I just feel like Comcast has all these pieces, right? The internet, smart home hubs, they make movies, they make TV shows, but it's, It's all disconnected. And so like, if I'm an Apple person, I'm innovative. If I'm an Amazon person, maybe I care about value.

If I'm a Comcast person, like that's just a blank for me. Like what does that even mean? Yeah. Right.

You like bad customer service? yeah, I don't know. Um, so like I, I don't think Comcast has a, a technology problem. I think they have like a coherence problem.

and so some improved positioning there could just really help. And Peacock in particular is like emblematic of that for me. Like, why are we trying to. reinvent the wheel when we already have all of these great pieces that I think together could be, uh, even more powerful if they were connected in the right way?

So what's like… I mean, I think my first step here would be to, like, w- do some really intense customer research. Is that the right… That's what my gut says. Is that what, uh, is that what you'd be I think so. Like I, I, I'm an, uh, you know, a survey of one, but like, w- do people resonate with the Peacock brand or do they think it's kinda silly?

Like, does NBC still mean something or is that outdated? like do, do, do people like the service they get from Xfinity now, or is it still, you know, associated with poor connectivity and bad customer service? and just try to figure out where the, the opportunity is. and then try to put something together that, that plays on all those and, and maybe there is, some kind of bundled offering that, uh, pulls all these pieces together, in a way that makes sense to consumers and, and makes people wanna buy into the whole thing and, and, you know, earn a larger share of wallet.

Yeah, I love this. And I'm kind of like thinking through the opportunity and some of the brands that you mentioned already, right? Like Amazon and, Apple. As a, as a marketer, as a product marketer, if you were to work for one of those companies, you're proud, right?

Those are fantastic brands. I'm not sure if it's the same level of pride when it's Comcast. Not saying it's not, but, but here's in my - This is I might be, again, like an N of one in feeling this way. There's something kind of attractive about that challenge, like a ph- like a flip, you know?

Like, give it to me. Let me flip it around. Like, give me - Let me get my hands on the strategy, on the messaging, on the storytelling, and, turn it into the level of admiration that some of those other brands have. So, uh, yeah, so I, I don't know.

You said you watched The Office. Do you watch 30 Rock too? Oh, I, one that's on my list and I haven't, Oh, well, 30 Rock has this wonderful character, Jack Donaghy, uh, who's like the NBC executive, and he's always coming up with these schemes. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to release my inner Jack Donaghy and, uh, come up with a, a crazy scheme for, for Comcast and NBC.

My, my latent interest in being a media mogul, you know, got to be exercised, So thank you So good. I love it. Okay. Well, shout out to any Peacock PMMs out there.

I think you've got some fans, and, you know, we've got some ideas for you, so let us know what you think. I'm, I'm available, yeah. I love it. All right, so Steve, one thing that I like to make space for on this podcast is a moment of gratitude because none of us in product marketing get to where we are on our own.

We always have others to learn from, to mentor us, to give us feedback, to give us ideas, and we're all better for it. So before we wrap up, one, I wanna say a genuine thank you to you for giving your time and expertise to the show and to our listeners. But then, two, turn it around, and who do we have to thank to who helped shape you as a PMM and made you the amazing PMM that you are? Oh, I love this question, and I love ending with a moment of gratitude.

yeah, I think about three former colleagues that I've had, that I'd love to give shout-outs to. So, uh, to Rob and Pam, who I worked with at Optimizely, for just being smarter than me. I learned from you. To Ray Lambert, um, who I worked with at Intercom, uh, who was more entrepreneurial than me.

and, uh, to Tim Parkes, who I worked with at Twilio, for being more strategic than me. I, I learned a lot from all those folks and, and really appreciated the chance to, uh, be their peer for a short period of time. Uh, so shout out to those three, for sure. I love that.

One of my favorite things, so I literally keep like a, I keep a spreadsheet somewhere of people that I've worked with that I just like, they had some kind of special talent or strength that I really admired, and I just keep note of it, and it's, it's a long list. But, but I'm so glad that, um, some of these people were able to cross pat- cross paths with your career. It's awesome. All right.

Okay, my last question for you, I promise. Where else can we access your expertise? Is it best to find you on LinkedIn? Yeah.

LinkedIn is the easiest. Uh, hit me up, uh, if you've got questions about how to build a system like the one we were talking about. Uh, I, I'd love to hear from you, and I'd love to hear what, uh, what people are building themselves so I can learn from them too Awesome. So good.

Thank you so much, Steve. This was such a fantastic episode. And hey, PMM listeners, if you liked this episode, please share it with a PMM friend. I would be so grateful if you would leave us a review.

It helps tremendously with our reach.