Claude Code Your Next Launch Like A Vivun PMM

1 00:00:42,344 - > 00:00:44,874 So I've started to notice something over 2 00:00:44,874 - > 00:00:45,964 the past several months. 3 00:00:46,574 - > 00:00:49,004 Product marketing is splitting into two groups. 4 00:00:49,444 - > 00:00:53,094 In group one, we have the PMMs who are using AI to 5 00:00:53,094 - > 00:00:54,574 complete a task faster. 6 00:00:54,994 - > 00:00:57,294 They're spinning up messaging, writing narratives, 7 00:00:57,314 - > 00:01:00,114 or creating enablement materials, et cetera. 8 00:01:00,429 - > 00:01:04,407 And then in group two, we have the PMMs who are using AI to 9 00:01:04,477 - > 00:01:06,407 operationalize deep thinking. 10 00:01:06,787 - > 00:01:09,047 They pressure test positioning from multiple customers' 11 00:01:09,047 - > 00:01:12,137 perspectives, or they synthesize patterns across 12 00:01:12,197 - > 00:01:15,147 dozens of interviews, all in real time or as 13 00:01:15,147 - > 00:01:16,467 an always-on system. 14 00:01:17,187 - > 00:01:19,847 And I think we all fell into that first camp when we 15 00:01:19,847 - > 00:01:21,117 all first started with AI. 16 00:01:21,397 - > 00:01:25,247 But what I'm seeing now is that the strong PMMs are now 17 00:01:25,327 - > 00:01:28,927 outgrowing that, and they're operationalizing with AI. 18 00:01:29,657 - > 00:01:32,627 Today's episode is one of the best examples I've 19 00:01:32,627 - > 00:01:33,907 seen of that done well. 20 00:01:34,297 - > 00:01:37,437 Today, we're talking about how you reposition an entire 21 00:01:37,467 - > 00:01:41,457 company at breakneck speed without losing the plot. 22 00:01:42,177 - > 00:01:44,647 How you take a company known for one persona and 23 00:01:44,647 - > 00:01:47,435 completely shift the narrative toward another, while 24 00:01:47,465 - > 00:01:51,195 also building the internal systems that keep every team 25 00:01:51,205 - > 00:01:52,575 speaking the same language. 26 00:01:53,115 - > 00:01:55,445 And I could not think of a better person to have 27 00:01:55,445 - > 00:01:58,825 this conversation with than today's guest, Ryan Radcliffe. 28 00:01:59,345 - > 00:02:02,665 Ryan leads product marketing at Vivun, where he's been 29 00:02:02,715 - > 00:02:05,475 at the center of a massive positioning shift as the 30 00:02:05,475 - > 00:02:09,135 company evolved from serving sales engineers to introducing 31 00:02:09,165 - > 00:02:10,715 a new product for sellers. 32 00:02:11,325 - > 00:02:14,455 What I love about Ryan's approach is that this was not 33 00:02:14,465 - > 00:02:17,295 some, like, throw some prompts into Claude and hope for 34 00:02:17,295 - > 00:02:18,555 the best type of situation. 35 00:02:19,025 - > 00:02:22,255 This was deeply operational, deeply strategic. 36 00:02:22,285 - > 00:02:26,115 He built a 40-page messaging and persona manifesto grounded 37 00:02:26,115 - > 00:02:28,205 in research, stakeholder alignment, customer 38 00:02:28,205 - > 00:02:31,095 psychology, voice of customer insights, all the good stuff, 39 00:02:31,625 - > 00:02:35,015 and then he used those systems to move incredibly fast. 40 00:02:35,405 - > 00:02:37,425 We're talking, like, build a brand new website 41 00:02:37,425 - > 00:02:38,665 in just two weeks fast. 42 00:02:38,885 - > 00:02:39,715 Super crazy. 43 00:02:40,235 - > 00:02:42,395 With that, Ryan, I'm so excited to 44 00:02:42,405 - > 00:02:43,205 have you here today. 45 00:02:43,235 - > 00:02:44,135 Welcome to the show 46 00:02:44,588 - > 00:02:45,328 Thank you, Elle. 47 00:02:45,338 - > 00:02:46,558 Thanks so much for having me. 48 00:02:46,648 - > 00:02:48,018 I love that intro. 49 00:02:48,098 - > 00:02:49,776 Uh, I love the energy that you have. 50 00:02:49,776 - > 00:02:51,266 I'm such a fan of this podcast. 51 00:02:51,562 - > 00:02:52,662 I'm so glad to be here. 52 00:02:52,702 - > 00:02:55,112 This is a topic that I think about every day, so 53 00:02:55,192 - > 00:02:56,092 I'm excited to get into it 54 00:02:56,411 - > 00:02:56,671 Yay. 55 00:02:57,551 - > 00:02:58,931 Thank you so much for saying so. 56 00:02:59,276 - > 00:02:59,706 okay. 57 00:02:59,716 - > 00:03:02,396 So let's get started with something really simple 58 00:03:02,406 - > 00:03:03,756 for the listeners today. 59 00:03:04,406 - > 00:03:05,826 What is Vivin? 60 00:03:05,886 - > 00:03:09,476 And you just launched this new product called Hero. 61 00:03:09,506 - > 00:03:10,836 How does that fit into the story? 62 00:03:10,846 - > 00:03:13,116 Just give us some background context on all of that 63 00:03:13,589 - > 00:03:14,259 Absolutely. 64 00:03:14,519 - > 00:03:17,349 So for background context for people, Vivint is the 65 00:03:17,349 - > 00:03:20,249 company and Hero is the product that we build. 66 00:03:20,599 - > 00:03:22,909 And the easiest way that I think about that is like 67 00:03:22,929 - > 00:03:25,699 Anthropic is the company and Claude is the product. 68 00:03:25,709 - > 00:03:26,629 It's the same idea. 69 00:03:27,069 - > 00:03:29,529 Hero is an AI sales teammate. 70 00:03:29,589 - > 00:03:32,929 It joins live calls with sellers. 71 00:03:33,269 - > 00:03:36,069 It knows the deals, it knows their products, it 72 00:03:36,069 - > 00:03:36,959 knows their customers. 73 00:03:37,219 - > 00:03:40,199 It helps them in those moments, those key moments 74 00:03:40,199 - > 00:03:42,679 that actually decide whether that deal goes forward 75 00:03:43,109 - > 00:03:44,919 in a very proactive way. 76 00:03:44,919 - > 00:03:47,819 So before the call, it's getting you ready fast. 77 00:03:48,069 - > 00:03:51,229 During the call, it's really there for the seller, 78 00:03:51,279 - > 00:03:52,699 like when they have a question that they don't 79 00:03:52,699 - > 00:03:53,479 know how the answer for. 80 00:03:53,479 - > 00:03:55,859 Like, if you asked me a really hard question and I 81 00:03:55,869 - > 00:03:59,239 had Hero on, it would like give me a response for you, 82 00:03:59,249 - > 00:04:00,849 which would be amazing. 83 00:04:01,169 - > 00:04:03,509 Uh, and then after the call, it handles up all 84 00:04:03,509 - > 00:04:05,439 those things that sellers don't wanna do, right? 85 00:04:05,439 - > 00:04:07,409 They wanna think about the next call. 86 00:04:07,419 - > 00:04:10,049 They don't wanna update the CRM or anything like that. 87 00:04:10,049 - > 00:04:12,389 So I, I love the solution that our product team and our 88 00:04:12,389 - > 00:04:13,409 engineering team has built. 89 00:04:13,860 - > 00:04:16,918 most sales tools are working before the conversation 90 00:04:16,928 - > 00:04:19,338 or after it, and Hero's right there inside. 91 00:04:19,664 - > 00:04:20,384 I love that. 92 00:04:20,384 - > 00:04:23,844 So basically keeping the seller's skill in the field 93 00:04:23,854 - > 00:04:27,824 versus taking their time to do stuff like update the CRM. 94 00:04:27,964 - > 00:04:29,884 So keeping all the insights in the, in the right 95 00:04:29,884 - > 00:04:32,404 places, keeping the skills in the right places. 96 00:04:32,724 - > 00:04:33,294 So good. 97 00:04:33,834 - > 00:04:34,224 Okay. 98 00:04:34,344 - > 00:04:37,034 So now I want to get into the case study bit 99 00:04:37,064 - > 00:04:39,414 of all this because it's so fascinating to me. 100 00:04:39,782 - > 00:04:43,009 So you joined the company, at this really interesting 101 00:04:43,009 - > 00:04:46,287 inflection point where they were shifting from sales 102 00:04:46,287 - > 00:04:49,207 engineers to sellers with this product called Hero. 103 00:04:49,646 - > 00:04:51,726 and from what you shared with me before, this was 104 00:04:51,726 - > 00:04:54,126 so much more than just, like, a messaging refresh. 105 00:04:54,156 - > 00:04:57,346 Like, it was pretty, a pretty major shift, like an identity 106 00:04:57,346 - > 00:05:00,316 shift for the company even with this new audience. 107 00:05:00,646 - > 00:05:00,936 So 108 00:05:01,076 - > 00:05:02,366 take us back to that moment. 109 00:05:02,386 - > 00:05:05,616 Like, what was happening internally when the team 110 00:05:05,616 - > 00:05:07,616 realized, like, "Okay, we need to reposition 111 00:05:07,616 - > 00:05:08,436 the whole company"? 112 00:05:08,704 - > 00:05:09,582 Yeah, absolutely. 113 00:05:09,802 - > 00:05:12,792 So when I joined, Vivun really had deep roots 114 00:05:12,832 - > 00:05:14,602 with sales engineers. 115 00:05:15,077 - > 00:05:18,567 a product line, a whole slew of customers, really technical 116 00:05:18,567 - > 00:05:20,357 people supporting big deals. 117 00:05:20,787 - > 00:05:23,687 The company was so good at that, but the founders got 118 00:05:23,687 - > 00:05:26,327 really fired up about a completely different problem, 119 00:05:26,777 - > 00:05:29,327 and that's that whole thing about what if the seller, the 120 00:05:29,327 - > 00:05:33,767 person who's, has to perform, can get that expert support 121 00:05:33,837 - > 00:05:35,257 live on the call, right? 122 00:05:35,257 - > 00:05:37,807 So how I kind of phrase it all the time is like, 123 00:05:37,817 - > 00:05:41,207 we burned the boats, we built a whole new product. 124 00:05:41,726 - > 00:05:44,196 a completely different person, completely different problem. 125 00:05:44,621 - > 00:05:48,017 you know, the seller is the one performing, and that gap 126 00:05:48,287 - > 00:05:51,667 is everywhere in sales, and no one knew how to solve it. 127 00:05:52,007 - > 00:05:56,117 And so Hiro is actually an old product name that Vivun 128 00:05:56,127 - > 00:05:59,117 has brought back, um, to be a part of what we're doing 129 00:05:59,117 - > 00:06:00,087 now, which is very cool. 130 00:06:00,097 - > 00:06:02,527 We had the copyright for this name, which is very exciting. 131 00:06:02,947 - > 00:06:05,937 Um, so the decision was made to go all in this new 132 00:06:05,937 - > 00:06:10,067 shift, new branding, new colors, new website, all 133 00:06:10,067 - > 00:06:13,017 of it, sort of a new way of thinking about Vivun as this 134 00:06:13,037 - > 00:06:16,667 kind of like overarching research firm on top of Hiro. 135 00:06:17,292 - > 00:06:19,113 and so we needed a whole new story. 136 00:06:19,543 - > 00:06:21,403 We needed to make sure that how we were thinking 137 00:06:21,443 - > 00:06:23,253 about personas was correct. 138 00:06:23,657 - > 00:06:24,659 new point of view. 139 00:06:24,939 - > 00:06:26,519 That was really the job, right? 140 00:06:26,679 - > 00:06:29,669 Come in, Q1 started on February 1st. 141 00:06:29,889 - > 00:06:31,729 I started like a week before that. 142 00:06:31,998 - > 00:06:32,882 and so that was it. 143 00:06:32,922 - > 00:06:35,662 Operationalize a brand new narrative from scratch. 144 00:06:36,132 - > 00:06:39,107 And so what we did, uh, what we started by doing 145 00:06:39,347 - > 00:06:42,347 was building the 40-page positioning and messaging 146 00:06:42,357 - > 00:06:47,151 doc, and then a persona doc, doing the heavy research, um, 147 00:06:47,161 - > 00:06:51,046 doing all that with Claude, as the foundation, uh, and then 148 00:06:51,046 - > 00:06:52,996 sharing it with the company and really making it like 149 00:06:52,996 - > 00:06:54,596 this operationalized thing. 150 00:06:55,090 - > 00:06:58,085 and so the result of all that, which has been amazing, 151 00:06:58,135 - > 00:07:00,732 is that, my cohort and the rest of the marketing team, 152 00:07:00,742 - > 00:07:04,062 my, my, uh, director of, of growth marketing, demand 153 00:07:04,062 - > 00:07:07,002 gen, she really was able to take this and have it 154 00:07:07,032 - > 00:07:09,142 be one of her main inputs for making a whole - new 155 00:07:09,172 - > 00:07:10,652 website in a matter of weeks. 156 00:07:10,912 - > 00:07:12,672 Just incredible work on her part. 157 00:07:13,085 - > 00:07:15,616 and this was a main driver for getting that done. 158 00:07:16,116 - > 00:07:17,166 Uh, and it's really incredible. 159 00:07:17,166 - > 00:07:19,156 We did a soft launch on April 6th. 160 00:07:19,536 - > 00:07:22,036 We did the big launch, uh, three days ago on May 5th. 161 00:07:22,806 - > 00:07:25,606 The new website in two weeks, the company aligned. 162 00:07:25,955 - > 00:07:28,622 it's really incredible how this framework has 163 00:07:28,622 - > 00:07:32,822 really given this like consistent DNA, um, to 164 00:07:32,822 - > 00:07:34,572 everything we do, and it's, it's really exciting. 165 00:07:34,931 - > 00:07:37,771 I love that, and that all happened so quickly. 166 00:07:37,771 - > 00:07:39,391 And remind me, how big is Vivint? 167 00:07:39,401 - > 00:07:40,871 Like, how many, how many employees? 168 00:07:41,302 - > 00:07:43,402 Vivint's around, I think we're around 75 people 169 00:07:43,929 - > 00:07:44,319 Okay. 170 00:07:44,699 - > 00:07:47,189 But still, it's a lot of people, it's a lot of, um, 171 00:07:47,279 - > 00:07:49,139 teams to try to rally around. 172 00:07:49,139 - > 00:07:51,249 I mean, I worked at a company about that size a 173 00:07:51,249 - > 00:07:55,188 long time ago, and it takes a little bit of work to try 174 00:07:55,188 - > 00:07:58,958 to get everybody, you know, speaking the same language. 175 00:07:59,322 - > 00:08:01,287 and it sounds like you had some really strong 176 00:08:01,287 - > 00:08:03,907 stakeholders to help pull this off too, 177 00:08:03,917 - > 00:08:05,580 which is always a bonus. 178 00:08:06,114 - > 00:08:09,216 and when you first build, kind of like generally speaking, 179 00:08:09,542 - > 00:08:12,782 it sounds like your approach was, okay, like let's all 180 00:08:12,782 - > 00:08:13,822 get clarity on something. 181 00:08:13,822 - > 00:08:16,042 Like you put so much effort, and I w- and I 182 00:08:16,062 - > 00:08:17,042 do wanna get into this. 183 00:08:17,102 - > 00:08:19,652 Um, I'll have more questions on this in a, in just a bit. 184 00:08:19,652 - > 00:08:23,632 But you put so much effort into building that 40-page 185 00:08:23,632 - > 00:08:27,607 manifesto, which is the opposite of what I'm hearing 186 00:08:27,657 - > 00:08:31,847 as advice from other product marketers out there who are 187 00:08:31,847 - > 00:08:33,007 really good at their jobs. 188 00:08:33,780 - > 00:08:35,750 I err more on heavy research. 189 00:08:35,810 - > 00:08:38,798 I like doing that kind of activity. 190 00:08:38,808 - > 00:08:40,968 It just, it helps me personally feel like I'm being 191 00:08:40,968 - > 00:08:45,688 a better PMM and be just more, get more confidence and get 192 00:08:45,688 - > 00:08:48,148 more conviction in whatever narrative I'm stringing up. 193 00:08:48,148 - > 00:08:50,788 So I'm in camp, like, yes, more research. 194 00:08:50,818 - > 00:08:54,478 But, um, but you, you got clarity on positioning, you 195 00:08:54,478 - > 00:08:55,818 got clarity on personas. 196 00:08:55,858 - > 00:08:57,538 You put all of that together in this like 197 00:08:57,821 - > 00:09:02,985 40-page manifesto, and then you operationalized it. 198 00:09:02,985 - > 00:09:06,186 So I'm a little curious now, like when you were 199 00:09:06,186 - > 00:09:08,256 building those manifestos and like, then like the 200 00:09:08,256 - > 00:09:10,676 systems in place, was there a moment when you realized 201 00:09:10,716 - > 00:09:14,046 like, "Oh, this is how we're gonna change, like how the 202 00:09:14,046 - > 00:09:15,476 whole company communicates?" 203 00:09:15,526 - > 00:09:18,326 Versus like, was it like you, was it very methodical, 204 00:09:18,326 - > 00:09:20,466 like you knew that that was going to affect it? 205 00:09:20,486 - > 00:09:23,526 Or was it like, "No, no, no, this is just my process"? 206 00:09:23,586 - > 00:09:25,196 You know, kind of talk through that a little bit. 207 00:09:26,084 - > 00:09:26,294 Yeah. 208 00:09:26,304 - > 00:09:27,264 Thank you for that question. 209 00:09:27,274 - > 00:09:29,784 So this kind of starts from a couple years ago where 210 00:09:29,784 - > 00:09:32,814 I ma - I tried to make a version of this in ChatGPT 211 00:09:32,844 - > 00:09:35,924 for my former - in a former life, and there was a lot of 212 00:09:35,934 - > 00:09:39,214 hallucinations, and it just wasn't lining up with what 213 00:09:39,214 - > 00:09:40,264 I needed it to be, right? 214 00:09:40,314 - > 00:09:43,474 I needed it to work for people who were not 215 00:09:43,564 - > 00:09:46,954 critically looking at the messaging like I was, right? 216 00:09:46,954 - > 00:09:49,074 Like you and I and product marketers, like, we love 217 00:09:49,074 - > 00:09:50,794 looking at those little things and those little things 218 00:09:50,794 - > 00:09:53,624 that are - that can come up wrong and, and change them. 219 00:09:53,824 - > 00:09:56,644 But I needed someone not so close to that to be 220 00:09:56,644 - > 00:09:58,994 able to take something and run with it and not 221 00:09:59,024 - > 00:10:00,654 get caught with a problem. 222 00:10:01,124 - > 00:10:04,694 And so coming here to Vivint, I was so excited at how 223 00:10:04,734 - > 00:10:08,374 big of a Claude sort of, uh, momentum was happening 224 00:10:08,374 - > 00:10:09,034 here at the company. 225 00:10:09,034 - > 00:10:10,764 We're using Claude for so much stuff. 226 00:10:11,194 - > 00:10:15,874 And then I just love April Dunford and Anthony Pieri 227 00:10:15,874 - > 00:10:18,584 and some of these, like, big product marketing voices, 228 00:10:19,014 - > 00:10:20,684 and I just thought, "This is gonna be so exciting 229 00:10:20,684 - > 00:10:24,134 for me. I'm gonna take this positioning and messaging 230 00:10:24,134 - > 00:10:26,934 framework that I've been really tasked to do," because 231 00:10:26,994 - > 00:10:29,784 what my boss did, w- we have an incredible CMO at Vivint, 232 00:10:29,784 - > 00:10:32,904 but he sat down with the founders and the E-suite and 233 00:10:32,924 - > 00:10:34,824 got the narrative from them. 234 00:10:35,324 - > 00:10:38,484 So I'm able to start with the narrative, and that's 235 00:10:38,494 - > 00:10:39,944 ama- that's a gift, right? 236 00:10:39,954 - > 00:10:42,344 'Cause that's really hard work to get a bunch of leaders 237 00:10:42,344 - > 00:10:46,074 in a room and really decide on how we win the market. 238 00:10:46,094 - > 00:10:46,404 that. 239 00:10:46,404 - > 00:10:49,354 is step one in what April Dunford talks about, 240 00:10:49,494 - > 00:10:50,584 and he did that step. 241 00:10:50,944 - > 00:10:54,514 So that's amazing, is I get to come in with that and then 242 00:10:54,693 - > 00:10:55,743 building this whole thing out. 243 00:10:55,753 - > 00:10:57,993 And the reason why it was long and the reason why it 244 00:10:57,993 - > 00:11:00,533 was so complete is that I thought that if I could get 245 00:11:00,533 - > 00:11:03,573 this into Claude and really make sure I'm, like, dotting 246 00:11:03,573 - > 00:11:07,643 every I, crossing every T, that it can continue to 247 00:11:07,653 - > 00:11:08,993 give me the outputs I want. 248 00:11:09,023 - > 00:11:12,523 And where we really saw this was when the team 249 00:11:12,523 - > 00:11:15,153 turned around and said, "Hey, we need a hero website 250 00:11:15,511 - > 00:11:19,364 in a couple of weeks, and we're gonna build Page 251 00:11:19,374 - > 00:11:23,335 frames, and then I'm gonna download that page in HTML. 252 00:11:23,795 - > 00:11:27,211 I'm gonna throw it into Claude with all of my messaging 253 00:11:27,211 - > 00:11:31,071 and persona framework, and all of my persona research 254 00:11:31,071 - > 00:11:33,931 and the - and all that stuff that I've built, and our copy 255 00:11:33,931 - > 00:11:36,861 guideline that we wrote, and I'm gonna say, "Take this 256 00:11:36,881 - > 00:11:41,273 HTML framework and m-Mad Lib this." Like, 'cause you 257 00:11:41,283 - > 00:11:42,463 know what we're all about. 258 00:11:42,823 - > 00:11:44,893 But like for example, we're gonna build a page, 259 00:11:45,383 - > 00:11:48,623 a, a homepage, like, and, and give me good copy. 260 00:11:49,003 - > 00:11:53,373 And it gives me like a 75% because of everything I've 261 00:11:53,393 - > 00:11:56,173 built in and, and all the stuff I put in, and I've taken 262 00:11:56,173 - > 00:11:58,723 like Fletch PMM frameworks and put them in there, and I've, 263 00:11:59,043 - > 00:12:01,053 I've like put all these things in there and kind of built 264 00:12:01,063 - > 00:12:03,663 like my little like small language model in Claude. 265 00:12:04,263 - > 00:12:06,553 And the stuff it comes out with is like, all right, 266 00:12:06,583 - > 00:12:09,083 like we're gonna make some tweaks of course, but like 267 00:12:09,083 - > 00:12:10,743 this is really saving us. 268 00:12:10,743 - > 00:12:12,913 This is making sure that like we're not 269 00:12:12,913 - > 00:12:14,343 dealing with scope creep. 270 00:12:14,770 - > 00:12:17,430 that alignment was amazing in like getting a website, 271 00:12:17,430 - > 00:12:21,180 which can be such a, a bear of a project, really off 272 00:12:21,180 - > 00:12:22,906 the ground, was super cool 273 00:12:23,280 - > 00:12:24,180 I love that. 274 00:12:24,210 - > 00:12:27,840 Yes, and it's a really great example of doing all 275 00:12:27,840 - > 00:12:30,200 that research and creating these really deep like 276 00:12:30,242 - > 00:12:33,656 persona messaging narrative, messaging docs, right? 277 00:12:33,936 - > 00:12:36,932 That, pre-AI, these would sometimes be 278 00:12:37,121 - > 00:12:38,061 lengthy documents. 279 00:12:38,101 - > 00:12:40,411 I'm not sure about, I mean, 40 pages is, like, the 280 00:12:40,561 - > 00:12:43,861 longest that I've ever heard, but mine were pretty long. 281 00:12:43,871 - > 00:12:48,332 Mine would be, like, 15 pages, and I would always say that 282 00:12:48,332 - > 00:12:50,802 the purpose of these documents is not something that we 283 00:12:50,802 - > 00:12:52,362 hand out to our stakeholders. 284 00:12:52,372 - > 00:12:54,932 It's for the PMM to gain confidence. 285 00:12:55,142 - > 00:12:56,882 But what I like what you're doing is you're kind of like 286 00:12:57,242 - > 00:13:00,492 you're doing this really deep research, and you're using 287 00:13:00,492 - > 00:13:04,492 that to try to, what I think you were saying with your 288 00:13:04,492 - > 00:13:09,402 story, was to try to reduce the amount of hallucinating. 289 00:13:09,522 - > 00:13:11,802 Like, the more complete information that you're 290 00:13:11,812 - > 00:13:17,992 feeding into the system, the less likely that you'll get 291 00:13:18,002 - > 00:13:20,552 some of that hallucinating and the more accurate information 292 00:13:20,552 - > 00:13:21,972 you'll get as outputs. 293 00:13:22,172 - > 00:13:25,202 Is that kind of like an accurate description 294 00:13:25,202 - > 00:13:27,832 of, like, your, uh, the reasoning behind doing 295 00:13:27,832 - > 00:13:30,542 this, like, deep, building out those deep manifestos? 296 00:13:31,054 - > 00:13:32,184 Yeah, I think so. 297 00:13:32,184 - > 00:13:35,584 It's like, I think PMM teams are really changing, right? 298 00:13:35,604 - > 00:13:37,744 Like I lead PMM here, but I don't have a 299 00:13:37,744 - > 00:13:39,154 team of PMMs anymore. 300 00:13:39,434 - > 00:13:42,493 And really my versions of my tabs of Claude are 301 00:13:42,493 - > 00:13:44,073 kind of like my PMM team. 302 00:13:44,423 - > 00:13:46,913 And so I want all of us to be, you know, running 303 00:13:46,913 - > 00:13:48,103 in the same direction. 304 00:13:48,133 - > 00:13:50,653 If I can fire off a project working on a webpage, 305 00:13:51,023 - > 00:13:53,323 and then I can fire off a project, you know, like 306 00:13:53,513 - > 00:13:57,183 w- working on a slide or like synthesizing maybe a 307 00:13:57,183 - > 00:14:00,473 conversation I have with an analyst or giving me like all 308 00:14:00,473 - > 00:14:03,733 the notes I need to go into an analyst conversation, like 309 00:14:03,783 - > 00:14:05,503 I can have these different things running at the same 310 00:14:05,503 - > 00:14:08,033 time, but I have to be able to trust that they're 311 00:14:08,103 - > 00:14:10,723 all like exactly with me. 312 00:14:10,993 - > 00:14:13,563 Like I'm not gonna type in a prompt every time. 313 00:14:13,903 - > 00:14:17,063 And so I just wanted to not only me hold the system 314 00:14:17,063 - > 00:14:19,683 accountable, but the system like hold me accountable 315 00:14:19,843 - > 00:14:23,153 when I have ideas that can kind of go astray, which 316 00:14:23,153 - > 00:14:24,223 happens all the time, right? 317 00:14:24,253 - > 00:14:27,513 Like when we talk about value props, it's so easy to get 318 00:14:27,513 - > 00:14:31,183 into like time savings or these like little things, and 319 00:14:31,183 - > 00:14:33,373 I love that the system I built is like, "Hey, wait a minute. 320 00:14:33,783 - > 00:14:35,903 You know, that's not one of like the - that's not one 321 00:14:35,903 - > 00:14:37,783 of the key things that we've sort of established in this 322 00:14:37,783 - > 00:14:39,193 framework," which is great. 323 00:14:39,193 - > 00:14:40,533 So I love that feedback loop. 324 00:14:41,192 - > 00:14:42,962 I didn't even think about it as a feedback loop. 325 00:14:42,972 - > 00:14:46,565 but that's an added bonus that, you know, maybe be, 326 00:14:46,585 - > 00:14:48,665 maybe intentional for you, but for me would've been more 327 00:14:48,665 - > 00:14:49,815 of like a happy accident. 328 00:14:49,825 - > 00:14:51,849 That's… Okay, so cool. 329 00:14:52,263 - > 00:14:56,213 okay, so what I wanna do now is basically take this, 330 00:14:56,329 - > 00:14:59,639 story, this case study, and turn it into a playbook. 331 00:14:59,649 - > 00:15:03,622 So let's assume that, you're coaching me on, 332 00:15:03,652 - > 00:15:06,372 on a similar situation or challenge that I have. 333 00:15:06,892 - > 00:15:09,522 Say that I've, you know, I work at a company and it's 334 00:15:09,522 - > 00:15:12,082 the parent company, but I'm releasing a new product. 335 00:15:12,082 - > 00:15:15,170 It's speaking to a completely different persona, and I've 336 00:15:15,170 - > 00:15:16,740 got ti- a tight timeline. 337 00:15:17,070 - > 00:15:18,730 I'm trying to do things really quickly within the 338 00:15:18,730 - > 00:15:20,880 next, like, you know, less than a month, um, we'll 339 00:15:20,880 - > 00:15:25,570 say, two to four weeks, and I want to operationalize 340 00:15:25,600 - > 00:15:28,250 it the same way that you did with Hero at Vivint. 341 00:15:28,740 - > 00:15:30,070 What is step one? 342 00:15:30,080 - > 00:15:31,710 Where do I get started with all of this? 343 00:15:32,441 - > 00:15:32,681 Yeah. 344 00:15:33,131 - > 00:15:35,921 So the first thing I did was I, I had like 345 00:15:35,921 - > 00:15:38,931 the junior version of my framework, and then I had 346 00:15:38,931 - > 00:15:40,301 like the blown-out version. 347 00:15:40,721 - > 00:15:42,941 So the first things I have to kind of figure out right 348 00:15:42,941 - > 00:15:46,401 away, right, is like, who is the new person that we're 349 00:15:46,401 - > 00:15:47,961 building this for, right? 350 00:15:47,961 - > 00:15:49,671 And this is where some of that Anthony Pieri stuff 351 00:15:49,671 - > 00:15:53,541 gets into of like the wha- when would I use this? 352 00:15:53,771 - > 00:15:55,481 I got this 'cause I, I got really into some of these 353 00:15:55,481 - > 00:15:58,071 Exit Five podcasts, uh, in the last year, and that 354 00:15:58,071 - > 00:16:00,131 was something he jumped on about, is like there's so 355 00:16:00,131 - > 00:16:01,281 much noise in the market. 356 00:16:01,561 - > 00:16:04,241 What people really wanna know is like, "Okay, you built 357 00:16:04,241 - > 00:16:07,081 this for me. When would I use this?" And then the question 358 00:16:07,081 - > 00:16:08,731 of like, who is this for? 359 00:16:09,041 - > 00:16:11,971 Really into those basic ideas, I think is huge. 360 00:16:12,001 - > 00:16:15,351 And then, uh, back to April Dunford, is like 361 00:16:15,361 - > 00:16:18,131 what's the condensed version of this framework? 362 00:16:18,141 - > 00:16:20,521 It's the who it's for, it's the problem 363 00:16:20,521 - > 00:16:22,011 we're solving, right? 364 00:16:22,011 - > 00:16:24,831 We've got to align how we see the problem the 365 00:16:24,831 - > 00:16:26,621 same way as the people we're trying to sell to. 366 00:16:26,621 - > 00:16:28,481 We've got to see the problem in the same way. 367 00:16:29,194 - > 00:16:31,314 what's our differentiated value? 368 00:16:31,314 - > 00:16:32,024 Of course, right? 369 00:16:32,024 - > 00:16:34,674 We've got to make sure that we define that really succinctly. 370 00:16:34,874 - > 00:16:38,734 So who it's for, what's the problem that we're solving 371 00:16:38,734 - > 00:16:40,094 for that person that it's for? 372 00:16:40,324 - > 00:16:42,024 What's the value that we bring? 373 00:16:42,574 - > 00:16:45,634 What makes how we're solving it different? 374 00:16:46,624 - > 00:16:49,425 what's the impact on their lives? 375 00:16:49,734 - > 00:16:51,055 What's the proof, right? 376 00:16:51,055 - > 00:16:52,045 That's my next section here. 377 00:16:52,045 - > 00:16:53,755 I have my kind of framework here on the side here. 378 00:16:54,248 - > 00:16:54,688 gotta have a 379 00:16:54,688 - > 00:16:55,038 classic 380 00:16:55,088 - > 00:16:55,498 positioning. 381 00:16:56,378 - > 00:16:57,888 So that's next, the positioning statement. 382 00:16:58,426 - > 00:17:01,441 and then something like we call benefits ladder, where 383 00:17:01,441 - > 00:17:03,641 we're looking at like what's the emotional benefits? 384 00:17:03,979 - > 00:17:05,302 what's the functional benefits? 385 00:17:05,312 - > 00:17:07,102 And so we kind of like put some of those together. 386 00:17:07,591 - > 00:17:10,993 and then, uh, the last line of it is like how to sanity 387 00:17:10,993 - > 00:17:12,213 check the new message. 388 00:17:12,463 - > 00:17:16,123 So for us it would be if this doesn't help a seller prepare, 389 00:17:16,383 - > 00:17:19,893 respond, or follow through when the pressure of the 390 00:17:19,893 - > 00:17:22,803 moment is on, then it doesn't belong in what we're doing. 391 00:17:22,973 - > 00:17:26,184 So that's kind of the, the initial thing, uh, of it. 392 00:17:26,304 - > 00:17:26,524 Yeah. 393 00:17:27,352 - > 00:17:30,062 So your step one is basically like do the classic 394 00:17:30,652 - > 00:17:31,682 product marketing work. 395 00:17:32,032 - > 00:17:33,912 Like who is it for? 396 00:17:34,012 - > 00:17:35,322 Why are we doing this? 397 00:17:35,512 - > 00:17:37,022 What's our differentiator? 398 00:17:37,022 - > 00:17:38,482 I love the benefits ladder. 399 00:17:38,482 - > 00:17:40,692 I haven't heard it articulated that way before. 400 00:17:40,942 - > 00:17:41,552 So good. 401 00:17:42,084 - > 00:17:43,866 but that's very classic. 402 00:17:43,876 - > 00:17:45,786 That's not like, "Hey, let's plug stuff into AI." 403 00:17:46,206 - > 00:17:47,496 I love that you didn't start there. 404 00:17:47,496 - > 00:17:49,700 You started with like do the classic 405 00:17:49,820 - > 00:17:51,060 product marketing work. 406 00:17:51,488 - > 00:17:55,384 and then once you have that, what do I do with that now? 407 00:17:55,384 - > 00:17:58,916 So let's say I, I did all those things and maybe I 408 00:17:58,916 - > 00:18:01,576 used some other tools to do that, but, is that the 409 00:18:01,576 - > 00:18:04,196 manifesto or does that go into the manifesto? 410 00:18:04,635 - > 00:18:06,835 So it's funny, it's kind of back to the feedback loop 411 00:18:06,835 - > 00:18:09,505 idea where, like, that's where we start with, like, 412 00:18:09,505 - > 00:18:10,435 really defining those things. 413 00:18:10,435 - > 00:18:12,755 And what, what's also funny about this scenario is that 414 00:18:12,755 - > 00:18:16,115 I'm brand new to a company, and so I'm pulling in the 415 00:18:16,115 - > 00:18:18,645 narrative and I'm kind of like, you know, in the Google 416 00:18:18,655 - > 00:18:21,255 Drive, like trying to find all the information and, and 417 00:18:21,255 - > 00:18:22,265 make sure I've got everything. 418 00:18:22,585 - > 00:18:25,125 And what actually ended up being very lucky for me 419 00:18:25,475 - > 00:18:28,815 was that I had to do this a couple of times because I 420 00:18:28,835 - > 00:18:32,285 left out some very key inputs. 421 00:18:32,315 - > 00:18:34,185 I, I've been at the company now for three months. 422 00:18:34,185 - > 00:18:37,395 I don't remember what those were, but I remember doing the 423 00:18:37,395 - > 00:18:41,566 big version and being like: Oh no, I missed some key things, 424 00:18:41,836 - > 00:18:44,356 and kind of going back through and doing it all again. 425 00:18:44,859 - > 00:18:46,709 of course, I'm using AI at that point 426 00:18:46,729 - > 00:18:47,599 with the help of AI. 427 00:18:47,912 - > 00:18:50,461 I start with those things, and then I'm getting into 428 00:18:50,461 - > 00:18:54,581 the complete framework of like, I wanna make sure I'm 429 00:18:54,761 - > 00:18:57,801 showing in this document, like how to use this document. 430 00:18:57,811 - > 00:18:59,051 Like what's its purpose? 431 00:18:59,071 - > 00:19:00,921 What's it for, right? 432 00:19:00,921 - > 00:19:04,711 That's kind of my like chapter zero of like, this 433 00:19:04,711 - > 00:19:06,351 is a positioning thesis. 434 00:19:06,771 - > 00:19:08,141 This is a new product. 435 00:19:08,191 - > 00:19:11,016 We do have customers, but like, like great product 436 00:19:11,046 - > 00:19:15,836 marketers say, like, we really need to, uh, have a lot more 437 00:19:15,836 - > 00:19:19,316 raving fans, uh, which we'll get, which will help us kind 438 00:19:19,316 - > 00:19:20,546 of refine who this is for. 439 00:19:20,546 - > 00:19:22,626 But, but I really established this as a positioning 440 00:19:22,636 - > 00:19:26,256 thesis, uh, who it's built for and all that stuff. 441 00:19:26,316 - > 00:19:30,666 And then the next 12 to 13 sections are the positioning 442 00:19:30,666 - > 00:19:37,226 foundation, uh, why market context, why now, all those 443 00:19:37,256 - > 00:19:40,416 kinds of things of like, sort of like classic narrative 444 00:19:40,416 - > 00:19:44,256 ideas of like, what's the fishbowl that we're in, right? 445 00:19:44,486 - > 00:19:46,864 It's a lot of that stuff around, which is a huge 446 00:19:46,864 - > 00:19:50,474 part of our narrative of how no one has any patience 447 00:19:50,554 - > 00:19:52,174 on a sales call, right? 448 00:19:52,204 - > 00:19:53,774 That's the world that sellers are in. 449 00:19:53,774 - > 00:19:55,034 That's the world that buyers are in. 450 00:19:55,044 - > 00:19:56,104 There's no patience. 451 00:19:56,434 - > 00:19:59,444 There's no time for, "Let me get back to you," or, "Let's 452 00:19:59,444 - > 00:20:03,194 have another meeting." If we start from that angle 453 00:20:03,284 - > 00:20:06,914 of that true reality, then it's like, okay, we see the 454 00:20:06,914 - > 00:20:09,674 problem the same way that the person we're trying 455 00:20:09,674 - > 00:20:10,904 to sell it to does, right? 456 00:20:10,944 - > 00:20:12,984 And then it's like, well, we built something for, for 457 00:20:12,984 - > 00:20:14,134 helping you in that moment. 458 00:20:14,544 - > 00:20:16,244 So if we're seeing reality on the same page. 459 00:20:16,244 - > 00:20:20,606 So a lot of my manifesto is talking about, why we're 460 00:20:20,646 - > 00:20:24,376 sort of defining market reality in that way of how 461 00:20:24,376 - > 00:20:27,976 sales teams are operating, um, how important the moment 462 00:20:28,036 - > 00:20:29,786 is as a unit of value. 463 00:20:30,266 - > 00:20:32,859 what's the cost of missing that moment, right? 464 00:20:32,859 - > 00:20:35,529 Like, I'm being very verbose with all these things. 465 00:20:35,859 - > 00:20:37,689 Why existing approaches break down. 466 00:20:38,147 - > 00:20:42,377 as AI raises expectations, um, and sort of fits 467 00:20:42,377 - > 00:20:45,037 around sales deals, it's not really reducing the 468 00:20:45,037 - > 00:20:46,817 risk of that key moment. 469 00:20:46,827 - > 00:20:49,303 So it was really fun to kind of get into the, um, you know, 470 00:20:49,303 - > 00:20:52,852 the, uh, the Raskin style of like, what, Uh, what Zuora did 471 00:20:52,862 - > 00:20:55,532 years ago, the classic sort of strategic narrative deck. 472 00:20:55,842 - > 00:20:57,792 A lot of that was a lot of the front-loaded part of 473 00:20:57,792 - > 00:21:01,412 this manifesto to make sure that like we are defining 474 00:21:01,412 - > 00:21:04,492 the market, defining the problem before we even 475 00:21:04,562 - > 00:21:07,422 start to talk about like who Hiro is and who Vivid is. 476 00:21:07,934 - > 00:21:08,884 I love that. 477 00:21:08,904 - > 00:21:11,084 Yes, and I, I'm a huge fan of the Raskin 478 00:21:11,094 - > 00:21:13,044 style of storytelling. 479 00:21:13,514 - > 00:21:16,534 And what I love about this, okay, so part of your step 480 00:21:16,534 - > 00:21:20,144 one is, it was a little bit of your onboarding, of just 481 00:21:20,144 - > 00:21:23,034 kind of learning the product, learning the company, but 482 00:21:23,034 - > 00:21:27,194 that fit really nicely into building out the, okay, 483 00:21:27,564 - > 00:21:28,584 why are we doing this? 484 00:21:28,584 - > 00:21:29,584 Who is it for? 485 00:21:29,594 - > 00:21:30,654 What are our differentiators? 486 00:21:30,654 - > 00:21:33,474 And then moving, uh, kind of into step two, um, now 487 00:21:33,474 - > 00:21:36,264 you have that outline of the manifesto, so step two is 488 00:21:36,264 - > 00:21:39,474 kind of creating that master manifesto, and all of those 489 00:21:39,474 - > 00:21:42,964 other sections that you were mentioning that go into that, 490 00:21:42,974 - > 00:21:47,000 including the filters of, does something fit or not, 491 00:21:47,260 - > 00:21:51,600 and creating that criteria really helped you narrow down 492 00:21:51,680 - > 00:21:54,890 what goes into this and what doesn't in terms of, you know, 493 00:21:55,060 - > 00:21:58,620 aspects of not necessarily that narrative, but, like, 494 00:21:58,660 - > 00:22:00,230 the manifesto itself. 495 00:22:00,891 - > 00:22:04,241 so I guess once I do all of that, assuming I've … Now 496 00:22:04,241 - > 00:22:07,882 I've, I've got my manifesto, and I'm … Now what 497 00:22:07,882 - > 00:22:09,142 do I, I do with that? 498 00:22:09,212 - > 00:22:11,602 Like it's, it's full of persona information. 499 00:22:11,602 - > 00:22:13,872 It's full of, you know, it's the narrative. 500 00:22:13,872 - > 00:22:16,899 It's, um, you mentioned a couple other things that you, 501 00:22:16,939 - > 00:22:21,789 like assets or documents that were used to kind of build 502 00:22:21,789 - > 00:22:22,719 out this Claude project. 503 00:22:22,759 - > 00:22:25,289 But like was there anything else that's more here, or are 504 00:22:25,289 - > 00:22:28,753 we ready to move on now to the next step of the process? 505 00:22:29,166 - > 00:22:29,476 Yeah. 506 00:22:29,476 - > 00:22:32,266 So the rest of the manifesto is really we get into target 507 00:22:32,266 - > 00:22:36,226 personas, we get into like the core situation, right? 508 00:22:36,236 - > 00:22:37,806 Kind of back to that Anthony Pieri thing of 509 00:22:37,806 - > 00:22:39,126 like, when do I use this? 510 00:22:39,126 - > 00:22:40,166 When's the best moment? 511 00:22:40,626 - > 00:22:42,036 Uh, I love drawing from that. 512 00:22:42,455 - > 00:22:43,965 you know, old way, new way. 513 00:22:44,265 - > 00:22:45,855 What's required to win? 514 00:22:46,165 - > 00:22:47,575 Uh, that's another section. 515 00:22:47,735 - > 00:22:49,355 How hero meets all this. 516 00:22:49,755 - > 00:22:51,065 Differentiated value. 517 00:22:51,459 - > 00:22:53,589 and then there's like proof points, evidence, 518 00:22:53,609 - > 00:22:54,619 when would I use this? 519 00:22:54,649 - > 00:22:55,899 Key messaging outpoints. 520 00:22:55,909 - > 00:22:57,309 That's all the rest of the manifesto. 521 00:22:57,709 - > 00:22:59,519 But the other two key documents, we worked on 522 00:22:59,519 - > 00:23:02,069 a, on a copy guideline that's really more about 523 00:23:02,069 - > 00:23:03,939 like how we write, right? 524 00:23:03,939 - > 00:23:05,889 How, how, what's the way that we write? 525 00:23:05,909 - > 00:23:08,089 That's a key, that's a key input for a cloud project. 526 00:23:08,616 - > 00:23:10,573 and then the third one, the one that I've really kind 527 00:23:10,573 - > 00:23:12,753 of exploded on, and, and let me kind of open that up 528 00:23:12,753 - > 00:23:15,823 so I can talk about this, is I started to really 529 00:23:15,823 - > 00:23:19,723 build, uh, this huge persona research doc in Google. 530 00:23:20,127 - > 00:23:23,796 and that was really like defining the quota-carrying 531 00:23:23,796 - > 00:23:26,076 seller under pressure is what that is. 532 00:23:26,096 - > 00:23:28,316 Like this - the, the person alone in the 533 00:23:28,316 - > 00:23:29,436 moment on the call. 534 00:23:29,986 - > 00:23:32,046 I had some early testimonials. 535 00:23:32,396 - > 00:23:34,536 I had some kind of like early ideas of who these 536 00:23:34,536 - > 00:23:38,452 people are, but then I got to use, uh, GetWise, which 537 00:23:38,452 - > 00:23:41,092 was really great for persona research and for really 538 00:23:41,092 - > 00:23:44,372 finding out what sellers are thinking in those moments. 539 00:23:44,722 - > 00:23:47,622 I went and crafted like my list of ultimate questions 540 00:23:47,632 - > 00:23:50,212 that I wanted to go ask sellers, and GetWise is an 541 00:23:50,212 - > 00:23:53,332 amazing partner for going out and conducting that research 542 00:23:53,502 - > 00:23:56,912 and finding sellers and asking them, like, for example, in 543 00:23:56,912 - > 00:23:59,787 my situation, like, " what are the two things that you 544 00:23:59,807 - > 00:24:01,467 have to do before a call?" 545 00:24:01,667 - > 00:24:03,307 Like, "What's something that you're stressed out 546 00:24:03,307 - > 00:24:06,892 about during a call?" you know, "You have five minutes 547 00:24:06,962 - > 00:24:09,162 after your call ends, like walk me through those five 548 00:24:09,162 - > 00:24:11,832 minutes." And so really getting into like what it 549 00:24:11,832 - > 00:24:13,522 looks like as a seller. 550 00:24:13,902 - > 00:24:16,592 And what I love about what Vivint's doing is investing in 551 00:24:16,592 - > 00:24:20,952 that, in that time, right, for me to do that work, because we 552 00:24:20,952 - > 00:24:24,102 can't just sit back and just assume these things, right? 553 00:24:24,112 - > 00:24:27,791 Like every person's work and role in life is 554 00:24:27,791 - > 00:24:29,141 changing all the time. 555 00:24:29,141 - > 00:24:31,461 And so I've been in past scenarios where we just 556 00:24:31,461 - > 00:24:34,501 kind of assumed we knew the persona, and I love 557 00:24:34,501 - > 00:24:38,041 that we have like this living, breathing persona 558 00:24:38,041 - > 00:24:40,841 research, of course, very, you know, inspired by, by 559 00:24:40,841 - > 00:24:43,201 Lang and, and your - the episode of the podcast that 560 00:24:43,201 - > 00:24:45,781 he did with you of how he's always talking to people. 561 00:24:46,161 - > 00:24:49,171 Um, he really got me into that of like, this is something 562 00:24:49,171 - > 00:24:50,811 that must continue to live. 563 00:24:50,811 - > 00:24:53,191 And so we did great work with GetWise that we're 564 00:24:53,191 - > 00:24:55,551 still doing, and then also my product team had an 565 00:24:55,551 - > 00:24:58,871 account with UserTesting, so devised a whole, um 566 00:24:59,187 - > 00:25:00,317 devised a whole survey. 567 00:25:00,687 - > 00:25:03,897 Um, and I go and I get 25 people, uh, every day 568 00:25:04,257 - > 00:25:07,457 answering those questions for me, bringing those results in. 569 00:25:07,457 - > 00:25:09,747 I have sellers from, from all over the world kind of 570 00:25:09,747 - > 00:25:10,897 telling me about their day. 571 00:25:11,450 - > 00:25:14,167 it's just amazing with these different sources of, of 572 00:25:14,167 - > 00:25:16,707 folks kind of coming in and, and really getting this like 573 00:25:16,727 - > 00:25:20,127 ultimate idea of like what is it like to be a seller? 574 00:25:20,497 - > 00:25:22,327 And then what that does for us, sorry, this is a 575 00:25:22,337 - > 00:25:25,197 long answer made longer, is it st- helps us start 576 00:25:25,197 - > 00:25:28,627 to really look at like what are the industries where 577 00:25:28,627 - > 00:25:30,497 we really are the best? 578 00:25:30,587 - > 00:25:33,177 Because that's the second assumption companies make is, 579 00:25:33,437 - > 00:25:36,067 "Oh, I already know the person I'm selling to," and then, 580 00:25:36,137 - > 00:25:40,589 "Oh, I already know like where these people work," right? 581 00:25:40,589 - > 00:25:42,899 The types of companies these people work at. 582 00:25:43,219 - > 00:25:45,399 And we're really finding incredible information 583 00:25:45,399 - > 00:25:48,039 by talking to people about these industries 584 00:25:48,039 - > 00:25:49,869 that we can actually be really great for that we 585 00:25:49,869 - > 00:25:51,649 weren't fully aware of. 586 00:25:52,139 - > 00:25:54,909 So, I mean, it's just great that Vivint is investing 587 00:25:54,909 - > 00:25:55,869 in all this research. 588 00:25:56,270 - > 00:25:57,010 I love that. 589 00:25:57,020 - > 00:25:57,490 Okay. 590 00:25:57,650 - > 00:25:59,540 And I think I misunderstood something, but I'm much 591 00:25:59,540 - > 00:26:00,830 more clearer on it now. 592 00:26:00,960 - > 00:26:02,590 So actually I'm very grateful that you went 593 00:26:02,630 - > 00:26:03,680 very deep on that answer. 594 00:26:03,680 - > 00:26:07,820 So you started with, and r- I do a lot of parroting 595 00:26:07,840 - > 00:26:09,630 back because I wanna make sure that I'm following the 596 00:26:09,630 - > 00:26:12,330 story right and that I'm, I'm getting the playbook right. 597 00:26:12,330 - > 00:26:16,900 So you started with kind of like an outline of the why 598 00:26:16,900 - > 00:26:19,360 we're doing this, who's it for, you know, the benefits 599 00:26:19,360 - > 00:26:20,080 ladder, all of that. 600 00:26:20,420 - > 00:26:22,860 Then step two is kind of like, okay, now that turns into the 601 00:26:22,860 - > 00:26:25,280 manifesto, and the manifesto is this deep research 602 00:26:25,300 - > 00:26:28,825 on, maybe a, bits of like the market and 603 00:26:28,935 - > 00:26:31,645 why now and scenarios. 604 00:26:32,025 - > 00:26:34,725 But you have a completely separate document that's just 605 00:26:34,735 - > 00:26:37,825 for personas, and I love that you do that, and I appreciate 606 00:26:37,825 - > 00:26:41,165 you shouting out some tools that are helpful for doing 607 00:26:41,165 - > 00:26:43,665 that faster, and some of the tools you mentioned I have 608 00:26:43,675 - > 00:26:47,045 also used and love, and so can attest that they are really 609 00:26:47,255 - > 00:26:49,275 great tools, um, to use. 610 00:26:49,793 - > 00:26:52,843 and so now that I've, I've, let's just say that I've done 611 00:26:52,843 - > 00:26:55,913 all that deep research and like, yes, extra shout-out 612 00:26:55,913 - > 00:27:00,883 for Lang because it's, he's so right in the number… You 613 00:27:00,893 - > 00:27:04,524 have to be constantly talking to customers, and it's, you 614 00:27:04,524 - > 00:27:09,094 know, before AI, it was really hard to find time to do that. 615 00:27:09,104 - > 00:27:10,474 You had to make time for it, and it was 616 00:27:10,474 - > 00:27:11,444 quite a lot of effort. 617 00:27:11,744 - > 00:27:14,824 Now you can have these always-on systems and 618 00:27:14,834 - > 00:27:18,758 be constantly, maybe not necessarily, FaceTime with a 619 00:27:18,758 - > 00:27:22,662 customer, but at least having those always-on surveys while 620 00:27:22,662 - > 00:27:26,952 supplementing with smaller, more intimate one-on-one 621 00:27:26,952 - > 00:27:29,752 conversations is so helpful. 622 00:27:30,566 - > 00:27:33,196 so back to like, you know, actually I guess the next 623 00:27:33,196 - > 00:27:35,666 step would be like building the Claude project, and I 624 00:27:35,666 - > 00:27:37,336 just wanna make sure that I have like the documents 625 00:27:37,336 - > 00:27:39,036 that I should have in the Claude projects, right? 626 00:27:39,046 - > 00:27:42,312 You had the manifesto, which was like the deep research 627 00:27:42,312 - > 00:27:45,502 on like the product and the market, um, and the company 628 00:27:45,502 - > 00:27:48,532 and why it all fits so well together and why now. 629 00:27:48,906 - > 00:27:51,526 and then I'm not sure if this was in the, in the manifesto 630 00:27:51,536 - > 00:27:53,906 or if it's in the persona doc, but then you had like, 631 00:27:54,276 - > 00:27:56,447 you talked about the persona doc, and you talked about like 632 00:27:56,787 - > 00:28:01,858 very deep research like around emotional benefits and, um, 633 00:28:01,868 - > 00:28:05,748 functional benefits, but then also scenarios where you win 634 00:28:05,748 - > 00:28:09,658 and use cases where you win and all of that good stuff. 635 00:28:10,058 - > 00:28:13,678 And then you also had like a tone of voice document, 636 00:28:13,698 - > 00:28:15,998 like a writing style document, which was helpful. 637 00:28:15,998 - > 00:28:19,368 You had the narrative that your CMO already got with all 638 00:28:19,368 - > 00:28:20,868 the executives in the room. 639 00:28:21,363 - > 00:28:22,561 Those are the four that I could think of. 640 00:28:22,561 - > 00:28:23,981 Is there anything else that should go into 641 00:28:23,981 - > 00:28:25,772 this Claude project? 642 00:28:26,394 - > 00:28:28,184 No, those are the right ones, and I, I don't wanna 643 00:28:28,234 - > 00:28:29,844 take us on a tangent, but you're reminding me of 644 00:28:29,844 - > 00:28:32,154 something really important with this persona research. 645 00:28:32,154 - > 00:28:36,139 Like, what's great is like in this day, persona 646 00:28:36,139 - > 00:28:38,359 research is no longer like a vanity project. 647 00:28:38,649 - > 00:28:42,929 What's amazing is that I can take 20 documents of 648 00:28:42,949 - > 00:28:46,689 transcripts of conversations and like spreadsheets that 649 00:28:46,689 - > 00:28:49,419 I get from user testing and like all the downloads from 650 00:28:49,479 - > 00:28:54,392 GetWise, and I can throw them all in to, a separate 651 00:28:54,462 - > 00:28:58,149 project and be like, "Okay, tell me all about sellers." 652 00:28:58,179 - > 00:28:59,809 Like I no longer have to like sit there late at 653 00:28:59,809 - > 00:29:02,909 night like taking notes off of like, I mean, what - I 654 00:29:02,909 - > 00:29:03,569 don't know what people did 655 00:29:03,569 - > 00:29:06,449 like 15 years ago, but it's like everything just comes 656 00:29:06,449 - > 00:29:08,619 together and gives me like the, the full picture. 657 00:29:09,079 - > 00:29:12,159 And that to me is great because what I'm doing now 658 00:29:12,159 - > 00:29:14,449 is I'm, I'm coming with gifts to my product team. 659 00:29:15,106 - > 00:29:17,071 that's what's so funny about product marketing is like 660 00:29:17,071 - > 00:29:19,451 one of the core things that we need to do as a company 661 00:29:19,691 - > 00:29:24,171 is be giving market signal to the product team, right? 662 00:29:24,241 - > 00:29:26,851 And so now we can do it in this like really great way. 663 00:29:26,851 - > 00:29:29,721 So, but you laid it all out, like it's the messaging 664 00:29:29,721 - > 00:29:32,601 framework, it's the persona doc, it's the copy guideline. 665 00:29:33,021 - > 00:29:35,841 Um, these are all the big players in my Claude project. 666 00:29:35,881 - > 00:29:39,121 And then what I'm doing is, 'cause I'm always nervous 667 00:29:39,421 - > 00:29:42,311 about hallucinations or something, is I'm like 668 00:29:42,371 - > 00:29:46,291 taking my persona research and I'm saying, "Okay, how's 669 00:29:46,291 - > 00:29:48,431 my messaging framework? Like, are we still right 670 00:29:48,431 - > 00:29:50,621 on? Are we still talking the right language?" 671 00:29:50,621 - > 00:29:50,881 And So 672 00:29:50,881 - > 00:29:52,631 everything's getting like these like feedback 673 00:29:52,631 - > 00:29:54,151 loops that I'm doing. 674 00:29:54,151 - > 00:29:57,076 I'm always kind of doing like a, like a BS test 675 00:29:57,126 - > 00:29:59,376 on everything, like making sure everything's 676 00:29:59,376 - > 00:30:00,506 like still copacetic. 677 00:30:01,356 - > 00:30:02,136 I love that. 678 00:30:02,186 - > 00:30:03,486 Question about the feedback loops. 679 00:30:03,553 - > 00:30:09,221 is that purely human, or do you have AI help you or assist 680 00:30:09,221 - > 00:30:10,251 with the feedback loops? 681 00:30:10,808 - > 00:30:11,478 Well, it's funny. 682 00:30:11,478 - > 00:30:15,154 I'll do things like I'll take my project and I'll take 683 00:30:15,154 - > 00:30:17,094 a whole bunch of research and I'll be like, "Here's a 684 00:30:17,094 - > 00:30:19,454 bunch of research. What do you think about the messaging 685 00:30:19,454 - > 00:30:22,514 framework?" And I'll kind of get like a, a summary back. 686 00:30:23,214 - > 00:30:24,584 And then I'll look at the summary and I'll 687 00:30:24,584 - > 00:30:26,564 get to kind of critique it and judge it, right? 688 00:30:26,574 - > 00:30:28,214 And I'll be like, "Actually, that's okay. 689 00:30:28,624 - > 00:30:30,804 Okay, give me a couple line items to change there." 690 00:30:30,844 - > 00:30:34,244 And, and so there is that discerning eye, and it makes 691 00:30:34,384 - > 00:30:38,104 me very grateful to be at this stage in my career 692 00:30:38,484 - > 00:30:42,034 where I've got some years of experience in this field and 693 00:30:42,034 - > 00:30:45,674 I can sort of see how things are feeling and I can, I can 694 00:30:45,694 - > 00:30:48,764 see where, where, you know, I've got my areas of drift. 695 00:30:49,204 - > 00:30:50,494 The tools aren't perfect either. 696 00:30:50,524 - > 00:30:51,924 Claude's got a little bit of drift. 697 00:30:51,934 - > 00:30:53,894 And so kind of working together and kind of 698 00:30:53,894 - > 00:30:54,894 finding that spot. 699 00:30:55,322 - > 00:30:58,365 but I think part of what makes it all work and w- I think why 700 00:30:58,365 - > 00:31:01,255 we're so lucky if you've got, um, a little bit of experience 701 00:31:01,255 - > 00:31:04,455 is like that you can kind of see that, that space 702 00:31:04,485 - > 00:31:06,975 of where, uh, where to fix things and where to le- let 703 00:31:06,975 - > 00:31:09,785 things go and, and you know, it's the writer and then you 704 00:31:09,785 - > 00:31:11,245 get to be the editor, Right. 705 00:31:11,863 - > 00:31:12,253 Right. 706 00:31:12,323 - > 00:31:13,023 Absolutely. 707 00:31:13,073 - > 00:31:16,643 And I love that, um, you called out n- the experience 708 00:31:16,643 - > 00:31:21,263 that's required to have that discerning eye when you're 709 00:31:21,293 - > 00:31:23,473 critiquing the AI output. 710 00:31:23,893 - > 00:31:25,148 and it's so valuable. 711 00:31:25,158 - > 00:31:29,659 I say that to all, junior PMMs or PMMs who are just 712 00:31:29,659 - > 00:31:31,729 making - or y- if you're making a career pivot or 713 00:31:31,729 - > 00:31:36,083 whatever, to make sure that you build the craft and then 714 00:31:36,083 - > 00:31:38,696 use AI to 10X, your value. 715 00:31:38,806 - > 00:31:43,116 But you have to have the experience so you know what 716 00:31:43,116 - > 00:31:47,386 good looks like, so that when Claude or ChatGPT, whoever, 717 00:31:47,426 - > 00:31:51,416 like whatever AI tool of choice gives you a deliverable 718 00:31:51,416 - > 00:31:54,276 or an output, you can say like, "No, not good enough. 719 00:31:54,276 - > 00:31:55,056 No, that's not right? 720 00:31:55,056 - > 00:31:58,716 That's missing XYZ." So I totally agree with that. 721 00:31:59,273 - > 00:32:02,504 okay, so let's get back to our playbook. 722 00:32:02,594 - > 00:32:04,205 So I have the Claude project. 723 00:32:04,205 - > 00:32:06,429 it's built with all of those, core documents. 724 00:32:06,925 - > 00:32:08,298 What do I do now? 725 00:32:08,298 - > 00:32:11,208 I can just use it for whatever kind of like 726 00:32:11,218 - > 00:32:12,908 deliverables I want to use. 727 00:32:12,908 - > 00:32:15,278 Like give me, give me some examples of like how you 728 00:32:15,278 - > 00:32:17,680 used your, Claude project to get some deliverables 729 00:32:18,250 - > 00:32:20,619 for this big shift for the company's narrative. 730 00:32:21,301 - > 00:32:21,811 Yeah, absolutely. 731 00:32:21,811 - > 00:32:24,902 So before I was able to really go use it, had to get all 732 00:32:24,902 - > 00:32:26,062 that stakeholder approval. 733 00:32:26,472 - > 00:32:30,752 So what I did was I took this framework and I threw it, 734 00:32:30,830 - > 00:32:32,588 into, uh, make me a deck. 735 00:32:33,008 - > 00:32:36,178 Like make me a deck that argues for how important 736 00:32:36,178 - > 00:32:38,828 this was and let me get executive sign-off 737 00:32:38,838 - > 00:32:39,808 from everybody, right? 738 00:32:39,808 - > 00:32:42,555 So it's so important to get that weigh-in from the 739 00:32:42,555 - > 00:32:44,765 different folks, like from the product team, like 740 00:32:44,825 - > 00:32:46,085 are the claims accurate? 741 00:32:46,495 - > 00:32:48,655 From the sales team, like does this match how my 742 00:32:48,655 - > 00:32:49,925 conversations are going? 743 00:32:50,275 - > 00:32:53,535 Like from leadership, does this reflect our strategy? 744 00:32:53,945 - > 00:32:56,622 And then from the design team too of like, can we 745 00:32:56,622 - > 00:32:58,222 really express this visually? 746 00:32:58,785 - > 00:33:01,155 I own the framework, but it's so important that 747 00:33:01,155 - > 00:33:02,445 everyone's bought in, right? 748 00:33:02,445 - > 00:33:03,985 You've got to have that buy-in. 749 00:33:03,985 - > 00:33:05,855 And so that meeting went really well. 750 00:33:05,875 - > 00:33:09,525 I really, uh, focused on the sort of that image 751 00:33:09,525 - > 00:33:12,775 of like, ducks kind of flying in formation and 752 00:33:12,775 - > 00:33:13,675 how important that is. 753 00:33:13,675 - > 00:33:16,835 And I'm such a big believer that like a good company 754 00:33:17,305 - > 00:33:19,845 has a message and a differentiated value, but 755 00:33:19,845 - > 00:33:24,318 a great company, has the ability to make everybody 756 00:33:24,662 - > 00:33:26,958 fly in the same formation. 757 00:33:27,388 - > 00:33:28,428 That's that extra thing. 758 00:33:28,428 - > 00:33:31,015 And what I get excited about is like, I feel like it's 759 00:33:31,015 - > 00:33:34,795 never been easier to have that formation because we've got 760 00:33:34,795 - > 00:33:37,615 these guardrails that we're working with and these, these 761 00:33:37,635 - > 00:33:41,008 tools that kind of have that little bit of smarts to them. 762 00:33:41,008 - > 00:33:42,468 I mean, they're, they're getting better all the 763 00:33:42,468 - > 00:33:46,072 time, but like it's so exciting to be able to, 764 00:33:46,072 - > 00:33:49,282 uh, you know, 3X my work with something like Claude. 765 00:33:49,382 - > 00:33:51,872 And, um, you know, I'm definitely not a person who 766 00:33:51,872 - > 00:33:55,212 is building like autonomous agents or things that are just 767 00:33:55,212 - > 00:33:56,272 like going out and doing work. 768 00:33:56,282 - > 00:33:58,052 I really do have to be involved. 769 00:33:58,401 - > 00:34:01,665 and when I write a blog using these tools, I am, 770 00:34:02,125 - > 00:34:05,475 you know, giving my thought leadership to the tool, 771 00:34:05,835 - > 00:34:07,955 tweaking, making sure it is what I want it to be. 772 00:34:07,955 - > 00:34:09,835 But, back to your question and give you some examples of 773 00:34:09,835 - > 00:34:12,925 what we do, you know, I can go into an analyst conversation 774 00:34:12,925 - > 00:34:15,575 and say, "Hey, I'm gonna be talking to an analyst at 775 00:34:15,575 - > 00:34:18,952 Forrester. I wanna be really clear about what we do with 776 00:34:18,952 - > 00:34:22,438 them, uh, to them, and I wanna like get their advice 777 00:34:22,488 - > 00:34:25,048 and I wanna see how they see the market, but I want 778 00:34:25,068 - > 00:34:28,808 to, you know, really clearly represent what we are and 779 00:34:28,808 - > 00:34:30,168 get feedback back from them." 780 00:34:30,668 - > 00:34:33,128 And that's the kind of work that would take you all day, 781 00:34:33,468 - > 00:34:36,798 and instead it takes you, you know, 15, 20 minutes, 782 00:34:36,798 - > 00:34:38,538 'cause of course I go back and forth a couple times. 783 00:34:39,118 - > 00:34:41,314 But then Another amazing thing about the research 784 00:34:41,334 - > 00:34:44,761 is you know, I can, I can write a blog on why the 785 00:34:44,761 - > 00:34:46,311 moment is so important. 786 00:34:46,751 - > 00:34:48,761 But what I love is what, what's better about that, 787 00:34:48,781 - > 00:34:52,491 what Google and the LLMs wanna see, is they wanna see all the 788 00:34:52,491 - > 00:34:56,021 research I've done informing that opinion on our blog. 789 00:34:56,331 - > 00:34:59,211 And so, of course, all of this has started with Claude 790 00:34:59,231 - > 00:35:03,041 and like I get a first draft, I read it, I make changes. 791 00:35:03,241 - > 00:35:05,081 So we're kind of like going back and forth, 792 00:35:05,101 - > 00:35:06,271 new draft, new draft. 793 00:35:06,641 - > 00:35:09,031 When I get it to a pretty good point, then I give it an edit. 794 00:35:09,235 - > 00:35:12,001 but I love that it's like always sort of running off 795 00:35:12,001 - > 00:35:16,741 the DNA of who we are, how we talk, what our message is. 796 00:35:16,751 - > 00:35:19,181 It's like that's the starting point. 797 00:35:19,304 - > 00:35:20,364 sort of a side tangent. 798 00:35:20,724 - > 00:35:23,604 The product that we built is for sellers on the call. 799 00:35:23,624 - > 00:35:26,334 It's of course it's built on AI, and one of the big 800 00:35:26,334 - > 00:35:28,554 things we built was this sales reasoning model. 801 00:35:28,554 - > 00:35:31,454 And what this is doing is something that we, uh, that 802 00:35:31,454 - > 00:35:34,614 we talk about a lot, is that it's helping sellers 803 00:35:34,884 - > 00:35:38,938 avoid hallucinations because it's keeping you, away from 804 00:35:38,938 - > 00:35:42,028 like the hops that happen when you are too far from 805 00:35:42,028 - > 00:35:43,678 the source material, right? 806 00:35:43,678 - > 00:35:45,498 When you kind of go too far down the line, 807 00:35:45,593 - > 00:35:46,321 and they all do it. 808 00:35:46,321 - > 00:35:48,321 And so what's amazing about this reasoning model that 809 00:35:48,321 - > 00:35:50,351 we built into our product is that it's really keeping 810 00:35:50,351 - > 00:35:51,621 those hallucinations at bay. 811 00:35:52,031 - > 00:35:53,571 And I think I'm doing a little bit of the same 812 00:35:53,581 - > 00:35:56,381 thing in a marketing angle by always having this 813 00:35:56,381 - > 00:35:59,881 framework as my starting point for everything I do. 814 00:36:00,376 - > 00:36:02,766 Yeah, it's - keeping everything grounded, and 815 00:36:02,766 - > 00:36:05,046 I loved the visual that you explained when you 816 00:36:05,046 - > 00:36:09,116 went into that stakeholder meeting of ducks flying 817 00:36:09,426 - > 00:36:11,366 together synchronously. 818 00:36:11,996 - > 00:36:12,466 Yeah 819 00:36:12,466 - > 00:36:15,376 it's a strong visual, and it's one that y- you know, 820 00:36:15,707 - > 00:36:18,997 I would say everyone, every millennial or '90s kid who 821 00:36:18,997 - > 00:36:20,647 remembers Mighty Ducks, that's 822 00:36:21,998 - > 00:36:22,388 Yeah 823 00:36:22,388 - > 00:36:24,157 that's exactly where my brain went to. 824 00:36:24,157 - > 00:36:27,717 But it's such a strong, like, you know, spirited, 825 00:36:27,727 - > 00:36:30,397 rallying the team, getting everybody on board. 826 00:36:30,397 - > 00:36:34,895 I imagine that was a helpful anecdote as you're trying 827 00:36:35,005 - > 00:36:36,775 to explain your thinking. 828 00:36:37,015 - > 00:36:39,395 And you mentioned, uh, I really appreciate, too, 829 00:36:39,395 - > 00:36:41,815 that you brought in the reasons why you think 830 00:36:41,815 - > 00:36:43,255 that meeting went so well. 831 00:36:43,635 - > 00:36:47,675 And a lot of that was because you did the foundational 832 00:36:47,685 - > 00:36:52,825 work in the manifesto, and you were just able to do it 833 00:36:52,825 - > 00:36:56,445 quicker with, um, this Claude project that you built. 834 00:36:56,775 - > 00:36:59,915 So now coming back to, and, and I also appreciate the 835 00:37:00,055 - > 00:37:01,145 examples that you gave, too. 836 00:37:01,205 - > 00:37:05,055 I can attest, like prepping for like a, a Gartner analyst 837 00:37:05,055 - > 00:37:07,595 call can take a long time. 838 00:37:08,985 - > 00:37:11,815 So brilliant use of your Claude project. 839 00:37:12,135 - > 00:37:13,845 Um, okay. 840 00:37:13,865 - > 00:37:15,955 So coming back to our playbook, I have 841 00:37:15,955 - > 00:37:16,945 the Claude project. 842 00:37:17,185 - > 00:37:19,445 Now I, um, you mentioned the feedback loops. 843 00:37:19,445 - > 00:37:22,825 Okay, so I build out like the deck, um, for like, 844 00:37:22,835 - > 00:37:24,725 you know, all the things that I wanna do with this 845 00:37:24,725 - > 00:37:27,865 big narrative and like the, the shift for the company. 846 00:37:28,605 - > 00:37:30,865 I get buy-in from all of my stakeholders 847 00:37:30,865 - > 00:37:31,935 and the executives. 848 00:37:32,355 - > 00:37:33,905 Is, is that kind of the end of the story? 849 00:37:33,905 - > 00:37:35,475 Now I just… Is it launch time? 850 00:37:35,475 - > 00:37:36,865 I mean, what do I do next? 851 00:37:37,641 - > 00:37:38,091 Yeah. 852 00:37:38,091 - > 00:37:40,041 So kind of what's happening next? 853 00:37:40,091 - > 00:37:43,981 is, yeah, you've got this framework, the team 854 00:37:43,981 - > 00:37:46,761 loves it, and now, like, it's going into action. 855 00:37:47,191 - > 00:37:50,681 So we're putting it into our booth messaging because 856 00:37:50,681 - > 00:37:52,781 we're doing a ton of events in the next couple months. 857 00:37:53,181 - > 00:37:56,371 We're putting it into our website 'cause we just 858 00:37:56,371 - > 00:37:57,241 launched that whole website. 859 00:37:57,241 - > 00:38:00,221 So like, for example, on the website, those pages that 860 00:38:00,221 - > 00:38:01,251 are really tough, right? 861 00:38:01,251 - > 00:38:03,521 Where it's like, "Hey, we need a page talking to 862 00:38:03,521 - > 00:38:06,741 sellers. We need a page talking to sales managers. 863 00:38:07,011 - > 00:38:11,311 We need a page comparing us to Gong, comparing us 864 00:38:11,311 - > 00:38:15,051 to Agent Force." All those things become so much easier 865 00:38:15,051 - > 00:38:18,831 with Claude when I can go find, like in a comparison 866 00:38:18,831 - > 00:38:20,481 page that I love, right? 867 00:38:20,491 - > 00:38:22,071 'Cause there's so many great examples out there. 868 00:38:22,071 - > 00:38:24,751 Like we all follow the, the great, um, you know, 869 00:38:24,751 - > 00:38:26,901 product marketing, uh, emails and stuff, and 870 00:38:26,901 - > 00:38:29,661 sometimes they, they give you incredible comparison pages. 871 00:38:29,661 - > 00:38:32,331 So you go get these comparison pages, you download that, 872 00:38:32,631 - > 00:38:34,391 you throw that into your project, and you just 873 00:38:34,391 - > 00:38:39,941 say, "I want a comparison page for Hiro," and boom. 874 00:38:40,181 - > 00:38:41,941 And it's like, cool, I have a first draft. 875 00:38:42,101 - > 00:38:46,211 Like, because it knows who I am and it knows what 876 00:38:46,211 - > 00:38:47,091 I want to get to, right? 877 00:38:47,091 - > 00:38:49,511 It's got the A and the Z, which is so cool. 878 00:38:49,811 - > 00:38:52,871 So that's a really great example of like how to 879 00:38:52,871 - > 00:38:55,781 use this kind of thing, um, is in all these pages. 880 00:38:55,891 - > 00:38:58,261 And then, but also we're going out and we're doing 881 00:38:58,261 - > 00:39:00,121 billboards and we're doing stuff like that. 882 00:39:00,161 - > 00:39:02,651 And so that's where the research thing comes back in, 883 00:39:02,651 - > 00:39:05,721 because I can come up with a billboard idea, and I think 884 00:39:05,721 - > 00:39:07,381 something that we're probably gonna talk about in a little 885 00:39:07,381 - > 00:39:11,011 bit is one of the pieces where humans are still very 886 00:39:11,011 - > 00:39:12,141 important in what we're doing. 887 00:39:12,711 - > 00:39:13,811 Uh, and that's a big one. 888 00:39:14,081 - > 00:39:16,771 When it comes to creative ideas, I had to come 889 00:39:16,771 - > 00:39:18,331 up with the billboards completely myself. 890 00:39:18,751 - > 00:39:24,241 Like AI is not going to come up with s- five perfect 891 00:39:24,241 - > 00:39:26,111 words to put on a billboard. 892 00:39:26,521 - > 00:39:28,101 Like that's the human touch. 893 00:39:28,101 - > 00:39:32,681 They're just, they're, they don't get puns and pop 894 00:39:32,721 - > 00:39:36,851 culture and the visceral reactions that humans have. 895 00:39:36,881 - > 00:39:40,991 They don't get those things, but they can, you 896 00:39:40,991 - > 00:39:43,261 know, they can help you write a blog on whether you 897 00:39:43,261 - > 00:39:46,731 should build an AI sales teammate or buy one, right? 898 00:39:46,761 - > 00:39:49,111 And, and they can sort of help you with like long form 899 00:39:49,111 - > 00:39:52,401 content, and you still need to apply a flavor to that. 900 00:39:53,031 - > 00:39:54,601 Uh, but that's what's interesting, I think. 901 00:39:54,621 - > 00:39:56,811 That's kind of that, that back and forth difference. 902 00:39:58,049 - > 00:39:59,229 I totally agree. 903 00:39:59,249 - > 00:40:05,099 Yes, like having the human touch on copy editing, and 904 00:40:05,119 - > 00:40:07,449 especially on short form copy. 905 00:40:07,819 - > 00:40:11,969 To your point, AI is really good at like hacking 906 00:40:11,969 - > 00:40:13,979 systems, and I don't mean that in a creepy way. 907 00:40:14,049 - > 00:40:19,059 I mean that in like, uh, knowing how to put 908 00:40:19,059 - > 00:40:22,519 together a blog to optimize for SEO, AEO, et cetera. 909 00:40:22,659 - > 00:40:24,869 That is something that I think AI would be really 910 00:40:24,869 - > 00:40:25,879 good in assisting you with. 911 00:40:26,179 - > 00:40:31,204 But knowing the exact words to put on a billboard 912 00:40:31,254 - > 00:40:34,034 that you're not gonna have tracking metrics on that. 913 00:40:34,084 - > 00:40:36,634 Like there's not… I mean, maybe you'd put up like a, uh, 914 00:40:37,134 - > 00:40:40,524 if you did something really crazy, you know, maybe there'd 915 00:40:40,524 - > 00:40:42,574 be a way to like, you know, with a QR code or something. 916 00:40:42,814 - > 00:40:45,264 Not saying you'd ever do that, but generally 917 00:40:45,264 - > 00:40:50,474 speaking, very hard to track the, um, you know, 918 00:40:50,704 - > 00:40:52,254 outputs of, of billboards. 919 00:40:52,264 - > 00:40:56,564 So I think things that are measurable, trackable with a 920 00:40:56,564 - > 00:40:59,214 digital footprint, those are things that AI is gonna be 921 00:40:59,264 - > 00:41:01,724 like probably better able to assist you with, because at 922 00:41:01,724 - > 00:41:04,194 the end of the day, it's all like prediction models, right? 923 00:41:04,654 - > 00:41:08,364 So that's, that's why I would lean heavier 924 00:41:08,364 - > 00:41:10,964 into for like more like the long form content. 925 00:41:11,274 - > 00:41:12,384 So it makes perfect sense. 926 00:41:12,914 - > 00:41:14,754 I have a quick question that I, I should have 927 00:41:14,754 - > 00:41:15,364 asked you earlier. 928 00:41:15,364 - > 00:41:18,504 When you went into that meeting with, um, the 929 00:41:18,504 - > 00:41:22,794 stakeholders, did you… What you were presenting 930 00:41:22,794 - > 00:41:25,484 to them, was it like the framework that you built 931 00:41:25,484 - > 00:41:29,184 with Claude with specifically like the narrative 932 00:41:29,184 - > 00:41:30,064 that you were driving? 933 00:41:30,114 - > 00:41:32,614 Like what ex- or, or was it just in general, was 934 00:41:32,614 - > 00:41:34,784 it not really Claude and the AI tools, it was kind 935 00:41:34,784 - > 00:41:36,984 of like just the narrative and more about the story? 936 00:41:37,488 - > 00:41:38,528 this was a pretty short deck. 937 00:41:38,528 - > 00:41:39,648 This was like nine slides. 938 00:41:40,081 - > 00:41:43,021 my first slide was really reminding the team that 939 00:41:43,021 - > 00:41:45,641 we had already aligned on a strategic narrative, 940 00:41:46,211 - > 00:41:47,361 which is huge, right? 941 00:41:47,431 - > 00:41:50,611 Come into the room and show like, "Look, we all 942 00:41:50,611 - > 00:41:53,611 know where we're going." What a huge step that is. 943 00:41:53,611 - > 00:41:57,531 What a lucky step that I have to start with in a company. 944 00:41:57,731 - > 00:41:59,241 I have that, that's number one. 945 00:41:59,431 - > 00:42:02,791 Number two, I have an awesome CMO who has a huge product 946 00:42:02,811 - > 00:42:05,771 marketing background of his own, so kind of knows what 947 00:42:05,781 - > 00:42:07,011 good looks like with this. 948 00:42:07,421 - > 00:42:09,681 Uh, and then we have a team who's like willing to invest a 949 00:42:09,681 - > 00:42:13,951 product marketer's like first month in doing this work. 950 00:42:14,231 - > 00:42:15,371 So those are huge. 951 00:42:15,371 - > 00:42:17,281 So it's just reminding them that like we're starting 952 00:42:17,281 - > 00:42:18,181 from the same spot. 953 00:42:18,842 - > 00:42:20,096 The next thing is kind of talking about 954 00:42:20,096 - > 00:42:20,946 some of the urgency. 955 00:42:20,956 - > 00:42:23,876 So what's funny about a deck like this is it's kind 956 00:42:23,876 - > 00:42:26,586 of like its own strategic narrative deck, where I'm 957 00:42:26,586 - > 00:42:28,696 kind of talking about the threats in the world, right? 958 00:42:29,026 - > 00:42:31,646 And one of those threats is like how LLMs are gonna define 959 00:42:31,646 - > 00:42:35,514 us and how we have to show up super consistently, to make 960 00:42:35,514 - > 00:42:37,114 sure that we're showing up in the right way when people 961 00:42:37,114 - > 00:42:38,524 t- uh, ask about us in LLM. 962 00:42:38,534 - > 00:42:39,864 So that was something we didn't really talk 963 00:42:39,874 - > 00:42:41,984 about in this episode, but that's a huge one. 964 00:42:42,384 - > 00:42:43,744 And then getting into how 965 00:42:44,178 - > 00:42:45,718 Ooh, I really love that one 966 00:42:46,096 - > 00:42:46,386 Yeah. 967 00:42:46,406 - > 00:42:48,696 Is - A positioning framework is how we are going 968 00:42:48,696 - > 00:42:50,536 to solve that problem. 969 00:42:50,996 - > 00:42:52,236 Um, that's my third slide. 970 00:42:52,266 - > 00:42:56,106 My next slide is a one-pager on what the framework 971 00:42:56,116 - > 00:42:59,416 is, where it's the market condition, who it's for, 972 00:42:59,786 - > 00:43:02,876 the situation we're solving, what our positioning is, 973 00:43:03,096 - > 00:43:04,156 what makes us different. 974 00:43:04,426 - > 00:43:05,746 Like, that's it. 975 00:43:05,946 - > 00:43:07,206 Just one page. 976 00:43:07,266 - > 00:43:09,656 Everyone stares at it, everyone feels good about it. 977 00:43:10,379 - > 00:43:13,539 and then my next slide was kind of a comparison 978 00:43:13,549 - > 00:43:16,459 thing of what that looks like in practice. 979 00:43:16,749 - > 00:43:18,979 And so it was a comparison slide, a table. 980 00:43:19,529 - > 00:43:22,029 I think tables are always great on a, on a deck. 981 00:43:22,369 - > 00:43:24,379 Um, but like a before and after kind of table where 982 00:43:24,379 - > 00:43:26,829 it's like, what's the market doing now, right? 983 00:43:27,089 - > 00:43:28,779 Most tools are recording your call. 984 00:43:28,849 - > 00:43:30,209 Gong records your call. 985 00:43:30,819 - > 00:43:31,179 Great. 986 00:43:31,469 - > 00:43:32,249 What are we doing? 987 00:43:32,569 - > 00:43:35,349 We're in the call with you, right? 988 00:43:35,349 - > 00:43:37,499 So it's like this sort of comparison thing about like 989 00:43:37,499 - > 00:43:40,849 what we're going after, the, um, what's the status quo that 990 00:43:40,849 - > 00:43:44,019 we're really having to, uh, face when it comes to like 991 00:43:44,039 - > 00:43:46,839 how we talk about ourselves versus things like, like Gong. 992 00:43:47,409 - > 00:43:51,369 Um, so the next one is kind of laying out how the 993 00:43:51,369 - > 00:43:53,419 different teams are gonna use this framework, right? 994 00:43:53,419 - > 00:43:57,049 Like the executive staff invested in this, so 995 00:43:57,049 - > 00:43:58,609 how's it gonna assimilate out to the team? 996 00:43:58,609 - > 00:44:01,239 And I sort of lay out how sales is gonna use it, how 997 00:44:01,239 - > 00:44:04,149 the marketing team is using it, how the product team 998 00:44:04,149 - > 00:44:06,269 is gonna be using it to kind of develop roadmap and 999 00:44:06,269 - > 00:44:08,379 features and all those things. 1000 00:44:08,379 - > 00:44:10,749 And so that was kind of that thing I laid out earlier 1001 00:44:10,749 - > 00:44:13,929 about, you know, the shared test of does it help a 1002 00:44:13,929 - > 00:44:16,409 seller prepare, respond, or follow through when 1003 00:44:16,409 - > 00:44:17,449 the moment is on, right? 1004 00:44:17,449 - > 00:44:19,219 That's kind of like one of our big litmus tests. 1005 00:44:19,889 - > 00:44:23,779 Um, the next slide in this executive buy-in framework 1006 00:44:24,139 - > 00:44:28,899 was, you know, how we keep the gap closed between 1007 00:44:29,289 - > 00:44:32,319 what the LLMs think we are and what we actually are. 1008 00:44:32,349 - > 00:44:34,569 And so it was kind of laying out how we're 1009 00:44:34,569 - > 00:44:35,519 gonna do that, right? 1010 00:44:35,539 - > 00:44:39,009 Where we're gonna use this system, what the content 1011 00:44:39,039 - > 00:44:41,249 is that we're gonna build, how we're gonna reinforce 1012 00:44:41,249 - > 00:44:42,379 these things every quarter. 1013 00:44:42,619 - > 00:44:45,559 It's kind of like a contract to the executive staff 1014 00:44:45,569 - > 00:44:48,159 to show them that this is not just like a, a, a 1015 00:44:48,159 - > 00:44:50,409 dog and pony show, right? 1016 00:44:50,419 - > 00:44:51,009 This is not just 1017 00:44:51,160 - > 00:44:52,320 I love that 1018 00:44:52,697 - > 00:44:53,027 work. 1019 00:44:53,067 - > 00:44:53,387 Yeah. 1020 00:44:53,387 - > 00:44:55,957 And it's like, I'm gonna really show you how 1021 00:44:55,957 - > 00:44:57,957 this sustains through the rest of the year. 1022 00:44:57,957 - > 00:45:02,377 I'm always trying to be very mindful of the company's 1023 00:45:02,377 - > 00:45:04,197 investment in me, right? 1024 00:45:04,277 - > 00:45:05,177 I think that's huge. 1025 00:45:05,557 - > 00:45:07,117 Um, because that's really what it is. 1026 00:45:07,117 - > 00:45:09,707 Like I'm a - This is kind of a weird analogy for you, but 1027 00:45:09,707 - > 00:45:13,337 like I'm a musician when I'm not working, and I'm buying 1028 00:45:13,337 - > 00:45:15,697 equipment and I'm trying equipment, and I'm looking 1029 00:45:15,697 - > 00:45:18,707 at those things as like, does this make me sound better? 1030 00:45:18,727 - > 00:45:20,597 Does this make me perform better? 1031 00:45:20,617 - > 00:45:22,327 And if it doesn't, I gotta get rid of it, right? 1032 00:45:22,327 - > 00:45:24,467 And so I think of a company and I think of 1033 00:45:24,467 - > 00:45:26,657 an eStaff as looking at every employee like that. 1034 00:45:26,727 - > 00:45:29,387 Like, I'm gonna invest in this resource and I want it 1035 00:45:29,387 - > 00:45:32,937 to make this company grow, not just for them to just 1036 00:45:32,947 - > 00:45:34,247 do work I'm paying for. 1037 00:45:34,367 - > 00:45:37,177 And so, so it's important for me always to make sure 1038 00:45:37,177 - > 00:45:39,317 that like this investment is being looked at as, 1039 00:45:39,347 - > 00:45:40,347 as a sustained one. 1040 00:45:40,567 - > 00:45:43,027 Um, and then the next slide 1041 00:45:43,526 - > 00:45:46,676 I really love the way that, I really love the way that you 1042 00:45:46,676 - > 00:45:49,836 articulated that with like the investment in the employee 1043 00:45:50,316 - > 00:45:52,966 versus like feeling really transactional, like I'm paying 1044 00:45:52,966 - > 00:45:54,136 you for work to be done. 1045 00:45:54,666 - > 00:45:55,416 I love that. 1046 00:45:55,416 - > 00:46:00,086 I think that's really, um, a smart way for PMMs to be 1047 00:46:00,086 - > 00:46:03,596 thinking about how to talk about their work with their 1048 00:46:03,596 - > 00:46:04,266 employers 1049 00:46:05,097 - > 00:46:06,947 it's not - 'Cause that's what's funny about business 1050 00:46:06,957 - > 00:46:09,397 is, is like, you know, back to my funny analogy, it's 1051 00:46:09,397 - > 00:46:12,287 like if I go buy a guitar pick that I don't like, 1052 00:46:13,217 - > 00:46:16,197 I'm gonna get rid of it, uh, and it's not personal. 1053 00:46:16,227 - > 00:46:17,967 It's like, well, it's just not working for the job 1054 00:46:17,997 - > 00:46:18,797 that I'm trying to do. 1055 00:46:19,177 - > 00:46:21,437 And so I think every employee at a company has to look at 1056 00:46:21,437 - > 00:46:24,167 it that way, is like, I'm, I'm pushing the business forward. 1057 00:46:24,467 - > 00:46:26,737 I'm pushing the stakeholder holder value forward. 1058 00:46:26,737 - > 00:46:29,057 And so the first slide is about how we 1059 00:46:29,097 - > 00:46:30,347 keep the gap closed. 1060 00:46:30,917 - > 00:46:33,877 And then the next one, 'cause a, a, a leader's always 1061 00:46:33,877 - > 00:46:35,747 gonna ask this question, is like, "Okay, well, how do 1062 00:46:35,747 - > 00:46:38,537 we know this is working?" That's kind of my last slide. 1063 00:46:39,317 - > 00:46:40,677 Like, okay, these are the things we're gonna 1064 00:46:40,677 - > 00:46:42,737 do, and now how are we gonna measure you, right? 1065 00:46:42,747 - > 00:46:45,447 So, so that deck was huge and it, and it went great, 1066 00:46:45,687 - > 00:46:47,917 and so we've been using this framework ever since 1067 00:46:49,142 - > 00:46:50,032 I love that. 1068 00:46:50,052 - > 00:46:52,462 Okay, so back to our playbook. 1069 00:46:52,512 - > 00:46:56,372 I, let's just say I, I borrow your outline 1070 00:46:56,402 - > 00:46:57,422 for my slide deck. 1071 00:46:57,422 - > 00:46:59,962 I, my call with my, or my meeting with my executives 1072 00:46:59,962 - > 00:47:02,492 and my stakeholders goes really well. 1073 00:47:02,942 - > 00:47:04,482 Now it's just execution time, right? 1074 00:47:04,492 - > 00:47:06,032 Like, we're using that Claude project, we're 1075 00:47:06,032 - > 00:47:09,372 generating those web pages, we're building out whatever 1076 00:47:09,372 - > 00:47:12,222 resources we need, all within the guidelines and 1077 00:47:12,262 - > 00:47:16,482 the, um, you know, with those foundational documents 1078 00:47:16,542 - > 00:47:18,042 of the Claude project. 1079 00:47:18,042 - > 00:47:21,812 But then also still using human touch for the, you 1080 00:47:21,812 - > 00:47:25,422 know, parts of copywriting where you just need to. 1081 00:47:25,792 - > 00:47:27,262 Is that the end of this playbook? 1082 00:47:27,262 - > 00:47:28,822 Is there anything else you'd add? 1083 00:47:29,042 - > 00:47:31,792 And then if not, I guess, like, take us home with, 1084 00:47:31,792 - > 00:47:34,602 like, one piece of advice that you want PMMs to walk 1085 00:47:34,602 - > 00:47:38,392 away with from doing an, um, a big project like this 1086 00:47:39,145 - > 00:47:39,455 Yeah. 1087 00:47:39,455 - > 00:47:42,155 So it helps me - I think one of the big things 1088 00:47:42,155 - > 00:47:44,795 that this helps me with is context switching. 1089 00:47:45,285 - > 00:47:46,555 I've, I've kind of realized. 1090 00:47:46,935 - > 00:47:51,415 So in this big launch, right, I've got to update Crunchbase 1091 00:47:51,575 - > 00:47:56,035 and Salesforce AppExchange and G2 and all these different 1092 00:47:56,035 - > 00:47:57,565 websites that talk about Hiro. 1093 00:47:58,105 - > 00:48:01,415 And having this project allows me to go in and 1094 00:48:01,415 - > 00:48:05,005 say, "Hey, I need the 120-character version of Hiro. 1095 00:48:05,285 - > 00:48:08,005 I need the 300-character version of Hiro." Like, 1096 00:48:08,035 - > 00:48:10,695 and I get like that first draft immediately, right? 1097 00:48:10,705 - > 00:48:14,075 So like I'm not getting like death by a thousand cuts doing 1098 00:48:14,075 - > 00:48:15,405 all these like small projects. 1099 00:48:15,845 - > 00:48:19,465 Um, but another one, I wanted to talk about another one too 1100 00:48:19,615 - > 00:48:22,395 that I, I thought was real - Okay, so here's another one. 1101 00:48:23,555 - > 00:48:25,995 We - With this launch, we wanted to come out 1102 00:48:25,995 - > 00:48:27,215 with videos, right? 1103 00:48:27,565 - > 00:48:29,635 Uh, I thought this was a really great, uh, idea from 1104 00:48:29,635 - > 00:48:32,155 my boss, where we were gonna have a one-minute explainer 1105 00:48:32,155 - > 00:48:34,855 video, a three-minute explainer, and a five-minute 1106 00:48:34,905 - > 00:48:36,475 explainer video, right? 1107 00:48:36,775 - > 00:48:40,415 And so it's fun to think about the script of those three 1108 00:48:40,435 - > 00:48:43,145 videos because something I learned from a past boss is 1109 00:48:43,145 - > 00:48:48,365 like your video has to start from just a plain page script, 1110 00:48:49,025 - > 00:48:50,715 like with all the moments. 1111 00:48:50,745 - > 00:48:54,315 It's got to just be a, a boring script on a page 1112 00:48:54,805 - > 00:48:57,635 and then you go find the talent, you find the 1113 00:48:57,635 - > 00:49:00,995 screens, the music, all the different things, but you 1114 00:49:00,995 - > 00:49:01,865 all got to start from there. 1115 00:49:01,865 - > 00:49:04,115 And so that was a really fun project to start from the 1116 00:49:04,115 - > 00:49:10,025 framework, excuse me, and then be like, "Okay, what's th- 1117 00:49:10,035 - > 00:49:11,275 what do these three look like? 1118 00:49:11,305 - > 00:49:14,105 Like what changes from one to three to five minutes," right? 1119 00:49:14,375 - > 00:49:16,655 Like what do we bring in more? 1120 00:49:16,655 - > 00:49:18,385 What do we explain more? 1121 00:49:18,835 - > 00:49:22,025 Um, and all of it is just operating from that DNA. 1122 00:49:22,865 - > 00:49:25,905 It's like I'm working with an assistant and we're on like 1123 00:49:25,905 - > 00:49:29,265 the exact same page, and so we could kind of like refine. 1124 00:49:29,275 - > 00:49:33,075 And so I get an output, I give the feedback, and 1125 00:49:33,075 - > 00:49:35,575 then I get a new version and it's great and it, it 1126 00:49:35,615 - > 00:49:37,675 allows us to work so quickly. 1127 00:49:37,675 - > 00:49:40,725 I mean we did these three videos in a week 1128 00:49:41,145 - > 00:49:44,755 because we had incredible people on the videos. 1129 00:49:44,755 - > 00:49:47,275 We had a really great sales engineer and a really 1130 00:49:47,275 - > 00:49:49,775 great sales leader who like did the demos for me. 1131 00:49:50,405 - > 00:49:52,145 We had a really great video person. 1132 00:49:53,025 - > 00:49:55,075 But what was awesome was if you think about a project 1133 00:49:55,075 - > 00:49:59,335 length, all that front stuff was like done in like a day. 1134 00:50:00,075 - > 00:50:02,345 So it was like, "Okay, I'm doing my part today. 1135 00:50:02,345 - > 00:50:04,485 I'm getting it to other people fast." Everything 1136 00:50:04,485 - > 00:50:07,225 is speeding up because the product marketing piece 1137 00:50:07,635 - > 00:50:12,345 is like done a lot quicker while I'm doing other things 1138 00:50:12,395 - > 00:50:13,345 at the exact same time. 1139 00:50:13,965 - > 00:50:15,555 So that's what's cool is 1140 00:50:15,640 - > 00:50:16,010 So 1141 00:50:16,085 - > 00:50:16,175 that. 1142 00:50:16,448 - > 00:50:20,088 big advocate for doing all that foundational work, 1143 00:50:20,518 - > 00:50:24,278 building out the Claude project, and then think more 1144 00:50:24,278 - > 00:50:29,598 creatively about how you can continue to amplify your 1145 00:50:29,598 - > 00:50:32,878 work and your value with all that goodness that you 1146 00:50:32,878 - > 00:50:35,388 had put in at the front end with the deep research and 1147 00:50:35,388 - > 00:50:39,288 the, the 40-page manifesto and the, um, including 1148 00:50:39,288 - > 00:50:40,608 the persona documents. 1149 00:50:41,828 - > 00:50:43,308 All such good stuff. 1150 00:50:43,538 - > 00:50:44,048 Okay. 1151 00:50:44,698 - > 00:50:45,218 All right. 1152 00:50:45,238 - > 00:50:45,598 Okay. 1153 00:50:45,718 - > 00:50:46,798 Love this case study. 1154 00:50:46,838 - > 00:50:49,998 It's truly one of my favorites most recently 1155 00:50:49,998 - > 00:50:52,298 because it's just so fascinating and so impressive. 1156 00:50:52,318 - > 00:50:53,218 Thank you so much, Ryan. 1157 00:50:53,218 - > 00:50:53,948 I loved it. 1158 00:50:54,368 - > 00:50:57,198 Um, appreciate you going into so much detail on it. 1159 00:50:57,438 - > 00:51:00,018 Um, now it's time for the next segment of our show. 1160 00:51:00,058 - > 00:51:01,418 This is the messaging critique. 1161 00:51:01,458 - > 00:51:03,568 This is where, as product marketing experts, we get to 1162 00:51:03,568 - > 00:51:05,218 analyze real-world messaging. 1163 00:51:06,168 - > 00:51:08,208 And the fun part is, Ryan, you 1164 00:51:08,208 - > 00:51:11,418 get to pick the company that we critique the messaging 1165 00:51:11,418 - > 00:51:13,828 for, or it doesn't have to be the company messaging, could 1166 00:51:13,828 - > 00:51:15,068 also be campaign messaging. 1167 00:51:15,408 - > 00:51:17,498 Um, okay, so quick round rules. 1168 00:51:17,658 - > 00:51:20,778 Try to pick a company that you feel pretty comfortable 1169 00:51:20,788 - > 00:51:23,298 talking about and that you know the market pretty well. 1170 00:51:23,638 - > 00:51:27,258 Um, some- then tell us what the messaging is, just quick 1171 00:51:27,258 - > 00:51:29,938 overview of what the company does, and then tell us what 1172 00:51:29,938 - > 00:51:31,608 you're loving about it, what's standing out really 1173 00:51:31,608 - > 00:51:34,008 well, and then something you wish the PMM would've 1174 00:51:34,008 - > 00:51:37,268 considered differently, and then we'll brainstorm, 1175 00:51:37,288 - > 00:51:40,368 iterate on how that PMM can take it to the next level 1176 00:51:41,388 - > 00:51:42,288 Yeah, absolutely. 1177 00:51:42,348 - > 00:51:46,798 Um, it's funny, I brought up a page on my screen here. 1178 00:51:46,798 - > 00:51:49,968 This is a site that I love that I haven't actually 1179 00:51:49,968 - > 00:51:51,238 looked at in a while. 1180 00:51:51,398 - > 00:51:54,018 So it's a site that I've loved in the past. 1181 00:51:54,598 - > 00:51:57,498 It's a site that I haven't seen in a little bit, and 1182 00:51:57,498 - > 00:51:59,638 so it feels like a great chance to like see like what 1183 00:51:59,638 - > 00:52:01,488 are they saying now, right? 1184 00:52:01,828 - > 00:52:02,588 Let's do it. 1185 00:52:02,838 - > 00:52:03,718 Reveal the company. 1186 00:52:03,718 - > 00:52:04,278 Who are we looking at? 1187 00:52:04,736 - > 00:52:05,226 Okay, cool. 1188 00:52:05,236 - > 00:52:07,206 So I love what UserGems does. 1189 00:52:07,586 - > 00:52:08,536 I love their site. 1190 00:52:08,596 - > 00:52:09,976 I love who they work with. 1191 00:52:10,016 - > 00:52:10,206 I 1192 00:52:10,298 - > 00:52:10,998 User gems 1193 00:52:12,267 - > 00:52:14,217 Have you s- have you used it recently on the pod? 1194 00:52:14,396 - > 00:52:16,026 I have not, I have not. 1195 00:52:16,026 - > 00:52:18,836 So one of my other podcast guests at the, at the 1196 00:52:18,836 - > 00:52:22,466 very beginning of the year, Julian Sauvage, he, 1197 00:52:22,766 - > 00:52:25,046 we critiqued UserGems, but that was months ago. 1198 00:52:25,076 - > 00:52:28,866 So I'm also curious to see how it has changed. 1199 00:52:28,936 - > 00:52:30,236 Let's, this'll be fun. 1200 00:52:30,276 - > 00:52:30,666 Okay 1201 00:52:30,886 - > 00:52:33,696 so UserGems, guys, if you wanna follow a- along, it's 1202 00:52:33,896 - > 00:52:38,426 U-S-E-R-G-E-M-S.com, UserGems 1203 00:52:38,969 - > 00:52:39,379 Yeah. 1204 00:52:39,419 - > 00:52:41,709 So do you want me to share my screen or 1205 00:52:41,709 - > 00:52:42,889 what, what should we do? 1206 00:52:43,048 - > 00:52:43,874 yeah, sure. 1207 00:52:44,164 - > 00:52:44,724 Go for it. 1208 00:52:44,724 - > 00:52:45,144 Let's do it, 1209 00:52:45,659 - > 00:52:47,139 so let's check it out, right? 1210 00:52:47,414 - > 00:52:50,220 When I get into this page, boy, there's a lot that 1211 00:52:50,220 - > 00:52:51,024 I look at on this page. 1212 00:52:51,034 - > 00:52:56,654 So the AI command center for outbound and ABM. 1213 00:52:57,308 - > 00:52:57,648 Okay. 1214 00:52:57,688 - > 00:52:59,878 I, I don't love it, so what I'm gonna do next is 1215 00:52:59,878 - > 00:53:01,368 I'm gonna go to the next slide, which is fine. 1216 00:53:01,818 - > 00:53:04,468 Uh, one place for all your signals, data, 1217 00:53:04,528 - > 00:53:05,298 and prioritization. 1218 00:53:05,948 - > 00:53:09,508 Deploy AI agents to run personalized outbound 1219 00:53:09,618 - > 00:53:11,558 and ABM at scale. 1220 00:53:11,988 - > 00:53:13,488 Money back guarantee. 1221 00:53:13,548 - > 00:53:14,708 Okay, that's great 'cause they're kind of 1222 00:53:14,708 - > 00:53:16,358 like clarifying for me a little bit, right? 1223 00:53:16,358 - > 00:53:20,598 'Cause AI command center is tough. 1224 00:53:20,638 - > 00:53:24,018 Like it's, uh, it, it, it's like kind, it's kind of a, 1225 00:53:24,358 - > 00:53:26,408 it's a little bit of the all-in-one thing that we 1226 00:53:26,408 - > 00:53:27,358 try to get away from, right? 1227 00:53:27,358 - > 00:53:27,508 That 1228 00:53:27,510 - > 00:53:28,900 It's too fluffy. 1229 00:53:29,170 - > 00:53:30,020 Yes. 1230 00:53:30,368 - > 00:53:34,164 Yeah, it still leaves me a little bit like, I, I 1231 00:53:34,174 - > 00:53:38,074 understand the pressure that B2B companies are 1232 00:53:38,074 - > 00:53:43,114 under with articulating their innovations with AI. 1233 00:53:43,764 - > 00:53:43,944 I- 1234 00:53:43,944 - > 00:53:45,054 totally get that. 1235 00:53:45,704 - > 00:53:47,524 Um, and so it's tough. 1236 00:53:48,044 - > 00:53:51,874 But throwing it in, and, and I'm sure this, I'm 1237 00:53:51,874 - > 00:53:53,734 probably being a little bit more flippant than it, than 1238 00:53:53,734 - > 00:53:57,464 was intended, but it feels a little too fluffy for me 1239 00:53:57,464 - > 00:54:00,724 and it, it, it causes me to immediately think like, "Uh, 1240 00:54:02,144 - > 00:54:05,594 are you trying to be bigger than you actually are?" 1241 00:54:05,604 - > 00:54:08,054 It, it, it, it's moving away from differentiator, I 1242 00:54:08,054 - > 00:54:09,074 guess, is what I'm saying. 1243 00:54:09,804 - > 00:54:12,564 And to your point, like being too, too 1244 00:54:12,564 - > 00:54:13,794 much to too many folks. 1245 00:54:13,814 - > 00:54:16,154 Okay, so I don't want to get into, get into it, but, 1246 00:54:16,224 - > 00:54:18,164 um, what's your critique? 1247 00:54:18,174 - > 00:54:20,064 What's working really Well, with some of this? 1248 00:54:20,810 - > 00:54:22,560 Well, here's what's funny, like the more I - 'cause 1249 00:54:22,560 - > 00:54:24,770 I just pulled this up and just got it fla- kind 1250 00:54:24,770 - > 00:54:25,520 of like you just did. 1251 00:54:25,530 - > 00:54:27,360 We just got it kind of flashed at us, like this 1252 00:54:27,360 - > 00:54:29,830 wasn't something that we prepared for, you and I. So 1253 00:54:30,460 - > 00:54:32,750 the more I'm it, the more things are starting 1254 00:54:32,750 - > 00:54:34,490 to sort of s- poke out to me a little bit. 1255 00:54:34,500 - > 00:54:38,720 So it says here, "Trusted by the best revenue teams." And 1256 00:54:38,720 - > 00:54:43,210 so now I have a question of who is using this product? 1257 00:54:43,590 - > 00:54:46,820 Like who on the team, revenue team, like okay, 1258 00:54:46,820 - > 00:54:47,640 so who on the team? 1259 00:54:47,640 - > 00:54:51,320 And I come back up to here and I say, okay, the AI command 1260 00:54:51,320 - > 00:54:53,380 center for outbound and ABM. 1261 00:54:53,400 - > 00:54:58,080 So that must be like your SDRs, I think are using this. 1262 00:54:58,090 - > 00:54:59,690 So one place for your signals, data, and 1263 00:54:59,690 - > 00:55:03,480 prioritization, deploy agents to run personalized 1264 00:55:03,600 - > 00:55:05,910 outbound and ABM at scale. 1265 00:55:07,120 - > 00:55:09,450 My question is, are my SDRs using it? 1266 00:55:09,650 - > 00:55:11,210 Are my salespeople using it? 1267 00:55:11,740 - > 00:55:13,830 Are you replacing those people, and is 1268 00:55:13,830 - > 00:55:15,010 a leader using it? 1269 00:55:15,470 - > 00:55:18,250 That's where I'm a little confused about who is 1270 00:55:18,260 - > 00:55:22,290 using this in what world or size of company, right? 1271 00:55:22,290 - > 00:55:23,520 Do you - Is that how you feel too? 1272 00:55:24,030 - > 00:55:25,210 Yes, absolutely. 1273 00:55:25,210 - > 00:55:25,390 Yeah. 1274 00:55:25,390 - > 00:55:27,180 I know exactly where you're going with this. 1275 00:55:27,860 - > 00:55:31,184 And the other thing is that, when they say the best 1276 00:55:31,184 - > 00:55:35,074 revenue teams, um, and then they have it looks like a 1277 00:55:35,074 - > 00:55:37,834 list of logos down there, they're being a bit - they're 1278 00:55:37,834 - > 00:55:40,704 trying to be complimentary to their customers because 1279 00:55:40,704 - > 00:55:41,924 they're the, the best teams. 1280 00:55:42,634 - > 00:55:43,854 But if I'm not a customer, does that 1281 00:55:43,854 - > 00:55:44,814 mean I'm not the best? 1282 00:55:44,924 - > 00:55:47,224 Like, it's not a big deal. 1283 00:55:47,314 - > 00:55:48,064 It's very picky. 1284 00:55:48,144 - > 00:55:50,844 Okay, keep going with where you're - with what you're 1285 00:55:50,844 - > 00:55:51,884 thinking on some of this. 1286 00:55:52,537 - > 00:55:52,797 Yeah. 1287 00:55:52,797 - > 00:55:56,267 So it, it's a little, um, it's a little bit - What it 1288 00:55:56,267 - > 00:55:59,367 feels like to me is it reminds me of another homepage that 1289 00:55:59,367 - > 00:56:00,527 we can pull up real quick. 1290 00:56:01,157 - > 00:56:04,617 And the vibe I get is like, "We don't have to be that 1291 00:56:04,617 - > 00:56:07,867 clear because we already got customers, and we 1292 00:56:07,867 - > 00:56:12,097 already have it going on. So we can just sort of say, 1293 00:56:12,767 - > 00:56:14,257 like, whatever we want." 1294 00:56:14,297 - > 00:56:16,557 And I think, uh… Okay, obviously that's 1295 00:56:16,557 - > 00:56:17,607 not Gong's website. 1296 00:56:18,297 - > 00:56:18,947 Uh, oh. 1297 00:56:20,667 - > 00:56:21,147 All right. 1298 00:56:21,197 - > 00:56:22,707 This is what live is all about, right? 1299 00:56:22,707 - > 00:56:22,987 We're gonna find out 1300 00:56:23,427 - > 00:56:23,727 what 1301 00:56:23,923 - > 00:56:24,483 I know, 1302 00:56:24,997 - > 00:56:26,427 URL actually is. 1303 00:56:26,457 - > 00:56:26,727 All right. 1304 00:56:26,727 - > 00:56:27,327 Gong.io. 1305 00:56:27,377 - > 00:56:27,767 Okay. 1306 00:56:28,367 - > 00:56:29,837 Don't know what gong.com was. 1307 00:56:29,837 - > 00:56:32,047 Luckily it wasn't anything too weird. 1308 00:56:32,507 - > 00:56:34,567 Um, so 1309 00:56:34,929 - > 00:56:35,779 Gong.io. 1310 00:56:35,809 - > 00:56:36,709 I, I forgot 1311 00:56:36,767 - > 00:56:37,907 but let's look at this one. 1312 00:56:37,917 - > 00:56:41,537 These guys are so amazing at, like, needing to say a whole 1313 00:56:41,537 - > 00:56:41,827 lot. 1314 00:56:42,261 - > 00:56:43,431 the number one. 1315 00:56:43,451 - > 00:56:43,821 All right. 1316 00:56:43,881 - > 00:56:45,671 So you call yourself number one. 1317 00:56:46,152 - > 00:56:48,352 who's like - It's almost like when the car companies give 1318 00:56:48,352 - > 00:56:49,702 themselves awards, right? 1319 00:56:49,752 - > 00:56:52,002 It's like, it's a little funny. 1320 00:56:52,012 - > 00:56:53,622 For the operating system 1321 00:56:53,766 - > 00:56:54,256 to who? 1322 00:56:54,336 - > 00:56:54,866 Yes 1323 00:56:56,074 - > 00:57:00,084 It, it's funny that they say this because operating system 1324 00:57:00,084 - > 00:57:04,324 for revenue teams, like to me that would be your CRM, right? 1325 00:57:04,394 - > 00:57:07,944 Like that's where your, your point of truth is, and we all 1326 00:57:07,944 - > 00:57:09,484 know who the big CRMs are. 1327 00:57:10,084 - > 00:57:11,884 Um, so that's what's kind of funny about that headline. 1328 00:57:12,524 - > 00:57:17,024 And then, um, this, this is just sort of a funny thing. 1329 00:57:17,024 - > 00:57:18,074 I don't know what it really means. 1330 00:57:18,074 - > 00:57:18,284 And then 1331 00:57:18,554 - > 00:57:19,154 built help your 1332 00:57:19,170 - > 00:57:20,140 the little a- yeah 1333 00:57:20,437 - > 00:57:20,947 team… Yeah, sorry. 1334 00:57:20,947 - > 00:57:23,657 So, so, uh, let me, let me, uh, throw, throw the mic back. 1335 00:57:23,667 - > 00:57:25,047 You, you, you jump in please 1336 00:57:25,240 - > 00:57:25,774 Yeah 1337 00:57:25,774 - > 00:57:28,684 Well, so what I'm, what I'm thinking when we go to, like, 1338 00:57:28,694 - > 00:57:31,524 UserGems and they - and it's kind of getting back to that 1339 00:57:31,534 - > 00:57:34,424 really top-level messaging of, like, the AI command center, 1340 00:57:34,444 - > 00:57:36,774 and then we go to Gone, we're like, "The number one AI 1341 00:57:36,824 - > 00:57:39,864 operating system." To me, I'm like, what's the difference? 1342 00:57:40,367 - > 00:57:42,677 What's the d- like, I'm sure there is a difference, 1343 00:57:42,697 - > 00:57:46,520 but what I'm getting at is that, like, I think these 1344 00:57:46,520 - > 00:57:48,830 B2B companies are under a lot of pressure to bring in 1345 00:57:48,830 - > 00:57:52,580 this, like, AI speak into some of this, like, really 1346 00:57:52,580 - > 00:57:58,450 top-level, um, narrative, and It it ends up getting very 1347 00:57:58,450 - > 00:58:01,710 like, uh, like a, like too fluffy, I guess, is what I'm 1348 00:58:01,710 - > 00:58:04,900 saying, and it confuses me. 1349 00:58:05,220 - > 00:58:08,580 And that could be okay if it's, if you provide with 1350 00:58:08,580 - > 00:58:11,890 some, like, intrigue, and it's like, okay, well maybe 1351 00:58:11,890 - > 00:58:13,190 I wanna look a little deeper. 1352 00:58:13,460 - > 00:58:18,000 So, um, and, and this could also be that I'm not the 1353 00:58:18,840 - > 00:58:23,710 target persona for some of these, but I, I, I guess, 1354 00:58:23,720 - > 00:58:28,580 like, my, initial gut reaction is like, "Tell me 1355 00:58:28,580 - > 00:58:30,110 more," because I don't… 1356 00:58:30,160 - > 00:58:34,410 It's not quite saying enough for me to feel - It's, it's 1357 00:58:34,410 - > 00:58:37,700 feeling more of like a, like rolling my eyes, like, okay, 1358 00:58:37,700 - > 00:58:41,860 more, more AI stuff being, you know, shoved in there. 1359 00:58:41,870 - > 00:58:44,460 So but that's kind of my first take on, like, something 1360 00:58:44,460 - > 00:58:46,570 that I wish the PMM would've considered differently is, 1361 00:58:46,590 - > 00:58:49,770 like, let's lean heavier into differentiators 1362 00:58:49,790 - > 00:58:54,160 than, than trying to run with a me too, I have AI. 1363 00:58:54,360 - > 00:58:55,500 Look, look, look, I have AI. 1364 00:58:55,590 - > 00:58:56,620 Like, y- you know? 1365 00:58:56,650 - > 00:59:00,890 So that's my first reaction, but I've only been looking 1366 00:59:00,890 - > 00:59:01,790 at it for, like, two minutes. 1367 00:59:01,910 - > 00:59:04,110 So what 1368 00:59:04,110 - > 00:59:04,650 about you guys? 1369 00:59:04,650 - > 00:59:05,790 You're kind of, like, looking at the 1370 00:59:05,790 - > 00:59:06,760 difference between these. 1371 00:59:06,760 - > 00:59:07,960 What, what's your take on it? 1372 00:59:08,490 - > 00:59:11,060 Yeah, it's funny, like I love looking at the flow of a site 1373 00:59:11,060 - > 00:59:12,910 and then we kind of talk about some of the stuff on the top. 1374 00:59:12,910 - > 00:59:15,270 So like you get in here and what Gong is clearly 1375 00:59:15,270 - > 00:59:17,540 trying to do is say, "Look, we are no longer 1376 00:59:17,540 - > 00:59:19,620 just what we used to be. 1377 00:59:19,700 - > 00:59:21,270 We are, we are AI. 1378 00:59:21,290 - > 00:59:24,660 We are AI." Like, and then what they're doing here 1379 00:59:24,750 - > 00:59:28,010 is they're saying, "Let's show you some AI," Right 1380 00:59:28,010 - > 00:59:30,500 We're gonna have this auto-playing thing right here. 1381 00:59:30,830 - > 00:59:34,390 What Gong used to have was this customer tracker, like 1382 00:59:34,420 - > 00:59:37,330 right up on the top, because it's kind of like the, um, 1383 00:59:37,490 - > 00:59:38,750 the delivery to the promise. 1384 00:59:38,790 - > 00:59:41,200 They're gonna say they're the number one and then they 1385 00:59:41,200 - > 00:59:43,345 kind of have to have, "We're number one because we got 1386 00:59:43,345 - > 00:59:44,990 5,000 customers," right? 1387 00:59:44,990 - > 00:59:46,460 And like look at the size of these names. 1388 00:59:46,710 - > 00:59:50,480 We have Google and Dropbox and ADP and like everybody that 1389 00:59:50,480 - > 00:59:51,570 you would want as a customer. 1390 00:59:51,910 - > 00:59:54,760 So it's kind of they've got this and then they 1391 00:59:54,760 - > 00:59:58,175 just kind of stuck this sort of like quick, you 1392 00:59:58,175 - > 01:00:02,065 know, AI thing on here, which is cool, um, I guess. 1393 01:00:02,205 - > 01:00:03,725 Uh, and then they, and then they're right into 1394 01:00:03,725 - > 01:00:05,535 like here's how people are using it, right? 1395 01:00:05,535 - > 01:00:08,805 Customer, uh, customer proof sort of down the 1396 01:00:08,805 - > 01:00:11,475 line and things folks probably aren't reading a 1397 01:00:11,475 - > 01:00:12,645 whole lot past this point. 1398 01:00:12,785 - > 01:00:16,815 Um, and then getting back to this one, we kind of 1399 01:00:16,815 - > 01:00:18,655 talked about this top layer and it's, it's cool they're 1400 01:00:18,655 - > 01:00:20,435 doing the customer proof thing right here off the top. 1401 01:00:20,435 - > 01:00:22,355 I love this idea that companies - This is kind 1402 01:00:22,355 - > 01:00:24,425 of a more modern design where people are putting 1403 01:00:24,425 - > 01:00:27,025 the case studies like right up in the, right up 1404 01:00:27,025 - > 01:00:28,015 in the top area, right? 1405 01:00:28,055 - > 01:00:31,545 That's like the new thing is like have your logos and 1406 01:00:31,555 - > 01:00:32,605 the case studies together. 1407 01:00:32,705 - > 01:00:33,655 That's very cool. 1408 01:00:34,024 - > 01:00:37,414 companies are switching from 6sense to UserGem. 1409 01:00:37,414 - > 01:00:38,694 I like that. 1410 01:00:38,934 - > 01:00:41,454 They are like planting a 1411 01:00:41,454 - > 01:00:42,384 flag here. 1412 01:00:43,054 - > 01:00:44,414 This, it's very bold. 1413 01:00:44,684 - > 01:00:47,284 I'm really excited to click this see the comparison, 1414 01:00:47,854 - > 01:00:49,114 uh, link right here. 1415 01:00:49,114 - > 01:00:49,974 I think we should click it 1416 01:00:50,886 - > 01:00:53,682 The other thing that I like about this is that, like, 1417 01:00:53,692 - > 01:00:56,382 if you were new to UserGems, I think UserGems is a 1418 01:00:56,382 - > 01:00:57,532 smaller company from 6sense. 1419 01:00:57,532 - > 01:00:58,212 I might be wrong. 1420 01:00:58,282 - > 01:00:59,112 I think it is. 1421 01:00:59,362 - > 01:01:02,552 So it, uh, it gives some context into, like, who 1422 01:01:02,552 - > 01:01:06,562 you should compare to us or compare, sorry, who you, who 1423 01:01:06,562 - > 01:01:07,752 you should compare us to. 1424 01:01:08,192 - > 01:01:11,912 and so it gives the customer that context, and then 1425 01:01:11,912 - > 01:01:14,172 it also, like, states the alternative of like, 1426 01:01:14,172 - > 01:01:16,502 "Hey, you're using this, like, consider using us." 1427 01:01:16,512 - > 01:01:21,432 So I, I like where that could evolve into in terms of, you 1428 01:01:21,432 - > 01:01:23,592 know, maybe like competitive campaigns or something 1429 01:01:24,514 - > 01:01:24,854 Yeah. 1430 01:01:24,944 - > 01:01:26,344 Yeah, that's a very - I like that insight. 1431 01:01:26,354 - > 01:01:29,034 And it's funny, on this page you get here, and I 1432 01:01:29,034 - > 01:01:30,874 actually have a problem with this Book Demo button. 1433 01:01:30,894 - > 01:01:32,524 I think when you think of, like, a person's 1434 01:01:32,524 - > 01:01:34,744 flow in this moment like you just said, they're 1435 01:01:34,744 - > 01:01:36,074 like, "Oh, I know 6sense. 1436 01:01:36,394 - > 01:01:37,454 What's UserGems do? 1437 01:01:37,544 - > 01:01:38,534 I'm gonna click this link. 1438 01:01:38,534 - > 01:01:41,324 This sounds spicy." I think right here is 1439 01:01:41,324 - > 01:01:42,344 a wasted opportunity. 1440 01:01:42,344 - > 01:01:46,154 They should have something like, um, "Get a video 1441 01:01:46,164 - > 01:01:48,934 walkthrough of the difference," or, like, give 1442 01:01:48,944 - > 01:01:53,694 me, more for, like, I'm not gonna book a demo right now. 1443 01:01:53,694 - > 01:01:56,244 Like, I, I, I wouldn't be surprised if this ever 1444 01:01:56,244 - > 01:02:00,004 gets clicked in, on this page in this moment, right? 1445 01:02:00,044 - > 01:02:01,614 Like, not happening. 1446 01:02:02,706 - > 01:02:03,226 Yeah 1447 01:02:03,226 - > 01:02:06,276 What I - This is a really good piece of insight, and I would 1448 01:02:06,286 - > 01:02:09,646 love to see UserGems take this to the next level, where 1449 01:02:09,646 - > 01:02:12,186 instead of they're doing, like, feature comparisons, 1450 01:02:12,416 - > 01:02:14,666 they're like, bring customers more into this. 1451 01:02:14,766 - > 01:02:17,846 Like, go do some us-re- UserGems, you probably already 1452 01:02:17,846 - > 01:02:20,256 have some of this research, but, like, what are your 1453 01:02:20,256 - > 01:02:22,836 customers who are switching, what are they saying? 1454 01:02:23,176 - > 01:02:26,276 You don't necessarily have to name them here. 1455 01:02:26,896 - > 01:02:29,716 Get their stories and see what you can do with that 1456 01:02:29,716 - > 01:02:33,796 in terms of content rather than doing, like, a direct 1457 01:02:34,426 - > 01:02:37,346 feature comparison, 'cause I think that's a classic 1458 01:02:37,576 - > 01:02:41,446 PMM trap is getting when you do competitive intelligence 1459 01:02:41,476 - > 01:02:42,826 is the feature comparison. 1460 01:02:42,986 - > 01:02:44,526 And like, yes, that there are times when, 1461 01:02:44,536 - > 01:02:45,606 like, that does matter. 1462 01:02:45,606 - > 01:02:48,076 There are table stake features that, you know, 1463 01:02:48,076 - > 01:02:49,126 your customers require. 1464 01:02:49,146 - > 01:02:50,316 Like, yes, of course. 1465 01:02:50,706 - > 01:02:54,106 But it's more than, more often than not, there's 1466 01:02:54,106 - > 01:02:56,746 more to the story than just the feature comparison 1467 01:02:57,563 - > 01:02:58,463 Yeah, it's tough, right? 1468 01:02:58,463 - > 01:03:00,303 You're, you're reminding me of one of my favorite 1469 01:03:00,353 - > 01:03:03,053 business books I've read lately, and that's the April 1470 01:03:03,053 - > 01:03:07,723 Dunford "Sales Pitch" book, where a big thing, and it's 1471 01:03:07,723 - > 01:03:09,903 something that we really put into our first call deck. 1472 01:03:09,903 - > 01:03:12,263 I was so excited that the team kind of allowed me to 1473 01:03:12,533 - > 01:03:15,173 get inspired by her book and then, like, they were 1474 01:03:15,173 - > 01:03:17,623 already on the same page of, like, how we started off. 1475 01:03:17,913 - > 01:03:20,383 What folks are really looking for you to do on 1476 01:03:20,383 - > 01:03:24,323 a page like this is show that they can trust you, 1477 01:03:24,573 - > 01:03:28,373 show that you can be like a market advisor, right? 1478 01:03:28,703 - > 01:03:32,113 Like April's analogy is like, I went in to buy a toilet for 1479 01:03:32,113 - > 01:03:35,703 my remodeled bathroom, and I need that salesperson to 1480 01:03:35,703 - > 01:03:39,643 bring me along on the journey of like what this market is 1481 01:03:39,933 - > 01:03:41,483 and why I need what I need. 1482 01:03:41,833 - > 01:03:44,273 If you kind of give someone a, a table where it's 1483 01:03:44,273 - > 01:03:47,723 a bunch of greens and reds, you're not really 1484 01:03:47,723 - > 01:03:49,243 getting that trust, right? 1485 01:03:49,273 - > 01:03:50,563 From, from what's happening here. 1486 01:03:50,563 - > 01:03:53,703 You're, not showing that like everybody's got their place 1487 01:03:53,703 - > 01:03:58,353 in the market and maybe what I need is, is this, and, 1488 01:03:58,353 - > 01:04:00,073 and 6sense is good at this. 1489 01:04:00,073 - > 01:04:03,153 So I think something I'd love to see in this table is like 1490 01:04:03,173 - > 01:04:06,233 where 6sense shines, and they are doing it a little bit here 1491 01:04:06,323 - > 01:04:07,903 in this advertising section. 1492 01:04:08,533 - > 01:04:11,083 Um, but I think that's something kind of funny 1493 01:04:11,083 - > 01:04:12,893 and, and, uh, I don't know. 1494 01:04:12,933 - > 01:04:16,033 That, that that's what I think makes a great comparison 1495 01:04:16,033 - > 01:04:18,973 page is like you are a m- a trusted market advisor 1496 01:04:19,856 - > 01:04:21,846 I love that perspective. 1497 01:04:21,946 - > 01:04:22,496 I love it. 1498 01:04:22,556 - > 01:04:25,946 Okay, so is this how you'd like to see UserGems kind of 1499 01:04:25,956 - > 01:04:28,786 take their storytelling and narrative to the next level? 1500 01:04:28,786 - > 01:04:30,586 Is there anything else to the story here 1501 01:04:31,633 - > 01:04:34,103 Gosh, let's, uh, let's go back to the front here. 1502 01:04:34,143 - > 01:04:37,773 I still, I still really, uh, love what they're doing 1503 01:04:38,023 - > 01:04:41,313 and, uh, we kind of get in here into agent, AI agents, 1504 01:04:42,051 - > 01:04:43,091 into these solutions pages. 1505 01:04:43,101 - > 01:04:44,971 It's funny, I haven't looked at this page in a long time. 1506 01:04:45,491 - > 01:04:47,461 Um, but customers, you know, you just go 1507 01:04:47,461 - > 01:04:48,281 right to that page. 1508 01:04:48,541 - > 01:04:50,401 Hall of Gems, I'm not really sure what that is. 1509 01:04:50,721 - > 01:04:52,051 And then they've got resources. 1510 01:04:52,617 - > 01:04:54,357 Here's what's funny, and it's something that, that I 1511 01:04:54,367 - > 01:04:56,297 think every company should really rethink when it comes 1512 01:04:56,297 - > 01:05:01,077 to resources, is that no one jumps to a site, goes 1513 01:05:01,077 - > 01:05:04,157 into a resource center and says, "I feel like a 1514 01:05:04,157 - > 01:05:09,127 classroom today," or, "I feel like a webinar today." 1515 01:05:09,607 - > 01:05:14,777 And like, we've got to get out of like the type sort of 1516 01:05:14,787 - > 01:05:16,627 being that front door, right? 1517 01:05:16,637 - > 01:05:19,877 Like it's, we've got to come back to like your - I know 1518 01:05:19,877 - > 01:05:23,117 this is like a dramatic word, but like all anybody cares 1519 01:05:23,117 - > 01:05:26,347 about are their problems and what your product is trying 1520 01:05:26,347 - > 01:05:29,367 to do is like help them survive their problems, right? 1521 01:05:29,397 - > 01:05:31,137 And so I think there's like this reimagining of 1522 01:05:31,137 - > 01:05:35,477 a resource center where it can be, um, the, the, uh, 1523 01:05:35,487 - > 01:05:38,927 sort of the input points to solving their problems. 1524 01:05:39,377 - > 01:05:40,647 And they probably have that? 1525 01:05:41,927 - > 01:05:43,087 if I click into this. 1526 01:05:43,807 - > 01:05:47,297 Um, you know, now they're kind of into that space of like 1527 01:05:47,747 - > 01:05:50,187 reach out to past champions when they change jobs, like 1528 01:05:50,187 - > 01:05:51,627 revise closed opportunities. 1529 01:05:51,627 - > 01:05:54,247 Like these might be those examples for user 1530 01:05:54,247 - > 01:05:56,777 gems, but like what are the, what are like the 1531 01:05:56,777 - > 01:05:58,947 headlines that someone would actually care about? 1532 01:05:58,997 - > 01:05:59,727 What do you think about that? 1533 01:06:00,599 - > 01:06:01,469 I love that. 1534 01:06:01,489 - > 01:06:05,409 And I'm, I'm bringing us back to what I said a few 1535 01:06:05,409 - > 01:06:09,599 minutes ago around go talk to your customers again. 1536 01:06:09,609 - > 01:06:11,709 You probably already had this research, so go look 1537 01:06:11,709 - > 01:06:17,029 at it again, and how can you repackage what you already are 1538 01:06:17,029 - > 01:06:18,409 hearing from your customers? 1539 01:06:18,789 - > 01:06:22,839 And I love what you're saying about, um, reimagining 1540 01:06:22,889 - > 01:06:25,689 resources for your customers, but use their voice to do it. 1541 01:06:26,249 - > 01:06:28,799 So, like, how can you repackage their own 1542 01:06:28,949 - > 01:06:31,529 experiences, their pains, their frustrations, their 1543 01:06:31,529 - > 01:06:35,689 hopes, their dreams, repackaging it into content 1544 01:06:35,689 - > 01:06:39,149 and assets that will help them continue through that 1545 01:06:39,149 - > 01:06:44,119 journey into discovering UserGems and m- maintaining 1546 01:06:44,119 - > 01:06:47,939 a, you know, a good, a healthy journey to becoming a customer 1547 01:06:48,811 - > 01:06:49,901 Yeah, absolutely 1548 01:06:51,129 - > 01:06:52,019 I love it. 1549 01:06:52,059 - > 01:06:52,489 Okay. 1550 01:06:52,619 - > 01:06:55,899 Well, shout out to any UserGems PMMs out there. 1551 01:06:55,939 - > 01:06:59,159 We, you've got some fans, and we are very intrigued 1552 01:06:59,159 - > 01:07:02,729 in how you could evolve your narrative and storytelling. 1553 01:07:03,489 - > 01:07:04,369 Um, okay. 1554 01:07:04,399 - > 01:07:07,389 So Ryan, I always like to make space on this podcast 1555 01:07:07,399 - > 01:07:10,409 for a moment of gratitude because in product marketing, 1556 01:07:10,409 - > 01:07:12,169 we never get to where we are without learning and 1557 01:07:12,169 - > 01:07:13,149 growing from each other. 1558 01:07:13,779 - > 01:07:15,359 Um, and we're all better for it. 1559 01:07:15,369 - > 01:07:18,859 So thank you so much for coming on this podcast, 1560 01:07:18,859 - > 01:07:22,159 sharing your case study, and you s- you've been 1561 01:07:22,169 - > 01:07:25,229 so generous with your playbook and your time. 1562 01:07:25,239 - > 01:07:27,799 So just ge- a genuine thank you so much. 1563 01:07:27,819 - > 01:07:30,079 I really appreciate it, and it's the, gonna benefit 1564 01:07:30,079 - > 01:07:31,319 the whole PMM community 1565 01:07:32,578 - > 01:07:32,818 Yeah. 1566 01:07:32,848 - > 01:07:33,248 Thank you. 1567 01:07:33,248 - > 01:07:36,678 I mean, if I have gratitude for some folks, um, you 1568 01:07:36,678 - > 01:07:39,648 know, I, I did my - I, I left my last role and I got 1569 01:07:39,648 - > 01:07:41,618 a new role within a couple months, and there were some 1570 01:07:41,628 - > 01:07:44,238 people who really helped me, uh, with that shift. 1571 01:07:44,268 - > 01:07:47,038 There was, uh, Jonathan Pipik, I think I'm saying 1572 01:07:47,048 - > 01:07:48,128 his last name correctly. 1573 01:07:48,218 - > 01:07:48,958 Uh, really great 1574 01:07:49,738 - > 01:07:49,918 marketer. 1575 01:07:50,438 - > 01:07:53,488 He gave me really good advice on, like, my portfolio. 1576 01:07:53,963 - > 01:07:57,693 Philippe from GetWise has always been, uh, you know, in 1577 01:07:57,693 - > 01:07:58,873 my corner, which is amazing. 1578 01:07:59,183 - > 01:08:01,553 Uh, my old boss, Joe Andrews, is a product 1579 01:08:01,573 - > 01:08:04,143 marketer from Zuora, who was the CMO at SupportLogic, 1580 01:08:04,543 - > 01:08:05,633 amazing product marketer. 1581 01:08:05,853 - > 01:08:09,143 Uh, Gerard Green, my current CMO, is, uh, has, he has a 1582 01:08:09,143 - > 01:08:11,583 big presence on LinkedIn, great product marketer. 1583 01:08:12,063 - > 01:08:15,543 Um, and then, you know, three kind of influencers I love, 1584 01:08:15,983 - > 01:08:19,473 Dave Gerhardt and Exit5, of course, we're all fans. 1585 01:08:19,543 - > 01:08:21,103 April Dunford, who I've mentioned probably 10 1586 01:08:21,113 - > 01:08:22,823 times, Anthony Pieri. 1587 01:08:22,873 - > 01:08:25,523 I mean, these are great voices to follow. 1588 01:08:26,073 - > 01:08:29,363 Uh, Jason Oakley's, uh, email newsletter. 1589 01:08:29,363 - > 01:08:31,023 I know he has a, a partner, I can't think 1590 01:08:31,033 - > 01:08:31,903 of his name right now. 1591 01:08:32,083 - > 01:08:33,193 Their newsletter is great. 1592 01:08:33,203 - > 01:08:35,373 Your, your, uh, podcast is great. 1593 01:08:35,373 - > 01:08:39,053 So it's so fun to be in a space that is always changing, 1594 01:08:39,453 - > 01:08:41,963 and then, you know, I get to have a day job and then 1595 01:08:41,963 - > 01:08:43,123 learn from all of you. 1596 01:08:43,253 - > 01:08:43,983 So thank you. 1597 01:08:44,683 - > 01:08:45,393 Yeah. 1598 01:08:45,393 - > 01:08:46,493 Isn't it so great? 1599 01:08:46,493 - > 01:08:48,763 I mean, our community of product marketers is just 1600 01:08:48,763 - > 01:08:51,813 filled with givers who give their time and their 1601 01:08:52,013 - > 01:08:53,683 talent and mentorship. 1602 01:08:53,683 - > 01:08:55,173 It's so lovely. 1603 01:08:55,173 - > 01:08:58,053 I love those shout-outs, and some of those folks 1604 01:08:58,083 - > 01:09:00,373 either have been on the podcast before or they've 1605 01:09:00,383 - > 01:09:04,153 been mentioned before in the moment of gratitude. 1606 01:09:04,163 - > 01:09:07,213 So, um, it's just further testament that they 1607 01:09:07,563 - > 01:09:09,183 really are awesome. 1608 01:09:10,963 - > 01:09:12,583 Okay, and this is my last question for you. 1609 01:09:12,583 - > 01:09:12,873 Ryan. 1610 01:09:12,903 - > 01:09:15,583 Where else can we access your expertise if, uh, if 1611 01:09:15,583 - > 01:09:16,543 listeners wanna reach out? 1612 01:09:17,243 - > 01:09:18,123 Yeah, just LinkedIn. 1613 01:09:18,333 - > 01:09:19,643 Uh, I'm on LinkedIn. 1614 01:09:19,693 - > 01:09:21,943 Um, I think I've been on LinkedIn so long, I 1615 01:09:21,943 - > 01:09:24,963 think my URL on LinkedIn is just /radcliffe. 1616 01:09:25,593 - > 01:09:27,773 Um, so I think it's been like 20 years 1617 01:09:27,803 - > 01:09:28,463 I've been on LinkedIn. 1618 01:09:28,903 - > 01:09:30,263 Uh, so yeah, that's, 1619 01:09:30,277 - > 01:09:30,807 Too long. 1620 01:09:31,743 - > 01:09:34,813 I, I have a portfolio but it's out. 1621 01:09:34,813 - > 01:09:37,723 I made a, I made a Notion and, uh, it was really 1622 01:09:37,723 - > 01:09:39,933 fun building all that, but since I started here, I 1623 01:09:39,933 - > 01:09:41,513 haven't touched it, so it's 1624 01:09:41,515 - > 01:09:43,555 It changes so quickly. 1625 01:09:43,635 - > 01:09:45,375 Yes, it changes really quickly. 1626 01:09:45,385 - > 01:09:46,765 So awesome. 1627 01:09:46,765 - > 01:09:48,595 Well, again, thank you so much, Ryan. 1628 01:09:48,755 - > 01:09:51,675 And hey, PMM listeners, if you like this episode, please 1629 01:09:51,715 - > 01:09:53,325 share it with a PMM friend. 1630 01:09:53,575 - > 01:09:55,265 I'd be so grateful if you would leave us a review. 1631 01:09:55,285 - > 01:09:56,845 It helps so much with our reach. 1632 01:09:57,315 - > 01:09:58,785 And thank you so much for coming on this 1633 01:09:58,785 - > 01:09:59,665 journey with us today. 1634 01:09:59,705 - > 01:10:02,105 I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to 1635 01:10:02,105 - > 01:10:04,435 take in the next step of your own journey.