Go Bold with Competition Like a Sybill PMM

1 00:00:41,901 - > 00:00:44,271 Everyone knows the story of David and Goliath. 2 00:00:44,651 - > 00:00:45,571 A giant, right? 3 00:00:46,001 - > 00:00:48,471 Bigger, stronger, and more experienced. 4 00:00:48,991 - > 00:00:52,911 And then this underdog who on paper has no business winning. 5 00:00:53,741 - > 00:00:56,751 But the part that people forget is that David didn't 6 00:00:56,771 - > 00:00:58,761 try to become a Goliath. 7 00:00:59,351 - > 00:01:00,641 He didn't put on the armor. 8 00:01:00,681 - > 00:01:03,621 He didn't try to outmatch the giant strength for strength. 9 00:01:04,101 - > 00:01:07,721 He found the one opening that actually mattered, and 10 00:01:07,721 - > 00:01:08,991 then he went all in on it. 11 00:01:09,821 - > 00:01:11,991 That's the part of the story that feels very 12 00:01:12,001 - > 00:01:15,421 real when you're a PMM sitting inside a startup. 13 00:01:16,171 - > 00:01:18,911 You look at the market leader and think they have the brand, 14 00:01:18,921 - > 00:01:21,341 they have the budget, they have the default position in 15 00:01:21,361 - > 00:01:23,091 every deal, and you don't. 16 00:01:23,871 - > 00:01:26,431 So the question becomes: how can you win? 17 00:01:27,961 - > 00:01:31,231 That's what today's episode is all about. 18 00:01:31,591 - > 00:01:33,801 We're talking about how a startup went head-to-head 19 00:01:33,801 - > 00:01:36,951 with a category leader and didn't try to outspend 20 00:01:36,971 - > 00:01:39,451 them or out-feature them, although there are 21 00:01:39,451 - > 00:01:42,451 some significant product differences in this scenario. 22 00:01:43,221 - > 00:01:46,201 But seriously, they got painfully clear on where 23 00:01:46,201 - > 00:01:49,341 the leader was weak and built an entire go-to-market 24 00:01:49,341 - > 00:01:50,291 motion around it. 25 00:01:50,791 - > 00:01:53,611 I could not think of a better person to walk us through this 26 00:01:53,681 - > 00:01:57,651 than today's guest, Collin Mayjack Collin is leading 27 00:01:57,651 - > 00:02:00,461 product marketing at Sibyll where he's been at the center 28 00:02:00,461 - > 00:02:03,321 of one of the hardest plays in B2B, competing directly 29 00:02:03,321 - > 00:02:06,351 with a category leader and turning it into real pipeline. 30 00:02:06,871 - > 00:02:09,021 Before Sibyll he was a product marketer at GoFundMe, 31 00:02:09,051 - > 00:02:11,731 working on a platform that millions of people rely 32 00:02:11,731 - > 00:02:14,001 on during some of the most emotional and important 33 00:02:14,001 - > 00:02:15,041 moments of their lives. 34 00:02:15,561 - > 00:02:19,331 So he's seen firsthand what it takes to build trust and drive 35 00:02:19,331 - > 00:02:23,841 adoption at scale, not just inside a niche market, but in 36 00:02:23,841 - > 00:02:26,611 products tied to real human emotion and decision-making. 37 00:02:27,641 - > 00:02:30,181 What it ta - but what makes Collin's background especially 38 00:02:30,181 - > 00:02:32,691 interesting is that before product marketing, he was 39 00:02:32,831 - > 00:02:36,141 actually a pastor, which means long before he was building 40 00:02:36,141 - > 00:02:38,911 positioning and messaging, he was learning how to connect 41 00:02:38,911 - > 00:02:42,351 with people, earn trust, and move people through belief. 42 00:02:43,031 - > 00:02:44,571 Sounds pretty close to a product marketer, 43 00:02:44,571 - > 00:02:45,391 if you ask me. 44 00:02:46,123 - > 00:02:48,053 Collin, I'm so excited to have you on the show. 45 00:02:48,541 - > 00:02:48,961 Hey, Elle. 46 00:02:48,961 - > 00:02:50,121 I am so happy to be here. 47 00:02:50,141 - > 00:02:53,532 That was such a kind and gracious intro, so thank 48 00:02:53,532 - > 00:02:55,032 you for, for having me 49 00:02:55,646 - > 00:02:57,066 Yes, of course. 50 00:02:57,106 - > 00:02:59,486 I know I've been really looking forward to this 51 00:02:59,486 - > 00:03:02,842 conversation for a very, very long time, so Okay, so 52 00:03:03,372 - > 00:03:06,611 before we get started on the actual case study, let's get 53 00:03:06,611 - > 00:03:07,781 the listeners up to speed. 54 00:03:07,911 - > 00:03:09,671 What is Sybill exactly? 55 00:03:10,601 - > 00:03:10,971 Yeah. 56 00:03:10,971 - > 00:03:14,301 So I like to think of Sybill as a shared memory 57 00:03:14,311 - > 00:03:17,111 for all of your sales and go-to-market team. 58 00:03:17,121 - > 00:03:21,041 So it captures everything from your CRM activity 59 00:03:21,041 - > 00:03:24,351 to your emails, to all of your calls, and pulls that 60 00:03:24,361 - > 00:03:28,301 all into one memory or one context layer that your 61 00:03:28,311 - > 00:03:30,181 whole team can pull from. 62 00:03:30,181 - > 00:03:33,321 So AEs can figure out what the best reps have 63 00:03:33,321 - > 00:03:34,651 said to close a deal. 64 00:03:34,841 - > 00:03:37,691 Your CRO can understand what's actually happening 65 00:03:37,731 - > 00:03:38,471 in their pipeline. 66 00:03:38,471 - > 00:03:40,931 So instead of kind of generic, "Oh, your pipeline's at 67 00:03:40,931 - > 00:03:44,091 risk," they can get like a real-time insight on, "Hey, 68 00:03:44,091 - > 00:03:47,111 this deal is at risk because of XYZ." And then sales 69 00:03:47,111 - > 00:03:49,981 managers get all the context they need from their best 70 00:03:49,981 - > 00:03:53,221 reps to coach reps on how to do better in their role. 71 00:03:53,531 - > 00:03:54,751 So that's how I tend to think of it. 72 00:03:54,751 - > 00:03:57,421 We compete in kind of the conversational intelligence 73 00:03:57,431 - > 00:03:58,331 sort of category. 74 00:03:58,331 - > 00:04:01,911 So your, the Goliath you hinted at earlier is Gong 75 00:04:01,941 - > 00:04:04,861 for us, but that's, that's our product and the way that 76 00:04:04,861 - > 00:04:05,571 I like to think about it. 77 00:04:06,279 - > 00:04:07,629 Yeah, that's so helpful. 78 00:04:07,639 - > 00:04:10,069 Um, so I'm sure it's super beneficial across 79 00:04:10,639 - > 00:04:13,179 basically the entire go-to-market function to 80 00:04:13,179 - > 00:04:16,269 be able to see and have access to that transparency 81 00:04:16,659 - > 00:04:17,709 within every deal. 82 00:04:17,829 - > 00:04:19,589 I could see how that's super useful. 83 00:04:19,879 - > 00:04:22,739 Um, so excited to hear more about how Sybill is 84 00:04:22,759 - > 00:04:24,659 competing directly with Gong. 85 00:04:24,879 - > 00:04:27,439 So let's start with that as our case study. 86 00:04:28,199 - > 00:04:30,459 I think a lot of PMMs listening are probably 87 00:04:30,459 - > 00:04:32,129 in really similar situations, right? 88 00:04:32,129 - > 00:04:34,649 Like, you don't work for the market leader. 89 00:04:34,984 - > 00:04:38,864 you're competing for the same budget from your customer. 90 00:04:39,480 - > 00:04:41,404 and bu- sometimes buyers don't even consider 91 00:04:41,404 - > 00:04:43,194 you, or they don't know about you, especially 92 00:04:43,194 - > 00:04:43,794 if you're a startup. 93 00:04:44,174 - > 00:04:47,964 So take me back to what was going on at Sybill 94 00:04:48,094 - > 00:04:51,024 when you realized that something needed to change? 95 00:04:51,358 - > 00:04:51,637 Yeah. 96 00:04:51,637 - > 00:04:54,587 So when, when I joined Sybill, we were kind of in this 97 00:04:54,597 - > 00:04:56,997 transition period where there were a lot of people who were 98 00:04:56,997 - > 00:04:59,957 thinking about us just kind of as a generic note-taker. 99 00:05:00,397 - > 00:05:02,887 But what we were actually seeing was, one, we were 100 00:05:02,897 - > 00:05:05,887 built for sales teams, and two, we were getting a lot 101 00:05:05,887 - > 00:05:09,307 of traction with companies that were switching from Gong 102 00:05:09,467 - > 00:05:12,317 to Sybill and just finding a, a really strong fit. 103 00:05:12,537 - > 00:05:15,167 We were finding a lot of discontent with, uh, the AI 104 00:05:15,177 - > 00:05:18,647 performance in, in Gong and a lot of, like, the actual 105 00:05:18,687 - > 00:05:20,857 accuracy of the insights Gong would service about 106 00:05:20,857 - > 00:05:21,777 what's happening in deals. 107 00:05:22,037 - > 00:05:25,787 So we're seeing this just big volume of people, one, 108 00:05:25,887 - > 00:05:28,887 who were Gong customers and then considering us, and 109 00:05:28,937 - > 00:05:31,207 then once they get that - to that consideration stage, 110 00:05:31,217 - > 00:05:33,717 actually moving through and switching over to Sybill. 111 00:05:34,597 - > 00:05:37,217 And as you mentioned earlier, we, we compete very 112 00:05:37,217 - > 00:05:38,957 much for the same budget line most of the time. 113 00:05:38,957 - > 00:05:40,887 There are some situations where they might work 114 00:05:40,887 - > 00:05:43,517 together, but for the most part, you're only 115 00:05:43,517 - > 00:05:46,567 gonna pay for one kind of conversational intelligence 116 00:05:46,867 - > 00:05:48,977 tool, and it's us versus Gong. 117 00:05:49,437 - > 00:05:52,357 But the pa- pattern we were seeing was that across all of 118 00:05:52,357 - > 00:05:56,167 our deals, the deals that we had the best time winning were 119 00:05:56,177 - > 00:05:57,227 when we were up against Gong. 120 00:05:57,927 - > 00:06:00,147 And then two, we were in the spot where we didn't have 121 00:06:00,147 - > 00:06:02,547 a lot of brand familiarity, and everyone knew Gong. 122 00:06:02,877 - > 00:06:04,827 And so we were starting to get these signals that when we 123 00:06:04,827 - > 00:06:08,617 attached ourselves in people's minds as a Gong alternative, 124 00:06:08,847 - > 00:06:12,057 we got more traction than we otherwise would have 125 00:06:12,675 - > 00:06:13,525 Ah, okay. 126 00:06:13,525 - > 00:06:15,705 So first you started with this, like, pattern 127 00:06:15,705 - > 00:06:18,715 recognition that was coming out of your own, 128 00:06:19,197 - > 00:06:22,342 analysis from all of the deals that you've seen. 129 00:06:22,552 - > 00:06:24,432 So what did you do with that once you realized 130 00:06:24,452 - > 00:06:26,672 that pattern recognition? 131 00:06:26,772 - > 00:06:29,172 Did you see that as more of, like, an opportunity, and was 132 00:06:29,172 - > 00:06:32,282 it kind of like, you know, experimenting from there? 133 00:06:32,532 - > 00:06:33,982 Kind of walk me through where you… What you 134 00:06:33,982 - > 00:06:34,922 did with that insight 135 00:06:35,298 - > 00:06:38,978 Yeah, so I, I saw this opportunity that, uh, if we 136 00:06:38,978 - > 00:06:42,388 were to attach ourselves to a giant, we could, we could get 137 00:06:42,388 - > 00:06:44,068 this awareness and get this traction that we otherwise 138 00:06:44,068 - > 00:06:44,848 wouldn't - couldn't get. 139 00:06:45,008 - > 00:06:48,358 So we - I knew I wanted to, A, drive brand 140 00:06:48,358 - > 00:06:49,088 awareness for Sybill. 141 00:06:49,088 - > 00:06:51,228 I joined Sybill, and almost no one knew that we existed. 142 00:06:51,728 - > 00:06:54,758 And then two, I knew that at our size, if we could 143 00:06:54,758 - > 00:06:59,378 even just capture some of Gong's churn, like Gong's 144 00:06:59,378 - > 00:07:01,458 a 300 million ARR company. 145 00:07:01,758 - > 00:07:03,588 Like, and if - so let's assume 10% churn. 146 00:07:03,618 - > 00:07:06,598 If we could capture even half of their churn, that would be 147 00:07:06,678 - > 00:07:09,788 an incredible growth rate for a startup of - at our size. 148 00:07:10,338 - > 00:07:14,278 And so I knew I wanted to do everything we could to, to 149 00:07:14,278 - > 00:07:17,058 do that, to see how, how can we benefit from their brand 150 00:07:17,058 - > 00:07:20,378 familiarity to boost our own, and then capture some, 151 00:07:20,418 - > 00:07:21,538 some of their market share 152 00:07:22,201 - > 00:07:24,841 I love that you kind of, you, um, identified even 153 00:07:24,841 - > 00:07:26,701 what a good, like, measure of success would be. 154 00:07:26,951 - > 00:07:30,191 Like, like capturing their, their churn rate and 155 00:07:30,671 - > 00:07:34,081 having the, the critical thinking skills to even 156 00:07:34,091 - > 00:07:37,121 think about, like, comparing size and what a churn 157 00:07:37,131 - > 00:07:40,691 for a huge Goliath-sized company versus, you know, 158 00:07:40,741 - > 00:07:42,961 more of a David-sized company, we'll say. 159 00:07:43,575 - > 00:07:47,765 and a lot of what you put together with this, 160 00:07:47,796 - > 00:07:50,674 positioning, some of it is competitive strategy, 161 00:07:50,684 - > 00:07:55,214 some of it is more like competitive storytelling. 162 00:07:55,274 - > 00:07:57,174 So it's like storytelling plus positioning. 163 00:07:57,514 - > 00:07:59,774 I guess, like, and you went very loud. 164 00:07:59,784 - > 00:08:03,064 You were very direct with, you know, a lot of this. 165 00:08:03,480 - > 00:08:06,780 So, you know, I guess, like, walk me through 166 00:08:06,820 - > 00:08:08,910 Oh, before we, before we get to that point, actually, 167 00:08:08,910 - > 00:08:11,462 like, as you were, you s- you know, you set out this 168 00:08:11,462 - > 00:08:14,142 goal of the churn, do you feel like you have, like, 169 00:08:14,142 - > 00:08:18,122 a strong result for all of the effort and, like, 170 00:08:18,162 - > 00:08:20,572 I guess, like, experiments that you have been running? 171 00:08:21,356 - > 00:08:21,656 Yeah 172 00:08:21,656 - > 00:08:23,916 I think the, the shortest way to put it is that 173 00:08:23,916 - > 00:08:27,316 right now our win rate is 80% against Gong. 174 00:08:27,316 - > 00:08:30,286 So anytime that a customer is in active deal analysis, 175 00:08:30,676 - > 00:08:34,466 uh, comparing Sybill versus Gong, we have a very high win 176 00:08:34,466 - > 00:08:36,216 rate with them, and I think some of that comes down to 177 00:08:36,226 - > 00:08:37,326 our messaging and positioning. 178 00:08:37,616 - > 00:08:40,136 And then we have a number of deals over the last 179 00:08:40,206 - > 00:08:42,708 nine months, like if I go into Sybill and I ask, 180 00:08:42,958 - > 00:08:43,978 "Who are we winning with?" 181 00:08:44,358 - > 00:08:47,358 Sybill surfaces the top insight is Gong switchers 182 00:08:47,418 - > 00:08:48,368 is who we're winning with. 183 00:08:48,378 - > 00:08:49,008 So a significant 184 00:08:49,008 - > 00:08:50,568 amount of our revenue growth over the last, 185 00:08:51,031 - > 00:08:53,761 eight or nine months has been from Gong switchers. 186 00:08:53,831 - > 00:08:55,491 And as a company, since we've joined… I 187 00:08:55,491 - > 00:08:56,961 mean, we are a startup. 188 00:08:57,001 - > 00:08:59,611 We are a Series A. There's a lot of pressure to grow fast. 189 00:08:59,901 - > 00:09:05,361 We have doubled our ARR from September through April, so 190 00:09:05,631 - > 00:09:08,281 over 100% increase in that time, which really closely 191 00:09:08,281 - > 00:09:12,741 coincides with this choice to go all in on going after Gong. 192 00:09:12,941 - > 00:09:14,401 S- something's working 193 00:09:14,731 - > 00:09:17,401 yeah, I think the - I don't, I don't always think like 194 00:09:17,441 - > 00:09:19,764 attribution is a neat line, a lot of times we'll make these 195 00:09:19,764 - > 00:09:22,354 efforts and there's kind of a following more intuition 196 00:09:22,354 - > 00:09:24,434 than we like to often admit. 197 00:09:24,868 - > 00:09:27,508 but for us, I think I saw this opportunity and I knew 198 00:09:27,508 - > 00:09:30,768 that at our size, we had the luxury where we could be very 199 00:09:30,768 - > 00:09:34,508 loud and very vocal, and that there was an opportunity for 200 00:09:34,508 - > 00:09:38,088 us that if there is a kind of status quo and you can 201 00:09:38,088 - > 00:09:42,038 come in and you can critique that status quo, people 202 00:09:42,038 - > 00:09:44,818 are immediately interested because they're either using 203 00:09:44,818 - > 00:09:47,728 Go- uh, using the status quo, in this case Gong, or 204 00:09:47,728 - > 00:09:50,418 they're familiar enough with it that they are immediately 205 00:09:50,428 - > 00:09:52,338 intrigued if you come along and say something's different. 206 00:09:52,378 - > 00:09:54,448 This is very much like what Slack did with email. 207 00:09:54,648 - > 00:09:57,708 Slack came along and started picking a fight with email, 208 00:09:57,708 - > 00:09:59,498 and they got a ton of traction, and obviously they 209 00:09:59,498 - > 00:10:00,518 became what they did today. 210 00:10:00,808 - > 00:10:03,768 And so I felt like at our size, we could name 211 00:10:03,768 - > 00:10:06,188 and go after our Goliath. 212 00:10:06,344 - > 00:10:08,529 was a luxury that you have at, at our size. 213 00:10:08,539 - > 00:10:10,449 No one's gonna be mad at us for punching up 214 00:10:10,739 - > 00:10:13,699 in the same way that if Gong went after us, it 215 00:10:13,699 - > 00:10:14,529 would not land the same. 216 00:10:14,582 - > 00:10:15,782 Oh, totally. 217 00:10:15,822 - > 00:10:16,302 Yeah. 218 00:10:16,382 - > 00:10:18,212 It would, they would, they would get some heat for that. 219 00:10:18,907 - > 00:10:19,237 Yeah. 220 00:10:19,337 - > 00:10:20,147 Oh, 100%, yeah. 221 00:10:20,597 - > 00:10:22,787 So I'm, I'm happy to break down kind of, uh, our 222 00:10:22,787 - > 00:10:24,907 flow and sort of how we, how we went through it. 223 00:10:25,265 - > 00:10:27,116 I think we saw this opportunity and we 224 00:10:27,116 - > 00:10:29,566 started creating this really loud content. 225 00:10:29,566 - > 00:10:30,296 So we tested it. 226 00:10:30,306 - > 00:10:32,316 The first test, it was a post of mine that went 227 00:10:32,326 - > 00:10:35,927 semi-viral, right around the era of Spotify Wrapped. 228 00:10:36,237 - > 00:10:39,587 I put together a Gong Wrapped, and basically what it did was 229 00:10:39,587 - > 00:10:42,157 it took - The same way that Spotify kind of gamifies all 230 00:10:42,157 - > 00:10:44,487 of your numbers from the year, I took these numbers that 231 00:10:44,487 - > 00:10:48,407 were rooted in customer pain points for Gong customers and 232 00:10:48,407 - > 00:10:50,757 tried to quantify them and say, "All right, you spent 233 00:10:51,027 - > 00:10:54,457 56 hours digging through call recordings to get an answer. 234 00:10:54,687 - > 00:10:56,717 You set up 22 trackers that. 235 00:10:56,727 - > 00:10:59,997 didn't fire, and on - Gong is increasing your 236 00:11:00,007 - > 00:11:02,947 pricing by 20%," like all of these hard numbers, 237 00:11:03,507 - > 00:11:05,597 and it sort of took off 238 00:11:06,347 - > 00:11:08,027 Yeah, and then it just iterated from there. 239 00:11:08,057 - > 00:11:09,787 I feel like you get, you do running one 240 00:11:09,787 - > 00:11:10,617 experiment like that. 241 00:11:10,617 - > 00:11:12,207 Maybe you didn't even realize that it was going 242 00:11:12,207 - > 00:11:12,907 to be an experiment. 243 00:11:12,927 - > 00:11:14,857 It was just something in your gut that you knew, like, 244 00:11:14,897 - > 00:11:16,297 I have to talk about this. 245 00:11:16,827 - > 00:11:19,277 And then that it kind of like iterates from there. 246 00:11:19,667 - > 00:11:23,037 What I would love to do too is take some of these 247 00:11:23,407 - > 00:11:25,537 examples that you're sharing, especially things like from 248 00:11:25,537 - > 00:11:28,318 social and such, and if it's all right with you, 249 00:11:28,348 - > 00:11:29,468 link them in the show notes. 250 00:11:29,908 - > 00:11:32,784 That way our listeners can kind of go back in history 251 00:11:32,784 - > 00:11:35,130 and feel like they're part of the drama as it 252 00:11:35,632 - > 00:11:36,172 Yes. 253 00:11:36,272 - > 00:11:37,662 Well, the receipts are all there 254 00:11:39,120 - > 00:11:39,630 Love it. 255 00:11:39,660 - > 00:11:40,090 Okay. 256 00:11:40,330 - > 00:11:43,170 So let's take this case study and let's turn 257 00:11:43,170 - > 00:11:44,000 this into a playbook. 258 00:11:44,040 - > 00:11:47,313 Imagine that, you've obviously still, you're still going 259 00:11:47,323 - > 00:11:50,343 up against your Goliath, so the story continues. 260 00:11:50,383 - > 00:11:52,803 But imagine that, you know, you're coaching me on 261 00:11:52,803 - > 00:11:56,673 this, and I'm at a startup, you know, maybe solo PMM, 262 00:11:56,693 - > 00:12:00,297 maybe solo marketer, and, I've got my Goliath that 263 00:12:00,297 - > 00:12:00,927 I'm going up against. 264 00:12:00,927 - > 00:12:02,947 So maybe different context a little bit. 265 00:12:03,007 - > 00:12:05,217 Maybe I'm a different market, so we'll have to 266 00:12:05,217 - > 00:12:06,107 strip out some of that. 267 00:12:06,347 - > 00:12:08,627 So I guess, like, as you're coaching me through this, 268 00:12:08,627 - > 00:12:10,357 like, what's the first thing that I need to do? 269 00:12:10,357 - > 00:12:11,417 What would step one be? 270 00:12:11,918 - > 00:12:12,338 Yeah. 271 00:12:12,388 - > 00:12:16,248 I think for - This is a true product marketing answer, 272 00:12:16,578 - > 00:12:19,528 but I think if you're gonna go after an incumbent, you 273 00:12:19,528 - > 00:12:21,498 have to recognize they are an incumbent for a reason. 274 00:12:22,128 - > 00:12:24,668 So you have to get very clear on what is your 275 00:12:24,668 - > 00:12:26,278 competitive differentiation. 276 00:12:26,418 - > 00:12:30,238 Like, what, what do you have that they do not? 277 00:12:30,828 - > 00:12:34,668 And get very clear and dialed on that as a whole 278 00:12:34,668 - > 00:12:37,978 team, and let that color every single asset that 279 00:12:37,978 - > 00:12:38,588 you're gonna create. 280 00:12:38,588 - > 00:12:40,988 So for us, uh, the thing that we were initially 281 00:12:40,988 - > 00:12:43,648 leaning into was that Gong was really good at setting 282 00:12:43,648 - > 00:12:47,048 up trackers where you could listen to call recordings, 283 00:12:47,058 - > 00:12:48,718 it could - you could get really nice summaries. 284 00:12:49,068 - > 00:12:51,718 Uh, but what it didn't allow you to do was to 285 00:12:51,738 - > 00:12:54,828 kind of in a GPT sort of interface, ask questions 286 00:12:54,828 - > 00:12:56,558 across all of your calls. 287 00:12:56,788 - > 00:12:59,468 You could ask a, a lot about one call, but you could a- 288 00:12:59,568 - > 00:13:01,768 but you can't ask about, "Hey, tell me, look at 289 00:13:01,768 - > 00:13:05,498 the last 90 days worth of calls and tell me what our 290 00:13:05,498 - > 00:13:08,948 best rep has said about ob- objection X." Like it just, 291 00:13:08,968 - > 00:13:10,138 it couldn't contain that. 292 00:13:10,288 - > 00:13:10,908 Sybill could. 293 00:13:11,378 - > 00:13:14,188 And so I started leaning - we started get- pointing out 294 00:13:14,188 - > 00:13:16,328 that, all right, this ability to query across all of your 295 00:13:16,328 - > 00:13:20,548 calls at once, this is kind of our special sauce that 296 00:13:20,548 - > 00:13:22,628 we, uh, were able to identify really, really quickly. 297 00:13:22,628 - > 00:13:23,498 There's some other ones. 298 00:13:23,498 - > 00:13:26,438 I, I think AI accuracy was, was another one that came 299 00:13:26,438 - > 00:13:29,832 up a lot, but w- that was a byproduct of, again, Sybill's 300 00:13:29,872 - > 00:13:33,232 ability to look at all of that data at once rather 301 00:13:33,232 - > 00:13:34,562 than one call at a time. 302 00:13:34,622 - > 00:13:35,462 So I think that would be? 303 00:13:35,462 - > 00:13:35,802 important. 304 00:13:35,812 - > 00:13:38,042 Like fundamental one is if you're gonna actually 305 00:13:38,082 - > 00:13:40,032 critique that competitor, you have to know how you're 306 00:13:40,032 - > 00:13:42,802 different and get very pointed with it if anyone's 307 00:13:42,802 - > 00:13:43,762 gonna pay attention to you. 308 00:13:44,700 - > 00:13:47,240 Is there, and I thank you for giving the example too, 'cause 309 00:13:47,240 - > 00:13:48,370 I think that's really helpful. 310 00:13:48,719 - > 00:13:52,059 just to, to dig a, a tiny bit deeper into your approach in 311 00:13:52,179 - > 00:13:55,379 finding your differentiation, 'cause I have heard, which 312 00:13:55,379 - > 00:13:59,359 I, I'd never agree with, but I have heard, um, 313 00:13:59,379 - > 00:14:02,319 marketers and PMMs say that they, they can't figure out 314 00:14:02,319 - > 00:14:04,329 what's different between them and their competitors. 315 00:14:04,339 - > 00:14:07,079 Any quick tips or suggestions on, like, how to get there? 316 00:14:07,911 - > 00:14:08,221 Yeah. 317 00:14:08,221 - > 00:14:12,021 I mean, the, the simplest way I think comes back to like the 318 00:14:12,021 - > 00:14:14,902 fundamental of just talking to customers if s- particularly 319 00:14:14,902 - > 00:14:15,632 if they have switched. 320 00:14:15,632 - > 00:14:17,662 Like if you're trying to run this same playbook and 321 00:14:17,662 - > 00:14:20,252 you have customers who were willing to make that switch, 322 00:14:20,622 - > 00:14:21,872 something motivated them. 323 00:14:21,872 - > 00:14:24,102 There's so much friction to switch vendors really with 324 00:14:24,102 - > 00:14:25,432 any product that there? 325 00:14:25,432 - > 00:14:27,492 was something that motivated them, and it may not be as 326 00:14:27,492 - > 00:14:30,431 obvious as a very strict capability or feature. 327 00:14:30,431 - > 00:14:32,211 Sometimes it's more of like a philosophy. 328 00:14:32,211 - > 00:14:34,721 So when I was at GoFundMe, we used to talk a lot about the 329 00:14:34,721 - > 00:14:39,181 flexibility of the platform, and that was not one feature. 330 00:14:39,191 - > 00:14:41,091 That's just kind of like a philosophy that we 331 00:14:41,091 - > 00:14:42,491 approach the product with. 332 00:14:42,491 - > 00:14:46,001 So we would market a lot this idea of like brand flexibility 333 00:14:46,011 - > 00:14:49,161 and, the flexibility of different plugins and tools 334 00:14:49,161 - > 00:14:50,151 that you can integrate with. 335 00:14:50,431 - > 00:14:52,751 Again, it was like mo- almost a step above rather than 336 00:14:52,751 - > 00:14:54,031 like a granular feature. 337 00:14:54,171 - > 00:14:55,351 Brand becomes another one. 338 00:14:55,581 - > 00:14:57,701 But if you could get in touch with why would someone take 339 00:14:57,701 - > 00:15:00,221 the time to switch, you're probably pretty close to 340 00:15:00,221 - > 00:15:03,592 finding what that motivation was and therefore what 341 00:15:03,592 - > 00:15:04,662 your differentiation was. 342 00:15:05,348 - > 00:15:06,068 I love that. 343 00:15:06,088 - > 00:15:06,828 So helpful. 344 00:15:07,168 - > 00:15:10,748 Okay, so step one, get super clear on my differentiation. 345 00:15:11,168 - > 00:15:11,388 What's 346 00:15:11,486 - > 00:15:11,776 Yeah. 347 00:15:12,656 - > 00:15:15,485 The second step would be to The kinda inverse of that 348 00:15:15,485 - > 00:15:18,795 differentiation is the pain points that might exist with 349 00:15:18,795 - > 00:15:20,365 that existing incumbent. 350 00:15:20,365 - > 00:15:23,985 So like getting very, very clear on what are all the 351 00:15:23,985 - > 00:15:27,165 frustrations that people have with that status 352 00:15:27,165 - > 00:15:29,195 quo Goliath, if you will. 353 00:15:29,455 - > 00:15:30,945 So for us, there's, there's kind of two? 354 00:15:30,945 - > 00:15:32,595 sort of different plays that we ran here. 355 00:15:32,595 - > 00:15:34,095 One was the Gong Wrapped one. 356 00:15:34,115 - > 00:15:36,525 So I literally, I went, I dug into Reddit, and I 357 00:15:36,525 - > 00:15:38,295 looked at all the things that people were frustrated 358 00:15:38,295 - > 00:15:41,235 about with Gong, and I just amplified those, kicked up 359 00:15:41,235 - > 00:15:44,395 the dust in that Gong Wrapped sort of, sort of promo. 360 00:15:44,905 - > 00:15:48,515 The second one was I, I - this was the one that probably 361 00:15:48,515 - > 00:15:51,115 got me the most heat, is on April Fools, I announced 362 00:15:51,115 - > 00:15:55,548 that I was moving from Sybill to Gong, and it was right 363 00:15:55,548 - > 00:15:57,598 on the line of satire where people couldn't fully tell. 364 00:15:57,598 - > 00:16:00,448 But if you read closely, one of my lines was like, 365 00:16:00,488 - > 00:16:03,068 "I'm super excited to move from an environment where I 366 00:16:03,068 - > 00:16:06,788 ship every week to shipping annually." And it was just 367 00:16:06,788 - > 00:16:09,778 like a subtle dig at like Gong is not innovating at 368 00:16:09,778 - > 00:16:11,546 the speed that it used to. 369 00:16:11,976 - > 00:16:15,486 And I think people get so reticent about this, but I, I 370 00:16:15,486 - > 00:16:18,376 do think, I, I'll keep saying this, this is a playbook that 371 00:16:18,386 - > 00:16:21,776 you can only really run as a startup, and it's a luxury 372 00:16:21,776 - > 00:16:24,985 that you have, that you can find those pain points and 373 00:16:24,985 - > 00:16:27,485 you can actually amplify them, which is what we did. 374 00:16:27,485 - > 00:16:30,385 We were very loud, very vocal about these, 375 00:16:30,535 - > 00:16:31,415 about these pain points. 376 00:16:31,425 - > 00:16:33,745 And people hear them and they think, "Oh, I, I felt 377 00:16:33,745 - > 00:16:36,015 that. Like I - that's, that's true for me." We know this 378 00:16:36,015 - > 00:16:36,915 in marketing in general. 379 00:16:36,915 - > 00:16:39,595 We just don't tend to do it as pointedly with competitors. 380 00:16:40,025 - > 00:16:42,195 But I think this, again, is an opportunity that you have 381 00:16:42,195 - > 00:16:45,245 if you're in a startup and you have this kind of large 382 00:16:45,540 - > 00:16:46,685 competitor you're up against 383 00:16:47,267 - > 00:16:47,777 Totally. 384 00:16:47,827 - > 00:16:51,323 And the bigger the Goliath, probably the more you'll 385 00:16:51,323 - > 00:16:54,543 be able to find some of those frustrations in, 386 00:16:54,543 - > 00:16:59,023 like, a Reddit community or, you know, other online 387 00:16:59,023 - > 00:17:00,533 communities and forums. 388 00:17:00,653 - > 00:17:03,133 I know for example, in like the IT world, there's like 389 00:17:03,133 - > 00:17:05,733 Spiceworks is another common forum where people go and 390 00:17:05,733 - > 00:17:06,843 complain about vendors. 391 00:17:06,853 - > 00:17:09,923 So there are places you can go and find things. 392 00:17:10,027 - > 00:17:12,837 so I'm curious, other than Reddit, are there any other 393 00:17:13,487 - > 00:17:16,547 online entities that you'd recommend to try to find 394 00:17:16,547 - > 00:17:17,787 some of those frustrations? 395 00:17:18,219 - > 00:17:20,849 Uh, comment sections tend to be a good one. 396 00:17:20,859 - > 00:17:23,019 If people are really frustrated with a vendor, 397 00:17:23,249 - > 00:17:26,513 they will comment on that vendor's social media, and 398 00:17:26,513 - > 00:17:28,623 so sometimes that's a good place to come through. 399 00:17:29,047 - > 00:17:30,267 that one has, has definitely come up. 400 00:17:30,267 - > 00:17:31,767 And then the, the switchers tend to be 401 00:17:31,767 - > 00:17:32,637 a good one again too. 402 00:17:32,657 - > 00:17:34,167 Like that's - those are the ones that are gonna most 403 00:17:34,327 - > 00:17:36,897 neatly tie back to your product, that if someone 404 00:17:36,907 - > 00:17:40,547 has switched from big vendor to you, they have - I, one 405 00:17:40,547 - > 00:17:43,137 of my favorite quotes was I interviewed an AE who 406 00:17:43,137 - > 00:17:47,186 switched from Gong to Sybill, and she has this, uh, like 407 00:17:47,196 - > 00:17:49,916 in a conversation she just said, "Sybill's AI is so 408 00:17:49,916 - > 00:17:51,086 much better than Gong's." 409 00:17:51,686 - > 00:17:54,356 Uh, and then she said like, "I, I would have my manager 410 00:17:54,376 - > 00:17:56,976 ask like, tell me to run something in Gong, and 411 00:17:56,976 - > 00:18:01,346 the AI, the AI was never accurate." And so I was 412 00:18:01,346 - > 00:18:05,346 like, "This is gold." And I was able to use that and put 413 00:18:05,346 - > 00:18:07,336 it into some of our assets kinda later on, or even 414 00:18:07,336 - > 00:18:10,046 just tease it, tease it out across different, different 415 00:18:10,056 - > 00:18:10,736 things we were running. 416 00:18:11,616 - > 00:18:14,759 But again, I think anyone who has made that switch, I think 417 00:18:14,759 - > 00:18:17,099 that's an early signal for you that you have, there's an 418 00:18:17,109 - > 00:18:19,679 actual tactic to be had here, and then those people tend 419 00:18:19,679 - > 00:18:22,449 to have just the best pulse on what you could be saying 420 00:18:22,859 - > 00:18:23,259 Yeah. 421 00:18:23,309 - > 00:18:23,949 So helpful. 422 00:18:23,949 - > 00:18:26,669 And I, anchoring on the customer frus- frustration. 423 00:18:26,989 - > 00:18:30,039 The other reason why that is a good one is because 424 00:18:30,249 - > 00:18:32,719 you didn't make it up as part of a competitive 425 00:18:32,719 - > 00:18:33,679 analysis, you know? 426 00:18:33,679 - > 00:18:35,960 I mean, of course it, in a way, you kind of had 427 00:18:35,960 - > 00:18:39,760 this always on competitive analysis, but you didn't, 428 00:18:39,770 - > 00:18:43,670 like, pick something out that fit really nicely into, like, 429 00:18:43,670 - > 00:18:45,060 a feature comparison, right? 430 00:18:45,090 - > 00:18:48,670 It was, it came straight from the customer's mouth. 431 00:18:49,158 - > 00:18:50,488 I was just gonna say, yeah, if you can make it 432 00:18:50,488 - > 00:18:53,949 feel less like it came off of your Harvey Ball 433 00:18:54,059 - > 00:18:56,339 comparison grid, which No one 434 00:18:56,339 - > 00:18:57,189 trusts anyway. 435 00:18:57,439 - > 00:18:59,119 Uh, like it's like there, there are always these 436 00:18:59,119 - > 00:19:00,319 misleading things of like 437 00:19:00,992 - > 00:19:02,462 How did they even come up with that? 438 00:19:02,472 - > 00:19:02,752 Like 439 00:19:03,249 - > 00:19:04,359 I don't know how we got here. 440 00:19:04,359 - > 00:19:07,779 I think I, I imagine at once upon a time it was helpful, 441 00:19:07,839 - > 00:19:09,789 but now it's just kind of always become stacked. 442 00:19:09,799 - > 00:19:11,899 It comes up all the time where, I mean, we had 443 00:19:11,899 - > 00:19:14,079 a competitor, we have a competitor right now who 444 00:19:14,079 - > 00:19:18,209 has runs ads to a comparison page against Sybill. 445 00:19:19,119 - > 00:19:21,409 And l- I, I messaged their h- their content 446 00:19:21,409 - > 00:19:22,259 marketer who owns that? 447 00:19:22,259 - > 00:19:23,129 page and was Like 448 00:19:23,129 - > 00:19:26,399 "Hey, just a heads up, nine out of 10 of these bullets 449 00:19:26,399 - > 00:19:27,569 are actually inaccurate. 450 00:19:27,589 - > 00:19:30,099 Would you be up for modifying it?" They never did. 451 00:19:30,389 - > 00:19:33,244 Uh, but peop- I, I'm, I'm of the opinion now that 452 00:19:33,244 - > 00:19:37,014 people are smart enough to know that if you give, if 453 00:19:37,014 - > 00:19:40,394 you give insights about a competitor that are strictly 454 00:19:40,394 - > 00:19:43,214 self-serving and not actually rooted in people's experience, 455 00:19:43,424 - > 00:19:44,294 they can sniff it out 456 00:19:45,324 - > 00:19:46,604 totally, 100%. 457 00:19:47,024 - > 00:19:51,320 So, um, okay, so coming back to you're finding all 458 00:19:51,320 - > 00:19:52,530 these customer frustrations. 459 00:19:52,530 - > 00:19:54,830 Maybe it's in a comment section, you know, whatever. 460 00:19:55,226 - > 00:19:59,912 I'm curious on, was some of the content in, that 461 00:19:59,922 - > 00:20:02,462 you're coming up with, it seems like mo- the majority 462 00:20:02,462 - > 00:20:05,682 of it is on social media, but we'll come back to kind 463 00:20:05,682 - > 00:20:06,702 of like that in a minute. 464 00:20:06,932 - > 00:20:10,242 But, um, is this like, do you have like a methodical 465 00:20:10,252 - > 00:20:14,602 process for coming up with some of these, you know, 466 00:20:14,602 - > 00:20:16,262 little content pieces? 467 00:20:16,382 - > 00:20:20,602 Or is it kind of like an ad hoc, as the opportunity 468 00:20:20,622 - > 00:20:23,922 comes your way, you kind of seize it and move forward? 469 00:20:23,932 - > 00:20:25,502 And I guess, like, if you were coaching me through 470 00:20:25,502 - > 00:20:30,402 this to- today, would you coach me in one way versus 471 00:20:30,402 - > 00:20:32,862 the other, just kind of like s- seize opportunities 472 00:20:32,862 - > 00:20:33,802 as, as they come? 473 00:20:33,842 - > 00:20:35,972 Or do you think I should, like, methodically plan 474 00:20:36,522 - > 00:20:38,989 content that leverages some of these customer fru- 475 00:20:39,009 - > 00:20:40,099 frustrations that I find? 476 00:20:40,718 - > 00:20:43,928 So transparently, our approach was much more ad hoc, and 477 00:20:43,928 - > 00:20:46,268 I do think, again, this is a luxury of being a small 478 00:20:46,268 - > 00:20:47,888 team is you can move fast. 479 00:20:47,888 - > 00:20:52,538 Like, I had the idea for Gong Wrapped on, like, a Monday. 480 00:20:52,578 - > 00:20:54,788 Gong Wrapped was gonna drop on Wednesday. 481 00:20:55,148 - > 00:20:57,058 So like I wrote up all the copy, worked with the 482 00:20:57,058 - > 00:21:00,157 designer, had them, had them sp-spin it up, and then I 483 00:21:00,157 - > 00:21:02,547 was able to launch it on the same day as Spotify Wrapped. 484 00:21:02,747 - > 00:21:05,057 So like it was - the timing was right, seizing 485 00:21:05,057 - > 00:21:05,767 the moment was Right. 486 00:21:06,447 - > 00:21:10,027 But I will say, the area where there was intentional strategy 487 00:21:10,027 - > 00:21:14,407 is the idea to even have this kind of like content piece 488 00:21:14,847 - > 00:21:18,147 partially came out of we were gonna run a webinar directly 489 00:21:18,147 - > 00:21:22,447 comparing Sybill versus Gong, and I thought, "How could I 490 00:21:22,457 - > 00:21:25,957 stir up just some interest in this conversation?" 491 00:21:26,447 - > 00:21:28,527 And the two ideas kinda collided at the same time of 492 00:21:28,527 - > 00:21:30,877 like, "Oh, Spotify Wrapped is coming up. I could do, 493 00:21:30,937 - > 00:21:33,877 like, I - what if I, what if I did a Gong Wrapped and we 494 00:21:33,877 - > 00:21:36,687 have this webinar coming up?" And it ended up being kind 495 00:21:36,687 - > 00:21:37,867 of two layers of content. 496 00:21:37,877 - > 00:21:41,547 Like to me, like this kind of light, entertaining, a 497 00:21:41,547 - > 00:21:44,427 little bit cheeky social media content is very top of funnel, 498 00:21:44,927 - > 00:21:49,047 but it could help hopefully drive people down funnel into 499 00:21:49,067 - > 00:21:50,277 something a little bit more substan-substantial where 500 00:21:50,277 - > 00:21:54,167 they could actually analyze and compare the product. 501 00:21:54,447 - > 00:21:56,137 So I think if I were, if I were coaching someone in 502 00:21:56,137 - > 00:21:58,227 these shoes, I think, one, you, you have to take the 503 00:21:58,237 - > 00:22:00,667 benefit of you're a small company and you can move fast. 504 00:22:00,707 - > 00:22:02,607 And some of the stuff there's just, you have 505 00:22:02,607 - > 00:22:04,377 to take the opportunities as they, as they come. 506 00:22:05,637 - > 00:22:08,927 But where the strategy can come in is if you take 507 00:22:08,927 - > 00:22:11,337 those opportunities, how do you capitalize on them and 508 00:22:11,337 - > 00:22:13,877 actually turn them into - 'cause it's one thing to have 509 00:22:13,877 - > 00:22:17,187 a moment, a post that goes viral, uh, but it's another 510 00:22:17,187 - > 00:22:20,907 thing to have it live beyond the couple moments of internet 511 00:22:20,907 - > 00:22:22,647 fame and turn into pipeline 512 00:22:23,181 - > 00:22:28,501 Right, so it sounds like your strategy, which i- you 513 00:22:28,531 - > 00:22:32,486 iterated on as opportunities arose, but you would start 514 00:22:32,486 - > 00:22:35,666 with these little social posts that would go viral 515 00:22:36,106 - > 00:22:40,166 as top funnel content, and then you continued to 516 00:22:40,166 - > 00:22:43,530 use some of that other, competitive in- intelligence 517 00:22:43,530 - > 00:22:46,710 that you were gathering, coupled with just your own 518 00:22:46,730 - > 00:22:48,850 positioning to develop, like, the more bottom funnel 519 00:22:48,860 - > 00:22:49,980 content like the webinar. 520 00:22:50,020 - > 00:22:53,070 And I imagine that you have other, you know, content 521 00:22:53,130 - > 00:22:54,590 types, assets, et cetera. 522 00:22:54,850 - > 00:22:56,910 can you talk a little bit more about, like, what 523 00:22:56,920 - > 00:22:58,590 that funnel looks like? 524 00:22:58,590 - > 00:23:00,550 Like, were you very intentional with that, or 525 00:23:00,550 - > 00:23:03,144 was it you know… And, and, and w- this might 526 00:23:03,144 - > 00:23:06,224 be getting us into maybe, like, and I, I don't wanna 527 00:23:06,224 - > 00:23:09,344 get t- step away from our playbook, so this might 528 00:23:09,394 - > 00:23:10,784 take us into that next step. 529 00:23:10,834 - > 00:23:12,034 So I don't, but I don't wanna get ahead of us. 530 00:23:12,054 - > 00:23:12,774 You, you tell me 531 00:23:13,129 - > 00:23:13,569 Yeah. 532 00:23:13,678 - > 00:23:15,566 I feel fine talking to it a little bit. 533 00:23:15,566 - > 00:23:18,507 I think, at the risk of oversimplifying a funnel, 534 00:23:18,817 - > 00:23:21,687 I do think having the two sides of the top and 535 00:23:21,687 - > 00:23:23,737 the bottom of funnel, and you have to have content 536 00:23:23,737 - > 00:23:26,047 that satisfies both ends. 537 00:23:26,487 - > 00:23:30,457 And so I would say, did we set out with a Perfect. 538 00:23:30,977 - > 00:23:32,507 plan and then execute that plan? 539 00:23:33,047 - > 00:23:33,457 No. 540 00:23:33,477 - > 00:23:35,237 It was kind of more like we had an idea here, 541 00:23:35,237 - > 00:23:37,297 and then it's how do we build the other half to 542 00:23:37,297 - > 00:23:38,217 support the other half? 543 00:23:38,377 - > 00:23:40,427 So a lot of times for me, my ideas were coming with 544 00:23:40,427 - > 00:23:44,507 these top of funnel sort of ideas, and then actually Drew 545 00:23:44,507 - > 00:23:46,647 on our team had initially the idea to do a Sybill 546 00:23:46,917 - > 00:23:49,027 versus Gong webinar, and it was like, all Right 547 00:23:49,027 - > 00:23:52,627 how do we stitch these two together for kind of a, a 548 00:23:52,627 - > 00:23:56,307 moment that then ag- it would drive someone down funnel? 549 00:23:56,307 - > 00:23:58,687 The same thing happened with kind of my, my April Fool's 550 00:23:58,687 - > 00:24:02,117 play, where we were able to kind of have this moment where 551 00:24:02,567 - > 00:24:04,027 a lot of people saw my post. 552 00:24:04,577 - > 00:24:07,867 Then the next day I was able to do another post 553 00:24:07,867 - > 00:24:10,567 that went not as viral, but did really well. 554 00:24:10,677 - > 00:24:13,027 That the hook was, "I quit Gong after one day. 555 00:24:13,027 - > 00:24:13,937 I'm staying at Sybill." 556 00:24:14,167 - > 00:24:16,037 Or no, "I quit Gong before I started. I'm staying 557 00:24:16,037 - > 00:24:18,997 at Sybill." And I walked through, and like I 558 00:24:18,997 - > 00:24:20,537 said, the main reason I'm staying is the feat- we 559 00:24:20,537 - > 00:24:21,657 ship features really fast. 560 00:24:21,657 - > 00:24:23,617 Here are three features we shipped in the last 561 00:24:23,617 - > 00:24:25,077 week, not the last year. 562 00:24:25,417 - > 00:24:27,007 And so I could educate on the product. 563 00:24:28,037 - > 00:24:31,207 And then from a out, like a outbound standpoint, I 564 00:24:31,207 - > 00:24:33,877 could work with our head of s- of sales development, 565 00:24:34,227 - > 00:24:36,647 and she could look at the people who were engaging 566 00:24:36,647 - > 00:24:40,267 with that, drive engagements with them, do outreach, 567 00:24:40,287 - > 00:24:41,177 and kind of drive that. 568 00:24:41,267 - > 00:24:44,417 Again, try to convert that further into, into pipeline. 569 00:24:44,837 - > 00:24:47,589 So I think did we set out with a perfect playbook? 570 00:24:47,819 - > 00:24:48,509 Absolutely not. 571 00:24:48,919 - > 00:24:50,689 But I do think if you're, as long as you're 572 00:24:50,689 - > 00:24:52,469 thinking about those two halves, and you might be 573 00:24:52,469 - > 00:24:53,859 wired one of two ways. 574 00:24:53,859 - > 00:24:55,569 You might - There are some, some PMMs who maybe who 575 00:24:55,569 - > 00:24:57,279 are thinking like strictly very bottom of funnel. 576 00:24:57,279 - > 00:24:59,139 It's actually most of the time where my ideas come is 577 00:24:59,139 - > 00:25:00,809 like niche product content. 578 00:25:01,429 - > 00:25:03,489 Um, these were rare circumstances, I think, 579 00:25:03,529 - > 00:25:05,279 because it was just bold and no one gets to do it. 580 00:25:05,289 - > 00:25:08,329 Like, I don't know a lot of PMMs who've gotten to have 581 00:25:08,329 - > 00:25:10,359 as aggressive of competitive campaigns as I have. 582 00:25:11,319 - > 00:25:13,329 But I had the ideas there and I just then, all Right. 583 00:25:13,339 - > 00:25:15,629 how do we augment this with something substantive 584 00:25:15,819 - > 00:25:16,779 at the bottom of funnel? 585 00:25:17,429 - > 00:25:19,757 What - No matter how you're wired, having that 586 00:25:19,777 - > 00:25:20,797 other component is key. 587 00:25:20,797 - > 00:25:22,577 Like you, if you have an awesome… Say we had that 588 00:25:22,577 - > 00:25:26,437 webinar and we had no way to drive people to it, to like 589 00:25:26,447 - > 00:25:29,487 articulate that story and kind of agitate the pain and get 590 00:25:29,487 - > 00:25:31,867 them to want to learn more, we would have a unattended 591 00:25:31,877 - > 00:25:33,037 webinar with great content. 592 00:25:33,658 - > 00:25:35,288 so I, I think that would be the, that would be the 593 00:25:35,288 - > 00:25:37,208 coaching component for me is like making sure whatever 594 00:25:37,208 - > 00:25:39,568 you're doing, you need to have both of those components for 595 00:25:39,578 - > 00:25:40,678 your competitive strategy. 596 00:25:40,968 - > 00:25:42,758 Most of the time, the top of funnel one is 597 00:25:42,758 - > 00:25:43,478 the one that's missing. 598 00:25:43,478 - > 00:25:46,508 We've got battle cards, we've got landing pages. 599 00:25:46,768 - > 00:25:49,208 We don't have anything that we do publicly that kind of 600 00:25:49,208 - > 00:25:51,838 stokes the interest and the conversation to begin with. 601 00:25:52,283 - > 00:25:52,773 Yeah. 602 00:25:52,823 - > 00:25:53,933 Yeah, absolutely. 603 00:25:54,093 - > 00:25:57,233 And so if you said, so if step one, coming back to 604 00:25:57,233 - > 00:25:59,843 our, like, little playbook that I'm outlining here. 605 00:25:59,853 - > 00:26:02,353 If you said step one was that to be clear on 606 00:26:02,353 - > 00:26:05,513 your differentiation, and step two, you talked 607 00:26:05,523 - > 00:26:09,233 about agitating the, the customer's pain from using 608 00:26:09,233 - > 00:26:10,523 the competitor's product. 609 00:26:11,253 - > 00:26:14,243 And then would step three be kind of like, I guess, 610 00:26:14,243 - > 00:26:16,963 at least outlining what that funnel would look like? 611 00:26:17,488 - > 00:26:18,408 Yeah, I think so. 612 00:26:18,468 - > 00:26:20,578 I think that would be, I, I think maybe the best way 613 00:26:20,578 - > 00:26:23,758 to put it is to like, to create a full funnel cr- 614 00:26:23,858 - > 00:26:26,308 uh, competitive motion to make sure that if you're 615 00:26:26,318 - > 00:26:28,436 amplifying… I think that's, that really is that second 616 00:26:28,436 - > 00:26:31,416 step is kind of about the top of funnel and making sure you 617 00:26:31,416 - > 00:26:35,083 have somewhere to, lead all of that interest and intrigue. 618 00:26:35,083 - > 00:26:37,433 So like if at top of funnel you're amplifying the 619 00:26:37,433 - > 00:26:40,683 dissatisfaction, the bottom of funnel you're kind of, you're 620 00:26:40,683 - > 00:26:43,143 proving why you're different and you're actually showing, 621 00:26:43,483 - > 00:26:44,723 showing why you're different. 622 00:26:44,923 - > 00:26:47,183 It's, it's the, it's the receipts, if you will. 623 00:26:47,393 - > 00:26:49,153 You know, you've, you've, you've made claims. 624 00:26:49,153 - > 00:26:51,558 How do you actually like prove and make good 625 00:26:51,558 - > 00:26:52,368 on, on those claims? 626 00:26:53,366 - > 00:26:53,876 Yeah. 627 00:26:54,036 - > 00:26:56,506 I really appreciate the way that you're articulating the 628 00:26:56,506 - > 00:26:59,624 funnel as thinking about it from like a customer, like 629 00:26:59,624 - > 00:27:03,914 a customer journey but also how they are going through 630 00:27:03,914 - > 00:27:08,193 their own decision tree of, you know, the David 631 00:27:08,193 - > 00:27:10,913 versus the Goliath, the, the Sybill versus Gong. 632 00:27:11,263 - > 00:27:13,563 It's a really helpful way to think about how to build 633 00:27:13,563 - > 00:27:16,613 a funnel and, and how t- how the story unfolds. 634 00:27:17,341 - > 00:27:17,921 Yeah, it's - 635 00:27:18,005 - > 00:27:18,615 think about it 636 00:27:19,111 - > 00:27:19,781 Well, thanks. 637 00:27:19,781 - > 00:27:22,091 Honestly, it's been late adopted for me 'cause I 638 00:27:22,091 - > 00:27:24,801 really do think most product marketers, we specialize 639 00:27:25,335 - > 00:27:26,295 more toward the bottom. 640 00:27:26,405 - > 00:27:28,025 We're, we're close to the product. 641 00:27:28,435 - > 00:27:31,305 We think through, we think through all the use cases. 642 00:27:31,305 - > 00:27:35,315 We've got product explainers and Storylane, uh, interactive 643 00:27:35,315 - > 00:27:39,101 demos, like, I think for me, this is where Sybill, being a 644 00:27:39,101 - > 00:27:41,541 leaner team, where it's like we're a very small marketing 645 00:27:41,541 - > 00:27:45,091 team, it's forced me to think through that whole, that whole 646 00:27:45,342 - > 00:27:45,692 Yeah. 647 00:27:46,302 - > 00:27:46,762 Yeah. 648 00:27:46,872 - > 00:27:47,302 Okay. 649 00:27:47,472 - > 00:27:49,662 And now I wanna go back to, I had a question for you 650 00:27:49,662 - > 00:27:52,482 earlier about some comments that you made, um, and some 651 00:27:52,482 - > 00:27:55,562 of the examples that you've given on these viral posts 652 00:27:55,562 - > 00:27:56,622 that you've done, right? 653 00:27:57,024 - > 00:27:59,514 So they're quite bold. 654 00:27:59,768 - > 00:28:01,368 I've so many questions about this. 655 00:28:02,144 - > 00:28:02,994 Oh, please 656 00:28:03,305 - > 00:28:07,065 how do you do the gut check of is this too far? 657 00:28:07,409 - > 00:28:09,479 how do you know whether you're crossing the line 658 00:28:09,479 - > 00:28:10,829 of like, "No, this is bold. 659 00:28:10,829 - > 00:28:13,409 This is my conviction," versus like, "Okay, now I, now this 660 00:28:13,409 - > 00:28:14,469 is just getting offensive"? 661 00:28:14,519 - > 00:28:16,279 Not that, not that you've crossed the line. 662 00:28:16,279 - > 00:28:16,819 I think you've done 663 00:28:16,819 - > 00:28:18,959 actually a really nice… Yeah. 664 00:28:19,279 - > 00:28:21,829 Yeah, you've, yeah, but like you've done a really nice 665 00:28:21,829 - > 00:28:26,439 job of like being as bold as possible while still what I 666 00:28:26,439 - > 00:28:29,709 would say is like remaining or, or maintaining strong 667 00:28:29,729 - > 00:28:33,629 conviction in, you know, your beliefs, and of course 668 00:28:33,629 - > 00:28:35,919 it's your, your product, but like as you said, you have 669 00:28:35,919 - > 00:28:36,849 the receipts to prove it. 670 00:28:36,859 - > 00:28:39,679 So I guess like talk about how you, how you 671 00:28:39,799 - > 00:28:40,849 flirt with that line. 672 00:28:41,488 - > 00:28:43,198 Yeah, I think there's a couple considerations. 673 00:28:43,228 - > 00:28:45,918 I mean, any product marketer thinking about this, you have 674 00:28:45,918 - > 00:28:51,208 to think about just your team culture and your brand and, 675 00:28:51,208 - > 00:28:54,998 like, what is your company okay and not okay with. 676 00:28:55,398 - > 00:28:58,408 I'm fortunate enough that, like, Sybill is a very 677 00:28:58,628 - > 00:29:01,088 h- I've never been in a more high autonomy role. 678 00:29:01,158 - > 00:29:02,638 Like, I report to our CEO. 679 00:29:03,018 - > 00:29:08,728 He gives myself and Drew a ton of trust, a ton of leeway, and 680 00:29:08,728 - > 00:29:11,798 a lot of just like, "I trust your intuition." And we also 681 00:29:11,798 - > 00:29:14,248 knew we wanted to stand out to sh- we wanted to shape a 682 00:29:14,248 - > 00:29:19,708 brand that was spiky in its point of view and stood out 683 00:29:19,728 - > 00:29:22,792 and was not, I think the r- the sales tech stuff can get 684 00:29:22,802 - > 00:29:25,333 really lost in the sauce with, like, very, I don't know, 685 00:29:25,453 - > 00:29:26,393 jargony sort of language. 686 00:29:26,513 - > 00:29:28,593 So, like, there was like org-wise, okay, 687 00:29:28,593 - > 00:29:29,323 this checks out. 688 00:29:29,363 - > 00:29:31,203 Like, you, you can't just start doing this if 689 00:29:31,203 - > 00:29:33,133 it doesn't, if it's not actually, like, approved 690 00:29:33,133 - > 00:29:33,923 and part of the culture. 691 00:29:34,353 - > 00:29:37,013 But then getting down to these, like, specific tactics, 692 00:29:37,073 - > 00:29:40,603 I think there were kinda two very basic filters I, I ran. 693 00:29:41,223 - > 00:29:46,463 One, is this critique or this competitive tactic actually 694 00:29:46,473 - > 00:29:50,833 rooted in the truth about their product and our product? 695 00:29:51,553 - > 00:29:53,583 Like, I just - That was like an honest question I asked, 696 00:29:53,583 - > 00:29:55,713 like, all right, is even - Take the Gong wrapped thing. 697 00:29:55,723 - > 00:29:57,323 I looked through like, is this true? 698 00:29:57,873 - > 00:30:00,023 Like, am I, am I saying anything that is actually 699 00:30:00,033 - > 00:30:01,363 inaccurate about the product? 700 00:30:01,743 - > 00:30:04,923 And that was - I think I deemed that I wasn't, and 701 00:30:04,923 - > 00:30:07,013 the comments seemed to affirm that because there 702 00:30:07,013 - > 00:30:08,873 was - my comments were full of people being like, 703 00:30:09,243 - > 00:30:10,523 "This was dead accurate." 704 00:30:10,593 - > 00:30:12,623 Like, there was a lot of… I think someone commented 705 00:30:12,633 - > 00:30:17,513 like, "Where's the lie on, on this?" And so I think, one, 706 00:30:17,513 - > 00:30:18,423 that was like a litmus test. 707 00:30:18,453 - > 00:30:20,943 And then the second one is, I do think it still 708 00:30:20,943 - > 00:30:22,613 is possible to overdo it. 709 00:30:23,283 - > 00:30:26,162 And so We were ta- I was talking internally of like, 710 00:30:26,162 - > 00:30:29,322 "Hey, I'm, I have this idea where I'm gonna buy A Gong 711 00:30:29,322 - > 00:30:31,912 shirt, and I'm gonna announce on April Fool's Day that 712 00:30:31,912 - > 00:30:32,952 I'm switching to Gong." 713 00:30:33,462 - > 00:30:34,942 And we were just, like, deciding, like, 714 00:30:35,012 - > 00:30:35,692 should we do it? 715 00:30:36,012 - > 00:30:39,172 And we asked, like, "Well, how long ago was it the last 716 00:30:39,172 - > 00:30:41,582 time, we took, like, a big swing?" And we realized the 717 00:30:41,582 - > 00:30:44,802 gap between Gong Wrapped and April Fools was six months. 718 00:30:45,682 - > 00:30:47,402 It's like it, it was like, all right, at this 719 00:30:47,402 - > 00:30:48,602 rate, we're like, yeah 720 00:30:48,602 - > 00:30:50,922 at this rate, we were on part for two, like 721 00:30:50,992 - > 00:30:55,142 a biannual big swing. 722 00:30:55,512 - > 00:30:57,722 And I'm like, okay, this is not all the time. 723 00:30:57,772 - > 00:30:59,642 It might feel all the time, and social might make it feel 724 00:30:59,642 - > 00:31:01,972 that way just because there's no one else is - not a lot 725 00:31:01,972 - > 00:31:02,802 of people are doing this. 726 00:31:03,313 - > 00:31:05,053 but those were kinda my two litmus tests of like, 727 00:31:05,063 - > 00:31:06,123 are we doing this too much? 728 00:31:06,203 - > 00:31:08,993 Because we can't only be known as the anti-Gong. 729 00:31:09,703 - > 00:31:11,683 And then is this based in truth? 730 00:31:11,753 - > 00:31:14,863 Like, is there truth about our product that backs this up? 731 00:31:15,253 - > 00:31:15,863 Uh, because Yeah 732 00:31:15,863 - > 00:31:17,913 if I just say something that's true about the whole category 733 00:31:17,913 - > 00:31:21,013 and we're not an exception, then what are we doing here? 734 00:31:21,303 - > 00:31:23,793 Versus or if I'm making up something that is not 735 00:31:23,973 - > 00:31:26,423 actually proven true about their product, I don't 736 00:31:26,423 - > 00:31:27,983 wanna be caught saying that. 737 00:31:28,668 - > 00:31:29,438 Yeah, yeah. 738 00:31:29,498 - > 00:31:29,878 Okay. 739 00:31:30,088 - > 00:31:33,608 So helpful to have kind of the, the filter test, 740 00:31:33,638 - > 00:31:36,088 uh, before you actually go viral with something. 741 00:31:36,454 - > 00:31:39,634 now on a similar note, you are choosing to use 742 00:31:39,644 - > 00:31:43,754 your personal profile on LinkedIn to launch these. 743 00:31:43,924 - > 00:31:46,804 It's not coming from the Sybill page, which 744 00:31:46,804 - > 00:31:49,979 is, as all company pages are, a faceless page. 745 00:31:50,279 - > 00:31:52,394 It's coming from Majcak. 746 00:31:52,794 - > 00:31:56,230 So, and, and there has been even, like, debates about 747 00:31:56,230 - > 00:31:58,510 this at conferences and everything of, like, that, 748 00:31:58,510 - > 00:32:01,840 like, founder-led marketing and using the founder or 749 00:32:01,840 - > 00:32:04,580 someone else in the company to, like, you know, you know, 750 00:32:04,580 - > 00:32:08,210 help, uh, articulate point of view on social media. 751 00:32:08,230 - > 00:32:11,660 So I guess, like, talk a little bit about what that 752 00:32:11,660 - > 00:32:14,710 decision was like and, like, was that intentional, or 753 00:32:14,710 - > 00:32:17,740 did it kinda just start with you being vocal and then it 754 00:32:17,760 - > 00:32:20,870 evolved into now you have conversations with your, 755 00:32:21,190 - > 00:32:23,590 I think you said your BDR before you actually post 756 00:32:23,590 - > 00:32:26,310 something so that it can get into your funnel and, 757 00:32:26,750 - > 00:32:29,580 um, which becomes, you know, now a strategic channel. 758 00:32:29,580 - > 00:32:32,180 So I guess talk a little bit about that and, like, 759 00:32:32,180 - > 00:32:34,860 maybe some of the risks and limitations versus, 760 00:32:34,890 - > 00:32:37,190 you know, the positive outcomes for you personally. 761 00:32:37,678 - > 00:32:38,138 Yeah. 762 00:32:38,208 - > 00:32:40,988 So I didn't - I'll say out the gate, I did not set out 763 00:32:41,388 - > 00:32:46,468 for my LinkedIn to become a key channel for Sybill. 764 00:32:47,638 - > 00:32:50,598 I think it started from, just even in terms of how this 765 00:32:50,598 - > 00:32:54,874 started, is that I really like creating content about product 766 00:32:54,874 - > 00:32:57,404 marketing in a very, like, build in public sort of way. 767 00:32:57,404 - > 00:32:59,814 Like, this is what I'm working on and kind of done that in 768 00:32:59,814 - > 00:33:02,534 varying degrees depending on the org and how comfortable 769 00:33:02,534 - > 00:33:03,474 they are with me sharing. 770 00:33:04,064 - > 00:33:07,084 But this sort of started in that, like the, the Gong 771 00:33:07,084 - > 00:33:11,684 Wrapped post, for example, technically six different 772 00:33:11,784 - > 00:33:14,974 accounts in the Sybill team and org posted that, 773 00:33:15,444 - > 00:33:17,384 that wrapped carousel. 774 00:33:17,814 - > 00:33:21,944 Mine took off, and I think I have some theories on why 775 00:33:21,944 - > 00:33:24,164 some of the - Like Talia Heller actually did a write-up 776 00:33:24,164 - > 00:33:27,234 of the whole tactic, and, uh, she had a hypothesis on 777 00:33:27,234 - > 00:33:29,024 why, and I think, I think she was probably right. 778 00:33:29,404 - > 00:33:31,834 But I sort of, it was sort of part of me like 779 00:33:31,834 - > 00:33:35,804 stumbling into, oh, like there's something about when 780 00:33:35,814 - > 00:33:39,614 I attach my face to this and I actually like, in a 781 00:33:40,104 - > 00:33:42,954 very faced way to be the antithesis of like a Sybill 782 00:33:43,124 - > 00:33:46,024 page, like not faceless, but like it's me, It's Colin. 783 00:33:46,668 - > 00:33:50,228 I think that draws people's attention in a unique way. 784 00:33:51,068 - > 00:33:54,205 And I'm at a spot where I, I recognize there's 785 00:33:54,225 - > 00:33:55,205 pros and cons to it. 786 00:33:55,215 - > 00:33:58,925 So like a potential risk here is I got a, I got a 787 00:33:59,195 - > 00:34:02,836 direct outreach, uh, DM yesterday where someone, 788 00:34:03,148 - > 00:34:04,709 the, like the first thing they said was, "Hey, Mr. 789 00:34:04,709 - > 00:34:10,588 Gong Hater, H, number eight R, Gong Hater." And, and 790 00:34:10,588 - > 00:34:13,428 then literally someone else was like, "Oh Yeah like I've 791 00:34:13,428 - > 00:34:14,468 seen a lot of your content. 792 00:34:14,478 - > 00:34:17,958 The whole, quote, 'Gong fight me' thing is really working 793 00:34:17,958 - > 00:34:21,317 for you guys." These are two DMs in the last 48 hours. 794 00:34:21,917 - > 00:34:24,597 So the cons are like, am I becoming known as 795 00:34:24,597 - > 00:34:26,947 this person who's just picking a fight with Gong? 796 00:34:27,007 - > 00:34:29,587 That's a potential like risk that you take. 797 00:34:30,177 - > 00:34:32,817 The pros are though, that I think in a lot of ways 798 00:34:33,165 - > 00:34:35,535 product marketers are uniquely positioned to become the face 799 00:34:35,535 - > 00:34:37,955 of the product because they know the message better than 800 00:34:37,955 - > 00:34:40,665 anyone, and they know the product better than everyone. 801 00:34:41,505 - > 00:34:43,655 Uh, or ideally, they know what matters and how to 802 00:34:43,655 - > 00:34:45,295 communicate that product better than anyone. 803 00:34:45,835 - > 00:34:48,985 And so I think it has naturally sort of worked 804 00:34:48,985 - > 00:34:51,095 where, yes, people associate the Gong things, but I'm 805 00:34:51,095 - > 00:34:53,845 also like constantly posting product updates about Sybill. 806 00:34:54,055 - > 00:34:55,945 Like mo- if you look back, like most of it is just 807 00:34:56,245 - > 00:34:58,415 classic product marketing of like talking about the 808 00:34:58,415 - > 00:35:01,075 product and how it works and why, what our thinking was 809 00:35:01,085 - > 00:35:01,735 going into it. 810 00:35:02,589 - > 00:35:03,109 Yeah, 811 00:35:03,395 - > 00:35:05,495 Yeah, there's these moments like, yeah, they're 812 00:35:05,495 - > 00:35:07,475 the moments that get more traction and heat. 813 00:35:08,015 - > 00:35:12,775 But I, I do think that this partially worked because 814 00:35:12,775 - > 00:35:13,555 a person was tied to it. 815 00:35:13,555 - > 00:35:15,575 I don't think it has to be your product marketer. 816 00:35:15,615 - > 00:35:17,995 I think picking someone though goes a long way. 817 00:35:17,995 - > 00:35:20,285 So like a good example is, Uh. 818 00:35:20,295 - > 00:35:21,265 a company Pylon. 819 00:35:21,585 - > 00:35:23,495 They're in the customer success space. 820 00:35:23,515 - > 00:35:24,735 They're actually kind of a similar tool, 821 00:35:24,735 - > 00:35:26,075 but in that category. 822 00:35:26,465 - > 00:35:30,125 And they very vocally com- they're I think series B, 823 00:35:30,265 - > 00:35:31,605 series A, series B startup. 824 00:35:32,085 - > 00:35:35,875 They very vocally compete against Zendesk to the point 825 00:35:35,875 - > 00:35:39,835 where their CEO had the headline in, on LinkedIn 826 00:35:39,835 - > 00:35:41,475 where it said, "Building the Zendesk Killer." 827 00:35:42,251 - > 00:35:42,261 Uh. 828 00:35:42,665 - > 00:35:46,425 And I, I think that worked for them. 829 00:35:46,595 - > 00:35:49,125 I think they are another kind of example of they came along, 830 00:35:49,435 - > 00:35:52,625 they picked their Goliath, they used the luxury that 831 00:35:52,625 - > 00:35:56,245 they had of being a smaller brand and were vocal, and 832 00:35:56,245 - > 00:35:58,525 then they attached a person to it, so the CEO ended 833 00:35:58,525 - > 00:36:00,435 up being the embodiment. 834 00:36:00,435 - > 00:36:03,075 For me, it just I think worked for my personality and even 835 00:36:03,075 - > 00:36:04,135 I think product marketers 836 00:36:05,185 - > 00:36:07,345 Tangent, I think product marketers are an interesting - 837 00:36:07,585 - > 00:36:09,625 They can be a user of Sybill. 838 00:36:09,765 - > 00:36:12,905 They're not like the person we sell to, but like every 839 00:36:12,905 - > 00:36:14,565 product marketer I know who has access is like, 840 00:36:14,565 - > 00:36:17,535 "This thing is so sick." So anyway, it was a little 841 00:36:17,535 - > 00:36:19,845 bit of a, a little, to quote our friend Bob Ross, 842 00:36:19,845 - > 00:36:22,345 it was a little bit of a happy accident, uh, a happy 843 00:36:22,345 - > 00:36:25,335 little tree of an accident that I became this kind of 844 00:36:25,335 - > 00:36:26,845 face, face of the brand. 845 00:36:27,695 - > 00:36:29,245 I do think you have to have a face. 846 00:36:29,445 - > 00:36:31,555 It just, if you're gonna make bold claims to your 847 00:36:31,555 - > 00:36:33,465 competitor, it's almost like there's a certain courage 848 00:36:33,465 - > 00:36:34,525 of not being a coward. 849 00:36:34,525 - > 00:36:34,675 Like 850 00:36:34,777 - > 00:36:35,065 someone 851 00:36:35,118 - > 00:36:36,508 I completely agree. 852 00:36:36,618 - > 00:36:38,508 I was - That's exactly what I was gonna say, and I'm, 853 00:36:38,538 - > 00:36:40,858 I'm glad you mentioned that, like, having the courage to 854 00:36:40,858 - > 00:36:45,568 be bold requires a, a person's name and face behind it 855 00:36:45,955 - > 00:36:46,365 Yeah. 856 00:36:46,435 - > 00:36:49,615 And I, I think I'm okay with the risk because I stand 857 00:36:49,615 - > 00:36:51,465 by the approach I've taken. 858 00:36:51,465 - > 00:36:53,035 And there's, there's a risk that someone would say, 859 00:36:53,035 - > 00:36:54,855 "Oh, I would never hire Collin because he was way 860 00:36:54,855 - > 00:36:58,105 too aggressive with Gong." I probably wouldn't do 861 00:36:58,105 - > 00:36:59,275 this play in every company. 862 00:36:59,275 - > 00:37:01,585 You have - Again, it has to be the right, right company. 863 00:37:01,585 - > 00:37:04,685 You have to have, like, the - You have to ha-ha- be in 864 00:37:04,685 - > 00:37:06,865 that kind of, like, hierarchy where they're bigger than 865 00:37:06,865 - > 00:37:07,765 you and you're smaller. 866 00:37:07,815 - > 00:37:10,035 You have to have the, a precedent for switching. 867 00:37:10,285 - > 00:37:12,295 You know, there's, there's got to be real frustrations 868 00:37:12,295 - > 00:37:13,315 you can speak to. 869 00:37:13,875 - > 00:37:16,635 But for me, it's been, proven to be worth it 870 00:37:18,080 - > 00:37:18,570 Got it. 871 00:37:18,600 - > 00:37:19,010 Okay. 872 00:37:19,170 - > 00:37:22,850 So taking us back to our playbook, we have step 873 00:37:22,850 - > 00:37:26,540 one to make sure that you are very clear on your 874 00:37:26,540 - > 00:37:28,150 differen- differentiation. 875 00:37:28,390 - > 00:37:31,860 Step two was to lean into the customer's frustration 876 00:37:32,120 - > 00:37:33,730 with your competitor. 877 00:37:34,030 - > 00:37:37,500 Step three was to build out that full funnel kind of 878 00:37:37,540 - > 00:37:42,160 narrative and, um, maybe not necessarily all every single 879 00:37:42,160 - > 00:37:45,750 tactic because as you, um, you know, pointed out, sometimes 880 00:37:45,750 - > 00:37:47,640 it's just opportunistic and you go with it. 881 00:37:48,190 - > 00:37:50,670 And then what's kind of wrap us up here? 882 00:37:50,710 - > 00:37:52,570 Like, I feel like maybe we kind of got into it a little 883 00:37:52,570 - > 00:37:57,590 bit, um, with the using you as, you know, the, the 884 00:37:57,590 - > 00:38:00,170 person leading it on the social side, but like what - 885 00:38:00,210 - > 00:38:01,380 how do we wrap this all up? 886 00:38:01,955 - > 00:38:02,145 Yeah 887 00:38:02,145 - > 00:38:03,575 I think the simplest way to put it would be 888 00:38:03,685 - > 00:38:04,595 to put a face on it. 889 00:38:05,155 - > 00:38:06,855 Someone, someone has to own it. 890 00:38:06,925 - > 00:38:09,085 And if you're a product marketer and you're thinking 891 00:38:09,095 - > 00:38:11,315 about the distribution here, it does not have to be you. 892 00:38:11,315 - > 00:38:12,045 It can be. 893 00:38:12,365 - > 00:38:14,785 Uh, for me, it worked out for it to be, is it, if 894 00:38:15,035 - > 00:38:17,275 depending on if you have someone, say you're selling 895 00:38:17,275 - > 00:38:19,885 to salespeople, like if we had the right salesperson 896 00:38:19,895 - > 00:38:23,375 in our org, it, who wanted to be kind of this persona 897 00:38:23,575 - > 00:38:24,955 public, it could've been them. 898 00:38:25,525 - > 00:38:27,805 Or if you sell to customer success, you could have 899 00:38:27,835 - > 00:38:30,955 your CSM be this person and, you know, like you can 900 00:38:30,955 - > 00:38:32,635 find sort of that person. 901 00:38:32,635 - > 00:38:35,565 But I think someone tying their face to the 902 00:38:35,565 - > 00:38:37,705 whole thing just helps. 903 00:38:37,745 - > 00:38:39,795 It gives a credibility to the whole thing. 904 00:38:39,875 - > 00:38:43,455 And people f- now peop- uh, the kind of psychological 905 00:38:43,455 - > 00:38:47,455 element of this is people will see Gong stuff and 906 00:38:47,455 - > 00:38:48,775 they will remember their… 907 00:38:48,815 - > 00:38:51,025 They will feel a personal connection to me, and they 908 00:38:51,025 - > 00:38:55,375 will feel like a sense of discontent or frustration 909 00:38:55,375 - > 00:38:57,205 at Gong just because of me. 910 00:38:57,895 - > 00:39:00,345 And that's like, you can't do that. 911 00:39:00,355 - > 00:39:02,395 You can't tap into that if there's not a person, because 912 00:39:02,395 - > 00:39:05,745 there, people feel way more disproportionate loyalty 913 00:39:05,745 - > 00:39:06,945 to people than they do to a 914 00:39:07,044 - > 00:39:07,524 Yes. 915 00:39:08,345 - > 00:39:08,645 Uh 916 00:39:09,004 - > 00:39:10,404 I'm so glad you called that out. 917 00:39:10,404 - > 00:39:14,024 Yeah, there's so much psychological, um, b- you 918 00:39:14,024 - > 00:39:16,724 know, just facts, like coming out of it using 919 00:39:16,724 - > 00:39:17,764 a strategy like this. 920 00:39:18,243 - > 00:39:18,543 Yeah. 921 00:39:18,554 - > 00:39:19,334 I'm sorry I cut you off. 922 00:39:19,334 - > 00:39:19,794 You were gonna… 923 00:39:20,013 - > 00:39:20,563 No, Uh, 924 00:39:20,653 - > 00:39:21,483 no, that's exactly it. 925 00:39:21,493 - > 00:39:24,633 It's, it's just using… I think that psychology plays 926 00:39:24,633 - > 00:39:26,123 to plays to your benefit. 927 00:39:26,463 - > 00:39:28,333 You know, and r- again, didn't set out for it, 928 00:39:28,333 - > 00:39:30,393 kind of stumbled a lot of this by accident, but 929 00:39:30,393 - > 00:39:31,263 I would recommend it. 930 00:39:31,303 - > 00:39:32,533 It was a lot of learning as we go. 931 00:39:32,553 - > 00:39:35,783 Again, I've never ran anything this aggressive, so it was, 932 00:39:35,913 - > 00:39:37,883 I was learning it, and I'd hadn't, didn't know a lot 933 00:39:37,883 - > 00:39:40,263 of people who had ran as aggressive of campaigns. 934 00:39:40,273 - > 00:39:40,413 So it was 935 00:39:40,413 - > 00:39:40,483 a 936 00:39:40,548 - > 00:39:43,648 The other… Oh, of course, and I feel like 937 00:39:43,648 - > 00:39:45,978 with anything that's, you know, bold and new, 938 00:39:45,978 - > 00:39:47,138 there's gonna be learning. 939 00:39:47,418 - > 00:39:49,008 The other thing that I was thinking, that like, 940 00:39:49,008 - > 00:39:50,978 again, if you're coaching me through this and I'm, 941 00:39:51,388 - > 00:39:53,628 I'm trying to run this thing for the first time, 942 00:39:54,448 - > 00:39:57,188 I would f- I would want someone, whoever's 943 00:39:57,188 - > 00:40:01,038 face is behind making these big, bold… 944 00:40:01,078 - > 00:40:04,138 sharing these big, bold narratives, I would want 945 00:40:04,138 - > 00:40:07,918 it s- I would want their personality to match because 946 00:40:07,968 - > 00:40:11,628 it couldn't - Like, if someone was, um, you know, just had 947 00:40:11,628 - > 00:40:14,998 a different temperament, and just it wasn't kind of, you 948 00:40:14,998 - > 00:40:20,818 know, in their nature to, you know, make some really big, 949 00:40:20,888 - > 00:40:23,428 bold, I don't even wanna say digs, but, like, you know, 950 00:40:23,428 - > 00:40:26,608 to lean into some of those, to some of that friction that 951 00:40:26,608 - > 00:40:29,258 you might have, like with, you know, another brand. 952 00:40:29,258 - > 00:40:31,998 Some people are, feel uncomfortable being 953 00:40:31,998 - > 00:40:33,098 in that position. 954 00:40:33,108 - > 00:40:35,048 So I think, like, to, and you might have mentioned 955 00:40:35,048 - > 00:40:37,178 this already, but, or maybe you mentioned it on our prep 956 00:40:37,178 - > 00:40:43,128 call, but finding someone who the personality fit to, 957 00:40:43,198 - > 00:40:45,458 to share the bold narrative, I think is really important, 958 00:40:45,508 - > 00:40:49,438 is a really important part of success when you're pi-picking 959 00:40:49,438 - > 00:40:52,108 the person who's, who's kind of running some of these. 960 00:40:52,626 - > 00:40:52,956 Totally. 961 00:40:52,956 - > 00:40:55,466 I think for me it just sort of worked out that I like a 962 00:40:55,466 - > 00:40:59,116 little bit of conflict, and it's probably dopamine-seeking 963 00:40:59,116 - > 00:41:00,036 behavior of some sort. 964 00:41:00,036 - > 00:41:02,396 But like I was, I, I like it. 965 00:41:02,396 - > 00:41:04,226 I think the whole thing is exciting and 966 00:41:04,226 - > 00:41:04,966 fun, so it worked. 967 00:41:05,336 - > 00:41:06,956 There are other people who, like, the idea of this 968 00:41:06,976 - > 00:41:10,146 public conflict, like for example, my wife could never. 969 00:41:10,146 - > 00:41:11,816 She's not a product marketer, but this is like, would 970 00:41:11,826 - > 00:41:13,326 not be her cup of tea. 971 00:41:13,676 - > 00:41:15,476 Um, and I think just being honest about that, 972 00:41:15,476 - > 00:41:17,786 if that's not you, then you're, you shouldn't be 973 00:41:17,786 - > 00:41:18,586 the person to do this. 974 00:41:18,586 - > 00:41:21,356 But there probably is someone… If your CEO 975 00:41:21,406 - > 00:41:23,436 honestly doesn't believe in the product enough to be this 976 00:41:23,436 - > 00:41:26,666 way, it's like, well, you might have bigger problems. 977 00:41:26,716 - > 00:41:29,046 Um, or if someone at the executive level doesn't 978 00:41:29,046 - > 00:41:31,546 believe in the product enough to kind of be that way, you 979 00:41:31,546 - > 00:41:32,676 would have bigger problems. 980 00:41:33,116 - > 00:41:35,636 But someone, if it's not you, it can be someone 981 00:41:35,656 - > 00:41:37,576 who's comfortable with that, has a tolerance 982 00:41:37,586 - > 00:41:38,606 for that kind of conflict 983 00:41:39,252 - > 00:41:42,612 Yes, yes, so we need someone with really deep conviction, 984 00:41:42,822 - > 00:41:46,402 so deep that they, if they weren't originally comfortable 985 00:41:46,402 - > 00:41:47,702 with conflict, they will be. 986 00:41:48,793 - > 00:41:49,023 Yeah. 987 00:41:49,023 - > 00:41:51,573 And it's, it's so funny calling it conflict, like that 988 00:41:51,573 - > 00:41:52,843 this is the most drama thing. 989 00:41:52,843 - > 00:41:54,013 It's like, let's be real. 990 00:41:54,023 - > 00:41:56,423 We are selling software to other people who are 991 00:41:56,423 - > 00:41:59,103 selling software to other people selling software. 992 00:41:59,103 - > 00:41:59,703 It's like none of 993 00:41:59,703 - > 00:42:00,853 this is that serious. 994 00:42:01,293 - > 00:42:04,003 Um, like, I don't know. 995 00:42:04,013 - > 00:42:06,203 It's - I think I like to remind myself that 996 00:42:06,203 - > 00:42:08,583 like if I stop selling Sybill, nobody dies. 997 00:42:08,583 - > 00:42:08,963 You know? 998 00:42:08,963 - > 00:42:09,123 Like 999 00:42:09,123 - > 00:42:09,703 this is a… 1000 00:42:10,090 - > 00:42:10,920 That's why, that's why 1001 00:42:11,530 - > 00:42:13,640 I call it more like, it's more like friction 1002 00:42:13,640 - > 00:42:15,250 than conflict to me. 1003 00:42:15,260 - > 00:42:15,430 You 1004 00:42:15,430 - > 00:42:15,630 know? 1005 00:42:15,630 - > 00:42:16,130 It's like, it's a 1006 00:42:17,251 - > 00:42:17,446 Yeah, 1007 00:42:17,650 - > 00:42:19,520 bit of like, "Oh, I don't want to offend you. Your 1008 00:42:19,520 - > 00:42:20,640 product's not good." You know? 1009 00:42:20,640 - > 00:42:20,920 Like, it's 1010 00:42:21,113 - > 00:42:21,223 Yeah. 1011 00:42:22,493 - > 00:42:25,403 Which people in other, other streams do this all the time. 1012 00:42:25,723 - > 00:42:29,343 It's just like B2B, we're not used to this level of… I 1013 00:42:29,343 - > 00:42:31,433 don't know, it's like almost there was like a, there was a 1014 00:42:31,433 - > 00:42:34,063 really popular rule once upon a time of like, I still hear 1015 00:42:34,063 - > 00:42:35,853 it, it's like, "Don't talk about your competitors, it 1016 00:42:35,853 - > 00:42:37,723 just gives them attention." 1017 00:42:38,333 - > 00:42:40,813 And I could not disagree with that. 1018 00:42:40,813 - > 00:42:41,153 take 1019 00:42:41,563 - > 00:42:43,203 more, particularly in our position. 1020 00:42:43,233 - > 00:42:46,343 I think, again, flip it, Gong should not give any 1021 00:42:46,343 - > 00:42:47,683 of their public time to us. 1022 00:42:48,533 - > 00:42:50,003 They shouldn't, 'cause they have the upper hand. 1023 00:42:50,263 - > 00:42:52,193 When you have the - when you do not have the upper hand, 1024 00:42:52,973 - > 00:42:55,153 it would be, it'd be amiss to not take that opportunity 1025 00:42:55,954 - > 00:42:56,314 Yeah. 1026 00:42:56,504 - > 00:42:56,954 Yep. 1027 00:42:57,234 - > 00:42:57,774 Totally agree. 1028 00:42:57,804 - > 00:43:00,234 Okay, last question for you on this topic, Collin. 1029 00:43:00,554 - > 00:43:03,914 Um, what's one piece of advice that you would want, 1030 00:43:04,164 - > 00:43:07,884 uh, PMMs to walk away with who are trying to go bold 1031 00:43:07,894 - > 00:43:11,794 with a competitive, um, you know, a, a strategy like this? 1032 00:43:13,235 - > 00:43:16,635 my advice would probably be to push, push the boundaries. 1033 00:43:17,005 - > 00:43:18,415 I mean, even kind of as we were hinting at 1034 00:43:18,415 - > 00:43:22,645 before, the boundaries are so tame actually. 1035 00:43:22,655 - > 00:43:24,345 Like when you think about what, what people are 1036 00:43:24,345 - > 00:43:26,235 typ- often doing in this space and the stuff that 1037 00:43:26,235 - > 00:43:29,315 causes, like stirs up gossip or controversy, 1038 00:43:29,485 - > 00:43:30,675 con- controversy in B2B. 1039 00:43:31,397 - > 00:43:33,127 I would say one, pushing that limit. 1040 00:43:33,287 - > 00:43:36,417 And then I think second is to take the opportunity 1041 00:43:36,417 - > 00:43:37,757 that you uniquely have. 1042 00:43:37,797 - > 00:43:39,717 like if you are in this spot, you have a unique 1043 00:43:39,717 - > 00:43:43,117 opportunity your competitor does not, and I would highly 1044 00:43:43,117 - > 00:43:44,267 recommend you, you take it. 1045 00:43:44,587 - > 00:43:45,097 It's - this? 1046 00:43:45,097 - > 00:43:47,957 is, it's, it's a str- it's not just a, uh, it's not 1047 00:43:47,957 - > 00:43:49,747 just being aggressive for aggressive sake, it's a 1048 00:43:49,757 - > 00:43:53,857 strategy play, an advantage that you have that they do not 1049 00:43:53,857 - > 00:43:57,657 have that I think is really valuable to that opportunity 1050 00:43:58,265 - > 00:43:58,755 Absolutely. 1051 00:43:58,785 - > 00:44:02,535 Yeah, why wouldn't you wanna run every opportunity you can 1052 00:44:02,725 - > 00:44:04,685 to try to get ahead, you know? 1053 00:44:04,795 - > 00:44:07,245 Why would not, um, you know, obviously not in ways 1054 00:44:07,245 - > 00:44:08,109 that are ethical and good, 1055 00:44:08,271 - > 00:44:08,601 Yeah. 1056 00:44:08,661 - > 00:44:10,711 Maybe in three words, maybe in three words the 1057 00:44:10,711 - > 00:44:11,941 advice is just go for it. 1058 00:44:12,821 - > 00:44:13,001 Go 1059 00:44:13,001 - > 00:44:13,261 for it. 1060 00:44:13,391 - > 00:44:13,941 Like, like 1061 00:44:13,941 - > 00:44:15,481 actually go for it. 1062 00:44:15,491 - > 00:44:17,661 Like do the competitive campaign, do the idea, 1063 00:44:17,671 - > 00:44:18,871 the unhinged idea that. 1064 00:44:18,871 - > 00:44:21,031 started in Slack, which is how some 1065 00:44:21,033 - > 00:44:21,403 Yeah. 1066 00:44:22,291 - > 00:44:23,011 Like actually 1067 00:44:23,181 - > 00:44:23,371 do 1068 00:44:23,373 - > 00:44:23,773 good. 1069 00:44:24,523 - > 00:44:25,343 So good. 1070 00:44:25,443 - > 00:44:27,633 Um, well, thank you so much. 1071 00:44:27,633 - > 00:44:29,263 This was such a good case study. 1072 00:44:29,353 - > 00:44:31,913 Um, I'm really eager to hear how people, how 1073 00:44:31,913 - > 00:44:33,843 some of the listeners put it into practice. 1074 00:44:34,153 - > 00:44:36,783 So if any listeners out there are, um, executing 1075 00:44:36,783 - > 00:44:38,532 on something similar, come back, tell us how it went. 1076 00:44:38,799 - > 00:44:40,429 Yes, please message me if you do 1077 00:44:41,373 - > 00:44:41,793 All right. 1078 00:44:41,803 - > 00:44:44,073 Okay, so now it's time for the next segment of the show. 1079 00:44:44,133 - > 00:44:45,543 This is the messaging critique. 1080 00:44:46,213 - > 00:44:49,013 So this is where we as product marketing experts get to 1081 00:44:49,013 - > 00:44:50,913 analyze real world messaging. 1082 00:44:50,963 - > 00:44:53,533 Um, and the fun part is, Collin, as the guest on my 1083 00:44:53,533 - > 00:44:56,133 show, you get to pick the company or campaign that 1084 00:44:56,133 - > 00:44:57,673 we are looking at today. 1085 00:44:58,023 - > 00:44:59,953 Very quickly, I'm gonna outline… Yeah, very 1086 00:44:59,953 - > 00:45:01,963 quickly, I'm gonna outline some, uh, ground rules. 1087 00:45:01,983 - > 00:45:03,893 So first, we're gonna pick a company where you 1088 00:45:03,933 - > 00:45:06,513 understand the target audience really well. 1089 00:45:06,543 - > 00:45:09,723 Wouldn't be fair for me to analyze messaging on a 1090 00:45:09,723 - > 00:45:11,663 company that I know nothing about, and I don't know who 1091 00:45:11,673 - > 00:45:12,903 their target audience is. 1092 00:45:12,923 - > 00:45:14,843 So who am I to say whether or not their messaging 1093 00:45:14,843 - > 00:45:15,633 is effective or not? 1094 00:45:16,003 - > 00:45:18,473 Um, and then we're gonna talk about what the me- what's 1095 00:45:18,473 - > 00:45:21,013 working really well, what's not working at all, and, 1096 00:45:21,603 - > 00:45:23,193 uh, how you'd iterate on it. 1097 00:45:23,203 - > 00:45:25,663 What advice do you have to the PMM out there to 1098 00:45:25,703 - > 00:45:27,403 take it to the next level? 1099 00:45:28,163 - > 00:45:31,438 So without further ado, yeah, please reveal the 1100 00:45:31,671 - > 00:45:32,271 All right. 1101 00:45:33,241 - > 00:45:36,161 So I've already talked about them on this call, but I am 1102 00:45:36,161 - > 00:45:37,561 going to talk about Zendesk. 1103 00:45:37,781 - > 00:45:40,131 So if you don't know Zendesk, Zendesk is in the 1104 00:45:40,151 - > 00:45:41,821 customer support space. 1105 00:45:41,831 - > 00:45:44,351 They have a, have a platform where you can take in 1106 00:45:44,351 - > 00:45:46,801 customer support tickets, resolve those tickets, and 1107 00:45:46,811 - > 00:45:49,571 they ran a campaign, I think this was like two or three 1108 00:45:49,571 - > 00:45:53,011 weeks ago, where this was, this was their headline: 1109 00:45:53,571 - > 00:45:54,941 "Want to talk to a human? 1110 00:45:55,441 - > 00:45:56,251 Call your mom. 1111 00:45:56,911 - > 00:46:01,911 Self-improving AI agents are here." That was the, 1112 00:46:02,099 - > 00:46:03,246 Womp, womp, 1113 00:46:03,469 - > 00:46:04,439 Womp, Like, no. 1114 00:46:05,421 - > 00:46:08,111 so they, yeah, the call - We'll call it from henceforth 1115 00:46:08,121 - > 00:46:09,831 the Call Your Mom campaign. 1116 00:46:10,551 - > 00:46:14,101 And so that, that's the campaign, and it 1117 00:46:14,101 - > 00:46:18,061 was trying to support their AI agent's launch 1118 00:46:18,638 - > 00:46:20,938 Um, I have my thoughts. 1119 00:46:23,278 - > 00:46:24,348 What are yours? 1120 00:46:24,842 - > 00:46:25,182 Okay 1121 00:46:25,402 - > 00:46:26,322 I'll start with the positive. 1122 00:46:26,362 - > 00:46:28,492 I wanna follow the rules of what I, what I loved 1123 00:46:28,492 - > 00:46:32,392 might be strong, but the positive is the, there's 1124 00:46:32,392 - > 00:46:34,892 a very clear establishing of the alternative. 1125 00:46:35,042 - > 00:46:38,732 Like they are saying there are, there's human customer 1126 00:46:38,732 - > 00:46:41,092 support and there are agents. 1127 00:46:41,302 - > 00:46:43,212 Like these are the two options, and they are 1128 00:46:43,212 - > 00:46:47,162 making a case that these self-improving AI agents 1129 00:46:47,182 - > 00:46:48,442 are the better option. 1130 00:46:48,442 - > 00:46:51,082 And I do think like some - there's a lot of product 1131 00:46:51,082 - > 00:46:52,362 marketing that doesn't, or a lot of marketing out 1132 00:46:52,392 - > 00:46:54,382 there that doesn't even name the alternative. 1133 00:46:54,412 - > 00:46:59,042 And I think even to, for them, the competition in, is the 1134 00:46:59,042 - > 00:47:01,232 alternative in some strange ways or to like, probably 1135 00:47:01,232 - > 00:47:02,992 more the old way of doing it. 1136 00:47:02,992 - > 00:47:03,752 That's, the positive. 1137 00:47:03,772 - > 00:47:04,232 They've, they've 1138 00:47:04,242 - > 00:47:06,232 established the, the alternative 1139 00:47:06,670 - > 00:47:08,100 that's actually a really good point. 1140 00:47:08,190 - > 00:47:10,820 I, I, I didn't think about that the first time 1141 00:47:10,820 - > 00:47:12,960 that I looked at this, and I think you're right. 1142 00:47:12,970 - > 00:47:14,760 And okay, all right. 1143 00:47:14,880 - > 00:47:15,310 I'm 1144 00:47:15,924 - > 00:47:18,654 it's easier to roast than it is to compliment, so I, 1145 00:47:18,714 - > 00:47:21,464 I have my feelings on what needs, what, where we need 1146 00:47:22,438 - > 00:47:22,988 You're right. 1147 00:47:22,998 - > 00:47:24,048 That's totally fair. 1148 00:47:24,048 - > 00:47:26,863 I, I l- I appreciate that, that line of thinking. 1149 00:47:27,113 - > 00:47:29,293 Okay, so that's what's working well. 1150 00:47:29,903 - > 00:47:32,153 What is not working well here? 1151 00:47:32,477 - > 00:47:34,847 So I think there were a couple areas where this misfired. 1152 00:47:34,877 - > 00:47:37,387 Uh, the first one is just customer sentiment. 1153 00:47:37,577 - > 00:47:39,287 I think the risk they make here? 1154 00:47:39,717 - > 00:47:43,147 is trivializing or minimizing their customer. 1155 00:47:43,147 - > 00:47:47,097 So their customer is CS people, the people that you 1156 00:47:47,097 - > 00:47:49,007 would talk to if you had a problem with a product. 1157 00:47:49,667 - > 00:47:53,107 And there's kind of this like trivializing and almost 1158 00:47:53,107 - > 00:47:57,875 mocking of that person, that I think is a miss. 1159 00:47:58,245 - > 00:48:00,175 Uh, not intended, but I think is a 1160 00:48:00,291 - > 00:48:02,311 Yeah, I was gonna say I don't think it was intended, but 1161 00:48:02,325 - > 00:48:06,195 Now, the second layer I think is an end user sentiment. 1162 00:48:06,205 - > 00:48:10,715 I think most people actually still want to talk to humans. 1163 00:48:10,785 - > 00:48:12,425 Like a lot of people like talking to humans 1164 00:48:12,425 - > 00:48:13,285 when they have a problem. 1165 00:48:13,745 - > 00:48:19,416 And so I don't think the right angle is, mocking that desire. 1166 00:48:19,416 - > 00:48:21,506 That is like that's what the market wants, whether 1167 00:48:21,506 - > 00:48:24,386 you like it, Zendesk, like that's what a lot of people 1168 00:48:24,386 - > 00:48:25,956 actually still do prefer. 1169 00:48:26,486 - > 00:48:28,826 And so mocking it's probably not the answer. 1170 00:48:29,196 - > 00:48:32,166 Um, and then I think the third one is probably the, 1171 00:48:32,396 - > 00:48:33,986 maybe the one of the bigger issues is just like the 1172 00:48:33,986 - > 00:48:38,306 sensitivity and, and timing of this, is that this campaign 1173 00:48:38,306 - > 00:48:40,516 launched like two or three weeks before Mother's Day. 1174 00:48:41,746 - > 00:48:44,966 And I think even like some of the best brands, like 1175 00:48:44,966 - > 00:48:47,606 Kroger did this recently, where like Kroger sent an 1176 00:48:47,606 - > 00:48:51,666 email where that w- a couple weeks ago that said, "Hey, 1177 00:48:51,716 - > 00:48:54,446 would you like to opt out of Mother's Day communications?" 1178 00:48:54,636 - > 00:48:56,366 And they basically said, "Mother's Day is 1179 00:48:56,366 - > 00:48:57,356 hard for some of us. 1180 00:48:57,366 - > 00:49:01,846 Do you wanna opt out?" And I think they're… It, 1181 00:49:01,866 - > 00:49:03,446 the same problem would've existed if they said, "Call 1182 00:49:03,446 - > 00:49:07,116 your dad." But like I do think people, people have 1183 00:49:07,116 - > 00:49:08,956 complicated relationships with their parents, people 1184 00:49:08,956 - > 00:49:11,646 have complicated relationships to Mother's Day, and they 1185 00:49:11,646 - > 00:49:14,156 stacked those two and managed to hit both of them at the 1186 00:49:14,156 - > 00:49:18,146 same time, which to me feels just like miss, miss, miss 1187 00:49:18,286 - > 00:49:19,816 a-across, across the board. 1188 00:49:21,298 - > 00:49:22,948 Yeah, I totally agree. 1189 00:49:22,998 - > 00:49:27,248 And just to - I think the, the part that probably, and, 1190 00:49:27,248 - > 00:49:30,888 and I might be speaking to this from my own sensitivity. 1191 00:49:30,928 - > 00:49:32,618 I - my mom passed away not 1192 00:49:33,048 - > 00:49:34,048 too long ago, 1193 00:49:34,098 - > 00:49:36,778 so I, I can't… Thank you. 1194 00:49:36,788 - > 00:49:38,348 Yeah, I can't call my mom. 1195 00:49:38,488 - > 00:49:40,908 And, and which, which takes me, uh, completely away 1196 00:49:40,908 - > 00:49:44,148 from whatever message they were trying to communicate. 1197 00:49:44,978 - > 00:49:49,078 And that's, um, if I'm - look, I found the, um, after we, you 1198 00:49:49,078 - > 00:49:52,728 know, were chatting about this earlier, I found the - one of 1199 00:49:52,738 - > 00:49:55,748 the, and also if it's still around, I'll put it in the, 1200 00:49:55,828 - > 00:49:58,358 in the, um, in the show notes. 1201 00:49:58,388 - > 00:50:02,228 But I found - it looks like maybe Zendesk has 1202 00:50:02,238 - > 00:50:05,368 removed the post, but someone screenshotted it. 1203 00:50:05,838 - > 00:50:07,548 So, but I fe- I s- 1204 00:50:07,562 - > 00:50:07,992 post 1205 00:50:08,898 - > 00:50:11,288 yeah, but I ha- so I've, I've got the screenshot, so 1206 00:50:11,308 - > 00:50:12,018 it'll be in the show notes. 1207 00:50:12,088 - > 00:50:15,148 But, um, that's exactly what other people had commented 1208 00:50:15,148 - > 00:50:18,238 on, that like, you know, as you pointed out, some people 1209 00:50:18,238 - > 00:50:21,168 have complicated, you know, associations with Mother's 1210 00:50:21,168 - > 00:50:25,378 Day, and it's just really - uh yeah, it's just - it 1211 00:50:25,448 - > 00:50:30,368 almost, it feels like either someone was, um, you know, 1212 00:50:30,368 - > 00:50:32,208 who was ever putting this campaign together, they 1213 00:50:32,208 - > 00:50:35,058 were trying to go really bold with the naming the 1214 00:50:35,058 - > 00:50:39,485 alternative as, as you were pointing out, but maybe didn't 1215 00:50:39,525 - > 00:50:41,075 have some of those filters 1216 00:50:41,775 - > 00:50:44,275 that you talked about in your own, you know, 1217 00:50:44,285 - > 00:50:45,995 playbook of, of going bold. 1218 00:50:46,701 - > 00:50:49,241 so what advice or how, you know, if you were 1219 00:50:49,241 - > 00:50:51,941 kind of coaching the PMMs here, like how would 1220 00:50:51,960 - > 00:50:52,570 Yeah. 1221 00:50:53,331 - > 00:50:55,561 how would you help them - how would you help redirect, 1222 00:50:55,561 - > 00:50:56,595 I guess, kind of the, the 1223 00:50:56,696 - > 00:50:57,205 Yeah. 1224 00:50:57,281 - > 00:50:57,771 they had? 1225 00:50:58,406 - > 00:51:01,716 I, I think if I were trying to do the same launch 1226 00:51:01,736 - > 00:51:04,304 and I wanted to keep the alternative, I think I 1227 00:51:04,304 - > 00:51:06,274 would try to keep that clear alternative, but I would 1228 00:51:06,314 - > 00:51:09,094 totally change the tone and message and do some like 1229 00:51:09,114 - > 00:51:10,564 playful self-deprecation. 1230 00:51:10,634 - > 00:51:12,864 So probably the way I would do it is something 1231 00:51:12,864 - > 00:51:14,614 like, "Hey, this is Susan. 1232 00:51:15,054 - > 00:51:17,474 Everyone - Uh, she runs your customer success team. 1233 00:51:17,904 - > 00:51:20,584 Everyone loves Susan, but Susan can't be 1234 00:51:20,584 - > 00:51:21,594 everywhere at once. 1235 00:51:21,774 - > 00:51:25,024 So when there isn't Susan, there are a self-improving AI 1236 00:51:25,054 - > 00:51:28,474 agents to handle your, all of your customers' needs." That's 1237 00:51:28,474 - > 00:51:29,564 the angle that I would take. 1238 00:51:29,564 - > 00:51:31,934 Like, I would actually flip it and say, like lean 1239 00:51:31,934 - > 00:51:34,914 into the fact that people like talking to humans and 1240 00:51:34,914 - > 00:51:37,324 you just name the obvious limitation that's there. 1241 00:51:37,794 - > 00:51:40,754 You've not attacked - I would leave the mothers out of this 1242 00:51:41,702 - > 00:51:41,974 Yeah. 1243 00:51:42,244 - > 00:51:44,834 one, that's a good rule of thumb in general of marketing 1244 00:51:45,044 - > 00:51:47,464 unless you're - Yeah, is don't, don't, don't bring 1245 00:51:47,464 - > 00:51:48,344 people's moms into it. 1246 00:51:48,974 - > 00:51:51,714 And I think I would, I would change the whole tone 1247 00:51:51,724 - > 00:51:55,134 where it's still like it could be charming and still 1248 00:51:55,134 - > 00:51:58,514 name that alternative, and even elevate your customers 1249 00:51:58,514 - > 00:52:00,554 'cause they're like, "Oh yeah, I see myself in Susan." 1250 00:52:00,634 - > 00:52:03,204 Like I've - like I - for us, our Susan is Sarah. 1251 00:52:03,254 - > 00:52:04,754 Our customers freaking love Sarah. 1252 00:52:05,394 - > 00:52:06,064 Uh, like 1253 00:52:06,899 - > 00:52:07,088 Right 1254 00:52:07,424 - > 00:52:09,364 I'm not trying - I, I think Zendesk could come 1255 00:52:09,364 - > 00:52:11,404 along and say, "We're not trying to change that," but 1256 00:52:11,833 - > 00:52:12,173 Totally 1257 00:52:12,654 - > 00:52:13,314 Susan's one person. 1258 00:52:14,484 - > 00:52:15,794 When Susan's not available, you have these 1259 00:52:15,794 - > 00:52:17,934 AI agents who can it 1260 00:52:18,669 - > 00:52:21,379 You know what I really love about that idea, and 1261 00:52:21,379 - > 00:52:25,149 I hope Zendesk hears this episode and takes this idea 1262 00:52:25,149 - > 00:52:26,369 and then pays us for it. 1263 00:52:26,479 - > 00:52:26,669 But 1264 00:52:26,992 - > 00:52:27,262 All right. 1265 00:52:27,999 - > 00:52:29,509 I … Right? 1266 00:52:29,579 - > 00:52:29,909 Yeah. 1267 00:52:29,909 - > 00:52:32,019 I need, I need a little, little extra side stuff. 1268 00:52:32,019 - > 00:52:36,069 So what they should do to just to, like, take, iterate 1269 00:52:36,069 - > 00:52:38,279 on your idea even further, is to pick real customers 1270 00:52:38,299 - > 00:52:42,619 that they have who are, like, really incredible at 1271 00:52:42,619 - > 00:52:45,679 their jobs, and then, like, do full-on profiles, like, 1272 00:52:45,699 - > 00:52:48,679 about them featuring why they're so good at their job. 1273 00:52:48,689 - > 00:52:50,809 You could have, like, feedback or quotes from some 1274 00:52:50,809 - > 00:52:52,319 of their own peers. 1275 00:52:52,319 - > 00:52:53,089 You know what I mean? 1276 00:52:53,279 - > 00:52:55,009 So it's just like a love shower 1277 00:52:55,479 - > 00:52:55,759 on 1278 00:52:55,778 - > 00:52:58,748 feature like 10 different customer 1279 00:52:58,748 - > 00:53:02,958 success people at zendesk.com, zendesk.com/henry, 1280 00:53:03,821 - > 00:53:04,381 Yeah. 1281 00:53:04,571 - > 00:53:05,151 Yes. 1282 00:53:05,631 - > 00:53:06,511 Yes. 1283 00:53:07,141 - > 00:53:08,181 Yes, yes. 1284 00:53:08,181 - > 00:53:10,411 And it could even be like, "We're not kidding, like Susan 1285 00:53:10,421 - > 00:53:13,671 really is a bad A." Like look at, like, and you could like 1286 00:53:13,671 - > 00:53:16,741 get like, I mean, of course approved from the customer 1287 00:53:16,741 - > 00:53:19,461 and the customer's company, but like you could like show 1288 00:53:19,461 - > 00:53:22,511 how, "Oh yeah, she's gotten 10 promotions in, you know, the 1289 00:53:22,521 - > 00:53:23,771 last 10 years of her career. 1290 00:53:23,771 - > 00:53:26,111 She's gotten this, this, and that, and this award and 1291 00:53:26,111 - > 00:53:28,571 this achievement," and the, you know, the, the proof 1292 00:53:28,591 - > 00:53:30,451 behind why she's so amazing. 1293 00:53:30,941 - > 00:53:34,111 Um, that way it becomes - That way, now you have 1294 00:53:34,111 - > 00:53:36,801 something that like your customers want to share. 1295 00:53:37,471 - > 00:53:40,091 So it'll help your campaign about your 1296 00:53:40,091 - > 00:53:41,551 self-improving AI agents. 1297 00:53:41,881 - > 00:53:43,921 Not ne- I mean, I don't know if it'd go viral, but it would 1298 00:53:43,921 - > 00:53:46,231 certainly be something that would leave your customers 1299 00:53:46,241 - > 00:53:49,251 feeling, as you said, a stronger attachment to. 1300 00:53:49,641 - > 00:53:52,861 And if we use more of your playbook from earlier, you 1301 00:53:52,861 - > 00:53:55,241 talked about putting a face behind some of these bold 1302 00:53:55,241 - > 00:53:57,691 claims that you're making, and then people then build up 1303 00:53:57,691 - > 00:53:59,321 these loyalties to the person. 1304 00:54:00,101 - > 00:54:01,621 And so it's obviously a bit different because 1305 00:54:01,621 - > 00:54:04,741 we're not using one person, we're using lots of people 1306 00:54:05,091 - > 00:54:06,981 that are, uh, that's a bit more personalized, 1307 00:54:07,001 - > 00:54:09,751 but then like their, their audiences are gonna be 1308 00:54:09,751 - > 00:54:11,101 more loyal to that person 1309 00:54:11,590 - > 00:54:12,370 Oh, 100%. 1310 00:54:12,871 - > 00:54:13,337 you know, 1311 00:54:13,570 - > 00:54:15,440 Well, I can picture the comments section too, like 1312 00:54:15,610 - > 00:54:17,390 yeah, when they launch it and like everyone from 1313 00:54:17,390 - > 00:54:19,725 that company is like, "Oh, Suzy, we love her." 1314 00:54:19,967 - > 00:54:21,077 Yes, exactly. 1315 00:54:21,557 - > 00:54:22,897 I'm not surprised at all. 1316 00:54:22,897 - > 00:54:23,927 She's amazing. 1317 00:54:23,937 - > 00:54:24,280 Yeah, 1318 00:54:24,460 - > 00:54:25,010 Yeah. 1319 00:54:26,380 - > 00:54:27,050 All right, Zendesk, 1320 00:54:27,137 - > 00:54:27,387 Yeah. 1321 00:54:27,480 - > 00:54:28,080 your move. 1322 00:54:28,857 - > 00:54:29,777 Yeah, I know. 1323 00:54:29,777 - > 00:54:30,907 Yeah, exactly. 1324 00:54:30,957 - > 00:54:32,477 Uh, my Venmo is like 1325 00:54:34,852 - > 00:54:35,316 Uh 1326 00:54:35,527 - > 00:54:36,307 just kidding. 1327 00:54:36,317 - > 00:54:36,867 Just kidding. 1328 00:54:36,867 - > 00:54:40,067 Okay, seriously though, um, Zendesk, we have some really 1329 00:54:40,067 - > 00:54:42,827 good ideas for you, so please let us know what you think. 1330 00:54:43,476 - > 00:54:45,476 Yeah, I would love it if, if Zendesk PMM… 1331 00:54:45,836 - > 00:54:48,116 Sorry for the harsh words earlier, if you hear this. 1332 00:54:48,729 - > 00:54:49,049 I know. 1333 00:54:49,049 - > 00:54:53,659 You guys, you guys had your own backlash I, I think from 1334 00:54:53,719 - > 00:54:55,229 the, the comment section. 1335 00:54:55,319 - > 00:54:56,899 Well, I, I think it was well-intended. 1336 00:54:56,899 - > 00:55:00,003 I don't think the, intention was to be, you know, 1337 00:55:00,189 - > 00:55:01,869 No, I think that, I mean, again, to like the 1338 00:55:01,889 - > 00:55:04,579 what was good about it is the copy was clear. 1339 00:55:04,739 - > 00:55:08,119 It was lo- like self-improving AI agents 1340 00:55:08,129 - > 00:55:10,439 is understandable enough, at least in my opinion. 1341 00:55:10,639 - > 00:55:12,899 And then like they had very like colloquial copy. 1342 00:55:12,899 - > 00:55:13,839 They were trying to be bold. 1343 00:55:13,849 - > 00:55:14,769 Like I get all that. 1344 00:55:15,310 - > 00:55:15,810 Totally. 1345 00:55:15,900 - > 00:55:16,400 Yeah. 1346 00:55:16,880 - > 00:55:17,890 Um, it's okay. 1347 00:55:17,940 - > 00:55:19,940 There's opportunity to correct, and we just gave 1348 00:55:19,940 - > 00:55:22,450 you a really golden idea, so I hope you go with 1349 00:55:22,450 - > 00:55:23,830 it and pay us for it. 1350 00:55:24,910 - > 00:55:26,450 Um, all right. 1351 00:55:26,450 - > 00:55:28,600 So Collin, one thing that I like to make, um, space 1352 00:55:28,600 - > 00:55:31,630 for on this podcast is a moment of gratitude because 1353 00:55:31,920 - > 00:55:33,930 as product marketers, we never get to where we 1354 00:55:33,950 - > 00:55:34,800 are in our careers alone. 1355 00:55:34,810 - > 00:55:37,410 We're always learning and growing and building off of 1356 00:55:37,410 - > 00:55:39,730 one another, and frankly, we're all better for it. 1357 00:55:39,810 - > 00:55:42,310 Um, so before we wrap up, I just want to say a genuine 1358 00:55:42,420 - > 00:55:44,810 thank you for coming on the show and sharing your 1359 00:55:44,810 - > 00:55:47,550 insights and all the effort and work that you put into 1360 00:55:48,320 - > 00:55:49,480 prepping for this episode. 1361 00:55:49,700 - > 00:55:51,320 Um, I really appreciate it, 1362 00:55:51,370 - > 00:55:53,790 and so does the PMM community, so yeah. 1363 00:55:54,210 - > 00:55:54,490 Thank you. 1364 00:55:54,633 - > 00:55:54,893 fun 1365 00:55:55,870 - > 00:55:58,980 Yeah, and in turn, I would love to hear some shout-outs 1366 00:55:58,990 - > 00:56:01,930 from your perspective of some amazing PMMs who 1367 00:56:02,230 - > 00:56:05,640 have shaped the awesome PMM that you are today. 1368 00:56:05,640 - > 00:56:07,440 So let's hear it. 1369 00:56:07,450 - > 00:56:08,980 Who are, who are the shout-outs going to? 1370 00:56:09,505 - > 00:56:10,515 Okay, a couple stand out. 1371 00:56:10,875 - > 00:56:15,135 One is the godfather of PMM, Jason Oakley. 1372 00:56:15,685 - > 00:56:20,335 Uh, Jason has, from like my most baby days as a PMM, 1373 00:56:20,365 - > 00:56:24,235 just been very consistently supportive and available 1374 00:56:24,725 - > 00:56:27,885 and extended resources over and over again. 1375 00:56:27,885 - > 00:56:29,545 So Jason, you're the man. 1376 00:56:29,575 - > 00:56:30,115 Thank you. 1377 00:56:30,385 - > 00:56:32,445 He actually helped me get this job at Civil even. 1378 00:56:32,525 - > 00:56:33,315 So like there's just - 1379 00:56:34,025 - > 00:56:35,375 Someone reached out to him saying, "Hey, 1380 00:56:35,375 - > 00:56:36,905 we're looking for a h- a 1381 00:56:36,905 - > 00:56:38,735 PMM," and Jason referred me. 1382 00:56:38,735 - > 00:56:40,713 So I literally would not be here if it were not for Jason. 1383 00:56:40,970 - > 00:56:41,868 Oh, so good 1384 00:56:42,095 - > 00:56:44,615 And then another one that stands out is Julien Sauvage. 1385 00:56:44,655 - > 00:56:46,675 Uh, he's CMO at Cordial now, but came out through 1386 00:56:46,675 - > 00:56:47,375 product marketing. 1387 00:56:47,385 - > 00:56:52,655 Again, someone who's just been very, uh, available, just like 1388 00:56:52,655 - > 00:56:55,205 been, been someone I could call and ask questions about 1389 00:56:55,205 - > 00:56:58,515 my career and process stuff with and just is a really good 1390 00:56:58,515 - > 00:56:58,875 dude. 1391 00:56:59,475 - > 00:57:02,415 And then, a - Tamara Grzyminski is in 1392 00:57:02,415 - > 00:57:03,325 that lineup too. 1393 00:57:03,325 - > 00:57:04,275 Shout out to Tamara. 1394 00:57:04,405 - > 00:57:08,195 And then my friend Eric Holland, who I, I te- 1395 00:57:08,245 - > 00:57:10,405 Eric Holland of We're Not Marketers fame. 1396 00:57:10,995 - > 00:57:13,545 I text - He and I text like almost daily. 1397 00:57:13,925 - > 00:57:17,385 So we've just become real, like real supports. 1398 00:57:17,395 - > 00:57:19,665 Like he's given me a lot of courage to be very bold. 1399 00:57:19,665 - > 00:57:22,945 I bounced the, the whole April Fools D- April Fool's Day 1400 00:57:22,945 - > 00:57:24,405 idea, I bounced off of Eric. 1401 00:57:24,795 - > 00:57:27,115 So, um, shout out to Eric too 1402 00:57:27,990 - > 00:57:29,160 Oh, I love that. 1403 00:57:29,160 - > 00:57:33,570 You've got a team of like mentors and peers who are, 1404 00:57:33,580 - > 00:57:35,870 who have not only shaped who you are, but are continue 1405 00:57:35,870 - > 00:57:38,700 to shape who you are and where you're going as a PMM, 1406 00:57:38,710 - > 00:57:40,900 so, so grateful for that. 1407 00:57:41,030 - > 00:57:42,240 They are good people too, by the way. 1408 00:57:42,280 - > 00:57:44,030 All of them, by the way, have gotten shout-outs 1409 00:57:44,030 - > 00:57:44,714 on the show before. 1410 00:57:44,940 - > 00:57:45,790 So if that do- 1411 00:57:46,350 - > 00:57:50,990 if that… No, no, but like, if that doesn't tell you how 1412 00:57:50,990 - > 00:57:52,480 awesome they are, I love it. 1413 00:57:53,110 - > 00:57:54,230 Um, all right. 1414 00:57:54,240 - > 00:57:55,950 Seriously, though, thank you, Collin, so much. 1415 00:57:55,950 - > 00:57:57,395 This was such a great conversation. 1416 00:57:57,619 - > 00:57:58,559 Thanks, Al. Appreciate it 1417 00:57:59,160 - > 00:58:02,280 Yeah, and hey, PMM listeners, if you like this episode, 1418 00:58:02,300 - > 00:58:04,820 please share it with a PMM friend, and I'd be so grateful 1419 00:58:04,830 - > 00:58:05,700 if you would leave a review. 1420 00:58:05,720 - > 00:58:07,560 It helps tremendously with our reach. 1421 00:58:07,780 - > 00:58:08,960 Thank you so much for coming on this 1422 00:58:08,960 - > 00:58:09,990 adventure with us today. 1423 00:58:10,030 - > 00:58:12,400 I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to 1424 00:58:12,400 - > 00:58:14,880 take in the next step of your own journey.