How Courageous Marketing Leadership Builds Bold Brands with Udi Ledergor, Chief Evangelist at Gong - Ep 75

TT - 075 - Udi Ledergor === Udi Ledergor: Here I am to spill the beans on how Gong has been doing this so effectively that I'm honestly shocked that more companies are not doing this Udi Ledergor: We're sometimes over reliant on all this automation crap. we like that it saves our team work, but we don't realize what we're giving up in return. Udi Ledergor: There's two ways you can use AI. One way is to automate something away so you can take the human out of it.

The other one is to augment the human being so that they're working together. Udi Ledergor: Always focus on the attendees experience, the other person's experience. Udi Ledergor: What would they want to do to make this easier and frictionless, even if that means creating more work for your team? Udi Ledergor: The only purpose of the subject line is to get people to open the email.

Now that sounds so obvious, but if you look at your inbox right now, you'll see that 99 out of a hundred emails don't follow that rule. Udi Ledergor: Acting swiftly and decisively was the right way to go, and it, and it quickly, extinguished the flames that could have gotten much bigger in this case. Udi Ledergor: The worst thing that can happen to you is not that some people hate what you're doing. The worst thing that can happen to you is indifference.

Craig Rosenberg: I'm so grateful that the LinkedIn photo controversy was left out of, uh, the original recording here, so I'm in good Matt Amundson: no, we're bringing it back now. Craig Rosenberg: UDI, what are your thoughts on my LinkedIn photo again? What, Udi Ledergor: It, it looked like it was taken while. Dropping in an elevator or a high speed train, I'm not sure.

Sam Guertin: And of a different Udi Ledergor: Let, let's call it dynamic. Craig Rosenberg: let me, let me just explain one thing to everyone in the audience. One is I don't take very good pictures. Udi Ledergor: it's on brand.

That's perfectly on brand. Then. Craig Rosenberg: Yes, that well said. What's crazy is I had to change, desperately, tried to change pictures 'cause the original one that was up there was more professional, but it looked like someone had like used a air pump and pumped me.

Craig Rosenberg: I mean, I was like 25 pounds, way heavier. And so I had to take that off. And then I went with another photo that everyone hated. Literally there was like complaints in the office about it.

And so I changed to this one and this one has not gone well. Like I'm, Matt and I were just doing a call and this person's from LinkedIn, Ruby from LinkedIn gets on and says, I have an agenda item I'd like to talk you about. Craig Rosenberg: At the end of the call, she brings up the LinkedIn photo. I Udi Ledergor: Well, I, I'll, I'll tell you, as, as a marketer, Craig, can I, can I just give you my professional opinion and that is that you are winning Matt Amundson: yeah, the engagement Udi Ledergor: and I'll tell you why.

I'll tell you why, because. The worst thing that can happen to you is not that some people hate what you're doing. The worst thing that can happen to you is indifference, and you are getting anything but that. Udi Ledergor: Some people love it.

Some People. hate it, but everyone's talking about it. So you are winning, my friend. Craig Rosenberg: oh my Matt Amundson: Streets are talking.

Streets are talking. Craig Rosenberg: street, the streets is talking. ​ Introducing Udi Ledergor, Chief Evangelist at Gong - Craig Rosenberg: All right, so here's what we got today. Uh.

Uh, I can't believe we had, this is, it's taken us this long to have UDI on because he's been mentioned. So, UDI, you've been mentioned like multiple times on the show. Um, Udi Ledergor: Hopefully some of them in good context. Matt Amundson: I, all of them Craig Rosenberg: Well, Matt always used you guys as an example of how you used the content that was driven from your own product to, to drive a narrative That right now the, the, the brand around Gong is extraordinary.

Craig Rosenberg: And so, um, and we were just remembering the days in the early days where you guys were taking like it was, or lab, you, everyone, you guys were taking like real phone. Infor, you know, information from conversations and turning it into interesting content when nobody was talking about it. It was like, uh, man. Craig Rosenberg: So yeah.

So no, we brought you up multiple times. This is also a test to see if you actually listen to the show on a regular basis. So now we know the truth there. Uh, I'm just kidding.

That's totally fine. The, um, so, so yeah, for the audience, like, um, I'm actually normally we lead up to the end. I'm just gonna say we have Udi Letterer from. Craig Rosenberg: Uh, famous to us for like one of the best.

Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, but yeah. But like for Matt and I, on a personal level, the, the sort of SaaS, um, AI branding exercise is like.

A model. And so that's why we keep me. So, um, we we're really excited to, to have Udi on the show and, and talk about these things and, um, kind of what we can all learn from it as an audience on what we could do. Craig Rosenberg: Um, with what he's learned.

So this show is, we are very excited, UDI, to have you on for, for literally like you are, you are an example to us on, on what you should be doing when you're building a company. So thanks Craig Rosenberg: for coming on. folks. The excitement is mutual Craig Rosenberg: We, uh, we don't believe you, but we appreciate the kind words.

Um, yeah. So, um, Matt Amundson: gracefully. Craig Rosenberg: so yeah. So we have, whoa, I just flipped my screen.

Just flipped in, uh, upside down. You guys didn't Udi Ledergor: Interesting. Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know. Udi Ledergor: On. Craig Rosenberg: photo.

Yeah, I know. We might as well make that my profile photo. Okay. 3 Critical Marketing Lessons Learned from Sending an Email Campaign that Almost Ruined a Massive B2B SaaS Brand - Craig Rosenberg: So there's two parts of the show.

Craig Rosenberg: So part number one, um, is, uh, really, you know, uh, we have a lot of fun with, we just asked the, uh, the guest to tell us a Go-To-Market story. Could be, you know, funny, could be harrowing, could be, you know, uh, heroic, what whatever you, you know, we just love hearing stories and you probably have a million of 'em from Craig Rosenberg: building. Gong. Um, and then the second part is the, the basis of the show is to learn from people like you on what strategies, tactics, et cetera, work in today's really dynamic market.

And that's just giving it a really nice sort of, um, high level term. I mean, it's crazy. And so we'd like to just, we just have two. Craig Rosenberg: Bullet points and then we talk.

So, um, the, the first one we'll start with is, UDI, if you have a story for us, we'll just sit back and enjoy it. Udi Ledergor: Um, yeah, I don't, I dunno if you'll enjoy it. Um, we'll, we'll go with the harrowing, if that's okay with you. Matt Amundson: Yeah, I like it.

Craig Rosenberg: if it's harrowing. I think we, well, let's see. Let's, you know what? We'll, we will be the judge.

Udi Ledergor: that that word confused me for years. 'cause I, I kept expecting something about heroes, but it, it's actually very saddening. So, um, yeah, here we go. So, so this story took place a few years ago, um, actually during the height of the pandemic and the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, um, after the murder of George Floyd in 2020.

Um. It was another day in the office at Gong, a rather remote office at Gong, and we, we were told by G2 that we need to collect more reviews before they do their, like quarterly tally. And that, uh, some of the other players were accumulating more reviews that quarter and that we should send out another one of those review collection campaigns for those who've never done it typically looks like this. Udi Ledergor: We send out an email, uh, to.

People that we suspect are happy users of our product, and we say, Hey, Matt, hey Craig. Um, thanks for your high NPS scores. Um, it's thanks to raving fans like you that, that we grow and succeed. Uh, we'd love for you to write your honest opinion, uh, and this link and fill out a G2 review.

Udi Ledergor: And to thank you for your time, here's a, a Starbucks gift card to get yourself a cup of coffee or something like that. And so. Matt Amundson: so Udi Ledergor: We were about to send out the email when one of the customer marketers on my team had an idea and she said, you know, we, we like to do good and we like to make this world a little bit of a better place with everything going on now, what if we switch things up a little bit? Udi Ledergor: And instead of offering folks a random gift card for Amazon or Starbucks, uh, we tell them that we'll donate in their name to a Black Lives Matter.

Uh, Uh, nonprofits. So there, there were few of them, uh, out there doing great work to, uh, forward the causes of Black Lives Matter. And the, the idea seemed reasonable and I said, yeah, why, why wouldn't people like this? Udi Ledergor: Right?

Uh, they don't have to do anything except spend 30 seconds writing a review that they probably do anyway, and we get to donate on their behalf. And, uh, we set aside several thousands of dollars to donate, um, to Black Lives Matter causes. and so we send out the email, literally the same email we've used multiple times before. Udi Ledergor: Very successfully.

We knew it should drive a few hundred reviews. Uh, we just switched out the gift card offer with, we'll donate in your name for a Black Lives Matter nonprofit within like 40 minutes of sending that email. I got a dozen livid emails in my inbox. Uh, the first ones came directly from the recipients of the email who said something along the lines of, this is the most offensive thing I've ever seen.

Udi Ledergor: I can't believe Gong is doing this. Uh, one of them said, I hope my black sales leader didn't receive this email, or We probably won't be doing business with you. Uh, the next emails came in from board members who had heard about it. Already within an hour from our customers who were threatening to stop doing business with us.

Udi Ledergor: Uh, my CEO forwarded one of them from another board member with similar tone. So it was clear that we had messed up. It was clear that we had messed up and I had to act fast and decide do I kind of let this. Die out and hope that most people, as with in the case of most emails, don't even open the email and don't see what we send out or, or do I take action and, and risk increasing the visibility of the email, uh, but try and make right.

Udi Ledergor: And I very quickly decided that the latter would be. the right approach. That is take action, take full ownership, and see what I can do to make it better. And the premise was, I told you I got about a dozen emails and my thinking was for every one of those dozen, there's probably 10 or 20 more who feel the same way as the folks who took the time and energy to write me back.

Udi Ledergor: But those other folks, they either didn't have the words or they didn't have the time, or they just didn't care enough to write me what they felt about the campaign. And so I thought if that's the case, there's, I've probably pissed off dozens, if not hundreds of people at this point because the email went out to, I think, like 6,000 people asking for reviews, so not a small group. Udi Ledergor: And, and I thought if I got a dozen, they're probably representing like a hundred or more.

And so very quickly, um, we turned around another email that went out to the same 6,000 people. Um, but if the first one was, I think from a generic email address signed by the Gong Marketing team, the second one came from udi's inbox at my gong email and was signed with my name and full email. And I, I just said, folks, we, we messed up. I messed up.

I said, I, messed up. I, I sent you an email a couple of hours ago. Um. It was not worded in the way that we wanted to and we clearly shouldn't have connected the reviews that we'd love for you to write with donating for an important cause.

And I'm sorry that went out. Udi Ledergor: It should not have gone out. Um, here's what we're doing instead, we're immediately donating the entire budget that we allocated of so and so thousands of dollars to these two Black Lives Matter organizations. We hope you can forgive us for this messing up.

Um, I'll make sure it never happens again. And if you have any other feedback or want to chat, here's my email and just feel free to reach out. And I sent that email out and very quickly I got, I think the number was like 60 something, emails back. So like my e my inbox was completely flooded.

In this case, all the emails were positive. Matt Amundson: all Udi Ledergor: So a few of them were from the same people who originally sent the complaints this time saying, thank you for taking ownership and making this right. Udi Ledergor: A lot of the. others were kind of one of two options.

Half of them said, you know, I didn't. I didn't even feel that anything was so wrong with the original email you sent, but thank you for noticing and, and sending out this apology. Um, this is what we expect from Gong and from you. And the other part of the email is confirmed.

What I felt about the original responses where they said, you know, I read your original email. Something about it felt off, but I couldn't find the words. To tell you what was wrong with it. So thank you for doing this and making it right.

We, we appreciate Gong and we'll go write that review that you asked for. And so that's, that's how that ended, uh, almost as abruptly as it started within a few hours, uh, including the, the few customers who threatened to stop doing business with us, retracting that and saying that they accept the apology. But the, the lessons from that were. A couple maybe.

Maybe. Here's the top three. Number one was, you know, gong is known for being cheeky and edgy and inserting humor into things. None of that was intended in this case.

I was not trying to be humorous or make lighthearted about Black Lives Matter matter or anything going on at the time, but if anything, this taught us that. There are issues where we have to be extra careful about, and when there's global and social issues with this type of rawness and sensitivities, we have to tread very, very carefully and should have added more layers of approving this campaign in the first place, which I approved. Udi Ledergor: So, so I took full responsibility for, um, you know, it was a very good team member who had a reasonable idea that I approved, I probably should have checked with a couple more people to make sure, or, or even just given more thought myself, um, which I didn't do.

Uh, so that was one lesson. The second lesson was that my, my hunch about more people being impacted by the campaign and feeling bad about it than the ones who actually wrote about it was absolutely true, as evidenced by the, uh, large number of people who wrote back after the apology email. That's, I think, a generic lesson to remember, like if you get a handful of complaints about something, they're probably representing a much larger group that just doesn't care enough to write you or don't have the time, or don't have the words, but you should not assume that you just pissed off three people.

Udi Ledergor: If you get three responses, you probably pissed off 30 or 300. They, they just didn't write you so. Respond as if 300 people were pissed off. And then the third lesson was acting quickly and assertively and proactively and not hoping that this will die over.

And, uh, waiting days to see, well, maybe we can just ignore this, or let's have committees and meetings next week to decide what to do. Udi Ledergor: That would would've been the wrong approach and would've escalated everything and it would've exploded and people would've started sharing it on social media and god knows where else this would've gone. So. Acting swiftly and decisively was the right way to go, and it, and it quickly, um, sort of extinguished the flames that that could have gotten much bigger in this case.

Udi Ledergor: So I promised you a harrowing tale. I I, think I delivered that. Craig Rosenberg: God. What the, whew.

That was, uh, gripping. Yeah. So I'm going to, let's, let's go through ratings story. Gripping incredible.

Matt Amundson: Script, movie script Craig Rosenberg: I didn't, I didn't interrupt Craig Rosenberg: once. Matt Amundson: Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: I didn't multitask. Like, I was like, wow.

Uh, harrowing. Yes. I mean. Wow, that was incredible and was it.

Matt Amundson: was Craig Rosenberg: were real. Matt Amundson: no, no, no. I imagine, yeah, you probably didn't sleep well that night. Craig Rosenberg: But you know, I, How Gong Intentionally Built an Authentic, Sincere, & Human Brand for A B2B SaaS Startup - Craig Rosenberg: I, I would say like part of it too where when you said No, look, I decided to decisively send the email from me.

That's, that is Gong. Like in many ways that was incredibly on brand to, uh, because part of the ch cheeky, uh, sort of fun content thing also makes you guys highly personable and Craig Rosenberg: like, Craig Rosenberg: uh, and so, uh, you coming in with the way you did from your email almost immediately, uh, that seemed completely on brand. Udi Ledergor: Yes, you, you're right, Craig, part of what we do is always authentic and sincere. And, uh, we, we've codified some of that in Gong's leadership principles, one of which is simply called no royalty, which means being in a leadership position doesn't give us a lot of perks.

It gives us extra responsibility. Udi Ledergor: That means that I don't get to push anyone else under the bus when something like this happens. I have to step up and offer my head if needed. Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Yeah, it's one of the things that I've always really admired about the Gong brand is very human. It is very human. You know, like Craig and I talk a lot about like, great marketing that we see from other SaaS companies. It's, in a lot of cases, it's very hard to associate that with a person unless we know the person directly.

Matt Amundson: Right. Like, you know, we, we, you know, I worked at Marketo, so we know people like Maria Pergolino, we know Jon Miller very well. Um, one of the things that I thought was so incredible about Gong, uh, during the, like, sort of the, the, the scale up stage of Gong, was that like, it was like. This information is coming out.

Matt Amundson: It's really, really impactful stuff. It was like, you know, like the four things that if you say on a phone call, like you'll, you know, lose a deal or replace these four things with this to improve your win rate by 70%, and because it often came from Chris. It was like just a sales leader telling a sales, you know, other sales leaders like, Hey, like nudge, nudge. Matt Amundson: Here's some really good advice.

That's totally driven by data, right? Like, I'm sure you've been thinking this. Let me confirm that with some really good data. And I think that that's one of the things that when I think about Gong as a brand is like always so exceptional is like, it just felt like people helping people.

Matt Amundson: Right. Like, Hey, I just, I know this thing and I think you know it too, but let me just confirm it for you for forever because you've got a CRO to talk to, or you have customers to talk to. You have a board that you're responsible to like, let me give you the data that you need to just absolutely crush. Matt Amundson: And that's, that's part of why I think the brand worked so well.

And part of why copycat brand that's like, Hey, we're just gonna come out with all these really great reports that are all about. You know, that, that are based on data that we have exclusively don't hit the same way. Uh, it feels like sort of like that last kind of sprinkle of magic dust was the, the was was how personal the brand always felt to me. Udi Ledergor: And you, you're absolutely right, Matt.

And that, that was very intentional. 'cause when we sat down, uh, a very small team was me and Amit, my CEO and co-founder, uh, Orlob was involved in some of this. In the early days, we, we sat with an agency who kind of facilitated an exercise to determine what our brand personality is. Udi Ledergor: And one of the things that I think came out of that workshop that remains with us to this day, which makes us very unique, is, is, is this.

You think about every startup in every field, you ask them like, what do you want to be known for? And they'll all tell you in some version or another, we want to be known as the authority and thought leader in our space. Udi Ledergor: Right? Who doesn't want to.

Now we also wanted to be trusted as a thought leader in our space, but here's what we did differently. We married that quality with another quality. While most companies confuse being thought leaders and just an authority in their space with being boring and stuffy and condescending, we decided to marry that trustworthy. Udi Ledergor: Thought leader with just being a relaxed, friendly guy who wants to help you out.

That was a very intentional decision that we made. Like we wanna be, we wanna unbutton that shirt collar and the tie and let our hair down and not be the obnoxious guy at a bar. When you go to a party and someone's just talking about themselves and you're looking for an escape route, we don't want to be that guy or that brand. Udi Ledergor: We wanna be the guy that asks you how your day was and finds your story fascinating and communicates in a friendly way that you wanna stay and have another drink with them.

And I think that's what we. Attempted to create and, and in most parts we did. Matt Amundson: Yeah, I would agree. Craig Rosenberg: That was cool.

What a great start to the show. All right. So, um, we can piggyback that 'cause there was a lot of really good lessons there for everyone. But, um, so next, Reimagining B2B Marketing Events To Optimize for Guest Experience - Craig Rosenberg: like give us, you know, your sort of one to three best practices, strategies, et cetera, that you feel like should be employed today to be successful from the Go-To-Market side.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, and, uh, well. We're just, I'm not gonna say anymore. I'm really looking go. Udi Ledergor: Okay, so let me, let me start with, one that kind of piggybacks on the last piece of conversation that we had on, on the friendly tone.

And then the second one, uh, I promised will be about AI because we have to, right? So, uh, so let's start with one that's not ai. It's actually so old school and that's why it works. So here it is.

Um. You know, you know how most event invites look like in, in B2B marketing. You get this really well designed email with headshots of speakers and panels and everything, and then click here to save your spot. And then you get this long form asking you everything about your contact details and your, I don't know, shoe size and dietary preferences.

Udi Ledergor: And I, I just wanted to sign up for the event, get the recording. Like, I don't need all this crap. And, and that, of course, as we'll tell you any event manager results in pretty low engagement and registration for most events, right? Very few events actually sell out and wish they, they have fewer attendees.

Udi Ledergor: So when we were, uh, about to start promoting one of Gong's Celebrate events, we thought, well, what, what if we looked at that invitation process and kind of re-engineered it to see what we, what could we do to make it super easy for folks to sign up because they, they wanna sign up, but they just don't want to go through all that clicking and landing pages and forms. Udi Ledergor: We thought, well, okay, what, what do we do when we wanna invite our family over for Sunday brunch?

Do we send them a landing page with a form to fill out? I, I dunno about you, but I, I don't, I don't, um, we just say, Hey folks, I, we'll send a group. Chat message or something saying, folks, uh, 11:00 AM brunch our place, who's in? Udi Ledergor: And then they'll either give you a thumbs up or say Yes and they're in right.

It, it could be that simple. It could be that simple. So we said, okay, how do we replicate that in a B2B context? And so here's what we did.

We compiled a list of emails already in our system of everyone who attended last year's Celebrate event. And then we said, okay, we're gonna send them out a plain text, email, no HTML, no graphics, no headshots, no panels, no logos, nothing in there. It came out from Danny. Danny was, was the event manager at Gong at the time.

Danny Hutto, great guy. And so it came from Danny a, a real name, a real person, and the plain text email just said something like this. Udi Ledergor: Hey, Matt. Um.

We're stoked that you came last year to celebrate. We wanted you to be one of the first to know that the new Celebrate event is coming up in three months. The website isn't, isn't, isn't even up yet. But if you reply to this email, yes, I will get you signed up and send you all the info when it's ready.

That was it. So instead of asking you to click through somewhere and fill out a form and wait for pages to load, we just ask you to reply. Yes. Simply reply.

Yes. The first test that we send that email out to a couple of thousand folks, we got 700 yeses on that day. So we had 700 people signed up for the event before we even put up a website because we made it easy for them. Udi Ledergor: And, and that's what I meant by just going old school, like, how would you invite your family and friends to brunch think that way, and you'll get more people engaged because you have to make it easy on them.

So that's, that's one fun story that I think just has lessons for all of us, uh, one of them in this case being like, always focus on the attendees experience, the other person's experience. Udi Ledergor: What would they want to do to make this easier and frictionless, even if that means creating more work for your team? 'cause poor Danny had to sit for hours updating his spreadsheets on the back end because those darn people didn't fill out any neat forms that went into your Marketo forms and filled out the CRM.

Udi Ledergor: None of that happened automatically. Danny had to do that. Himself, but was that worth a day of his work to get 700 attendees? You bet it was.

Matt Amundson: mm-hmm. Udi Ledergor: So that's that's a fun story and that, and it's got nothing to do with AI and I, and I think we're, we're sometimes over reliant on all this automation crap. And we like that. Udi Ledergor: It saves our team work, but we, don't realize what we're giving up in return.

We're giving up attendees and engagement and downloads and all that stuff. Craig Rosenberg: Okay. That was a great tidbit and story. Uh, Matt does send his family landing pages for when he's organizing dinners, just as a heads Craig Rosenberg: up, only Udi Ledergor: I am not coming to your next brunch.

Matt Amundson: only 'cause they're all boomers and they, they won't know how to fill it out. Craig Rosenberg: Opt-ins, it's, you know, would you be open to receiving e content from Matt over time as well? Udi Ledergor: Absolutely. I, I, I bet he puts his family on a nurture track after they sign up for the first brunch.

Craig Rosenberg: but I just love, just love the idea of like, uh, um, you know, what, what is the attendee or the prospect or the customer, what experience do they want? I just, you know, we just did a session with, um, Brent Adamson. We've had him on the show, a couple. I don't know if you've read his new book, but you know, that's.

Craig Rosenberg: You know, it, that's his thing is like, you know, can we, can we switch? We gotta switch seats here. And we gotta figure out like, you know, what's, what, what they want to be doing and what's best for them. And uh, and just something as simple as that is great.

By the way, I will mention, this is not a, but like topo, uh, the va, we. Craig Rosenberg: We did it a little different, which was, there was craig.ai. So basically we sent every email invite from me and we just said, Hey, let me know.

And we had to, they had to pay to go. So we'd say I could just, I could have Sam who, or not Sam, sorry. Sam, um, I forget Mark, you know, just. I'll introduce you to Mark, but it was Mark.

Craig Rosenberg: I didn't send any of those emails and so people would just write back, yes, I'm in. And he'd be like, great, you want to just jump on a call? You can gimme your credit card. I'll do it.

So like literally we probably got 50 regs out of the 1800. Everything else was effectuated by Mark and it was easier, uh, for them, um, that way. Craig Rosenberg: And it was great. The funny thing was I would go to the.

Summit, the TOPO summit, and people like, dude, thanks for reaching out on the event. I'd be like, great, yes, I'm looking at their name tag to figure out who it was. Um, but yeah, Udi Ledergor: That was my AI clone. I'm Craig, not ai.

Craig Rosenberg: same idea. All right, keep going. That was great. Ai Takeaway - Udi Ledergor: Okay, here's a, here's a cool AI one that I completely stole from my friend Kyle Lacey over at Docebo.

Um, and I, I just love it so I keep repeating it because I, I think more people should be using it and it, it kind of flips the idea of using AI on its head instead of Craig Rosenberg: Instead of Udi Ledergor: directly asking a high AI to help us. Udi Ledergor: It's actually a good way of getting AI out of our way. And I'll explain. So let's say we're sitting, um, in a creative meeting trying to come up with the next idea for.

Our Super Bowl commercial. Okay, take this, whatever you want. Um, so what some people might think they could do now is let's open ChatGPT and ask it. Udi Ledergor: Uh, say this is our product, this is our market.

Um, give us 10 ideas for a creative brief for our Super Bowl commercial. Right? And then they're like, great, we have all these great ideas. Let's go rank them and pick one and go do them.

Well, Kyle has a much better idea. He starts with that same way we get in the room. Udi Ledergor: We open ChatGPT, give us 10 creative ideas for our Super Bowl commercials. And now we table all those 10 ideas and never look at them again.

That is correct use of AI because those 10 ideas are the most obvious, regurgitated, overdone ideas in the world because that's how LLMs are designed. They read all this content that they were trained on, and they repeat with the highest likelihood, the most regurgitated, overdone ideas. Udi Ledergor: That's what it's feeding you. So if you're using AI in any form of way for that sort of creative work, you're doing it wrong.

You are not developing a unique fresh point of view. You're just repeating what everyone is already doing, otherwise known as best practices, which in reality of course, are boring practices because by the time anything becomes a best practice. Udi Ledergor: Everyone is doing it. So it's gonna be boring and stale, and you're never gonna get something extraordinary outta it.

So I love that idea of, let's use AI almost like a jiujitsu move. We'll take what it's good at and then use it against itself by tabling those ideas. So now we know what not to do. 'cause these are the most obvious and let's go develop our own.

Udi Ledergor: But by now, our creative juices are flowing 'cause we just saw 10 ideas, which is way easier to use as a starting point than a blank slate. Craig Rosenberg: AI with a twist. My man. What do you think of that one, Matt Amundson: I think it's, I think it's so smart, right?

Like if you're, I mean, honestly, if, if you're doing that. Craig Rosenberg: I A a thousand other people are also doing that, right? So you might as well just, you know, cease with the obvious answers, right? Like we all know as marketers, the more obvious you are, the less engaged and interested people are gonna be.

Matt Amundson: People love stuff that comes outta left field. So, uh, I think that that is one of the smartest little hacks that I've heard, uh, for using an LLM in a long time. Udi Ledergor: I'll credit to Kyle. Lacey here.

I, I bet he stole it as well, but it's just so good. I have to share it. Craig Rosenberg: Uh, we'll take, I mean, with proper attribution, UDI, Udi Ledergor: Yes, yes, yes. Still like an artist.

Craig Rosenberg: him a Yeah, yeah, yeah. The um. Okay, I'm gonna try to give you my take here really quick. It might get confusing.

Matt and I were on an earlier call with someone. I kept confusing everyone on the call. I dunno if you noticed that Matt. Craig Rosenberg: She kept having to say, so do I have to, oh, whatever Sam.

No, I'm just kidding. Uh, so there's this thing though, which is. That's not an argument to not use AI because, you know, look, I'm back on the speaking circuit and 40% of the audience are the same guys that complained about the original sales tech movement, and I'm telling you, and they're like, well, like, you know, what about the human element? Craig Rosenberg: And I'm like, yeah, the human element, uh, can be faster and even better using ai.

Not to replace your thoughts, but to enable your thoughts and like. I, I don't know when that was one of the things I thought of when you were talking, you weren't saying. Don't use ai. You're saying here's the best way to use Craig Rosenberg: it.

Craig Rosenberg: Because, you know, it's like I, I'm just sitting there on the show, I'm like, well, you know what, man? Like, honestly like we don't have time for this. Like, people are here, like, don't use it. It's fine.

Like, you, you won't win, but like, you know, don't use it. Or I tell people, you know what you could do? Here's, here's my tip. Craig Rosenberg: Go try to take.

The AI away from your employees and see how they react. Because you know, at the end of the day, by the way, like I used to tell people that during in sales tech too, like, it's like, well you can, you think all you want about ROI, but like, why don't you ask the sales leader if you took away gong? Craig Rosenberg: They'd say, I've over my dead body. Right.

Udi Ledergor: Right. Craig Rosenberg: Because they're using it, Udi Ledergor: you, Marker - Udi Ledergor: you're making an important distinction, Craig, that um. I I, I'd like to use just some words to label it, which is there, there's two ways you can use ai. One way is to automate something away so you can take the human out of it.

The other one is to augment the human being so that they're working together. Now, there are valid use cases for automating things mm-hmm. things that you do not need the human at all, updating your CRM. Thank God we don't need humans to do that anymore.

AI can fully automate that and we all get that time back. There are things like coming up with a creative idea for your next Super Bowl commercial where the best use of AI is to augment human intelligence and not replace it to make sure that you're getting the best that you can produce there. Udi Ledergor: And there's, there's gonna be many such cases. So yes, it's saying, and of course there's gonna be tasks where, where you don't want to use ai, right?

If you wanna come and console someone after a great loss, you don't wanna send them an AI generated message. You actually wanna come and be your, your unpolished human self and do that. Udi Ledergor: So you, you need to understand which situations are best for automating a away with ai. Which ones are best for augmenting human intelligence with ai and which ones you probably shouldn't be using AI at all.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, true that. Matt Amundson: yes. Craig Rosenberg: All right, what else you got for us? Matt Amundson: Oh geez.

Matt Amundson: I just, what else you got for us, UDI? Craig Rosenberg: dude? Okay. All right.

All right. But here's the thing, those were two really good, like usable ideas, Matt Amundson: I agree. uh, I I, Craig Rosenberg: it's just the way I said it, Udi Ledergor: it's okay. I, I, look, I always say my husband is thrilled anytime I get the opportunity to lecture anywhere outside our home, so thank you on his behalf.

Um. Here's another fun one, um, to maybe address the gated Matt Amundson: versus Matt Amundson: gated. Udi Ledergor: content debate, which seems to be persisting after all these years. Um, so there were years that everyone was, uh, um, uh, writing obituaries for gated content and then for un gated content.

And of course, um, the, the truth is way more nuanced than that, so. With your permission, I'll just walk you through the tactics of how I, think about it in a very popular context of, let's say. I know my audience is somewhere on social media, let's say LinkedIn, where we all live this in this day and age, and I want to turn as many of them as I can into known leads on my website. Udi Ledergor: So how do I go about that?

Do I use gated content? Do I use ungated content? How do I even get them from LinkedIn to my website? Um, here I am to spill the beans on how Gong has been doing this for quite a few years now.

So effectively that I'm honestly shocked that more companies are. not doing this. Um, here's what we do. So let's say we publish a new article.

like the Chris Orla style articles that you mentioned of, uh, why swearing on sales calls will result in an 8% higher win rate. That's a real stat and that's a real article. Udi Ledergor: So. Craig Rosenberg: God, by the way, for that one.

Udi Ledergor: Right, and that's. Craig Rosenberg: that? Yeah. Damn.

Let's go Udi Ledergor: So here's how we do it. Um, the first thing we do, I want to go to where the party is at and the party is at LinkedIn. That is where my audience is at, right? Um, I can't cram them all to my website magically.

So I go to where they're at, which is LinkedIn, and I publish the article as a public article ungated, because that's The only way you can publish an article on LinkedIn. Udi Ledergor: There is no option to G it, right? So I'll publish, let's say, under my name in this case now. Great.

I, I get, uh, gong's profiles to, uh, amplify the message. I get all of our gongs to, I activate all of the gongs so that they also share the message. So now hundreds of people are sharing this and thousands of people are viewing it, but all of them are anonymous readers, right? Udi Ledergor: They're on LinkedIn.

I don't know who they are, but I know that they're reading my article. Um, now, yes, there are some scraping tools to see like who liked it, but let, let, let's put those aside. Let's, let's try to keep this clean. So here's, here's what we do to convert a lot of those into known leads that I can actually continue emailing and selling to and call 'em if I want.

Udi Ledergor: So here's what I do. Let's say I'm, um, I'm writing this article about why swearing on sales calls work, and you should do it too. So I publish that on LinkedIn and then halfway in the article, halfway down in the article, and again, at the end, I'll put a call to action which offers you a premium piece of content. Udi Ledergor: On the exact same topic, knowing that you're interested in this topic right now and you are already getting value from my public domain article.

So if you're reading that article about swearing on sales calls, I might say, Hey, if you're enjoying this read, download this cheat sheet of the top 20 swear words you should use on your next sales call. Udi Ledergor: Now, if you're halfway reading this article, you are very enthusiastic about using swear words on your sales calls. There's a very good chance you're gonna click that link to download the cheat sheet of the 20 top swear words you should be using. What that does?

it takes you to a landing page on Gong's website where we now ask you just for your email, not for your shoe size, not for your phone number, not for your social security, just your email to download that cheat sheet. Udi Ledergor: And you know what? We see conversion rates of 70 to 80% on those landing pages, 70 to 80%. Because this is an asset that we curated, especially for that public domain article that you were already reading.

So we know you're in that zone. You're in that mental space. I am now excited about swearing on sales calls. Udi Ledergor: Tell me more.

And so when you go to our website, I know you're gonna download that PDFI minimize my ask of you just to the email because there's so many tools that can enrich that now to anything. If I wanna know your social security number, I'll find it. Just gimme your email. And then you can go back and continue reading that article.

Udi Ledergor: But now I have your email. So that is, that is the tactic of turning anonymous readers from LinkedIn to known leads on my website that now gimme their email just about continuing that flow from the ungated article to the gated article, knowing what zone you are and just doing that rinse and repeat. And every time we publish an article with a premium asset like that, we see thousands of downloads of the premium asset because we know how to distribute and amplify the public articles, so enough people see it.

We optimize for reach and then the premium article optimizes for conversion. And by marrying those two together, we make the magic happen. Craig Rosenberg: That this is the most actionable show of all time. all right, I I agree, Matt Amundson: man.

Like Matt Amundson: there, Craig Rosenberg: a. Matt Amundson: notes. Udi Ledergor: you ask for tactical, Matt Amundson: card. Craig Rosenberg: Uh, all right, I have a couple, couple thoughts.

Craig Rosenberg: That was incredible. Yeah, I know it sounds like you're like, oh, I'm just, but no, so actionable. Um, so one is, is there a list of swear words that Mo uh, work best on, uh, sales calls? 'cause I need that more as an audit to make Udi Ledergor: We, we, we actually, we actually looked it up.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was kind, kind of the, the, the usual suspects, you know, the S word, the fbo, they, they showed up pretty nicely. Some of them were softer.

Um, but, uh, it, it, it did surprise us. And of course, it, it. Made for an internet field day when we published that that salespeople who swear have an 8% higher win rate. Udi Ledergor: I mean, that was a marketer's dream because Fast company.

com ran with a story earning us more visibility than I could ever pay for. When they ran with a story, radio station started calling me, asking to interview me on air about the story they just read because it was so interesting. And it just kept circulating more and more. Udi Ledergor: And of course, LinkedIn had a field day with about two thirds of the audience commenting with their most colorful vocabulary, saying like, yeah, F yeah, that's what I've been talking about.

And Mary, come see this shit. That's what I've been talking about. And so on. And the the other third being appalled that we would suggest using this kind of language in a professional setting.

Udi Ledergor: But Craig, before we started recording this podcast today, uh, we were talking about something else, and I, I told you that, that you're winning because your biggest enemy is not people hating what you're doing. It's indifference. And that's exactly what we avoided by talking about salespeople, swearing. We did not get indifference.

We had some people love it, some people hate it, but that is the marketer's dream for everyone to have an opinion and be passionate about getting engaged in the discussion. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. You know, um, uh, so there's a LinkedIn, uh, whisperer named Alec Paul. I don't know if you know him.

And he's got, we've had, yeah, we've had him on the show, you know, and he was telling me about Adam Robinson and he was saying like, look, dude, he. Is totally okay with 45% of the people on the comment string ripping him because he knows that's how the, that sort of, uh, uh, not visitor ball, but like traffic ball rolls uphill or downhill. Craig Rosenberg: Right. And it's like per what you said, I mean, he, he creates posts that, uh, get people talking on LinkedIn and elsewhere, and that there's, there's only good things that come from that.

Um, second thing, so, you know, when people do the similar play that UDI runs, but then they say, type in so-and-so in the comments to receive it. Craig Rosenberg: You know, I've done four of those and I've received two. Are, is that a bait and switch? Are people actually, I mean, honestly, like, I'm like, oh, that sounds really interesting.

I'll write in. Um, I forget, you know, whatever they asked me to write. And then out of the four that I've done that for, I've, I've gotten two. Craig Rosenberg: The other two, I'm like, well, fuck you.

You just used me to get traffic. And I'm like, wait a minute. Is this like, uh, I don't know. I, Udi Ledergor: I can tell you that no, I have not tried that.

The only time I did anything similar that just looks similar, but, but has nothing of, of the, that motive. Under it was when I was, um, assembling a reviews team for my book. Um, so six months ago I was preparing for the launch of my book, courageous Marketing, and I wanted to get a few hundred people to read a free copy and when the book was published to write the review on Amazon. So I, I.

I ended up writing a similar post, which basically saying, folks, I'm giving away 300 copies of my book, and, uh, if you just comment me or something like that, I'll send you a link to my book. But I, I actually made sure to send a hundred percent of the people the link and it just looked like one of those posts. Udi Ledergor: But I was not trying to create traffic or anything like that. Um, I've heard from folks like Alec and others that that tactic works, which is why people use it.

Um, LinkedIn algorithm hasn't quite figured it out yet, so it it gives them the traffic. Uh, I, I agree with you. Like I, I don't love them. Um, but I think if you're going to employ them, you should absolutely, like, hold up your reputation and get back to everyone with what they asked for.

Udi Ledergor: If, if they took the time to, uh, engage in your post and ask for something, you should send that to them, but just not my style. And I, I don't do that. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Matt, have you tested any of that?

Matt Amundson: Uh, we haven't done those posts ourself. Matt Amundson: Yeah, we haven't done our, the, any of those posts. We've, we've, we've sort of thought about it. Um, and like, I think some of the people on my marketing team are like, ah, like, everybody does that and like, yeah.

But it still seems to work. Still seems to work. Udi Ledergor: Yeah, I mean, everybody brushes their teeth and, and that's not a good reason not to do it because everyone's doing it. Um, I would say if, if you're gonna experiment, you probably want to mix it up, like maybe do one a month of those and then try other formats.

don't Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: But, but for you, on the other hand, what you're saying is No, I can get people to a landing page. 'cause one of the, The Basics of Email Marketing That Still Work in B2B - Craig Rosenberg: one of the big issues for like a, let's say a non-household brand B2B company is you can email all you want. You're not gonna get the form fills that you're, you know, of, you know, 2015, right?

Craig Rosenberg: Like, it's Udi Ledergor: That depends. Correct? That depends. I, I agree.

That brand helps. Getting responses and clicks on emails and links and that sort of thing, but it's really all about the offer, right. Um, I've, I've been a student of email marketing for the last two decades. And the basic, basic rules haven't changed all that much.

Udi Ledergor: I mean, here are the, like the the first ones that, that I, I, I'm a big believer in the, the only purpose of the subject line is to get people to open the email. Now that sounds so obvious, but if you look at your inbox right now, you'll see that. 99 out of a hundred emails don't follow that rule. They're trying to either sell you in the subject line or tell you their entire history or trying to get cute or smart.

Udi Ledergor: Instead of just getting to the point, the only point of the subject line is to get you to open the email. Once you've done that, the point of the first line is to get you to read the second line and Udi Ledergor: the, the, purpose of the second line, et cetera, until you get to the call to action. The point of the call to action is to get you to do something and the rules of what makes a good call to action. Udi Ledergor: You have to make it super easy.

You have to make it clear. You have to make it, uh, clear what's in it for you. And most call to actions don't follow that. They put something vague, they put something that you're afraid to click 'cause you think it's spam.

And these things are pretty easy to engineer right now. Udi Ledergor: If you do All that. right and you have a big brand name like Gong. Then you're gonna get more clicks.

But if I did this before, I Gong was a big brand name. I was the first marketer at Gong. And trust me, when I say we had Zero brand when I joined, nobody in the world knew who we were. I could still get people to open the emails because Chris Orlob was writing great posts about, you know, it was the last day of the quarter.

Udi Ledergor: I was 150 K short on my quota. I had no idea how I'm gonna make it. And then this is what I did. Now you're gonna click to read the end of that story, right?

Udi Ledergor: You don't Udi Ledergor: care which brand it comes from. You're a salesperson, you wanna see. How Chris made up 50 K. So it's all about the copy, the call to action, beautiful writing, clear clarity of thought.

Craig Rosenberg: Well said. Well said. Okay. The Bait & Switch Twitter Play for Boosting Web Traffic For Startups - Craig Rosenberg: The third one is a bit of a diversion except I thought of bait and switch when I was thinking about other people, not you.

Did you guys see where there was a flood on X of fake women posting? That they were joining a company and it was a traffic play? Did you hear about Craig Rosenberg: this? Udi Ledergor: I have not, and I have to admit that I don't really live on x.

I think the last time I posted there was like 2016. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem. That that's fine too. But yeah, Al bro sent it over and it was like, basically, okay, so here's the message.

Hey, I'm, I'm chow and I'm excited to be joining. Uh, you know, a Twitter handle for a company as chief of staff still in high school just relocated SF looking for more friends in tech in the startup scene, and it's a very attractive woman. Craig Rosenberg: Okay. And then the, I'm just gonna read you a different woman who wrote, Hey, I've just joined the team at Do, do.

as the one and only intern. We'll be working with so and so and so and so, and the rest of the team, it's the same message, different thing. So these guys were all doing this as a bait and switch traffic, uh, grab, because I, I looked in the, on the people's profile there, there's maybe two other posts and they're all pictures of, of this allegedly person. Craig Rosenberg: Here was the other one play that these guys ran.

So they said, so it was a attractive woman. This one scantily clad, to say the least. Okay. Um, I'm based in SF and looking to meet more friends in the startup world than tech community.

A little bit about me, I taught myself how to code. Gee, I wonder who the target was here. I love surfing and I enjoy running marathons. Let's grab coffee or do a fun activity this fall.

Same message from another fake per, so this, and this guy had pointed out, he said, I'm seeing a trend here. And then all these guys started calling out. Basically it was these startups, pri, primarily consumer driving, using these fake people to drive people to their, uh, Twitter handle or X handle or whatever you call it these days. Craig Rosenberg: Talk about a bait and switch, man, that is some dirty pool.

Craig Rosenberg: Some don't like, Udi Ledergor: I don't like that if, if you're starting a relationship with your audience or future buyers by being dishonest, that's not a great start. That is not a great Udi Ledergor: start. Um, so yeah, maybe you have my, my temporary following or maybe you have my email address, but that, that's, that's not a great starter relationship. Udi Ledergor: Because, because you're, you're killing any trust that we have.

And, and we all know that in business, just like in life, relationships are all about trust. If, if I can't trust you, like we're, we're not gonna be doing business together. Craig Rosenberg: A hundred percent. And with the consumer, it's the same B2B or consumer brain, it's the same thing.

You know? It's like, I mean, we, we, we, we, we, all hear and see these scams, um, and we probably fall and pray to them every now and again when, when they're new and we don't even know about them or we were kind of. Multitasking and not noticing what we were clicking. We, we've all been, uh, victims of phishing attempts and, and other scams.

Udi Ledergor: Um, so I don't think this is any different. Again, I don't, I don't know this company. I don't know what their end goal was and what they're trying to accomplish, but, um, there, there's always gonna be bad actors out there. Um, and I think using these techniques, even if you think you have a good ethical goal at the end, I, I don't think that's ever warranted because you're just, uh, breaking whatever trust you had.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I totally agree. All right, so let me ask you guys the, this, the, the, How Gong Develops its Content Marketing & Distribution Strategy Together - Craig Rosenberg: I'll go back to the more, um, relevant thought that I had as you were talking. So do you, 'cause you guys kill it on LinkedIn. You do so well when you decide on content.

And, uh, what came first, the, you created the content piece or you think of it together, like, will this play on LinkedIn and what's the follow up? Craig Rosenberg: Or do you create a content piece and say, Ooh, that will play on LinkedIn. Or like, how does, how do you guys generate that amazing content? Like what's the, like, what can we learn from you guys on that?

Because that, that was a great story and I, I'm just, Craig Rosenberg: I can't wait Craig Rosenberg: to pass that along. Yeah. Udi Ledergor: I'll, I'll answer in three points of how we do this. Number one, it's always about, um, the message and the theme.

So, uh, the Gong content team has a, a content calendar as most teams have. Uh, it's, it's always just the base plan, which life is gonna smack around and change a little bit. As you know, global and social events and industry events change Udi Ledergor: what people are focused on. We're not gonna stick to something.

When, when the pandemic started, we scrapped our, our content calendar in favor of what was actually happening. Of course. So it starts with, let's say we know that this quarter we have a big product announcement. We, we just made some very big product announcements, um, in the last few days that our Celebrate Conference.

Udi Ledergor: So those are going to be the content theme that you're gonna be hearing more and more about this quarter. So that's. If that's what we're trying to get out there, now we're looking at how can we produce the most effective, engaging content. It gets that message across to do that.

We are avid students of our main social media platform, which is LinkedIn. Udi Ledergor: That means like really testing and understanding every week what's currently trending on the algorithm, what people are responding to. Um, it turns out recently that putting your links in the comments is actually detracting, um, traffic from the post and not the other way around like it used to be. There are times where plain text posts are gonna be doing better than images.

Udi Ledergor: There're gonna be times where video does better than images. You have to keep testing because what was true last month is not true this month. Um, and I'll get back with a funny anecdote maybe to end that story. Um, and then the third thing that we do is we also seize opportunities.

So we have at Gong, and this has been. Encourage gongs to freely write about whatever they want. Uh, they don't need to get anything approved by corporate comms or legal or anything like that. They're very loose, um, social media guidelines at Gong, I think they're like one and a half pages long, which basically say like, don't shit on our competitors, but other than, and don't give away our trade secrets.

Udi Ledergor: But other than that, you can do whatever you want. So they do. And we've got a ton of gifted writers and social media posters at Gong when we see them do something cool. Oftentimes Gong will share that on the official corporate profile, giving it more traffic and encouraging more people to do that.

And so we know how to seize these opportunities. Udi Ledergor: And we also have, uh, a content council at Gong, which is a few dozen people outside of the marketing team. So people from sales and customer success and other functions who enjoy creating content on social media. And the, the content team guides us like, this is the theme this month.

What can we do to help you create content about this? Udi Ledergor: So for example, once a quarter we'll get the whole content council together, uh, for a video shooting day where we'll put out maybe 40 videos that day and then we can, uh, sprinkle those across the next few weeks until we get together again. So that's examples of what we do. And maybe I'll end with a really fun anecdote.

Udi Ledergor: So, um, a while ago I was reading the LinkedIn developers blog, that's the thing, it's the LinkedIn engineering blog. Google has one and every platform has one. If you really want to geek out on what they're doing, um, on their algorithm and what they're testing, that's the place to go. And I saw on the LinkedIn, um, engineering blog that one of the engineers wrote a blog about testing a dwell factor in their feed algorithm.

Udi Ledergor: And in simple terms, What that means is they figure that if someone stops scrolling and stares at your post for a while. they, should reward that post with more visibility because you've clearly done something to make them stop scrolling. So my childish mind goes, well, what could I do, to make someone stop scrolling and stare at my post? Udi Ledergor: So I Slack my creative team and said, Hey, can you create a Where's Waldo type image?

But hide Bruno dog our, our bulldog mascot in it. So the next day they give me an image with Bruno, the dog, and I go ahead and post that. And it got a ton of engagement. I got a ton of engagement, A, because it was fun, but two, because I hacked into that dwell factor that was very new and very few people even knew about it at that point.

Udi Ledergor: Then I wrote another PO a point, uh, I wrote another post, which was a breakdown of what I had done there, and that one got even more engagement because people were excited to learn about how I hacked this So this is what I mean about Udi Ledergor: like, focus. You, you can't do this for 20 platforms. Nobody has the resources like you picked the one or two where you know you're gonna make the most impact, which is of course, where your audience is. Udi Ledergor: And then you go really, really deep so you can optimize your content to that platform and then repurpose it to the others if you have to.

But there's no way you way you can do, a dozen platform. Matt Amundson: boom, Craig Rosenberg: I mean, what, what more is there to say? Matt Amundson: not much. Matt Amundson: How long have you got?

the show. That was a great end to the show, Craig Rosenberg: man. Well, uh, I will say, uh. This was an excellent show.

Uh, I learned a ton and it was fun. So you were able to achieve the goals of the transaction, which is to have some fun talking about some real things people can go do. Craig Rosenberg: So I'm going to start with thank you man. That was Matt Amundson: that was My Udi Ledergor: pleasure folks.

Thank you so much for having me, Matt. Craig, it's been a Craig Rosenberg: And we'll have the book in the show notes. See I got a show notes mentioned Craig Rosenberg: in There Yeah, there we go. Uh, and we should talk more about some courageous marketing at some point.

But Udi Ledergor: All these stories and of, more are in courageous marketing. Go. Go get your that's right. Matt Amundson: Yeah, I Craig Rosenberg: right.

That's right. Udi Ledergor: I Craig Rosenberg: Oh, let's let's do it. Alright guys, take the rest of the day off. Craig Rosenberg: Great job.

Craig Rosenberg: That's a transaction. Have a good one. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Transaction, Craig, and I really appreciate the fact that you've listened all the way to the end. What are you actually doing here?

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