Know the "So What" Like a Digital Science PMM

1 00:00:42,002 - > 00:00:44,092 In product marketing, there's a moment that 2 00:00:44,092 - > 00:00:46,642 separates reactive teams from strategic ones. 3 00:00:47,142 - > 00:00:50,142 It's the moment when product says, "Hey, we're launching 4 00:00:50,142 - > 00:00:53,352 next week. Ready? Go." And everyone scrambles. 5 00:00:53,392 - > 00:00:56,012 No clear definition of success, no clarity between 6 00:00:56,012 - > 00:00:59,512 release and launch, no agreement on who owns what, 7 00:00:59,562 - > 00:01:03,212 and somehow PMMs are expected to just make it happen. 8 00:01:04,012 - > 00:01:07,572 Today, we're talking about one of the most transformational 9 00:01:07,572 - > 00:01:10,672 things a product marketer can do, rebuild the entire 10 00:01:10,672 - > 00:01:11,722 go-to-market function. 11 00:01:12,102 - > 00:01:14,782 Not tweaking it or optimizing it, rebuilding it. 12 00:01:15,432 - > 00:01:17,242 With that, it is my pleasure to have Doug 13 00:01:17,242 - > 00:01:18,172 Kimball on the show. 14 00:01:18,642 - > 00:01:20,432 Doug is one of the best PMMs in the business. 15 00:01:20,632 - > 00:01:21,402 Let me tell you why. 16 00:01:21,902 - > 00:01:24,322 He successfully built and managed global marketing and 17 00:01:24,322 - > 00:01:27,332 product marketing teams in multiple companies, helped 18 00:01:27,332 - > 00:01:30,342 plan and deliver several global field kickoffs, and 19 00:01:30,511 - > 00:01:32,561 flipped product launches on their head using the 20 00:01:32,561 - > 00:01:35,481 Pragmatic Institute principles while improving pipeline 21 00:01:35,481 - > 00:01:38,561 impact, team collaboration, and lead development. 22 00:01:38,971 - > 00:01:41,791 And most recently, he has been delivering his 23 00:01:41,791 - > 00:01:43,261 expertise to the masses. 24 00:01:43,291 - > 00:01:46,031 He just published a book on upleveling B2B 25 00:01:46,031 - > 00:01:47,061 positioning and messaging. 26 00:01:47,151 - > 00:01:50,281 It's called, "So What? Why? Who Cares?" Check it out. 27 00:01:50,361 - > 00:01:51,511 You can find it on Amazon. 28 00:01:52,091 - > 00:01:54,871 Oh, and if that weren't cool enough, he has 29 00:01:54,971 - > 00:01:57,361 also been training and teaching Brazilian jujitsu 30 00:01:57,391 - > 00:01:59,391 for more than 18 years. 31 00:01:59,923 - > 00:02:01,403 Doug, it's amazing to have you on the show. 32 00:02:01,969 - > 00:02:02,419 Thank you. 33 00:02:02,419 - > 00:02:04,829 I may have to pause for the blushing part of this, but, 34 00:02:04,829 - > 00:02:05,909 uh, thank you for that intro. 35 00:02:06,299 - > 00:02:08,279 I've had an amazing fortunate career. 36 00:02:08,279 - > 00:02:09,509 I'm just happy to be here, so thank you. 37 00:02:10,283 - > 00:02:13,103 So cool, and, um, I'll have to pick your brain 38 00:02:13,153 - > 00:02:14,293 on the jujitsu piece. 39 00:02:14,293 - > 00:02:16,173 We've been thinking about trying that 40 00:02:16,173 - > 00:02:16,893 out for our daughter. 41 00:02:16,893 - > 00:02:18,683 I just feel like it's something every kid should do. 42 00:02:19,049 - > 00:02:19,799 Highly recommend. 43 00:02:20,068 - > 00:02:22,198 All right, let's dive right in. 44 00:02:22,597 - > 00:02:25,137 So bring our listeners up to be, up to speed a little bit. 45 00:02:25,137 - > 00:02:26,667 You currently work at Digital Science. 46 00:02:26,947 - > 00:02:28,177 What do they do exactly? 47 00:02:28,413 - > 00:02:29,073 G-good question. 48 00:02:29,073 - > 00:02:30,323 A lot of people don't, don't know that one. 49 00:02:30,323 - > 00:02:33,273 So we are a - Digital Science is a company that basically 50 00:02:33,273 - > 00:02:37,823 has a lot of B2C and B2B focus, looking at how to help 51 00:02:37,823 - > 00:02:40,873 bring research and information to market, which there's 52 00:02:40,873 - > 00:02:41,703 a lot of ways into that. 53 00:02:42,053 - > 00:02:45,083 But we focus on academics, funder, funders, um, 54 00:02:45,083 - > 00:02:49,113 not-for-profit, government, uh, publishers, B2C, and 55 00:02:49,113 - > 00:02:51,043 really it's about bringing and streamlining the 56 00:02:51,043 - > 00:02:52,473 research process to market. 57 00:02:52,893 - > 00:02:55,043 And I have the privilege, I enjoy managing their 58 00:02:55,043 - > 00:02:55,743 product marketing team. 59 00:02:55,743 - > 00:02:56,898 Been there since August 60 00:02:57,137 - > 00:02:57,577 Awesome. 61 00:02:57,837 - > 00:02:59,477 It's helpful to have some of the context about the 62 00:02:59,477 - > 00:03:01,897 company itself because the first segment of our show 63 00:03:01,967 - > 00:03:05,257 is the case study, and the case study is exactly about 64 00:03:05,687 - > 00:03:08,938 rebuilding the go-to-market function at, your current 65 00:03:08,938 - > 00:03:10,218 place at Digital Science. 66 00:03:10,248 - > 00:03:13,470 So, let's dig a little deeper into that now. 67 00:03:13,470 - > 00:03:15,960 So in the first segment of our show, we're gonna do this case 68 00:03:15,960 - > 00:03:18,490 study, right, of rebuilding the go-to-market function, 69 00:03:18,830 - > 00:03:21,660 and it's so meaningful because it sits exactly at 70 00:03:21,660 - > 00:03:25,830 the intersection of strategy and influence and ultimately 71 00:03:25,830 - > 00:03:26,750 operational excellence. 72 00:03:27,050 - > 00:03:28,880 So take us back for a minute. 73 00:03:29,310 - > 00:03:32,420 What was happening when you first joined Digital Science? 74 00:03:33,011 - > 00:03:34,211 Controlled chaos. 75 00:03:34,781 - > 00:03:36,401 they had gone through - They've gone through a 76 00:03:36,401 - > 00:03:39,281 lot of acquisitions in the last several years, and in 77 00:03:39,281 - > 00:03:41,161 the beginning of twenty - twenty twenty-five, they'd 78 00:03:41,161 - > 00:03:42,711 gone through what they call Evolve and kind of 79 00:03:42,711 - > 00:03:45,151 tried to merge a bunch of different units together. 80 00:03:45,531 - > 00:03:47,001 We had disparate marketing teams, 81 00:03:47,001 - > 00:03:48,091 disparate product teams. 82 00:03:48,421 - > 00:03:49,791 There really wasn't a cohesive part. 83 00:03:49,791 - > 00:03:51,981 So they, they did a very good job of trying to 84 00:03:52,091 - > 00:03:53,021 put that all together. 85 00:03:53,641 - > 00:03:56,121 But when you have five different segments and 86 00:03:56,121 - > 00:03:58,491 you've got products that go across segments and some 87 00:03:58,491 - > 00:04:01,161 that are segment-oriented only, there's a lot of, 88 00:04:01,211 - > 00:04:02,391 uh, challenges going on. 89 00:04:02,391 - > 00:04:03,331 Again, I'm not trying to be negative. 90 00:04:03,331 - > 00:04:05,221 It was just more, you know, the usual chaos 91 00:04:05,305 - > 00:04:06,975 It's more sophisticated, yeah. 92 00:04:07,221 - > 00:04:07,651 Exactly. 93 00:04:08,186 - > 00:04:09,606 what was really cool, and one of the reasons 94 00:04:09,606 - > 00:04:11,626 I was interested, is they do a lot of really 95 00:04:11,626 - > 00:04:12,636 innovative stuff there. 96 00:04:13,070 - > 00:04:17,221 the ability to, for example, track where a researcher might 97 00:04:17,221 - > 00:04:20,831 be cited in a publication someplace or track patent 98 00:04:20,831 - > 00:04:23,361 information, things I really hadn't thought about before. 99 00:04:23,611 - > 00:04:25,341 Like, that's really important stuff they do. 100 00:04:25,857 - > 00:04:29,007 but the challenge was that these business units 101 00:04:29,007 - > 00:04:31,127 weren't always really working well together. 102 00:04:31,637 - > 00:04:33,927 We did a lot of product launches. 103 00:04:33,957 - > 00:04:36,097 I mean, more product launches on average. 104 00:04:36,367 - > 00:04:39,577 Companies our size, we were doing twice as many product 105 00:04:39,577 - > 00:04:40,897 launches than most companies. 106 00:04:40,897 - > 00:04:43,483 So, when I talk about launch, it wasn't just launch 107 00:04:43,483 - > 00:04:44,573 sometimes as it was a release. 108 00:04:44,793 - > 00:04:45,803 "Hey, we're gonna release this. 109 00:04:45,803 - > 00:04:46,953 Let's make a PR." I'm like, "Well, that's not 110 00:04:46,953 - > 00:04:49,983 really the same thing as a launch." So part of it 111 00:04:49,983 - > 00:04:53,053 was me just getting them to understand that, release 112 00:04:53,053 - > 00:04:54,973 and launch and go-to-market, there is a little bit of a 113 00:04:54,973 - > 00:04:55,983 difference apiece on that. 114 00:04:56,506 - > 00:04:57,336 Yeah, yeah. 115 00:04:57,366 - > 00:04:59,556 And that's, it's so funny you mention that because I feel 116 00:04:59,556 - > 00:05:02,753 like that's happened, every PMM out there can attest to 117 00:05:02,813 - > 00:05:04,863 experiencing that happen, is what I'm trying to say. 118 00:05:05,253 - > 00:05:08,933 So when launch means something different to everyone, and 119 00:05:08,933 - > 00:05:11,273 you don't really have a go-to-market function when 120 00:05:11,273 - > 00:05:13,043 you're doing that, when everyone kind of is speaking 121 00:05:13,043 - > 00:05:13,893 a different language. 122 00:05:14,238 - > 00:05:16,777 so tell a little bit more about specifically, like, 123 00:05:16,777 - > 00:05:19,937 what was, what do you think was broken in that situation? 124 00:05:20,310 - > 00:05:22,690 The first thing that was identified as broken was 125 00:05:22,690 - > 00:05:25,210 that product owned the commercial part of launch. 126 00:05:25,290 - > 00:05:28,730 So product would say, "We're gonna release XYZ 127 00:05:28,730 - > 00:05:30,520 product feature name, whatever it's gonna be 128 00:05:30,520 - > 00:05:33,470 on April fifteenth." Why? 129 00:05:34,130 - > 00:05:34,930 There wasn't really a plan. 130 00:05:34,930 - > 00:05:36,650 It was more, "Well, we're done, so we're 131 00:05:36,650 - > 00:05:37,410 going to release it." 132 00:05:37,410 - > 00:05:39,350 And again, that's going back to the release versus launch, 133 00:05:39,795 - > 00:05:43,390 which Again, I, I can't, uh, be difficult about that. 134 00:05:43,530 - > 00:05:44,310 A lot of companies do that. 135 00:05:44,310 - > 00:05:45,860 They confuse release versus launch. 136 00:05:46,250 - > 00:05:48,480 So one of the first things that I pushed in there was 137 00:05:48,480 - > 00:05:51,280 saying, "No, marketing, specifically product 138 00:05:51,280 - > 00:05:54,000 marketing, needs to be the one that owns the commercial 139 00:05:54,000 - > 00:05:55,470 decision to make a launch." 140 00:05:56,070 - > 00:05:58,460 We're the ones, as you know just as well as I do, 141 00:05:58,790 - > 00:06:01,980 that make all the pre- and post-launch, especially 142 00:06:01,980 - > 00:06:04,120 the post-launch people, get things successful. 143 00:06:04,550 - > 00:06:06,730 And if we're not involved in that, if we're just being 144 00:06:06,730 - > 00:06:09,810 tossed over the, the fence and say, "Go launch, run," 145 00:06:10,180 - > 00:06:12,670 we're gonna run really fast in a lot of wrong directions. 146 00:06:12,670 - > 00:06:15,772 So, the other thing I started asking about was basically, 147 00:06:15,772 - > 00:06:17,332 why are we doing this launch? 148 00:06:17,362 - > 00:06:19,792 Is there a particular audience we're going after? 149 00:06:19,792 - > 00:06:21,202 Are we trying to prevent churn? 150 00:06:21,202 - > 00:06:23,992 Do we have a new competitive response we wanna do? 151 00:06:24,252 - > 00:06:26,302 All those different reasons of what is the, 152 00:06:26,392 - > 00:06:27,432 the reason behind this? 153 00:06:28,182 - > 00:06:29,592 I like this new product feature. 154 00:06:29,962 - > 00:06:31,502 That's not enough to make a launch out of it. 155 00:06:32,012 - > 00:06:35,082 This is gonna help us to push back a competitive incursion. 156 00:06:35,392 - > 00:06:36,122 Now I'm listening. 157 00:06:36,122 - > 00:06:39,612 Or this is a major enhancement to our AI capabilities and 158 00:06:39,612 - > 00:06:40,822 gonna differentiate us. 159 00:06:41,172 - > 00:06:42,172 Now we're doing something. 160 00:06:42,462 - > 00:06:46,382 So we really didn't have this, um, shared definition 161 00:06:46,382 - > 00:06:48,672 of what success looked like from a launch. 162 00:06:49,052 - > 00:06:51,682 It was more we have released it and we have launched and 163 00:06:51,682 - > 00:06:54,853 we have made noise, and then we kind of paused there. 164 00:06:54,853 - > 00:06:56,993 So that was the... one of the biggest things I think that 165 00:06:56,993 - > 00:06:58,713 was, was broken beforehand. 166 00:06:59,277 - > 00:06:59,447 Yeah. 167 00:06:59,447 - > 00:07:00,057 Yes, yes. 168 00:07:00,057 - > 00:07:01,867 So you have this, like, lack of clarity, lack of 169 00:07:01,867 - > 00:07:04,691 alignment, a- and then you already mentioned right 170 00:07:04,691 - > 00:07:06,961 away, like, ownership. 171 00:07:07,216 - > 00:07:10,894 so now talk a little bit about, like, the task at hand. 172 00:07:10,894 - > 00:07:12,824 You know, at what point did you realize, like, "Okay, 173 00:07:12,824 - > 00:07:14,634 this isn't something we need to tweak. Need, we need 174 00:07:14,634 - > 00:07:16,004 to actually rebuild this"? 175 00:07:16,280 - > 00:07:16,470 Yeah. 176 00:07:16,470 - > 00:07:19,214 seeing a couple of launches that got pushed out while 177 00:07:19,251 - > 00:07:21,401 I was still coming on board that, again, I don't wanna 178 00:07:21,401 - > 00:07:22,411 say nothing has failed. 179 00:07:22,411 - > 00:07:24,311 The, the company's quite successful, doing great 180 00:07:24,311 - > 00:07:28,071 things, but we don't want a launch to do okay. 181 00:07:28,611 - > 00:07:30,441 You know, we want a launch to really just kick butt 182 00:07:30,441 - > 00:07:32,591 and make some serious noise and drive leads and drive 183 00:07:32,591 - > 00:07:35,221 awareness and call it, you know, we all want revenue. 184 00:07:36,031 - > 00:07:37,871 And I started asking a lot of questions and meeting 185 00:07:37,871 - > 00:07:40,051 with the sales teams, the product marketing team - 186 00:07:40,051 - > 00:07:42,601 sorry, product management team, leadership, and just 187 00:07:42,601 - > 00:07:45,021 asking these questions of what it was it that we wanted 188 00:07:45,021 - > 00:07:48,031 to get out of a launch, what that meant and what release 189 00:07:48,031 - > 00:07:52,430 meant to them, and realizing that we weren't doing enough 190 00:07:52,500 - > 00:07:55,330 before a launch to have things planned effectively, 191 00:07:55,690 - > 00:07:58,450 and we weren't doing things as well after a launch for 192 00:07:58,450 - > 00:08:01,230 them to have true impact, uh, from the market and drive a 193 00:08:01,230 - > 00:08:02,220 commercial impact to that. 194 00:08:02,480 - > 00:08:04,080 So it, it really is just me. 195 00:08:04,080 - > 00:08:05,540 I mean, I'm very good at asking questions. 196 00:08:05,540 - > 00:08:07,040 Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're dumb. 197 00:08:07,519 - > 00:08:08,051 but I'd rather... 198 00:08:08,135 - > 00:08:09,775 No such thing as a dumb question. 199 00:08:09,941 - > 00:08:11,081 I like that. 200 00:08:11,281 - > 00:08:15,502 Uh, I'd rather be persistent and, get the answer to a 201 00:08:15,502 - > 00:08:17,512 question and then, then, okay, what's the second 202 00:08:17,512 - > 00:08:18,422 level of that question? 203 00:08:18,422 - > 00:08:20,952 And okay, great, now I understand that you and I 204 00:08:20,952 - > 00:08:23,452 are not speaking the same language when it comes down to 205 00:08:23,452 - > 00:08:26,782 the answer to this question, and here's what I define 206 00:08:26,782 - > 00:08:29,722 this based on my- You know, 15-plus years of product 207 00:08:29,722 - > 00:08:33,962 marketing as a launch, as a commercial success, uh, 208 00:08:33,962 - > 00:08:35,272 here's what you define that. 209 00:08:35,782 - > 00:08:37,762 And then looking at it from what are the revenue 210 00:08:37,762 - > 00:08:39,992 goals that we're trying to accomplish, because 211 00:08:39,992 - > 00:08:41,982 again, a go-to-market should drive revenue. 212 00:08:42,692 - > 00:08:43,842 Are we mapping that back? 213 00:08:43,872 - > 00:08:45,462 And so it was just a lot of questions, a 214 00:08:45,462 - > 00:08:46,492 lot of conversation. 215 00:08:47,172 - > 00:08:51,142 But also because as I said, we were kind of a, not a 216 00:08:51,142 - > 00:08:53,132 cohesive product marketing team when I came on door- 217 00:08:53,132 - > 00:08:56,402 board just because of the situation, was to... 218 00:08:56,792 - > 00:08:59,752 I had to rebuild the go-to-market function and 219 00:08:59,752 - > 00:09:03,292 also define what product marketing is, what we do. 220 00:09:03,562 - > 00:09:06,432 What we don't do was just as critical as anything else, 221 00:09:06,802 - > 00:09:09,352 and then start to develop those processes around how 222 00:09:09,352 - > 00:09:10,452 we bring a product to market. 223 00:09:10,522 - > 00:09:13,012 All the - Everything from the, "I have a product 224 00:09:13,102 - > 00:09:15,582 release to talk about," to, "I'm nurturing the 225 00:09:15,582 - > 00:09:17,362 flows 90 days later." 226 00:09:18,318 - > 00:09:18,558 Yeah. 227 00:09:18,768 - > 00:09:20,558 You make it sound easy by saying, "Yeah, just rebuilt 228 00:09:20,558 - > 00:09:21,418 the go-to-market function," 229 00:09:21,458 - > 00:09:21,638 you know? 230 00:09:21,738 - > 00:09:22,288 No big deal. 231 00:09:22,399 - > 00:09:22,739 an hour. 232 00:09:23,549 - > 00:09:23,739 hours. 233 00:09:24,908 - > 00:09:26,218 All right, guys, we're done. 234 00:09:26,848 - > 00:09:29,888 But seriously, this is where a lot of PMMs get stuck, 235 00:09:30,258 - > 00:09:32,058 and I'm sure there's a lot of differing of opinions or 236 00:09:32,058 - > 00:09:33,968 approaches out there around, like, how do you do this? 237 00:09:33,968 - > 00:09:37,158 But I guess, like, break down for me, like, your plan 238 00:09:37,158 - > 00:09:41,338 of action and how you, how you actually, like, did it. 239 00:09:41,338 - > 00:09:43,028 You don't have to - We're not gonna go into the specifics 240 00:09:43,028 - > 00:09:43,708 quite yet, obviously. 241 00:09:43,708 - > 00:09:45,558 We're gonna build a playbook together in just 242 00:09:45,558 - > 00:09:46,578 a, in just a moment here. 243 00:09:46,578 - > 00:09:50,068 But r-real quick, like, just kind of bullet point, 244 00:09:50,228 - > 00:09:53,018 like, what, what the action was, the plan of 245 00:09:53,018 - > 00:09:54,018 action to, 246 00:09:54,018 - > 00:09:54,278 to 247 00:09:54,429 - > 00:09:56,279 was, again, like I, I always go back to the 248 00:09:56,279 - > 00:09:57,919 questions because that's just what I'm good at. 249 00:09:58,389 - > 00:09:59,729 but it was really just like... Okay. 250 00:09:59,729 - > 00:10:01,739 So to, to, you know, to your point, it was 251 00:10:01,739 - > 00:10:02,419 not an easy thing. 252 00:10:02,419 - > 00:10:03,289 It was not a short thing. 253 00:10:03,799 - > 00:10:06,699 There's so many stakeholders because, again, we have five 254 00:10:06,699 - > 00:10:07,889 segments in the organization. 255 00:10:08,309 - > 00:10:11,469 We've got product and we've got sales, who are my let's 256 00:10:11,469 - > 00:10:13,769 call my key audiences, and then I have my boss as well. 257 00:10:14,709 - > 00:10:17,169 I spent a lot of time with each of the stakeholders 258 00:10:17,169 - > 00:10:19,229 for each of those groups, basically saying: What is it 259 00:10:19,229 - > 00:10:22,429 d- that you are looking for when it comes to defining 260 00:10:22,429 - > 00:10:24,729 a successful product launch or a go-to-market? 261 00:10:25,179 - > 00:10:27,809 And go-to-market and launch in the conversations 262 00:10:27,809 - > 00:10:29,769 were treated kind of a similar conversation. 263 00:10:30,351 - > 00:10:32,711 and really, you know, where are we now? 264 00:10:33,141 - > 00:10:35,697 What are we doing now that, that is, is our kind of 265 00:10:35,697 - > 00:10:37,027 our state of, our state of the union, the, the 266 00:10:37,157 - > 00:10:37,877 regular thing we're doing? 267 00:10:38,567 - > 00:10:39,437 What's working? 268 00:10:39,487 - > 00:10:41,707 And like I said, some things were working very well. 269 00:10:41,707 - > 00:10:43,937 With the, the person who was managing this and the project 270 00:10:43,937 - > 00:10:46,107 manag- product management office, fantastic job. 271 00:10:46,567 - > 00:10:48,287 Uh, but what wasn't working? 272 00:10:48,287 - > 00:10:51,137 And a lot of what wasn't working was, I mean, 273 00:10:51,137 - > 00:10:53,097 sales wasn't being notified early enough. 274 00:10:53,187 - > 00:10:54,787 Pre-sales wasn't getting the information in order 275 00:10:54,787 - > 00:10:55,907 to prepare for a demo. 276 00:10:56,397 - > 00:10:58,467 Uh, lead generation or demand, the growth marketing 277 00:10:58,467 - > 00:11:00,677 teams weren't being fed information in order 278 00:11:00,677 - > 00:11:01,897 to plan for campaigns. 279 00:11:01,897 - > 00:11:03,177 You know, I could go on and on about that. 280 00:11:03,777 - > 00:11:07,007 And once I understood all that, again, like I said, I 281 00:11:07,007 - > 00:11:09,547 came back and said, "Product marketing is gonna be the 282 00:11:09,547 - > 00:11:12,857 ones owning the decision to go live." And I put - 283 00:11:13,197 - > 00:11:15,427 During my, my first two months, I put two launches 284 00:11:15,427 - > 00:11:18,187 on hold because the product marketer came to me and 285 00:11:18,187 - > 00:11:19,697 said, "Here's where we are. 286 00:11:19,697 - > 00:11:21,547 I wanna launch whatever, you know, date," which 287 00:11:21,547 - > 00:11:22,377 was like next week. 288 00:11:22,742 - > 00:11:24,622 I said, "Well, do we have this, this?" "No, we 289 00:11:24,622 - > 00:11:27,342 don't." Like I said, "No, we are not launching." I, 290 00:11:27,342 - > 00:11:29,042 you know, I made myself a little unpopular. 291 00:11:29,042 - > 00:11:31,752 I probably still am a little, but, but it... Again, it's not 292 00:11:31,752 - > 00:11:35,492 about Doug, it's about does this have a success with that? 293 00:11:36,052 - > 00:11:37,422 this gonna serve the company? 294 00:11:37,422 - > 00:11:38,632 Is it gonna serve the customer? 295 00:11:38,632 - > 00:11:40,402 And like, we're gonna try to take the best 296 00:11:40,402 - > 00:11:41,382 action that's going to 297 00:11:41,508 - > 00:11:41,668 Yeah. 298 00:11:41,918 - > 00:11:42,128 Yeah. 299 00:11:42,248 - > 00:11:44,358 And, you know, we talked about, and, you know, I 300 00:11:44,358 - > 00:11:45,888 don't want, depending if you want to get into it, but, 301 00:11:45,888 - > 00:11:48,148 you know, we wa- we moved into - we tiered launches. 302 00:11:48,148 - > 00:11:49,738 Nothing that's, you know, dramatically new 303 00:11:49,738 - > 00:11:50,368 and surprising there. 304 00:11:50,368 - > 00:11:51,908 Tiered launches have been talked about a lot of 305 00:11:51,908 - > 00:11:53,188 these, your great podcasts. 306 00:11:53,592 - > 00:11:55,702 but, you know, I had to go then say, "Now we've 307 00:11:55,702 - > 00:11:59,382 educated the, the teams on what a good launch means, 308 00:11:59,712 - > 00:12:00,542 how do we put that in 309 00:12:00,542 - > 00:12:01,162 place?" 310 00:12:01,583 - > 00:12:03,273 so another thing we did, and again, 311 00:12:03,273 - > 00:12:04,903 nothing, you know, dramatically unusual for 312 00:12:04,903 - > 00:12:07,713 product launches, is talking about a tiered framework and 313 00:12:07,713 - > 00:12:10,023 really provide more clarity around what those were. 314 00:12:10,463 - > 00:12:12,413 Agreed, we had an agreed through framework, 315 00:12:12,413 - > 00:12:13,783 what assets will be part of that. 316 00:12:14,026 - > 00:12:16,008 Introduced a new, basically a framework of 317 00:12:16,008 - > 00:12:18,848 90-60-30, 30-60-90, we can talk about that later. 318 00:12:19,668 - > 00:12:21,958 Really worked to imple- improve our product 319 00:12:21,958 - > 00:12:22,818 requirement documents. 320 00:12:22,818 - > 00:12:25,378 So taking that, the so what, why, who cares framework, 321 00:12:25,758 - > 00:12:27,958 embedding that in there, putting together a launch 322 00:12:27,958 - > 00:12:31,478 council, and just really made it much more clear where 323 00:12:31,478 - > 00:12:33,988 stakeholders were going to be involved in this process. 324 00:12:34,448 - > 00:12:35,987 And, that only took two hours. 325 00:12:36,181 - > 00:12:37,891 You know, as you were, like right before 326 00:12:37,891 - > 00:12:38,911 you said it actually, 327 00:12:39,001 - > 00:12:39,861 as you were answering some of 328 00:12:39,861 - > 00:12:42,491 my previous questions, I could actually start to 329 00:12:42,491 - > 00:12:46,371 see the so what, why, who cares just in how your 330 00:12:46,371 - > 00:12:47,111 brain thinks. 331 00:12:47,511 - > 00:12:48,441 So I just really love that. 332 00:12:48,877 - > 00:12:51,297 you mentioned so much here that I want to unpack 333 00:12:51,727 - > 00:12:53,197 further, which I know will come to the playbook, 334 00:12:53,267 - > 00:12:55,667 but first I wanna quickly ask about stakeholders. 335 00:12:56,077 - > 00:12:57,277 How did you manage their 336 00:12:57,277 - > 00:13:01,287 expectations and like, I guess with all these big changes 337 00:13:01,287 - > 00:13:04,177 you wanted to make, like was there, was there pushback, 338 00:13:04,177 - > 00:13:05,497 and just how did you manage 339 00:13:05,497 - > 00:13:05,667 all 340 00:13:05,667 - > 00:13:05,987 of that? 341 00:13:06,031 - > 00:13:09,331 Very fortunate in that the, uh, uh, I guess her, I'm 342 00:13:09,331 - > 00:13:11,171 not sure exactly her title, I call her head of product. 343 00:13:11,171 - > 00:13:12,991 She's kind of, she's not a CPO, she's below... 344 00:13:12,991 - > 00:13:14,401 that reports to the CPO. 345 00:13:14,811 - > 00:13:17,351 She is also newer, new-newer to the organization. 346 00:13:17,351 - > 00:13:19,071 She is - She's awesome. 347 00:13:19,191 - > 00:13:23,421 She's a gem, and we have, we gelled very early on, so 348 00:13:23,421 - > 00:13:25,021 we've got a very good rapport. 349 00:13:25,241 - > 00:13:27,321 Uh, we don't always agree, but we, uh, 350 00:13:27,321 - > 00:13:28,451 disagree constructively, 351 00:13:28,451 - > 00:13:29,261 if it makes any sense. 352 00:13:29,751 - > 00:13:33,211 So having her on board, and she and I are very aligned, 353 00:13:33,631 - > 00:13:35,481 uh, she's also gone through the Pragmatic Institute 354 00:13:35,481 - > 00:13:36,991 training and a lot, which was helpful. 355 00:13:37,601 - > 00:13:38,811 That was really, really big. 356 00:13:38,811 - > 00:13:39,781 So she was help, able to 357 00:13:39,781 - > 00:13:41,451 help, you know, go upstream on her 358 00:13:41,451 - > 00:13:42,851 side and, you know, 359 00:13:42,851 - > 00:13:44,071 had the alignment on my side with 360 00:13:44,071 - > 00:13:44,451 things. 361 00:13:44,991 - > 00:13:47,221 But she also would say, "You should talk to so and 362 00:13:47,221 - > 00:13:47,961 so forth, and 363 00:13:47,961 - > 00:13:49,251 have those conversations with that 364 00:13:49,251 - > 00:13:51,511 particular product manager or that particular product 365 00:13:51,511 - > 00:13:54,541 lead, uh, that pre-sales person." So there's a lot 366 00:13:54,541 - > 00:13:57,613 of just identifying you know, who had a, a stick 367 00:13:57,613 - > 00:13:58,583 in the fire that needed to 368 00:13:58,583 - > 00:13:58,993 poke. 369 00:13:59,413 - > 00:14:00,993 Uh, and that was really important. 370 00:14:01,571 - > 00:14:02,818 But also then going back 371 00:14:02,818 - > 00:14:05,158 and looking again at the massive amount of 372 00:14:05,158 - > 00:14:08,428 launches we already had and seeing how they did and 373 00:14:08,428 - > 00:14:12,258 seeing where they did well and seeing where they didn't 374 00:14:12,258 - > 00:14:12,798 do as well. 375 00:14:13,088 - > 00:14:14,698 So it was really just about understanding 376 00:14:15,228 - > 00:14:16,338 all the facets of what 377 00:14:16,338 - > 00:14:18,848 happened with the product launches, releases 378 00:14:18,888 - > 00:14:21,808 and launches to define where it didn't work. 379 00:14:22,396 - > 00:14:27,276 Yeah, and I could imagine that as, you know, you're the 380 00:14:27,276 - > 00:14:32,210 new guy in town, and here you are evaluating past launches. 381 00:14:32,550 - > 00:14:35,890 That could not feel great, I would imagine, to the person 382 00:14:35,890 - > 00:14:38,890 whose work is being evaluated from a person who wasn't even 383 00:14:38,890 - > 00:14:40,580 there when it all happened. 384 00:14:41,240 - > 00:14:44,240 So I'm curious, and, and now, and, and you have 385 00:14:44,240 - > 00:14:45,530 new ideas and thoughts, 386 00:14:45,530 - > 00:14:47,340 and it sounds like you're lucky that you have a, a 387 00:14:47,340 - > 00:14:50,350 stakeholder who is amenable and open to hearing you 388 00:14:50,350 - > 00:14:53,150 out and like wanting to support you, so that's 389 00:14:53,420 - > 00:14:55,220 already a step ahead. 390 00:14:55,810 - > 00:14:58,000 But how did stakeholders and leadership respond 391 00:14:58,000 - > 00:14:58,840 to you coming in and 392 00:14:58,840 - > 00:14:59,390 doing that? 393 00:14:59,454 - > 00:15:00,584 I got really good at tap dancing. 394 00:15:01,024 - > 00:15:04,794 Um, overall, I would say pretty good. 395 00:15:04,904 - > 00:15:07,544 There, you know, there were a couple of conflicts here and 396 00:15:07,544 - > 00:15:11,454 there that, you know, some I created some challenges 397 00:15:11,454 - > 00:15:13,824 with, some it was more miscommunication, here's what 398 00:15:13,824 - > 00:15:15,404 you mean, here's what I mean. 399 00:15:15,794 - > 00:15:17,694 Uh, some just plain disagreement. 400 00:15:17,694 - > 00:15:18,904 No, we're gonna do it like that. 401 00:15:19,321 - > 00:15:22,092 and I try to find that balance between, you know, 402 00:15:22,092 - > 00:15:24,102 being the new guy and having that honeymoon period 403 00:15:24,102 - > 00:15:25,902 and coming in, "Hey, let's do this," and full of 404 00:15:25,902 - > 00:15:27,162 ideas and full of energy. 405 00:15:27,902 - > 00:15:29,822 You know, also having been there, done that a few 406 00:15:29,822 - > 00:15:32,612 times, been on both sides of that, that I can't just 407 00:15:32,612 - > 00:15:34,502 walk in like the bull in the China shop and say, "I 408 00:15:34,502 - > 00:15:35,422 have all the right ideas. 409 00:15:35,422 - > 00:15:37,922 We're gonna do it Doug's way," 'cause it's not Doug's way. 410 00:15:37,952 - > 00:15:38,942 It's, it's our way. 411 00:15:39,357 - > 00:15:42,367 but also having had several people in the first 412 00:15:42,367 - > 00:15:43,587 three or four months say, 413 00:15:43,947 - > 00:15:46,987 "We think you should be more pushy," which was weird for 414 00:15:46,987 - > 00:15:49,417 me because it's just not my style, and I'm used to working 415 00:15:49,417 - > 00:15:50,507 with global organizations. 416 00:15:50,518 - > 00:15:53,238 I had people - I've had people say that to me too, and 417 00:15:53,238 - > 00:15:54,288 that's not my style either. 418 00:15:54,288 - > 00:15:55,718 I'm just, I'm a little bit softer 419 00:15:55,748 - > 00:15:56,658 in my approach. 420 00:15:56,797 - > 00:15:58,557 think there's definitely a time to do that, and I, I 421 00:15:58,557 - > 00:16:00,627 am all about collaboration, let's get all in 422 00:16:00,627 - > 00:16:01,807 the same boat going together. 423 00:16:02,170 - > 00:16:03,878 but also I have learned over the years, sometimes you 424 00:16:03,878 - > 00:16:06,148 just gotta push forward, you know, knowing that 425 00:16:06,148 - > 00:16:07,258 you're doing what is the 426 00:16:07,258 - > 00:16:09,478 right thing for the organization, not 427 00:16:09,478 - > 00:16:10,198 for Doug, but for the 428 00:16:10,198 - > 00:16:10,948 organization. 429 00:16:11,351 - > 00:16:13,111 and just, just really push through. 430 00:16:13,201 - > 00:16:14,991 and, so again, taking it 431 00:16:14,991 - > 00:16:17,381 back to why it was so important 432 00:16:17,381 - > 00:16:19,481 that product marketers owned the commercial 433 00:16:19,481 - > 00:16:22,291 launch decision, because again, we understand what's 434 00:16:22,291 - > 00:16:23,061 going on in the marketing. 435 00:16:23,061 - > 00:16:24,461 We hand- we handle the messaging. 436 00:16:24,731 - > 00:16:25,571 We're looking at revenue 437 00:16:25,571 - > 00:16:26,111 outcomes. 438 00:16:26,411 - > 00:16:28,401 Not that product market- managers don't care about 439 00:16:28,401 - > 00:16:31,621 revenue, but we're closer to that revenue and that 440 00:16:31,621 - > 00:16:32,681 strategic side of things. 441 00:16:33,061 - > 00:16:35,101 So yeah, there was some education and there was 442 00:16:35,101 - > 00:16:37,211 some little bit of bruised feelings, and I had to step 443 00:16:37,211 - > 00:16:39,131 back sometimes and say, "I'd like this, but 444 00:16:39,131 - > 00:16:40,051 I'm gonna get this." 445 00:16:40,652 - > 00:16:40,982 Yeah. 446 00:16:41,132 - > 00:16:41,322 A lot of 447 00:16:41,322 - > 00:16:41,982 compromise. 448 00:16:42,282 - > 00:16:45,709 And I'm sure over, over time you prove, you kind of earn 449 00:16:45,709 - > 00:16:50,429 trust and you, you prove how your ideas and your frameworks 450 00:16:50,429 - > 00:16:52,469 are working, and then you, you get a little more. 451 00:16:52,559 - > 00:16:54,019 That's sometimes that's just how it works. 452 00:16:54,412 - > 00:16:57,512 so it sounds like, you know, stepping back here, 453 00:16:57,512 - > 00:16:58,742 you had to, to rebuild this 454 00:16:58,742 - > 00:16:59,822 go-to-market function. 455 00:17:00,512 - > 00:17:03,192 A lot of sophistication, a lot of like layers of 456 00:17:03,192 - > 00:17:05,552 complexity with all these different business units, 457 00:17:05,552 - > 00:17:08,767 and it's kind of messy and, you're in r- your reaction 458 00:17:08,767 - > 00:17:11,327 mode or the, the, the team is in reaction mode. 459 00:17:11,877 - > 00:17:14,107 Um, and then you've come in, you did all this 460 00:17:14,107 - > 00:17:17,267 research, you implemented all of these things. 461 00:17:17,727 - > 00:17:18,387 What happened 462 00:17:18,387 - > 00:17:18,607 in the 463 00:17:18,607 - > 00:17:18,897 end? 464 00:17:18,921 - > 00:17:19,901 Success, honestly. 465 00:17:19,901 - > 00:17:21,791 That's what really kind of feels good about this 466 00:17:21,791 - > 00:17:24,001 is that, you know, I was just on a call about an 467 00:17:24,001 - > 00:17:25,821 hour ago with that head of product I was talking about. 468 00:17:26,543 - > 00:17:28,673 so we, we, we kicked it off January 1st, so 469 00:17:28,673 - > 00:17:30,423 we have an, an... We, we - So let me back up. 470 00:17:30,543 - > 00:17:31,203 That's jumping ahead. 471 00:17:31,763 - > 00:17:34,683 We put together all the processes, laid them all 472 00:17:34,683 - > 00:17:37,733 out there, documented them, communicated to the 473 00:17:37,733 - > 00:17:38,443 teams that are gonna be 474 00:17:38,443 - > 00:17:43,573 involved, both on webinars and on email and pri- in slides. 475 00:17:43,953 - > 00:17:45,673 Uh, I presented to some of the senior management 476 00:17:45,673 - > 00:17:47,393 to say, "Here's what the, the short version. 477 00:17:47,703 - > 00:17:48,893 Here's what we're gonna be doing. 478 00:17:48,893 - > 00:17:50,523 Here's what the why behind this is. 479 00:17:50,523 - > 00:17:54,188 Here's the value it's gonna yield." made better role 480 00:17:54,218 - > 00:17:56,528 alignment between what product managers do and what 481 00:17:56,528 - > 00:17:57,698 product marketers will do. 482 00:17:58,288 - > 00:18:00,458 Still some education ongoing about that one, but 483 00:18:00,508 - > 00:18:01,548 making a lot of progress. 484 00:18:01,778 - > 00:18:04,378 Uh, put together a launch council as part of the whole 485 00:18:04,378 - > 00:18:05,988 process so that, you know, 486 00:18:05,988 - > 00:18:09,138 there was the, the key stakeholders from each group 487 00:18:09,138 - > 00:18:10,928 that needs to be part of this whole launch success 488 00:18:10,928 - > 00:18:12,578 process were involved. 489 00:18:13,008 - > 00:18:15,858 Kicked the first one off or early part of January, 490 00:18:15,888 - > 00:18:17,578 um, '20 - this year, 2026. 491 00:18:18,068 - > 00:18:21,498 Uh, and even in just that first meeting, you're watching 492 00:18:21,498 - > 00:18:23,388 some of the chat come through and it's like, "This is 493 00:18:23,388 - > 00:18:24,028 what we've been needing 494 00:18:24,028 - > 00:18:24,678 all along. 495 00:18:24,678 - > 00:18:25,888 This is a great way for us to 496 00:18:25,888 - > 00:18:27,298 change our go-to-market pro..." I mean, 497 00:18:27,298 - > 00:18:27,948 people are saying 498 00:18:27,948 - > 00:18:28,888 that, not product 499 00:18:28,888 - > 00:18:29,428 marketers. 500 00:18:29,978 - > 00:18:31,648 You know, product managers and other people are saying 501 00:18:31,878 - > 00:18:33,188 positive things in the chat. 502 00:18:33,188 - > 00:18:33,218 You're 503 00:18:33,218 - > 00:18:33,518 like, 504 00:18:33,998 - > 00:18:35,088 "Win. I can go home now." 505 00:18:35,650 - > 00:18:37,140 and also to be very honest, and this is what I was just 506 00:18:37,140 - > 00:18:38,300 talking to my head of, head of product 507 00:18:38,300 - > 00:18:40,190 about, 'cause she was, you know, "Well, you know, I 508 00:18:40,190 - > 00:18:41,400 feel like we're not doing this. We're not... We're 509 00:18:41,400 - > 00:18:42,770 missing... People are complaining about this." 510 00:18:42,770 - > 00:18:44,850 And I said, "I agree." I said, "Remember, 80/20. 511 00:18:45,330 - > 00:18:45,720 Let's get 512 00:18:45,720 - > 00:18:48,500 80% of the things lined up and we're doing great things, 513 00:18:48,500 - > 00:18:49,660 we're making great progress. 514 00:18:50,040 - > 00:18:53,170 Where we were, where we are now to where we were four or 515 00:18:53,170 - > 00:18:55,870 five months ago is hugely improved." I 516 00:18:55,870 - > 00:18:56,600 said, "We have to sit 517 00:18:56,600 - > 00:18:58,730 back and go, 'Okay, we're making progress 518 00:18:58,730 - > 00:18:59,770 over perfection. 519 00:18:59,770 - > 00:19:01,240 We've, we've chipped away all the rough parts. 520 00:19:01,240 - > 00:19:01,950 Now we're smoothing 521 00:19:01,950 - > 00:19:03,350 things off.'" So we have to 522 00:19:03,350 - > 00:19:06,450 remind people that we've made tremendous progress. 523 00:19:06,540 - > 00:19:08,200 We're not a hu- we're not 100%. 524 00:19:09,010 - > 00:19:11,270 We may never get to 100%, but we can get a lot 525 00:19:11,270 - > 00:19:12,570 better, then I'm happy. 526 00:19:13,427 - > 00:19:13,957 I love it. 527 00:19:14,517 - > 00:19:14,937 Okay. 528 00:19:15,227 - > 00:19:19,327 So what I wanna do is take this case study and now 529 00:19:19,327 - > 00:19:20,617 turn it into a playbook. 530 00:19:20,807 - > 00:19:24,497 So, uh, again, just quickly summarizing here, 531 00:19:24,957 - > 00:19:27,627 we're rebuilding the go-to-market function. 532 00:19:28,287 - > 00:19:29,307 No easy feat. 533 00:19:29,786 - > 00:19:33,166 so let's say that I'm a PMM, I just heard your story, 534 00:19:33,216 - > 00:19:36,286 and now you're coaching me on how I can replicate it. 535 00:19:36,586 - > 00:19:40,256 And if I needed to rebuild my go-to-market function 536 00:19:40,616 - > 00:19:44,026 in my company, what is step one What do I need to do 537 00:19:44,026 - > 00:19:44,506 First, 538 00:19:44,805 - > 00:19:46,685 First, put on your - If you have experience, first put on 539 00:19:46,685 - > 00:19:48,845 your humble hat, is the best place I would start, and then 540 00:19:48,845 - > 00:19:50,055 start gathering information. 541 00:19:50,335 - > 00:19:51,115 Uh, because again, if you 542 00:19:51,115 - > 00:19:53,485 walk in as that person that I know how to fix 543 00:19:53,485 - > 00:19:56,025 everything, you're gonna get the same response that 544 00:19:56,025 - > 00:19:56,605 most people do. 545 00:19:57,085 - > 00:19:59,915 But understand where are we now, where do we wanna 546 00:19:59,915 - > 00:20:03,465 be, what's been, been successful, what's not been 547 00:20:03,465 - > 00:20:06,505 successful, what does good look like is one of the 548 00:20:06,505 - > 00:20:07,695 things I always go back to. 549 00:20:08,115 - > 00:20:11,405 And how do we - everything we do when it comes to 550 00:20:11,405 - > 00:20:13,215 the go-to-market and the launch change, how 551 00:20:13,215 - > 00:20:16,255 does that end up driving or impacting or benefiting 552 00:20:16,345 - > 00:20:18,755 revenue or preventing revenue leakage? 553 00:20:18,875 - > 00:20:19,595 You know, we're looking at churn. 554 00:20:19,845 - > 00:20:21,375 So start there. 555 00:20:22,005 - > 00:20:23,115 Who are my stakeholders? 556 00:20:23,115 - > 00:20:24,065 Who needs to be involved? 557 00:20:24,065 - > 00:20:25,185 Who should I talk to? 558 00:20:25,615 - > 00:20:26,545 Be data-driven. 559 00:20:26,545 - > 00:20:29,385 I mean, and understand what's happened well in the past. 560 00:20:29,735 - > 00:20:31,995 If hopefully your CRM is halfway decent, you can dig 561 00:20:31,995 - > 00:20:34,685 into your CRM information or at least get some kind 562 00:20:34,685 - > 00:20:38,005 of a launch details back and use that to plan the future. 563 00:20:38,798 - > 00:20:39,128 Got it. 564 00:20:39,168 - > 00:20:39,508 Okay. 565 00:20:39,748 - > 00:20:42,458 So step one is to get this state of the 566 00:20:42,458 - > 00:20:44,578 union Dig into the data. 567 00:20:44,578 - > 00:20:46,028 gather information. 568 00:20:46,403 - > 00:20:46,623 is there 569 00:20:46,623 - > 00:20:48,443 anything specific that you're looking for? 570 00:20:48,443 - > 00:20:50,403 I think you mentioned a couple of things, but are there 571 00:20:50,403 - > 00:20:53,503 like specific measurements or signals that you could 572 00:20:53,503 - > 00:20:54,433 be looking for that would 573 00:20:54,433 - > 00:20:58,303 specifically help you identify like what's broken 574 00:20:58,303 - > 00:20:59,603 within a like go-to-market 575 00:20:59,603 - > 00:21:00,083 function? 576 00:21:00,083 - > 00:21:00,263 Like 577 00:21:00,381 - > 00:21:02,251 Let's take a tier one launch as a good example. 578 00:21:02,491 - > 00:21:04,671 Um, so we have a tier one launch, which in, in our 579 00:21:04,671 - > 00:21:06,041 case, it's a big launch. 580 00:21:06,041 - > 00:21:07,051 We're doing big things. 581 00:21:07,051 - > 00:21:08,261 We're gonna make a lot of noise, a lot 582 00:21:08,261 - > 00:21:09,191 of assets behind that. 583 00:21:09,791 - > 00:21:12,401 And we do this big launch, maybe we do a webinar, we do 584 00:21:12,401 - > 00:21:15,561 some lead activity, but then we look back at the leads 585 00:21:15,561 - > 00:21:17,711 that have come in and the, the, the awareness that have 586 00:21:17,711 - > 00:21:19,411 come in and the click-throughs that have come in after that. 587 00:21:19,931 - > 00:21:21,281 And if the, if the numbers are 588 00:21:21,281 - > 00:21:23,691 low, and of course, metrics are going to be defined by 589 00:21:23,691 - > 00:21:24,261 a lot of different things. 590 00:21:24,841 - > 00:21:27,931 If the numbers are low, but we had a really big deal we 591 00:21:27,931 - > 00:21:30,118 tried to make, then something got missed. 592 00:21:30,118 - > 00:21:31,858 So that's where looking at the data is like we tried to... 593 00:21:32,438 - > 00:21:34,678 We made - This was a powerful solution, but we didn't do 594 00:21:34,678 - > 00:21:39,308 a good job of engaging the market before and after the 595 00:21:39,308 - > 00:21:40,588 commercial part of the launch. 596 00:21:40,988 - > 00:21:42,058 We missed something. 597 00:21:42,168 - > 00:21:43,758 So that's one of the places you can look at for 598 00:21:43,758 - > 00:21:45,473 data is, did it resonate? 599 00:21:46,446 - > 00:21:47,736 we excited launch 600 00:21:48,076 - > 00:21:49,826 and was the market excited to hear about it? 601 00:21:50,249 - > 00:21:50,729 Yeah. 602 00:21:50,849 - > 00:21:51,179 Yeah. 603 00:21:51,509 - > 00:21:52,259 Good one to call out. 604 00:21:52,509 - > 00:21:52,829 Okay. 605 00:21:52,829 - > 00:21:54,249 So again, quick recap. 606 00:21:54,249 - > 00:21:55,749 Step one, gather the data. 607 00:21:56,269 - > 00:21:56,929 what's step two? 608 00:21:57,051 - > 00:21:57,576 make sure that. 609 00:21:57,641 - > 00:21:59,461 your product marketers and your product managers 610 00:21:59,461 - > 00:22:00,341 are hand-in-hand. 611 00:22:00,747 - > 00:22:02,097 they don't have to be best friends, but they 612 00:22:02,097 - > 00:22:04,177 should be very much embedded, be, be aligned. 613 00:22:04,567 - > 00:22:07,167 Uh, make sure they know what - You do this, and I do... 614 00:22:07,167 - > 00:22:10,077 Here's where my job, I hate to say job stops, but here's 615 00:22:10,077 - > 00:22:12,377 where I stop being involved, and I hand it off to you. 616 00:22:12,807 - > 00:22:16,717 Uh, clarify again that product marketing/marketing should own 617 00:22:16,717 - > 00:22:17,757 the commercial part of this. 618 00:22:17,757 - > 00:22:18,497 Make sure that we're the ones 619 00:22:18,497 - > 00:22:21,954 that- That say, "Yes, ready to go." and you absolutely have 620 00:22:21,954 - > 00:22:23,744 to be involving, involving 621 00:22:23,744 - > 00:22:24,234 sales. 622 00:22:24,234 - > 00:22:26,824 And by that mean, by that I mean they are 623 00:22:26,824 - > 00:22:28,324 educated, they're aware. 624 00:22:28,704 - > 00:22:30,674 You don't launch something, then sales goes, "Oh, 625 00:22:30,674 - > 00:22:32,364 hey, what, what's the pricing on this?" 626 00:22:32,364 - > 00:22:34,404 Or, "What's the messaging?" Or, "Who's the audience?" 627 00:22:34,824 - > 00:22:37,244 Uh, make sure that they're involved in all that, and 628 00:22:37,244 - > 00:22:38,494 have an executive sponsor. 629 00:22:38,674 - > 00:22:41,084 That is one of the most key things so that that way 630 00:22:41,084 - > 00:22:43,884 it's not just the product marketer saying this, it's 631 00:22:43,884 - > 00:22:46,404 the person sponsoring saying, "I'm sponsoring this launch. 632 00:22:47,074 - > 00:22:48,974 We've got to get in line here and get things successful." 633 00:22:49,143 - > 00:22:49,403 Yep. 634 00:22:49,807 - > 00:22:52,007 I love Essentially what it sounds like you're saying 635 00:22:52,007 - > 00:22:53,987 is establish or reestablish 636 00:22:53,987 - > 00:22:56,157 the product marketing charter. 637 00:22:56,697 - > 00:23:00,267 So I have had to do this before, and 638 00:23:00,997 - > 00:23:03,395 w- I - This is so So I did it at Cisco. 639 00:23:03,395 - > 00:23:04,865 Cisco obviously has been around for a long time. 640 00:23:04,865 - > 00:23:07,675 There were product marketing teams ahead that, that were 641 00:23:07,780 - > 00:23:08,849 this portfolio ahead of me. 642 00:23:09,299 - > 00:23:11,529 But when I presented the draft 643 00:23:11,659 - > 00:23:14,379 of a charter, before I socialized it outwards, 644 00:23:14,379 - > 00:23:19,134 I had product leaders The VP directors, right? 645 00:23:19,984 - > 00:23:23,914 That I wanted see my first draft charter before I 646 00:23:23,914 - > 00:23:25,394 socialized it even to my team. 647 00:23:26,004 - > 00:23:29,204 And they, they had some feedback, but like overall 648 00:23:29,204 - > 00:23:30,844 they were like, "We've never seen something 649 00:23:30,844 - > 00:23:31,914 like this before. 650 00:23:31,914 - > 00:23:34,184 Like, we love this." And I think it's because 651 00:23:34,184 - > 00:23:36,474 they're like, "Yes, product marketing is collaborating. 652 00:23:36,474 - > 00:23:38,164 Yes, of course, we want you to have a seat 653 00:23:38,164 - > 00:23:40,514 at the table." We just... You know, I think so. 654 00:23:40,514 - > 00:23:41,724 It's so interesting. 655 00:23:41,824 - > 00:23:42,984 I, I'm glad that you mentioned it, 656 00:23:43,014 - > 00:23:45,644 I guess is what I'm saying, because they - It's not that 657 00:23:45,644 - > 00:23:49,064 they want to exclude product marketing, but just someone 658 00:23:49,064 - > 00:23:53,194 to come in and really like own the, uh, function, I 659 00:23:53,194 - > 00:23:55,234 think is actually something that your PM will appreciate. 660 00:23:55,704 - > 00:23:57,073 Um, there. 661 00:23:57,473 - > 00:23:57,753 Okay. 662 00:23:57,983 - > 00:24:01,243 So now we've got the, we've gathered the information. 663 00:24:01,243 - > 00:24:04,433 You have your, you know, people and team alignment. 664 00:24:04,433 - > 00:24:05,923 That was, you know, your step two. 665 00:24:06,333 - > 00:24:09,102 So let's skip to step three, like what's next? 666 00:24:09,102 - > 00:24:10,592 We talked about the tiers, and then we, we, 667 00:24:10,652 - > 00:24:11,592 I'll just, just jumping. 668 00:24:11,592 - > 00:24:13,052 We only, we did a three-tier level. 669 00:24:13,402 - > 00:24:14,182 I've seen three, 670 00:24:14,182 - > 00:24:17,013 four, and five and, however, however works for 671 00:24:17,013 - > 00:24:17,773 that particular company. 672 00:24:17,773 - > 00:24:20,203 We only did three, and then we narrowed down, you 673 00:24:20,203 - > 00:24:21,413 know, one is the biggest. 674 00:24:21,413 - > 00:24:22,713 And here's, we do all these stuff. 675 00:24:22,713 - > 00:24:25,463 We listed out what went in there, what kind of assets. 676 00:24:25,463 - > 00:24:26,933 Right now we're continuing to build that out. 677 00:24:26,933 - > 00:24:28,703 I've got members of my team that are helping to build out, 678 00:24:29,223 - > 00:24:30,733 you know, here's an example of the assets that we're gonna 679 00:24:30,733 - > 00:24:33,253 use for a tier one and for a tier two and for a tier three. 680 00:24:33,713 - > 00:24:36,093 Um, and by the way, I'm taking... I forget which 681 00:24:36,093 - > 00:24:38,243 guest it was you had that talked about social swarming, 682 00:24:38,863 - > 00:24:40,443 um, in the launch process. 683 00:24:40,953 - > 00:24:42,613 I'm taking that idea and I'm building that into 684 00:24:42,613 - > 00:24:43,323 stuff that we're doing. 685 00:24:43,323 - > 00:24:44,213 So see? 686 00:24:44,303 - > 00:24:45,543 You, you bring value all around. 687 00:24:46,194 - > 00:24:49,644 And so the, the way I looked at the 30-60-90 again is, and 688 00:24:49,644 - > 00:24:51,684 the, the way I kind of joked with you earlier in our prep 689 00:24:51,684 - > 00:24:53,574 was looking at how NASA works. 690 00:24:53,574 - > 00:24:56,084 I mean, NASA doesn't just, you know, have a l- rocket 691 00:24:56,084 - > 00:24:58,684 launched off to the moon and then walk out of the building 692 00:24:58,684 - > 00:24:59,354 and say, "We're done for 693 00:24:59,354 - > 00:25:00,554 the week." they gotta stay 694 00:25:00,554 - > 00:25:00,974 engaged. 695 00:25:00,974 - > 00:25:02,414 So if we don't do a 696 00:25:02,414 - > 00:25:04,054 good job of making sure that once we 697 00:25:04,054 - > 00:25:07,304 launch this amazing product or feature or solution to the 698 00:25:07,304 - > 00:25:09,894 market and keep in touch with the 699 00:25:09,894 - > 00:25:11,374 audience out there, then we're 700 00:25:11,374 - > 00:25:12,404 not doing a very good job. 701 00:25:12,404 - > 00:25:15,444 and so the structure with that, that, that 30-60-90, 702 00:25:15,834 - > 00:25:16,514 I think will make a big 703 00:25:16,514 - > 00:25:16,984 difference 704 00:25:16,984 - > 00:25:17,514 in 705 00:25:18,124 - > 00:25:21,424 ongoing flows and engagement and nurture, but not 706 00:25:21,424 - > 00:25:24,524 just what happens to drive the, the 707 00:25:24,524 - > 00:25:26,784 interest of the prospect, but us getting feedback. 708 00:25:27,334 - > 00:25:28,104 You know, we're putting messages 709 00:25:28,104 - > 00:25:30,454 out there And we check into that 30 days in. 710 00:25:30,454 - > 00:25:31,314 60 days in. 711 00:25:31,374 - > 00:25:31,704 Is it 712 00:25:31,704 - > 00:25:32,224 resonating? 713 00:25:32,814 - > 00:25:33,054 All right. 714 00:25:33,314 - > 00:25:34,834 What, what feedback do we take back 715 00:25:34,834 - > 00:25:35,294 in? 716 00:25:35,524 - > 00:25:36,504 And again, now we're feeding that, doing 717 00:25:36,504 - > 00:25:36,644 that. 718 00:25:36,644 - > 00:25:39,604 feedback loop back up to say, "This went well. 719 00:25:39,604 - > 00:25:40,174 This needs to be 720 00:25:40,174 - > 00:25:40,484 tweaked 721 00:25:40,484 - > 00:25:43,294 going forward." So it's really trying to create 722 00:25:43,324 - > 00:25:45,463 a, a, a, a framework and a feedback 723 00:25:45,463 - > 00:25:45,673 loop. 724 00:25:45,812 - > 00:25:45,922 I 725 00:25:45,922 - > 00:25:47,332 love your rocket analogy. 726 00:25:47,482 - > 00:25:50,422 Like, you don't just, like, send it off into space and 727 00:25:50,422 - > 00:25:53,402 be like, "All right, cool launch. See you later." 728 00:25:53,622 - > 00:25:53,822 Yeah, 729 00:25:54,582 - > 00:25:55,072 you measure the, 730 00:25:55,462 - > 00:25:58,302 you know, the orbit stability and the fuel, 731 00:25:58,302 - > 00:26:00,622 and you track trajectory. 732 00:26:00,622 - > 00:26:04,792 Like, that's all your 30/60/90 or, or 90/60/30, 30/60/90. 733 00:26:05,032 - > 00:26:05,602 And I love that. 734 00:26:05,602 - > 00:26:09,502 it's spread out like that because so many PMMs launch 735 00:26:09,502 - > 00:26:11,102 it, and then they're like just onto the next one. 736 00:26:11,942 - > 00:26:14,902 And by doing the feedback, you get better, you improve, 737 00:26:14,902 - > 00:26:17,412 you figure out how to tweak things, whether it's messaging 738 00:26:17,412 - > 00:26:19,202 or even product roadmap items. 739 00:26:19,725 - > 00:26:20,935 So I love that. 740 00:26:21,201 - > 00:26:23,311 Going back to leadership, and I've been doing that, uh, 741 00:26:23,311 - > 00:26:24,421 just in the last few weeks. 742 00:26:24,421 - > 00:26:26,451 I've been presenting to the chief operating officer. 743 00:26:26,451 - > 00:26:27,921 I'm presenting to the chief of staff, I think, 744 00:26:27,921 - > 00:26:28,521 next week. 745 00:26:28,973 - > 00:26:31,123 the chief commercial officer, just kind of making sure they 746 00:26:31,123 - > 00:26:32,253 understand what's going on. 747 00:26:32,823 - > 00:26:34,683 Tried to do some of this before this all 748 00:26:34,683 - > 00:26:36,913 happened, and there was some email communication, 749 00:26:36,913 - > 00:26:39,103 but just schedules, end of year budgeting 750 00:26:39,463 - > 00:26:39,983 didn't happen. 751 00:26:39,983 - > 00:26:41,619 so if I had a recommendation for a 752 00:26:41,619 - > 00:26:44,559 PMM, ideally do it before you implement the major 753 00:26:44,559 - > 00:26:45,899 change as opposed to after. 754 00:26:46,279 - > 00:26:47,189 This was situational. 755 00:26:47,703 - > 00:26:49,343 you know, feedback always important. 756 00:26:49,623 - > 00:26:52,563 We had the buy-in from pretty much everybody that 757 00:26:52,563 - > 00:26:53,563 was part of the process. 758 00:26:53,563 - > 00:26:54,303 That was very important. 759 00:26:54,303 - > 00:26:56,663 Again, having a very good partner, it made a big 760 00:26:56,663 - > 00:26:57,373 difference with that. 761 00:26:57,843 - > 00:26:58,833 Uh, and just making 762 00:26:58,833 - > 00:27:01,203 sure people continue to understand that we 763 00:27:01,203 - > 00:27:02,093 have to let some things 764 00:27:02,093 - > 00:27:04,383 run for a bit before we start making any changes. 765 00:27:04,483 - > 00:27:06,513 So as opposed to saying, "Well, it's 766 00:27:06,513 - > 00:27:08,798 not working right." it's, we're on month two. 767 00:27:08,798 - > 00:27:10,568 You know, we just started 768 00:27:10,568 - > 00:27:10,868 this 769 00:27:11,570 - > 00:27:11,860 Yeah. 770 00:27:11,890 - > 00:27:13,850 you're not even in the full 90 days of your... 771 00:27:14,277 - > 00:27:14,427 Yeah. 772 00:27:15,137 - > 00:27:15,527 Yeah. 773 00:27:15,920 - > 00:27:18,720 You gotta give it time, see if it's working. 774 00:27:19,400 - > 00:27:20,110 Okay, I love that. 775 00:27:20,110 - > 00:27:22,570 You socialize it, you start to gather feedback. 776 00:27:22,635 - > 00:27:24,686 so and then step five. 777 00:27:24,686 - > 00:27:25,466 Is there a step five 778 00:27:25,503 - > 00:27:25,763 Go. 779 00:27:25,941 - > 00:27:26,431 just go. 780 00:27:26,431 - > 00:27:28,341 And, and it, it... And I, I'm being a little 781 00:27:28,341 - > 00:27:32,061 flippant, but go And making sure that we tell all the 782 00:27:32,061 - > 00:27:33,701 people that are involved in the... Oh, sorry, the 783 00:27:33,701 - > 00:27:34,671 people, the teams that are 784 00:27:34,671 - > 00:27:37,781 involved in this, you know, is, is pre-sales feeling like, 785 00:27:37,781 - > 00:27:39,411 "Okay, cool, we're now getting 786 00:27:39,411 - > 00:27:42,251 information ahead of time that we weren't getting before, so 787 00:27:42,251 - > 00:27:45,111 now we can do a better job of supporting sales and getting 788 00:27:45,111 - > 00:27:47,501 demos set up." you know, does sales feel like they've 789 00:27:47,501 - > 00:27:48,721 got their talk tracks ready? 790 00:27:48,721 - > 00:27:50,971 Does customer service feel like they can be 791 00:27:50,971 - > 00:27:52,761 able to answer questions that, are coming in? 792 00:27:53,171 - > 00:27:55,841 You know, are the PMMs and the PMMs... That's a lot 793 00:27:55,841 - > 00:27:57,601 of Ps. PMs and the PMMs 794 00:27:57,601 - > 00:27:59,011 feeling like they're working together? 795 00:27:59,341 - > 00:28:00,591 Are we getting that feedback loop? 796 00:28:00,741 - > 00:28:01,641 Uh, and just go. 797 00:28:01,851 - > 00:28:04,291 and you know, for the product marketers listening 798 00:28:04,291 - > 00:28:06,081 to this, you know, if you're a company of 799 00:28:06,081 - > 00:28:08,731 100, you may not need to put together a launch council. 800 00:28:08,781 - > 00:28:11,891 It may just have to be you and your PM and a couple 801 00:28:11,891 - > 00:28:12,591 of people and get it 802 00:28:12,591 - > 00:28:12,911 go. 803 00:28:13,381 - > 00:28:14,311 Larger companies, 804 00:28:14,311 - > 00:28:16,771 I do recommend a launch, a launch council because 805 00:28:16,771 - > 00:28:18,761 you've got a lot more, 806 00:28:19,141 - > 00:28:21,201 you know, just hurdles to go through, a lot more people to 807 00:28:21,201 - > 00:28:23,731 be bought into that so having that, and especially that 808 00:28:23,731 - > 00:28:25,151 executive sponsorship, makes 809 00:28:25,151 - > 00:28:25,791 a big difference. 810 00:28:26,115 - > 00:28:26,375 Yeah. 811 00:28:26,925 - > 00:28:28,905 A quick question about the executive, or sorry, 812 00:28:28,905 - > 00:28:30,125 for the launch council. 813 00:28:30,435 - > 00:28:31,785 How often do you meet? 814 00:28:31,785 - > 00:28:32,725 Who's in it? 815 00:28:32,755 - > 00:28:33,515 And like what kind of 816 00:28:33,515 - > 00:28:34,265 decisions do they 817 00:28:34,265 - > 00:28:34,585 own? 818 00:28:34,851 - > 00:28:37,271 it's... The, as far as own it is, who is 819 00:28:37,271 - > 00:28:39,343 on it in our case, is 820 00:28:39,343 - > 00:28:41,063 the, the, the person who's the product 821 00:28:41,063 - > 00:28:43,783 manager for that particular item, the, uh, 822 00:28:43,783 - > 00:28:44,873 segment leader for that 823 00:28:44,873 - > 00:28:46,203 particular... W- whoever this 824 00:28:46,203 - > 00:28:47,673 had the most impact in the segment. 825 00:28:48,003 - > 00:28:50,145 Obviously, the product marketer, the head, the 826 00:28:50,145 - > 00:28:51,145 head of pre-sales for that 827 00:28:51,145 - > 00:28:51,855 particular segment. 828 00:28:51,855 - > 00:28:53,005 So anybody who is going to 829 00:28:53,005 - > 00:28:56,235 be most directly commercially impacted 830 00:28:56,235 - > 00:28:57,785 by the launch is involved. 831 00:28:58,155 - > 00:29:01,405 Uh, the product product management officer, the person 832 00:29:01,405 - > 00:29:03,175 who basically is coordinating all the craziness, 833 00:29:03,615 - > 00:29:07,175 um, from the... More the, the tick box as opposed to the 834 00:29:07,175 - > 00:29:09,515 product marketer who com- who mana- manages the commercial 835 00:29:09,515 - > 00:29:10,005 part of that. 836 00:29:10,479 - > 00:29:11,549 I sit in on some of them. 837 00:29:11,579 - > 00:29:11,679 I 838 00:29:11,679 - > 00:29:13,629 try not to 'cause I want my product marketers 839 00:29:13,629 - > 00:29:14,449 to be the owners of 840 00:29:14,449 - > 00:29:14,659 those 841 00:29:14,659 - > 00:29:15,039 things. 842 00:29:15,389 - > 00:29:16,579 You know, they're the owners of their world. 843 00:29:17,059 - > 00:29:19,582 Uh, and How often do they meet is 844 00:29:19,582 - > 00:29:21,992 kind of evolving at this point. 845 00:29:22,383 - > 00:29:25,373 it's sort of a check-in sometimes, and they... 846 00:29:25,813 - > 00:29:27,593 Again, from the... What they're deciding on 847 00:29:27,593 - > 00:29:28,953 is, are we ready to go? 848 00:29:29,134 - > 00:29:30,284 have we, have we ticked the 849 00:29:30,284 - > 00:29:30,744 boxes? 850 00:29:30,744 - > 00:29:31,184 Do we have what 851 00:29:31,184 - > 00:29:31,784 we need? 852 00:29:32,154 - > 00:29:32,384 If we 853 00:29:32,384 - > 00:29:34,564 haven't done so, then again, that's where you have 854 00:29:34,564 - > 00:29:36,594 the, you know, the, the, the, leaders on there say, 855 00:29:37,124 - > 00:29:38,254 "Hey, get this stuff done. 856 00:29:38,304 - > 00:29:40,964 You, you, you are responsible and accountable to move 857 00:29:40,964 - > 00:29:41,964 these things forward. 858 00:29:42,654 - > 00:29:43,634 What's the roadblocks? 859 00:29:43,634 - > 00:29:44,254 How do we eliminate 860 00:29:44,254 - > 00:29:44,554 those?" 861 00:29:45,229 - > 00:29:45,639 Yep. 862 00:29:46,159 - > 00:29:50,883 And then, all of that, I'm curious, you mentioned earlier 863 00:29:50,883 - > 00:29:53,923 on in our conversation, you dropped like a, a hint 864 00:29:53,923 - > 00:29:56,873 about PRDs and your team coming in and to reshape 865 00:29:56,873 - > 00:29:59,293 them, and obviously your book is coming out, "So 866 00:29:59,293 - > 00:30:02,783 What, Why, Who Cares?" Uh, can you talk a little bit 867 00:30:02,783 - > 00:30:05,968 about how so what, why, who cares changed some of those 868 00:30:05,968 - > 00:30:08,348 conversations, like whether inside the product launch 869 00:30:08,348 - > 00:30:11,038 council or not, but how did the so what, why, who cares 870 00:30:11,298 - > 00:30:12,728 change some of those internal 871 00:30:12,728 - > 00:30:13,768 conversations? 872 00:30:13,864 - > 00:30:14,604 Yeah, definitely. 873 00:30:14,604 - > 00:30:15,624 And that's - It's been 874 00:30:15,827 - > 00:30:16,037 really 875 00:30:16,037 - > 00:30:17,117 kind of fun to watch that 876 00:30:17,117 - > 00:30:18,097 evolution happen. 877 00:30:18,267 - > 00:30:20,827 It's still it's still a work in progress, but 878 00:30:20,827 - > 00:30:23,927 in-instead of always having PRDs come in that were just 879 00:30:23,957 - > 00:30:24,367 a 880 00:30:24,737 - > 00:30:27,997 feature function, technical dump written as a 881 00:30:27,997 - > 00:30:29,317 product manager is going to write. 882 00:30:29,317 - > 00:30:30,827 And again, there's no criticism at all in there. 883 00:30:30,827 - > 00:30:32,107 It's just how, that's how they think and how 884 00:30:32,107 - > 00:30:32,637 they write. 885 00:30:33,377 - > 00:30:35,167 But because we didn't have 886 00:30:35,167 - > 00:30:38,357 as much early collaboration back, back then between 887 00:30:38,357 - > 00:30:38,957 the product manager and 888 00:30:38,957 - > 00:30:41,267 the product marketer, what came out of the PRD 889 00:30:41,267 - > 00:30:43,917 was sort of mildly massaged and 890 00:30:43,917 - > 00:30:44,247 turned into 891 00:30:44,247 - > 00:30:44,647 messaging. 892 00:30:45,277 - > 00:30:47,737 Now, with the So What, Why, Who Cares framework that 893 00:30:47,737 - > 00:30:47,797 the 894 00:30:47,797 - > 00:30:50,197 product marketers are using, they're translating 895 00:30:50,197 - > 00:30:50,927 that much better 896 00:30:50,927 - > 00:30:51,627 into 897 00:30:51,657 - > 00:30:52,857 outcome-based messaging. 898 00:30:53,417 - > 00:30:55,207 But my product leader is also very 899 00:30:55,207 - > 00:30:57,037 comfortable with me going back to the product 900 00:30:57,037 - > 00:30:59,037 management team and saying, "Here's how we think. 901 00:30:59,037 - > 00:31:00,287 Here's how product marketers like to 902 00:31:00,287 - > 00:31:01,197 understand messaging," 903 00:31:01,627 - > 00:31:04,859 so that what they take and put into the PRD is 904 00:31:05,069 - > 00:31:07,349 pre-messaging prepped, for lack of a better word. 905 00:31:07,349 - > 00:31:10,009 And they're think It does this. 906 00:31:10,009 - > 00:31:10,459 Okay, cool. 907 00:31:10,679 - > 00:31:12,259 So what that it does that? 908 00:31:12,639 - > 00:31:13,029 And 909 00:31:13,769 - > 00:31:15,719 think that's - Again, we're not there yet. 910 00:31:15,719 - > 00:31:17,519 We're making progress, for sure. 911 00:31:17,987 - > 00:31:20,527 and it's just helped them, helped the product managers 912 00:31:20,527 - > 00:31:25,129 to be more aware that you have to focus it on is what a 913 00:31:25,129 - > 00:31:29,259 confused prospect might want to understand, not what we 914 00:31:29,459 - > 00:31:31,059 as informed technical people 915 00:31:31,229 - > 00:31:31,539 understand. 916 00:31:32,416 - > 00:31:33,186 Yeah, sure. 917 00:31:33,778 - > 00:31:34,168 okay. 918 00:31:34,198 - > 00:31:37,218 So I wanna really quickly recap, uh, what 919 00:31:37,218 - > 00:31:38,158 I think the steps were. 920 00:31:38,158 - > 00:31:40,738 So one is just to gather information, talk to 921 00:31:40,738 - > 00:31:42,148 people, dig into data. 922 00:31:42,148 - > 00:31:46,008 Two was to align the team and make sure everybody's on the 923 00:31:46,008 - > 00:31:47,408 same page about who does what. 924 00:31:47,688 - > 00:31:49,838 Three is apply your launch framework. 925 00:31:49,838 - > 00:31:50,598 That's where the like 926 00:31:51,092 - > 00:31:51,742 90/60/30, 927 00:31:51,742 - > 00:31:55,282 30/60/90 framework and the so what, why, who cares 928 00:31:55,282 - > 00:31:56,112 framework really comes into 929 00:31:56,112 - > 00:31:56,752 play. 930 00:31:57,372 - > 00:31:59,612 And then you socialize it, get feedback, and then 931 00:31:59,612 - > 00:32:00,812 you execute while still 932 00:32:00,812 - > 00:32:01,332 doing 933 00:32:01,612 - > 00:32:02,282 the feedback. 934 00:32:02,672 - > 00:32:03,982 Um, so I love 935 00:32:03,982 - > 00:32:04,262 that. 936 00:32:04,582 - > 00:32:06,472 My last question for you, just for this 937 00:32:06,472 - > 00:32:07,002 segment of the 938 00:32:07,002 - > 00:32:11,302 show, is what advice do you have for, one piece of 939 00:32:11,302 - > 00:32:12,652 advice, so just one, one, one 940 00:32:12,652 - > 00:32:16,572 big takeaway, what is it for a PMM who is rebuilding 941 00:32:16,572 - > 00:32:17,432 the go-to-market function? 942 00:32:18,093 - > 00:32:24,363 Be confident in your knowledge of being customer-facing 943 00:32:25,113 - > 00:32:29,303 because we are the strategic people who don't just come 944 00:32:29,303 - > 00:32:33,183 back and say, "Here is information." We should 945 00:32:33,183 - > 00:32:36,199 be providing insights and recommendations to 946 00:32:36,199 - > 00:32:37,469 give guidance on that. 947 00:32:37,599 - > 00:32:39,769 And by, if I sum- if I try to summarize that 948 00:32:39,769 - > 00:32:44,009 means don't launch just because we think we should. 949 00:32:44,449 - > 00:32:46,769 Launch because there's a reason and a commercial 950 00:32:46,769 - > 00:32:50,389 impact we're gonna have to drive revenue so that we 951 00:32:50,389 - > 00:32:53,699 demonstrate our, our ability to impact revenue decisions. 952 00:32:54,660 - > 00:32:56,450 Mm-hmm, and a lot of that comes from knowing the 953 00:32:56,450 - > 00:32:59,840 business and having that context and understanding the 954 00:32:59,840 - > 00:33:00,790 customer and being really 955 00:33:00,790 - > 00:33:01,920 confident in that. 956 00:33:02,069 - > 00:33:02,259 Yep. 957 00:33:02,920 - > 00:33:03,920 So helpful. 958 00:33:04,500 - > 00:33:05,100 I love it. 959 00:33:05,100 - > 00:33:06,020 Okay, we're wrapping 960 00:33:06,020 - > 00:33:06,490 up the 961 00:33:06,490 - > 00:33:08,870 case study playbook segment of the show, and 962 00:33:08,870 - > 00:33:11,090 now it's time for the next segment of the show, which is 963 00:33:11,090 - > 00:33:11,980 " so fun. 964 00:33:11,980 - > 00:33:13,540 It's the messaging critique. 965 00:33:14,000 - > 00:33:16,660 So this is where, Doug, you and I as 966 00:33:17,030 - > 00:33:20,030 marketing, product marketing experts get to analyze real 967 00:33:20,030 - > 00:33:20,880 world messaging. 968 00:33:21,406 - > 00:33:22,046 the rules of 969 00:33:22,046 - > 00:33:24,899 this are, one, to pick a company that either you 970 00:33:24,899 - > 00:33:26,209 know the target audience really 971 00:33:26,209 - > 00:33:27,099 well or you 972 00:33:27,099 - > 00:33:28,339 are the target audience. 973 00:33:28,719 - > 00:33:30,399 Wouldn't be fair to critique messaging 974 00:33:30,489 - > 00:33:33,019 on a company where we have no idea that, who their target 975 00:33:33,019 - > 00:33:34,059 audience is or what they do. 976 00:33:34,497 - > 00:33:37,207 and then first tell me what stood out to you 977 00:33:37,207 - > 00:33:39,467 about the messaging, what you're loving about it. 978 00:33:39,467 - > 00:33:40,287 Maybe share something y- 979 00:33:40,537 - > 00:33:41,497 that you wish the 980 00:33:41,497 - > 00:33:43,217 PMM would've considered or done differently. 981 00:33:43,247 - > 00:33:45,057 And then finally, we're gonna just brainstorm 982 00:33:45,057 - > 00:33:45,867 a little bit and 983 00:33:46,857 - > 00:33:48,997 give that PMM some good ideas on how they can 984 00:33:48,997 - > 00:33:50,097 take it to the next level. 985 00:33:50,857 - > 00:33:51,957 So without further 986 00:33:51,957 - > 00:33:52,617 ado, yeah, 987 00:33:52,947 - > 00:33:54,117 reveal the company that we 988 00:33:54,117 - > 00:33:54,667 will be 989 00:33:54,787 - > 00:33:55,187 looking at 990 00:33:55,187 - > 00:33:55,397 today. 991 00:33:55,596 - > 00:33:57,566 The company is called, they're called OppTrack, 992 00:33:57,566 - > 00:33:59,026 So O-P-P Track. 993 00:33:59,466 - > 00:34:00,936 Uh, and it's either .com or .io. 994 00:34:00,936 - > 00:34:01,116 I 995 00:34:01,116 - > 00:34:01,766 think it's .com. 996 00:34:02,256 - > 00:34:03,366 And they are 997 00:34:03,776 - > 00:34:04,306 essentially a 998 00:34:04,306 - > 00:34:07,496 win-loss and competitive intelligence smaller 999 00:34:07,606 - > 00:34:08,276 startup company. 1000 00:34:09,096 - > 00:34:11,206 And I picked them. 1001 00:34:11,206 - > 00:34:12,296 for a couple of reasons. 1002 00:34:12,766 - > 00:34:13,986 Definitely I'm the target audience. 1003 00:34:13,986 - > 00:34:16,036 I know a decent amount about win-loss. 1004 00:34:16,116 - > 00:34:17,926 In fact, I just presented at the Austin conference 1005 00:34:17,926 - > 00:34:18,466 about win-loss. 1006 00:34:19,082 - > 00:34:21,142 They reached out to me, which is 1007 00:34:21,142 - > 00:34:22,462 how I became aware of them, 1008 00:34:22,802 - > 00:34:25,842 not to sell me initially, but to gather and 1009 00:34:25,842 - > 00:34:27,312 ask my feedback as a startup. 1010 00:34:27,312 - > 00:34:28,692 So I'm like, "Well, that was kind of an 1011 00:34:28,692 - > 00:34:30,112 interesting way to approach that." So I give them a 1012 00:34:30,112 - > 00:34:31,052 lot of respect for that. 1013 00:34:31,774 - > 00:34:33,464 So is it optrack.io? 1014 00:34:33,464 - > 00:34:35,174 So what I, what I found when I Google searched 1015 00:34:35,174 - > 00:34:36,854 it is O-P, one P, 1016 00:34:37,004 - > 00:34:39,174 O-P-T-R-A-C, 1017 00:34:39,332 - > 00:34:39,602 Yeah, two 1018 00:34:39,602 - > 00:34:43,912 Ps. Yeah, For, for so for, I think Opportunity Track. 1019 00:34:43,912 - > 00:34:44,702 Uh, try opportunity... 1020 00:34:44,732 - > 00:34:45,882 opptrack.com. 1021 00:34:46,684 - > 00:34:47,064 okay. 1022 00:34:47,064 - > 00:34:48,574 So it's optrack.io doesn't work. 1023 00:34:48,644 - > 00:34:50,124 Okay, let me try optrack.com. 1024 00:34:50,694 - > 00:34:52,214 Just for our folks who may wanna follow 1025 00:34:52,214 - > 00:34:54,744 along, um, I found them. 1026 00:34:54,744 - > 00:34:58,314 There they are, O-P-P-T-R-A-C-K.com. 1027 00:34:59,164 - > 00:34:59,564 I found them. 1028 00:34:59,634 - > 00:34:59,934 Okay. 1029 00:35:00,134 - > 00:35:00,384 What 1030 00:35:00,384 - > 00:35:02,854 is standing out to you from their messaging? 1031 00:35:02,942 - > 00:35:03,285 And before 1032 00:35:03,409 - > 00:35:05,449 And before I tell you the goods, I'll have 1033 00:35:05,449 - > 00:35:05,999 to give them also 1034 00:35:05,999 - > 00:35:07,859 credit because during our 1035 00:35:07,859 - > 00:35:09,499 conversations with them, you know, I was looking 1036 00:35:09,499 - > 00:35:10,139 through the tool, I was 1037 00:35:10,269 - > 00:35:11,499 pretty, you know, impressed with what I saw. 1038 00:35:12,169 - > 00:35:13,659 But they also, you know, "What, what do you think?" I'm 1039 00:35:13,659 - > 00:35:15,529 like, "Well," I said, "I'm not sure what you guys do yet." 1040 00:35:16,539 - > 00:35:17,949 And because what they there on their, 1041 00:35:17,949 - > 00:35:21,819 their, their main page before, it was not, wasn't bad, it 1042 00:35:21,819 - > 00:35:24,029 just was very - it was much more technical language. 1043 00:35:24,029 - > 00:35:25,029 So I gave them a bit of feedback. 1044 00:35:25,029 - > 00:35:25,359 So I give them a 1045 00:35:25,359 - > 00:35:25,559 lot of 1046 00:35:25,559 - > 00:35:27,919 credit, and even in the last three or four 1047 00:35:27,919 - > 00:35:28,479 days, they've made 1048 00:35:28,479 - > 00:35:31,479 some changes So what stands out to now open up the 1049 00:35:31,479 - > 00:35:33,189 page, and I've got no 1050 00:35:33,189 - > 00:35:33,789 question what 1051 00:35:33,789 - > 00:35:34,129 they do. 1052 00:35:34,429 - > 00:35:37,619 They do competitive and win-loss for lean go-to-market 1053 00:35:37,619 - > 00:35:38,109 teams. 1054 00:35:38,689 - > 00:35:40,039 Now, I 1055 00:35:40,039 - > 00:35:40,959 don't love that it says 1056 00:35:40,959 - > 00:35:44,709 competitive win-loss agents for lean G- GTM teams, but 1057 00:35:44,709 - > 00:35:46,849 that's just a Doug style thing, 'cause agents could 1058 00:35:46,849 - > 00:35:47,829 be any number of things. 1059 00:35:47,829 - > 00:35:48,399 I know it's probably 1060 00:35:48,399 - > 00:35:49,299 agentic AI, 1061 00:35:49,299 - > 00:35:50,039 et cetera. 1062 00:35:50,109 - > 00:35:50,169 But 1063 00:35:50,170 - > 00:35:50,580 Yeah. 1064 00:35:50,639 - > 00:35:51,199 me a bit of like, 1065 00:35:52,129 - > 00:35:52,419 what does that 1066 00:35:52,419 - > 00:35:52,719 mean? 1067 00:35:53,140 - > 00:35:54,410 Little bit of guessing. 1068 00:35:55,380 - > 00:35:57,380 What's working for me is that they clearly state 1069 00:35:57,380 - > 00:35:59,760 their ICP, like right there 1070 00:35:59,860 - > 00:36:00,395 in the header. 1071 00:36:00,849 - > 00:36:02,859 It, it stands out, and then underneath that it. 1072 00:36:02,859 - > 00:36:05,179 says, you know, what, OpTrack is a win-loss program 1073 00:36:05,179 - > 00:36:06,049 that does... it. 1074 00:36:06,049 - > 00:36:06,719 does certain 1075 00:36:06,719 - > 00:36:08,839 things, and then it tells you the agents 1076 00:36:09,099 - > 00:36:09,699 use these to 1077 00:36:09,699 - > 00:36:11,189 align your messaging, protect deals. 1078 00:36:11,619 - > 00:36:13,509 And again, they've already started, in my mind, 1079 00:36:13,509 - > 00:36:16,119 done some of the so what, why, and who cares in 1080 00:36:16,119 - > 00:36:18,519 there because they've said what it does, who 1081 00:36:18,519 - > 00:36:20,329 it's targeted for, to your point, the ICP. 1082 00:36:20,629 - > 00:36:22,019 It's giving a decent sense 1083 00:36:22,069 - > 00:36:25,469 of, um, alignment with somebody like myself 1084 00:36:25,469 - > 00:36:25,989 who's coming in and 1085 00:36:25,989 - > 00:36:28,809 saying, I'm struggling getting good comp- competitive 1086 00:36:28,809 - > 00:36:29,879 intelligence insights. 1087 00:36:30,149 - > 00:36:32,289 I'm struggling knowing what to do with the win-loss 1088 00:36:32,349 - > 00:36:35,099 details or how to get that." Um, so I like that. 1089 00:36:35,099 - > 00:36:36,689 And the fact that it says agents, when I 1090 00:36:36,689 - > 00:36:39,299 take my anti-AI thought o- off 1091 00:36:39,299 - > 00:36:41,051 hat for a minute, means maybe I don't have 1092 00:36:41,051 - > 00:36:42,041 to do as much work. 1093 00:36:42,041 - > 00:36:43,391 So that's kind of intriguing too. 1094 00:36:43,421 - > 00:36:45,851 But it, it does give me a bit of an intrigue as well 1095 00:36:45,851 - > 00:36:47,661 as a dislike of agents. 1096 00:36:47,661 - > 00:36:48,161 That's just a Doug 1097 00:36:48,161 - > 00:36:48,401 thing. 1098 00:36:48,982 - > 00:36:49,932 Yeah, I get it. 1099 00:36:49,932 - > 00:36:51,462 Yeah, you're like, "I'm willing to look even 1100 00:36:51,462 - > 00:36:54,812 though I'm... got a little bit of suss about anything 1101 00:36:54,812 - > 00:36:56,242 with agents and AI." I get it. 1102 00:36:56,422 - > 00:36:56,612 Okay. 1103 00:36:56,612 - > 00:37:00,642 So what then is - what do you wish the PMM would've 1104 00:37:00,642 - > 00:37:01,672 considered differently? 1105 00:37:01,672 - > 00:37:03,202 I'm gonna guess that it has something to do with 1106 00:37:03,202 - > 00:37:04,162 agents, but maybe not. 1107 00:37:04,282 - > 00:37:04,512 Maybe 1108 00:37:04,512 - > 00:37:04,692 not. 1109 00:37:04,821 - > 00:37:07,281 well, I, I don't know if They have a PM, so that's 1110 00:37:07,281 - > 00:37:08,381 another very good question. 1111 00:37:08,771 - > 00:37:12,327 I, I, think if I, was to, to, rip it apart even more, is to 1112 00:37:12,327 - > 00:37:13,987 tell me some more of the why. 1113 00:37:14,047 - > 00:37:16,377 I mean, they tell me what I can do, which is good, and 1114 00:37:16,377 - > 00:37:19,007 there is a little bit of a why in there, but I'm missing... 1115 00:37:19,467 - > 00:37:20,777 They go from the, the 1116 00:37:20,777 - > 00:37:22,857 what to how it does it, which is 1117 00:37:22,857 - > 00:37:23,437 cool. 1118 00:37:23,727 - > 00:37:25,787 Uh, it's nice to know the behind-the-scenes piece, and 1119 00:37:25,787 - > 00:37:27,067 it's got little diagrams in there. 1120 00:37:27,427 - > 00:37:30,867 But for me, it's also important to know more why 1121 00:37:30,867 - > 00:37:32,917 this resonates with me as a 1122 00:37:32,917 - > 00:37:35,147 person looking for more information about win-loss 1123 00:37:35,147 - > 00:37:36,967 programs to gather all 1124 00:37:36,967 - > 00:37:37,127 that. 1125 00:37:37,157 - > 00:37:40,750 Why is OpTrack better, different, faster, 1126 00:37:40,750 - > 00:37:41,700 stronger, whatever it is, 1127 00:37:41,820 - > 00:37:44,400 more useful than fill in the blank other 1128 00:37:44,400 - > 00:37:46,270 competitive intelligence or win-loss programs? 1129 00:37:46,680 - > 00:37:48,590 Um, that me is really important 1130 00:37:48,590 - > 00:37:48,990 because, uh, 1131 00:37:49,510 - > 00:37:50,580 as I'm sure you've seen, there's a 1132 00:37:50,580 - > 00:37:52,340 lot of people out there doing these 1133 00:37:52,340 - > 00:37:52,870 programs. 1134 00:37:53,890 - > 00:37:55,650 Why, why this one? 1135 00:37:55,970 - > 00:37:57,330 Or why do I add you 1136 00:37:57,330 - > 00:37:58,300 to my tech stack? 1137 00:37:58,300 - > 00:37:59,540 Or why do I replace 1138 00:37:59,720 - > 00:38:00,860 something in my tech stack? 1139 00:38:01,240 - > 00:38:01,970 It would be helpful. 1140 00:38:02,342 - > 00:38:02,682 Yeah. 1141 00:38:03,297 - > 00:38:06,207 Yeah, Yeah, The like com- competitive alternative, 1142 00:38:06,287 - > 00:38:09,107 whether the alternative is a sol- software solution or 1143 00:38:09,107 - > 00:38:10,297 like a spreadsheet, right 1144 00:38:10,727 - > 00:38:13,397 Um, yeah, so I definitely agree with you. 1145 00:38:13,397 - > 00:38:16,347 They do a lot of educating, like education, educating on 1146 00:38:16,347 - > 00:38:20,567 like what their solution is and what it does and what it 1147 00:38:20,567 - > 00:38:23,977 can do, but they don't - I, I'm struggling to see, well, 1148 00:38:23,977 - > 00:38:25,347 what is your differentiator? 1149 00:38:25,887 - > 00:38:28,097 Um, so I, I agree with you. 1150 00:38:28,097 - > 00:38:28,967 I think that's really smart. 1151 00:38:29,007 - > 00:38:29,247 Okay. 1152 00:38:29,247 - > 00:38:31,917 So how can this product marketer or just marketer 1153 00:38:31,997 - > 00:38:35,707 or founder, whoever, how can they take their messaging 1154 00:38:35,707 - > 00:38:36,607 storytelling to the 1155 00:38:36,607 - > 00:38:37,217 next level? 1156 00:38:37,445 - > 00:38:37,845 my book? 1157 00:38:37,845 - > 00:38:38,715 No, sorry, that was too easy. 1158 00:38:39,225 - > 00:38:42,955 Uh, I think taking their, their messaging and 1159 00:38:42,955 - > 00:38:43,715 their, their framework to 1160 00:38:43,715 - > 00:38:45,815 the next level really is to just 1161 00:38:46,350 - > 00:38:48,570 put yourself in your prospect's shoes as 1162 00:38:48,570 - > 00:38:49,740 much as possible. 1163 00:38:50,240 - > 00:38:52,890 Don't make assumptions that they know exactly 1164 00:38:52,890 - > 00:38:53,770 why they're going 1165 00:38:53,770 - > 00:38:54,280 to 1166 00:38:54,660 - > 00:38:55,510 look at your site, 1167 00:38:55,910 - > 00:38:58,690 whether they've come across it through LinkedIn or 1168 00:38:58,690 - > 00:38:59,370 an outreach. 1169 00:39:00,090 - > 00:39:02,470 What, what's gonna make me want to engage? 1170 00:39:02,570 - > 00:39:03,230 So, okay, cool. 1171 00:39:03,230 - > 00:39:04,190 I, I see what you do. 1172 00:39:04,190 - > 00:39:05,010 This is very interesting. 1173 00:39:05,010 - > 00:39:05,470 I see that. 1174 00:39:05,780 - > 00:39:08,790 But again, I go back to the, the why I should care. 1175 00:39:08,790 - > 00:39:09,810 I think they do a decent job of 1176 00:39:09,810 - > 00:39:10,320 nailing the you 1177 00:39:10,320 - > 00:39:11,680 know, the, the persona, like you said, the 1178 00:39:11,680 - > 00:39:13,120 ICP and the what. 1179 00:39:13,330 - > 00:39:15,290 It's just that in-between piece of 1180 00:39:16,310 - > 00:39:18,540 how do I not - how do you not sound like 1181 00:39:18,540 - > 00:39:19,970 every other win-loss 1182 00:39:19,970 - > 00:39:23,130 company out there and give me that 1183 00:39:23,130 - > 00:39:23,890 emotional... 1184 00:39:23,890 - > 00:39:24,220 That's one 1185 00:39:24,220 - > 00:39:26,220 thing I think, there's not a lot of 1186 00:39:26,220 - > 00:39:26,910 emotion in 1187 00:39:26,910 - > 00:39:27,130 here. 1188 00:39:27,130 - > 00:39:28,790 There's not a lot of pain point in here. 1189 00:39:29,350 - > 00:39:31,010 It's, it's very good They, like, They, 1190 00:39:31,010 - > 00:39:32,070 I like the education 1191 00:39:32,070 - > 00:39:32,400 piece, 1192 00:39:32,980 - > 00:39:35,160 but emotion and pain 1193 00:39:35,160 - > 00:39:35,900 point give me. 1194 00:39:35,900 - > 00:39:36,560 urgency. 1195 00:39:37,010 - > 00:39:37,220 you know? 1196 00:39:37,610 - > 00:39:38,790 Create some FOMO in me. 1197 00:39:38,820 - > 00:39:42,150 Like, oh geez, if I don't use this not gonna get access 1198 00:39:42,150 - > 00:39:43,280 to blah, blah, blah, blah. 1199 00:39:43,280 - > 00:39:45,400 Or I can't answer these questions or 1200 00:39:45,610 - > 00:39:47,050 inform my sales teams. 1201 00:39:47,390 - > 00:39:49,860 Make me feel like I'm not a I hate to say that. 1202 00:39:49,860 - > 00:39:50,970 Not that, make me feel I'm not doing a good 1203 00:39:50,970 - > 00:39:51,480 job, but You know, 1204 00:39:51,480 - > 00:39:51,590 what I 1205 00:39:51,590 - > 00:39:51,830 mean. 1206 00:39:52,771 - > 00:39:53,191 Right. 1207 00:39:53,191 - > 00:39:54,511 There's not like a sense of urgency. 1208 00:39:54,511 - > 00:39:56,311 Like there's no sense of urgency. 1209 00:39:56,341 - > 00:39:58,891 no - it doesn't tell me why I need this now. 1210 00:39:58,891 - > 00:40:00,831 It doesn't... Not that they should like, 1211 00:40:01,831 - > 00:40:04,101 you know, invoke anxiety or anything. 1212 00:40:04,101 - > 00:40:06,911 Like you could, you could shoot for another emotion 1213 00:40:06,911 - > 00:40:11,121 like joy or, you know, any, that, that sort of thing. 1214 00:40:11,121 - > 00:40:12,641 So I totally agree with you. 1215 00:40:13,511 - > 00:40:15,901 Um, but overall it looks like, especially after 1216 00:40:15,901 - > 00:40:17,601 conversations that you've had with them, that they're, 1217 00:40:17,711 - > 00:40:19,721 they're continuing to evolve their messaging. 1218 00:40:20,041 - > 00:40:22,271 Um, and just wanted to say like messaging is 1219 00:40:22,271 - > 00:40:24,391 so hard, especially if you don't have a product 1220 00:40:24,391 - > 00:40:26,351 marketer, it is so hard. 1221 00:40:27,020 - > 00:40:27,210 Yeah. 1222 00:40:27,421 - > 00:40:31,311 So, uh, but you know, shout out to OpTrack. 1223 00:40:31,401 - > 00:40:33,921 You know, I think you guys are clearly continuing 1224 00:40:33,921 - > 00:40:35,431 to iterate and, um, it 1225 00:40:35,431 - > 00:40:36,091 looks like you maybe 1226 00:40:36,091 - > 00:40:36,261 have a 1227 00:40:36,261 - > 00:40:36,461 cool 1228 00:40:36,850 - > 00:40:37,020 Yeah. 1229 00:40:37,500 - > 00:40:39,880 it's, I, I've been but they've, they've made changes 1230 00:40:39,880 - > 00:40:41,990 just based on what I've talked to the people too. 1231 00:40:41,990 - > 00:40:43,110 I'm like, "This is pretty good." This, they're 1232 00:40:43,110 - > 00:40:44,010 getting better, so I think 1233 00:40:44,010 - > 00:40:44,250 it's 1234 00:40:44,300 - > 00:40:44,500 good. 1235 00:40:45,131 - > 00:40:45,651 Yeah. 1236 00:40:46,341 - > 00:40:47,341 Keep the evolution going. 1237 00:40:47,341 - > 00:40:49,531 That's where everything, everything just of 1238 00:40:49,531 - > 00:40:50,791 continues to evolve and iterate. 1239 00:40:51,971 - > 00:40:52,511 All right. 1240 00:40:52,511 - > 00:40:55,671 So Doug, I, one thing I always like to do on this 1241 00:40:55,671 - > 00:40:58,251 podcast is leave time for a moment of gratitude 1242 00:40:58,976 - > 00:41:00,926 Because in product marketing, maybe in, in 1243 00:41:00,926 - > 00:41:03,496 just life in general, none of us get here alone. 1244 00:41:03,816 - > 00:41:04,526 We are always 1245 00:41:04,526 - > 00:41:05,116 learning from each 1246 00:41:05,116 - > 00:41:06,876 other and building off of each other's work, 1247 00:41:06,876 - > 00:41:07,656 and we're all better 1248 00:41:07,656 - > 00:41:07,896 for 1249 00:41:07,896 - > 00:41:08,056 it. 1250 00:41:08,286 - > 00:41:09,476 So before we wrap 1251 00:41:09,476 - > 00:41:09,666 up, 1252 00:41:09,696 - > 00:41:11,436 I just wanted to say a genuine thank 1253 00:41:11,436 - > 00:41:13,166 you for your time and insights today, 1254 00:41:13,486 - > 00:41:13,926 um, 1255 00:41:13,926 - > 00:41:16,006 and all the preparation that, you've done for 1256 00:41:16,006 - > 00:41:16,626 the episode today. 1257 00:41:16,626 - > 00:41:17,246 So thank you so 1258 00:41:17,246 - > 00:41:17,566 much. 1259 00:41:17,596 - > 00:41:17,766 Really 1260 00:41:18,045 - > 00:41:18,795 it's been a pleasure. 1261 00:41:18,795 - > 00:41:20,875 I've been looking forward to this, uh, since I 1262 00:41:20,875 - > 00:41:23,185 first listened to your podcast and waved my 1263 00:41:23,185 - > 00:41:24,255 hand at you and you said 1264 00:41:24,255 - > 00:41:24,525 yes. 1265 00:41:24,525 - > 00:41:24,775 I'm like, "Yay, 1266 00:41:25,075 - > 00:41:25,625 this is fun." 1267 00:41:25,966 - > 00:41:26,286 Aw. 1268 00:41:27,036 - > 00:41:27,746 Thank you. 1269 00:41:27,796 - > 00:41:28,256 Thank you. 1270 00:41:28,476 - > 00:41:29,896 So I wanna turn it over to you, though. 1271 00:41:29,896 - > 00:41:32,356 Like, who are some PMMs that you maybe wanna shout 1272 00:41:32,356 - > 00:41:34,676 out who've helped, you know make a real impact on 1273 00:41:34,676 - > 00:41:35,216 your career? 1274 00:41:35,216 - > 00:41:35,355 It's 1275 00:41:35,355 - > 00:41:35,575 Yeah. 1276 00:41:36,135 - > 00:41:38,335 It would be a very long list if I went through them all. 1277 00:41:38,335 - > 00:41:39,625 I'll, I'll focus on two. 1278 00:41:40,165 - > 00:41:42,865 Uh, one is actually the person that inspired me 1279 00:41:42,865 - > 00:41:43,855 with - to write the book 1280 00:41:43,855 - > 00:41:46,245 because he gave me the framework, Prashant Bhatia, 1281 00:41:46,535 - > 00:41:49,335 who I've worked for three times as a VP, as even 1282 00:41:49,335 - > 00:41:52,135 as a CMO, um, really 1283 00:41:52,535 - > 00:41:55,225 upleveled my product marketing abilities, my mindset, my 1284 00:41:55,225 - > 00:41:57,745 thinking, gave me a lot of opportunities to do 1285 00:41:57,745 - > 00:41:58,115 stuff 1286 00:41:58,115 - > 00:41:59,095 that I look back 1287 00:41:59,095 - > 00:42:00,445 now, I'm like, "That was really cool." so 1288 00:42:00,445 - > 00:42:02,515 that was, I mean, a great leader, great 1289 00:42:02,515 - > 00:42:04,975 person, good friend, just very inspirational. 1290 00:42:05,455 - > 00:42:06,975 And then a product marketer who worked for me 1291 00:42:06,975 - > 00:42:07,925 for four years, 1292 00:42:08,315 - > 00:42:09,725 uh, Ian Pittock, based in the 1293 00:42:09,725 - > 00:42:11,175 UK, who - 1294 00:42:12,105 - > 00:42:14,705 I mean, just his style gave me different ways 1295 00:42:14,705 - > 00:42:14,785 to 1296 00:42:14,785 - > 00:42:16,135 think about things and to 1297 00:42:16,135 - > 00:42:18,205 talk about and, and message things. 1298 00:42:18,205 - > 00:42:21,085 So, um, between Prashant and, Ba- and, you know, Ian, 1299 00:42:21,085 - > 00:42:21,965 just two people I 1300 00:42:21,965 - > 00:42:24,805 look back as having really solid impacts on 1301 00:42:24,805 - > 00:42:25,675 my overall 1302 00:42:25,675 - > 00:42:26,615 product marketing journey. 1303 00:42:27,305 - > 00:42:29,565 Um, couple other people, people I wanna call out, 1304 00:42:29,565 - > 00:42:30,675 and I know that she's been called out 1305 00:42:30,675 - > 00:42:31,855 before, but Hattie. 1306 00:42:32,085 - > 00:42:34,105 I mean, reason I wanna call out 1307 00:42:34,105 - > 00:42:36,945 Hattie, she hasn't done as much to inspire 1308 00:42:36,945 - > 00:42:37,095 my 1309 00:42:37,095 - > 00:42:38,775 product marketing journey, but she's doing 1310 00:42:38,775 - > 00:42:39,155 so 1311 00:42:39,155 - > 00:42:40,085 much to inspire 1312 00:42:40,115 - > 00:42:40,565 others. 1313 00:42:41,145 - > 00:42:42,865 I just love that because it's just, 1314 00:42:43,625 - > 00:42:45,155 it's just that giving and helping other 1315 00:42:45,155 - > 00:42:45,495 people get 1316 00:42:45,495 - > 00:42:46,675 better, you know, just as I 1317 00:42:46,736 - > 00:42:46,955 told... 1318 00:42:48,151 - > 00:42:48,976 generosity. 1319 00:42:49,195 - > 00:42:49,395 Yeah. 1320 00:42:49,635 - > 00:42:51,325 And then Michelle, who I'm not gonna try and pronounce. 1321 00:42:51,505 - > 00:42:52,415 Michelle Nieberding, I hope I'm 1322 00:42:52,415 - > 00:42:52,865 saying that. 1323 00:42:53,065 - > 00:42:53,275 Yes. 1324 00:42:53,335 - > 00:42:53,535 Thank you. 1325 00:42:53,945 - > 00:42:57,415 Um, because, uh, again, the stuff she puts out on AI, 1326 00:42:57,415 - > 00:42:59,775 again, that unselfish sharing 1327 00:42:59,775 - > 00:43:01,395 of stuff and information. 1328 00:43:01,625 - > 00:43:04,445 I mean, what she posted about lovable made me 1329 00:43:04,445 - > 00:43:05,515 completely revise my 1330 00:43:05,515 - > 00:43:07,065 website for my book that just - 1331 00:43:07,355 - > 00:43:07,675 I mean, I 1332 00:43:07,675 - > 00:43:09,775 keep saying, every lovable just blows me 1333 00:43:09,775 - > 00:43:10,255 away. 1334 00:43:11,015 - > 00:43:14,355 Without her making about that, I would probably spend a few 1335 00:43:14,355 - > 00:43:17,625 hundred, probably $1,000 on a website that I'm now, because 1336 00:43:17,625 - > 00:43:17,735 of 1337 00:43:17,735 - > 00:43:20,465 her sharing as a product marketer to make other 1338 00:43:20,636 - > 00:43:20,946 Yeah. 1339 00:43:21,105 - > 00:43:21,465 better. 1340 00:43:22,515 - > 00:43:22,675 Yeah. 1341 00:43:23,165 - > 00:43:23,465 And, 1342 00:43:24,245 - > 00:43:25,565 oh, And at the risk of being 1343 00:43:25,565 - > 00:43:27,925 self-serving, this lady named Elle. 1344 00:43:30,525 - > 00:43:31,515 I mean, again, I've listened to 1345 00:43:31,515 - > 00:43:33,065 your pod- I, sorry. 1346 00:43:33,065 - > 00:43:33,175 I 1347 00:43:33,175 - > 00:43:33,885 mean that sincerely. 1348 00:43:33,885 - > 00:43:35,445 I've listened to your podcasts, and again, 1349 00:43:35,445 - > 00:43:36,275 you're doing something 1350 00:43:36,275 - > 00:43:36,505 that, 1351 00:43:37,035 - > 00:43:39,095 again, just helps other product marketers, other 1352 00:43:39,095 - > 00:43:40,505 growth marketers out there to get better, 1353 00:43:40,505 - > 00:43:41,845 so thank you. 1354 00:43:42,255 - > 00:43:43,045 That's the goal. 1355 00:43:43,165 - > 00:43:43,755 That's the goal. 1356 00:43:43,895 - > 00:43:47,035 If it's, um, you know, truly gives joy, and I think, 1357 00:43:47,105 - > 00:43:49,015 I don't want to speak for Hattie and Michelle, but, 1358 00:43:49,445 - > 00:43:52,125 um, ha- both of them have been guests on the show. 1359 00:43:52,325 - > 00:43:52,645 Um, 1360 00:43:52,835 - > 00:43:53,205 Michelle's 1361 00:43:53,205 - > 00:43:55,215 episode's not out yet, but it will be soon. 1362 00:43:55,665 - > 00:43:59,335 Um, having met with both of them multiple times, 1363 00:43:59,335 - > 00:44:01,855 they're just, they're so generous, and, you know, 1364 00:44:01,855 - > 00:44:04,145 just the kind of people that you wanna work with. 1365 00:44:04,295 - > 00:44:07,325 Like, and I, I'm probably, probably the other folks 1366 00:44:07,325 - > 00:44:08,935 that you mentioned that you gave shout-outs to 1367 00:44:08,935 - > 00:44:09,865 are probably similar, 1368 00:44:10,175 - > 00:44:11,595 like, like-minded people, you know? 1369 00:44:12,395 - > 00:44:13,435 We tend to find each other in 1370 00:44:13,435 - > 00:44:13,845 circles. 1371 00:44:14,024 - > 00:44:15,084 Content good 1372 00:44:15,355 - > 00:44:18,325 Okay, my last, yeah, my last question for you is 1373 00:44:18,325 - > 00:44:20,165 where can we continue to access your expertise? 1374 00:44:20,165 - > 00:44:21,255 Is LinkedIn best? 1375 00:44:21,255 - > 00:44:21,595 Anywhere 1376 00:44:21,713 - > 00:44:23,473 LinkedIn is probably - I mean, I'd love to 1377 00:44:23,473 - > 00:44:24,233 connect with anybody. 1378 00:44:24,233 - > 00:44:25,943 Always happy to have LinkedIn chats there. 1379 00:44:25,973 - > 00:44:29,003 And then my website, sowhatwhywhocares.com. 1380 00:44:29,443 - > 00:44:31,793 Um, I'm gonna continue to build my portfolio and 1381 00:44:31,793 - > 00:44:34,753 updates in the book and just share fun stories. 1382 00:44:35,453 - > 00:44:36,153 I love that. 1383 00:44:36,613 - > 00:44:37,953 Again, thank you so much, Doug. 1384 00:44:38,391 - > 00:44:40,651 Yeah, and hey, PMM listeners, if you like 1385 00:44:40,651 - > 00:44:42,681 this episode, please share it with a PMM friend. 1386 00:44:43,031 - > 00:44:45,551 I would be so grateful if you would also leave a review. 1387 00:44:45,551 - > 00:44:47,341 It helps tremendously with our reach. 1388 00:44:47,641 - > 00:44:49,241 Thank you so much for coming on this 1389 00:44:49,241 - > 00:44:50,161 adventure with us today. 1390 00:44:50,201 - > 00:44:51,581 I hope this episode leaves you with 1391 00:44:51,581 - > 00:44:52,741 inspiration to take on the 1392 00:44:52,741 - > 00:44:54,221 next step of your own journey.