EPISODE 14: Matt Wurst on Startup Marketing, Cutting Through AI Hype, and Wearing Many Hats

Speaker A: I was on a call with a couple of my team members who are more focused on sales, and we were talking about leaning into creating some content. And we were all wearing literally different hats. And I was like, this is us. Like, one was wearing like a Harrison Ford fedora and one was wearing like a black beanie and I was wearing my golf parti hat. I was like, this is us. We wear different hats. And at some point we may need to trade hats or we may need to take off this hat and just put on a very specialized one. There is no art or science to that. That is just kind of being reactive to every other force that is being thrown at you.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Last Word on Product Marketing. I'm Liza Chakowski, product marketing consultant and host of this podcast. Today we're going back to our marketing roots after a quick foray into the world of sales. I'm going to be talking to Matt Wurst, who is CMO at Genuine, an AI driven video powered platform where brands can create vertical video communities within their own channels. It basically empowers brands to reclaim ownership of their communities and find new revenue streams. I actually worked with Matt on a few projects for Genuine a while back and it's actually a very cool platform. You can check it out@be genuine.com Before Genuine, Matt spent two decades as a brand and creative agency leader, first working in house at the NBA and then leading brand marketing at 360i. He's launched and sold a content agency. He's pretty much just done it all. Plus he has his own podcast called the Snarketing Podcast. So go check that out. After you listen to our chat, of course. Thanks for being here, Matt.

Speaker A: I appreciate all of those kind words, most of which I think are true. But hey, we're in marketing, so it doesn't matter. It's just what you say and people will believe it. Isn't that the truth?

Speaker B: The perception becomes the reality.

Speaker A: Right? So now I have to live up to all those, um, honorific and kind words that you said. The challenge for me is usually as the podcast host, I ask a question, I listen, and then I shut up for a while. I have to get a lot more words than just the last word this time. So challenge accepted.

Speaker B: Excellent. We like challenges on here. So to get it rolling, uh, you've been through an agency leadership and you founded companies and you've even done some fractional work and now you're back inside a startup, Genuine, which has pretty intense growth. What problems are you trying to solve at Genuine now as the marketing leader. And what feels different about this chapter of your career than some other ones?

Speaker A: Yeah, there's a whole lot here. This could be like therapy, personal and professional problems all at once. With Genuine, we are really focused on helping our brands, our partners, stop renting attention and start owning relationships again. That's the real game. It's very lofty, very ambitious. But what it means is Genuine has built an infrastructure so that brands don't have to send their communities away to TikTok, to Meta, to Instagram, or wherever the algorithm feels moody that week. That's a problem. And I don't think brands realize how little benefit they're actually getting. They may get reach, but that acquisition cost is going up, the ROI is going down. And where many of my previous roles were about the convergence of content and community and emerging technology, they were also very much about amplification. Right? That's what agencies do. This one is about reclamation. Reclaiming your data, reclaiming your audience, your attention, your revenue. So as a startup, right, that startup life, again, means, uh, less theory, more doing. And, you know, at any given moment, I will be writing positioning in the morning and jump on a partner call during lunch and then record a podcast in the afternoon. And honestly, that is fun. That chaos is where things get interesting and where interesting things happen. But we're now at this point of, like, operational maturity where some of those structures, frameworks need to be implemented and well developed and then implemented. So we're getting into that rigor of real validation and momentum now.

Speaker B: That's very cool. How do you see that showing up, um, as you present the company in the market?

Speaker A: We have a few different audiences, and I use the terms audience and community differently. When we are building a community, we want our brands, publishers, retailers, consumer services brands to stop treating their consumer like an audience and actually start creating community. It's a multidirectional conversation. Yet that same, uh, framework needs to apply when we are in marketing or in sales, right? It's all in the funnel. But you're not just talking to people. You have to get them to understand the benefit. We need to listen. We need to get them talking to each other. The best tool in marketing. And I will admit I have much more of a brand marketing background than product marketing. But either way, real validation comes when we let our customers, clients and partners tell the story for us, right? It's like Influencer Marketing 101. But when our customer X goes on a stage or to an event or somewhere and is like, this is what's working it's really good. People will believe that than me being like, hey, look at me, I built something cool. So building that real validation engine, that trust engine is on my mind all the time.

Speaker B: Yeah. The show don't Tell.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. Which is hard. As a talker, I'm chief talking officer, you know, that's, that's the hardest thing in the world.

Speaker B: Yeah. So what kind of mistakes do you see founders make in, in their, uh, market facing materials, the sales deck or the website? Um, and how do those mistakes get in the way of having the sales conversations that land?

Speaker A: It depends on the company. Right. The question about mistakes, everyone makes mistakes. Early stage companies make a ton of mistakes. It's how quickly you can learn from and move on.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, everybody understands this and some don't, even though they think they might. And that's why most don't succeed. But there are two parts to it. There is trust and verify and delegate as a leader. Right. Many founders are developers, products engineers, strategists, people who understand a problem and can build something to fix it, but may not be as articulate in communicating that or innovative in bringing the messaging to the right audience. So there's that part of building the right team. Do you hire senior people or junior people? Do you trust? Do you like, how do you do that? Then there's the actual messaging itself. And the best founders will hire marketers sooner than they think they need them. That's just what I've seen. Oh, uh, we don't need marketing yet. We have to get our product right. You know what? Marketing and sales can be ahead of product and product can be ahead of sales and marketing. But the communication there needs to be critical and it needs to evolve. Most decks don't fail because they're wrong. They fail because they're vague. Founders love capability slides. Buyers want outcome slides, full stop AI powered engagement platform. Right. That means nothing. 15 extra minutes per user a month gets attention. Um, so those types of outcomes and benefits are super important. And like you just can't just list all the things you, your product can do. Another killer I've seen is just when you have no clear icp. If everyone is your customer, no one's your customer. And uh, websites especially. Right. Too much product, not enough problem. Buyers need to see themselves in the story. Whether you're revenue, whether you're marketing and content, whether you are product. I need to understand that the solutions you give me make my job easier, my life better, my results more meaningful.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. The product led founders definitely love to get into all the minute capabilities because they're so excited about it. Uh, I just finished a deck where I literally on every product page, insisted on putting what this means for you with an outcomes box in there.

Speaker A: Uh, well, also developing the, the communication protocols. Right. You have a deck, but is that a deck that's meant to be sent ahead? Is it a deck that's meant to be presented live on video or in person? Or is it the followup? Sometimes you need four different decks for the same meeting. And I think that's another thing that people don't realize. And maybe you don't need a deck at all. Maybe you just need a demo. So knowing what actual assets become artifacts is where the marketing magic happens. Certain things can be a LinkedIn post and you just drive people there. Certain things can be a video. Right. So don't overcomplicate it. But I can't tell you how many decks I've seen and probably created that have more words on it than they should. And I'll just leave it at that because sometimes brevity wins.

Speaker B: Yeah. It could also be a crutch, right. Uh, that people get a little nervous if there's just an image and a few words on the slide. But that's what the note section of the deck is for.

Speaker A: Yeah. Again, it's knowing your audience. Are they reading it? Are they listening to you? Are they sending it around to their team? Different decks for different purposes.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So as we're thinking about basically sales enablement, I know that Genuine took a while before you were ready to hire an in house product marketer. And I'm curious to hear you talk about how did you know when it was time to get a full time product marketing resource?

Speaker A: Well, sometimes it's the reality of having a product to market, sometimes it's the reality of having budget to buy and invest in people. But no matter where you are in your development and just evolution as a company or growth, product marketing isn't a title first, it's a function first. So early on someone just needs to connect product reality to market language. Sometimes that's a founder, sometimes that's a cmo. It doesn't matter. At uh, Genuine, we leaned on cross functional storytelling. Right. Product and partnerships and marketing. All kind of co owning stories that ladder up to a narrative that we built very early on. That narrative has not changed. The stories will change. They, you have different stories for different, different stakeholders. But you need a uh, dedicated product marketer. When complexity increases, when you're getting more consideration deeper in the funnel and I Hate the funnel, but I think it's actually a, ah, practical and useful metaphor here because I can get us uh, 250 meetings. First meetings, but then when you get to the like the meat of the consideration phase, it could be a product person at the customer or the client. And they're not just going to take my word for it. They want to see documentation, they want to see use cases, they want to know that we can back up what we are saying. So knowing those multiple Personas, competitive noise, scaling, sales, hiring too early can create slides instead of signals and that is what you want to avoid?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I also find that uh, having a single messaging bible gets everyone on the same page, particularly when it's mostly at the beginning, the founder selling. And then you want to hire more sales staff to be able to tell the same story in their own voice but at the same time not have it wildly differ from what everyone else is talking about.

Speaker A: Well, the Bible is an interesting metaphor and we don't need to get into religion too much like the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Speaker B: Everyone believes in the Old Testament messaging blueprints.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's. But I think knowing that there are different things that you can take away, whether it's from the Bible itself or from other sort of singular sources of truth, those frameworks become important. And that is where a senior marketer or a strategist becomes so important. Right. What's your mission? Shouldn't change. What are your objectives? They might change every couple of years. What are your strategies? Those become much more specialized. And then the tactics, God, you could have lead gen, demand gen, you could have a million different tactics. But everything needs to ladder back up in that type of feels, um, like a pyramid as I'm designing it in my brain. Because you'll have one mission, several objectives, a bunch of strategies and a ton of tactics. And you test and learn the tactics and you refine the strategies and you then evaluate whether the objectives are met based on the outputs and the outcomes that you've created. I think that all made sense in my brain. I don't know if I now I need a slide to actually show you

Speaker B: what that, uh, looks like. And now we will come to the slide section of the podcast. So obviously Genuine, uh, is an AI driven company. It was very, um, early.

Speaker A: Thank you, by the way. Thank you for saying AI driven and not AI powered.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Big difference from a marketing perspective.

Speaker B: Yes, that's what I was going to ask you about. I think that the, uh, AI driven language, Genuine, was kind of earlier than the rest of the, of the market, or at least at the beginning, before maybe, you know.

Speaker A: Well, you, you know. Why?

Speaker B: Because access to ChatGPT and everyone was using it. So my question is, how do you cut through, through that kind of hype and these. I don't know. In some ways I feel like it's a little bit of a silly discussion to argue about, you know, is it AI driven? Is it AI powered? How are you getting past that?

Speaker A: When you're talking to product people at uh, your customer, it's a different story than it is when you're talking to the marketing people. So again, audience matters. But real AI differentiation isn't saying AI, it's shipping something that people actually use. So when we built our products, we have a range of products within the genuine experience AI helped us build, it helps us generate content, it generates communities. So there are different functions of AI, but the most important is actually what's happening behind the scenes where AI is orchestrator. Orchestration means taking the different products, taking the different tools that our customers have and connecting them in ways where AI enhances, improves, accelerates in different ways. It's not just like this is an AI chat. GPT is a generative AI LLM that is a product that does a very specific thing, whereas ours is more complex, but in ways that we probably don't even need to talk about. Fewer that have AI and daily workflows delivering measurable value. Right? That's, that's what's proliferating now. So for us, agentic orchestration is the thing. It's not just generating content, but helping brands to plan and to organize and to build and to grow and to monetize. So I look for three signals when I'm, um, when I hear AI powered because everything is AI powered now. No matter whether it's like you asking questions in a sales pitch that were AI created but were driven by the right inputs. Like, it doesn't matter to me. Does it reduce friction? Does it create revenue? Does it improve UX user experience? If it's just shiny automation, that's marketing theater.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I also think that this AI language around any kind of differentiation is going to go away. Just like we don't talk about is your company on the Internet. Right?

Speaker A: You know, I, I was, I kind of was inspired by something I saw someone post on, um, LinkedIn and I had this light bulb moment, pun actually intended for a reason. And the post was about how their entire company is now an AI operating system. I was like, m. No it's not. You sell hardware like that. You're, you're, you're a hardware store. And AI is not an OS in the same way that you live in a house, but electricity powers that house.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: AI is the electricity in your house.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good idea.

Speaker A: Let's not confuse the operating systems versus the actual infrastructure.

Speaker B: 2mhm.

Speaker A: Very important terms that have become interchangeable that like. Let's reclaim definitions as well while we're at it.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I wanted to talk a little bit about how um, at the beginning a lot of the marketing and sales has to do with word of mouth and leveraging relationships. But then when you go to a different phase of the business, you're going to go from meetings with friends to building something that the uh, market is really interested in. How do you manage that?

Speaker A: I wish we didn't have to. I wish we could just hang out with our friends. But it doesn't always work that way. Early partnerships for us came through our relationships. Right. People we knew, people we worked with, people that trusted us. That doesn't happen from cold emails. It happens from years of just industry trust. But relationships only buy you one meeting. If you can't deliver in that meeting and then after that, product market fit has to carry the weight. And that's where a lot of early stage companies hit, um, you know, a bit of a frustrating wall and, but also don't underestimate the power of consistency. Like consistently showing up, being at conferences and at dinners and on podcasts. Right. This industry still runs on human connection, so you can't like disappear either. Uh, even after that. It's the reason I'm out and about. Right. I'm almost 80 years old. I feel like at this point in my life and I get tired easily, but I keep showing up.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's definitely key. What happens when you're showing up. Uh, but maybe some other, no one else does.

Speaker A: I'm in the wrong room then, uh,

Speaker B: other parts of the business, um, maybe aren't supporting you as much as they can for you to be successful. But um, we've all been in that situation where. But it's marketing's fault. How do you kind of navigate that or figure out is it a go to market issue? Is it um, a product market fit issue? How do you navigate that and try to fix it?

Speaker A: It I, uh, went. Look, when growth stalls, it's rarely just messaging. I will say that both from experience as well as from expertise as well as from a little bit of scarred, uh, defensiveness but it comes down to alignment, right. And operational maturity, I think. So the first question, are customers confused? Are they not convinced? Are they just not interested? Right. Those are different problems, right? So think about what's actually causing that disconnect. Then I look at sales cycle friction, right? If deals stall later or, or like deeper in the funnel, that's. That could be trust, it could be product. Right. If early, it's positioning. So knowing where you know, if it's, uh, five meetings and they stop calling you back or stop responding to your emails, that's a different problem than they're not responding to your first outreach. So that's. That's the first question. Market readiness also matters, right? You can't be in 2013 talking about AI orchestration. Sometimes you're right, but you're early. And that misalignment in timing can actually be expensive. And then, oh, crap, your Runway is now gone. So fixing it usually means cross functional honesty. And it's not finger pointing. Maybe there's occasionally some yelling that happens. But you know what, if it's all within the family, that's fine as long as people don't see it or hear it outside. Um, different personalities are also key. Sometimes you hire people who are technically a great fit, but don't fit into the overall patchwork quilt of what your organization needs. And that's hard to discern in an interview. It's even harder for early stage founders who some have great people skills and some don't. So maybe as CMO or cfo, you're wearing the head of HR and talent hat, and you're not really as adept at that based on your experience, but you're thrown into that role. So being honest about where alignment is actually happening at a product level, at a positioning level or a personnel level is. It's part of the game.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I also think that when, uh, you get hired, sometimes at some. A certain level that the company is at or a certain growth phase the company is at, and you were hired because you have one specific thing that you're doing to help with that, and then you succeed and you're in a different phase, but that's not your skill set anymore. I think that happens a lot with, uh.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's. I. How much time do we have? Um, I was joking earlier because I was on a call with a couple of my team members who are more focused on sales, and we were talking about leaning into creating some content and actually like documenting some things, and we were all wearing literally different hats and I took a screenshot. I was like, this is us. Like one was wearing like a Harrison Ford fedora and one was wearing like a black beanie. And I was wearing. I don't know if this is a podcast. I was wearing my golf partee hat. I was like, this is us. We wear different hats. And at some point we may need to trade hats or we may need to take off this hat and just put on a very specialized one. There is no art or science to that. That is just kind of being reactive to every other force that is being thrown at you.

Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. I love the. It's not even an analogy. The different hats. It's. It's literal.

Speaker A: We're living it. We are wearing different hats.

Speaker B: Right. So on your podcast, the Snarketing Podcast, sometimes you kind of call out marketing nonsense.

Speaker A: Right? Or just some of the people. Yeah, either way.

Speaker B: But Right, right. What do you think everyone says is a best practice in marketing? Um, or product marketing or growth, but you think is really over prescribed or just not needed?

Speaker A: I think we've gotten to a point where, uh, vanity metrics dressed up as strategy. We're past that. Right. It's still happening. It is still useless. Follower counts, impressions, reach. Um, and we live this at Genuine. Like the reason the company is called Genuine is because we want to create genuine connections. Those vanity metrics can give you in social or even in real life a nice ego boost. But the business impact is questionable at best. I m care more about intention than attention.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, time spent, engagement, depth, community participation. You know, influencer marketing is another one of these things where it can be the most important thing you do. But sometimes brands will treat it as a standalone strategy. Nope, It's a tactic inside a bigger ecosystem. So I hear different things that people are doing and what it boils down to, whether it's misaligned on the vanity metrics or the specific tactics, it's that tactics and strategies are not the same thing. Don't create a plan that has different tactics that don't align to unified strategies. So that's. That's kind of resonating with me. And I will call out when I hear like, oh, we built a whole strategy on how to reach this audience. And it was really just like paid media targeting tactics.

Speaker B: Most people don't know the difference between strategy and tactics. I.

Speaker A: Well, they will now, right. So if not, shame on our marketing for not getting it out there. But that's actually another.

Speaker B: Huh.

Speaker A: Uh, we're living this community beating audience. I said it earlier but community beats audience every time. So the more we educate each other on things like that in this community that you are building and your product marketing community, um, win.

Speaker B: Right, right. Yeah, I hear you.

Speaker A: So we got to get millions of listeners to this podcast.

Speaker B: Okay, great. Sounds good. Actually, I wanted to ask you in terms of the vanity metrics. I see you're a pretty consistent poster on, on, uh, LinkedIn, but at the same. And you have a, you know, you have a.

Speaker A: And I'm not doing it for vanity because I have certain posts that get like three likes.

Speaker B: I was gonna ask you about that. Um, I really had to rethink the way I think about LinkedIn because I was getting a little bit in my, in my head about it, um, in terms of the vanity metrics and kind of missing the forest through the trees in that, like.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Though some people that have never liked anything have contacted me about wanting to work together. I have to. And they didn't cite a specific post. But the fact that I'm out there,

Speaker A: best ROI ever is, is the actual outcome. Right. You can't control the algorithm. And I, I love LinkedIn because it is really the most community centric social platform. I, I'm off most of the others, except for occasionally posting a reel on Instagram at this point or promoting other channels back using those channels as a actual hub and spoke. Where do I want people to go? I have a podcast. I have a great company that we're promoting. Right. So re architecting and using like push to pull is the way you should think about it. I posted every day something on, um, LinkedIn for over four years. And then I made like a big deal about taking one day off, like a break. I'm like, you know what? I'm not addicted. I could do it. I could take a break. And by like midday, I was like getting the itch and getting the twitch and getting the urge again. And I've been doing it again ever since. And I have certain days where I'm getting tens of thousands of impressions and then something else that I'm like, put a lot of thought into this and it was like 800 impressions and six likes. I'm like, you know what? Good for those six people. They get it.

Speaker B: These are my people. Yes.

Speaker A: It's not about the size of your audience.

Speaker B: It has less to do with anything except the mood of the algorithm. Never know what's going to hit. So thinking more about just career lessons learned, I always like to ask people, uh, what's the worst piece of advice you ever Received, um, in your career,

Speaker A: go on more podcasts. No, I'm kidding. Um, the worst piece of advice, actually, ironically, the worst piece of advice that I got. I'm not naming names, but I remember this very distinctly after I was having one of those. Like, I'd been at a company for a long time. Did I want to do a startup, what do I want to do next? And it was to build on your previous experience and scale what worked before, because you already know how to do that and you'll bring that wisdom to other people. And that may have been true, and it probably would have been. And I could have been successful had I gone that route. But I'm someone who likes to add tools to the toolkit. Right. I am proudly a generalist in many ways. And I think context matters just too much for that. Right. Markets change, platforms change, culture changes. And that excites me. That's what keeps me young at heart and full of energy and sometimes awake at night. But what worked in 2015, social media does not work in AI. You know, optimize search environments now. So advice I wish marketers learn earlier as they are building their careers. And adding tools is like, the one thing that will be consistent is the trust is the currency, not impressions, not clicks. Build the relationships and work with people who are willing to trust you even if you make mistakes. Because once you get to that point, everything else gets easier.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. Yeah. I also am someone that really likes to keep things moving in terms of learning new things. I think that's why I love the consulting lifestyle, because you're always changing and learning something new and applying what you know to some other kind of technology. I think that's too sharp.

Speaker A: Right. Like, it's, uh, it's just, I think, important. It's the reason I do crossword puzzles still. The New York Times crossword puzzle, it gets harder every day of the week. But that challenges me to use my brain in a way that gets outside of the day to day. Right. They. I've read somewhere that it also will like, push off Alzheimer's disease, dementia and other atrophying brain function.

Speaker B: You're gonna live forever now or your brain is gonna live forever.

Speaker A: I do as long as I can remember the name of the river in Germany. Six letters that no one else needs to remember.

Speaker B: Um, do you Google anything to get it or.

Speaker A: No, I don't. And this is where my kids wouldn't like, will be sitting around the kitchen table on a Sunday morning and I'll be Lingering on it. I'll be like, ah, what is it? And they're like, why are you not googling this? It's like, you have no idea. You will have it so easy. This is how we stay sharp. And they're like, the answer, uh, to that question is blah, blah, blah. So they will spoil it for me.

Speaker B: But okay. I usually try to wrap up asking people, what's something that has nothing to do with your job or marketing but makes you better at your job?

Speaker A: Well, it's not crossword puzzles. Um, that does keep me sharp, but that's not the answer. I actually do think it is podcasting. Honestly, it forces curiosity. Yes. It has opened up business development opportunities and actual client relationships. People I've talked to that I was introduced to, who become partners. Because you're building trust, you're building a relationship. It shows that I know how to listen and ask questions. Questions that provoke you. I actually have two podcasts that we do. So snarketing lets me challenge assumptions publicly in my own unfiltered personal way. Right. You listen deeply. It makes you better at positioning all that stuff. But we created one with genuine middle of last year that is just now starting to really pick up some momentum where it's not random conversations. It's not, it's not someone you met at dinner. Yes, those skills work there too. But this is much more about work related topics. We call it genuine connections. And that is also helping. So being comfortable talking with. Not talking at, not talking to and not listening, that skill set is, is critical. Um, and also just listening to music. Right. I'm a big Springsteen fan, so storytelling, he's a master storyteller, gives a masterclass in every song. Um, I don't think everyone and everything should be about storytelling and marketing. I think that is somewhat of an over exaggerated, over correction that has happened. But story making matters more than storytelling. And that's where I think we should be focused when we are podcasting. We are making stories together. I've only told you a few stories, but I am making a story with you right now.

Speaker B: I love that. That's great. Yeah, I agree. I think that podcasting is.

Speaker A: Maybe you don't agree. I don't know.

Speaker B: Uh, no, I do agree. I do agree. I think that podcasting sharpens a lot of skills that we use as marketers and in life, being curious about other people, asking them questions versus just talking about yourself all the time.

Speaker A: Um, don't you feel more comfortable just riffing with people because you're riffing here and there's like higher state. Yes, you can edit this. If we screwed up. I don't think we did. Hopefully there's zero editing that has to happen here. But, like, you don't get those do overs in real life. So this is kind of like your rehearsal for real life.

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think, uh, it's been a good experience. I think it's a lot of fun. Awesome. So I think that brings us to be able to wrap up. What's the best way people can get in touch with you? Is IT email or LinkedIn?

Speaker A: I. I am. I'm everywhere. You don't need to search too hard to find me. I think LinkedIn is probably fastest. I actually read messages. Um, you know, I. I do think also from a content perspective, the snarketing podcast is another entry point if you want to spar publicly, but. And then the genuine website works if you want the official route. But I love to be out and about. So if you see me at a conference, say hello. I'm usually the guy talking too much about the future of media in the middle of a circle by the coffee bar because I can't listen to people for like 45 minutes, show slides that have words on it that my old eyes can't read. I hear you.

Speaker B: And I can attend test that you're very approachable. So people really should come say hello. So thanks so much for being a guest on the Last Word on product marketing. I love catching up with you. Everyone should be sure to subscribe to my podcast on all the major platforms and check it out on YouTube for the videos. Thank you for listening.