GTTW: Forget Silicon Valley, Ghana’s EdTech Innovators are doing It differently | Ghana Tech to the World

Speaker A: So I was in one Eastern African country and for them the government or the Ministry of Education mandated all universities to switch to an online admission system. And it's weird because it was a blanket statement and everyone had to comply. So you now have students coming to the schools to get lecturers to help them create accounts in order to apply to school.

Speaker B: This is not to brag, but I believe we're the only um, ETECH company in Ghana that is able to mark section B. So you're thinking about essays, you're thinking about comprehension. Yeah. So we've been training um, the AI to be able to mark the essays and then give uh, feedback.

Speaker C: One way to describe the future of learning in Ghana.

Speaker A: I'll take one word. AI.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: That's the future.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah it is. I agree.

Speaker C: Welcome to Building Bytes and where we tell relevant stories about Ghana's digital ecosystem to fuel innovation and drive growth in our digital ecosystem. So this show is brought to you by Insights Lab with production support of Aptel Academy and SH in the Apptel Academy studios. Uh, before we get into our discussion, Building Bytes now airs on MX24 on um, is it Wednesdays? On Thursdays 8:00pm 8 to 9:00pm? Yeah. And on Sundays from 9:00pm 7 to 8? From 7 to 8. Okay. So Thursdays 8 to 8 to 9, Sunday 7 to 7 to 8. Okay. So you have like two amazing hours of catching up on Building Bites on your main TV station. So on this episode we are going to zoom in on one of the most critical sectors of our future which would be on educational technology. We know that educational technology space have had um, a lot of interesting experiences from it being one of the like the slowest growing spaces in uh, in Africa probably our classified, not just Ghana and also one of the sectors that has been found difficult to monetize. But I believe with our expertise here or the experts here would um, delve deep into it and find out what makes that the situation or how we can change that onto a better course. But before I get into that I want to find out what happened in tech. So Poga.

Speaker D: Okay, so this week on what's happening in tech, um Hoptel aims um, African expansion with appointments of two new advisory council members. Um, so basically they're appointing Simon Pauli um, and Majority Saint slots. So they come with um, Simon comes with over 30 years of experience working across Africa and Majority also comes with about 10 years of experience working in various um, company across Africa and various industry. They've helped a bunch of company to expand across Africa um, including A lot a bunch of companies expand across Africa so basically that's it. I don't know your thoughts? Um. UPTAL is going to expanding toward African country. What are your thoughts? Any comments?

Speaker B: Okay, I think to me I think it's, it's amazing. It's always great to see um you know Ghanaian companies you know uh go beyond our borders and then you know expand. It gives us in the tech space you know something to look at in the future, you know.

Speaker D: Awesome, awesome. Caleb, do you have any.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think um. I don't know whether this is going to be half second attempt to go uh out.

Speaker D: It will be their second attempt, second attempt, hopefully their last attempt. No, I mean they conquer the market and they.

Speaker C: I don't think it should be their last. They said four, seven times and rise up.

Speaker D: So maybe I mean I'm wishing them

Speaker C: all the best and I think the experts um considered because across um Mobile, telecom, logistics, E commerce and other they're they, they're in the fields they work in so I'm sure they'll figure something out.

Speaker D: And I think basically a new um a different company from the hotel we knew the last time they did the African expansion. So I think maybe they have more um. More things to succeed us as opposed to the lifetime they endeavored into other African market. So yeah wishing them all the best on that front. Yeah. So the second news item um. I think probably we all heard of it. Um Government is to merge Teleso and at um Ghana. Basically they say 80 is um. Both of the companies are hemorrhaging tens of millions of um Ghana cities or dollars. So they, they're merging them. Um I mean for me the question is um. Would that solve the problem? Would it make them competitive? Um I think we had Eric in Sacco back then when they were merging um et al and Tigo. We had him on the show I think last year at the beginning of last year and he asked question will it solve the problem? And it's it clearly didn't. And we are here again mention you know two institution that were merged before to a third one. So that's, that's, that's my, my question. Will it make them competitive? Well what's your thoughts?

Speaker C: It's I mean like Eric's question, I think it still stands today. What's the basis of the measure? Unless maybe they want to come up with at&t. But I, I, I hope like we, we solve some of this fundamental issues because it is if we solve it what happens is that we can use it in other places, I think it's not only a method to go and Telesel are the only ones suffering. I mean, G is still suffering. A lot of governmental institution agencies or institutions are uh, facing some of these challenges. How do we solve it? We, I, I don't think the best approach is just merging and merging and merging and trying to make it look smaller. I have, uh, Ghana city has ended up being smaller, but, you know, it's not doing well. Yeah. But there are things we should solve and I hope people who have been paid for that should think critically into that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: For me, my thoughts on this, um, I think apart from just merging two companies.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: I think we need to really do a diagnostic of what the actual problem across the country is and then figure out what we need to do. Now, when it comes to the telecommunications phase, there's a lot of costs in terms of the infrastructure. So, um, and I'm guessing that's why Etel, uh, till 80 was losing money. But if we need to get government support in, we get government support in. But when it comes to the management, I think that government should take its hands for management and let a private individual, of course, with some checks and balances so that they don't have just a capitalist mindset manage it efficiently. That's what I think.

Speaker C: Uh, in another sense, I'm also thinking of the jobs. What's going to happen?

Speaker A: Um, they mentioned, they mentioned no one would lose their jobs. That's what I saw.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think from my end, I actually did, uh, my national service at Airtel, so. So I just look at it from afar. You know, I'll say they gave me my, my look into, you know, how technology and stuff works like 14 years ago. So I'm just looking at it from afar. So let's see how it goes. I mean we saw with Tigo now, you know, with Telesale as well. So we'll just see how it goes.

Speaker C: Yeah. On the sidebar, I think we mentioned that it seems Tigo, we later became eto was a training grounds for amazing people.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And we are yet to have that conversation. Why they are able to produce the people, but the people are unable to.

Speaker D: So that's all for what's happening in M Tech this week.

Speaker C: All right, thank you, Poga. So on what's happening in AI, I mean, the last time we spoke about how a company was bought, which was valid, about $18 billion, trying to acquire that company for $34.5 billion, that was between perplexity and, and Google, that's Google Chrome. And this week another interesting one comes up as LAN is acquiring the browser company and an AI company. Um, browser company called Arc or with the products called ARC for US$610 million or cash, pre revenue, pre everything unless pre product, I mean users. So they have users and products but no revenue. But they acquiring them for 610 million, um, cash. I don't know any, any thoughts on that, like how insightful that can be even though we don't see that in Ghana.

Speaker A: I mean that's the space that we are in now, um, where all the big companies want to have a foot in the air race.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So it's going to be an acquisition spree.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Whether it's talent, whether it's a company, whether it's an um, idea. So I think they are going all out and I think probably right after this phase then we'll start seeing maturity in this space. Because for the AI space currently everything is changing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: There's nothing stable. So um, I wish I'm all the best.

Speaker B: I wish they were the best. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, just to touch on what he's saying, you know it's either you're coming for the talent or the tech itself. So it's interesting. Everybody wants to be the first to get to AGI. You know, artificial general intelligence. I mean meta is calling it super uh, intelligence. So if you have the money and you can buy your way to that to win.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Then I mean we'll see.

Speaker A: We'll see.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. In that same light, Oracle, Oracle also expands into AI and at a close of business or close of stock market change signal a 300 billion increase in stock whil people claim there's not, nothing much has changed.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Their founder uh, is, is now. Um. Yeah. And thoughts on that? I think that's my correct. Um, I believe in my correct a little bit because. And you might lose the first spots because the gap is just about 20 billion um, or so. But yeah. Um, my general thoughts on this AI acquisition spree and you know, valuation is. It looks like we are in the face of a bubble. As you said, people want to dominate the markets. We, the companies have been over valued and people are throwing money at things just in the chase to like I need to get this. I, you know, I don't want anybody, anybody else to get it. Zuckerberg reportedly give somebody a billion.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Offer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Just come on board and you know it's, it's on head off and it looks like you're in a Bubble and hopefully it doesn't, you know, tip over where this thing all comes crashing. But yeah, let's see how that goes.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I, uh, I don't know, compared to the crypto space, I think it's. Yeah, it feels more real. Yeah. Than it does than, than the cryptos. I, I believe even if the market should mature or be stable, it will not dip that much. Yeah, it will not dip that much.

Speaker A: I think, I think OpenAI did something really good with ChatGPT. Um, because AI was something that was in the background.

Speaker B: It was for the geeks.

Speaker A: Now it became readily available. Uh, and everybody wants to be in front of the customer. Right. So it's visible, it's touchable.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, yeah, it's more real than crypto.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: All right.

Speaker D: I argue with that.

Speaker C: But. We are going direct into our conversation. We believe education has been experiencing certain interesting changes. From what we used to call elearning platforms to virtual classrooms to AI teaching tools. ETECH is reshaping our Ghanaians and people across Africa are learning. And today we are glad to have, um, two amazing people. Daniel Bullshit. An education consultant and a data learning strategist. Um, passionate about rethink, rethinking higher technology, empower students and educators in Ghana. And Sen Mai JJ. Very good CEO of QNO eTech, a platform driving access and innovation in edtech and a leader shaping the future of learning for African classrooms. So glad to have you, Daniel and senor, to start with. Maybe, um, give us a brief intro for from your own self, what you do and how you do that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, so I'm Senor Mali Jage. So usually people don't get the name, the last name right, but then you did very well so I have to applaud that. So, yeah, so I'm a co founder and CEO of Kino Etech. Uh, we're a data driven edtech company building AI powered, um, software and hardware. So I actually have one of our hardware, you know, products I'm wearing right now. Um, we had been collecting data, ah, on learning and other things for a very long time. In anticipation of AI and other things, um, we build not just one product but then several to solve several different, uh, problems in the educational space. So far so good. We've been learning, uh, over the last few years implementing our solutions and ideas into the Ghanaian market and then looking to see how we can break, you know, into different markets as well.

Speaker C: Awesome. Awesome. Daniel, how about you?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm Daniel. Daniel Butre. I'm, um, currently with One of the leading private universities in Ghana. Um, I work in the IT department and I lead the management Information systems unit. Now what I do is to basically handle the key educational software systems that we use in the institution. So basically everything from admissions to classroom, that's an elements Learning management systems, student information systems and all the ad hoc software systems that come with it. Yeah, yeah, I've been doing that for the past 10 years.

Speaker C: Wow, that's amazing. By the way, um, all both experts have been in industry for more than 10 years as we speak now. So very deep knowledge in there. But coming into, I mean starting from a very personal side. Ah, how did you get into tech or edtech in this space? What happened? Anyone?

Speaker B: Okay, so, um, I think I have a extensive, you know, way into how I came into edtech. So I actually grew up in um. Australia. Yeah, so I moved to Australia when I was two with my aunts, my mom's older sister. So then they took me in whilst my parents were finding their feet. So I experienced that um, educational system where at that point in time Moving from the mid-1990s into um, the early 2000s, there was a lot of computers in our class. So just having that experience was something very interesting to me. I came back to Ghana in the year 2000 towards the end and everything was just done different. You know, it's paper, books, things like that where we were learning how, you know, to do math and things in gamified, you know, modules in Australia. Back in Ghana it was like you're doing everything on the book. So coming from a middle income, uh, family, I did have a laptop and then computers at home to learn. But then, you know, other friends in the class didn't have those things. So I always felt that if, you know, I grew up, I could do something where my scenario wouldn't be the same scenario with everybody else. Like we could try and make education accessible to all. So that's how I got into it.

Speaker C: Insightful.

Speaker A: So I, I would say it's a blaster. I don't, I don't have the Australian background because I've been here, I've been here. But I mean, so I think this was about the time that, you know, right after bec, almost everyone that I knew and everyone before me was going to nnit. Yeah, I'm sure you remember that time.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: So right after uh, Bec, everyone was just going, what's the next thing? And it was computer class, vacation class, all of those things. So that's where my interest in technology actually came from. Right. And it was quite interesting because I was exposed to this uh, tool and this machine that you could do a lot of things with but it was only segmented to one period. If you go back to school in a day.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Where just you have just a few times, a few minutes go into the computer lab and play with it. Basically that's what it is. But then I go into ss. No computer experience at all. But we always had one teacher and I'm sure it's the case across multiple secondary schools where you'd always have to submit your documents and they are the computer guys have to go into the system. And it was weird because you couldn't do this, you know. But when it came to the results, we then had to go to an Internet cafe.

Speaker C: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: And then check your things. Then I moved into the investi and for the investor. So I went into Ashesi University and from day one we were introduced to computers. Right. So every work that you were doing, every submission had to be done on computers. And I realized that okay, I was lacking in typing. I didn't know how to like 10 words, you know, to get to do. Understand. Okay. What's this? What's this? Was this. So it was my full exp. It was, it was the first time I was really introduced to the IT space. Right. Working on a day to day with computers. I had a desktop back at home, but I didn't have a laptop. So you had to make use of the computer lab. And I had in mind, you know, the previous experience I had was just one hour or so in the day. But this was open and you should be able to go there and do your work. All assignments were expected. So it was from that background that I realized that there's really, really a shift. Um, there's, you know, there are the institutions that give their students the opportunity to encounter the tech that they need to do their job and then there are those that need to figure out, you know, paper and pen. And I realized that there's something that needs to be done, you know, for Ghana or the African continent as a whole to shift well into the technology space. Yeah, that's my intro.

Speaker C: Awesome. Awesome. So it's clear, I mean um, you either you got an awakening that there was a, there was a lack somewhere.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Or there was a better treatment somewhere. And for you, how did you get to know that you could solve such a challenge in like whether in the Ghana's um, technical system or organis educational system or Africa's education assistant at what point. Do you realize that maybe these experiences can give you a leap into solving some of these challenges?

Speaker B: Okay, so I think for us, um, the main thing was I looked at it from my own personal experiences when preparing for BEC as well, where everything was still on the paper based things where if we're doing past questions or things like that, you'd have maybe a group of four friends would go through the, was it like Akilah or something? Then you know, would write 1 to 1 to 40 and then you know, take those things like, and then put the right answer and then you share it across and then everybody has to mark and then you see where your, your, your faults were. But the thing was it wasn't quick. We didn't get enough feedback and then um, we didn't even have somebody to guide us after that because everything was like rushed. So it's like you couldn't really prepare on your own. You also needed a teacher, uh, to sort of guide you. The teacher doesn't have time. So I felt that, you know, exams per se, if you don't prepare well, you're going to fail and then you don't get your first choice school. And you know, pressure from parents is like, yeah, you have to do well, you have to get your first choice school. So I knew that if we could build something, there's so many brilliant kids around who just needed a tool to use to actually realize their potential and then get into those spaces. I mean you go to, because we are in the space. You go to the private schools, some of them have, you know, access to the infrastructure. So it's easy just putting your, your software into their hands when you go to the government schools. And you know, recently we've been doing a lot of that to the government schools where you go in the, the, the, the misconception is that yeah, this is a public school so they're not too brilliant. But the funny thing is when it's time for the bec, you have a lot of parents from private schools actually taking their students out or their kids out from the private schools and then sending them to the government schools. And it's a trend that has been happening for like two, three years because they feel that they prepare them better. Uh, and when we start giving them our tools, they're doing very well because they know the things, I mean they know the fundamentals. So then we just enhance the experience for them. So it's, it's, it's interesting that you know, once you build something and you don't limit it to okay this demographic because they have the infrastructure, then that's it. The amazing ways where our solution has been used in these public schools. And you just marvel at how, um, very resourceful the teachers and the kids are once they have access to these things. So our thought was let's build for all demographics and then see how it goes. And then, I mean we are at where we are now because of how we, we, we, you know, um, put things together.

Speaker C: Awesome, awesome.

Speaker D: Can you explain a little bit how QNO works? Um, how. What does it do for a student for somebody who doesn't know?

Speaker B: Okay, so, yeah, so, you know, so I'll touch on the QNO exams because, um, yeah, so we have four different products. The QNO exams is an AI powered exam simulator. So, you know, the same way I was talking about, uh, four friends, you know, sharing their books. And so it does all that. It's, it's um, we do the section A and the section B. So this is not to brag, but I believe we're the only, um, etech company in Ghana that is able to mark section B. So you're thinking about essays, you're thinking about comprehension. Yeah. So we've been training, um, the AI to be able to mark the essays and then give, uh, feedback. So ideally most, most companies would target the section because like it's automated. You know, if one is A, it's A. If it's two is. Yeah. But then subjective side is always the most difficult thing. So for us, we, when we're rolling out the Cuno exams, we really hammered on. We have to get the exams side right. In the sense that students would say, yes, I can do the section A, but section B is where the problem is. And if my, if my M teacher doesn't have time for me, I can go and write anything in the hall because I felt this is what I saw in the book. But if we actually simulate the exams itself. Where you can take this exam, let's say starting in September, where most students have graduated from form two and you know they're going to form three and then you have like eight months to prepare. If I'm doing section B consistently, I'm getting feedback, it's being marked and it marks. So the whole section A, section B within 30 to 50 seconds. If your Internet is good.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it marks that within 30, 50 seconds you see all your results for the section A. Then you come to the section B where that's where the major thing is. So then a child would see, okay, what is Osmosis, maybe if Osmosis has six different explanations so far as you have one of the six there, we've trained the AI to be able to, you know, mark that and then go through. The other thing we also did was for it to overlook some type of, um, spelling mistakes as well, because then it happens when the examiners are doing that as well. So just giving them that whole process where I can do section A, section B, and then have the results and then have a progress, uh, tracker over a period of time. So we have for the full 10 subjects and then for individual subjects as well. So science, maybe you took 10 over, you know, a month, so it strikes your average, and then it will show you if you're actually ready to do that. And then if not, we send that information back to the owners of schools or the teachers so that this week we're coming to improve upon science. This aspect itself. Yeah. So then that's what we. We did with the Cuno exams.

Speaker C: Uh, that's amazing. That's amazing.

Speaker A: That's interesting.

Speaker C: That's amazing. Yeah. Maybe I'll come back on it, but I think. Do you do anything for senior high?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Because I feel like there's a big market. They're looking at, um, the NDC exams. That is, those who retake the exam get better results for certain programs. You know, I feel like there's a big opportunity there recently asking someone to check out how much it costs. I was surprised. I don't think the price is meant for average.

Speaker B: It's crazy. I mean, the thing is, uh, the guarantee is that when you come and rewrite.

Speaker C: But there's nothing like back in that. Yeah, there's nothing back in there.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, so we actually do for, um, Wasi and then of Deck as well. So. But it. It took longer to train the AI, uh, for that because you have so many other subjects. And then also, um, the technicalities, the terms, and then the English. It has to be a bit more mature. Yeah. So currently the team is. You know, the funny thing is, uh, not funny. But then we have junior developers. Our junior developing team are all female, you know, so, yeah, it's. We really hammered on that because tech should be for everyone. So it's not. It's not. We actually did the interviews and stuff. But then the main thing is these ones stood out.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So five in total. They stood out in terms of how they related to the questions we asked, and then also what they saw in what we were trying to build. So they kill themselves. Like how we kill ourselves in the office. 12:00am, um, 1:00am, 2:00am um, they're cranking it, you know. Seriously. So yeah, I mean the future is bright for women. Intense.

Speaker C: Awesome. Awesome. How about you? How uh, when did you realize that this, you could be solving a major challenge for medication?

Speaker A: So, so for me I'll uh, look at education but outside of the classroom and there's a lot of gap in terms of management of records and that's one of the key things that I focus on now. One of the major things that you realize is there isn't a structured way of passing down data or even storing data. And in fact even in dealing with, when schools are dealing with parents, it's still an old way. Right? M. There are few institutions that I've worked with that have set up a system so they send an electronic report card, all of those things. And it really just takes um, a good understanding of what's available and the tools that are available. So it could set up um, I'll give one other example. This also ed tech, but this in the agriculture space. So I don't know if this is right. So worked on this um, NGO led project where they were looking at micro learning but then this was for farmers in the rural area. So text based learning, um, interactive voice and all of that. And it's basically the same experience or the setup process when you are setting up for um, investee secondary school if they are setting up a lender management system. But there is a different approach and the audience in that particular situation is very, very key where you need to break things down, you need to look at the technology that's available to them. So you were talking about you know, schools that have the infrastructure and those that don't have. When you're looking at those in the rural area you're looking at the barest minimum, the best minimum technology. Nothing f you I don't think.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You have a, you must have a solid background but an easy way of distributing to the technology that they have. So yeah, um, outside of the classroom there's still a lot of gaps that we need to look at and yeah, that's one of the things that we've worked on.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So also from your experience it's also finding out how um, technology is being used in educational sense. What were some points that you, you saw the use of technology from your experiences that you thought this was like a very unique way of using it. Even though maybe um, our countries or institutions might not be there, but you felt there was, there was something Interesting there that you never knew that could be done.

Speaker A: Yeah. So if I was just up. So I think you mentioned in, in Australia, the gamification. That's something that I recently got to, um, it's actually a crutch, kindergarten, lower ed, lower level school, um, in South Africa.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: And for them the entire learning experience is about gamification. So they take their time, you know. So this was um, at a conference that I went to and I had the opportunity to engage with them. They have this concept of gamifying every lecture. So in fact, even with the ui, the look and feel, the points, all of those things for the school, it's a lot of work to get that done. But then the impact it has on the students, uh, is really, really wild. And then you contrast that to, you know, most of the, let me say the majority of the schools we have and their interaction even with computers. I know there's this funny social um, media clip that has been going. You draw the whole computer on the blackboard. You label all the blackboard and we are worlds apart. But I don't think we are far away. I don't think we are far away. What I'm really concerned about is there are multiple initiatives that comes up, you know, on a national level that doesn't go through and I'm sure people probably will touch on that later. You know, laptops for teachers and laptops for students. So I'll leave that for. Probably for another time.

Speaker B: But yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: It's interesting. Uh, maybe not much of a challenge because probably are better than some countries. We pride ourselves in that because sometimes some of our projects are interesting that we are giving our free laptops to teachers that should be having that if they are first year investor teaching, um, teaching training, college or anywhere. That should have been like a common a tool to them, like a mobile phone. But it seems we face some of these challenges and I'm curious to know where have you hit. Uh, some of this was personally to realize that uh, you want to make this happen. But maybe this headmaster, this infrastructure, this policy is limiting you. Can you share some of those experiences with it?

Speaker B: Yeah. So. So for us we've had so many pushbacks. Oh yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. So I'd say, um, we launched the company, you know, and we're building in stealth from let's say 2016 to about like 2018 testing. I actually used to go and sit in, you know, classrooms. Yeah. To see our lessons. Would, would um, you know, go on and see what, what like what tools we could build, you know, so even just to come and sit in the classroom, like. Yeah, yeah. So then you actually build a thing and then you, you come back and say, yeah, we have this, the adoption. Even for teachers, like at that time where AI was nothing. Yeah. You know, like you're coming to take out jobs, you know, things like that. And then, um, the owners of schools, they're also thinking it's too expensive. We haven't even talked about money. You know, I'm like, let me pilot my thing in your school. Yeah, we're not talking about money. I want to see if it works, you know, so that's one thing. And then infrastructure. Infrastructure is, is always going to be a challenge in Africa. Yeah. So infrastructure is, is one thing where you have some schools with computer labs.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then some that don't have. Funny thing is, I think over the last few years there are some schools who do bring your own device.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: So that also helps us. So we've worked with a school that, you know, does it bring your own device? So then you have the kids bringing, um, their own tablets. Some bring phones and then, you know, some have their laptops there, they have Internet. So the only thing is, yeah, um, this session, connect to Q and O and then use it.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: You get it. So you'd have. Because they don't really want to set up the, the computer lab. The other point of this thing is bring your own stuff. So then the parents who already willingly want to buy it for their kids, like send it to school, but then take care of it. Yeah. So then the other places where you don't have these things, it's, it's always a challenge. So you'd hope that even if you introduce it to them, they can go and use it at home, because some of them actually have smartphones and stuff at home, even with the government schools as well. So you have them with, you know, Android has penetrated the market, so the technos, the itils, all those things, they use it at home. So still it gives us that gateway through. It's just, um, this is the product that has come into the school. This is how much you're going to pay, but then you can use it at home, you know, so infrastructure is always going to be a challenge, but then we try and, you know, mitigate all those things. But it's, it's been, it's been crazy for the last, the last few years. Yeah, no, no doubt, no doubt.

Speaker A: So for me, I, I don't know if I had a, if I had a personal story, but it was a story that I could relate to.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I was in one eastern African country and for them the governments or the Ministry of Education mandated all universities, uh, to switch to an online admission system.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: And it was crazy because their target audience, which are uh, the graduate from senior high schools, didn't know this was some. For some people it was their first time interacting with um, a digital tool.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's weird because it was a blanket statement and everyone had to complain. So you now have students coming to the schools to get lecturers, to help them create accounts in order to apply.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, to school. And I think we've had some, something I've had some similar experience. It wasn't with the two per se, but the very, very first time that we're looking, I was looking at um, an admission to. One of the first things that came up was payments.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: So this was back when, you know, people knew about MTN mobile money but people didn't trust it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. It was back in the day where if your phone is missing, people thought they are wallets and their money is

Speaker B: also missing the money for the account.

Speaker A: So it was a very, very, very, very tough period. I think when it comes to the kind of progress Ghana as a whole has made in terms of technology, we've actually really, really come far.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right, You've come far. We have payment systems, we have databases, um, um, um, hosting service providers that have pitched even in on the continent that you can connect to. There are policies that are also coming up. So we've come far but there's still a gap where people still think of technology as just an entertainment tool. We need to do a lot more work in changing that perspective that this is something that you can actually learn with. Right. So when you, when you do that change then it means that we need to be looking at just digital literacy skills from the very beginning. It's not probably in the invest. You are not asking a one. You know, so there's that digital. It's not just. It should be hands on.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: That's what technology is. You know, for technology you should be experiencing it. You learn, you break something, you fix it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So there's a lot more work that needs to be done on that lower level. Right? Yeah.

Speaker C: Awesome, awesome. So, uh, I don't know for, I mean like the eastern country mentioned.

Speaker A: Yeah. And maybe Tanzania.

Speaker C: I'm just thinking it seems the idea of like Internet cafe was a big solution to the challenge we faced at that time. And Maybe for whatever is happening now, um, like driving digital literacy skills. Even if education I find difficult. Can we model the ideas of like a kind of Internet cafe, that middle man that can provide a computer for a fee.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And use. Because we pay for extra classes. We pay for. Do you think there's that room to create something like that? Whether for investors or primary schools or government schools. Anyone?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, so far as I can't talk in depth about it but yeah, something huge on our angle is coming like that. I'm sure eventually you guys will or I'll uh, make it known to you guys. But then we are ah, targeting something like that, you know where sort of like satellite places where you can have access to these things nationwide.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You get it for me when, when I'm talking to people about how far we want our products to go or even edtech companies in, in Ghana you'd. I always think about the infrastructure and then the distribution.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know these two things are, they go hand in hand. So infrastructure, it could be here in Accra where is you know, dominance. But then you don't have too many people having access but then you have satellite places where you could just seamlessly walk in and then you know, to other, you know, parts of Ghana as well. All the 16 regions. So there's something, the pipeline very, very, I mean today was conversations around that. But then I can't talk too much about it. You, you'll hear soon.

Speaker A: Yeah, so I, I think, I think um, a few institutions especially um, primary schools, some basic high schools, they are taking on the tax of handling this. So they're actually solving this um, with the whole introduction of these term classes. You know we have a lot more hubs uh, you know, doing these term um classes whether on a Saturday, extra class period or vacation period. So there's an introduction but then it's limited to those in the city area. Right. That's a big one. And it makes sense because of course in the city area here in Accra Kumasi we have good Internet penetration. When you go outside into the rural space, anything that you want to think about in edtech you must solve the underlying infrastructure, the competing equipment, Internet for access and then the resources, data, uh, examples, all of those things. It's something that we need to look at it holistically. Um, there are of course modding satellites, um, Internet technologies. There's something that we, we could look at but if you also just look at the telecom space we could actually leverage on not just the mobile network infrastructure that we have but build on top of the data and the quality of data that they provide. Because if we solve that fundamental problem, then innovation can also go into these particular rural areas. So for instance, we've had several examples of people setting up libraries in buses. Yeah, it's very similar to just set up a computer lab in a bus or in a truck and then move it around communities to give them that experience. It's just that initial introduction, get m them excited, spark that thing inside of them and then they can go. But if you have a lab on a wheel.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And there's no Internet, they just get to know the okay physical computers but then there's nothing else. So that's. There's an opportunity there. Um, but there's an underlining thing that isn't just ethic that must be solved.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: I remember. I think we had uh, or we hosted a complete pharmaceuto one time who mentioned that sometimes before you solve a problem you end up building the work.

Speaker B: Yes, you have to be.

Speaker A: And I think those in the agriculture,

Speaker C: this is something that no matter the sector you are in, as long as you're in Ghana, Africa, you would have to solve some of this. These challenges.

Speaker D: I mean about interesting idea. I saw this idea where there's this Internet on a bus, on a box where they had Wikipedia, um, and a couple of educational videos, um, on a Raspberry PI. So I thought it was a very cool idea and other like content you can access on the Internet. So I think it's a very cool idea, something you can implement I guess on Eric. I just wanted to know if um, qnon is offline or it runs online. How does it run?

Speaker B: So, so because of the AI factor and then the feedback, it's, it's usually online. Um, in the past when we had a very comprehensive um, product we used to you know, cache some of the things so that, you know, it could be run offline as well. But then now, I mean where the world is now, the feedback, the instant marking and things like that. Yeah, we, we have to run it online.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: So and I'm guessing for you it's cheaper and it's more, it's easier to manage and maintain.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For now.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, but you have to think about Internet.

Speaker B: That's the thing. That's the thing. So yeah, it's like you know, to access or if we really want to, the distribution thing. If you really want to go across the whole um, nation, the Internet, we have to solve that thing as well, you know, so other people can have access to, to what we're providing. So there's even a funny. A funny. Um, it's not, it's not funny per se. But then, um, very nice young gentleman, you know, approached me, um, on LinkedIn and actually was teaching, um, these, uh, juvenile, you know, how do they call them? Yeah, I mean. Yeah, so they're in prison for. Very young. Yeah. So he wanted to prepare them for. Yeah, right. BC and other things. So he approached me and I thought it was a brilliant idea, you know, because people aren't really, you know, paying attention to those things. But then to him it was like. Yeah, uh, the main thing it was they couldn't have access to Internet in the prison. So then he has to send like a MiFi or something. So he used it and you know, I know he's using it, but then you can't take pictures of these things. But then it was great in the sense that these are people who, you know, are just uh, cut off. Cut off from. Yeah, but they also, I mean the, the main thing. Usually you call them correction centers. Yeah, center. So ideally they are correcting their behavior so they shouldn't be cut off from education at all. So I thought it was a brilliant idea and having our product to be used in that, you know, sense I thought was amazing. But he solved the Internet, you know, aspect. I'm uh, like. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not just, you know, in Accra, where you assume everybody has Internet, but in places like this it's mandatory that they don't have.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So then how about, you know, the, you know, rural areas as well. So we have to solve for that as well or partner people, you know, to approach these places.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting. We don't sometimes focus much on, ah, some of this, I'll say disadvantage, challenge people, not the way we know, challenge us to be.

Speaker A: A lot of questions in terms of opportunity. One of the things that I was thinking that we could do again through the talkers, you know, when we wanted social media, Facebook specifically to, you know, become here to be common, the telecom companies were uh, allowing. Right. But there's something that, I mean we could look at, you know, because there's, they have done that work of laying the infrastructure, of course it's for telecom voice, all of that. But we could look at some kind of a partnership and I don't know. Yeah, I'm hoping that they get to

Speaker C: hear this, um, all the measures you get to hear.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I was Thinking of, um, whether you could share a particular situation or a specific example where you saw an impact of edtech on a student, a parent, a lecturer, or a teacher. And how you. I mean, how that was significant and what shift it caused beyond them to even their colleagues or other people around them. If you share an example.

Speaker B: Okay, so, um, I'll go back towards the COVID period. So it also aligns with, um, the. The barriers. So I remember just the week before they're about to close, you know, the school's down. We actually approached one school, and then they said, nah, it's too expensive. We don't want this, blah, blah, blah, you know, um, yeah, it's a white elephant, things like that. And the next week they closed down the school. So then they called, like, yeah, you know, forget what I said. But then could you come in and then train us on how to use your product? Some of our teachers will be at home. But then, you know, uh, would have to use, uh, like, what are you suggesting? So then, I mean, Zoom was a craze at that time. So then would train them using the Zoom. And initially they wanted to use like, WhatsApp. I was like, the WhatsApp thing, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, you can share information, but this is. You can do exercises on, you know, our products and then have it being marked and things like that. So we actually trained them, and the feedback was great. The teacher was like, we didn't know something like this existed. Like, if. If it wasn't for Covid, your headmaster

Speaker C: would have been for this.

Speaker B: So the parents, too, were very happy. Like, you know, our. Our kids are home. They engage, you know, doing something, and then they're learning at specific times. And then the teachers were trained very well because it was that period where you have to stay at home. You get it? And then we were driving to the school and then, you know, setting things up, and then, uh, the teachers will join in. And the sort of response we got from the teachers, these were teachers that you could actually tell that they're passionate about what they're. They're doing, you know, so they'll. They'll tune. They'll tune in, uh, they'll get the process on how to use their stuff. And then if, in case one child couldn't come or couldn't use, um, it for the day, uh, how they want to encourage their parents to actually give them access to a phone to take the exercise or things like that. So for. For us, that period was covered. I would say Covid was a blessing in Disguise for us, because then it also pushed our products, you know, far and wide. Uh, then there was a real use case for it during that period. Those who bought into it before that period, they, they didn't have the problem. But those who were like, you know, they were taking their time with it, were quick to act, you know, like, yeah, uh, come in, let's train. Uh, if you're caught on the road by police, just beg them that learning must go on. So, yeah, so I think it was a very good experience. Um, taught us a lot as well, you know, where technology can do a lot for education, but then you also have to make it in a way where it's accessible and easy to use because you can build the most amazing things. But then when it's put in front of the children, even parents who you would assume that, yeah, they understand, what if it's too complicated, you know, it spoils the whole user experience and somebody would just get, um, you know, bored of the whole ethic thing at once. Yeah. So we learned a lot from that and I'm sure they also, the stakeholders also learned from that as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't have an elaborate story like that, but I know of one person that I helped. So the person, same rural background, experience, came to the investee and then brought their failed paper application, help them, set them up, created an email for them, all of those things because they didn't have that. And four years out of university, they are doing much? Well, uh, some. I know of two people that are into computer science, software developers, things like that. So I see the transformation. I don't, I would not say it's specific to just the ethic per se, but exposing people to the tools that they need to use in this particular day and agent, which we are. And yeah, so that's what I'll share.

Speaker D: Awesome.

Speaker C: So, um, as we get close to wrapping up, uh, maybe I have like two more questions for both of you, but the first one will be what has been, I mean, your hardest moment you faced in the Ghanaian tech space and what opportunity has he unlocked? Uh, or did you unlock or did you see that

Speaker B: the hardest is always how to monetize your, your product is always hard. You know, people, people see education generally as a social impact thing.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So if you're building things in that space, it's still like, yeah, I mean, how much should it cost, you know, or can it be free? You get it. So it's always going to be a challenge where now you have to adapt. I mean, we in the Beginning were like yeah, we build this 500 Ghana CDs.

Speaker C: You know,

Speaker B: the market will show you it doesn't work like that. So, so then you have to come down to the level. Like some, some would say uh, I remember going for a PTA, we used to do a lot of PTAs as well. So they would ask like uh, so if I pay this amount of money and I don't use it as much, does that mean my money is running

Speaker C: like.

Speaker B: So I think they were trying to relate it to when you buy credit credits. Yeah, it's like I'm not using it. So like what happens? Yeah to it, you know. So then we started adapting to, to the customer. Yeah and when you do that it sort of, you know, improves the usage. People come back because in the past you'd have one time user and that's it. And one of our newest products, two, uh, days ago we had a call on how to monetize that one because now we've just been piloting in different schools. So this is um, it's called uh, Kuno Storytime. So basically it's an AI reading diagnostic tool. So it's aimed at um, helping pronunciations, um, trying to identify maybe if you have any you know, uh, learning deficient like dyslexia or something like that, um, how quickly you read because you'd have a 10 year old reading at a 5, 6 year old level.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So we gave it out to a lot of people to use and they're using it and it's gamified as well. So then you have the streaks as well. Like how you haven't duolingo. So you read one story, then it picks that, then you unlock achievements and things like that and, and this, you know it's my head of engineering who is working with the uh, junior developers. And the funny thing is, you know when you think about gamification it's always like male or like guys who are into. But these girls did the whole gamification on their own. I'm like, they presented the thing to me like you guys play like PS5, you know and it's just like from their own experiences, you know. And then they made a thing really good. So we give this product out, people are using it and my head operations, you know she is leading that charge where she'll go into a school. Yeah, we have this, can you use it with. And it's for like the whole school. So now we're trying to monetize it. So we're looking at per story how much Will you charge for that? And because like the numbers are a lot. You could say you could even charge like 50, 50 pesos for a story because you have, you'd have people use the gamification brings them, you know, because then you have the leader table and things are like I want to, you know, if I take this guy on the leader and then you have different schools and I don't know who this is but I know the name and I just want to be on top of him, you know, or ahead of him on the leader table. So then they come back. So it's, it's going to be, to me, I believe it's going to be easy to monetize. It's just getting it into the hands of you know, uh, the people. So it's, it's, it's interesting how you know you just have to adapt to what the market is saying or what your potential customers or clients are saying because the purchasing power is not really there. Yeah, it's not really there. But then if you look at it from if I can have so many people, a hundred thousand people using and I'm charging them this amount per usage, you know, so we're doing a lot of pay as you go. Now in the, in the past we used to think yeah, subscription.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: So if, if I subscribe and it's dead. Yeah. The next month I'm not coming back.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, so then, now a lot of pairs you go or then you're purchasing the thing outright. So like a subject.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You're paying. Yeah. For the year and then I'm done. So. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting how you know, things have shaped up but then we are adapting especially when it comes to um, purchasing power and then you know, pricing our products.

Speaker C: The hardest moment and the opportunity you see in that you faced in um, EdTech or the Ghanaian tech space. The opportunity you see you see in that.

Speaker A: So I think I've said that already, I don't know, maybe just so I'll say the hardest moment in the, I'll not say in the edtech space basically but in the software technology space. And I think two things actually. The first one is when you speak with a lot of Ghanaian owned businesses, they do have a lot of trusts for more foreign companies. So there's that low, I don't know, we kind of come to the table with the lowest kind of reputation. So that's something that we need to work on because I think um, there are lots of Brilliant companies that are really doing a good job now and the story should be making waves now. Most people try to compare what is built locally with what they've seen or heard. They expect the same kind of functionality but then they don't expect the same price. It's a weird mix. So that's the first one. Um, so if you're able to position yourself to have that kind of track record and, and in order to get the track record, I think just like you know, is doing, you just have to start by putting yourself out there and do a lot of free, yeah, free stuff. That's the only way to get the credibility. And I think there should be that shift in perspective. I think our um, technology ecosystem is maturing. Fintech is doing phenomenally well. I think we should see the edtech Agritech, you know, and other spaces coming in. The most important thing for me that is still a challenge is there's a lot more mobile penetration than people having fiscal devices. Uh, so it means we always have to customize what we have. So for instance, if you speak to an institution and you ask them or you want to give them a particular software, one of the key things that they always ask is there mobile version for this? If there's no mobile version for it, you cut down half, probably half of the target audience. So there's still that shift that we need to do in terms of customizing or adapting software to suit um, our mobile devices.

Speaker C: So m. This will be my last question. I mean if you're a founder of the global stage, telling the story about Ghanaian edtech or where you want it to, to be, what story do you want to tell?

Speaker B: So yeah, being in the space like you know, part of the builders. There's so many brilliant builders in the space. It's just we don't, you know, we, we go for these conferences, you know, set up in Ghana and outside and they always say we're building in silos. You know, everybody's building. But then there's so much collaboration that can go on. We just have to identify ourselves. You know, I think there's a lot of push. Uh, there's currently a uh, Ghana um, alliance. Yeah, so, so a very good friend of mine, you know, is, is leading that charge and it's just throwing light on, you know, builders doing amazing things. And you see it in a lot of these tech hubs that a lot of them are coming up with brilliant ideas and then AI ah is actually pushing them to, to do more. So I want people to know that there Are builders here. Yeah, um, they shouldn't, you know, um, the builders themselves, they shouldn't give up on what they're doing. I mean perseverance is, is, is always the, the key to the game. I always say perseverance with some, you know, a slight hint of delusion. So yeah, you need, you need those two things to really do well. So uh, yeah, so the global station, all that very amazing products are going to come out on, out of Ghana. We personally, we have started, you know, you know, spreading um, our wings a bit, you know, back to Tanzania. When I was there in, in May, I met a uh, founder, a co founder of one of the biggest edtechs in Tanzania, very well funded and we discussed, you know, a partnership. So I always say if we want to scale beyond our borders, I don't want to go and set up. Yeah, I want to partner. You know, what they're lacking, I can you know, give them. So then to like m. Tutoring, you know, using mobiles and you know, to book tutors and things. So then we are bringing the Cuno exams into that space as well. So you can tutor and then you know, run an exam, you know, with them. So it's, it's, it's amazing. We've also piloted in um, uh, Cote d' Ivoire through a um, how do you call it, a uh, university or polytechnic over there. So there's so many amazing, you know, builders in the space. They just need that, want light to be shined on them and then you see how, how great they're doing.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, and I, I can't agree more. I think for, for, for Ghana and in fact Africa to stand on the global stage. We can't run the Silicon Valley mindset where it's competition. If we go the competition route, we are too small. Yeah, we can't, we can't. And I think a lot more collaboration. Um, and I think um, there are many people like you said, who are building in silos. I like the initiative with the Africa EdTech alliance and those kind of platforms are what we need. Good enough. We have a lot more tech hubs coming up and I think that should be the strategy where we have people funding these tech hubs given um, the opportunity to um, showcase what people have built in stealth mode I think

Speaker B: and

Speaker A: then just you know, publish it. And I think that's if governments wants to help in any way, if there's any developmental agency that wants help in any way, I think we shouldn't be looking at an individual company. Yeah, we should Be looking at what can they do together in that particular space. I think that's great. Collaboration is our way.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: You know we did an episode a couple of months back and we looked at the, the state of Ghana's tech ecosystem and we rated Etech. I didn't see that at that time. I didn't see much innovation in M. Etech. But you know, getting to CT and looking at um, you know, hearing what you're building, I think you know, is very innovative. And it's uh, yeah it's, it's. I, I now have, you know, my score has gone a little bit higher.

Speaker B: I've done my job.

Speaker C: You've done a good job.

Speaker D: But you mentioned one thing, you wearing a product. Can you talk a little bit more about it?

Speaker B: Okay, so, so this, we actually partnered. So it's the same collaboration. So we actually partnered with uh, a company from, from Egypt. So this is something I even want to touch um, with you. Um, so basically we're infusing you know, our software and then their software on this. So this is basically for school, so identification, um, attendance and then it also has an EPS as well. So basically like for canteens, bookshops and things like that. So you don't have to carry cash. So I go into the canteen. You know, it's a one touch thing if, uh, so we have the card reader but then also phones as well, nfc, you know, phones, you just touch the back, the payment is done. So I'm thinking about it for like universities and then senior high schools as well. They also has a thing for like school buses. You know, when you, you let your child go into the school bus, the identity and then at least pushes a message to the parent that yeah, on the way is on the way. And then he gets to this thing and it taps it again and then you know, yeah, he's on, on campus. So yeah, so this is, this is our foray into um, so like smart wearables, you know, so hardware. So yeah, we've been testing it. I think we got the, the partnership done in May and then we've just, we're just, you know, started testing it. So I want to test with universities and things and then see if they're really interested in things like that. Yeah, so as I said, we're not building just one product, we have several. And a lot of people, that's the same thing. A lot of people see what we're doing, you know, on our social media pages and they're like, yeah, ah, you guys have cool things I'd like to partner with you because they see that they can expand or maybe we can do things that can, you know, actually help them, you know, expand as well.

Speaker A: Oh, that's cool.

Speaker C: Yeah. So inclusion. I have a lightning round questions for you. Over five questions in less than 10 seconds, you should give me the answer. And the first question is a controversial one, but I have to ask, what's one edtech tool you personally use every week?

Speaker A: Not every week, but Canvas. Canvas lms.

Speaker B: So me QNO News. Yeah, it picks news from all the news sites and then, you know, it um, customizes everything for me. So every morning I use that awesome book or app.

Speaker C: What's your favorite way to learn something new?

Speaker A: Because I can search same app.

Speaker C: Okay. What's the biggest misconception about uh, ethic in Ghana?

Speaker B: It should be free.

Speaker A: That just the technology will solve the problem.

Speaker C: Interesting. If you had to design one app for Ghanaian teachers, what feature would you start with?

Speaker A: Attendance tracking.

Speaker B: So, so us teachers complain about, uh, marking. Yeah, you know, marking, uh, exercise. So we have something in R D for that. So we're working on that. Yeah.

Speaker C: Awesome. One way to describe the future of learning in Ghana.

Speaker A: I'll say one word. AI.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's the future.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker C: Awesome. So, um, we asked you close. We want your opportunities. So other opportunities. Master challenge is still open. If you are building any innovative, um, uh, product or tech products, the Mast Africa Challenge will be a place for you to be part the deadline is on the 26th of September and there's a chance to receive up to US$50,000 in equity for your company. Bluestorm Academy is also running a data will be running a Data Hackathon on the 17th and 18th of October in Accra. So if you're interested in um, using real world data to build things in agritech, uh, to solve challenges in data for this hackathon, you have a chance to win 5,000 or chance to win a pool of money up to €5,000. And you can apply with the link attached in the description. And more funding and grants opportunities available on the grant pilot committee. So you can join the grant pilot committee for every funding grant opportunity there. Thank you so much, Daniel and Senior.

Speaker B: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker C: All right, thank you guys. Um, like share, comment and uh, post on social media and tell us what you learned on this episode. See you. Bye.