How We Negotiated Unique Careers With Top Global Brands While Tackling Immigrant Challenges

Hi everyone. Welcome back to here's the Deal, the podcast where we unpack the real dynamics of leadership culture and the future work. These are the insights that are normally not explained in corporate or in universities. These are the stuff that is mostly left unsaid. And for a lot of folks, it is left to discover it on their own. And mostly it is only shared in closed networks. I'm Shujad Ahmed and I'm joined by my co host Giselle here. You know, both as immigrants and entrepreneurs, we know how critical it is to demystify these insights and what leadership really takes. Our goal is to help you lead with clarity and design a career that is both meaningful and purposeful, not just impressive. We both broke through a lot of barriers. We both come from strategy consulting, moved into tech and and now run our own ventures. We've had the privilege of sitting a lot of rooms, some with power, some with pressure. And we've seen what's usually left unsaid with that. Gisele, what are we talking about today? Hey, Shajat. All right, so today what we're talking about is here's the deal on negotiation. And negotiation is an essential leadership skill. Skill. But often this is the most under trained skill for professionals and for a lot of people, myself included, at times, the more negotiation brings up a feeling of discomfort. And for many leaders, this mindset might be holding you back and it might also be holding your teams back to achieving more or greater impact. And so when I think about negotiation now, it isn't simply about deal making or landing that next deal, but it's about building clarity, it's about building trust and alignment, especially in moments of tension where we're seeing that greatly in companies in the greater economy. And so now it feels like this under trained skill is something that we ought to unpack for our followers because it matters more than ever. With AI reshaping roles. I saw a recent Wall Street Journal article that more people are trying to leap and find new jobs. However, the job market is tight. We also have distributed teams. So a lot of dynamics that are shifting from skills to job markets to the general economy. And so negotiation is ever present and you need to be very skilled in getting that done, something very important. And in this kind of environment, you it becomes a foundational skill set. Xujiao, what's your initial take on this? Well, for those who are watching me on the screen or watching this on video, I'm wearing a T shirt. It says are you stressed? And then gives you two options, yes or no. And the no. Is this red scramble stressful scramble? It is. Because, you know, for those who don't know, Giselle is. She's taught me a lot about negotiation in life. She's a massive negotiator in terms of deal making. I learned the skill of negotiation when I was in school, and I appreciated the art and science behind it, but it was still very stressful for me. I'm not the best negotiator, so hence why I wore this shirt. I think it is stressful, but it is necessary. But once you understand it, I think the core of it is if you understand that you are addressing it from a place of values for yourself. And then like any other thing, you're playing a game, but you want to play a game based on your own values, then it becomes less stressful. And I think it is so important. Right now, in this market, we have two extremes. We have one extreme where people are struggling to find a job, or they're in their job, but under a constant fear that they could lose at any point in time. And how do they negotiate? Not only within their current employer, but also as they're trying to find a job, they feel like they don't have any leverage. On the other extreme, we hear these crazy packages that people who are hot right now with AI as well, and they are getting these crazy offers. And we also see that while they are. And people look at them as like, oh, these must be really stars. No. They are also struggling with negotiation. And we've seen a new market open up, at least in Silicon Valley, where people, you know, just like movie stars and sports players, like they have their own agents. There's a whole market opened up of people who are not recruiters necessarily, but they become agents to coach people in how to negotiate for the package if they're being pushed for role and they're taking a percentage chunk of their salary based on it. So on both extremes, there is a lack of understanding of how to negotiate. A, when you don't have the leverage, and B, when you do have the leverage. And so I think it is very, very important. And I learned it the hard way. And the, you know, later on was really beneficial. On how negotiation helped me, not just financially, but just throughout my career. It's fascinating points that you raise because there's in that scenario, two sides of the same marketplace. Really, it's. It's the job marketplace, the war for talent, but the outcomes. I think from one aspect, people think about the outcomes as the total value itself, but to the point that you raise it's it of the values. Of course, we're talking salary compensation packages, those are important. But what seems to be the common denominator, whether you are, you know, entry level or a superstar being recruited from these top tech firms, what you just mentioned is they lack the same skill sets. Absolutely. And I think what really helps you to manage the stress around this on top of other stresses that exist is there is a science to it and an art to it. And I think you're probably one of the best people to teach that. And if you understand that you can manage that stress and you can actually thrive in that environment by understanding the rules of the game and the parameters for the game as well. So I, I would really want you to help us walk through just what's a framework for approaching negotiation and then we can think about, okay, how do we apply it in different situations? Yes, good, good question. So, and what I'll share is I'll share a common like MBA kind of financial framework which you and others have probably heard, which is called the zone of potential agreement. And essentially if you're a negotiator one there's, you know, you have a, like, if you are the employer in this case, you'd want the lowest possible value for say a salary. And then if you're on the other side, if you're the person getting recruited, you'd want the highest possible. Right. And so you're essentially in these two extremes. And generally people say, hey, let's come and meet in the middle, let's figure out the win, win. And the game, if you will, for both of you in that negotiation process, is to find out as much information so that you can. If the pie were this big, you'd want to take as much of the pie as possible if you're the person that's aiming for a higher salary. But of course, if you are the employer, you're trying to minimize that part of the pie. Right. And so that is how business is done today. It is a very common framework. What I would like to layer in is design thinking principles. So when we think about design thinking principles relative to the zone of potential agreement, right. You're thinking, you know, two dimensional, one pie winner takes as much as one can. Right. When we think about it from a design thinking standpoint, it's very human centric. Right. So the framework here, I would say is more around one defining the problem and where the problem before was. We're trying to optimize for a number or minimize for a number here it's more around what's at stake. The stake is a livelihood. The stake, you know, for a person getting the salaries for their livelihood, their value, their worth, and for an employer, their. This is a talent that will take them to growth and new heights and new places. So there's more than at stake than a value. And then the. So that's. First, define the problem. Second is understanding the system. What constraints are there in the system? What are the interests of the different parties? Like what's going to make them move their level levels and what are the emotions at play? Because the reality in negotiation is that if it is highly emotional, even when we think about it from a business stance, look again, if you're the employer, you're trying to get the best deal for the company because you want to minimize your cost and your expenses, right? And so that's not wrong. And at the same time, if you're the person looking for that job, you're also not wrong to say, hey, I'm going to create a ton of value for you guys. You get this upside in your ROI, and, and I'm asking for an additional 2,500 grand. You can, you can afford it, right? So understanding those kinds of dynamics that are at play and what the constraints are very important. And the third thing in the framework is it is possible to co create value. So it isn't only about, you know, this is the pie. How much can I get of the pie? It's hey, how might we co solve this together? You know, perhaps like I get it, Shuja, you don't have the, you don't have the budget. All right, but how can we get creative on this? So now you're talking. The pie is, you know, you're not talking now in the same pie. You're actually talking about expanding the pie broader. Right? So those three things, one, define the problem, two, understand the system constraints and interests and emotions at play. And three, co create value. Make the pie bigger. Okay, and let me play that back. And also let's go through a scenario as well. So number one, so let me just step back. There are three broad aspects of understanding the game of negotiation. Number one is define what is the real problem for both parties, what's at stake here. And for you as the protagonist in the story, for you understand what's at stake here. So that could mean, for instance, if in a good talent market you were negotiating an offer, we're not only just looking at the salary, the financial numbers, you were also looking at maybe the growth later on, career growth that you get you may be looking at benefits, you may be looking at flexibility. Right? Correct. Right. So there are multiple layers. There could be location. Right. Could be commute. Right. So there are multiple things that you have in play that you're trying to negotiate and you're negotiating with a recruiter or a hiring manager who end of the day comes to it boils it down to a number, but you can also figure out if there's other things that you bring in play that are at stake for you. So understand what's the real problem and then when you're understanding the system, which means like what is it that the other side wants and their constraints are and what are your sort of interests? And I love that you said about emotions because hiring managers, end of the day they've gone through a very long process, they want to get back to their work and they want to get done with this. So there are emotions at play where they're now they want to close the wreck, they want to close the rack as soon as possible. Right. And understanding that, how much leverage do they have in terms of where they can move around in the money? And there's generally everyone. If you're a hiring manager in good companies, salaries are in different quartiles, so different ranges. There's a midpoint for a role and normally the compensation team will say target it at the midpoint. What that means is there is a lot of room to move that around. Some companies make it non negotiable and say no, we will just not change the midpoint. If it's a hot market and emotions come into play and someone wants to close their rack and they really like you, they will justify you as a completely different candidate. There's a way, right. So understanding that and then lastly co creating value. Yeah, that it's not coming from a zero sum game. You're trying to come of it from is can it be a net value add for both and can you co create value? One thing I'll add that I still remember from my MBA classes, it was probably the only thing I remember from the negotiation class that I've used in every framework in life is the concept of the batna. Right. The best alternative to negotiated agreement. And I think what that helped for someone like me who did not want to negotiate was understanding that what's your minimal threshold that you're willing to walk away. Right. So if nothing goes through as you want it, have your minimum threshold which is an alternative. Like if you didn't get this, what's the alternative? I'm In a current job, what's my alternative? Right. If I didn't get this job, I'm going to stay here. So that's the minimum I'm going to have. Right. Similarly, if I'm not in a job and applying, you're looking okay, what other options do I have? And if the best alternative is not good right now, then take this and make this new job the next alternative for the other job that you're going to apply. Right. Like that's how I think about it. Let's play this out right now. Right. So if you are someone who does not have the leverage right now, how would you think about these three things? If as you're thinking about career, you're sitting in a company right now or you're applying for jobs right now and you're the market is tight and you want to get something out of your career either financially or career growth wise, how would you negotiate for that? Well, I will actually share a recent experience and share how you should not negotiate and that's a good, that's a good place to start. Always. I'm sharing this because it is informative and I think it might be valuable. So oftentimes and this happened recently I was working with a client the there was a number of total compensation package on the table and he said here it is. What are my counterpoints? And then he proceeded to say for, for this I'm going to counter with this, for this I'm going to counter with that and for this I'll counter with this. And is not is a decent game theory thinking uh, and but I basically paused and was like wait, let's one, let's see what this, what was the difference between today versus yesterday and why do we believe we are here today? And number two why not in the next conversation actually discuss the assumptions. So I'm, you know this, I'm an economist by training and a financial analyst by kind of trade and assumptions make or break the deal. The number is important but the assumptions that drive the number or in this case a set of numbers are equally important. So I would say a good way to not get to a better place than where you are now is to literally counter attack where where that person is. I think what you ought do instead is you know, taking from the framework is what's at stake and why are these numbers here? What was the delta between last time and this time? And why do we believe we are here to be true versus you said 10, I want 15, let's do 14 and then let's see what you can come back with next time. Right. But instead if I said, you know, this is not as I expected. I just kind of want to understand like, you know, what's the thinking? What's the thinking? I love that is the, you know, there's. I'll share three examples. One, I remember there was a role I was taking as like a massive pivot I was doing and we're gonna think of it as like a startup within a bigger company. And in there when the recruiter gave me the package. And again, this is within hr. So like everyone's gonna talk to everyone, not just the hiring manager is also in hr, also related to compensation. I decided not to negotiate either. What they offered me was already way more than what I had thought of. And the reason I did not, because there was a lot of growth potential there. And I was like, right now I'm going in, it's a startup, there's a lot of volatility. I want to make sure that I create the right credibility. There is a lot of growth potential. I'm already getting way more than what I had sort of asked for. Let's see, go there and create value, intangible value with what, how you show up there. And what happened was I did not negotiate. It was like a shocker for the recruiter and for. But the hiring manager appreciated. And similarly, a few other people were also joining this team who negotiated everything out of it. And this is pre GDPR day. So it was very easy for everyone to go and see interview notice. And it was very clear to everyone walking in that, you know, you left a bitter taste towards the end because they negotiated exactly how you explained it, where they just started making it like a counterpoint as if a law. Certainly after 10 interviews you were like a human. And the 11th interview you're still a human, but you turned into a sort of a litigation lawyer right now. Right. And you made it very cold. On the flip side, when I was a manager at an intern, amazing person, fought for that person and and got them a very good deal. But the moment they got into negotiating their full time offer, not negotiate getting a full time offer, which is a big deal at that time, they certainly turned into a different person because they had gone in and practiced and taught themselves that this is how things work. You should always negotiate. You should always negotiate, but should not negotiate like a robot. You should be like a human, talk to the other person. And I love that frame which you ask, okay, what is the thinking behind this? And rather than asking the Thinking because the person does not know how much I went out of the way to create it. Similarly, when I was being hired, I could realize that someone was taking a risk on me. So that hiring manager probably would have gone out of the way to approve a role and take a risk on me. And if I push them right now, it is going to leave a bitter taste. And I'm already getting more than what I wanted. Let me build a really good relationship. Because guess what? It's not about getting the job. You also have to thrive in that job as well. Right. And with that intern full time, it left something in my mind saying, you know what, this person is showing a different color, they're doing the right thing for themselves. But I also know that they have multiple colors. And the third example I'd share is outside of this. For any career negotiation. You were really helpful in that for me. I remember a couple of years back I wanted to go in and I, you know, heavily burnt out. There's a lot of work. I wanted to take a break. I want to take a sabbatical. But you know, as I said, stress when you are negotiating inside a role for career, it becomes more blurry. When you're applying for a role, when you're applying for a number and a promotion, right. It is a different thing. Right? Because the, the thing is there's few numbers in front of you, very tangible. And you know, the constraints in terms of career growth and getting flexibility in your career is a. It's a wide spectrum. And sometimes you can walk in, going in acting so frustrated that the other person as well, who's also coming in from a meeting and frustrated and you end up asking something which is not the norm in your regular one to one, they say, you know, today I want to talk about this. You don't. You basically have opened up to an unconstrained conversation while negotiation, like you said, understand the constraints. And you walk me through it before walking. And you said, all right, Shojat, what is success out of this meeting? Like, what is it that you want to achieve out of this meeting? And which also led to a follow up question. What is it that you do not want to compromise? Right? What are the emotions? What are the interests? What is it that you really want? And I said, well, I actually just want to get a break in the middle. I want to take a breather. I love what I'm doing. So all the things that I had sort of created in my head were actually non issues. The actual issue was I just need a break. And what is the best way to approach that? And what can you offer to your manager that will make it easier for them to give you that? Right, right. And I was like, oh, wow. And so what you do is while it's a wide spectrum, you can define the constraints yourself in that situation. And that was really, really helpful where we both ended up creating value for each other when we went in. And then ever since then, I've seen, you know, I've helped others do that following that same framework. Yeah, I will add, I will add a layer to it. And again, for folks who are listening or watching, you know, we're not, this is not, we're not trying to do a class on negotiation. We're going to help you understand what's involved, what's the good and bad. And then also, as usual, talk about, you know, what does it mean for leaders and especially what does it mean for immigrant leaders and immigrants in general. I will add one thing, the same framework thing right now with AI coming into play, we all have, you know, chatgpt, Claude and others as our personal therapists, as our personal coaches, if you want to understand the extent of how much everyone's using it as a personal therapist. OpenAI released GPT5 and took away all the previous models. And the uproar from the public meant they had to reopen everything back. Told you how much they were using and relying on this as their personal coach. And I think if you think about what Giselle just explained as a framework, you can put that into ChatGPT. You can also give it Personas and say, okay, I want to now do a conversation where I want you to maximize the shiz out of it for me and see how that conversation plays out. And you'll get an idea that, wow, do I want to be that person and also do it in another way. What exactly like Giselle said, ask the question, can you walk me through the thinking? And you can give that Persona chatgpt that you want it to not sort of break relationships, but still get to an outcome, but do it in a very, not politically correct, in a very diplomatic, but in a way that is a net value creator for both parties to even one up it. You could do it using voice so that when you hear back, you get an idea. This is how it would sound like if you were the receiving party. If you also want to add another layer, which I've seen some learned from some friends who did it really well right now who are applying for jobs is put all of this into NotebookLM and NotebookLM converts it into a podcast and go for a walk and let it give you a podcast of how the negotiation story went. Like you can actually simulate a conversation between two people and you're like, oh crap, this is how it would look like. So like you basically are watching your own movie play out. Highly, highly recommend because I think before that it was good to hear frameworks but you could not practice it. And if you practice it was like very sort of like sugar coated cases that normally, you know, schools give. You now have a personal coach to practice this with and build this skill set. I agree. And I do like the, the ability to scenario with a ChatGPT or other your favorite AI tool. There is one thing that I wanted to underscore from what you shared is for most folks, it could feel like when you are in negotiation for something, like say, you know, maybe you're in negotiation for something now, your ma. Your, your goal is maximizing that particular negotiation and to your point is it could leave. I think you mentioned a, you know, bad taste in your mout. And I think the point that I want to underscore is that this is one negotiation you have to think about what is, what is the brand that you are articulating in the negotiation. Because that, that situation and the way in which you negotiate can say, speak volumes of the way you might be as a colleague or a leader. And so think about the longer term play. I think about the longer term play. Oh yeah, that, that reminds me, you know, when we think about like if you were Gen Z college student early in career and you know, common term I used to hear from early in career talent when mentoring was like, oh well, what do I have to offer? Like what is my leverage? I'm at the mercy of someone else. They're like, no, no, you're figured out right now. You may not have the experience and the skills, but you can maybe offer in terms of grit and creating more value doing sorry for that role that others may not be able to do it. Right now you offer that and offer help to people. That doesn't mean you just do it for free. You can reach out to people and say, you know, if I can help you with this, it will also help me in terms of my experience get it done. And then after you've done it a few times and build a credibility, you can then ask for that, okay, you know what, this has been great and I want to make sure that, you know, I get compensated for it or you know, so there's ways but make sure that the. There are. There's a. If I think about like a x axis xx, I've had this learning and earning journey, right that you. You learn and based on that increase your earnings. But you have to earlier on in your career. There's like waves where you learn more. It increases your earning, puts you in a different queue. Then go for learning. But the longer it gets and you build skill sets that earning period jump is more prolonged. But if earlier on, if you try to sort of press the button to maximize only for earning, you may get an earning jump but you may not get to learn a lot, right? So right now you may not have the lever for earning, but you do have the lever for learning and go with that. Okay, I want to keep my brand that I'm someone who's eager to learn. I am willing to put in the hard yards. I am not doing it for free, but I will also not doing for a crazy amount. I will work with you, build that experience and then see. Okay, what's the next step? Now is a stage that I need to earn in there. So I'd like to ask you what does negotiation mean for teams and leadership today? I think it is a everyday muscle that you have to practice and it is probably one of the best muscles. Why? Because as a leader you are making decisions and helping remove roadblocks for your team. If the higher up you go parts majority of the meetings focus on saying no and very few times saying yes. So the higher up in our organization you go. So what that means is you're constantly negotiating and the team also has to learn how to negotiate because there's finite resources that everyone's competing for to get. Because everything else, everything can't be a priority and everything can be a just. If you are more of a frontline leader, you are. You should be spending more time helping explain to the team what is we are trying to optimize for. As higher up you go, you have a team of more senior and seasoned leaders. They already understand the rules of the game as well. So it becomes easier for you to just be focused on the decision you are negotiating. When you do your one on ones, you are negotiating between your performance reviews. You are negotiating. When someone asks for more resources, you are leading them. By not just giving an authoritative answer, you're helping them understand that what are we really trying to optimize for and then how should we all align together on this? How you handle those moments? I think that is the same principles that you just talked about. In your framework it is negotiation that's where it applies. As you are speaking up for your team in broader forums, in leadership forums, you have to understand that just by speaking up because it's the right thing to do, that speak up is also a negotiation. You have to understand what does this room really value. And if I'm going to speak up, I'm going to ask for something. But if it's really outrageous, the politics in the room can easily dismiss you as someone that, who does not understand the constraints of the organization as you speak up. And I think it's something I learned from you. You mentioned it once was a leadership restraint. Understanding that when you speak up, what are, what is, does everyone value and what do you really want to fight for? What is worth fighting right now that is within that game, that has a high likelihood that people will listen and are open to negotiate and have a follow up chat and align with you and say, okay, maybe you know, we can make this happen for you. And very smart. And what does this mean? What's the, so what follows for immigrants, especially our immigrant friends and leaders? You know, I say, you know, as, as immigrants, you know, we, especially in the US or in North America, I guess in any western organization or western environment, we try to be the model minorities. I think there's two extremes. One extreme is where immigrants just, just for the sake of negotiating, they will negotiate everything, which earlier we were discussing in our scenarios and not realize that it's not just about the numbers, it's also about branding and your relationships that you need to think about it. I think I can talk about myself personally, why I jumped into consulting. I was in a very comfortable role in industry. But when you're in industry, people come to you in your function and ask for help because you have something to offer so you're actually not forced to negotiate. But then as I realized that the people who grow in their careers, they actually go out and make a sale, they go out and mobilize others. And I felt a lot of my immigrant community were very satisfied. And if you look at the careers that we pick up as well, right is engineering, medicine, right? Finance, accounting, where someone's coming to you for you to design something or get something done. And at least in my community was like, and if you don't know anything, you're probably going to sales. But then I realized that the people who really grow know how to sell. And I think that is a blind spot for me. So I forced myself into consulting because I realized that in consulting you're always pitching to be on the right project and with a client as well, you are on top of your game. So I think that helped me break barriers as an immigrant. And I feel I won't talk about represent all ethnicities, but my general learning has been that we keep ourselves in a limiting factor of, hey, I will do my good work, I will put in the hard work and I will be rewarded for it. No, first you got to understand what is the hard work that is actually valued. What is a smart work that is actually valued. And you do need to go and represent yourself. And marketing is negotiation. When you come to the U.S. you know, a lot of non American cultures fear that, you know, everyone's like loud in a meeting and they're representing themselves. That is because marketing is negotiating for yourself. And you have to learn that in other cultures it may not be right if you're. And I've helped with clients as well who, let's say, come from Europe and say, you know, we just, we are used to an organization where we just say what is the right thing to say and we don't have to over market it. You have to in the US you have to generally in North America. Right. And that's where realizing that don't dismiss marketing and sales. Remember, there are negotiation that you need. There are negotiation tools that you need to be able to do the good work. And I feel for immigrant and immigrant leaders, this is a key thing for them to constantly practice and learn because we are so used to listen, I'll just, you know, whatever comes to me, I'm good with it, right? Or I'll negotiate, but I'll negotiate the wrong way versus, like, okay, maybe there are the barriers that we have put in our mind of what's possible. Maybe the ceilings are wrong. Maybe there's a lot more that's possible. And I just need to ask. But ask while understanding what is available, what's in the game, right. I think at least for me and the culture that I come from, there's. There's significant cultural influences that impact or has traditionally impacted the way I personally have thought. So for instance, there's virtue. And number one, being humble. Number two, being grateful for the opportunity. Like be grateful you live in the United States. Right. Why must one negotiate? And then I think the third thing is don't rock the boat. So I think when you have those, you know, for me, coming from a culture where it's, it inevitably says you don't need to be so bold as to negotiate more. Just be grateful for what you are being offered and with respect to that, with deep respect, in the United States and in other cultures, negotiation is seen as a very strategic leadership move. And once I realized that, thanks to being in consulting for many years and also early days in investment banking, for me, what was critical is to learn the language that was comfortable for me to negotiate. So. And I'll share a few with you that might be helpful as well. So one is the words, you know, what would we need to believe to make this happen? You know, if you're negotiating for a salary compensation package and, you know, Sujat, before you were negotiating time off, like a sabbatical, what would we need to make this happen? We, not me, we. What would we need to make this happen? And then it's something along those lines is, how could we make this work? How could we make this work? And those one, very strategic leadership words. And two, they say the same thing as, this number does not work for me. Can we find a different number? But now you're, you know, saying, how might we make this work? And what's the belief system that we need to change? So for me, that was a big unlock because those two sentences feel comfortable for me and they don't disrespect the. The virtues and values that come from my culture that I hold very true. But also, I set myself up for greater and impactful opportunities. So I want to share that because it might be impactful for other immigrants. Absolutely. And let me add few things to that. I think many years back in consulting when I, you know, finally spoke up about a pay raise, and I said, you know, I've been very loyal. I love what I'm doing. But I have now I have a kid. In about seven to eight months, I will feel like that I'm being lowballed and I'm giving more to the company than getting back. And it will start to hurt me. The realities will start to hurt me of life, financial reality. And the partner I spoke with said, you know what? I was waiting for you to say this because. Because that's the beauty of consulting as well. That they're very real with you. Yes. Because they're like, we realize, you know, that part of your development has been whatever cultural norms that, you know, you believe in that make you who you are. At the same time, some are holding you back that you, you know, you are being a very, very loyal employee. We love that. We want you to push on stuff, because as you grow in your career, you're going to be a deal maker, even if it's a deal maker for yourself. Right. And not for the company. You, you have to. So it's a pain. And we know that you have a. Immigrants have a high threshold to pain and they will not ask unless really wanted. And we believe that when we ask we should get it because we never asked for it. Right. And it's like, no, no one owes you anything. It's not the same system. Right. It's not the same system. So you have to ask for this and be more vocal about it. And I was just thankful that I went through some. Some trainings around it as well in there. And number two, I will say from my own culture is that we are from this religious practice as well. We are recommended that you should always bargain. It's been misused as bargain means squeeze everything out of a deal. No, it's bargain that every deal should feel fair to both parties. I think that's exactly what you just said. That is the. It should feel like co created and so that's what it should feel like that it's for. I need something, but you also need something and both of us should agree on it and be happy with it. If we're not, it's not the right deal. And with that, here's the deal. On negotiation, I think negotiation there's a lot. It can be stressful, but it can if you apply it in a framework way, use AI as well to practice it. See how it feels and how it feels for you and the way you're comfortable and also figure out how do you stretch the boundaries of comfort while still sticking to your values. It is critical. It is critical, especially in this tough market. And with that I would say thank you for listening to us. We're going to wrap this up today. Make sure that you know you like, subscribe and share this. We are both on video, but we're also on audio as well. Across Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music and on video on YouTube. Till then, goodbye. And if you have any thoughts for future episodes and topics that we want to cover, send those thoughts our way. With that, thank you. Thank you.