How to Craft Career Pathways in a Tough Market | Insights for 2025 Grads | S2 E1

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hello, everyone and welcome to here's the Deal. This is our new format where we're going all full on on video and thanks to all the feedback that everyone provided in the first season. So really excited to kick this off. This is a show where we unpack the challenges of leadership, culture and future work with a focus on giving you a fresh perspective. And it'll give you some unexpected inspirations to our discussion. My co host, Giselle joins me. Both of us come from a strategy consulting background and then we entered into tech and from there we also ventured into the entrepreneurship journey that we're on. Our goal here is to help you get better informed with insights around how the business world really operates. The, uh, behind the scenes deals that normally are only kept for like, privy rooms. Both of us have been in different rooms in highly privileged situations as well. And both coming up as immigrants as well. We know the value of breaking this apart and sharing that with others so that you can shape a more meaningful career, have a more impactful career, and design a more purposeful life for yourself as a leader. With that. Gisele, what's the deal today?

Speaker A: All right, Shijad, thank you for that wonderful introduction. Hello everyone. We're excited to be in this format with you. So what's the deal for today? The deal for today is really a dedication to our new graduates, class of, of 2025. We are inspired by you and as such, our goal here is to share insights and also kind of maybe rules of the road that you might want to keep in the back pocket as you begin your career. So I'm a trained economist, so I love starting with data. And if you've seen, uh, Shujat's shirt, he also really loves data of all kinds of. So today we're going to talk a little bit about excellence. So graphs of the week. Inspiring. So we're going to talk a little bit about some interesting information that might help shape the business environment that you're walking into. New grads. An, uh, interesting thing that we found is that 29% of tasks that are typically assigned in a workplace and assigned to entry level roles are, are now being augmented by artificial intelligence or AI tools. This is significant. And so large questions around, you know, what kind of tasks and what does that mean for you as a new grad in terms of adding value? And another interesting data point to kind of kick us off here is, I'm sure you have heard this in so many different formats, whether it's news outlets, maybe, or family and friends, but it's an uncertain and volatile world economy, business environment, and a volatile job market. So statute that just came in is that 49% of employers say that they're more cautious about hiring new grads because of economic uncertainty. So with these two data points in the backdrop, we want to unpack that for you. And what's the. So what, what's the deal now that you're walking into this business environment? And so with that, Sujat, I'd love your insight. What's your perspective? Kick us off.

Speaker B: Okay, well, thank you and thank you for getting us on this topic. Giselle, to everyone. We wish we had, like, gowns and hats to celebrate with you, but we're going to go with this shirt and Giselle's lovely backyard view.

Speaker A: Uh, we did discuss that though, folks. I was going to pull out my, my Chicago graduation gown and. But just picture us in that.

Speaker B: Yeah, mine was with, uh, UPenn, and they were, you know, they just took it back and we took it for a rent, but I should have owned it. But you know, just reiterating your stats, you're basically saying about like one third of the tasks are likely to get automated or in some way sort of become really commoditized and they may shift away from you. And then we're seeing right now about half of like the employers believe. Right. Or having some level of confidence in, uh, hiring new grad. And you know, this is as we were preparing for this podcast, when I look up at stats as well, it is pretty compelling. So before I step into the steps for the new grads, you know, generally we see that when and historically, if you're graduating in a recessionary market, right. You generally, even if the market improves later on, that cohort earns about 10 to 15% less over the next decade compared to those who would have entered in a more stable economy. I mean, we've seen it ourselves when we graduated and we saw the impact on cohort over that time. So just put that into perspective that historically it is a big deal if you're graduating in this economy. On top of it, they are graduating in an unprecedented. I know unprecedented is a word that gets thrown around, but this is really unprecedented. And here's why. Right? So if you look at the recent grad unemployment. Right. I'm just looking at the numbers. It is right now for recent graduates, it's about 5.8% in the U.S. this compared to the average unemployment rate, which is about 4.2%. So it's saying about 1.6 percentage points and almost about more than 30% difference for new grads compared to everyone else. This is also the highest ever since 2021. So everyone remembers 2021 pandemic, people graduating just after the pandemic. And we also look at underemployment is pretty high. Underemployment basically is that you graduated but you're not working in areas that are related to your degree. Right. So historically this is really, really high. Then why does it matter? Because you know, we are in a market where Gen Z. Right. So where a lot of these new grads are part of it roughly makes up about 1/3. Right. Hitting one third of the workforce. We are also seeing this globally as well. And then even look at us from a US perspective. And right now, just today LinkedIn produced their confidence survey report that they do, which is basically they ask employers as well as both at ah, different levels of the company to figure out how confident are they about their skills. And you know, so about 2/3 of new grads or fresh hires are like, we feel like if given the opportunity we have the skills to do well in this changing landscape. Right. That Giselle was mentioning where one third of the task may get commoditized. But when look at the executives, what only 1/3 said they have real confidence that the uh, early in career folks, new grads and those who are graduating now will really be able to catch up and have the skills to perform well. So there's a huge gap. Right. So to step back to anyone right now, giving or about to give commencement speech is going to try to inspire you. But let's just set this. We are headed into a unprecedented time and in a market where the work is cut out for new grad and there's very little belief even for those who are gatekeepers around if they can really make something of an economic opportunity for themselves, that is a big deal.

Speaker A: Mhm. If I were a new grad stepping into the business world and digesting what you're sharing, it feels like a world in disarray and also hard. And I might be wondering what should I be doing to prepare for this. And let's talk about kind of the macro view from a business standpoint, I suppose the question would be knowing some of these numbers and let's step into, you know, the kind of the dynamics, what let's assume that someone has a job and they have a job offer in this marketplace in which congratulations to you, that is already a huge milestone in and of itself. So for those, so uh, let's take the view for those who have a job. And then next, for those who are still the market looking. So Sujat, let's start with, for those who have a job and they're starting sometime between July and September, what would you, what advice would you give them as they start in their new roles?

Speaker B: So I think it's important to understand that, okay, well these, these are macro numbers that we're looking at. These are indicators that the market is bad. Uh, also before I answer that, stepping back and saying, okay, so what are the underlying themes when they're entering a workplace? So right now, when they're entering a workplace, right now, over the last two to three years and then more recently this year, high level of economic volatility. Right. That you and I had predicted earlier this year that this is going to happen. And that's what's happening. The volatility in the job market. There've been layoffs, there have been employers who've been sort of pulling a U turn on culture saying, forget flexibility, everyone come back into the office. Right? Forget about perks, work life balance. We just need to buckle up. And if not, then we're going to put AI in anyways and we need to have a, uh, massive growth in productivity. So as they're entering the workplace, imagine you are joining three months in. You join a team in your team, understand what's the environment those people are sitting in right now. There is macroeconomic uncertainty. They don't know where prices and the economy is going to head. They also don't know internally when their leaders who created a trust deficit with them, um, if, when and how AI is going to be brought in and they become redundant. They are not sure if they're going to be invested in from a skilling perspective. They also are not sure like okay, what, what does the next month, two month, three month looks like. They are also heavily sensitive on being territorial and protecting their job. Right. Humans get into a survival mode. So with that context, if you're entering in this place, you can really, when I entered was like a similar situation. When I graduate, my advice would be I would give three advices for those who are, who have a job. Number one, right now you are trying to fit in when you enter. Try to understand this landscape and try to understand what is top of mind and what is of high value right now for everyone. Knowing that while there might not be a lot of confidence saying that what skills do you bring to the table? The skill you do bring to the table is being able to hustle, willing to learn, be willing to Go beyond whatever role has been given to you and you have the benefit of AI right now to learn a lot of stuff that would have taken you some time and with experience to learn about a function. And so that's number one. Number two, I would say to power homer one and put it on steroids. I would be whatever job you're entering, whatever industry you're entering, look at how AI is playing into it. What are the publicly available AI tools and play with them. Because maybe the company you're entering, that company has put guardrails for employees to not use those tools. But if you play around and see, hey, what is the impact going to be on this role and my broader team and my function, you are coming in with a perspective that probably a lot of folks senior than you in the company do not have. You are basically showing that you are bringing in value that you know about AI, which in itself is a skill and a valued skill right now. And then the third thing I will say is keep your eye out for the bigger picture. You are right now playing and entering a job market. You're joining in from a financial security perspective. Put bread on the table, heavily savings, build some financial capital for yourself, but keep an eye out that okay, maybe a year, two year in that I do this job, I build these skills, I gather capital. What is it that I really want to do and where can I not be? Another stat in that trend that I graduate in a recessionary market and longer term I'm going to have less earning potential. You also have an opportunity to say, hey, where else is there an opportunity where I can go create something of my own, Keep that and for that use your employer's platform and see is there a way that I can experiment? Can I market myself because I'm part of an employer? Can I see what else is happening in the company? Go talk to people and learn from them. Experiment on yourself. Because the next seven to eight years is you experimenting and becoming a new kind of a profile that doesn't exist right now. Mhm.

Speaker A: Those are all really great advice and you know, I wish we had something like this when we were graduating. Core data, the realities of an economy in the marketplace, but also the non PC truths. Right. What I would add to what you shared is something that I tried to embody and I think you as well, uh, which is to be an Olympic learner. What we shared before is, you know, 30% of the tasks will go away, they'll be done by AI. And the long and short of it is folks may not have that much confidence in you as you are joining because you are the newcomer. And the best thing that you can do for yourself is to increase your rate of learning and look out for those opportunities to learn new things along that same path. If I were in your shoes, I'd be asking, well, what should I be learning? When you're stepping into a new company, an undervalued thing that people may not spend as much time on, that I would share with you in order for you to create a success path for yourself is to learn the language of that company. What does that mean? Sometimes it's, you know, people will say learn the culture. Um, but since this is, here's the deal, I will share very tactically what you should be looking out for. Uh, I think one is the literal language each company has a way of speaking. An example of this is he and I both come from a, uh, management consulting background. And for me personally, I started out my career in investment banking. And those two industries themselves have their own pace, vernacular and kind of speed in which a business happens. And you know, personally, when I transitioned into the tech space to LinkedIn, it also had its own culture, pace of doing business, and specific language. And so I think observing and understanding what are the words that people are saying, what is important, what do people ask of on, and just kind of the general pace of delivery, I think that will be very, very important.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I was thinking as soon as you start talking like, oh, you know what it is? This is something someone had told us when we were starting in, and over the years, you know, with the years that we've gathered of experience, you take it for granted. So for example, on language, there is an analysis on this again, so I'm going to geek out bit on this. The book is called Magic Words. Right. One of the analysis done there using LLMs was the way we talk and write versus when you join a company or any team and the way that team speaks that language, if it is similar, you have a really high likelihood of success of fitting it. If it's dissimilar, you have a high likelihood of future growth because it represents that you're thinking differently and you're basically a culture add to that. But when you're coming in in this environment, you try to learn the language and figure out how do you show that you fit in while also very strategically figuring out where there is room to add in your flavors. And once you've built a social equity within the organization, then go and start figuring and adding on and be more assertive in what else you bring in. Now this goes as basic as, you know, I joined in oil and gas, highly political, very slow, very capital, heavy industry, eight to four. And if I stayed five minutes beyond four, they'd be like, what are you doing? You're probably not doing your work right. And they threw a lot of money at you as an engineer so that the first couple of years you are basically you're locked in and after that it plateaus and basically you can't go anywhere else. You're stuck in all income. But something as basic as coming off from college. We have a team meeting and of course everybody's like, oh yeah, of course. And uh, the team meeting is during lunchtime. Anyone can bring in lunch. And there's no mentoring, there's no coaching. Of course there's some street smarters which are going in. And don't take your lunch in during having a meeting because it might piss off someone for lack of better term. And in a good welcoming environment, people would not care. But I'm saying in that very old school environment I went in, I was like, oh, this is like everyone's knives out, they're measuring, they're looking at you from an every possible way. No lunch, who talks what kind of way, right? How do you put people down if they're not engineer experts, engineering experts, and everyone's trying to one up each other. And you learn that just like in school, in college, the real language you get to learn is at the lunch table as you're joining. Make sure you're just not sitting on your desk. Go out with the team for lunch, chat with them. That's when you know, people are relaxed. After work, uh, if you can try to have a chat with people, go and understand, you know, where the guards are down and understand that language, right, that this team speaks. That does not mean you're trying to not be yourself, you're trying to understand so that you can then play your game, fit in M. So that you can also figure out, okay, how do you add, uh, to this team? And I think that is key.

Speaker A: Very true. And I want to also underscore a point that you raised just now which is, you know, kind of going to the lunch table and, and basically your what, what your job to do is you network and you network to not only learn, you know, language, but you're networking. So this is your success path. And again, you know, I wish that someone would have shared with me that as you start out your career, look, the reality is you are the person who is meant to deliver, literally, you have to do the stuff that your team is expected out of you. And then your challenge is about time. Do those activities that you're meant to do. So, for instance, when I was in investment banking, my job was to run the analysis, do the, you know, financial models, and then create the pitchbooks. And also, I should have been networking even more. And so I want to underscore that it will feel like a lot because it's like, wow, I have to, one, learn a new job, two, actually deliver on my job. And then three, go out to lunch with people. And so be smart about how you spend your time. And then tactically speaking, they don't have to happen in the same day or the same week. So think about your. What does your calendar look like for the month? Month, and how were you building those things in doing great work, learning something new and meeting new, uh, people.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so I'll add two things there. One is, it may sound a lot of work, but, you know, this is the foundation you're setting for yourself. You figure out, where can you be a utility player, where can you help others go faster, where can you take off, load from others? Because once you do that, you're going to learn a lot. So, for instance, when I would quote someone as a fresh MBA grad and they spent two years in consulting and left. If you spend enough time in consulting, you then realize that you're not just making slides. Right. You are. It's an apprenticeship model. So you could either have a perspective that I'm, um, two years making slides, or it could be like, I am, um, in a, uh, highly privileged room where something very ambiguous and complex is being discussed. And I may be the scribe for others, but I am learning stuff, which is, you know, people can't even learn in 10 years if they're in industry. Try to be the scribe, but also pick up. Okay, what is it that you meant? Right. Uh, be a utility player. And then people will also lean in. They'll spend extra time to say, hey, this is how we think. This is our mental model. So that you can learn from. You are gathering wisdom. Right. And so don't pick any role as if, you know, this is like a basic role. No, that role is opening doors for you as long as you have your ears open there and eyes open while you're there. The second part, I would say is, what if you enter the workplace, you're happy, you're excited that you have this job and you're grateful. You've Thought about, this is the industry, this is what I'm going to do the next two, three years. And the best advice I got from retail recent grads was the first five years at least do not think about earning. Just think about where you're going to get to be learning. And whatever you think is going to be your job, you're probably going to change it 10 times in five years. So be ready to move around and just don't be locked into one thing. You will realize it later on. And in hindsight, that was the best advice I got. So what if you are, uh, entering the workplace? You start, you look at the team, you look at the place and you're like, I hate all of it. Like I do not want to go to work at all. Uh, what did I get myself into? That is completely fine because it is a difficult transition. That doesn't mean you have to adjust in a way to change yourself. What you should do is look at what is the best thing I can learn from this situation, what does it. And um, Giselle is a master negotiator. She's taught me a lot in my life as well. What is it that you want to get out of this time? And if you spend a year, two years, and you're like, okay, I will get some financial capital, what am I going to learn? And then is there a network? And then what else do I want to go and explore so that I can either take a break afterwards and go build it or use this as a launching pad to go somewhere else. And I think that is key as you think about it versus getting frustrated about it as well.

Speaker A: Mhm. So let's shift gears and turn to speak with folks who are still in the job market. And I think the caveat here is everything that we've shared now that around folks that have found a job, have a job offer and are starting soon. Those all apply to you once you get your role and hopefully soon. But we, we want to chat a little bit about that and let's unpack that. If we were on your shoes show Shujaad, if this is, we're recording this as of May 15th and I have a traditional kind of business background, so there's a very specific recruiting timeline for finance and consulting related roles. If this were me today, I would be highly concerned because I should have gotten a job offer no later than January or February. And so for those who are still on the market, what perspectives can we share with them? What should they be thinking about now?

Speaker B: So this is where if I was standing at the podium and after having shared all the sort of the doomsday scenario that bad market, bad employment, people don't want to hire you, people don't believe in you. And they're like, okay, so what do we do? And I think this is where I would flip it. And I think this is one of the best times to be graduating. You have a job, great, but don't take it for granted. Like I said earlier, but if you don't have one, this is one of the best opportunities that you can have right now. You can either choose to be part of the trend of unemployment and that longer term you're going to have lower economic potential or realize that you yourself are a trend, a uh, massive trend for upside. There are a lot of the companies and the gatekeepers in the companies are missing out on. Why do I say that? You are graduating right now. You represent a demographic that is going to be about one third to quickly 40% of the workforce bigger than the customer base as well for a lot of companies, uh, you understand that the folks sitting inside companies understand very little about you. You are a demographic that has digital data. You've gone through some very interesting years, last couple of years and as we know, data from the surgeon general as well. You feel high level of loneliness and disconnect and ah, you want in person connections as well. In a world that is getting more and more digital and now run by AI as well. What that means is those sitting in the companies, the companies themselves, those think about business, are disconnected from what this big portion of a market would be looking for. So where you have an opportunity is number one, you have an opportunity to build businesses because AI is available, you know your market really well, you could build out something for your own demographic. You will experiment, build like something at small scale. So for example, at college you probably saw uh, you, you interacted with a diverse set of people that you probably will not get in companies right now. And you have those use cases, problem cases, and people that have built relationships that they can talk to you openly. With AI, you can quickly build a product that you know, it may take a traditional company a long time to build, even building a prototype. Think about being a solopreneur. Think about this market, think about products that bring value to this market and you will fail a lot of the times. But if you are doing that over the next year to two years and you hit off on something that does become successful, even mildly successful, you have built knowledge and experience that the companies are going to be lagging behind and when they go out and look for who understands this market, how do we serve this market, how do we build products for this market, Guess what? People sitting inside companies would not know. And I'm not saying just out of like this as a hypothetical. There are examples during my time as well. Social media was just coming up. I know friends who were, you know, for the first two years doing a job as a, uh, as a guard, like a security guard in a grocery company and then studying in the night. But one thing they were doing, they were good on social media. They were teaching themselves, could not find a job. They're like, okay, how do I put this perspective? I have a perspective, I have no experience around this. They started putting up a blog, they started being very active on social media. That in blogging was just new and they were sharing very informed perspectives and based on that they were able to talk to other people, were experienced and gather their perspective as well. Few years then when some of the top companies were investing in digital marketing, these were the people who were hired. The way hiring was happening had changed as well because traditionally everyone else would just show up with their resume. For these people they just pulled up their iPad and the hiring manager just put up their blog and they're like, you wrote this, this is your collection. These are your perspectives. This is what we want to pitch because we don't even know how to do this right. So you have a chance to leapfrog if you realize that you yourself are sitting on a digital trend with AI coming in as well. And on top of it, a demographic trend that a lot of people are not going to understand. We're sitting in corporations right now. So think of it that you yourself are a massive incubator. The people you hung out with and had fun with are sort of like users and customers that others would die for to get data on. And you can build solutions authentically to help solve their problem. That is where. So to sum it up, why I said do not become a statistical trend of unemployment. Use that and realize you yourself are a trend that has a lot of upside. If you're willing to put the hard work in and you have all the tools right now, especially with AI, uh, and the cost of making a product going really low, that you can run this and if that means in the part time you have to get a job just to pay the bills at any job, that's fine. Build this, build this as a side gig and then make it a full time gig in two to three years you'll Be thanking us, hopefully, and yourself for investing in you. This is an ultimate opportunity.

Speaker A: So, Shuja, there's so many nuggets of great advice there. And what jumped out at me was what you said, you know, don't be a trend, set the trend. And absolutely, um, I think there isn't any other time, at least since we've been alive and been in the workforce where it's just so exciting to be able to build. AI is bringing so much opportunity to create in ways that, I mean, even when you and I were just working a few years ago together, when we first met at LinkedIn, we actually met in an AI course at LinkedIn.

Speaker B: I still have the notebook somewhere here. The notebooks that we had that they give away as part of the course.

Speaker A: Yes, we should wear our shirt at some point, but that must have been almost five, six years ago. And during that time, which seems ages ago, when you take meeting notes, which inevitably many of you will be taking meeting notes, you literally do it yourself. You open up a Word Doc or a Google Docs and you take notes. The difference today is that you can do those notes, uh, so much more quickly, quicker, because you have such tools. And so when I think about, yes, it is a hard market to get into when you're beginning your career because it might feel that, you know, all the, um, kind of skill sets that were valuable for someone at an entry level are now being replaced. But at the same time, you have tools that are yet to also be uncovered. I mean, meeting notes is just one area. And so when you are still exploring your next job, this is your opportunity to try out all of the different types of tools there. Pick your top three to five, because once you get in to your role, you will be that much more fluent in an artificial intelligence language that everybody, regardless of what your title is in a company or how many years that you've been working, values those skills.

Speaker B: Today it does. And you know, this is helping. I'm thinking of, it just sparked something of a framework, right. That if I compare myself, right, we did not have these things available at that time. And also think about, you know, if you're an immigrant, you come from an immigrant background. I know for international students, if you're on a visa, there's only, there's few limitations, but there's a, uh, way that you have to figure out, how do I create upside potential not for where the puck is right now, but where it is going to be and like, what's going to be of demand. And right now I just need Some place to start, right? So I'll share this. You know, when people are doing, you know, they're coming out of their MBAs and most MBAs will tell them, you know, you're doing an MBA because you've had some experience under your belt and you want to make a shift. And they will tell you that you can make most likely one out of three shifts. So it's role or function, role, geography, industry. And they will tell, uh, you, after you go through this, you can make likely one out of the three. Very rarely are you going to make two out of the three, all three shifts at the same time. Not possible. So when I graduated after one year in oil and gas, it was debate about whether my re visa gets renewed. And I made all three shifts. I realized that, okay, I want to go learn about supply chain and product marketing and brand and sales and supply chain is at the center of it. I have an engineering background, operations background. I just have an interest in how do we just make things happen and deliver solutions to people. And I was what, a uh, refining engineer at, uh, one year in. And for me I was like, okay, what do I do? And some mentors were like, well if you're in North America and you want to do supply chain, most of it is figured out or there's like very streamlined in terms of roles. So if you really want to learn, you should learn where the infrastructure doesn't exist. And I was like, okay. And you also have an interest in going back and you grew up in Pakistan, see if there's something international where the markets are still new. And because when you go there, you get more responsibility, you get to sort of like a startup and you will be able to, you do have a, uh, degree in engineering from outside. You have some good experience from a, uh, reputable company. So you've learned capital equipment planning because you were in oil and gas, you can market yourself. And so I ended up changing geography. I got lucky. Geography, industry and the role itself. And while I sacrificed a lot of pay, the two years experience there and then coming back in the heat of the recession when all of my other friends were still looking for jobs, I got it within a couple of weeks because the market was looking for service and cost optimization experience that I had gathered in two years, that I would not have gathered in ultimate Africa a long time. So the reason I'm sharing that is when you think about, okay, Shajat, great, you're saying we are the market, we are the trend. Let's say you want to get into Tech and you want to learn AI, but it's going to be very difficult and you're like, I don't know, like this is going to be very competitive. Well, what are the industries that generally get to attract technical talent that generally can't pay a lot of the salaries compared to tech, even though the salaries are going down for everyone. And maybe they're also in a market or geography where there's a lot of opportunity, but an infrastructure does not exist. So think of AI and tech as infrastructure and you can go and pitch to them and try to get a role there. And I'll say why the analogy matters for me. In the first couple of years of my career I was on a, uh, refining, you know, outside a refinery, then on a shop floor of manufacturing, then on a warehousing floor. Right. And then I ended up being in strategy consultant and in strategy consulting. Every time some new project would come out, new problem because of the variety of experience I had seen on the ground, to the point where clients would trust that this person's actually been on the ground. Compared to a lot of people from elite schools who have never been outside of a boardroom in their careers. That adds a lot of value. Right. And you can only do that early in your career where there's a cause it requires, it's physically demanding as well. So imagine you go into industries that not really are, uh, focus of tech. You spend time there, offer something to help them build something, and then later, if you want to come back into tech or something that's J3 oriented, you've gathered on the ground experience that a lot of these companies don't have that they're trying to design products for. Right. So again, think about role geography, industry, and is there a way, where is it that you have likelihood of success go in? Doesn't matter if it doesn't look sexy. You can make it sexy if you learn the right things from there and then pitch it differently and position yourself differently for where you want to go.

Speaker A: Mhm. As I. Well, firstly I just wanted to say you got your Canadian quote in about staying ahead of the puck as you were sharing those perspectives around transformation. Because that's what they were. It's uh, not just going from job to job, role to role, geography to geography. Those were transformative experiences that have defined your thinking and presence. I think for those who are still job seeking, the two things that we shared earlier will be very important for you. As you know, I always like to think about roadmap. How do you get to where you need to be. And then you work backwards. What are your milestones? If I were in your shoes, tactically, I would create a learning map for myself. What would you know if I were maybe going for a specific job? So Chuja, you mentioned the tech space. I think product management, not only in technology but in other spaces are uh, very important. And there's a larger volume of jobs perhaps relative to other parts of a company. That is your homework to do. Where are new grads being hired? If they are being hired, number one. And number two, given those roles, what is your learning map? What do you need to learn in order for you to be not only prepared, but I want you to be highly competitive.

Speaker B: All right? And you know, if you think about I went through this training today or just training the uh, assessment today in a leadership workshop and helped me realize stuff that I knew of. So I think, you know, the first seven to 10 years, let's say in your 20s, right you are, it's a moment of heavy experimentation. You're figuring yourself out. You may be frustrated, like, you know, where do I go where you're not? Just don't feel settled. I would say try to push yourself because then the next 10 to 20 years you're reaping the benefits of it where you step back and reflect and you're like, okay, all that I've gathered and if I've experimented a lot, I've gathered a lot of insight and I can now apply it in different places. And then from the, I would say the first 10 to 15 years is learning. And then from that you step back and take that learning and convert it into earning, right? Mhm, mhm. And so I think that's why the, when you talk about industries and like where you are competitive, think about, always be thinking about like what am I learning here? So I can, if I had to like summarize, I would say, hey, oil and gas learned really well about big capital project management and the um, bureaucracy that's involved on it. When you have millions and millions from there went to a CPG environment and learned how to manage with limited budget and be creative in order you still deliver value and deliver products, uh, in a uh, brand new market. Hydro came back, learned in the heat of the recession to help a company survive and thrive in recession. Because the skills I had picked up, I was like, okay, let's apply this on, um, how do we optimize the way we manage distribution and the last mile delivery. Guess what? Amazon was just taking up at that time. From there I said, okay, let's get into E commerce. And that led to E commerce, right? So each industry, each step you are learning. Imagine if you were entering a market that was really hot. You would have entered a company, company would have thrown perks at you. It would be an amazing environment. You'd felt like this is an extension of college and you're like okay, great. But then soon you realize that everyone's just in about the rat race. They just want to get quicker, faster, a lot of money. And you fall into that, okay, I'm just going to go fast without knowing where are you going. So you are able to have time spent with people and think about what is it they're thinking about, what's really purposeful.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I earlier on when everyone was asking me, I was in a fast paced environment in emerging economies and people were growing really fast and everyone's focus was who is the fastest to get to a promotion. And the term thrown was like you got to climb up the ladder really fast. And then I was like no. But I want to ask is the ladder really leaning on the right wall? And because of that, so when I say you become the trend, I said I'm going to move on to other places to learn and like you said, have a learning plan in mind. At that time I knew I wanted to go do something around supply chain E commerce, deliver solutions at the center of brand and sales and physical products. And through that I can do some nonprofit work as well, some humanitarian work and build a business. That was my idea. So I was like okay, it's manufacturing, distribution, sourcing and procurement, planning, retail, cpg, right. So I was going through that path. So I didn't care about promotions. I cared more about moving different places. Right. And gathering up and figuring out if the ladder is on the right wall. That is key for you to do in the first couple of years. And uh, from there if you decide you want to do something else, you will be able to pivot to other places as well.

Speaker A: So many great perspectives around, you know and this is we're discussing primarily around folks that may still be job hunting. I would like to share, maybe just brainstorm a few tactical things because we are LinkedIn alums from the company who help people find jobs. And so I think it would be great if we can think of uh, just following brainstorm some ways.

Speaker B: So thinking about when I say being a trend. Right. I'll give my example. I very quickly shifted different companies because I did not want to say when the market became hot and I entered a space where people were having faster growth in a company, everyone was going after, hey, we just need to race to get the next promotion and then the next promotion. That's why when I say that you are entering a market, you are lucky that you're entering this market as well. Because if you were entering a hot market, everyone would have been going after, hey, let's just quickly grow without knowing where you're going. So I, when I entered after my first job and the term was, hey, everyone needs to think about climbing up the ladder fast, I started asking the question, well, is the ladder even leaning on the right wall? So like you said, building a learning plan. I said, okay, I'll have a learning plan. I want to do something around physical goods, be at the center of brand sales operations. And I love brand management. I was like, okay, take that. And if I can learn that, then I can also do humanitarian work that I want to do. So I said, okay, that is manufacturing, strategy, planning, sourcing and procurement, warehousing, distribution, transportation. So I shifted, did join a company, did a great project as soon as getting promoted, got the promotion, moved on to the next one. And at that time we were like, what are you doing to your career? You're going to be, you're going to be flagged as someone who moves too quickly. People need to spend. You're in a good company to spend your entire life, or at least like a whole decade and just grow there. This was unheard of. And I used to be called by people like, oh, you're, you're like, uh, a gen. Are you a, are you a Gen Z? Are you a Gen X? At that time, because why? Because I'm shifting jobs, number one. Number two, because I wanted to gather perspective. And I. And as an immigrant as well. When I came back to North America, I wanted to learn from others. I did not have access to a country club membership. I did not grow up here. So I was on my own. So something called LinkedIn popped up and I was like, okay, LinkedIn is such a good way. I'm going to reach out to people, learn from people's journeys. Also think about my journeys as what are the different possibilities in life I could take? And just be really curious, I'll just message someone. And I started realizing that, oh, this is so good. Very early in the days, if someone asked me for a resume, why don't I just make this my resume? The confidence of sending LinkedIn when a recruiter is asking for a resume, when the market has not normalized to that was because I Set up that every job that I was in, I will make sure every quarter I have another offer. Not because I wanted to jump ship, but because I wanted to test out in the market. I would go interview for roles not to get the job, but to make sure that I can share my perspective, learn from them and see if what do I bring to the table, right? And if I'm interviewing others, I will learn as well. And if I get an offer, great. I know that I'm on the right track, I have the right perspective. Second thing, before LinkedIn was being even used as a resume, I was already giving people trainings about LinkedIn. Third thing, because later on in my career I was used to LinkedIn. I built a skill set of reaching out with people and figuring out what really resonates. When you reach out to someone, you ask for guidance, not for a job. How do you connect with someone digitally that they respond to you in a very authentic way. I learned that skill before it became a trend. And then last but not the least, you, when came time to, hey, I now need to have my own brand. So I'm in like mid career and many people who are going through layoffs are like, well, I wasn't expecting a layoff so I need to go back and build my brand. I was already doing that because I was ahead of the trend. I'm sharing that because you right now have all the tools that are, you're going to be native on. Uh, you are not only just understanding about yourself by using them, you're becoming an artist and an expert that before they become a trend, you're already trendy, just like I already see. And uh, I know I'm going at a long rant on this is I just saw a video last year, Ivy League, top, MBA school grads, immigrant background, struggling, like, how do we make it right now? And we are on a visa. And some of them, what they did, they're like, listen, but we know one thing, you know TikTok really well that the corporate world does not really well. And I've been seeing people use TikTok, TikTok to stand out and realize that rather than even a job, they've been building businesses based on that, marketing themselves based on that. They know the audience really well. They'll be able to when they get hired or even get a business deal, they're like, you're not giving me a business deal because I'm, uh, a good content creator or, uh, I have a perspective on this topic. You're also reaching out to me because now I own something that you don't. I own an audience and I have captured an audience, which brands have not. So be that trend before it becomes a trend. That's what I would say. And I think it goes back to. It gives you visibility, it will give you velocity. Because this is going to go really fast. And because companies won't be able to catch up on it, they'll be willing to give you a high premium in the next few years if you've done the work.

Speaker A: Mhm. Um, so for folks that are still looking, I think as Shijab mentioned, there's many opportunities and I think these few things that I'll share is specifically for you, but it's also applicable for those who are already in their jobs. I think it's generally it's applicable as a mental model about careers. Number one, your first job is not going to be your forever job. And number two, I think there's a myth that I would like to bust that if you are not working for a large company or an established company, that your rate of learning will suffer. I think in this age that's just simply not true. And number three is kind of like my take on why we work and what we get out of the workforce. I think there are three things in general that we look for when we think about having dignified work. Number one, most obvious is financial capital. Number two, knowledge capital. And number three, network capital. So if I were in your shoes, particularly for folks who are still on the job hunt, it might feel that across that spectrum of capital that you may not be able to access or reach any of them. But I believe that this is a time where you actually can much more realistically than before. And that is because of, you know, one, as Sujat mentioned, there are intrinsic skills around branding and social media that you already have. You grew up in this generation. Number two, there are ways in which to communicate in that space that is not native to the corporate world. Number three, you connect in a new and different way. So back to what I shared earlier about learning the language of a, of a firm. There's also a language of a generation and so that you're coming with those skill sets. And so I wanted to share that mental model because just because you're new and you have a, uh, role, you're starting a new job or you're still looking and at some point you will start your new job. Just because you're the new person does not mean that you do not have transferable skills. And I think that point is even more salient for folks who are still on the job market because it can feel like I don't have transferable skills in this market because it is so tough to get a job. So I want to zoom out and say one, listen to the data that we shared earlier. These are macro viewpoints, right? World Economic Forum numbers that share about the rate of change in the economic that's impacting the workplace. So it's not a graduates of 2025 thing. It is a world thing that is happening. But don't get lost in the numbers and don't get sad about your situation. What you do is think about across those three spectrums of capital, financial knowledge and network. What can I do now with the resources that I have to shape those? And if you can think like that, I would want you on my team.

Speaker B: Oh, I, I'm looking. I'm right on. Uh, so first of all, mind blown for those who don't know, Giselle and I go back and forth, this has been for years. And then we'd land on some framework and Giselle, amazing. Mind blown with what you said, financial knowledge and network capital and aside reading, I'm like, all right, one takeaway. What I give to people is a framework or like a cheat sheet. And so I'll suggest this. I think of it and when we put out this video, we'll put that graphic out either in the video or on the notes. So think of it's like three columns. What we're saying is first figure out three.

Speaker A: We're not going to two by two this Shajan.

Speaker B: Oh no, man. We're going to switch it up. We're going to switch it up.

Speaker A: All right, three by two in maybe

Speaker B: by the time, um, I enter, uh, oh, it's a two by three, by the way. Okay. But by the time I finish it, you're going to probably refine it. And so I think first thing is summarizing entire conversation is first of all figure out what is the capital that you need, right? And in there there are three capitals. There's financial knowledge and then network capital. And these three, either you have some of it or you, you need some of it. Then where you enter is where basically, okay, they are. What are the mix of role geography, industries. When I said geography is geography slash market, right? Where you're like, okay, what is that mix? Where I can go have a high likelihood of going there. And then how do you stand out Are three areas. Number one, digital. So make sure you have digital presence with perspective. Right? Not just copying not just AI generated stuff, but actual perspective. You have a thesis around this. Use AI to be able to do it really well, package it really well and learn. And the third is community. Because we shared earlier about Gen Z, the loneliness and then the entire market is going to shift towards more human connected community. Make sure that you are talking to your community and people where it's safe for you to test out these ideas. Make a fool out of yourself. Use them as user research. So when you think about it, hey, if you're graduated, whether you have a job right now, great. Don't take it for granted. Make sure that you're always questioning. If you're looking for a job, ask yourself, okay, what am I trying to solve for? What is the capital you're solving for? It is one of these three financial knowledge network. You get all three amazing. But it's like, okay, and what is my next play that gets me strong on these three Cap, where do I enter right? Uh, where do I have high likelihood? Look at role, geography, market and industry. Then how do I put myself in there? Digital, present AI as your friend. Be good, display your AI skills. Don't just talk about and display them. And then third, community. Use your community to test out. Test yourself out as your product. Sound. If you take these nine elements right, I think that is where you're like, okay, that's my map, that's my target areas for where, how I approach this, who do I go to, what are the industries? And if I even I don't get traction right now, I am building some content material for myself. And if someone says, okay, Shujat, you've had tons of experience but we don't have a job, we don't know where to start, we don't know who to talk to and you are worried that you're lost in a pile of resumes and you actually don't have much to add in your resume. You own your own digital infrastructure. Have a website do it. You can do it really easily now under your name. When I Google that website comes up. You then own your own digital infrastructure. What do you put out there as perspective? What do you put out there as products that you're testing? What are you putting out there as things that you're creating that is going to help you stand out rather ah, than a LinkedIn profile or a resume.

Speaker A: I really like where we're taking this. So we're wrapping it up and we want to tie a bow and tying a bow for us here with here's a deal is kind of Sharing the perspectives that likely no one will share with you about the kind of the job world, the work world and we dug a little bit deeper into finance here and there as well. Let's talk tactics. So for instance you know what should all folks that are kind of new grads be focusing on right now? And I'm going to go first although I am um actually underscoring something that you shared which is own your data and the that's the headline own your data and then the sub bullet points there are. I love what you John said and these are literally low hanging fruit. Get you know your website name and make sure you have a LinkedIn profile. And I also just on LinkedIn profile a uh tidbit here is that my understanding from some younger professionals it could be intimidating because you might not be able to complete all the sections but your goal here is to low hanging fruit is just claim your name, just have the literal LinkedIn.com Sujad Ahmed or the next kind of best thing because Shuja Ahmed clearly is taken and so and don't worry about everything else for now just you know claim the website and number three is maybe clean up some sites that you may have and so very tactical pieces that you only you own and you have control of doing this. It's very specific to what you can do first, what's most important and high roi. And so if you are interested in that we can link it in the show notes. I think the headline is on your Data and on LinkedIn. Don't be afraid like you you will have something to say if you don't already and just, just go for it.

Speaker B: It's your turn Sujat on the technical stuff right? Because now there's just so much information available. You reminded me folks may have listened to this podcast acquired where the UH2 folks research companies and their stories and have been doing three four hour long podcasts and have done great for themselves and there's amazing insightful for people who are experienced in business other ones listening to this and you know they're high in demand so you have all of this information available at your fingertips. It's free on a podcast. So I would say number one in college you learn something let's ah say from classes or something picture interest. You also have your personal point of view about something that you're really passionate about and like the framework earlier shared like you know the nine point you sort of have an idea where you have a good chance what capital is you're trying to solve for where you have A good chance. And then how to get there, I would say start off with like Giselle said, number one, get a website domain for your name. Because when you get for your name go to, for example, namecheap is one of them. But if you go there, right, if you put your name and it's not taken, it's gonna be like they have a deal for new sites coming for people signing up for the first time. Rather than nine bucks per year, it's going to be 649 per year, right? Get that. That is, you know, depending on where you live, it's probably like two coffees, maybe one coffee, right? Get that on LinkedIn, on your domain because you're owning your infrastructure, digital infrastructure. Then if something interests you, you can start writing about it. Substack, you can start writing about it, you can posting about TikTok, Instagram, uh, whatever suits you, YouTube and put educational and even entertaining content out there that helps someone, that provides someone value. And if it happens to be something around the topic of business, whether it's marketing, sales, engineering, product, hr, finance, and then for a specific industry and even further for a specific geography. I've read about it, I have a thesis about it. Put it out there. The worst, uh, as long as you're putting out there authentically and also okay, that you know, if you get corrected, you realize someone's at least paying attention, that they gave me feedback that I got something wrong, I'll go and fix it. What's the worst going to happen? Someone who spent a year, two years after graduating and at a job will probably not have that perspective. They probably did not have time for that. You do.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You are still way better off than them and you got corrected, that's fine. You at least you have something to offer right now for someone to hire you or do business with. And if you nail it, the upside is you're the one eyed person amongst the blind. Right? From uh, like a term from my, from my culture. And so you have no excuse not to leverage these avenues and tools available for you to put out there. For example, what would I put out there on a website or a social media platform like okay, I want to get into an industry. AI is a big thing. People are freaking out. What are AI tools that I like, uh, I use and what can I create from there? And showcase your AI skills by producing something with AI in the way that you produce the content or the way you produce the analysis. Right. And the way you give even tips for others to how better to use it that's going to display your competency with playing with it.

Speaker A: Well, there you have it. We've covered cultural sayings from Shujat's Punjabi, Pakistani culture, we covered Canadian quotes. But in all seriousness, we are so proud of you and you have an entirety of your career to look forward. And where you start does not dictate where you end up. Think about your career as stackable experiences as you are gaining. What we shared here around the capital model of financial knowledge and network, those are things that you can always work on for yourself. You're going to stack that up, uh, throughout your years and this is just the beginning. You should be proud of yourself and you've got so much, so many ways to go.

Speaker B: And best of luck, yes, I would say best of luck. Think of your next 10 years as a portfolio of mistakes. And if you are willing to make mistakes, some will give you amazing outcome, some will give you a lot of learning. But, uh, if you're not willing to do those, that's the biggest mistake. That is not going to give you any return. If you step in boldly. Don't worry about if you make a fool out of yourself. As long as you're experimenting, the desire to constantly make mistakes and learn from it, you're going to be good.

Speaker A: Excellent. So to wrap this up, um, thank you so much and thanks everyone for tuning into this episode of here's the Deal. And please follow us, turn on your notifications so you don't miss an episode. And if you love it, please, we ask that you share this with your family, your friends, your graduates that you're so proud of. And we're getting great feedback on the show. We'd really appreciate it if you can like and also leave us a five star review. It is so helpful in terms of the algorithm and it'll get us recommended to folks like you and the right people so that we can help more people craft purposeful lives and reach their highest potential. Thank you, everyone.

Speaker B: Uh, thanks everyone.