The Pope's Selection and How Succession Planning (really) Happens in Companies. | S2 E2

Speaker A: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to here's the Deal, the show where we unpack the real dynamics of leadership culture and the future world. I am Sujath, joined by my co host, Giselle. Uh, as immigrants and entrepreneurs, we know how critical it is to demystify what leadership really takes. Our goal here is to help you lead with clarity and design a career that's purposeful, not just impressive. We both come from strategy consulting, moved into tech, and now run our own ventures. Along the way, we've sat in a lot of rooms, some with power, some with pressure, and we've seen what's usually left unsaid. And that's our goal, to break the deal for you, for what really happens behind the scenes. So with that, what's the deal today?

Speaker B: Hey, Sujat. And hey everyone. Tuning in. Uh, so what's the deal for today? Today's deal is about succession, specifically succession planning. And it's a conversation that is important. It's hard, but we find that leaders and companies delay this conversation until it's too late. So let me frame a little bit of research for you that's been done, uh, by Harvard, and essentially sloppy or last minute CEO transitions cost companies and shareholders up to $1 trillion a year in lost value. And that's just among the s and P 1500. So all your large cap, mid cap and small cap companies, to give you further perspective, because a trillion dollars, I don't know about you, that's hard to kind of think about. Like what's the level of magnitude, right, Apart from the fact that that's a lot of, um, so it's the GDP of the Netherlands. So think about this important conversation being delayed. And when you do that, you wipe out the entire GDP of Netherlands, the country. And so succession isn't just about human resources exercise. It's about the ultimate test of leadership and maturity in an organization. So the questions are, are you building something that outlasts you or are you building something where the company is dependent on you or a few leaders? And the fun twist around this today is around the conclave. And so, you know, we just saw papal sea change, centuries old Vatican ritual that we witnessed. And what can we learn from that and what can we deduce in the corporate life as well as our day to day life as leaders?

Speaker A: I can imagine for immigrant leaders, right, that mess is amplified if you're the first to hold power. Stepping aside doesn't feel like a transition. It can feel like erasure. You know, you've climbed the ladder, you've throughout Life built this wealth for you. But there's always a risk that, you know, you've grown up thinking someone can take this away because you have to fight for it. So the pressure that, you know to prove you belong at the top runs deep. And, you know, plus, there's often, you know, if you think about it, there's often no playbook. You're navigating systems that you weren't born into, trying to build something lasting and then figuring out how to let go without disappearing. That's more than operational. It's emotional. Right. It's symbolic. You know, it, uh, it hits the core of your identity.

Speaker B: Sure. I mean, you and I are both immigrants, and it can certainly feel that way. The idea of when, uh, you're professional and your personal goals collide. I think the reality that you and I have seen helping businesses grow is that if you don't build pipelines, leadership pipelines, innovation pipelines, you end up building dependencies, whether that's dependency on your leadership or your existing leadership bench, or maybe dependency from an existing business that you already have. Um, and what we've also seen is that dependencies don't build strong businesses. They don't build legacy. What they. What they do is they create a liability. And so today we want to unpack four things. One, what does the Conclave teach us about succession? Two, what is the learning for companies and leaders? And three, what's the deal for immigrant leaders? Let's dive in. I, uh, want to walk through the first question on succession. What does the Conclave teach us about succession?

Speaker A: Okay. You know, this is interesting that, you know, a Muslim is being asked by a Christian, uh, about the Conclave. So I'll start off with this. If your leadership journey has been about creating space for others to step up and for others to be turned into leaders, this episode is for you. Because that's where I think the right way of doing succession is about building future leaders and, you know, letting go of your own power and. And that is a mark of great leadership. It's how long you stay in power, and then you leave the place to be better for someone else to run it, and then, uh, you know, in a much better way when you're gone as well, and then you move on to something else. The reason we're talking about the Conclave is, and I'll share this, because as we know, you know, just a couple of months ago, we had the new Pope selected. And, you know, the Pope selection is a very unique, traditional process, but there's a very interesting Analysis that happened University in Italy, one of the top universities in Italy, which is in Bocconi. A, uh, couple of researchers actually use what is called organizational network analytics, which is a study of how people are connected and they collaborate with how information flows, right? How sort of connections and deals are made to understand how who actually holds power and influence in an organization. So what they did before the Pope selection announcement was made, and I'm showing this network map here, is they actually studied the network within the conclave and they predicted that, uh, depending on what outcome that they were going to go for, who is going to be the likely successor for the Pope. And they actually predicted it with high degree of accuracy. And you know, so that got us thinking that, uh, we are now in a time and space where we are able to run such methodologies. So what happens in the company as well. And let's start to learn what happened with this decision and also compare it to any decisions in the past and see what can we learn from it and then see how it applies. So let me just walk through what they did. So what they did was basically they looked at the Vatican as a relational ecosystem and they looked at three types of relationships that existed in the Vatican. One is what they call, as you know, official co memberships, right? Which is, you know, commissions, councils, academies within the Vatican. And they looked at data for, based on that structure, for what different councils people were assigned to, who is highly connected based on just that level of relationship. Then they looked at episcopal consecration. What that means is it's how was each cardinal ordained by others and how these spiritual genealogies, how they built strong bonds of loyalty and recognition. So if you were connected over time, over your history, how was those connections made and what do those exist right now in the existing network in the Vatican? And then lastly they looked at information flow, right? How does different journals that were published, who was referenced, who was connected, who referred one each other in their own research papers, did they have mentoring relationships? Right? Did they have membership and patronage networks? So all of their job is combined to see is there something to say about how information flows, does that also lead to who holds power and sort of influence when who gets to become the next successor? They then ranked their top five predictions of who will be the Pope based on three categories, one based on status, right? So who held the most status in terms of like lines and hierarchy and who ordained by others. Then they looked at who were the top five for information control, who were at the center of these information flow networks. And third was like who were in different memberships and coalitions that they had the capacity to bring others along. So like a coalition building capacity. Right. So that's what they published. And they published this before, uh, the PEPCY was announced. And they actually predicted it really well. So this was really fascinating to see. But it also sparked another question for me. M. So what this meant at this level of degree of accuracy is it felt like you, Giselle, might be way better than me and more knowledgeable than me to answer this. So I'll give you a two part question. One, this suggests that there was sort of like a continuation of status quo of what the previous Pope had established and the direction that they wanted to take everyone with. And here, because the way everything was converging, uh, in the networks, it felt like the most likely successor would be someone who'd also continue that tradition and the direction that the Vatican was going towards. The second part is if I compare it to how Pope Francis himself was selected. And you know, I. It was not necessarily a continuation of tradition. It's actually a massive change in direction of the status quo. I actually made this post a couple of weeks ago on my LinkedIn about the movie the Two Popes and I highly recommend everyone watch it. Very good movie. But it basically explained how a traditional leader is now willing to pick someone or basically lean towards someone who challenges the status quo. Right. Whose approach is very different. Approach is more focused on the masses, less so on the tradition. Who believes that, you know, we should talk about truth is a quote in the movie. Truth may be vital, but without love, it is unbearable. And how do you bring that future along? At that time, I doubt if the same analysis was run right, that would have correctly predicted the next pop, because there was a, uh, intentional decision to change the status quo. Right. Bring someone who is sort of not an underdog, but someone who's going to change the way the direction of the PEPC works. When you want to converge and lead to the status quo, you look at existing structures, status, how the information flows, how things have been structured in their organization. But as you want to go for something new, you gotta throw away the old and think about someone new who may not have had the chance to grow up through that power structure if the status quo is what you wanted to maintain. So back to you, how do you think about it?

Speaker B: Well, um, lots of things to share, but I did want to say I was chuckling a little bit because it is not lost in me that, uh, that yes, Shujat is a, uh, practicing Muslim and I am a devout Filipino Catholic, and I think it is safe to say that Sujat and I don't normally discuss our kind of views, especially when we think about it from m. A corporate standpoint. But because one, this is. Here's the deal. And two, you know, our audience is around, you know, immigrants, and many of you are just like us, right? Like, you have very, uh, kind of, you know, fundamental beliefs and values that maybe you can't share in different circles, but we welcome you. And just know from this conversation itself that this is, this is different and uncomfortable in different ways. And like, I don't normally share, Srijad is one of the few people. And now whoever will listen to this will know that I am a devout Filipino Roman Catholic. And so I do find it rather amusing that I teed up the first question for you around, what do you think about the Conclave? So I just wanted to share that, uh, comment context with, with you all. Um, and so thank you for sharing this study. Sujata actually found this study I thought was very fascinating. And for the University of Bocconi, like, uh, just applaud you. Uh, and if you take a look at the rankings again, across the three dimensions, status was one of the main. Was one of the three dimensions. And, uh, who is Pope Leo now? Who was selected as our, uh, new Pope for the Catholic Church was actually ranked number one. So it's lots of questions around there around which dimension is most important. Is it status, is it information control, or is it coalition building? But I think one of the interesting takeaways from how you were discussing the two Pope Shoejot is this idea around, um, status quo versus non status quo. But what is really fascinating is that the question around, one, you know, does this tradition even matter around a selection process? Uh, and two, how does the process itself inform the needs of, in this case, the needs of the Church? And, uh, I have a slightly different perspective on status quo versus non status quo because I think the question is more around what does the Church need in the future? What kind of leadership would we need for that future to happen? And what would we need to believe from a leadership standpoint, from a strategy standpoint, from how we operate standpoint in order to make that future happen. And so my sense is those are the kinds of questions that the cardinals were, um, were debating. What's your take?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I was going to just look it up because it made me think, right, is the, um, the Vatican wrote of one of the probably best AI papers. Uh, you know, uh, of course Asked by Pope Francis and then continued by Pope Leo. Now, uh, and this time I think gives you, it gives you a glimpse into what they were thinking for the future. I think I, I believe in there was status quo in this sense that right now the world is all over in a very uncertain and a very sensitive point at which the Pope transition is happening. If you think about the time of Pope Francis, we were in a very different world right now when you think about macro economy, geopolitical unrest, you think about AI coming in and asking fundamental questions not just in corporate but non corporate world as well. You know, what does that mean? Where does human value come in? So there's inequity, social inequity, there's like multi generational sort of conflict as well. There's a lack of trust between leaders and the population. So this is first year I think where majority of the elections the incumbent has lost. Right. That we see across the world. So we, I think in that environment, Pope Francis was ah, a very bold and direct voice for across faith, even for my faith as well, for standing up for humanity and for where the values, what needs to be valued by businesses and governments overall. And I think in that respect they're like, okay, this succession is happening in a very uncertain environment. So how do we make sure that we also have had a voice, that the Vatican has had a voice that has also questioned the power sectors in the world in the current situation. And then okay, to maintain your own continuity, you said, okay, let's maintain status quo so we don't shake up too much in the Vatican. But we also make sure that we further dive deeper into the topics that Pope Francis was leading. Right. So that's why we saw like the paper on AI which is highly recommend everyone to go read it on like why we need to think about humanity first and that needs to be the parameter and we need to put all kinds of guardrails that sort of threatens, that threatens autonomy, threatens agency of people, threatens further inequity in the world. So um, in that regard I think it's a very interesting move, right. For if I think about corporate world as well, right. Where the world is changing and you want to the belief, the assumptions that you thought that this is what the world is going to be on, it has changed now, which I think sort of like if I compare to the Vatican, it is also like the belief on what the world is going to be has changed now, but our morals remain the same. So same thing for a company that our moral compass or our vision Remains the same. What do we want to achieve? And if that requires a different kind of, of a, uh, personnel, different way of working, then we need to find those people who can build the, uh, next culture for the organization. And I think that's why I compared the both Pope stories, right? That in Pope Francis situation, there was a completely different change that they want to bring internally. Right? So they look for someone who would question that. And I think now, Pope Leo, they're like, okay, we need to keep internally really strong to fight the, uh, external forces that we've been open and openly challenging with our words. And. But we need someone who can then be stronger in fighting those external forces and in that way sort of keep some continuity. In another way, when the first paper that comes out is on AI from the Vatican with the new Pope, also signals that more than any other organization I know in this world, you, the Vatican's more open to AI and thinking about technology than the technology companies themselves. Right.

Speaker B: Such a proud Catholic right now. And thank you for underscoring that. Um, one thing that I also want to also shift us to the conversation around what can companies and leadership specifically learn from, from what we're sharing around the conclave? Um, and before we do, I wanted to kind of preface that with a, uh, little bit of history and context as we go into the conversation around leadership. The time of Pope Francis selection was a bit of an historical anomaly because Pope Benedict, the Pope at the time, made a decision to step down versus generally that you have the Papal See as the Holy See for your lifetime. You serve in your lifetime. And what I found very interesting about that particular conclave, because they still held the conclave at that time. What I found interesting about that is a leader who I will call a prescient leader. If I were to put myself in his shoes and kind of think he must have asked himself, where do we need to go as an organization? Where do we need to go to further our mission? And, um, uh, do we have the right leadership in place to do that? And it appears that the question, the answer to that question, particularly for himself as the leader of the Church, was as of this time, not anymore. And so that is, I think, just a, uh, very fascinating if you think about, look at any highest point of an industry, in this case, it's political, geopolitical, country leadership. I mean, the Vatican is its own country, right? It has a very loud voice. If you think about, just like the human senses of being at the top, the tippity top of the game and being very Transparent. And asking yourself a question like that, that must have been hard because humans also have egos. And so I think that was a very humble and prescient leader to ask that question, because it was not a question that he needed to pose.

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, you know, so you asked a question earlier about, uh, tradition. Right. And I think. And let me share this again. Um, there is, you know, uh, you see on this. On the right. Um, under the premise of the movie. So I highly recommend, again, between Pope Benedict and Pope Francis, the whole movie is about the dialogue, about, you know, both debating, right. And Pope Benedict is thinking about, you know, how does. Should someone different come in? And I think this. I love this line, which was, you know, what happens when the future of tradition rests in the hands of those willing to reimagine it? And then. And in order to do that, it requires dialogue for a leader to let go of their ego as well, to speak to people who they actually don't agree with. And. And I think that's what happened there. And it's. It's a lesson. You know, we think about the position the Pope represents beyond just the physical boundaries of the Vatican. He can't afford to just, in an uncertain manner, do random tweets and stir up the entire world. Right. It could create unrest. Right. So there's like. So we think about a leader who is thinking about everything I say and do. There are multiple impacts of this, but I want to solve for what is the core universal that creates betterment for humanity right. Across faiths. And I think so. You're right. Uh, so it requires someone to be in that position who thinks in that manner. And I think that's reflective of. As Pope Benedict was also shifting away, it showed that the kind of person who becomes a Pope also has that leadership quality or the system has created that setup that you. For you to be the leader, you need to be someone who can make tough decisions. But you mentioned something about tradition, right? So if I compare to companies, companies may not necessarily have their traditions. They may used to have that back in the day when we had empire companies, right. That used to last for a very long time. We don't see that over, um, the last two decades, right, where the span of companies is shorter, I think. But I think what the common thing is, if the. The Vatican, I think, would be compared to, uh, like you said, to a government or to a institution where they know that the institution needs to remain because institution's purpose is to help people and represent humanity. So, uh, the decisions they make Right. Make sure that the institution doesn't get hurt. That may be similar for, let's say an institute that is focused on the social good may not be the same for a corporation where you leave off, because the corporation's goal may just be shareholder value. Right. It may not necessarily be social good, but the factors remain the same. Like what you mentioned, that human ego is still there. You are letting go of power. So question is, does tradition of succession planning that we see in the Vatican, that process is something that companies should have as well, some sort of, uh, a process and tradition. And even before we get there, what is the process that companies have of succession planning right now? And then what we've seen as well, between you and I in our careers.

Speaker B: All right, well, let's tackle that first question around what happens today. So I think first for our listeners, companies do perform succession planning. I've been on many advisory engagements around that. And, uh, I think to your point earlier, Sujat is there isn't one playbook and it certainly is not a requirement. Um, and nonetheless, I think for public companies with boards and governance, there's their methodologies to ensure securing the next line of leadership and so on. These, these do exist. Uh, companies do run them. Two, there isn't one standard playbook, unlike how the conclave is done, you know, pope after pope. And, and three, we're not as, as employees or even as stock shareholders. We might not necessarily be privy to the how of the process, which is why I think this conversation is so valuable. Right. And so I think that is important to know. It's not that it's non existent in companies. It does exist.

Speaker A: So let me shift it to our, you know, in our format, we all talk about, okay, so what does it mean for companies? What's the deal behind this for people who are not aware of it? And then also like, what does it mean as an immigrant leader or someone as a leader who's underestimated and wants you to break through these barriers? So one is, you know, understanding how it happens. Right. So let's say a public company, similar for a private company as well. But a public company has a shareholder. Public board, private company may have a different setup of a board, but the board is generally interested in knowing about succession planning. And generally it is for the, not just the top, like the CEO, but the C suite and generally the next level below the C suite. So for instance, if you are a cto, you're interested in who are the engineering execs under the CTO and who is you know, right now thought of as a likely successor. And then similarly you do it for the other functions as well. Companies also do for their own succession planning, not just for the board, for themselves they normally look at depending on the size of the company. But like think of it as a VP and above, right. For every vp, like if they think you're the VP level is one who's going to guide a major decision for the company, then who is their successor? Up to that, that generally is done uh, for some companies once a year, but for mostly it's done, um, it could be done twice a year as well, depending on where the company stage is right now, how uncertain it is, what's the growth trajectory, is there a likelihood that they're going to have an exit or they're going to have a CEO change. But generally let's say once a year that there is a report sent up to the board and a discussion happens between the CEO and the board for who are the likely successors and what is being done to develop them. I will say for what I have seen and when I get pulled in for adviser as well, it a lot of the times becomes a check the box exercise where you know, if you're having a good time, your company is doing good growth. Let's say one year you showed up like a slide of who the successes are, but few months later some of them left. Right. Because of whatever poor environment you created. Right. And but if the company is doing well, if the incumbent is doing well, not much will be done. It is not unless the company sees a major, major risk and the CEO, uh, or someone in the board sees who has power, sees a massive risk that this person is creating such an environment that they need to be either dealt with, given feedback to or do we need to get rid of them? Very rarely it's about getting rid of them. And in there I think one of the common thing that comes out is as a learning is the need for your ability to build followership, your ability to build coalition. So remember going back to the Vatican, they had status information coalition. So I think that similar stuff applies. Think of status as followership and impact and criticality that you have created around you, the branding you've created around you internally and externally in the market, the coalitions that you can bring, because you can bring a uh, diverse network of experts very fast to help support any change interaction in the company and even from outside. And then the information flow. Right. Again depending on the role. So to double click on the type of the role, for instance if you're a CTO or chief product officer in tech exec recruiting firms, the board they always look at, if you moved anywhere, would people follow you? And similarly, when they look at someone from external to come in as a potential successor, do you have followership or not? Right. Which sounds strange, uh, in this world where all the corporations are saying, listen, employees need to suck it up and we're not about employee well being, you do need to care about well being and culture there. Now if you're head of legal, head of marketing, finance, it may not be that critical, but it is because they know that they need talent in technology mostly to come in and help, you know, sustain the company. Because technology is sort of like the core driver. When you think about tech, you could apply the same knowledge that's in life sciences on the science side, same same elsewhere. But if, for example, you're a company that is mostly sales and marketing oriented, let's say cbg, retail, the merchandising, marketing team, sales team will have a lot of influence this way. Where you're like, uh, can you build followership and you, can you bring other people, uh, with you or not? Right. So that, so that, that's um, key part. It is followership now. But the process I've seen, how do you evaluate followership? Has mostly been done check the box item. Unless there's a risk created and then the board really intervenes and says all right, we need to make sure the right successors are taken care of. And we also got to make sure that we're not creating an environment where people just leave.

Speaker B: Mm mhm. Well, there's so much richness in what you shared. Uh, I think to recap a few things that you mentioned, uh, are on the succession planning is generally planned at the highest levels of the organization board level, VPs and above. But for those listening like know that, that it happens. And so you might want to ask where in your organization that occurs. Two, you mentioned something really interesting around the frequency. So it could be once a year. It could, from my experience it could also be in, in certain inflection points where there are maybe shift in strategy or an external factors such as an acquisition. And so those are kind of two. If I were to think about when does this occur, it could be kind of your general calendar frequency could also be because of a significant uh, strategic event. And I think, I love that you mentioned the idea of followership. So not to oversimplify, but sometimes when we think about followership we think of that from a social media standpoint. Right. The number of likes or maybe like in the kind of the content creation or maybe influencer circles. But the followership that we're discussing here is kind of similar in the sense of uh, but, but distinct in the sense of would your team follow, would your team go with you if you were to go elsewhere? And sujant, I know how talented you are, uh, but the reality is there is no, you know, I in team. Right. So how are you going to deliver your work? And as a leader if you move, you need a great bench of talent wherever you go. So that followership I thought was just really keen to share as an insight. The one thing that I would add also is uh, the idea of risk. So succession planning is effectively a huge risk management exercise. And I think there are two dimensions around that that I want I would like to call out. Number one is uh, the smartest organizations that I have seen don't only plan or ask the question around succession planning at the highest levels of the company, but they also ask it for all ranks of the company. And I think this insight is even more important the smaller you are as a company because you literally don't have that many people. Right. And which will bring me to my second point. Second insight is um, who are your key people risk? This is important for you know, not only like you know, who are the next leadership, who uh, are the next kind of leadership stable, who do we put in the org chart, but also are there any uh, any important knowledge? And generally they come, when we think about it, it's people who are the key people Risk that we need to ensure that we are developing, I mean keeping happy, right? That they're, that they're engaged. Because at the end of the day succession is about people, it is about the legacy of your business. But at the core of it is who's running your business. People are and will run your business. So I wanted to call that out as a key insight. Uh, sometimes they call it key man risk. Um, but you know, in our sphere of here's the deal, it's key person risk. And so I think that is another important thing to think about. And the smaller that you are as a company, this might feel even more, the magnitude may feel even greater because, because you know, if you're a 10 person team and you lose one person, that's 10% of your team. So that's something to think about in terms of leadership impact.

Speaker A: It does it all. I mean think about risk management. You know there's, you mentioned this earlier, human egos come into place. And also human behaviors or tendencies come into place. Right. So if you're a 10 person team, uh, and you have the right leader who's developing you as a future leader and you know, investing in you, believes that you're a successor, believes that almost everyone is a successor to someone, right. In this company. And then as they grow and as we're going to go from 10 to 102,000 that they're going to develop others. But what if the talent starts holding you hostage because of it, knowing that you are so dependent on them? Right. So that's one. So I think there's a fine balance. There are a lot of human nuances that come into play and then going back to like your ego as a leader. When you think about critical roles or critical people in a company, every company has a list. So if you for those listing, if you think company doesn't have a list, everyone has a list and they're in that list. A lot of the time it's filled with biases. It is who do you like? Right. And then also identifies like who gets paid more. Not it is not necessarily always based on how critical that person is as a talent. And then also on top of it you add critical role. Are they in a critical role that delivers value to the company? It is unfair. Sure, some of it is could be fair, but it exists. And I think where it comes back to is if, if starting off as a company, small company, if the CEO, the board and the C suite believe in the value of succession planning and that longer term it helps all of us, it helps you individually, but helps all of us. Because if for example, someone leaves away, goes away, you want to make sure that they've left the company in a good spot so that you're not burning any bridges. And while the human tendency would be that if I am for example a C suite person and I want my value is based on that, if I go away, you will not be able to run your company where human behaviors kick in. But if you've brought the right characters in and they've bought into the culture and you made succession planning not a check the box item, but something that you do so similarly a tradition. If you think in the Vatican as well that we're partnering with each other to write research, not because one day we will be selected as a poor, but because that is just a culture that we got to work with each other end of the day as humans, I think succession planning and shown publicly as well that we do this, it sets you up for the long term future reduces your risk. It also builds a belief that what is valued for succession and top leaders, the rest of the population starts understanding that. If we have transparency on how succession happens, it's not always clear cut, but if we have some idea, we know what is valued for us to grow as leaders in this company. So it gives that incentive right now rather than it being haphazard, uh, that it's a gamble. Again, I always throw shows and movies references. One of the best shows in the last couple of years was succession on HBO tells you it displays all these tendencies that we talk about about humans when it comes to hey, I have a chance to be at the head of the throne and what happens and what happens for people around it, what happens by external parties as well. Um, let me switch gears to like as we're coming to close is so the Vatican is a very interesting story. It exposes as well, you know, what exists in companies and what doesn't exist in companies. We talked about like followership inside companies as well that you know is followership is a key element for you to grow up as a successor internally or externally. So one thing we didn't talk about is a lot of the time external search when they're looking to find the next C suite or the next exec or M even next CEO. Right. They keep an eye on how are you being evaluated inside different companies. So this succession planning information while may not may be confidential, but there is an idea of what is your perception inside the company. They gather that to be able to say okay, maybe this person we can poach. Right. If you think about, I think what's it. Is it uh, l' Oreal CEO used to be the head of HR somewhere else and was pulled in. Right. And then there's other examples as well of like where you're like okay, this came completely out of left field. It did not. There's actually data that you look at on other companies succession planning and you talk and share insights and you realize maybe this is a good person to port and normally that poaching doesn't happen as a surprise that I'm just giving you a two week notice, I'm out. They talk to their own leaders as well that there's an opportunity I have, it's better for me and good for my growth. And so it's generally very mutually understood about it. What does it mean for immigrants, for immigrant leaders, you know, who did not grow up with having a lot of like pedigree or like a ah, lineage of People who are like, inside a company or they grew up here where someone's vouching for them, they've basically built it themselves. And when we say immigrants, it also applies to anyone who's basically been an underdog or fought against bias in the system. What does it mean for them to understand succession planning? And then how do you set yourself up to be a future successor where you are or where. Somewhere else where you could be or where you aspire to be but don't see a path right now?

Speaker B: Very good questions. Let's take the first one, which is, um. And I'd love to hear. I'll give my response. I'd love to hear your response, which is, if you're an immigrant leader, why do you need to know about this? Or if, even if you're rising in your leadership journey, why is this so important? One, it's, I think, the personal layer, uh, in terms of just, I think, assume you're in a western country. You moved from your, uh, other, uh, you moved from your original country. One, you're learning the ropes, you're learning the culture. And business culture is a different culture. Succession planning happens. And two, it is an opportunity for you to know that there is a type of progression. But also, two, it could be something that is unfamiliar or unknown. And I think for. Not to speak for all immigrants, but maybe at least the two here in the room, um, having kind of, you know, help companies progress in their. In their planning. I wanted to raise a point that Sujat mentioned, uh, which is, look, these processes are not perfect, and it is a small number of people who make these decisions. You ought to ask how this occurs and, uh, especially if you're interested in ascending in your career at your particular firm. And I don't think this is like a senior leader move. I think if you do this even as you're starting out your career, uh, I did this. And so, uh, I kept on asking. And they can come in the form of the question of, like, one, how do you progress inside our company? Two, what are the values that the company, uh, would expect of me to have? You know, what are the. Another form of that would be, you know, what are the expectations for me to continue to move up? And so I think it's important for us as kind of newcomers, not only to a country, maybe to an industry, but literally to a business system. There is a culture of this that we should, uh, know about. And also, more importantly, how do we maneuver? And a tactical way to maneuver is ask the question, where does it Happen? How does it happen? How can I get on that trajectory?

Speaker A: I'll. Before I answer, I love that asking that question. Because you should ask that doesn't matter what level you're at. And you should always be curious about how it happens. Other places you should. If you find cases like this or movies like this, you should always think about, how is this, how did this happen? So that you and your brain can build, like a, uh, odyssey of stories of, like, what are the different paths? So that if I wanted to be a leader in whatever I wanted to do in life, you'll find commonalities in these stories. So, number one, you should always be asking and then also internally, so you have an idea. My answer to my own question is, I think number one is no matter what level you're at, right. I learned this and took this to heart a couple of probably a decade ago where someone helping me on communication said the opportunity to speak is an audition for leadership. And I had at that time realized that, you know, I was pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Uh, you know, did not matter how articulate I was or if I mumbled or not, uh, as I knew that when I looked at people who had grown up, that even before they entered a room, their reputation was carried there, especially if they were not an immigrant. And I realized as an immigrant, I need to go out and learn how to sell myself as well, because it can't just be my work, but I also need to also go talk about it. And so that meant I need to be comfortable with being in crowds and also public speaking. But when I heard this, uh, in a communications class, I took M where the teacher said, the opportunity to speak right, is an audition for leadership. I'm like, oh, it flips. I'm like, every time. Doesn't matter. It's minor or major. Whatever opportunity I get, I prepared for it, focused on it, and learned from it, asked people for feedback. Because a lot of the time for leaders and successes, it is, how do you package and influence and convince others. If I move it fast forward for those who are, let's say, in leadership positions, or they've made it some way as immigrants at some trajectory in their career, and now want to think about future leadership somewhere else or within their organization. Going back to the Vedic and read that paper from Balcony. It talked about status, coalition building and information flow. So I think information, insights, learning, um, and building networks where you can tap into for insights, diverse networks is proven. Rob Cross has done that research over two decades on what is a predictor for people who grew up into leadership and one of the clear predictors was their diversity of networks that they carried. It was little about what they knew, it's more about who they knew, who can they tap into. But that means those are people who vouch for you, who respond to you. Right? So you being a source of insight to others and you being hungry for insight and learning, especially nowadays with AI, you can get a lot of knowledge, but you may not get a lot of wisdom. Use that knowledge to be able to have opening conversations with other leaders in the space because once they know you've done your homework, they will have a chat with you and get their perspective. So I think build that network throughout very genuinely. Then we talked about coalition building. Coalition building happens as, uh, a leader. If you have the best idea, you're very self aware, you have all the best tools. But if you're not able to mobilize people around a cause, you're not going to be successful. And uh, that requires you to be a coalition builder, just like we saw in the Vatican. So the more and more you can talk about purpose and help other people in their purpose. And purpose doesn't just mean work. There may be something they're passionate about. There's employee resource groups, right? There are like other extracurricular activities people are passionate about outside of work. Is there a purpose, mission that you're excited about as an immigrant for your own community and also go talk to others, what are they passionate about, right? And then go help them on it. That's coalition building inside a company, right? And of course you should always collaborate with others for their roles that they're doing inside a company in whatever function you're in. But I think a lot of the time the alchemy that builds is when you go above and beyond when it wasn't even your role. So I think that's it. Look at mentorship, mentor others, that's coalition building. And then lastly, when you think about status, if you think about both of the Pope's story, Pope Francis as well as Pope Leo, think about any icon or any person that you aspire to as a leader. They get status and position to do something unique that no one else has done. Not necessarily just as a Pope, but even leading up to that position is because they held something very unique to their identity. So Pope Francis was a very unique character. He never let go of that. Right? Same thing with Pope Leo. When you look at CEOs or leaders across the world, they all have their unique personalities. They're not cookie Cutters. So as an immigrant remembering that while you were learning the language of a new environment, new way of doing business, you settled in. You build a path. What takes you further is not necessarily you being a culture fit. It is what do you add to it. And what you add to it, that's personal to you, helps you build coalitions, information. But then what gives you status is what is your unique perspective and way. You and I have both lived it like we've not compromised on our unique self as identities. And that is what gave us a lot of growth as well. And even now, what we're building is because what is close and unique to our entity as immigrants and what do we want to do in the world? Don't forget, if you forget that, then you will be deemed as a cookie cutter, not as someone who's unconventional.

Speaker B: Yeah, very wise. So much wise advice there to kind of frame that, you know, we. I think you answered a lot of this with, uh, the question around if you're an immigrant leader. And this I think goes for all leaders, like, how do you set yourself up for success in the terms of succession? And I would also add in creating a legacy. And so I think there I would offer kind, uh, of three questions for you to ask. And again, this is, I think, must have if you are, uh, a, uh, senior in your leadership role and a really great to have as an exercise as you're beginning your career. The first one, Sujat, you said, spoke about this, and I want to underscore it, which is the, uh, first question is around, are you providing fresh perspectives? And if you are looking for succession plan for the next leadership cycle, the next phase of your business or the next phase of your leadership team, are you refreshing your perspectives? And uh, the second question would be, are you building the right team who can pivot, not simply carry on the existing status quo? And I think that's important because, uh, you actually don't know what the pivot will be. What I think is for sure, particularly in this age of artificial intelligence and new business models, is that pivoting and agility will be a core skill set for not only companies, but for people. And so the question is, around, are you building people who can pivot? And then the third question that I would ask is, are you creating space for dissent? I think time and again we've seen, you know, like the. Or there's kind of leadership kind of research on this, which is around when you are, you know, one, it's alone at the top. And number two, if you Want to fail fast, Surround yourself with people who think exactly like you. But if you want to succeed, surround yourself with people who have diversified views. And not only that, people who have dissenting views. That's important. So those are the three core questions.

Speaker A: We always land on a framework towards the end, um, which is, you know, the serendipity of Giselle and I working together. I was thinking, I love those three questions. I, uh, think I'll add three mine and then later on we'll see if we turn that into a framework. We'll put it in this video or like when uh, we publish this video, maybe, uh, a collateral with it. I'll try to boil it down to three eyes. I think it's the one insight you need to be insightful. You need to be a source of insight. Especially in this day and age with AI, whatever is available. You need to have a very unique perspective and insight on a topic and in your domain and insight about how to use AI for it as well. Like, uh, for example, that's one. The other eye is inspirational. Are you able to inspire others to mobilize for a cause? And then third, are you a, uh, innovator, even in your own identity? So what is unique, idiosyncratic about your identity, which could be a fourth eye idiosyncratic about your identity that you really hold strongly to and that defines you and you're not shying away from it. Especially as immigrants, we are taught to be like model minorities. But are you really holding true to your identity and then using that as a way to innovate? And look at, you know, Duolingo is a very good example. There's many other businesses that have looked at their identity and said, okay, this is what we want to target and the way we target it. And they've built great businesses and a lot of value. I think that is there. And to tactfully, as an example, I would say, you know, being insightful right now, are you sharing, communicating a perspective, something that is very dear and near to you, either inside the role that you're in, inside the company you're in, or even maybe something outside of the company. Are you able to build an insight, share it, inspire others, uh, and then, uh, make sure that it's true to your identity of who you are, because people will read through it if you're really passionate about this or not. Does do your eyes lit up when you talk about our topics topic. Test that out even in a micro setting, with your friends, in any gathering, in a room, if you're Studying right now, if you are doing a graduate program, an MBA, undergraduate program, PhD, find opportunities where you make a fool out of yourself and you share that. If you do that, you then have an idea about yourself and then your ability to influence, be inspirational, and also ability to create insight. Rumi said, yesterday, I was clever, want to change the world. Today I'm m wise. I want to change myself. So I think when you do these micro experiments, you then realize that, okay, what do I need to change about myself to develop in order to be someone who can be inspirational, insightful, innovative, while keeping true to my idiosyncrarity as an identity? I think that that's what I would leave off with.

Speaker B: How can one follow Rumi and Sujat? I think we have two frameworks. One, the archetype of new leadership, which you mentioned, the, uh, four eyes, uh, insightful, inspiring, innovative, and idiosyncratic. And two, I think the three core questions around are you bringing fresh perspectives? Are you hiring a team or surrounding yourself with, uh, a team who can pivot? And three, are you surrounding yourself with diverse perspectives and particularly surrounding yourself with people who can dissent? And so I think we have two really important frameworks. The, uh, who to aspire to be, the four I's, and how do you get there? The three core questions. Uh, so with that brilliant Giselle that,

Speaker A: that m made me think of, uh, your three questions made me think of the fifth I. And I think that that is be an immigrant. Right? I think. I think Reid Hoffman said it somewhere that, you know, immigration is the best form of entrepreneurship. The hustle, the stuff that you have to do and stay true to yourself. Have strong conviction. When the majority are saying otherwise, they're questioning you, pulling you back. I think that is, I think, still being an immigrant, which means that, go out there, be an entrepreneur. Be an entrepreneur inside your company Hustle experiment. Figure out ways. Don't just follow that. Hey, everyone who had the money and the resources followed this playbook. Learn from that. But make your own playbook and be an immigrant. I think that that's, uh, the fifth time with that. I think. I think that is good to wrap up.

Speaker B: Yes. Yes, with that. Thank you. We really enjoyed this conversation. Um, and thank you so much for continuing to listen to us and for tuning in for this episode of here's the Deal. Please follow us and turn on your notifications so you don't miss an episode, particularly in our new video format. And if you love it, please, we ask that you share this with your family, friends, friends network, other immigrants, um, and give us feedback on the show, let us know what's resonating with you. We, uh, thank you so much, and we will see you again soon.

Speaker A: See you again soon. Have a nice one. Bye.

Speaker B: Bye.