Personal Branding in the AI era | S2 E3

I am Shujat Ahmed and joined with me is my beautiful co host, Giselle Da Campo. Got. We are both immigrants who thrive with some of the prestigious names in corporate America, both in America and across the globe, and then turned into entrepreneurs. We both come from strategy consulting, then moved into tech and now run our own ventures. As immigrants, we know how critical it is to demystify what leadership really takes because along the way we sat in a lot of rooms, right? Some with power, some with pressure, and we've seen what is usually left unsaid. So our goal with this show is to help you lead with clarity and design a career that is more purposeful, not just impressive. So with that, Giselle, what's the deal today? Hey Sujad, how are you? And welcome back everyone. The deal for today is something we're going to talk about that every leader has, but they may not know it, which is branding. And in today's world, being a leader and being in the workforce, the idea of credibility is insufficient. You now have to be credible as well as being visible. And so in this episode we are going to unpack some core concepts around why branding matters. What is it, how to build a brand and what is our viewpoint as immigrants working in the western world. As always, we like to start to give you with a macro view on kind of the framing on the. So what, why is Giselle and Trud talking about this today and what is the deal with branding? So from a macro view, two data points that I'd like to share. The first One is that 70% of employers use social media as part of their research process when they're looking into potential candidates. This goes into the decision making process for you as an individual. Would you be a good fit for the team? And the other interesting statistics all around the ideas of recruitment and joining teams are that 90% of recruiters, so the folks that you would want to be interested in you and for your next role, they leverage platforms like LinkedIn, Facebook, sometimes even Instagram to research their applicant pool. And so social media screening is now a legitimate and standard part of the recruiting process. And so with these two data points in mind, let's get into the discussion. Sujat, I've shared some interesting data points around jobs and getting recruited and getting. And branding. So why does branding matter? You know, we are seeing this already in this market right now. You know, I'll, I'll paint this picture. Think of this that we're in the medieval times or you can think of this as like a Disney movie or a Cartoon where, you know, there's people, most of the people in a village live, you know, in underprivileged conditions. And in the center of it there's this castle and there's very few people live in this castle. And your ways and infrastructure to get to the royalty is very limited. There's few gatekeepers who let you in, and then there's very few limited opportunities for you to present to those in power to give you an opportunity to move you from point A to point B right in your life. And that is the situation we're seeing right now in the market. We see three types of limitations. Number one, there are limited roles in the market. There are fewer roles than the talent available and the talent has been available for a longer period of time given layoffs, stuff that has happened for the last two to three years. Number two, there are few gatekeepers, unlimited gatekeepers, and they're right now also overwhelmed with amount of applications that are coming in. So the only measure of trust that they have is, is mostly people that they know through a referral and that referrals are happening a lot as well. So it's really someone that they work with. So it is few gatekeepers and how do you get to them? And third, just like the medieval example, we have a limited infrastructure. Right now the infrastructure and process of hiring has been flooded with AI, both on the buy side. They've been using AI to evaluate applications. You go on LinkedIn as well, or indeed there's a lot of job applications that are being fulfilled by AI as well. Candidates are also being coached by a lot of consultants to use AI to fill up their resumes and LinkedIn profile. So there's a lot of noise out there. So infrastructure to get to the gatekeepers and stand out is limited. The gatekeepers identification is limited and then the roles are limited. And I think in that essence, branding is very important because you need to stand out despite your resume and LinkedIn and despite the limitations of the hiring process. And we keep hearing this from different events that I go to, where people are asking recruiters, people are looking for help as they're going through interviews as well. And branding comes as a second nature thought to us. But a common question I realized that a lot of people don't know is what is branding? So I will throw that back to you, Giselle. What is personal branding to start off with? In a way, it's a hard question to answer and then I think it's also simple in other ways. So because this is, here's the Deal. Let's keep it simple and I will answer your question with a question and true consulting styles. So maybe a question for you and for our audience. If you could take a very brief moment and think of a product or a service that you really like, maybe something you use on a day to day, or the name of that product or the service that really resonates with you. I'll give you a few seconds. All right. I know that feels quick, but so sure. Jat, what product or service comes to mind for you? Amazon as a service because I use it a lot and then I've been using Mac a lot as a service. Right now I'm in the Mac ecosystem and then I think that's it. That's it. You know, just top of mind. Yeah. So Amazon and Apple. Amazon and Apple. And there have been studies done in the past where some of the top brand names are. When we think about what is a brand that you know, whether you use it or not, quintessentially it has been Apple, Nike, Starbucks and these are global brands that people recognize. Again, irrespective of whether you have experience with it or not, people recognize it. And I share that as a first question because how that applies in the professional working world is similar. Similar. It's if, if I said shuja to someone, what are the words or the feeling that they would have about you? Or put another way, what do people say about you when you are not in the room? So those are, if you think about that question and how you might want to answer it, that is your journey to building a brand. And it matters and it matters greatly because perception in many instances in corporate world, it matters a great deal. And sometimes your precedes you. Yeah. And you know, that is if I play it back, what you're saying is brand is what is said about you when you're not in the room. Right. And that is, you know what we've been pushed over the years as well. And let's dive deeper a bit. So what does that mean in terms of, does that mean that for different individuals there's a different brand or that opinion that they want to go with the example that you asked me about two companies. Right. I'm pretty sure those listening as well, they'll have, you know, different brands will come to their mind. In my example was Amazon and Apple. Amazon is more of a, you know, low cost, risk free, a convenience brand. Right. You know, provide service. To me, Apple is a brand. I, when I started my own business, I wanted to have an Apple laptop Because it is highly reliable, robust. I've been loving using it. And the compatibility with other products, not necessarily with all of their Apple products, but generally because of this, I, I hold it in high regard. Not necessarily the iPhone, not a big fan of it, but I use it. I like the compatibility, so it helps me personally and professionally. So in that essence, I think each individual has a different brand and experience that they emulate, that others, you know, feel from them when they're not in the room. Sometimes, you know, about that brand that that is what people think about you. And then it is either you like what they think about you or you don't like what they think about you. And then there is, well, this is a brand I want to have. So what is, have you seen examples of that? And then if not examples, how does one define what is the brand that I want to have? I think that is a great core question. You know, how do I define my brand? And what's interesting is what you shared just now. There are two words that you shared independently. So Amazon you mentioned convenience. Apple, you mentioned reliable. And so I think that's an interesting comparison to say, what if someone said shoe? John, what is, you know, what is the word that you, what is the first question is what is the word that people normally think about when they think about you and who you are? That's one. And number two, what is the word that you believe are the words that you believe that people are saying about you? And I think the third piece is, is there congruency in those two areas? Who you are in, let's call it the work marketplace and who you believe you are in the work marketplace. And so I think that one, I think that is an exercise that is important for you and I and others listening to the show to, to do. And I think the high level is, you know, you should really think about building your brand because if you don't, someone else will. Someone else will say Amazon is inconvenient or Apple is stylish, yet not reliable, but it's stylish. Right? So I mean, that's an example of, you know, what are words that you want associated with you and what is the marketplace think? And, and you know, what's incongruence? And so I think we like to get very tactical on this show. So let's assume that you, let's assume that you resonate with what we're sharing with you and that branding is indeed important to you and your ability to shape your career trajectory. I think the first thing is you should ask people. Ask people what? And the question is, you know, what do you believe when I'm not in the room? What words do you associate with? Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, if you. Let's assume that, hey, everyone, including our listeners, I don't understand that. All right, there is what is being said about you and you have to. There's multiple ways that you can go and figure that out. But even if you go there, it's like, all right, so why is that important? It is important because the data that you shared and then the anecdotes I was sharing from the industry feel that we're seeing about job market and then the hiring process and the gatekeepers is that either you know all the right people and you have access to all the opportunities and they are chatting with you about those opportunities. So already their brand is validated. But for majority, you're like, I am applying and applying for roles right now, or I'm in a job and I am afraid what is going to happen in my current role, I need to move out. But the market is really tight right now. I'm also applying elsewhere and I'm not getting any response. That means the market is really bad. I don't have the energy to go find out who the folks are. What all of that says is, you in a very tight market, you don't have the right brand in front of the right people for you to stay hot in the market and for you to stay relevant in the market. Yeah, I generally agree with that. I would like for us to actually unpack two things. Number one is kind of your, your let's talk, let's say your social media brand, what shows up on your LinkedIn and other social media platforms, and then your branding, like your physical branding, say, at work. I will take the second piece first and share an interesting piece that I saw that I thought was very impactful. And it is a video. You should all look it up. It's by Carla Harris, who is a senior leader in Morgan Stanley, and she shares this really fascinating story about getting promoted and branding. Not exactly those words, but long story short is that she was aiming for very senior roles and she was missing the mark. But she was so close. And so she started to ask around and say, you know, like, you know, what's, what's missing? And effectively what she found out is that there are certain, when you get to the highest echelons of Morgan Stanley, there are certain brand expectations about you as a professional. And one of them, one of them was A word. And that word was tough. So not only do you have to be a good deal maker, you got to close the deals. You have to be very specific about around a topic. And financial services or in finance, you have to meet all of those things. And you also have to be tough. And she was like, well, I guess people are not saying that I am tough. So what she did is one, she kind of this, well, framework is like, one, ask people. It's like, hey, you know, I'm not tough. Two, you know, she started to be intentional about it. So she was saying, literally describing herself as, you know, well, you and I are working together, Shajat. We're going to film this, you know, episodes. I just want to let you know, you know, I'm going to work hard, but, you know, you're going to work hard, too. This is. I'm tough. This is going to be tough, but we're going to have a great product. It's going to be an excellent product. And so she started intentionally saying that about herself to others, and then others started saying that about her. Carla, she's great, she's excellent, but, boy, she's tough too. And so, long story short, she ended up getting promoted. And so. And so that's, I think, think a great example of, you know, why internally, you know, it's important to build that brand. And then I think, you know, how does that then translate to the external kind of branding in the marketplace? So, one, watch it. It is such a good video and very impactful. I learned a lot. I use it. And two, I wanted to kind of put a framework around how you action this, which is one, ask people what is your brand? What are the words that you would use to describe me? Number two, be intentional. Once you find out what those words be intentional about the words that you would want associated with you. And three, start to socialize that and share that with others. I am. So that's the framework that I would say, one, ask to be intentional about how you diagnose and think about it. And three, shape your brand. I am of the opinion that if you are not shaping your brand, if you are not defining your words, then someone else will be it. Recruiters, your teammates, an AI algorithm. You know, perception is being formed about you with or without your input. So my take is shape your whole. I am so happy that you mentioned Carla Harris. That's the first person who come to came to mind. The video that you're referencing is from the LinkedIn Talent Connect 2018. So everyone can search that I was there live and she was presenting. It was one of the most moving moments and it's still like etching my brain. I've shared this with so many people, both while I was at LinkedIn, but even outside in coaching people in. And what she talked about was three adjectives that you want to be known for and see if the organization or whatever you are pursuing as an opportunity values those three adjectives. If not, find out what are the three adjectives and then make yourself move towards that. If not, this place is not for you, this opportunity is not for you. And in her case, toughness was the adjective and I loved that she then used what are the distribution channels? She used the distribution channels through her meetings of people to say this about her, about the adjective of being tough. So I completely agree. And I think going back to what it means then for this environment right now is that one is what, what are you, what are you known for when you're not in the room? So right now, if you're applying, there's about almost every job posting has like thousand applications like within a few days. And if you're not in the network of the hiring manager and the hiring manager does not work with you, they are looking at most likely either a resume or LinkedIn profile and a LinkedIn profile. How do you stand out? I think that's why branding matters right now. Because what people say without even meeting you and without you even having the chance of a first, even interview or a business meeting, why? How do they find out? And I think figuring that out right now is so important because it is. Table 6. What is being said about you when you're not in the room? How do you get people to say what you want them to say and how do you be present in front of them? And I think it is so important not just for those looking for roles, I think it is important for the future as well. As we know, for example, in tech, I know when a lot of tech leaders for very unique roles, hot monetary roles the executive recruiters look for show that you've built a followership. If you left with other people, leave as well. And that is a brand. As a leader you have that where you go, good talent follows you as well or not. And that is evaluated. And then thirdly, as a business, you will notice that businesses have turned into content creators because they've realized how important this branding is. Businesses that were already very rich. So if you think about there's the all in podcast, right? It is very simple production value since it became famous all the other VCs start putting money, doing higher production value. Podcasts still not to the level of all in because they realize that yes, they have money, but there is an affiliation. When they go out in the market, people start recognizing you, right? So it also creates opportunities, but also creates social equity for you. Similarly, I've seen a lot of startups now say, hey, rather than marketing, they've gone on to podcasts, built their own content. I'm building mine as well. As a business owner, you're creating content as well to create awareness. And you've seen a lot of these content creators who are also businesses, rise up and grow their business and actually have value to add to people. Which again tells you branding is really important. And branding is not just fake branding, it's authentic branding and getting people to know what you're good at and what you want to be known for and get in front of them, bypass the infrastructure. So highly, highly important. I want to pick up on a thread that you mentioned earlier about the job marketplace. So high level you were mentioning. One, supply is greater than demand, two, few gatekeepers and three, AI is disrupting the data flow. And so I thought it might be fun to look at our profiles from an AI perspective. So I'll do one on ChatGPT. So I think today, you know, first, I think in the beginning and in the beginning is really just a few years ago, right? People Google you. So as a, a professional, as a leader, it's important to one, Google yourself. So if you have not Googled yourself, please do that. Very important. So you're aware of what pops up and then the next iteration, particularly for professionals in the workplace, is people LinkedIn you, right? They want to know where what's your professional accomplishments and what is your pedigree. And now I bet people are using their favorite. What if we do a fun Little Exercise and ChatGPT ourselves? Or your favorite. So Sujat and I have differing views on our favorite chat bots. So all good though, so then you'll get to experience. I love that. Let me set some context on why we're doing this. Is I think is the when you think about branding, for you to stand out. If having a resume and LinkedIn are table sticks. When people Google you, what else do they find about you? Do you stand out? Because that's your opportunity to stand out. That's your opportunity to own a piece of the Internet. And if you don't own it, then you're relying on standard pieces, which is a resume and LinkedIn and Giselle and I were discussing. I love that she talked about ChatGPT. Right now there's different chatbots for different purposes. So I think for diversity sake, I'll use Perplexity. Because I use perplexity for researching people or what's out there and seeing how SEO plays with it. But why don't you use ChatGPT? Let's start with you. And then I'll do the same thing for me on Perplexity. Let's do it. So, all right. And I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. So here's my ChatGPT result, and I did a very simple lookup. If you want to use different frameworks for your prompting, feel free to go ahead. But I just made a very simple ask. Do an Internet search on Giselle Del Campogatum. And so, number one, I think it's important to. To know this. And number two, by the way, this is the first time I am doing this, so taking a bit of a risk here, but it's all good in service of learning with you all. And then let's see what pops up. So first thing is that is me. So. So that's great. And I love. Okay, so let me read this out. Just a summary of it, and you tell me if this is the right branding that you wanted. Right. And for those in the audience, of course, who are listening to this, you can't see, what we did is we basically did a prompt and to save time, we didn't want to do it live. We just did it. We didn't edit anything. So right now you're seeing Giselle's screen with ChatGPT, where she just did a simple prompt. Do an Internet search on Giselle Jacompo Gotham. So this is also the beauty of immigrant names, that sometimes our names are very unique. So it only found you. Right. That may not be the case with me. So what I found out is I, you're a market of 1. So profile and career highlights. So this again, it shows you as when I read it and I'm like, oh, wow. It's a. She's a founder and CEO, so of OnPoint Capital. It's a business advisory focused on helping organizations around technology and business strategy. Well, what has she done in the past? Oh, at LinkedIn. Okay. Big brand name. She was an operating leader. Wow. Okay. And then so I look at the numbers there, look at the roles. Wow. Very well. Diversified portfolio. She co founded and expanded PwC's global financial services innovation center. Amazing. I have to say, Sujat this feels very in the spotlight. So just want to let you all know for our, just, you know, for our audience is I think we're meant to feel this way when we look ourselves up. And so it is highly uncomfortable. Nonetheless, it's important so we can keep going. But I just wanted to. That's also the immigrant document. It is. This is not fake image, just the immigrant talking as well. Because it's very weird for us to hear this. So when I look at this, you know, it's telling me what you're doing right now. And it is pretty good. It's very different than what I would find in a resume or LinkedIn profile. Good summary of like what you've done in the past. You're also advising others, you're on board, you recognize your credentials as well. And other than that, it's also picked up your social media stuff. So if you scroll up in this example, if you scroll up. So I think here's what I'm finding from it. So if it started with your profile and career highlights, your current role and your past leadership, your board and advisory position, now I would have found that, let's say on LinkedIn and on a resume, I would not have found that in this way. Why? Because you have your own website, you also have your publications. Right. You have a presence on the net. You're on social media as well. That it is also picking up from there. So that's one based on where you've been on panels, on discussions on top of it. Even if the AI did this for everyone, everyone's LinkedIn and resume, it specially calls out a separate section, thought leadership and education and it says you're a substack contributor and you also teach a boot camp on strategy and planning. Took that out. What means is it is your branding like the work that you're doing. It is great work. It has picked that up as well and said listen, let me market it for you. Yeah, also picked up the rating from it, right? Yeah. And then it summarized it further. So I think this is a very good example of had you not done that, like not focus on your branding as a solopreneur and then also as someone who could have. You could be working in corporate right now and doing this. It would have only picked up the initial experience and education and would have been very similar to someone just looking at a resume on LinkedIn. Right. And probably would not have synthesized the way it has done here because of your external presence. It is reading more data points about you. Yeah, it's interesting I will stop sharing now. That was a very useful, albeit very humbling experience. Someone was asking for advice this week and I would say take this then. And even in this market, if you feel like everything is the same, you could put this in other AI tools and find unique ways of presenting yourself and reaching out to hiring managers. If not hiring managers reaching doing cold emails, but sending out stuff could be a podcast about you could be use an AI tool to summarize your profile in a video to others. There's ways that you can do that, but all of those are tactics behind a strategy for branding and we'll get to because a lot of people confuse strategy versus tactics. Let me show what we found on me on Perplicity and for those who are wondering, we did this literally as we were just about to hit record. So we did something similar on Perplicity. I did said what do you know about Shajat Amal? First of all, I told Giselle that there's going to be multiple profiles and I don't think it's going to find me right away. Good thing is of the first four pictures at least two of them are mine. So 50%. All right, very good. And then if you look at the summary it is I have a very unique profile. Pick you up. Pick you up. Even though I picked it from a picture standpoint 50% but picked up your actually that's something I didn't notice of the pictures at 50% but of the profile it picked me up. Interesting and not others correct. And it's then you know, when I look at it, when I have worked in supply chain and strategy and HR and people analytics and future work and I'm building my own. It is interesting that it is my website is being refreshed right now for my branding. It picked up exactly what would I have wanted someone to say. But I've not actually put that up in a coherent manner. It already did some read that I put on the top around analytics, AI strategy, organizational culture. Right. And even these words, I mean I would use this to describe you so so there's congruence in that the integrating AI with human centered approaches in org design. So I think these are so these are words that I would use and it's picking it up one I hope that those are the words that you intend for yourself and if not of course there's as as you're as you're pointing out what might you do to influence this data set is interesting actually I should use this except this is a good exercise. So I so I did a similar exercise sometime back where rather than searching my name, I searched for the topics. And as I drilled further in the topics on the third trial, perplicity found me. And I said, okay, that is really good. Right? It's feeding off from SEO, all of that. But I'm like, I haven't done much as a solopreneur trying to figure out SEO and all of that. It's still working. So it means whatever I'm doing, it's catching. And this is actually a pretty good summary. I should use this for my LinkedIn, but would you mind just scrolling down for a moment? On top of that would be the additional portion. Right. That would have come outside of my LinkedIn resume. Yeah. So, Juana, this is quite an illustrious accomplishments that you have in terms of. I mean, you did do this. I just wanted to call out. I just. It's amazing, really great work. And two, I often get asked from leaders that I coach and different leadership circles that are interested in moving up in certain organizations. And one of the questions that's always asked is, do I need to do thought leadership? Meaning do I need to write, do I need to present, and how visible does it need to be? And I mean, generally my answer is yes. Especially when you get to certain leadership roles and companies, it becomes more and more important as part of articulating the expertise that you bring to the table. But I think seeing the results and in two different AI platforms that it's specifically calling out thought leadership and impact, I think that has got to be fascinating because that in itself might distinguish you across other candidates. Because if you think about what it summarized first, it summarized your professional background, your education, global experience seems quite unique in terms of, of the call out. So if you think about if everyone will have what you're doing today, your professional background and education, others may, others likely will have that also, especially if you've been in the workforce for quite some time. But others may not have thought leadership and a distinctive experience, whether that's global or maybe you did something else that would be called out as unique enough so that it has its own category in the summarization of your background. So I think this is really fascinating. Like, literally, like to the eye, you are already distinctive. You have two more categories. Interesting. And actually, I should do a separate digging in on this. It's funny. I'll share this anecdote. I'd not planned for this for a discussion today, but the thought leadership and impact says advocate for a prosperity first approach, which is my COIN term. It's one of my articles on my website. I haven't published more blogs on my website because I'm refreshing and we're gonna, we're moving to a new platform so you're gonna see a lot more regular blogs. It is funny, I wrote that, that article sometime last year where I. That article is also my submission for a very prestigious institute. But I know that a lot of the prestigious institutes are old school. So it was a way of me also testing that if I have to go do something around AI, do you have to break all the gatekeepers because they are still living in a fool's paradise. So it's like a very prestigious institute that I had the entire profile, everything I would apply to, but they were looking for a lot of, you know, things that's a very corporate. That I didn't have. I had something out of the box. So what I did was for submitting my thesis, I said, okay, that is my submission, but I'm actually going to write this as a blog post as well because I am thinking about it and building my perspective. Some time back I wrote that and while I was writing that, I wrote the Prosperity First Approach and tons of people started reaching out to me for that. I'm like, no, that's just a. A thought piece I put out down the road. Whatever my submission was did not get accepted. And I said, well, you were, you were a good candidate. But we're looking for. Basically they were looking for safe stuff. People who were like, you know, I won't bash them. But the market branding, end of the day is what it is about the market. The funny thing is I wrote that and then I've been working on AI. I didn't publish anything else. I did not make anything public when I was working on AI at that time, I get a call from a conference to be a keynote speaker on AI and future work. That is the conference where I had the other institute where I had made a submission. Once people go through that institute, some of their alums want to be sought after by this conference to come and present. And my same submission that they felt was, you know, too out there and not safe enough for them because that's what a lot of prestigious institutions look for, whoever they want to sell to. That conference is a market that gives you the signal. They're like, no, they paid for me to come and present the details of this. So branding is in the market. You are in a market and if you have something solid to say and it is of value, is the market is telling you that it will bypass the old gatekeepers. It's a brilliant story. You leapfrogged into a very important space that is was important to you and your topic area. And one, you approached it in a very different manner. Two, you did it with your own thoughts. Whilst it may not have netted the outcome that you expected, it sounds like it actually netted a the proof that I'm on the right path. I don't need to worry about trying to be affiliated with Institute. I need to go do this on my own. And then I said to go do this on my own. Which again comes back to coming Bringing back to our discussion around for our podcast is two things, two questions that come to my mind. One is, is this different for ICs versus managers versus leaders? And then especially both of us as immigrants, what is our immigrants take on this? So on the first question is, is branding different for individual contributors or leaders? I don't think there's a difference. I think what's important is I think it goes back to that framework of, you know, is there congruence in what you believe you are creating or providing in the workplace with what people believe you are creating and providing and whether you are an individual contributor or a leader. The those same questions apply because, you know, when we go to work we have have quarterly performance or perhaps in in other places it's a different kind of cadence. But you are, you are evaluated and part of the evaluation. When people think about what is your contribution, they will think about it. And this is neither right nor wrong. This is effectively how it is, which is your reputation will travel faster than what's on paper. You know, that paper being your resume or your performance review document. And why would you not want to get ahead of that? Why would you not want to shape that? And so I think it is important to everyone in the workforce. And right now what we're talking about like branding, right? Make sure that you stand out through work beyond your resume and LinkedIn. It matters now for both ICs and leaders because it is, it is going to be looked after. They are with AI. It is very easy now to set up things if you don't have the resources but you want to do it on your own. It's very easy to set up your website, set up your platforms and get your word out there and the algorithms will take care of, make sure that you get to the right audience and you'll find your own audience as well. It doesn't matter how niche you are. And if you're worried that Listen, this feels cringy or it's not. It is. If you feel like that, you only talk a certain way and you don't want to follow the rules of what typical marketers are doing. All good. The algorithms will help you find the right audience that you need. You just need to be consistent at, you know, getting your word out there. I will say from the immigrant stake, though, immigrant stake, I know it is very difficult because we come from cultures that most immigrants are, and one is cultural, but then second is contextual as well, that when you do move to another location where you're moving because you want to find a better opportunity and you now want to fit in, that situation itself puts you at a crossroad, right, where you either go for struggling and trying to find safety, or you're struggling, but you're saying, all right, what else do I have got to lose? I'm going to go all in and try to leave Frog here. Right? And so you see these, like, two different lines come up, two different segments of immigrants that come up. So. But because of that, as we, you know, start our career and we get some initial validations of we are, if something to offer, someone's willing to pay us, someone's willing to invest in us, we now want to not lose that after having seen either our parents struggle or having seen ourselves struggle. And that also has built into it that, hey, just keep your head down, do the hard work, and hard work will pay off. And I think at least I'll start. I'll start off with this. And then I know Giselle has a very good perspective on this as well, that I learned earlier on in my career that while I'm doing hard work, I was like, I don't have the pedigree, I don't have the membership to our country club. LinkedIn was the closest to a country club many years ago, where I'm like, all right, without having a membership, I can actually just message someone and say, can I get some perspective from you? But other than that, I was like, I am sitting in industry in a role where when you're in a function, let's say you're in supply chain or finance or marketing, people come to you for something they need. And I was like, you know, where I'm seeing people succeed and people who grew up here and were non immigrants, they're good at sales, they're good at marketing. And the general immigrant mentality would be that maybe they're just good at talking just the thing in North America, they're just really good at talking, they probably don't know this stuff. And then I started realizing that is tough. They know their stuff as well. They're just good at articulating and they're also good at forming relationships. So it I had to force myself to get into situation which is how I ended up in consulting that I need to go and put myself out there, sell myself, learn these tactics and even though after years it still holds you back because you feel like I don't feel like marketing, I don't feel like sharing out there what I'm working on. I don't feel like putting out a perspective because tons of my other immigrant friends and family will make backhanded compliments on comments on it. So I think it is very critical to understand that immigrants have done well everywhere. They're as Reid Hoffman said, they are the best form of entrepreneurship and it does not happen without branding. And you have to put yourself out there, not worry about who else is commenting on it. The only two people you need to be worried about is I read this recently. So I love this quote which is the eight year old you that wanted to do something and be something and the 80 year old you is going to say did I not just do the right stuff? That was required because I was afraid that someone else will make a comment in my community. So I think it's those are the only two people need to worry about. And it is difficult to break through. But it is the most important thing for immigrants, especially in the environment we're in where you create your own market, you create your own opportunity. That's brilliant. I really like the 8 year old and 80 year old. One is aspirational and the other one is thinking about legacy. And you know what did fear hold you back from doing so? I really appreciate you sharing that and I think similar to there's there and look, we're not speaking for all immigrants. We do represent very sizable, probably about 1.5 billion people of the slice of the earth. And in general, how many of you resonate with a statement which is I have done great work, I do excellent work, I will then get promoted. I'm a total shoe in right? Because you did great work, you're excellent and everyone should recognize it. That's exactly how I thought. And let me tell you, my first job out of college was in investment banking. I failed at the game of being a working professional because I put my head down, I did excellent work and that's literally all I did. And then people got into certain projects and I often Wondered why them I delivered better, I did this better. And long story short is excellence is excellent. You should keep your excellence bar and execute on that. I think from my experience and even thinking back on the example that we shared earlier, Sujat, about Carla Harris, who's this powerful banker, right, market maker in the world, you know, there's this perspective of we put in our time, we, we delivered value and it's going to happen for us. And, and I hope that is the case for you all who are on that path. I think the general data says, and I think both of our personal experiences say it can get you up to a certain level. But if you're aiming for, you know, a VP level or a director and above or people manager, and especially in entrepreneurship, one must share with others the delightful outcomes and impact that you are creating. Because as we said, perception precedes you and why not go shape your. I love that. And I think something you had said to me offline as well, right, that it's as immigrants, we need to reframe presence as part of the job, not just performance. And I think a lot of the time it's like, hey, I am just here to get my work done and that's it. It's not. And especially as we're headed in a world where, you know, there's fears about AI and you know, how do you one up each other that you're using AI better and you're augmented with AI and you're providing some value, you have to be creating that perception with your presence. So I will, as we're, you know, hitting close to time, as always, want to synthesize all of this into a framework that is actionable for people around this topic. And so I've been taking some notes and I mean, let me, let me take a first stab at it and then, of course, throw stuff at it. I think there are three aspects that we looked at, which is what is a brand and then there's what is the strategy for the brand and then what are the tactics to hit that strategy for context. A lot of people confuse strategy and tactics. Strategy is, you know, for who you want to be as a company or as an individual, what are the choices you make. And generally for the longer run, your choices remain the same. The tactics change. And so what we talked about today is higher level, what defining what is a brand, what is branding strategy overall? And then tactics are some of them. We covered more. We can cover more later on as well. So starting with what is a brand is, you know, what do people say about you when you're not in the room? And the question we put there is not what is the brand? It is what is the brand that you want to be known for? And underneath it are sub questions. Well, the brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. Figure out what is the brand that you want to be known for. And then third, figure out what's the gap between the two for you to get there. And then when we get to strategy, what I picked up and I'll put these three. So I'll take a pause if there's other to add. What I heard from you are around three things from you. And also from like what I was sharing, I was thinking about it. I think there are three aspects. There is excellence, there is relevance, and then there is presence. So the strategy for what brand you want to be known for. Number one, you have to be the. There's some excellence that you deliver for the specific topic, the competency, the domain, right? That is table six. You have to be really good at what you do. Then second, make sure that what you do is relevant to the market. It is relevant to the market you're in, it is relevant to the market you want to be in. It is relevant to where this market is headed. Think about AI right now, whatever is your domain expertise, is it relevant in the AI era? And. And then the third is what we say then, making sure that you have presence about both the excellence and the relevance in the market. That it is visible, it is, people know about it, people talk about it in. And I'll pause there. Is there anything else you think we should add in the strategy for personal branding? It's more around the. It's more around the how one might think about it. So for instance, before I was mentioning, folks would ask me, like, how important is thought leadership? How much effort do I have to put into it? Should I have a newsletter, write a book? I think the level of magnitude aside, what is most important is that you're doing something that is important for your development. And as Shujat mentioned, that's relevant for the space that you are in. And that doesn't mean that you have to create a website right now, figure out, you know, some kind of content writing, you know, topics and have a cadence around. Doesn't have to be that complicated. Perhaps that is the path if you are creating something along those lines, that it's important to have, you know, high levels of proliferation or distribution. But for the normal folks like you and I just you doing our day to day work. What that could look like is one, be intentional about your next performance review. You can still do the gap assessment we discussed earlier. Ask people what work they thought you were, you know, they think you're doing. And you know, if they list three things but you've actually worked on five, you know there's a gap, right? That, that is just as relevant as a branding exercise as is perhaps you posted a, you wrote an article and you posted the piece and you wanted engagement and you know, how might you distribute that? So I just wanted to kind of caveat it by, you know, building your brand doesn't mean you have to generate lots of new and different things and activities for yourself. It could be in your normal course of professional development and day to day at work. Thank you for that caviar. And so if I put that again, that framing of excellence, relevance, presence. So I think in terms of excellence there are two aspects. There is, what do people see you and reach out to you for and value you for? This is sort of the end outcome that they see that you deliver either at work or even outside of your main job. People reach out to you for something and you're known. It just gives you a signal that you're known for this. What they don't see is the work you've done to get there. So you have two parts of excellence. One is the outcome that people see and reach out to you for. And the second is, you know, the specific discipline, routine, the process you've done. And as an example, you will see some of the people who have become better at their branding talk about their process. They don't talk about how to, they talk about how I. Because in that, how I process, they know someone will find it valuable because it leads to a certain outcome. Because you have lived it yourself, you know it is excellent, it works for you, you have proven results for yourself and you're sharing that. So that's one, that's something you could share as a tactic. Relevance is you gotta ask that because people reached out to you, someone needs this. So you figure out that there's a need for this. If not, you can also go look at massive trends and see what is trendy right now. Where is this market headed, right? If you're in business strategy and operations, if you're in marketing, if you're in hr, you're like, I have something to offer, people reach out to me. And I see right now fears around AI. So what's the trend? Where is this headed? Can I talk about this that people are top of mind and easy tactic is you could search it on YouTube, YouTube search, Google search, perplexity search, chatgpt search and you can figure out whether common terms and you'll know, okay, this is going to be relevant. And then the last on presence, I would say two parts again, masses or the classes, right? Do you need this mass. Mass presence for what you are doing and there's certain effort involved with it. Like do you want to reach everyone or is it. You want a very few people and you want to even put a premium to it. And that's where I said classes. It's a term. Classes to the mass is a marketing term. So not that I'm saying that there's different classes. What that means is to what Giselle was saying that you don't need to do everything. You then know that. All right, I know that there's a need for it. People have reached out to me and where the people who would find this interesting, they all roam around around newsletters. Then go write a newsletter or they I've looked at them and they roam around on substack and a great go to substack. If not, hey, they all watch YouTube. Go to YouTube, right? Or they're mostly on Reddit. Go start a Reddit channel, right? So I think it is. You don't have to do everything. These are all tactics for your present. And we will eventually articulate, you know, put this in a visual as well later on so that you all can see and post it on our social media. With that, we are hitting time. So I would say, you know, thank you again for, you know, listening to us. Hopefully you found this valuable. Please do send us any comments. We are now on YouTube. So on YouTube you can put comments into the video or you could put comments on Spotify as well. Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. Just leave us some comments. We're also thinking, Giselle and I of putting out a maybe a platform where people can have special questions for us and we can do a special session of just answering those questions. But let us know. Leave your thoughts in the comments and make sure you like and subscribe because it the closest signal we get that hey, people are liking it. So we continue getting courage to building this. Until next time, thank you and have a nice one. Thank you everyone.