275. Why culture beats technology in transformation with Tomas Hollingsworth

Narrator: Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, managing director of itas, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and Data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, uh, the future, um, of finance.

Hannah Munro: So, hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I'm your host, Han Munro, and here with me today is Thomas Hollingsworth, who is the director of technology at, ah, BW Workplace Experts. Now, BW Workplace Experts is a bit of a mouthful, but I got there. Thomas, tell us a little bit about what you guys do.

Thomas Hollingsworth: Let's go for BW from now on. Let's make it really simple and easy. So we are an interior fit out company and we're based in central London. Um, we're on a period of huge growth. Um, we build fantastic workplaces, um, for both professional organizations and education. Um, and we deliver some fantastic projects for brand names that you'd recognize every day. Um, the office is more important than ever. The workplace is more important than ever. And that's kind of what we deliver on a daily basis.

Hannah Munro: So it's not just fantastic, um, workplaces that you guys have built. You've also built out a really exciting, ah, leadership program. So tell us a little bit about the BW source. Where did the idea come from?

Thomas Hollingsworth: So it's actually one of those things where at BW there's a real culture of stepping outside your comfort zone, getting into that stretch zone, doing things that you probably shouldn't do within your normal job role at a normal company. Um, and I'm, um, one of those people that always looks for more, looks for doing something better. And it was probably about two years ago now. I just finished my, uh, mba and uh, I didn't really know what to do with myself. Had all these weekends and time free after spending three years, uh, studying for an mba. And I wanted to bring something back to the company from my learnings. Um, and also when I joined bw, we had a previous leadership program that was really well respected and something that I really enjoyed. And I also wanted to continue that on as we change and grow as a company. And so I went and sat in a room, uh, with my line manager and I said, how about if I have a go at doing this leadership program, I think I can build something different. I put a little presentation together, uh, and I got permission to go and rip up the rule book and start again.

Hannah Munro: Well, that's always dangerous when they let you rip up the rulebook. So, you know, what was key to you in delivering this programme? What was it that you're looking to achieve?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think there were so many elements to it, but a huge part of it was the culture. I think we have such an amazing culture at bw. It does feel like a small business that's growing into a much bigger business. And part of that is everyone knowing each other and getting together, solving problems together in a room. And I think on the first leadership program that I, uh, experienced, getting to know people from across the business doesn't always happen. And so that kind of forces you into a room to get to know other people. So that was a big part of it was people getting to know each other, having fun together, solving problems. And then the next part of it was building a culture for the company that moves forward, that represents our society, that we live in and also for the next generation. We, obviously there's a big push in the industry to attract new talent to the industry. Um, we have an aging workforce, a fantastic workforce, but we need some young blood coming through. And I think they're looking for something different. They're not just looking for that paycheck, they're looking for a company that provides an innovative forward looking program that's going to support them throughout their career. And so providing that was a big part of it. Um, and whilst we call it a leadership program, I wanted to create something a bit different that didn't feel stuffy, that wasn't kind of, you're sitting in a room somewhere in Slough being taught by someone that's regurgitating the same information. I wanted to make it fun, interactive, where people thought that they could really make a change with what they're doing in that room.

Hannah Munro: And obviously in your role as director of Technology change and implementing, you know, implementing new technology is key. You know, what components of your leadership program actually supported that chain, that internal change piece?

Thomas Hollingsworth: Yeah, I think change management is the biggest challenge you'll ever have in technology. You can build all these systems, but what you can't build are the people around it. Without something like the VW source, which what we call the leadership program internally. Um, and I think a big part of that was preparing people for the culture of the company to become something that's driving forward something that's Innovative. So I think the big part of it was once you start talking about innovation and pushing things forward, doing things differently, thinking about things differently, that gives people almost permission to do so and start some thinking about um, was a real moment for me. We did some um, puv just perceived user value about BW and we had a marketing campaign at the time which was built with personality about people bringing themselves to um, our industry and um, being themselves. And as soon as that marketing campaign started to grow traction, it was amazing how people picked that up in the puv. And that kind of inspired me to think if we start talking about being an innovative company that changes regularly, that adopts this fast pace of change, that thinks differently, then people will eventually just start to believe and start doing it. So I think once you prepare people for the change that's coming and realize that they're coming on the journey with you, they're a big part of that journey. I think then it starts to change. And that actually now probably one of the biggest challenges we have is slowing that change down so that we put it into bite sized components that we're not just constantly changing for the sake of changing and thinking about things differently. That we have a strategy, uh, and that's kind of a victim of our own success of the program, is that now people are developing so many ideas that we've had to think about the guardrails that we put in place in order to deliver our standard business and also these innovations that are coming forward.

Hannah Munro: So I really, um, what's the word? I really resonate with that, you know, because that's one of the things that I see all the time is people getting really excited about change and being a bit like a kid in a sweetie, ah, shop. How do you manage, I guess when you've got loads of ideas coming from your left, right and center, how do you as an organization think about prioritization and whether to go or no with an idea?

Thomas Hollingsworth: It's actually really interesting because as part of the BW Source program, you have to think of initiative that you can control in the business. So something that you can make a difference on, it can be anything. Doesn't have to be within your business unit, but you have to be able to implement this and it has to be something real, it has to be something that someone supports and then you have to pitch it at the end. But you have a huge amount of feedback from the people who are also on your cohort throughout it all. So there's lots of opportunities to pitch that. One of the Methods is the three, two, one method where you get three minutes to explain it, they get three minutes to feedback, two minutes to explain it, one minute. And eventually you have to make it so concise that you can put it into one minute. Then once we've got all those ideas in one pool, um, we've got something internally called the user voice where they can post those ideas, people can upvote, uh, them down, vote them, give comments, and then eventually you see which ideas resonate with the entire business and then you have some kind of natural community ranking in which you can do things. Um, and obviously business leaders can then pick out those ideas and push them forward. If they're quick, wins or they're very easy to achieve. And I think it's just that natural priority that comes from that. And in a way it's really good because you're never rejecting anyone's idea. You're just in a queue and a queue of priority and feasibility. And you've got real reasons why those things aren't necessarily happening in an instant. Um, because when you've got this pace of change. I think it was really interesting in Houston, um, there was a presenter and he said, we're currently sitting at the, um, slowest form of change that we're ever going to see within the rest of our lives. So things are only going to get faster and, um, people are only going to want to change faster and we just need to make sure that we're doing it in a very sustainable way.

Hannah Munro: So that's a really interesting point, right, in terms of pace of change, because one thing I've always noticed, that every organization has their own pace and it sounds like you at BW have quite a fast one. How do you manage that pace as an organization? Keep everybody working to the same level, um, and making sure the day job gets done.

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think our recruitment process is pretty, pretty impressive. Um, we have some amazing people in our recruitment teams. Each department head is very motivated. Um, I often joke with people in the interview process that you'll either be here for a very, very long time or a very, very short time. There doesn't seem to be anything in between. And I think if you are one of those people that just want to come and coast, fly under the radar, then you probably won't last very long because everyone is very motivated, everyone has the same pace and there's a certain type of person that can fit in with that. Um, and then part of the BW source was to encourage other people to join that pace and find their own Pace find their own way of dealing with that pace. So equipping you with the tools to deliver that sustainable growth that we want to achieve.

Hannah Munro: And tell us a little bit about the tools that are in that toolbox. How do you help people, um, you know, either speed up their pace or cope with the pace of change. What are some of the tools and techniques that you guys talk about?

Thomas Hollingsworth: The whole program was designed by, um, our partners at Ginger, um, and it was a very natural selection for them. We'd already done some work with public speaking, um, and about amplifying, creating effectively, like TED talks within our business. We'd already done some work with them and then we came to them and said, we want to develop this program. And they kind of just got our values. We did some workshops. We came in the room together. They have a very kindred spirit in terms of their companies expanding very quickly internationally. They're dealing with some amazing companies across the world who we can also benefit from. And then they take our learnings back to them as well. So it's kind of, they're building this community of leadership, um, and they've also got some partner companies. One of the really important thing for me, I sat in a room, I got loads of feedback about what people wanted from across the business in this leadership program. And one of the things, I sat in a room, um, with one of our commercial managers and he said to me, I don't want to sit in a room and just listen to one person's opinion for an entire course. I want to know from multiple sources. And, um, I completely agreed with him. You know, we don't just accept one source anymore. If we read something on BBC News, we'll go and fact check it. You know, on ChatGPT, we'll go to Reddit, we'll, we'll read into it a lot more. And that's what people want from a training course. I think that was so important to get the other subject area experts. So throughout the course you have one guide, um, which Nick's an incredible person. She really understands and got under the skin of our business. And then each individual course is run by a subject area expert. And we actually partnered with a company called Gazing and they do a lot of sports coaching. And one of their things is the red to blue method, which is compartmentalizing. I can very rarely say that first off. So I think I need to tell a ray about saying that. Yes, see, there we go again.

Hannah Munro: There we go.

Thomas Hollingsworth: Um, about putting your thinking into categories that you can control and not control. So red to blue and how you can bring those things forward. So you're concentrating on those things that you can control and then eventually everything works out and you're a lot clearer and you have that diamond edge thinking that you really need to deliver solutions and deliver change. So I think that it sounds very, very simple, but we very rarely actually do these things. So a lot of the concepts within the, uh, leadership program are very, very simple. However, we're always ensuring that it's accessible to everyone and it's really impactful.

Hannah Munro: So tell us more about that red and blue thinking. So what does that mean and what is it that you talk about with your team?

Thomas Hollingsworth: It's quite interesting because I think I'm especially guilty of myself if you make a mistake in work. Um, especially from my perspective, when I make a mistake in work, I go home and I think, overthink about that thing that happened in the past. I'm, uh, thinking about all the bad things that could happen as a result of it. And when you think of it from a red to blue, so taking those things that you can't control that have happened in the past, that mistake has happened. But what can you do? What can you control in the future to stop that happening again or to make sure that you're prepared for it when it happens again? And I think just that simple shift in thinking, um, from a very negative side, you know, I've done things badly in the past to in the future. It's taught me something that I'm never going to do again. Really, really works.

Hannah Munro: So about, I guess changing. Is the colors reflective of what side of your brain you use? You know, the chimp.

Thomas Hollingsworth: You're not going to reveal the whole, whole module in this one. You have to go and speak to the amazing guys are gazing from. Um, um. It really is just such a simple concept. Um, um. But I know it helps lots. It's had lots of sports stars become a lot more, um, prolific in their, in their industry even by not doing so much training. Think very simple things. You know, in an athlete's world, you should get out there, get on the pitch, be kicking all the time, eight hours a day, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick. I think it was even David Beckham's father that made him constantly do penalties. Um, but also that ability to rest and think about what you're doing, go into a different zone, tune out the noise and just think about that. And, um, focus on that one thing that you've got an interest in.

Hannah Munro: Yeah. And I love that. And I think that Lean into sports psychology is really interesting. Hey, we might need to reach out to them, uh, and do a follow up podcast on your recommendations. So that's really interesting. So we talked about red and blue thinking. What else are key components of your change leadership, uh, program?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think the whole program we kind of thought about what we wanted the ideal BW person to be. And I think the overall from all the workshops throughout it all, it was all centered around trust. So if I trust you, you're going to do a lot better in your workplace. If you trust me, going to do a lot better. And that goes throughout our business, upstream, downstream, so through to uh, our supply chain. If we trust them and they trust us, we have a much more productive working relationship. We're going to hit our defect free quality promises together. And then upstream, if I trust my line manager and he trusts me, then we have a much better relationship, more open relationship. And so trust was the key pillar of the um, course. And then we started thinking about, well, what makes up that. I think one of the big things for us, we separated it into three originally, which was big ambitions, grounded confidence and integrity. And so big ambitions sounds very obvious, but it's about, uh, being bold, setting big directions, um, but not hiding behind these incremental changes that you tend to make. But also needs to come with grounded confidence. So you need to have a lot of confidence, but you also are grounded. So you're someone that has a lot of confidence but can also step back a little and be really calm under your scrutiny. And then obviously integrity is really important. Uh, doing the right thing when it's inconvenient to you isn't always easy. But something that I think is a really impressive trait. Um, something that really resonates with me. And then as we were going through the course, something really resonated with lots of people who are on the course, which was, uh, zero percent ego, um, separating your identity from outcomes. And I think putting that aside and if you have those four things, I think you can probably change the entire world. Nevertheless, a technology project and um, I think it's really impressive how that's proliferated around the business now. People come up to me all the time and are talking about big ambitions or grounded confidence. It's even made it into some of our pitches. Um, I think it's just, it's a really nice and such a, an honored, honoring thing to hear that coming back

Hannah Munro: into the business, that piece about zero ego. So tell us a little bit about how you, how do you approach that because you know, ego's not always obvious to an individual, is it? So how do you almost get them to understand what you mean and how to apply that in real life?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think it's really interesting when you ask people their interpretations of it. I think it's something that consistently develops and that's what we wanted the whole of BW Source to be, would, to be a, uh, constantly moving entity so that we're constantly keeping up to date with the latest trends and that we are constantly uh, making it relevant to our business. I think 0% ego, we had someone in mind when we were designing the whole course and that's why it's called BW Source, because I think I made an off the cuff comment. It's like, oh, if only we could bottle him. And that's kind of where it came from. It's like, oh yeah, he's definitely got the source. And then uh, it kind of grew legs in uh, creative meetings around um, what Source means to people in the construction industry. And we wanted to make it a little bit cheeky, a little bit down to uh, earth. And so I think the whole identity behind the leadership course isn't something that this, it's this high level educational institution that runs within bw. It's accessible to everyone. Everyone can understand it. If you come without an ego and you, you deliver, uh, and you have all these elements, then you will be successful and people will want to deal with you. And a lot of the people at BW deliver these amazing projects under very, very high pressure in very, very short time frames in the center of London, throughout all weathers, throughout all the year. Um, um, we ask a lot of them, but they still come and are very humble about to do, doing that. And I think that's where for ME the ego, 0% ego comes from, is the fact that we have amazing people in our business and yet you can still take them for a beer, you can still go and have a coffee with them and they'll talk to you like a normal human.

Hannah Munro: And you mentioned trust being critical and that's something we don't talk a lot about because it can be quite hard to measure sometimes, can't it, in terms of actually getting a rating. But how do you educate on trust? What are some of the things that you've done within the program to help build that culture of trust?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think that's why it's so important that the program takes place in person and it's not remote learning. I think being in a room, getting to know someone for them to be vulnerable to you I think is really important, and then for you to be vulnerable to them. Um, I have a trait of not really giving much of myself away at work. Um, I believe I come to work to do a job. And I historically have very shared very little about my personal life. But what I realized on the course and throughout my journey on the old leadership course is you give someone 1% of your personal life and they will deliver back 10%. And I think as soon as you cross that boundary of we are business people doing business together and you become a lot more human, personal, show your vulnerability, show your softer side. I think as soon as that happens, people immediately start to trust you. And I think probably before the course I probably would have gone along the lines of trust is something that you deliver by showing up to work, delivering very high quality work. But actually it's probably a lot more human than that, probably a lot more instinctive than that for people in terms of he obviously trusts me because he shared this with me. So I'm going to share this with him because I trust him.

Hannah Munro: And I guess how do you manage that balance of, uh, trust and performance? Because you know you're becoming vulnerable with people and sometimes you've got to have those difficult conversations as a leader, uh, how do you manage that balance between building great relationships and also having hard conversations?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think it's especially prevalent in technology where, uh, we hear a lot about surveillance and hours and hours logged, meeting hours, all these kind of things that are coming up. Especially there was an article recently on, um, Microsoft now sharing your location with your employer from your Microsoft Teams logs. And I think quite a lot of technology is built with a zero trust architecture and that kind of flows through everything. So I think approaching it from a more human side. What do people want? What makes people tick? Um, getting to know people, getting together in these workshops together. Um, I think there's a really beautiful moment in the course. One of the challenges is to go to a school and pitch to 16, 17 year olds to come into the construction industry. And I've actually been to three of these pitches now and it's been a different experience on each one of them. And all of, uh, our top people who go to pitches on a daily basis in front of some of the world's biggest companies come away and go, that was the hardest pitch that I ever did. It's a really funny reaction. Uh, uh, one of our guys, um, who just goes to pitches all the time, he's so slick at pitching. He came out and he's like, where's my cigarettes? I need my cigarettes immediately. Because these kids, they didn't want to get involved. They weren't interested in what we had to say until we came up with the salaries that you're available in construction. And then we had their attention grabbed for about half an hour. They asked us different questions about how much money you could earn and it just, it just changed the whole dynamic of the pitch. And what was really interesting now, he said, I'm now razor focused on crafting my pitch for those people that I, I'm pitching to. So he said, I'm thinking about who I'm going to pitch to or what are their drivers, who am I pitching to, what do they need from me in order to be interested in this pitch? So it's really interesting how the two things go together and how it makes you think in the future. And you think, what can a 16 and 17 year old person teach me? I've been in the industry for 20 years, what can they teach me? But the answer is a lot.

Hannah Munro: I love that. Now we've, um, we obviously we talked a lot about the programme. Is there anything else that you think in your BW source that's particularly relevant to change leadership, particularly around technology?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think, um, it was one of those moments where I was obviously stepping outside my day to day role and developing this leadership program with some amazing people who I felt, you know, were very, very much more educated in their whole sector than I am. And it was a, is a, it was a real moment for me when I was like, I need to go back to my safe zone. I need to have some kind of technology in this program. And so, um, I went back to my, my, my safe zone of developing an app and so we put this app together. What I wanted it to be was a digital guide throughout the program. So rather than having a folder underneath your desk full of paper that you probably won't look for or at for the next 20 years, we deliver it in an app. And so when you're going to create a calendar invite, it asks you, have you thought of an agenda for this? You could use the meeting model that we used in um, Module one. Wouldn't it be great to show people the meeting model and then that starts to proliferate through the business. So whilst it's a very technical piece of hardware, it's actually spreading the message about BW Source throughout the business, not just for that person that's doing it. They've also got all the course content on their phone as well, so that they can refer to that at any particular time. You know, people commute long distance for, to come into Central London for bw, so having that digital assistant is really important. They can ask questions about the um, leadership program in there. They can ask about their modules. They can also choose what they're going to have for dinner at the next retreat, which excites a lot of people,

Hannah Munro: the important stuff here.

Thomas Hollingsworth: But it's all in that one app and I think it's just very simple to use. Uh, works on all devices and I think it was a really important part of rolling out that and getting people on the journey.

Hannah Munro: You mentioned you just had a comment there about meetings. Is there an actual, Is there a module on how to hold effective meetings or what good meetings should look like? Did I hear that right?

Thomas Hollingsworth: There's not an actual module on there, but it's kind of peppered in throughout it all. Um, and there's a particular surprise, I won't ruin it for those people who are listening that are going to go on the BW source, but on module one we have a, uh, very special guest at the end of the day. And they've um, been doing etiquette coaching for some of the poshest people in the world, Royals, amazing people. And they teach you how to shake hands, how to go into a room and network. It's a very daunting thing, isn't it? If you're just coming into the industry and you're presented with a room of 400 people and you have to go and meet them and entertain them. So making that a bit fun, real life scenarios. So we put up pictures of our uh, um, corporate party and then they can choose how they would approach it. And then she gives advice on it, how to shake hands. Um, and uh, apparently three pumps is the optimum for shaking hands. And uh, the two bits between your thumbs, whatever you call those, they're also very important for shaking hands. Um, so yes, it's a real bit, it's a bit of fun, but also some really practical lessons about how to conduct yourself, how to be more confident when you approach people in public. Um, and also that applies to meetings as well. Don't go into a meeting thinking you have to be polite and stay till the end of that meeting because actually you're wasting your time. And that's not polite for the person that's hosting the meeting. It's all these little preconceptions that you have around politeness that might not be true.

Hannah Munro: And this program sounds amazing, but my Question for you is how has it impacted how you deliver technology? Because obviously you're in charge of leading that within your organization. What does that mean for change within bw?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think my role and um, BW Source have become so intertwined now. It's uh, a real moment for me when people are coming to me with ideas for the business that are not just technology, but also it gives you that gravitas of you're running this program. You've helped me, so I'm going to help you roll your technology. I think it's been one of those moments of before I'd rock up with some new idea with a new scanner or something like that. And they kind of think about it as Tom is forcing me to do something. Whereas now they kind of understand the journey that I've been on. They understand how I want the direction of the business. Um, I had the privilege of um, presenting BW Source last year at our company conference, which um, was our biggest one ever. Um, and I got on stage in front of everyone within the company and delivered a presentation. And I think that kind of to them shows that uh, I'm pushing myself outside of my own comfort zone. Um, they've seen my um, growth within BW and they think that they want to be part of that as well. So I think all these things are very interlinked. The impact of you within your company is about how you present yourself and you take the lessons that you learned on leadership programs from before, what you learn on BW Source, and then also the impact that technology is making within our organization. You put all those things together, it becomes very powerful.

Hannah Munro: Absolutely. And it sounds like a very human centered change as well as being technology driven. Right. Because that's. As technology leaders it's easy to fall back on the technology. But actually like you said earlier, the majority of it comes from people.

Thomas Hollingsworth: Yeah, definitely. I mean we need people to run this technology to interpret the data, to verify that data. Um, um, I think for the last two years I've been talking about how these comments about AI replacing huge swathes of our industry aren't true because we, we have a uh, labor shortage as it is. We need more people, but we also need them to be a lot more efficient and we also need them to verify the data that we are presenting and also add another level of scrutiny to that data. So actually our biggest critics within BW about technology and AI are probably our most valuable people in terms of questioning what we're doing, making us do it better, making us deliver things that are more useful to the business, uh, and proving their worth. So actually, uh, a skeptic to me is much more valuable than someone who is completely on board.

Hannah Munro: And I love that because that's always something that I think people are often scared of in a change project. Is the skeptic tell us about how you approach that dynamic in how, how you use them to your advantage in a change project?

Thomas Hollingsworth: Definitely. I mean I'm, I'm very lucky in terms of, uh, bw, all our sites are located very central to, to London. I can walk to all of them, uh, I can go and say hello to people, come and have a laugh with them, show them what we've got, show them the outcomes, um, and people are very interested to help you. And so I think actually it becomes a nice thing to go and socialize with people and show them this technology and show them how it's going to benefit them rather than, oh, gosh, I'm going to have to invest in this new system which isn't going to be exactly the thing that they want. So I think everything that we do is centered around people and humans rather than thinking about the technology. So how can I always think about it? How can I make Paul's day faster? Um, especially in technology, there's a lot of people who enjoy forms and form filling and I'm very, very against form filling and digital forms and things like that. I want to know what people really think. I want to know how people really work. So spending a lot of time with people. I've had some amazing mentors throughout the year, uh, the years at bw, teaching me about how to build so that then I can know about what technology will help them to build. And I think it's just been a really successful partnership that I've developed with people. Um, and I think it's all about personality. As we talk about a lot at bw, if you rock up, very interested in what they're doing, how you can make it better, they'll eventually come back and you can win them over, you know.

Hannah Munro: When you look back over your years working with technology, what's been your biggest challenge?

Thomas Hollingsworth: Very good question. I think my biggest challenge, especially from my perspective, is I'm so interested in every part of the business, but you've got to split it up into priorities. And so there's, there's some amazing tools that we have at the moment that don't necessarily have the impact right now that we need them to have, but there's, I think robotics is the perfect example of this in terms of impact and interest, there is a lot of, a lot of motion behind robotics. However, the actual impact that you can have on site right now isn't as much as completely overhauling the uh, health and safety data and using some predictive analysis on that that we can get instant benefits from on people's health well being and safety on site. So it's prioritizing what you're going to do. I think that's probably the hardest thing. And then also sticking to a budget,

Hannah Munro: always a challenge. And uh, remember you're talking to a load of CFOs, right? So everyone listening here is you've got to stick to the budget.

Thomas Hollingsworth: Well, I'm actually going to have a confession here that I think uh, in lots and lots of companies the CFO is the person that's in charge of technology and the technology budget. And I always say that that's probably the wrong person to have that interest in that because often it's down to bean counting. And ROI in technology is something that's very, very hard to predict. Um, I think every vendor is razor focused on how many man hours did this save, how many um, spreadsheets did you not have to look at. So therefore you can save hours in processing all those kind of metrics. But proving ROI on AI is very, very hard at this moment because you're investing in something that we are at the very, very infancy, infancy of, even though we've been doing it for a long time, you know, with Alan Turing, with his, his AI, um, we're still at the new generation of AI and the infancy of that. So you, it's, it's very hard to take a view of I'm investing in this, but in 20 years time it's going to benefit me because obviously a CFO is probably looking three or five years in advance, um, to get those benefits. So I think budget will always be a challenge. Um, but we proven time and time again that actually the outwardly facing technology company that happens to build offices that I like to pump out is actually uh, one of our most powerful marketing campaigns. So in terms of roi, we're winning business because we're getting some of the world's biggest technology companies coming and asking for us to build their headquarters. So I think there's so many parts of ROI that it becomes even more complicated. Um, but that's becoming a really big part of my job is that outwardly facing, we um, are on board with technology, we understand technology and we're leaders in the industry.

Hannah Munro: And there's a really interesting piece that I think it's worth pulling out that you talked about there, which is about, rather than going for the, for the, I guess, the buzzwords of technology, the really exciting things like robotics, actually making sure that you're doing maybe the not so exciting, not so shiny to work with, not so shiny toys. How do you manage that conversation with your stakeholders? Because they're probably asking, well, why aren't we doing this and why aren't we playing with robots versus, uh, health and safety data? It doesn't quite sound the same in the boardroom. So how do you manage your stakeholder expectations and get them on board with.

Thomas Hollingsworth: Yeah, when you get the robotic dog out, you have everyone in the, in the nearest half a mile coming and talking to you. When you show them a new tool that takes unstructured data and puts into structured data, you don't get so many fanboys coming towards you then. So, yes, it is, it is a really hard balance. And, um, I think, uh, for a long time now, I've had conversations in BW about, I would like you to use this tool so I can get the data from the back end. And until you give me that data, I can't show you the benefits of it. But you just need to trust me that I. We're back to that word, trust. Trust me that there is a benefit to it that's coming. And so I think we are, uh, developing applications and onboarding new suppliers at a huge pace, faster than any application that, you know in the last five years. We've probably done more applications in the last six months and in the last five years. And so it's a really interesting thing that you can now make these proof of concepts a lot quicker. So taking the unstructured data from all our, uh, last two years of estimates and extracting that data out so that you can accurately predict the price of a piece of drywall historically and into the future is something that really benefits them. You know, when you think about, I want to do a cost plan for my new headquarters, we can do it in minutes rather than what would have taken someone five days before. That's really impressive. But you can't simulate that before you've done the groundwork.

Hannah Munro: I think it's relevant because very often you have to invest in the not so exciting technology to get the basics right before you jump into the really exciting, flashy pieces. So. And a lot of CFOs will probably be sitting here going, yeah, I'm having that same problem. You know, they're asking for you know, predictive analytics and I can't even pull out, you know, the numbers within, within a few hours. So you know, how, how do you manage to convince people that that is the right piece, that right way to go without maybe having that opportunity for proof of concept? And you know, have you got any tips and tricks for our listeners?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think the, the world we live in now with SaaS products is a lot easier to, to make that connection. So that you can take a, ah, product that probably would have only been suitable for a large organization, um, and you can test that within a matter of hours or days and you can put some sample data in there and mock up some situations where you pump an end result out very, very quickly. Um, you don't have to build a server array, you don't have to invest in a data center, you don't have to do all these things that were probably really prohibitive to a small, medium enterprise before they've done all that work for you. You just log in with an account. The world is so connected now. So you probably log in with the same Google or Microsoft account that you have before. You can probably connect some data up that you've had before as well and then you can make that proof of concept very quickly. Um, there's some amazing technology companies that we deal with, um, procore, Ignite and just the tools that they're releasing now enable you to show people what's out there. Um, you know, procoreassist is just such a simple tool, but it's based on the data that someone's already put in. You don't have to do anything different. You can just click on a button and ask a question about your program and it will tell you the answer. And that for me is a really impactful change that when you're going to a skeptic, have a go at yourself, see what you think of it, tell me what you think rather than I'm going to tell you what I think is really cool. I think that was always a trigger word for me when someone in technology goes, oh, this is really cool. I'm like, but does it do anything for people? Does it mean anything? Um, and I think that's something that we've been going through with our, uh, data lakehouse and dashboards. Um, I think I'm quite cantankerous. When we're sitting in these meetings and we've got all these graphs up on the screen. I'm like, well, what does it mean if I'm a client sitting here? What do these graphs mean to me, or are we just making graphs because we have that data sitting somewhere? I think that connection between what makes a difference and, um, what's cool is the place that we really need to be thinking about now.

Hannah Munro: And it always genuinely amazes me when we go into demos when they've got like maybe one or two people on and they've got a team of 20, that, that sort of engagement in the process. I think it's something that a lot of people forget is that actually getting the team involved at that early stage and feeding into the solution, not only does it obviously hopefully get you lots of great insight into is it going to work, but it actually starts the change journey for me. It starts pre demo is actually getting people involved in that discovery and those conversations. What's, what's your view?

Thomas Hollingsworth: Yeah, definitely. Bringing people on the journey is the ultimate goal. It's also great for me because if, if something goes wrong, I can go, well, guys, you chose it with me. I wasn't just the only one in the room. Um, but I think responsibility in this

Hannah Munro: BW course, shared responsibility.

Thomas Hollingsworth: Um, absolutely. And so there's, there's that, there's that, there's that fact. But also if they're invested in that product, if they feel that they've had an invested input in that product, they're going to believe in it a lot more. They can see the benefits, they can then share that benefits, uh, the benefits with others and they can take the skeptics and make them on your side. And often if someone's in your department, if you're in the finance department and the head of finance says something and you're kind of like, well, he doesn't care about what I do on a daily basis. But if the person who's also on your level says, actually, no, this has saved me a lot of time. That is just such a powerful message. And, oh, if they're on it, I need to also be on it. And I think there's a huge amount of that fomo. If someone else is doing something cool, if another department's doing something cool, um, that you also need to be doing it. I think that's a real driver within the business. Your department wants to be seen as the best. That, uh, internal competition to be the best and not be left behind is something really powerful.

Hannah Munro: Absolutely. So, um, I'm really genuinely gutted towards. We're coming to the end of our conversation, but I'd love to maybe finish with your top tips of how to lead change within your organization. So for all of our CFOs that are listening, what advice would you give them, um, before they start their next change or technology project?

Thomas Hollingsworth: I think it's so important that you think of why you're doing it. A lot of the times it's based upon our five year contracts coming to a renewal. We need to look at something different. But why not just take a look at your business and go, what can we do differently today? What other products are there? What's exciting in our industry? Ask your clients what they want. I think that's something that we often forget. I'm a huge fan of asking for feedback, asking for input from upstream, downstream, from everywhere. I want to know what people think all the time. So for me, always have the end goal in what's your outcomes, what do you want them to be in mind? And once you start thinking about that, then you can work backwards and then get the technology that fits that, or you can go and make it yourself. We live in a world now where we can develop applications very easily, a lot faster than before. We can fail fast. So if something doesn't work, it's not that massive investment that we've always made. And I think once you start the innovation process, you put these criteria and you create something really exciting like the BW source. You create an area where people can give their feedback, they can feel, they can have input. You create these groups of people. We have our AI group and the ideas that they come up with have actually blown me away. You know how invested people are. Uh, they'll spend a huge amount of their own time going out and looking at how they can better their AI knowledge. They've been on courses, they've been to shows that they never would have been from before. So bringing people on these exciting journeys with you is a huge part of it and it will set the culture of your company up to be an innovative company. And I think once you start that flow, you'll probably have the same problem with us, which is like, how do I control that? How can I slow that down? Um, but I think that's a really nice problem to have, is that everyone in your business is going to, what can I do better? How can I make things safer? How can I be more interested in our customers? As soon as people start thinking like that, then we've got a really good recipe for success.

Hannah Munro: And I think that's a brilliant M piece to work on. How can we take people on that journey and get them leading the change rather than us? Uh, so thank you so much, Thomas. This has been a, uh, fantastic chat. If people want to learn more about you or about bw, where can they find you?

Thomas Hollingsworth: So we, uh, are, we are. BW.com is our website address. If you click on there, you'll also see the BW Source page where you can go and watch our, uh, BW Source video, which was, uh, made by me and an excellent filmmaker, Jonathan from Other Finger Films, with an actor from House of Dragons and Peaky Blinders. Um, something completely out there. And you can also go and take the um, Terry Source test as well, so you can upload your CV and he will tell you if you have the BW source. So there's lots of fun things you can do on the website. Um, and you can obviously follow me and uh, uh, BW on LinkedIn and social media as well. We love making friends, so please come and join us.

Hannah Munro: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Thomas. And of course, if you've enjoyed, um, this episode and, or you want links to any of the things that Thomas has just mentioned, we will pop the links in the show notes. So thank you very much to Thomas for, for joining me today and thank you to our listeners for listening. Don't forget, leave a review, send me a message on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear your thoughts. And yeah, we'll see you next time on the CFO 4.0 podcast.

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