279. How AI, Demographics and Change Are Reshaping Finance Careers with Clive Webb

Speaker A: Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of Finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, managing director of itas, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and Data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, uh, the future of finance.

Speaker B: So, hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I am your host, Hannah Maroe, and to be honest, everyone should recognize this voice before I even introduce the. So if you don't recognize the name Clay of Webb, well, quite frankly, how long have you been listening to the podcast and where have you been? But Clive, for those of you that don't know, is head of Business Management at the ACCA and regularly comes on the podcast to talk through the interesting research that the ACCA are putting together. So welcome Clive. Fantastic to have you back on the show.

Speaker C: Nice to be here, Hannah. Thank you for the invite again.

Speaker B: Well, I feel like at this point, Clive, you might as well host yourself, to be honest.

Speaker C: Oh, no, definitely.

Speaker B: So, uh, today we're going to talk about, I guess, you know, what do careers look like? Because there's a lot of changes happening, I guess, in the world. Um, and the title of the report, I think is Career Paths Reimagined. So just give us some context, Clive, to this report. Where does it come from? And what was the driver for this one?

Speaker D: Coming through.

Speaker C: Okay. Um, so I think the driver, uh, basically was essentially twofold. We know that the whole role of the accountant is being redefined. And I think, Hannah, we've talked about elements of that before, you and I on, um, this podcast. And that sense of, well, what an accountant is doing, adding value to society, etcetera, Dramatically changing. How do we understand that in terms of the careers that people will have, not today, but thinking sort of five, ten years out, and how do we start preparing people to make that journey so they remain relevant towards the future? And, um, it might be a scary journey. It might not be a scary journey, but it's better to start the journey today than it is. So five years time when the world has passed us by. And what. That's really what we wanted to do. And some of you may be aware ACCA has refreshed the qualification as well to make it relevant towards some of these themes. So it combines with that in how do we get people ready for the future? And what are the skills people are going to need?

Speaker B: So why is this particularly pertinent now? And what's actually driving change in perhaps career paths? And, um, what people think about in terms of their journeys?

Speaker C: Why is it pertinent now? Because, as I say in the sort of opening the report, there are two views here. We're either the point of evolution or the point of revolution, or we're perhaps stuck somewhere in the middle of the two. But that sense of the world around us is changing far more rapidly than perhaps we living that change think is probably right. So it's more towards that revolution point. And what we did in the report was Identify 8 Key Drives of change that we think are really creating that change in the careers, in the profession. And yeah, they range from, well, what exactly is the role of a profession yet alone our profession in society? How's that being changed in this changing world? What do we expect from work? What does society expect from work? How does climate change and the world in which we live, where we work, when we work, how we work, um, impact the future of careers? Technology we can't ignore. And it's not just about AI, it's about a broader landscape of technologies impacting how we all interact with each other. Um, demography. We are generally an aging population across this world, rather dramatically in some cases, slightly less in others, but we're living longer as well. So there are impacts there. Um, the expectation on accountants and on professions generally is changing, the regulatory regimes change. And finally, we can't ignore the fact that geopolitics don't look now like they did five years ago. Um, and certainly the economic trends are fairly low growth, unstable, etc. Into the future. So add that lot together, you start thinking about, well, how do I start being relevant for the future? What skills do I need? How's the world of work going to change? How do I need to be prepared? And that's really where that comes from.

Speaker B: And certainly a feeling I've got is that all of this, you know, you talked about geopolitics, societal changes, technology, it feels like everything's moving faster and that it's actually happening at a faster rate of pace than I can remember in my sort of career history. Is that something that your research has pulled out, is the. Almost the speed of change?

Speaker C: I think you're absolutely right that speed of change is what's accelerating and to some extent, I think will continue to accelerate. M. Um, there is a feeling in whatever literature you read, whatever Lens, you look at the report that we're still at this cusp of yet more change and we've got to get used to navigating that change rather than thinking we're plateauing. We're absolutely not plateauing. Um, but it's not just the SOYU technology. Um, it's a story of changes in demography, it's a story of changes in the climate. It's a story of what you and I want to get out of work. What motivates us to come in first thing in the morning, you know, why are we here? Are we being rewarded enough? What is the satisfaction that we get emotionally from work? So you add all those things together and you're right, that sense of change is dramatic, but it's accelerating too.

Speaker B: And obviously we'll get onto technology piece because that is a driver. But it's. And as you said, but it's not m the only driver. And I think we spend a lot of time talking about technology rather than maybe some of the other things that sit on, um, those drives to change. So tell us a little bit about how demography, the demography of the population is actually changing. And what does that mean specifically in the uk for how we think about careers?

Speaker C: Well, there are two aspects of demography that there's almost the beginning and the end piece of this. Um, as a society in the UK in particular, though, we are not at the bottom, but we are towards the bottom. We are not having enough children in society. Um, the birth rate is declining and continues to decline. So what does that mean? It means, effectively, although you get some peak years, the number of people entering the workforce is decreasing. The advances in medicine, um, a shift more towards preventative rather than reactive, um, care, uh, means we're living longer. So you've got more people in the workforce proportionately above what classically would have been the retirement age. And you've got less people entering the workforce. And if you look holistically economically, that probably means that everybody needs to work a bit longer and probably needs to work a bit longer. So that's the balance of this demography debate. And the UK is right in the center of that of, uh, actually, we've got to cope with an aging population that we sort of society can't quite afford. Um, yeah, we're paying pensions for upwards of 20, 25 years yet when in history, if you go back to the state pension, when it's introduced, 1908, I think it was. And my daughter and I saw this in a sign at the Imperial War Museum, over the Christmas break, you paid it out for about four years on average.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: We're now paying it out for 25, 30 years on average. Yes, we're extending that out. Um, and we're pushing retirement ages out. And if you take again, my daughter, My daughter's around, um, 16. The anticipated date she can retire is probably. Will get a state pension. Let me rephrase. That is probably about 78. Wow. But, uh, if you look at the survey data that sits behind this report in the UK, about 47%, so nearly 60%, nearly 50, half of our respondents said, oh, I'm going to retire between 60 and 69. And that was even those that were in their 20s and 30s now. So we're not getting that message that economically we have a challenge. The good news, and there is some good news here. Um, if you take an IMF study, somebody that is 70 today has the cognitive ability of somebody that was 53 in the year 2000.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: That's an interesting sense.

Speaker C: So mentally we can work longer. And mentally we probably do want to work longer. But somewhere along the line we need to think about how we create a career that is more paced. MHM is more adapted to that longer life expectancy and that need to work longer. So you get concepts like micro retirements. Taking a career break is not negative, it's a positive. How do you pace yourself longer? How do you keep that cognitive ability growing? And I think as we get more into the human machine bit, you need that cognitive ability more, so you need to stay fresher longer. So that's how it affects careers. It comes back to, how do I pace my career? How do I think about my career? One, um, last salutary fact, just to add to this, if you look at the economics of this, anybody entering the workforce today needs to start saving for a pension basically now. And in fact, some financial institutions in the UK will sell you a pension if you are 12 years old.

Speaker B: Wow, that is new. Uh, at least I think it's new. It's not something that I considered at 12. I can definitely.

Speaker C: No, definitely not. But if you think about how long you need to, you may live in retirement. M. It's about pacing a different life and it's about pacing a different career. And you talked a minute ago about the pace of change. Well, that pace of change is going to accelerate. So what my daughter will say is very different from the career speed change that you and I have seen. Hannah.

Speaker B: And you mentioned that interesting piece around, um, you know, the cognitive capability of a, um, I Think you said a 70, a 70 something year old is what was a 53 year old, correct?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: What's driving that? Is it is that we're with, we're thinking more, we're thinking less, our health matters differently or.

Speaker C: Yeah, so some of it is to do with health and, and the fact that we are, we are more aware of health problems, we manage them better. I said a moment ago about m swishing increasingly towards preventative from reactive health. Um, and the longer that happens, the longer we can maintain a lifestyle, we're more conscious of being fitter, we're more conscious of how to maintain our psychological balance better. So all of those add up to why that cognitive ability has changed. But what it does mean is the motivation to work is a lot longer and the economic need to work is a lot longer and the population is different to that that we were traditionally used to. So we have got to keep people what we can't afford to do. And um, picture we drew in the report, that doesn't mean that everybody will be a senior manager all their careers. It means that ah, you may need to step back and think about well actually what is it I can add, otherwise we just get people log jamming and that's also another risk.

Speaker B: So we'll get into what this means, but let's just roll back round into societal expectations. So what's driving some of the changes there? How is that impacting how we view careers?

Speaker C: Okay, so the societal and personal are quite interconnected. So uh, I'll um, talk about the two together. In society, as I said, what motivates you? May anybody listening to this come to work? Um, we traditionally think of two things. We think of pay reward and we increasingly think about work life balance. Okay. In society terms pay is defined by historically as you know, I produce something, my company sells that for an amount of money and I get a proportion of that as my salary. M. Okay, simple production services. You can use same analogy. As we go forwards increasing the level of automation in the workplace, it's not the human that is generating that value add, it is the machine. So what point does the human start to get the financial reward for the effort of the machine? As m that workforce dynamics starts to change. And does that machine mean that as a human I will not need to work five days a week, I will work four days a week going forwards and there's an academic debate about, you know, in three, four, five, ten years time will we move from essentially five days a week to four days a week, et cetera. There is a trend. Our survey results tend to suggest people haven't thought that one through yet, but there is different trend. The other question I got asked when I was talking about this report to a group of university students, um, a couple of weeks ago was, well, what does that mean about, um, guaranteed minimum wages in society? You know the concept that, you know, no matter what you do there is a minimum wage which is more than the living wage. It's not that concept. It's a, uh, minimum guaranteed income that society gives you because that's what your share of the benefit of society overall means. And the Swiss talked about this a few years ago and the Swedish Swede's talked about it and is that the future? So this question about what motivates us to work, is it all about work life, balance, is it all about purpose, is it all about reward, et cetera? You start to get some fundamental shifts yet, we know. And if you look at any of the data, uh, pain rewards still is significant, but particularly for those entering the workplace who economically can't afford, you know, houses, et cetera, something somewhere has to change. Um, so there are various things about why we work that change quite dramatically and that balance between how much I work and when I don't work and what I do with the time when I don't work, per se.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, and um, what, I guess what's interesting is that if we just say we did move to that model of a universal income, then we're in the conversation about what's like you say, what's the motivation to work if it's not paying reward? Why do you go to work in the first place if you have enough to cover what you know what, what you need? And is there any research around that and how that that's viewed?

Speaker C: Um, not dramatically. It tends to be the sort of backstop concept. I suppose that that guaranteed universal income, um, is an economic concept, but nobody's actually got to the point of really evaluating what it would mean. What I think is sort of clear is that as we increasingly use more technology, I know we said we've part technology, we can't ignore it in any of the conversation.

Speaker B: This is where we're going next is

Speaker C: where we're going next. Yeah. As we increasingly use that technology, as this human machine balance, interface, whatever you want to call it, starts to develop more, it probably means that we do release more time to do other things. But those other things may be more of society benefit than simply being what you and I traditionally called leisure time. So, yeah, as a Society, we develop more, let's say, um, caring roles that are, um, funded by various means, or we spend more time outside doing things for other people and society rather than simply the balance we have at the moment. There's a concept called work life blend, as opposed to work life balance, which is the engagement of this sort of constant work, constant balance with life outside work. And that being a constant change rather than the defined thing of this is work now and that's leisure, that's life outside. So that more constancy, but more flexibility as well, growing.

Speaker B: And then. So let's go to the, you know, the elephant in the room. Talk about technology. Right? You know, we, we've, we've waited for, to, for us to get there, but so obviously the, the buzzword at the moment is AI. When we say, like technology is impacted, do we just mean AI or are there other things that are impacting, you know, that are impacting careers that aren't AI specific?

Speaker C: Um, I think the answer is it's all interconnected. Um, but it is not just about what you're, what you, I and anybody listening might think is AI as such. Um, we could debate for a separate podcast and write what is AI? And we'd still be talking about that for an hour or more.

Speaker D: Um,

Speaker C: what are the big trends in technology? What is a change fabric of society? One strand is about this medical care, the evolution of the human in that sense, and moving us increasing onto more preventative care. And therefore it's sending life and treating us more. That technological revolution we're at the start of, we're not the end of. And that will change the dynamics of how we live quite dramatically. You've got computing power, which will continue to grow. So our ability to model what we do, our, um, ability to use technology more continues to grow. But also the connectivity of that technology into the workplace, into the home, et cetera, continues to grow. And then you've got AI and then you've got artificial general intelligence as streams that will roll forward. What does it mean? And what have I very carefully said in the report? It's not a question of the human being replaced by the machine. It's a question of the human and the machine working together in a way where the human understands what it is to add value to the things that the machine cannot do. Uh, and if you look at any aspect of AI or technology, it is still a question of the human adding value, the analysis, the interpretation, those kind of things. Uh, so how do we have the skill set in our careers to add value to the machine rather than worry about being replaced by the machine. That doesn't mean that some roles will evolve and we've already seen impacts on AP AR R to R roles, etc. We all know about that. But what we need to understand is how we reframe those roles to be working with the machine rather than being replaced by the machine. Because there are always going to be data issues, there are always going to be supervisory roles, always going to be analytical roles that sit around the machine. So it's about understanding that balance. Um, the other thing I think we will increasingly see and are seeing is integrated data flows between organizations as well as within organizations. So.

Speaker B: So connectivity invoicing.

Speaker C: Exactly, yeah. E. Invoicing, increasing data flows across supply chains. Not just the invoicing transaction but also through the whole supply chain itself.

Speaker B: So let's just talk about that machine human balance. Because from my perspective I think there is an interesting paradox coming to us in that we're saying that the value of the humans is the experience, experience that they, they have to give to that machine to educate, support and validate what's being put out. Yet when we, when you hear people talk about the power of technology, that the talk is about replacing those entry level roles where a skill set isn't necessarily needed. So how do we find the balance as a society, I guess about bringing up the next generation of um, experienced individuals whilst we have machines that are purported to be able to deliver on that role potentially without all of the level of training and support and mentoring and everything that's required. What does that mean I guess for how we think about careers?

Speaker C: Um, so to answer that let's take a step back a little bit and talk about organisations and way we think about organisations and roles in organisations. Um, we're very used to that classic construct of the pyramid. Broad number of roles at the bottom. As you go up the pyramid it shrinks. Um, that's probably the was construct.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: We're going through a change. One we've seen what they call the hourglass which is where we've had the squeezed middle. So we removed a lot of the middle managerial roles. Yeah, we're almost now getting towards the converse of that where you get this sort of what they term the diamonds shape structure. What does the diamond shape structure mean? It means that uh, in that balance of the human adding value to the machine there are more roles that are to do with analytics, insight and deep specialism. And I will put in a number of accounting roles like treasury, um, corporate finance, sustainability, Anything that is a deep specialist skill that requires analysis, interpretation. There are lots of those roles in the middle of an organization and um, fewer roles at uh, the entry point because that's where the technology as we've said, will rightly kick in. And probably fewer roles actually at the top. Because if you think about trends like agentic AI build in agent doesn't look in the same way that you and I look at organizational structures and silos and the finance department and the procurement department and whatever it may be, the agent just spans. So leadership needs to span and it be less defined. What it does mean is we need to get people in their careers earlier into those analytical skills and that experience and find ways of bringing people in where we can grow them into those specialist roles. M But those specialist roles need good interpersonal skills, they need good communication skills, they need good strategic skills. Um, and one thing I comment on the report. If we don't think about the education system going backwards and saying, well, what comes out of tertiary, what comes out of Secretary education, then we're not having the right conversation. And as I point out in the report in the UK there is some work going on now about redefining what accountancy degrees look like to give a better balance of that, which is all to the good. But we've got to think differently about what we mean by an entry level role, uh, and how we give people that springboard of experience in the interpersonal analytical, uh, skills that we haven't necessarily thought we needed to traditionally. So it links very much to that diamond based structure. Does that make sense, Hannah?

Speaker B: It does. And I think there's an interesting piece, isn't there, in that we've got less people coming up through the ranks anyway because we talked about the balance in the older years versus the younger years. Right. So for me, uh, that hourglass in some ways makes more sense because you've got less people too to come in at that bottom level. So that's, that's the value machine. It allows society to make choices about the uh, you know, what we do with the, the birth rate, et cetera. Um, but I also think it's interesting, and I say this from, as a perspective is that, is that very often people come out with academic qualifications into the workplace but not having a commercial awareness. And I think that's a challenge, uh, for most entry level roles that understanding of how the world works versus the theory of how the world works is very different. And I think that's an interesting challenge. And um, how do we address that either with qualifications, with types of training. How do we bring those people up without necessary. Because they're not going to get the experience, exposure, uh, that the rest of us had to working our way up in different jobs and different people and you know, they're not necessarily going to have that. So that for me is fast that, that I find interesting. I guess it means we need to be better at training and developing people rather than less because we've got to get them there faster.

Speaker C: Yes, and I think that's right. So a couple of things I would add to that are apart from 100% agreeing what you said in the report. I talk about a balance of knowledge, skills and attitude. And we're very good at teaching the knowledge. We don't try to teach skills, we don't try to teach attitude. There was, I referred to it in the report. But there's also some work LinkedIn have done recently, um, in the UK specifically looking at expectations of those entering the workforce in terms of promotion. You know, they want a promotion or anticipate a promotion quicker. Uh, two reasons for that I think. One, because promotion is also about economic well being and we know that's part of a problem, the entry level roles as well. Um, but secondly it's also about accelerate, recognizing acceleration of their own abilities quicker. So we have got to think what that ah, means as we reshape what the workforce means. But it's how do I give those skills quicker, how do I develop the learning programs, uh, quicker in organizations to springboard people. But by the way, you're actually so pushing an open door because that's what people want.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, so it's about balances too. The other point I make, and it goes very much to the whole learning piece, careers are now what you call hyper personalized. They're flexible, they're squiggly. You can use any of these terms. Um, what does that mean? It means that there aren't standard pathways anymore, that that development cycle, that the way you develop is about my career and my career will look different to your career. So we can't have the one size fits all learning programs we used to have. It's about how do I create that just in time learning to progress somebody in the right way. And how do I as an individual take responsibility for that rather than expecting my employer to necessarily have a one size fits all program which is going to work for me no matter how big or small that employer is. And I think that's the other side of the learning piece of uh, the hyper personalized career pushes more responsibility onto me as individual to make sure I've got those skills, um, and prove I can demonstrate those skills. And when the employer looks the CV is moving from that chronology into. Yeah, how Hannah, can I demonstrate that I have the experience that shows ah, I have curiosity and how do I show I've got the ability to be analytical. And by the way, what tools can I use to be analytical? So it's moving away from oh, I spent five years in uh. And um, a lot of people ask about employment and attraction and that's part of that debate as well I think.

Speaker B: So we talked about hyper personalization and that's sort of an outcome of this changing environment. What are some of the other outcomes that you're anticipating seeing?

Speaker C: So careers are no longer linear there isn't that standard progression? It's all very flexible. It is about your own career choices and where you want to go. What is going to make you successful in that flexible world. It's a core set of robust interpersonal skills, um, collaboration, empathy, storytelling, uh, strategic skills. So ah, business acumen. You refer to that a moment ago, Hannah. Resilience. But above all the word is curiosity. And in this human machine world, creating trust in untrusted world where the machine may not necessarily give you the right answer. And we can talk about biases as well and ethics of AI and all of that, having curiosity to know, to be able to sit back and say is this the right answer? Am I able to give the right advice? Is what defines a human against the machine? The worrying thing was in the survey that sits behind the report, we gave a whole list of skills, which ones would you grow, etc. Classic question. In the UK, 70% of people said AI and technology. Unsurprising. 42% said analytics, 9% said curiosity.

Speaker B: Wow, that's uh, fascinating. So I think curiosity is, is, is like the why.

Speaker C: Yeah. So they either think they've got it or they don't understand that it's a skill that defines them or the importance of it.

Speaker B: Like. And I think uh. But as uh, somebody right. That goes into a lot of organizations, it is fascinating that my job sometimes as a consultant is just to ask the silly question that kind of like why do we do it that way? And you know, and you can guarantee that one in three, if not more will say because we've always done it that way. So I do think lack of curiosity and a focus on I just need to get stuff done, um, is part, is almost part of how we're. What's the word as part of the culture that I guess sometimes we can be brought into. Um, and I think that's, that's almost a challenge, isn't it? Is that curiosity is as much a scale skill as it is a, um, an attribute or a characteristic.

Speaker C: Absolutely right. And yes, there are techniques like critical thinking you can use behind it as a technique, but that innate culture of curiosity, that skill set of being resilient enough to ask that question. Um, my days are training consultants. The technique of five whys. You know, you keep asking why until you get to the, the cause. If we're not embedding that, as you said, if we are not changing and recognizing the world around us has changed, then what career have we got going forwards? It's going to be those that adapt and see the need to adapt, that are going to thrive. And if you sit back and say it won't happen to me, unfortunately it may won't happen to you

Speaker D: and I,

Speaker B: I'll be interested to know because what, what I very often see until you get to that senior level, and very often it's only once you actually get into that senior level that people understand the value of the softer skills of, you know, how people can manage, change, all those kind of things. What was the, what was the view, I guess on um, the balance between technical AI technology, analytical skills versus not just curiosity, but the whole range of softer skills. Communication, you know, um, change management, all those kind of emotional awareness. How, how, I guess how aware are we about the importance of those as we go into this AI era?

Speaker C: Um, I think the answer is we're aware, but we don't know why we should be as aware as we need to be. Um, you're right, it's easy to have a conversation, say we've all got to improve our software skills, the technical skills, and I put in a bucket of technical skills. Three things. Your core counting skills and your core business skills. So that's one group. Your data skills. So how do I organize, manage, work with data and um, your technology skills. And I don't mean we're all going to be data scientists, I don't mean we're all going to be IT pressures. What I mean is I need to be consciously competent with both of those. I need to know how to get the best advantage of the machine. That is another fundamental block of skills I need if I'm to be truly flexible in my career. Because the difference between the human, the machine is the human knows how to use the machine. The human takes advantage of the technology and they have the ability to analyze, interpret, and communicate those answers, whereas the machine can present the results, but can't necessarily argue the point, if you like. Now, when you get to artificial general intelligence, you may be gained somewhere down the line. I appreciate that. But for the moment, think about what differentiates us from the machine and build those skill sets.

Speaker B: Yeah, you say that, but what was quite interesting is I think GPT has put in, um, a way of talking to people that encourages them to use it more. So a way of positively spinning and complimenting as it gives answers to try and have some of that. It's, you know, the first wave of emotional intelligence, which is, for me is fascinating, um, in terms of how that works.

Speaker C: But at the end of the day, any piece of AI is still a predictive model.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: It's using a form of statistics to say, this is what Hannah, I think you want me to tell you.

Speaker B: M. Yeah.

Speaker C: And what we are wherever we look, the ability to stand back and be that true trusted advisor. And you and I have used, referred to Meister in these podcasts before, um, is absolutely fundamental. And as a professional, what in society is the role of a profession? And this is one of the questions we ask. And we talked across a number of professions. We consulted with other professions as well in answering this. We used to be the owners of a rule book. We used to be the people that understood the chapter and verse of how you did accounting. Well, as you say, I can go and search that in ChatGPT or whatever your, your choices now. Um, so what are we. We have to be the people that add the trusted analysis and interpretation of those rules in the context that the question is asked. Now, the best way to frame that is example the surveyor has used. Um, you know, I, I want to remodel my kitchen or whatever. I can take a photograph. I can put that into ChatGPT. It can give me this wonderful view of what my kitchen should look like. Um, I have no clue whether it will structurally stand up or where the RSJ needs to go in that room. You know, the thing possibly can fall over. What is the role of the surveyor? The role of the chartered surveyor is add the integrity to what is possible from the vision. The role of the accountant is to add the integrity to what is possible for the organization, given the data that's presented to them. So that is a nuance in how we think about professions, but, uh, it's why professions still need to exist.

Speaker B: And you talked about curiosity as a, as a key skill. Um, and in the report, there are a number of other key skills that, that were mentioned in terms of, you know, that are vital for you to be able to have this long and flexible career.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Tell us a little bit about some of those.

Speaker C: Okay. Um, so I think we touched on quite a few in the conversation. Firstly, that sense of business acumen.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker C: Of strategy, a business understanding. Um, we talked about experience and how do we give people entering the workforce greater experience quicker. That is a fundamental skill, resilience and adaptability and the ability to cope with this very fast sense of change that we're going to experience and, and will continue to experience. We talked about that at the start of this conversation. The sense of collaboration and being um, intrapreneurial as well as entrepreneurial. We probably see as we refer to as well, that the organization, the future is not bounded by the traditional roles that you and I grew up with. You know that there's procurement down the corridor over there, there's accounting that way. Um, that the future organization is about the sum of the total talents added together in a, ah, in an innovative, creative, responsible environment or sorry, responsive environment. So being able to be collaborative outside your domain is fundamentally important and being empathetic, high levels of emotional intelligence. Because yes, as you said, ChatGPT can get to a point of some level, but it is still what defines the human, is how the human relates to the human.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and if you haven't got all of that in your kit bag, the technical skills can be good, but it's still not differentiating you from the machine.

Speaker B: So we've talked a lot about, obviously we talked about the what, what's driving some of these changes. We talked about what changes might be, what are happening. Um, and we've also talked about what are the skills with the focus on the soft skills needed. When you looked and you had all of these conversations, what concerned you most about what you found?

Speaker C: Um, that we can have the conversation. I think it comes more from the survey results rather than the conversations we had that sat behind the report. Um, that we don't appreciate what you said at uh, the very start of this conversation, the speed at which the world is changing and the fact that we probably all do need to continue to adapt. Um, in the report there's a graph which starts to ask the question, well, what roles are going to be replaced? And if you look at that graph and there's a quote underneath it in the report, which I put in that graph tells me basically what you and I think today. Yet people ask to think about five Years hence. So we're not doing the thinking about preparing ourselves for tomorrow, we're doing, oh, well, we will just roll forwards and roll with the, go with the flow sort of thing. Um, so you see, literally it says AP AR R. Ah, two R roles disappearing. But it doesn't actually, when you think about it, there are other roles in the finance community that will disappear or substantially change and we haven't understood the ripple effects.

Speaker B: Yeah, because, you know, uh, being a CFO is normally a pinnacle of a career. Not, you know, it's, it's, it's not normally a role that you step into at the start. Um, so, you know, for those CFOs that are sitting there going, yeah, but I'm, I'm, I'm like, I've got maybe one, maybe two more roles before I finish. Or I'm, you know, I'm on my, I'm on my exit plan. What would you say to them? Is it still something that they need to think about and, um, consider?

Speaker C: Yes, because one of the greatest concerns, and it's not just the CFO community, it's also the, the partner community and the other side of the, the profession is are we growing the talent that we need five years, 10 years down the line? And you asked me what question came up most in conversations, it was that concern of are we developing enough talent to enable me to exit the workforce in the way I want to? And nobody really has a feeling that we're actually doing that.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker B: And on that, I guess that theme, how expensive exposed is the UK to all of these factors in terms of are we in the middle of the road? Is this something all developing countries are hitting? Or because of our professional services focus, are we more likely to need to jump on this before.

Speaker C: Yes, we're in the middle of the road, but not in the way you probably think is the answer. Um, because when you dig into the survey results, um, yes, the UK and Europe as a whole sits smack bang in the middle of the numbers. If you go to Africa, there's a greater sense of optimism. If you go to China, the results are far more conservative.

Speaker B: M. Um,

Speaker C: so levels of optimism, lower levels of sense of adoption of technology being stronger in Africa, weaker in China, for example. And not often in ACCA research do we see marked regional differences. This was one time when you started to see very different pictures coming through. What it does sort of tell you is, um, Europe is sort of at this point, and I put the UK into Europe in this context is sort of a point where it needs to make a decision as to where it wants to go. Are we growing or are we slowly declining?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: And the survey results sort of build that out in a career sense of Europe. And the UK is on this cusp of growth. It's Africa's century sort of notion, which you get quite a lot in research. China being this decline. Where does Europe fit in? What is it the careers we want to build, where economically do we want to go? And how do we deal with being a more aging population when we need to grow careers in a way to keep us in the workforce longer. So there are some interesting questions about where the UK and um, broader Europe, uh, sits. Interestingly, North America sits more towards Africa in the positivity than Europe.

Speaker B: Interesting. That is interesting.

Speaker C: Which may be a slight factor of the demographics of the survey respondents in North America, just to put a word of caution that. But it does come across far more positive than Europe. City in the center. So it's not a developed world question from the survey data.

Speaker B: So I could probably spend the next few hours working your brain. I'm very aware that uh, we have a typical time limit for a podcast. And I think what's really important in this is that we think we talk about what do we need to do now as uh, both leaders within our organizations, but also I guess guardians of the future of finance and what that means. What is it that you would encourage the CFOs, the future CFOs and those listening to this podcast to think about in terms of what that means? I guess for them personally, but also for their teams, what should they be considering?

Speaker C: First thing, can I say, I think this is a positive story and if we've come across as here are a list of problems, deal with them.

Speaker D: Um,

Speaker C: that's not the intention. It is a positive story. There are massive opportunities. The work life blend can be so much better if we get this human machine balance in the right way. So can I just stress this is a positive story and I think it's one of opportunity.

Speaker B: Definitely there, isn't there? You know, we talk about wanting to be able to switch off at ah, um, at five o'. Clock. Like how many CFOs actually turn their off after five? Right. I think a lot of us can sit there and go, yes, I'd, I'd quite like, I like how we're using the new word work life blend, how that can be more um, in keeping. And also I think there is something to be said about that cognitive improvement. You know, we're functioning better we are living longer. That's, that's all really positive stuff.

Speaker C: So I think the message is understand what we've talked about today and the changes that are probably, ah, coming down the line.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Think about how you plan towards the future and don't let the future plan you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, is that we actually do need to do something. It's not a sit and wait and see. Right now we do need to be thinking about how we're developing those softer skills and how, um, I guess how our teams are developing that. Because I guess we have a, you know, an obligation, but a duty to our team to make sure that they're

Speaker C: prepared and, and think about your balance of the workforce differently that, that those that may be more mature in years aren't people who you necessarily want to exit the workforce in the way that you traditionally did. Um, think about how you appeal to the entrance into the workforce given that that pool is not as broad as it used to be, that requires different strategies. It's about, uh, challenging some of the balances of your perception of what careers are and what your workforce needs to be going forwards and not just writing generations off. Because stereotypes fit in a certain way.

Speaker B: And I can say that personally, I think it's quite interesting in that there's an amazing set of abilities and knowledge and talent in the older generations that we're not harnessing because we have that, like you say, that perception of who they are and what they want. I think a lot, some, some of the conversations I've had recently been super interesting about, you know, they, they want to add value that they don't necessarily want to hold the reins and be the person in charge, but they, they, they have so much to bring and they're not ready to finish. They want keep going. So I think that's, that's an interesting piece, isn't it? Maybe thinking about those, those demographics and we, and like you say, your perceptions of who people are and what they want maybe need to change in terms of the value they can add.

Speaker C: And in the online version of the report we put two articles from, um, advocacy groups, let me call them those. One representing those entering the workforce and some of the trenches and those at, uh, the more mature end of the workforce. And it's interesting, they're short articles. Go and read them. They just give you an insight into how you perhaps need to think differently. Um,

Speaker B: so, yeah, so, so if I maybe sum up. So it's been so great conversation as always. Right. And interesting. I guess to hear the journey of thought that you guys go through to get to the results. So, so I think what's important is to understand that careers aren't going to be linear and that uh, as we move into this increasingly technology evolved, um, generation of workforces, we need to be aware of those soft skills because that's the value that we add to that machine piece. I think the key piece is that this isn't going away. Sticking your head in the sand isn't going to fix it. And we actually do need to start thinking about this, but also maybe understanding how, and thinking about how the demographics could impact the changes that we're seeing could impact your organization both now and in the future and making sure that you're thinking about how you address, address that. Is there anything else that I've missed? What are you.

Speaker C: I think that's a brilliant summary, Hannah. Thank you.

Speaker B: I was paying attention, I promise.

Speaker D: Clive.

Speaker B: Um, so I want to say a massive thank you Clive. As, as always, I love our conversations. Um, and it is, it's so interesting to explore, you know, the, the landscape that we live, we live and work in. If people want to read the report because it is actually an like it is genuinely interesting. There's a shift, huge amount of information in there, some of it we have not even managed to dig into. Um, though we've tried to cover as much as we can. Where, where is the best place to find it and what's the name of the report? So everyone's aware.

Speaker C: So I, I think uh, in the show notes here there's a link to the online version which is um, a more summary version. There are some interviews, there are some videos uh, in there as well which give you the highlights. So click on that link. If you can't find it then go to the ACCA website, go to Policy and Insights and if you search for career paths reimagined, you will find all the content there.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Thank you so much Clive. And to our listeners, you know, like part of this is I always try to find the balance between practical like day to day pieces and thinking about what the future holds for finance and what that means for us individually and for finance as a workforce. So if you have enjoyed this podcast, if you'd like more on these kind of topics, I'd love to hear from you. If you've enjoyed it and you want to rate it, please like share and leave us a review because it's always great to, to get those kind of responses and allows us to reach more people with our content. So thank you so much Clive for joining me and um, um, yeah, we'll see you next time on the CFO 4.0 podcast. Thanks Clive.

Speaker C: Bye.

Speaker B: So for those of you that don't know what we do here at itas, we are a financial transformation consultancy that specializes in sage technologies. Whether that is looking at a new solution, evaluating your current solution, or just helping you to get the most out of your current setup, we can help. But rather than me tell you all the reasons that you should consider working with us as a sage partner or a transformation consultancy partner, I'm going to let our customers do the talking for us.

Speaker D: ITAs were there from the, from the sort of get go, helping us, you know, talking through what the process was going to involve, setting expectations, you know, making it clear that how much work we were going to have to put in to make sure that the project was a success at the, at the end, um, and then talking us through all our different options, looking through our current processes, making us reevaluate what was important, which elements we wanted to um, move across to the new system, how we wanted to configure our new system and also kind of making us sit back and really think about what is the success of this project when we get to the other end, when we finish the implementation and we're in the system, what's success going to like, look looks like and actually you know, putting that question back to us and really making us sit down and think about what is it that we, that we are looking to gain um, from this whole process was, was really useful internally making us really think about the key objectives and which areas maybe prioritise over others. Um, it was also really helpful sitting down and thinking about it rather than one big huge project, actually splitting it down into different phases, um, sort of smaller bite sized chunks which made it seem a little bit more achievable um, within the time. Um, and then thankfully ITAs have been super flexible with us during this process because it all, it happened to coincide our implementation with our first ever financial audit which just took up huge amounts of our time that we didn't expect. So we did have to um, slightly push back some of the of our go live dates and um, thankfully ITAs were accommodating and actually helped us navigate through that process. And like to say that thankfully we're out the other side of our first days of go live and uh, yeah, loving the move to intact.