280. CFOs CFO | How to Delegate Like a CFO: Strengths, Ownership & Fractional Support with Sara Daw

Speaker A: Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, managing director of itas, a financial transformation consultancy, as ah, she invests, interviews key experts to give you real world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and data. Uh, welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

Speaker B: Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I'm your host, Hannah Munro, and with me today is a returning guest and um, Sara Dorf, who is the CEO of the CFO Center. Welcome Sara. It's great to have you with me

Speaker C: today and great to be back. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Speaker B: So we're going to talk today about almost how to build that team around you, um, in order to live the objectives that you have as a cfo. And sometimes it can be a lot broader than maybe that traditional cfo, um, role. So let's just talk about how do you build a team around you as a CFO that really plays to your strengths, um, but also enables you to meet their goals of the business?

Speaker C: Yes. So I think, um, you hit the nail on the head there with your intro around the question around playing to your strengths. So I think that's important obviously for the CFO and understanding yourself and knowing how, um, you operate best. But also I think it goes further than that and it goes towards your team and playing to the strengths of the team. So I'm a really big believer in this. It's a team game and having the right people in the right roles at the right time in an organization, whether that's full time, part time, fractional or flexible. Yet it's really important, I think that, um, you understand the strengths of all the individuals in the team. Because what I see as a bit of a pitfall sometimes is that we tend to focus on people's deficit, their weakness, and bring them up to a mediocre level. Whereas I'd rather flip that completely on its head and play to everyone's strengths. And then, so then we have the specialness of everyone, we have their passion, we have normally their excitement around those elements of the roles and then in a collective way, looking at the gaps that that might, um, show up between those strengths and understanding then how to fill those gaps in a team environment. Because then I think you get really high performance if you do it that way.

Speaker B: And um, we've talked about playing to our strengths but there are some elements where I guess we need to make an assessment as an individual as to should that be something I need to work on because it forms part of my role as CFO versus what can I outsource? Because it's not an area of passion or interest for me personally and so

Speaker C: I could push it out.

Speaker B: So how do you see that balance working? Are there any particular things that a uh, CFO shouldn't outsource or delegate to others versus you know, what they could or you know, should keep just for them for themselves to master potentially even if it's not their area of strength?

Speaker C: Yes. And I think this works for your team members and for um, you as a CFO as well. I think it's. So I said that point up front about knowing yourself. So normally um, our strengths are areas where we have an interest, where we have some passion, we have some training and expertise and obviously we're in a, we're in an area of the business where we're in a business that allows us to operate in that area. And I think it's. So it's important to know what those are but align those then um, with the business needs. And it's really important I think that those trap that you stay within those tram lines and deliver yourself as the cfo, the things that are very, very valuable to the business and your strengths at the same time. Because so for instance if you are um, a public organization and you need to do a lot of investor relations, that may be absolutely the thing that only the CFO can do. Um, and that should be what they should do. And then they should look at the non core activities that fall within their remit that they could potentially outsource either to their team or bring in specialist expertise. So I think it's a matrix of understanding yourself and where you want to play and um, where you can play or where you want to develop yourself to play. And secondly then understand what the business needs and match up the high priority areas with your strengths and then outsource the rest that are non core. Um, and I think you can do that individually with your team members and yourself and for your team team members it's about knowing them individually, deeply, um, understanding where they excel and giving them the relevant, um, uh, distinctive work that would enable them to um, operate in that area of expertise, um, and then build complementary um, skill sets around that within the team. And you can do that for yourself and obviously for your team as well,

Speaker B: and obviously, as a cfo, like, the. The volume of what needs to be done and all sits within your remit is massive. How do you balance, you know, delegating activities that perhaps are outside of your strength and. Or interest or priority list with maintaining oversight of those things? What. What's your advice for maybe for that side of things?

Speaker C: I think it's really important to delegate well and I think there's quite a lot of, um, uh, I guess, misunderstanding around delegating. Well, because delegation is not abdication, because that creates more work. Delegation, um, is a huge skill, actually, and one of the skills that I think is absolutely critical for a CFO of today, given we've just talked about all the tasks they've got to do. So if they're not doing all of them. Your very question, how do you delegate well and it not create extra work for you to either go back and redo things that aren't done well or just spend a lot of time in oversight? So I think the key thing is to delegate outcomes, not tasks, um, to be really clear on what the outcome is. So it's not. Can you look at this? It is, I need a cash flow ready, um, a board report on the cash flow with three scenarios by Friday. Um, and then be really clear around what the individual you're delegating to, um, is in control of, what might need to escalate and what needs to be signed off. And then have checkpoints along the way to make sure that you're supporting as they go. And there's a little bit of a safety net there, so you don't get to the end point and realise it's completely gone off track. Um, and obviously if you play to their strengths within that, you have more chance of it being done correctly as well. So maybe it's delegating not by hierarchy, but by delegating to people by their strengths. Um, so I think you're absolutely right to pick on delegation as an absolutely key skill here for the CFO in order to be able to keep on top of everything

Speaker B: and where, you know, where task isn't completed well. Right. What should you be thinking about as CFO when. Because I think that can be the challenge you, uh, know, speak for somebody that has a team, right. That the hardest bit is once, if something doesn't go well, what you delegated is that, well, why. Why was it, you know, is digging into that. So what are the key questions you need to ask yourself when perhaps a delegation hasn't gone to plan?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I guess Um, I think you've got to look at yourself, uh, to a degree like did I delegate? Well, so did I follow that framework up front that we just spoke around? Um, because it could just be that I chose the wrong person. I wasn't clear, I didn't support them along the way. We didn't have the checkpoints and the milestones. We didn't have one owner. So I think that's another key way to delegate. Well, is no ambiguity around the ownership of that, that delegated outcome. Uh, it is very clear who owns it, the person you've delegated to with support. So I think first I would be going to that framework and saying, did we execute that well? And I think it's a potentially it's a we conversation. It's not a uh, you, uh, and it's not a me, it's do it together. Because then you can, with that team member, you can then smooth that forward for the next time and create um, a collaborative, moving forward, positive environment around it, rather around learning as opposed to blame. Um, and then I think it's also being really clear around the gaps in the first place. So um, it could be that we delegate. I delegated to someone that actually didn't have the full skill set in the first place and needed development into that skill set. So it wasn't their strength. It could be, um, they were in the wrong seat and I assumed um, it could be. Actually we don't even have that skill set in the organization and we need to bring a specialist in. So it could be um, I delegated well but that individual, you know, just didn't have the skills and I need to fill those gaps. So I think it's almost um, it's almost critical at ah, the front end to understand the skills matrix of my team, uh, up front to then place the delegation, um, piece across that. So then you know where your gaps are and then you'll see that, you know, you're getting to a point where m. You may have need of a new role or more development opportunities in an organization. Obviously if things continuous, if you, if you put all that in place and things don't go well, then you're looking at performance review and all those sorts of things.

Speaker B: And does your delegation style or approach change depending on the level of the individual or how would it change? I guess probably more, yes.

Speaker C: So I think this is interesting because I've spoken a lot around delegation in the sort of team context there, uh, around the CFO is the senior member of the team and they have um, more junior members of the team working with them who all report in. There is another, um, way of delegation, another role in, in organizations that we're seeing more and more of where you bring specialists in to do specialist roles that may actually sit more alongside in a peer type context, um, alongside the cfo. And the beauty of bringing them in is. So this could be fractional C suite for example, and fractional cfo. The beauty of bringing those individuals in in a peer context is it's another one of me because they've sat in my seat before, which is really nice. Um, they know what it feels like so they can sympathise, uh, and empathize. And yet they have perhaps complimentary skills to me because they're non core to the organization. But I have a volume of work that I need to get done. Now what I would say in those types of situations is typically those individuals do not necessarily need to have the same level of oversight because they've got the skills that I've got. And that's the beauty of bringing them in. So they're less draining on my time. I understand that they can do the work. So it's more around, um, uh, that would be for me more around communication, um, to the team, around who's doing what. So there's no ambiguity around that. It would be more around um, communication around timelines and expectations and outcomes. But probably less, um, less draining on my time around the checkpoints along the way, necessarily around how the works get done. It's probably at just what, what uh, what level you're at at each stage are you on time? Because you would expect that specialist to be able to deliver and be able to do the how themselves.

Speaker B: Yeah. And um, what, what scenarios have you seen obviously within your line of work? This, you know, you have a lot, you know, you're working with a team of fractional CFOs. Where have you seen the scenario, what scenarios have you seen that really work for that kind of fractional piece to support an existing CFO? The CFOs. CFO as it were. Yes.

Speaker C: Yeah, the CFO. CFO. So it's really, it's quite broad actually. Um, what we've seen is where there's. So I'll give you some examples. So where there's a volume of work to get done. So recently a business that needed to do 44 acquisitions very, very quickly and um, you know, there's probably, probably no human CFO that could get that done in the timescale on their own that they were looking for and keep the business running and do bau. So then it's a choice. Point is, do I bring in specialist cfo, fractional cfo, um, to be a cfo, CFO alongside me, and they do the acquisitions and I do bau, or do we switch that around and then that. So then that goes to probably the strengths of the incumbents cfo, which do I want to do? Where's my best value add for this piece? In the situation we had, we did the acquisitions and this and um, reported into the CFO and ticked them off as we got going and they carried on running uh, bau, but it could be the other way round. And we've seen that as well where, um, you know, a CFO that we've helped wanted to do an acquisition but needed someone to keep a steady hand on the, on the ship for the bau. So that's perfect. That can work. Um, other scenarios are, ah, where um, I'm new to the CFO role, so perhaps this is my first CFO role and I don't have years and years of experience. And actually I would like someone to be a bit of a safety net for me, for the organization and develop me and be a sounding ball for me. Um, so that's more of a generic ah, role, more of a mentoring role that a cfo, CFO can do. Um, we also have it where, um, it isn't M and A, but maybe it's systems. Um, so you bring in a specialist who can move ahead with your systems integration or perhaps AI enablement. So it can be functional, it can be sector, it can be structural, it can be mentoring. Um, and quite frankly, um, you know, all of those are on the table. Uh, the key thing is there are some ground rules, a little bit about how it works and how you make sure that the organization gets the best of it and both parties, um, deliver value.

Speaker B: And that's obviously, I guess a piece around working with somebody of a similar level or a similar level. They might have more experience in an area, but they used to working at that sort of that more senior C suite level. So, you know, how do you work with somebody at that level to both give them the, I guess, the freedom that they, they used to and they expect with, but also making sure that you've got your hand on the rudder as to what's going on, what, you know, what's, what's important to make sure that you get the value from those kind of relationships.

Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. Uh, and I think there are these ground rules and I think it's really important to position this well both um to the organization internally and externally and with the individuals themselves. So firstly I think everyone must be willing. I think that's really important. So this is a positive step forward. Um and it's not seen as a negative. This is um scaling capability, it's accelerating growth, it's delivering on the business priorities. So it's a positive step forward. Um that means that everyone benefits both the um individual receiving the support or the extra skill sets and the business and the team. So firstly they're willing. I think um, you need to be clear why you're doing it. So it could be that there's complementary skills and um capabilities like I just said around. I've never done this before. Um I'd like to learn from you or can you do it for me? Um or equally it could just be extra bandwidth, you know I could do it but quite frankly I, you know I just don't have the time. Um I think the personalities. The key thing is I think these two people need to get on. They really need to be able to get on. Um and don't underestimate that because it's just a non starter. So I think they need to um. You know and that needs to be two way mutual respect communication between the two individuals is vital. So they need to be clear on who owns what, what are the responsibilities of each of them and then how is that communicated to the organization internally and externally for the relevant people to know. Because the last thing you want is muddled reporting lines and um, you know not really supporting each other in unity to the organisation. So being one voice to the organization and having clear roles I think is so important. Um M And if there are any conflicts um, doing them behind closed doors. So it's always one voice to the team in the organization and having a mechanism for conflict resolution and I mean conflict resolution sounds quite serious but. But I guess there will be times where there could be disagreement about the way to do things or what to do. Um and that's healthy. So in a healthy way of debating um having ways to understand, having ways to um work out how they're going to work through perhaps those difficulties. Um and I actually think shared values is probably um something that we may not talk about but I think that's very important to talk about in how they go around things and maybe even an understanding what is the timeline on this. I'm here to do this for this amount of time and being really clear around what that is and then maybe something and then Maybe the next thing and the next thing, but really getting time bounded, uh, projects, um, that we all understand when we started them, when we're on the way and when we finish them and what, what a good outcome is.

Speaker B: Yeah. And do you know what, it's really interesting because obviously a lot of this plays into consulting as well. So I'm a big believer. I think your point about, um, you need to get on. I think people underestimate the importance of that because it's not, it's. And I, I have a thing where I try and match customer personalities and organization personalities to the, to the consultants that they work with because I feel it's not when things are going well that, that that matters. You can kind of cope when things are going smoothly with somebody that maybe is a little. You don't get on with well. But as soon as you hit a challenging situation or a, uh, like you said, a conflict, that's where it really comes into play. And I find that's where you know that having somebody that I guess is on the same level as you and I like your concept about shared values is really important at that stage.

Speaker C: Yes. And I think it's really important for the incoming peer CFO CFO to uh, have the back. I've got your back. Of the individual, the CFO that they're reporting into. It's all about making them look good and developing them or easing the burden on them, um, developing their knowledge of the organization or just making sure they get everything done that they need so that they can. Then they're well equipped to take that to the board and to move things forward. I really feel it is, it's so vital that that's one unit and we're there, um, or whoever's there as a cfo, CFO to make them look good. Um, because most of these CFO CFOs, they don't want that role. They have stepped away from that role, the main CFO's role, and they've chosen to work uh, in a fractional CFO way. So, but they, the important bit is they know what it feels like and they know that everything often stops at their door. So they can be very empathetic and they can share strategies around, you know, around the project they're working on, but just around being that group CFO as well and how to um, you know, thrive in that sort of role.

Speaker B: And I think that's an interesting piece I just want to pick up with you. So there's an interesting trend at the moment with people especially at the latter stages of their career, taking less stressful or less hierarchical roles within an organization, you know, using their experience to go be the number 2 instead of the number the 1, because they want the challenge, they want the work, but they don't perhaps want all of the responsibility and accountability at time the same that stop, you know, at that top level. How do you, you know, have you got any advice for people that may be working with people that are more experienced than them or have, you know, that are older than them or, you know, what's your advice for working with people where there's a perceived, um, level of experience greater than your own? How do you access that whilst still being, I guess, in that authority figure within the organization?

Speaker C: Yeah, actually I feel it's about being vulnerable, but. And to do that you have to feel safe to do that. Yet I don't think it's so, um, you're not going to get the most out of that individual if you're not open enough to receive, um, the advice that they might be able to give. So it's about the relationship again and the communication. If it's very clear that that individual that's uh, mentoring you or helping you doesn't want your role, you shouldn't feel threatened. They're there to make you look good. So then it's about being prepared to be vulnerable and open with that individual. And that's where I think the magic can really happen because then you can get a real transfer of knowledge, of experience. They're on the end of the phone, you've always got someone that you could call. And I actually think that's so liberating. Um, and nothing feels quite so bad or quite so stressful when you've got that outlet and someone there who can empathize and understand and give you practical, real strategies that have worked in the past. But you're never going to get to that point if you don't get to that level of relationship between the two that enables you to put the whole, your whole cards on the table because if you're not open enough, you're not going to get the value. So, and I think there's real strength in being vulnerable. And the thing is, the beauty of this is that you can be vulnerable in that relationship and then show up with strength, um, and confidence to the organization that you're working in, which I think, um, enables them to feel confident around following you as that leader.

Speaker B: So let's just talk about the organisation perception, right? Because, you know, and I'm, you know, I Think I can speak for most cfo, especially if you're a new cfo, saying, actually I want to bring another CFO in to help me do my job. You know, that, that, that in itself is a difficult conversation. There's a brave person, let's be open to do. To do that and um, to, to be willing to talk about where they feel like they either haven't got capacity or gaps because I think, I think. I don't know whether it's a CFO piece, but we, you know, they don't like to show weakness. They like to be that voice of authority, that safe pair of hands for the organization. So how do you balance that with going actually here we need a resource.

Speaker C: Yes. So I think there's a couple of scenarios. There's some scenarios where the workload is so vast that it is completely understandable to bring extra resource in and I think that's uh, an easier case because, uh, As I said, 44 acquisitions, well, I don't think anyone is going to get that done. So that's an easy step into it. However, if it's not so obvious like that yet, the CFO feels they need support because either they feel they've got too much to do or perhaps they don't have those skills and they're feeling a bit vulnerable in that space. Um, I think potentially framing it not as that you can't cope because I don't think that's going to instill confidence in the organisation, but more around strategic scaling in the organization. So it's the business complexity, um, has outgrown the capacity of just a single lens. Or perhaps this is about bringing in more capability to accelerate delivery. So it's selling it as. Which exactly is uh, something beneficial to the organization rather than I can't cope. Uh, what I have seen incidentally is that um, there have been CEOs and CEOs that have come come forward to say that they think their CFO needs help. Um, so it's maybe, um, and then it's a delicate conversation. But then again, I guess they're be framing it in. There's so much to do. Let's make sure. I think we've got to get away from. And I think it's a bigger issue. I think we've got to get away from expecting one individual, whatever role they're in. CEO, CEO C suite level one individual to hold every. Everything. We're seeing more co CEOs coming into organizations. If you look at a lot of the, um, big, uh, tech players, Spotify, Netflix, Oracle, they've all got CO CEOs or have had CO CEOs, because I think they're beginning to realize that with clear division of duties, two heads are better than one. More lenses, better perspective, wider perspectives, uh, more capability, et cetera. So I feel the team approach is actually something that the future of executive work will demand in the future. So I think we're at the bleeding edge of that now. Um, and it is a bit, um, you know, it can be a bit scary or to broach that conversation, but I think the way to do it is through the added value that it can bring to everyone. Uh, and I think that's the way to go while we're, while it's, while it's not, while it's still new, uh, to do it that way. But I do understand, um, put forward the wrong way, it can look like, um, you know, you're not good enough. Which, you know, is always what us as humans feel, um, you know, is something that holds us back.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think like with all of these things, you know, I think when you, you know, you, when you're clear about the objectives and what it's going to take to achieve something, you know, ultimately the business wants you to achieve a goal. And, and I think that's the really key piece. If you're saying, I think being clear that what you're asking for is because of the, the challenge that the business has put in front of you versus, uh, like you say, a weakness in them as an individual. It's, this is what you've given me. This is. I, you know, I'm determined to deliver on this and this is how we go to do it. I think it's really important and interesting piece. You know, I think we get so worried about sometimes about how we're perceived that we, we, we move away from that focus on what we're trying to achieve, which is always interesting.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think, um, you know, look, the best top athletes all have coaches. You know, it's, it's, it's absolutely, um, a learning mindset, a development mindset. Um, most top C suite individuals in large organizations will have executive coaches. And that is becoming more and more normalized where. What I see as, um, the, the slight difference with a cfo CFO is they're not just. They may do some coaching, um, if they're, if, if you need that development, but they're also going to do some delivery. And I think that's quite important because we are asking a lot of our CFOs going forward. The CFO's role now today has expanded hugely in the last 5, 10, 15 years and we're still operating that old model of one individual sitting in one seat to hold a whole function and expecting to them to be the technical master expert on the function and be a communicator, a storyteller, a uh, narrative, um, someone who holds the narrative around investment and manage a team and be an expert on all the different um, technology advancements that we've made. I mean the roles just expanded uh, beyond our knowledge, uh, and what we would have foreseen back then. So and it's incredibly risky I think from an organization's point of view to expect one individual to hold absolutely everything. So I think it's a whole mindset shift change around how we run our C suite. Um, and this is just a, you know, one, one facet of that of a way to, to help us.

Speaker B: And certainly some of the CFOs I've spoken to recently as well, they've been bought in normally for a particular purpose. You kind of get like Those project based CFOs you get those that are uh, steadying the ship, those that are running a already steady ship and those that are like you say, um, expecting to come on board, to own an M and a strategy or something else. So there's always going to be a reason that you were uh, you were chosen. But like you say, there's always the day job behind that as well. So finding that balance is so important and I am really genuinely excited to say for all of our listeners that this is part of an initial series. So Sara and the team at the CFO Centre, um, have been very kind enough to share some of their CFOs and their experience with us. So we're actually going to be doing a, ah, series of specialist interviews with um, individuals that have done a particular skill set or a particular area of focus so that everyone can learn and benefit from some of those skills. So that's part of our CFO CFO series which will be coming uh, shortly on the CFO 4.0 podcast. So just to wrap it up Sara, you know, I guess let's go back to where we started and let's give our top, your top tips for knowing what to delegate and how to delegate it.

Speaker C: Well, yes, so firstly I would be thinking the CFO is the orchestrator. They need to be staying ahead of the numbers and creating clear ownership around um, the deliverability of the outcomes that will feed into those numbers. So it's one owner I think that's so important around the team, using strengths intentionally, um, and knowing where your gaps are. So, um, to expand the team or bring in, bring in specialists or develop the team, um, escalate early because, you know, we'd much rather know if something wasn't going to get delivered, wouldn't we, um, before hand rather than after the event. Um, and I guess it's about um, you know, making finance the voice of foresight in the organization. So, you know, CFOs are about um, seeing what's coming, not, um, about what's just happened. So I would say, um, is proactively partnering with the rest of the organization through that structure.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Of course. So if any of our CFOs listening would like to learn more about um, obviously yourself and the concept of a cfo, cfo, where is the best place to sort of learn more about that?

Speaker C: So I think if you connect, uh, on LinkedIn, uh, through the website of the cfocenter.com or myself, just, just um, come and find me. We can, we're always happy to have a conversation.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much Sara. And thank you to our, uh, to our listeners for joining us today on the CFO for Window podcast. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please do, uh, reach out to me on LinkedIn or uh, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Because the more, the more you share, uh, the more people get to benefit from the podcast. And that also gives me a great way to decide on which topics to focus on for the future. So thank you so much Sara for joining and um, we'll see you next time on the CFO 4.0 podcast.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker D: Now for the 1 million pound question. What is the best finance software for your business? Is it A, sage 50, is it B, sage 200 standard, C, sage 200 professional, or D, Sage Intacct? An impossible question to answer without a lifeline, but we have the perfect lifeline for you. Our free quiz, which Sage product is right for you? Will tell you which product is the best fit for your business in just five minutes. All you need to do is head to www.itasolutions.co.uk and uh, answer a few simple question.