Lessons from a finance revolution at Mars, with Colin Moss

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Speaker B: Foreign.

Speaker A: Welcome to FP&A today. I'm your host, Glenn Hopper. Our guest today is Colin Moss. Colin is a commercially astute purpose driven finance and transformation leader with more than 20 years experience across global consumer goods businesses. He spent nine years at Cadbury and 14 at Mars holding Divisional CFO and VP roles including VP of Finance Strategy and Operation for Mars Incorporated. Colin led a multi year global finance transformation and previously served as CFO for Mars Wrigley UK where he integrated the legacy Mars and Wrigley businesses into a single organization. He also spent six years as a Trustee and Audit Committee Chair at the Institute of Grocery Distribution. Colin recently founded CM Strategies where he works as a fractional CFO and trusted partner to leaders and owners, helping organizations bring clarity, alignment and stronger value creation through finance. He is SEMA qualified and based in the uk. Colin, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you Glenn. Good to see you.

Speaker A: Yeah, glad to have you here and um, uh, I've been looking forward to this episode. I love your mix of uh, corporate, big company background and now moving into your own business. And I think that that's a career trajectory that a lot of our listeners have, have either taken or are aspiring to. So I'm, I'm excited to dig in.

Speaker B: Very good. Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: So I guess let's go. I'd like to set the foundation with the first question so maybe give us a little bit about your background and career in finance. I know you spent 14 years at Mars and moving up the chain there and but a few months ago you made the leap to start your own practice and that has to be very different. So I'm, I'm wondering, kind of walk us through first your background a little bit, but then I want to hear about the decision and uh, what you're doing now with CM Strateg and how you're finding that compared to the corporate life.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. So, yeah, so I started my career at Cadbury Schweppes. Um, so I was a graduate there in the finance program and did a range of different roles there. Um, and then I moved to Mars, uh, after nine years at Cadbury Schweppes, um, both businesses are very much purpose driven, very much values orientated. So when I was growing up in life in Cadbury, it was about a mantra of performance driven and values led. Um, and then in Mars they have the five principles and they're really lived every day so they do business the right way. Um, and so I've had a great time working for both those businesses and actually quite hard to leave. I um, had a good level of loyalty for both but I always promised myself that I would take what I learned and go and continue to develop and learn elsewhere. Um, and so now CM Strategies is my uh, work to bring my experience to lots of different businesses. So I'm partnering with businesses large and small across a range of things including capability building in finance, still some finance transformation work and some fractional CFO work as well with some smaller businesses. And it's hugely varied. Um, gives me a lot of autonomy, um, but it's also stretching me in a lot of new ways as well. So it's a lot of fun.

Speaker A: Yeah. And having worked with both myself, it's always interesting things that you maybe take for granted in, in big companies it's easy no matter what your level. You can be in this silo where you're surrounded by experts who all speak exactly the same language and you're all talking about the same things and nothing, there's nothing new under the sun. But then when you come to a smaller business, sometimes bringing that finance mindset is something that they maybe haven't had before. Especially if you get into the businesses that are the size and scope where finance is really, it's just accounting and it's mostly tax accounting is, is what they're thinking of with finance. Um, so are you finding that already working? I mean it's maybe it's that big fish, small pond sort of activity. When you come to a small company, are you seeing a difference there when talking to founder led businesses and to, and to people at smaller companies compared to uh, the groups that you work with and large companies?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think um, it's a lot of the same themes. So a lot of the same things are important regardless of the business size, regardless of the business context. But what I'm finding working with some of the smaller fast growing businesses is they don't have some of the things that we might take for granted if we've, if we've only worked in some of the big corporate environments and so things like reliable cash forecasting for example. Or just some fairly basic margin analysis. Those are the things that I'm finding. They're not always in place, and this tends to be with much younger businesses. They're only really kind of getting going. And, um, they might have some good accounting or kind of bookkeeping in place, but they don't have any business partnering. They don't have a strategic partner from finance to help them. And so finding those businesses where they've identified the need, but they haven't built the capability, that's a real sweet spot for me because I can add value quickly, which is obviously good for me, but it's also good for my clients as well. So, um, yeah, similar challenges, but certainly some of the capability gaps that we see are things that we might take for granted in some of the bigger businesses. And certainly at enterprise level. You would, you would take that as a given.

Speaker A: Yeah. And one thing, when I was looking at your career, um, sometimes I feel like with finance, I sort of stumbled backwards into it right out of business school. My first position was in marketing, long story. But the way I ended up coming into finance was through procurement, doing procurement for the operations team. So I rolled up to the coo, not the cfo. And. And when I came into finance, I felt like I, you know, I'd taken the courses in business school, but I was having to learn everything as I went. And I would talk to people who came up through, you know, public accounting or audit or whatever. And I've really felt like, especially because I'm not a cpa, um, you know, just was mba and coming in on the finance side, that being an internal auditor seems like it would be a great foundation as well. So I'm wondering. But also maybe not the most exciting. I know a lot of people. I don't. I'm not, I'm not, uh, taking a dig at any of our auditors out there. But it's. I think it's great foundationally, but it's a. It's. It's not easy work and can be. Can be a lot at times. So I'm wondering, when you came in as an auditor, was that an aspiration of yours? How did you get into that? Or what ultimately drew you into finance? And, and maybe thinking about how those early audit roles shaped the way you think about the function and maybe laid the foundation for your finance career.

Speaker B: Yeah, so my first role in, uh, Cadbury Schweppes was internal audit, so I was on the finance graduate scheme. Um, you actually had to have, uh, capability in a foreign language, um, to get one of the roles. Because we were traveling around to different countries and auditing right across the world. And so we had Spanish speakers, French speakers, and I speak German. So that was one of the reasons I got the job. The other reason was I'd done a business degree so I kind of brought a bit of both of what was needed. But internal audit was really appealing because it cut right across the business. So we were doing process reviews and because it was internal audit, it was really about how can we add value, how can we make lives easier for people. We weren't there to try and catch people out. We weren't the police. So actually it was a really, uh, highly regarded part of the finance function. Um, so it's a global team. And for an entry role it was perfect. So we had a combination of fresh young graduates like myself, some really experienced auditors and managers above us. And we would travel with them. So you learned really quickly. Uh, you had genuine accountability right from the start. And I got to see a lot of the world as well. You know, we were away two weeks out of every three. So there was a lot of travel. And actually it was a really close knit team because of that. So we even had an award. It was, it was called the Bailey Award. Um, and that was for volume. Various stories that we found when things didn't quite go to plan on these trips. Um, and then it was awarded every month. Um, just a bit of fun in the team. And that was a good start in my career, you know, to think that we can work hard. But it doesn't all have to be too serious either. Um, but the learning there was great foundation across, cutting across the business. Seeing different divisions, different geographies and trying to help to make recommendations that would add value. It was really good start for my career.

Speaker A: So you're looking at finance, but you're also looking at process. And I think the two go together. And I think of every CFO role I had and even roles before that where, whether it's the close process or revenue recognition or uh, whatever is going on in accounting and finance, it's so much more than this is the end result. This is what we're reviewing. It's about how you get there. So I imagine that that process thinking really carried over as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, and it just makes you think end to end. So even it could be, you know, payroll audit or something like just just looking at one isolated process. But you'd be looking at, well, how do we manage new joiners, how do we make sure levers are uh, properly handled. And so, you know, those things cut right across. And we actually did an audit on payroll, um, in Nigeria. And we had some serious concerns about some of the processes because they. They were taking cash to the bank or taking cash out of the bank the same time every week. So it was a bit of an audit risk for the people involved physically in the process. And so, you know, we were able to look at that and come up with recommendations that helped reduce the risk for the business, but also reduce the risk for the people involved.

Speaker A: The other thing that I think about with coming in through audit is you're business partnering and you're going around and you're working with different groups, but you're not really a part of the groups. And I know business partnering and embedding is an approach that a lot are taking, but there was. I love this post you put, uh, on LinkedIn recently about a formative moment early in your career. You said you sat down with a business leader and said, let's take a look at your numbers, and he stopped you cold. And I don't want to steal your punchline, but tell us that story and what it taught you about, uh, about business partnering.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this was years ago, but it really stuck with me. It was the first meeting I had with my new business partner. It was back in Cadbury days. And I just sat down and just said, oh, you know, let's look at your numbers. And he said, they're not. They're not my numbers. And then he went quiet and there was this silence. I just did not know what to do with. Um, and then after that silence, he just smiled and said, there are numbers. There are numbers. And I was kind of quite relieved because I realized that he not only had ownership himself, uh, the business performance, but he wanted me to share that with him. And that was a real mindset shift for me. I realized I was initially approaching business partnering in the wrong way. Um, and just that, I don't know, 30 seconds of reality check was, um, really, really helpful just to reset how I was thinking about the relationship and what that partnering was going to look like. And then from there, of course, we had different experience to bring to the table. We each had different skills and we, we were able to partner, so we were able to support each other, challenge each other, and each bring something different. And from there, I've always loved business partnering since that moment, and it very nearly felt like it was going wrong. Um, but the way that it was handled made it really stick.

Speaker A: And business partnering sounds Fantastic. And I know we've all had relationships where sometimes it's better than others. Sometimes, no matter what, uh, an engineer or an ops person or a marketing person may think you're somehow. They may not embrace that full, uh, that partnership. But your approach obviously, uh, goes a long way to it, where it's clear to them you're not the police, you're not here to give them a citation or, or whatever the case is. But from your experience since then, are there, like, what does it look like when it's going well versus when it's. There might be issues, and how do you overcome the latter there?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I still see people in the teams that I've worked with being. You can see they're really frustrated, and they'll be saying, oh, you know, my stakeholder or my partner just doesn't get it. They don't understand that frustration. That frustration is data. It helps to say, well, what's going wrong? And maybe the partnering isn't working well for me. When it's working well, it's something that's natural, so it's sought by the people that you're partnering with. So whether that's marketing or sales, they want you there, they want finance there. So you're there right at the start. From the outset of those conversations, it's a combination of support and challenge. So you have to have those tough conversations. You have to be able to challenge, and that needs to be something that's welcomed, that we can then build on. But another feature is that it has to be in service of something. So having common goals, being clear about what it is we're trying to achieve, that's really at, uh, the heart of good business partnering. Because that allows us to then say, well, we can challenge each other quite hard. We know why we're doing that, we know what it's in service of, and we share those outcomes, the good and the bad. So it really is a partnership, but it has to be a safe place where you can be quite challenging. And I think trying. It's not trying to be the expert. So sometimes finance can be trying to be too clever. We know we're clever, but we don't have to be too clever. Sometimes we can keep it simple, but really making sure we come and we challenge for the right reasons, um, to help to drive business performance improvements.

Speaker A: Yeah. And actually, when what really struck me that you were saying there is sort of a theme with what we talked about before the show, talking about having a destination and an objective of what you're doing there. And you said the same thing about transformation programs. And I think I, uh, say this all the time. We've been talking about digital transformation for decades and there's always this finance transformation and that one. But a lot of times either companies treat it as if it's a one and done. It's like, well, we've already transformed. What more could we have to do? What you talked about setting off without that clear destination in mind, and it's just, well, we're transforming and I, uh, don't know. You know, it's hard when it's that vague and gray. It's hard to know what that is. Um, but when we talked about digital transformation, you were noting how much faster it goes if you know what that endpoint is. And I know you led, uh, global finance transformation at Mars, and I'm wondering how you helped keep that mission, how you avoided the trap of just kind of flailing without achieving the goal. And uh, in the case of Mars, to whatever extent you're able to give details, I'd love to know what the destination you were aiming for was and what, maybe compare, contrast the before and after.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'll sort of respect the fact that Mars is a relatively private company given its family owned, but I can certainly share some themes, Glenn. I mean, it's one of the things that I think worked really well in that transformation was having a clear vision for the function. So we were really clear what was finance there to do. It was a combination of protecting value and creating value. So think about things like governance and control elements, business partnering elements, um, and those things needed to come together to make sure that finance was a really influential function in terms of both protecting and creating value. So that we had that vision up front. One of the complications in a business of that scale is that you have lots of different starting points. So I would say that we had a destination in mind, but the departure points were different. All over the globe you could have different ways of doing an accounts payable or receivables process across different divisions and geographies. And trying to get to one common way of doing things isn't easy. But the more clear you can be about what that ultimately needs to look like. Where are we heading? That's really kind of a, uh, key part of the success of those programs. And interestingly, I've been talking to people more recently outside of Mars, and it's clear those programs don't always go well. So sometimes different consultants will come in and pick up the pieces when it hasn't gone right first time. And so it needs to be a shared vision. And one of the things that worked really well in Mars was that we looked at it as a business transformation rather than just finance transforming in isolation. So we were really clear, where does finance need to play? What sorts of decisions do we need to be involved with and influencing? And then helped us to say, well, what's the right structure, processes? What systems and data do we need? And so that was really starting with a clear destination in mind, was a big success criteria.

Speaker A: Yeah. And in that transformation, and I think this is transformation in general, and I think it is an important distinction to say it's not just a finance transformation, it's a business transformation. And several that I've been involved in, I've pushed and I've been, been in a lucky enough situation in them where I had enough firepower, uh, behind me that I could make this happen. But as part of that transformation, my recommendation was always finance needs to be involved in the definition. And, and, but this isn't just finance is going to come in and wield a heavy hammer. But finance needs to be involved in defining the KPIs, because we are think about what we do for, from the financial statements, finance numbers and everything that we manage. We are the impartial observer in this. So if we can come in, talk to operations, talk to sales, talk to marketing, service delivery, you know, whatever group customer support that we're talking to and help align on, these are the KPIs we're going to measure. These are the ones that matter the most. We're all going to get sort of our data dictionary and be singing from the same sheet of music here. And I know, and this isn't specific to Mars necessarily, but digital or finance transformations, business transformations, whatever they are, typically they're going to involve revamping management reporting as part of that. Um, and the idea is, I think if it is truly across the company, it's not just for the finance team, it's to give leaders across the company controllable metrics they can actually recognize and own, and they're not shifting and being redefined in transformations that you've been a part of. Can you talk about accountability and what you're solving with revamping management reporting and just we could generalize it more too, to what we need to be looking at, if we're really looking at, uh, refining that management reporting that we do every month.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, probably talking just generically to start with, there's generally speaking people that I've worked with throughout my career. They, they want the business that they're working for to be successful. So you're kind of pushing on an open door to an extent. What we found through the transformation programs that I've been involved with is that we can find ways to dial that up even more. So people might naturally feel an affinity for the business they work with and feel some real ownership. Um, but in a big enterprise, it can be difficult to really feel like an owner. Um, and so when we were looking at performance management theory and thinking about KPI design, we really wanted to make sure people had as much accountability for the decisions they were making as possible and that they were measured against things that they could, broadly speaking, control. Um, so that meant things like we would look at how we would allocate costs and things like cross charges to make sure that we optimized the KPIs and just make sure we then optimize as a result of that, uh, the ownership that we saw from stakeholders across the business. And, you know, we were building on a strength anyway in the companies I've worked for because people wanted to make a success of it anyway. Um, but really sort of thoughtful KPI design and making sure that we have metrics that counterbalance as well. So, you know, typically you'll see a growth metric for revenue, uh, growth, um, and best practice that we've seen is that it's counterbalanced with profitability and, you know, capital allocation metrics as well. So that you're looking holistically, um, about value and not just looking at maybe one metric that might be something that we can drive through a particular team. Um, and so those sets of metrics and KPI design all taken together can help to make sure that everyone's pulling in the same direction with that real feeling of ownership. So that was what we were looking to do and really kind of thoughtful KPI design and things like looking at the operating rhythm, you know, what's the frequency that we would do for forecasting, what is the granularity of planning. All that is an art, um, that needs to take into account the business context and what you're trying to achieve, you know, what's the strategy you're trying to execute against. But yeah, we put a lot of thought into things like KPI design and management reporting for sure, in your experience

Speaker A: and as you advise companies now, where does finance fit into that? Because I think in a lot of areas, I mean, finance is not just the general ledger anymore. It is, uh, we need data for our Forecasts and for our analysis and whether it's churn analysis or whatever we're looking at, we need data from other groups. But what is finance's role in defining, helping to define. Not that we're gonna, that we could or should have the edict to just say we're defining these KPIs for you. But where does finance fit in that if the head of operations is saying this is truly an operational metric and going to define, I mean, is there pushback there sometimes? Or uh, what's the best approach with business partnering to help the different divisions have that? Because I think with finance people, we're the original business analysts. I think going back to the early part of my career. I don't even know if we were calling it FPA back then. It was just the finance guy and what we were doing. Am I wrongheaded, do you think, especially for larger companies maybe to think that finance needs such a big voice in defining these KPIs.

Speaker B: So I call it uh, the voice of performance. And uh, that's what I think of as finance. And finance doesn't have to just use what you might call classic finance metrics. So we can bring in operational data, external data particularly. Now if you think about sustainability agendas, for example, you need to be able to pull together different relevant information points, um, into one picture. And where I think it works best is finance working as part of a cross functional team and leaders coming together from across different disciplines. Of course you need to look at more than just finance metrics, but getting a shared dashboard where people understand that full picture and the bigger picture definitely has some key finance metrics at the heart of that. Um, thinking about how value is created holistically. And that can certainly be done in a way that's good for wider society, good for the categories that those businesses operate in. Um, but it starts with what's good for the business as well across functionally. So I think finance has got a key role and as I say, I describe it as the voice of performance.

Speaker A: And what about the data piece around data and MDM or master, uh, data management? Um, and I know in your transformation work those have been embedded from the start and I'm, I'm thinking about in my day job now, I end up selling, uh, into the office of the CFO and then the cfo, all the finance group. There may be some people with good, you know, there will be people with good bi chops and maybe even a couple of data scientists in there, but there's not really it people in There. And I think about historically where data has fit. I have a tendency to want a heavy hand when I come in and say it should handle the plumbing. You know, in finance we need to own the data because we're the ones reporting on it. We're defining and all that. But it's. That can be an area for friction. So I'm wondering. And also we have deep domain expertise, whether it's on the accounting side, the finance side, whatever part of the office of the CFO we're working in, that's our primary focus. So we're never going to be as good a, uh, data scientist as someone who is a data scientist at their heart. We're never going to be good DBA as someone who does database management. So it's hard to figure out we know what we want, but it's not part of our core skillset. So if you're doing this business transformation, how do you approach building a data foundation? And then what, you know, what decisions do you work backward from? Especially knowing we're not necessarily data experts. It's just, it's a tough situation. And I find it every day when we're. As a consultant, I'm trying to come into the office of CFO and then I'm getting pushback from M, the data group or whatever the case is as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I mean, data, data teams are critical. So I think about the volume of data that's used every day in a big enterprise, it's absolutely huge. And so getting that right is critical. Um, what I've seen work well is when data teams are, uh, well established, they're partnering again, just like you would want to see an fpa. They're building an understanding of the business so that they can then use that to think about what data we actually need. Um, what standards will we set for data, how will we manage the quality, quality of data? Um, and another key attribute of really strong data teams is they explain in simple terms what their agenda is and how it works. So we might not need to know all of the mechanics if we're sitting in an FP and a role or a controller role. But we need to know just enough to work with that, uh, data team and leverage their expertise. So good data teams are able to explain that complexity and the different domain knowledge that they have to people who are not experts so that you just raise the level of understanding just enough so that you can partner. So that's what I would say for how it works, when it works well. And just like we said with Finance in general, you need data people to be there right at the start of the conversation because they're designing what it's going to look like at the end. Um, they need to be there at the start.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think it really comes down to, again, it's business partnering. We, you know, in finance, we're, if, if they're not fully folded into finance, we are a downstream customer of the data team. So we need to, um, be sure we have the partnering with them as, as just as we do with, with people who are downstream from us. You're already using AI for your FPA ChatGPT Claude Copilot, and they're incredible. But here's the thing. AI is only as good as the data you feed it. Right now you're getting confident sounding guesses that you'd never dream of presenting to your board. Now imagine typing a prompt and getting a board ready dashboard backed by your real numbers or a P and L that you'd stake your reputation on. Finance OS consolidates your erp, CRM, hris and spreadsheets into a governed data layer. Every AI output now accurate, governed, repeatable and auditable. Find out why nearly 2000 FPA teams run on Finance OS, with hundreds joining every week. Learn more at datarails.com financeos I was thinking about your work with Simon Frost, the procurement consultant. I know you, uh, you did a LinkedIn post on this and tell us a little bit about that collaboration. And um, I know you called out, you know, handful of uh, KPIs versus, like key KPIs versus that. So many you could track. Um, so I guess first tell me about your work with the procurement consultant and then let's get into the KPIs.

Speaker B: Yeah, so Simon's a guy. I met him actually. Uh, an investment banking networking event. So Julihan Loki run a Consumer Day in London. They do it in New York as well. So we were together there and we just connected over partnering. And he's been, uh, you know, a top consultant for a decade now. So he's got a lot of experience and we just realized that we could work together and help each other. So like we said earlier in this podcast, it's a combination of supporting each other and challenging each other. Um, but he's actually, he's taking his SEMA exams, so he's, he's a serious guy. He's really taking it seriously. For someone in procurement to be committing so much to understanding finance, I think is really, really strong. Um, and some of the conversations we're Having give me really helpful insights for how I sharpen my partnering with people outside of finance too. So we were talking about what's the difference between the P and L and the balance sheet, for example? And I was reaching for an analogy and thinking, uh, how can I explain this in a really clever way? And it was just getting in the way of the explanation. So in the end we just drafted, well, here they are side by side, here's what they're used for, here's how to interpret them. And we just made a post for LinkedIn, just really simplified. And we weren't trying to be clever, we were just trying to provide some clarity. And that was really well received, actually. Um, so I think there's an appetite there for finance to keep things simple and not always try and be too clever. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And I think in, in going further with that, um, and having those definitions and working with the, with the other groups, you're able to really drill down and understand what's important to them. We're measuring this. What are those key levers? Talk about the, you know, 30 metrics you could track and how you really narrowed in on the six or seven that actually are impactful. What, you know, what are those critical few and how do you decide what matters versus what's just noise out there?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, this was another conversation I had with Simon, actually. So we, we listed 30 KPIs and said, of course they're all important and depending on your business context, where you're up to in the cycle, you'll look at different things. Of course, we isolated six or seven to look at and say if, if you could only look at these or what would be the most critical to look at? I won't list them all, Glenn, but in short, we looked at, you know, what's the. You need to have an understanding of revenue growth. And typically we would drill into that as all your FP and a audience would, to look at volume and price and mix dynamics. Then we'd look at at least one profitability metric, probably more than one, to really understand the health of the business and what's the trajectory there. And then where I find people outside of finance spend less of their attention is on cash and capital intensity. So that's the other kind of component that I would make sure my teams were looking at. And business leaders that, um, I'm working with would put their attention there because cash really is the reality of a business and understanding where capital is allocated. What's the intensity of running your business? What's Required, Um, that's really critical to survival. Not, um, just kind of day to day performance, but day to day survival. So those are the things that I always come back to. Um, but of course it's context specific and depending on the business, you might be looking more at leading, uh, KPIs and leading indicators where you're just getting going. So when I was establishing my own business as an independent, I didn't have any revenue, so I was looking at leading indicators. You know, what was my network, what were the leads I was generating? And you start to build up and your context changes, your metrics need to change too.

Speaker A: Yeah. And as you were talking that I keep going back to, you mentioned, you know, cash is king. And I kept going. I was trying to come up with a clever Verne Harnish quote to drop in, but I, I couldn't think of anything beyond cash is king. And I think I work. When I have worked with small businesses, it's interesting, the ones that do track their P and L every month, a lot of times it's easy to mistake that for your cash flow. And unless you like going back to the balance sheet and looking at the uses of cash and not to mention all the accruals and things that go in that show, how it's not actually your cash flow. But that is an important area to cover. And I think, well, regardless of business size, obviously because of solvency. But I, um, think another. It was either in that article we were talking, uh, before the show, you mentioned that you can't just measure one thing because if you're hyper focused, maybe it is just cash, but, um, or whatever, you know, if it's ebitda, whatever your number is, if you're just focused on one thing, you'll create unintended consequences.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: And I guess this maybe goes back to what you were just saying, but how do you think about building the right balance of metrics so you're not incentivizing the wrong behaviors or taking your eye off the ball and having a blind spot?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think probably rule number one for me at least is that I would never just look at one KPI, I would always look at at least two. So one to counterbalance the other. So if I'm looking at revenue growth, I'll look at profitability and of course I'll look at more than two things, but I would never just look at one. I was talking to, uh, a smaller business recently and it's very early stage, very fast growth, and they were trying to convince me that they were just looking at one metric and I got a little bit spooked because for me that's very much alien. You know, I would never look at one thing. Their business context means that one thing is more important than the other metrics they're looking at right now. They're well funded, they've got good cash Runway, so they're less focused on cash in the immediate term. And for them it was all about growth. So it is context dependent. But at least 99 times out of 100 I'd be looking at at least two metrics, one to counterbalance, another because uh, otherwise you're incentivizing all of the employees to focus just on one thing. And it may be that there are unintended consequences of that, that another metric can help you to counterbalance.

Speaker A: Um, so let's talk about that context. You mentioned being in a startup situation where you're only measuring one metric or whatever. So there is different context. Whether you're in a high growth startup or a turnaround situation, or maybe a business that's preparing for exit, they're going to have very different goals and they all need to look at different things. So from now especially that you're in this consulting role, how does FP and A add value? By helping leaders understand what matters most in that specific context? Because it is very different if you're at the early stages of a business versus trying to get the EBITDA to look best before an exit or whatever.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So for me, I mean, FP and A is helping to make sure the business is focused on the right things. So one of the ways I've seen it described is that your, your business, your leadership team is, is the head and FP and A is the neck because FP and A is showing that team where to look. So really, FP and A helping. What's the context we're operating in? What's the strategy that we're executing against and what does that mean for where do we focus? So what do we put our attention on? And that can be showing up in what KPIs we look at, but also what processes we need to improve. So do we need to get really, really sharp on forecasting or planning? Do we need to get better at margin analysis? It depends on the context. Um, there might be a major focus on cash optimization, but it starts really with context and FP and A helping to translate that into what's the right focus.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's so key. And I know before the show we were also Talking about mentoring young professionals early in their career. And, uh, we talked about a couple things there that I want to hit on, because I do. I like to get back to the basics of this show and just, you know, lessons learned from those of us who've been doing this a while. And I loved what you said. When you mentor finance professionals, you're looking for three things of judgment, drive, and influence. So. And you also noted that assuming, uh, you know, for that, that drive is a given for most people in fpa, how do you then, how does someone build that judgment and influence? Especially before you're in the leadership role? It's kind of a chicken and egg situation. So, um, if you had a junior analyst or someone earlier in their career sitting down with you now, how would you guide them on that?

Speaker B: Yeah, so probably take each one in turn. And I do think drive is a given in FP&A. I don't think you can work in FP&A and not work hard and drive for results. The kind of the whole heart of being an fpa. So starting with judgment, I would say that shows up in quality decision making. So regardless of seniority, I think we can be building that muscle by building our understanding of the business, the sector we're in, making sure we've got a strong perspective, a strategic view of things, um, so that we can make better decisions. And seeking accountability for decision making at an early stage, I think is key, too. So making sure you've got the trust of those around you to make decisions yourself, the earlier the better. As long as you're bringing that strength of perspective, bringing data to make decisions, and then for judgment, for me, that's much more about human relationships and trust. Um, and so again, back to partnering. You know, the best way to build trust is to be clear about what you're trying to achieve and to show up with that transparency and to show up as a partner looking for common ground, looking for shared goals, and then contracting to say, look, I will challenge you as a business partner and our support too. And so they know what to expect in working with you. And that gives you much more space to challenge quite hard, um, because you've set that expectation. Um, so those are some of the things you can do regardless of seniority. And I think those work very well together. So I do look for a balance of all three. Judgment, drive, and influence. Um, but influence could be across geographies. It could be across layers of a hierarchy. Um, so it's a muscle to start to practice, and we don't need to be in leadership roles to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess it's a matter of, especially earlier in your career, you want to build out those technical skills. And I think, uh, people that come into finance, I know we're reporting on stuff that we didn't necessarily do, but we take pride. It's equivalent to an engineer's mindset. And so especially early in the career, we're more excited about the super cool model that we built in Excel. Then you know what that numbers actually mean. Really, we're just about, look how cool this is. You put this is the input, it drives this and does all these things. And we get excited about the models just like an engineer gets excited about a project for building something. But I think the other part is, and I love what you talked about there because it's not about the technical skills, but I feel like you need to have that sort of technical foundation and understanding and sort of understand the inputs and the drivers that go. But how do you then advise people to make that shift? From being, especially with generative AI and all the automation tools that are out there now, you have to make that shift from being a pass through someone who transforms data into being a true strategic partner who can influence, uh, decision.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think if I had one word for the answer, it would be curiosity. So you've got to be curious, you've got to get out there and really think about what's the business trying to achieve and who are you partnering with to do it and then you can show up really as a partner, like we've discussed. I think we do get excited about the technical things in finance and I think that's pretty cool too. Um, but it's got to be something that we then use. So I would always be challenging my team to think about what impact it can have. Why are we looking at it that way and really thinking about the outcomes that we can drive, not just the tools that we use. I don't think that many people outside of finance would get too excited about the tools or the systems that we use, but what they used for and what they enable, they definitely would.

Speaker A: You know what, that's why I love this show though, because our audience does get a genuine. We're all the right, we're all the same kind of nerds. We all love, you know, comparing our models and talking about what we've done. But, um, yeah, this has been great and I think I just, I'm very excited to see where your story's going right now. And for like, I said at the beginning, we. I've talked to several people in a similar situation with you and I know several, many of our listeners fall in the same category. But if someone out there is listening and they're a senior finance leader at a big company and they're thinking, and I want to do my own thing, I want to, you know, make my mark in the world outside of this, what advice would you have to them for making the leap? And maybe some kind of. If, uh, you've got any insights on how the transition feels, and I know we touched on it a little bit at the beginning, but maybe as some kind of closing thoughts, uh, any advice or guidance you'd have for someone considering making a similar move?

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think it's down to individual choice and preference, isn't it? But I think look for what you're passionate about and look for where you can get good learning. So we can't just use an employer to be a place where we learn, but ultimately if we're adding value, it's still a place where we can learn along the way as well. And I had a great experience working for both Cadbury and Mars because they were really good businesses for developing people. So a lot of what I think I'm good at today is a function of having worked with some great people in some great organizations. So, so definitely wouldn't steer people away from working in those big enterprise roles. But yeah, working in a smaller business or starting up on your own is really exciting. It gives you a level of autonomy, huge amount of variety. And I'm learning stuff that I've never had to even think about before. So we talked a bit about selling. I'm having to go out and sell. That's something that's completely new to me. I've developed a pretty simple website, but I did it myself. Um, and it wasn't something that I wanted to invest a lot of money behind. So I just did. Invested a bit of my time and learned a few skills along the way. So the variety of work for me is really exciting. I think my advice is to follow your passions, but also to think about how you can continue to learn along the way. So I've got plenty that I still need to work on and being independent now is giving me a lot to think about and work on. And so I feel quite stretched, actually, in a really good way.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's great, that's. And I, I can, uh, empathize with you on, on all fronts there. So rooting for you and wishing you the, the best of luck with the new business. Okay, so we are getting, uh, close on time, but we have our standard questions. I think I, I prepped you for this a little before the show, but the first is, um, what is something that not many people know about you that they couldn't learn just by looking at your LinkedIn or social media profile?

Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe for those who've, uh, viewed this podcast, they would probably see I'm quite calm and measured, but I'm also really decisive. So one thing that this audience won't know is that I actually proposed to my wife within just a few weeks of us being together. And we actually got married one year after our first date. So to the day. So I can be pretty decisive when I want to be. As long as the data's to going good.

Speaker A: I love that. I love that. That's good though. That shows you've, uh, evaluated the data, made the decision, go ahead and commit, move forward. That's perfect. Um, okay, everyone's favorite question. What is your favorite Excel function and why?

Speaker B: Mine is just a simple Vlookup. I just find it speeds me up. I can set it up, make sure I've got precision. I can rely on what I'm looking at, but it's pretty basic. I don't spend my life in Excel, but I still love a little bit of a play around every now and again.

Speaker A: Yeah. So that's me too. And, uh, Vlookup, when I was a guest on the show before I was the host, that was my answer to. And someone said, well, you've just dated yourself with Vlookup because of everything that's come beyond. But, uh, yeah, I'm, uh, you know, uh, fortunately was in a career position where, uh, in a leadership role. I was the recipient of spreadsheets for a lot longer than I was the builder of them. So Vlookup is still a go to for me. No, that's great answer. Great insights just across the board on the show. And uh, before I let you go, uh, especially with the new business, how can our listeners. And I know you've been active on LinkedIn too, and we'll put your LinkedIn profile, uh, in the show notes and all that. But how can our listeners connect with you to learn more about you and your work?

Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you, gwen. Yeah, so LinkedIn's definitely the best place to start. So I'm getting more active there. It's been, been good for me to get back out there. I'm connecting with a lot of different people. Um, I've got a website as well, which is www.cmstrategies.co.uk. um, so that's worth a look. It's one I built myself, so don't criticize it too much when you have a look, but it's there and should give you a sense of the work I'm doing. And one theme is that I'm really enjoying the different partnerships that I'm finding. So, you know, we talked about Simon in procurement before, but there's multiple people that I'm working with who don't have the same background as me in finance, and that's given me a huge amount of energy. So whether it's people on this podcast or more broadly, I'm definitely up for the conversation. Um, and at the moment, I'm just finding lots of different things to explore, which has been really energizing. So thank you for this as well. It's. Maybe I should add this to my list of things that I'm working on is a, uh, bit of podcast action. But I appreciate it better. It's been great.

Speaker A: Colin, thanks so much.