277. First 100 Days as a CFO: The Career Strategies Every New CFO Needs to Know with John Lees

Speaker A: Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, managing director of itas, a financial transformation consultancy, as she invests interviews key experts to give you real world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and Data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. With me today, and I'm very excited to announce is M. Mr. John Leeds. So John is a career strategist, um, and as I found out very, very recently has actually authored 15 books on Korea and how to advance. Um, so I'm very excited to have you here on the show, John. Thank you for joining me, Hannah.

Speaker B: Um, it's a great delight. Looking forward to the conversation.

Speaker A: And so this is part of our series on how to start off that new CFO role on the Right Fit. So let's just start with the top level. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you think people, people make, John, in their first sort of 90 to 100 days, where can you make that, ah, go wrong?

Speaker B: It's really important, isn't it? Sometimes people wonder, well, what is it about this magic 90 or 100 days? And it's really, it's long enough for people to make a decision about whether hiring you was a good idea. And that's, that's the bottom line really. So it's a window of opportunity to shape your reputation and to start to get some traction inside an organization. Um, biggest mistakes I think, uh, are probably, we'll talk more about this, but it's probably about getting the balance wrong between saying that you're there to learn and saying that you're there to deliver. Um, I think the second thing would be to you're still in sort of selection mode. You're still trying to impress people as you were in the selection process and that doesn't work quite so well when you arrive. And I think the third one is not recognizing the kind of people you need to work with. Um, so again, we'll talk about that as well in terms of spotting the people who will be most helpful to you and the people who may just get in your way just a little bit.

Speaker A: So let's talk about that because that's an interesting piece. What should you be looking out for in terms of those people of influence when you're first starting a role.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think I'd preface that by saying that people who seem to do well in new roles. Now, what do I mean by that? Well, uh, let's preface a lot of this by saying, uh, as a career coach, I spend a lot of time helping people change career or find new roles. But if I'm lucky, I also get to help people manage their careers and to manage landing inside a new organization. So what, uh, I, uh, can recognize as one of the things that goes relatively well is where people know how to check in fairly quickly. And there's an art to that because you can't sound as if you know nothing at all. And this is all new to me and, you know, I'm a kind of innocent babe in the woods here. But you can't sound as if you know everything either. So that's what I meant by the difference between being in selection mode, where you're just trying to impress people all the time and get a job offer, and those people selecting you are not necessarily the people you're going to be working alongside. So there's something there about checking in with people quite early. And I always think the best thing to do is to show kind of informed curiosity. So informed curiosity is a good phrase, I think, which says you've done your homework, you know what the key drivers are at the organization, but you're not going to start telling people how to solve every problem in the universe in the first few days. You really are going to check in and listen and learn. And a great tip for that is show an interest in the jobs that people do. Show an interest in what problems they experience, what they get out of their roles, what they find most exciting and interesting. And that's usually the, the leverage because it sounds as if, you know, it's a great way of building relationships as well. And you do learn quickly.

Speaker A: And you mentioned obviously, uh, the people that you're working with may not be the people that selected you originally. How do you categorize the people that you should check in with in that first sort of hundred days? Are there, like, groups of individuals that you should be looking out for?

Speaker B: Well, I guess the first group grouping is fairly obvious in terms of direct colleagues. And I always think, as I said, best kind of questions, uh, are, what's not so much what do you do? Because that sounds naive, doesn't it? But what gets in the way of progress for you? What are your biggest headaches? What are your biggest challenges? Um, what will I be doing that makes your Life easier. Those are great questions, I think. Um, and then beyond that, and one of the art of checking in with people is to keep saying, who else do I need to talk to? Who should I have a check in conversation with? And again, um, learning the kind of people that are going to be helpful to you and not so helpful. So, um, as you know, I've written a book about this. So one of the things in the book that talks about, um, the different categories of people. So you will get enablers, you will get people who will be happy and motivated to do things for you. They'll open doors, they'll give you key pieces of information. Um, there will be, um, as you develop and as you grow, but certainly within the first three months you starting to develop people who are going to be advocates for you, they're going to be, uh, mentioning your name and pushing you forward for things. Uh, but there can be blockers as well. There can be people that, um, get in the way in the sense of not giving you the information you need or not meeting the deadlines that work for you, uh, or people whose toes you're treading on. So that's another really important, uh, factor, if you like, is to understand where your job fits in emotionally and psychologically. So whose toes are you treading on? Particularly if there's somebody that applied for the job internally and didn't get it, uh, or there's somebody that perhaps you're managing and they feel they've got more experience than you. So it's a sort of sensitive and careful but fairly rapid check in. So you see how it's nuanced. You've got to do things sensitively, but you've really got to get on with it fairly quickly as well.

Speaker A: Those sort of senior stakeholders. You know, as a cfo, you're obviously working directly with the CEO, you're working with a board. You know, what, what's your thoughts on how best to engage with them at that, uh, early doors stage?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, again, I think people in similar roles that I've helped over the years, what they tend to do is to not only work out the drivers of the organization, and that's the key thing for cfo, isn't it? It's not just what the numbers mean, but also what the key drivers are and then at the same time working out what really matters to the key people around you. And that's quite a broad spectrum thing really matters. You could say it's just about profitability or about results, but often it isn't. Sometimes it's about the way they look, it's about their reputation, it's about their image, uh, it's about their pet projects. So what you will be able to bring that will enable them to start something new. Uh, it's about the things that are going wrong. So I always say when you're looking at an organization as a newcomer, you're looking for opportunities and headaches. So what can go well and what isn't going well? Because there's something that's going on which could be internal or external. So again, I'm going to stick with that phrase, organized, informed curiosity, because it's a good way of saying I know quite a lot about this organization already, but I'd love to hear your perspective. Where do you think we can be, uh, in 12 months time? How am I going to fit in? How can I be most useful? I will say something about that because again, that's not a naive statement. It's really being able to say when you need to say it. Uh, I've got experience, I've done things before. This is something I've done which might be useful here. Which again is a good phrase to use. Um, so that you're not. I think the worst thing at that senior level is that sense of you don't really understand us yet and you really don't want to be doing that. Even in the first 24 hours in an organization, you should look as if you understand and you just ask, uh, great questions.

Speaker A: There's an implication there that you're coming into that day one with a certain level of knowledge. What questions would you ask before you even start the role to make sure that you can be that sort of have that informed curiosity?

Speaker B: Well, I think it goes back into the selection process. You know, even if you've been headhunted, you know, um, and this is really a sort of career management tip really is that you should be doing due diligence on an organization at this level. And um, what do I mean by that? Well, I don't mean the kind of diligence that you'd use if it was a buyout or something like that, but I would say as if you were investing your own money in the organization. So the whole idea that you turn up on day one, you don't know enough yet, I would find that very worrying because you should know enough about the organization to present as a really suitable candidate really early in the process. And then the second, the next really important thing to know when you start a job is why are you hired now? I Know that sounds sort of naive and almost like a dumb thing to say, but it isn't because it's. Let's break it down. What are the characteristics? What are the experience? What's the skill set that you have, the people, uh, made this decision around and therefore that they've already bought into? Now if you know that and you should be able to decode that from the process, then you also know the things that you could start to talk about on day one.

Speaker A: I think that's a really good and good tipping because even if you ask them what was it about my interview or my CV that really, that made me, you think I was the right fit for the role? Because that will give you a guide as to what, I guess what their priorities, what were they actually for? What was the unsaid problem that perhaps they haven't been as open as you would like about what they're looking for you to solve.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, and again, if somebody's going through a process, uh, it's really a misunderstanding I think about job interviews that it's that people kind of interview both ways. It's not really true. If you're up for a role, what you're trying to do is get a job offer out of an organization. You're not asking 100 questions. But what you can do sometimes is, well, two things really. One is you can ask in the process itself, how is the job going to change for me, what opportunities are there going to be in the first 12 months, uh, what's the plan look like and how do I fit into it? So in other words, what you're doing is putting a marker down that says this is what the first hundred days might look like. And the second thing there is about, um, yeah, it's about remembering that you can always check in again. So you get offered a job when you start, let's say three months later, do your due diligence before you sign the contract and uh, you don't have to know everything about the organization. But certainly people I've worked with, they tend to say, well, I'm just going to take at least a week to talk to people I know in the sector. Uh, um, understand what's the staff turnover in this organization? What happened to the last person who did this role? Um, what's this organization really doing? So the big misunderstanding is that you can do all that in an interview process. You really can't without sounding very negative. So what I'm really saying is, um, I suppose strong candidates owe it to themselves to have a Pretty good understanding of the organization's needs and why they've been hired as they turn up on day one.

Speaker A: Um, obviously every organization has their own culture, their own way of working. Like, how do you almost align yourself with that new culture? And, um, I guess what questions should you be asking pre those 90 days to understand that culture better?

Speaker B: Well, some interview coaches would say, you ask the question in the interview. I'm not a big fan of that because you're never going to get an honest answer. To be cynical, why would you? If you and I were hiring Hannah and we had a brilliant candidate in front of us, we're not going to say to that candidate, well, listen, culturally we've got a few problem. We're not as good as we could be. You want people to say yes, don't you? So look, um, how do you. Yeah, I mean, to me that you make a really good point there. That's an important part of discovering the things that you need to know about the organization. So if I've got somebody that's holding a job offer, ah, Even if they're really keen on it, I'll say, well, just check it. Check around. Talk to anybody, you know who knows the organization well or used to work there. And the key questions are, what are they really looking for? Which is an interesting one, isn't it? Because it's sort of a real assumption that job descriptions don't quite capture everything. And the second is, what are they like? Uh, if every organization is a personality, what is this organization like? But I have to say, a real shortcut to that is turnover. It's really interesting. Organizations where people stay and seem to be relatively happy are generally okay organizations. They may not be perfect, but organizations which, you know, the red flags, ah, are they've just been acquired by another organization. They're going through restructure. This is the seventh restructure they've had. Uh, you know, this post holder has changed three times in five years. So yeah, there are markers around and it doesn't necessarily mean they are red flags, but it means that perhaps you would give careful consideration or have another conversation about expectations before putting ink on paper. Or if you know that you're going to have to take this role or it's the best career option for you, then at least you know what you're looking for when you arrive. And of course, then the questions there are, uh, subtle, aren't they? Because you're not really saying what's wrong with the organizational culture. What aren't you telling me? You can't answer that. But you can check in with a range of people now by asking people what's, um, what's on your plate at the moment? What do you really enjoy? What gets in the way of progress for you? I love that question. What gets in the way of progress? People tell you the obstacles. Now the obstacles are things like this, a silo mentality in the organization. Um, I never get information I need. Um, we're competing with other parts of the organization. You know, those are the sort of clues that come out when you ask people about their jobs and what they're doing and what they, um, what they sort of workload is like and their frustrations and as well as their excitements. Then you get a lot of solid clues about culture, which are really different, aren't they, to general perceptions about. And it's a nice place to work for. It's not, not a great place. That doesn't tell you very much.

Speaker A: Yeah. And one of the things I love to do is have people come in because I, I do. I know in the world of co. After post Covid, everything's so online, you know, and we do huge amount of interviewing online. But I do think as, you know, both as somebody that wants people to understand culture and also somebody that goes out and sees the culture. As a consultant back in the day, you can walk in and get a feel for a place pretty quickly. You know, you can see the dynamics. You know, that for me is really important is actually getting eyes on what, what, what does the day look like within the organization, what does the office look like, feel like. And, and that can often for me be a big indicator. I'm like, okay, you know, how they're dressed, how they interact with each other, I find fascinating.

Speaker B: You're absolutely right. Yeah. I mean, in so many different industries, people say that, don't they? They say you only need to spend 10 minutes in the organization and you've got a feeling how you welcome now. So here's another tip. While you're processing a job offer, ask for a chance to go and talk to people. Go and have a chat with your colleagues. Um, you know, you still haven't signed anything. And now that sounds Machiavellian, but it really isn't. It's about am I? And honestly a good fit. So checking in quite early, it gives you that sort of smell, doesn't it? That sense of what is it really like? And because you are probably talking to the people that you will be spending most time with in the future job, uh, I mean, I know Some that's not necessarily true. At CFO level, you're probably going to be spending a lot of time with the most senior colleagues, but, uh, it's still good to know what's facing you, really. So, yeah, that's another way into this is to make sure that none of this is a shock. Because what I'll share with you, Hannah, is that where I'm getting a phone call that says, hey, John, I took that job and it really isn't working out for me. It's because people haven't done any of these things. They've kind of been seduced by a job offer. Uh, they've gone in without doing any thinking or research at all, and it's not working and they're going to be out soon. Um, and that really matters because if you've got a bump like that on your cv, it's a difficult thing to get around. It's not impossible, but it's difficult.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the interesting piece here is what I'm hearing, that actually a successful first 90 days starts with the work before the 90 days. It's about making sure we got the right role, that we not even. We're not looking for perfection. It's about understanding what you're stepping into. Uh, I think is what you're saying there.

Speaker B: I am. So a good analogy is if you were just selling your services as an external consultant, you wouldn't turn up and say on the first day where you're working on the premises and say, okay, what do you do here? You'd be. You do really good homework, wouldn't you turn up with your analysis, you turn up with, uh, some of the work already started. You turn up with your key questions, list of things you need to know, list of things you need to talk to. It's got to be along those lines, I think, at this level, because as I say, a really good mindset thing is to say, imagine you were putting your own money into this organization. What questions would you ask then?

Speaker A: And then, obviously, you've got a range of stakeholders that you're dealing with. A cfo, you've got near the upwards management, you've got the board, you've got CEO, uh, you've got your peers, you've got your, your team as well that you're working with. You know, how do you build that, uh, sort of those relationships quickly because, you know, you want to make an impact the first 90 days. But we all know that, you know, people are a big part of driving any kind of change and impact so, so how do you build trust? Uh, have you got any?

Speaker B: Well, it's vitally important. You're right. And I think it depends on your own personal working style. Some people are really good at reading other people and um, instinctively know what they need instinctively. So a good contrast is, am I working with somebody that likes information in advance or can I be impromptu? Can I just throw in an idea in the middle of a conversation? Um, how do these people typically react when they're really busy? Now some people are really good at reading that. Uh, it's good to say that. I would say a good 50% of the people I work with at this level are not that good at doing that. So what they tend to do through a bit of planning is to check in with people around these kind of power figures. And this is where people almost at any level in the organization can be really helpful. They'll tell you the best way to, to um, handle difficult conversations with key people. Um, particularly you know, the CEO is, uh, pa. People like that, you know that they can be incredibly helpful to you if you're nice to them and you ask intelligent and uh, curious questions and ask about their workload as well. Because when people are respected for their contribution, they tend to think, okay, well this is great conversation. Uh, I'm happy to be helpful. So yeah, it's checking. I mean I remember one organization I worked with and one of the best people to talk to every day was the guy on the security desk because he knew everything that was going on. He knew who was in the building, he knew who was grumpy and who wasn't grumpy.

Speaker A: Should I have a meeting with this person today?

Speaker B: Exactly. That's the sort of.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, so it's, yeah, so I guess have the self awareness to say how good is your own radar? And if you're, if you're thinking, thinking I don't really understand what this person's looking for. And then check in with others who work with them regularly, uh, in a non critical way. So you don't say, I'm finding this person difficult. Just saying, um, I'm working with somebody really busy. I'm just wondering the best way to present ideas and information or um, best way to get quality time in this person's diary and so on.

Speaker A: Yeah, and, and I guess that's, you know, that's the challenge, isn't it? As, as a, as a senior individual, a lot of the time you're wanting time with other senior individuals. How do you maximize that peer to peer relationship? What should you be thinking about when working across the C suite in terms of how you work with, um, other senior execs within the business, what you need to think about there?

Speaker B: It's a really good question, penetrating question. Maybe it is about relationships. It's about trust, those words that we've used. But those words are very easy to use, aren't they? So sometimes relationships, um, can be built on, um. Well, it's sort of about inputs and outputs. What I mean by that is, um, the input is what you can learn and what you can learn from their expertise and their, ah, certainly in the first 30 days, let's say, you know, you can be saying a lot. I'd be grateful for your insight into this or how would you like this to be shaped? And those sort of questions, um, and the output bits are about choosing those moments, I think, to contribute now. So what I mean by that is. Well, let me take the extreme of that. The extreme of that, and I have seen this go badly wrong is people almost get their ego too flattered, uh, in its selection process and they turn up and they think that they are the best thing since sliced bread and they want to change everything overnight and all of their ideas. Now that's probably not going to work unless you're specifically hired to be a completely aggressive new broom, which is quite rare. So it's. What I'm really trying to say is it's choosing those moments to offer your expertise. Uh, and sometimes all you need to do is to say, yeah, I'll deal with that, that's fine. And sometimes you need to explain it. Sometimes you need to sell the idea. Uh, sometimes it's a good idea, as I said earlier, just to say, well, this is something I've worked with before. This is an approach I've taken in the past. M. Perhaps that would be helpful here. Let's give that a go. And it's really about understanding how much you are involved as a contributor, uh, and how much you're involved as a real partner, uh, on how much you're a functionary now. You know, sometimes when you, if you're working with senior people in a really busy time of year or when they're in a small crisis, sometimes what you could do is listen, ah, fast and act fast. You know, there's kind of no, um, there's no avoiding that one really. But it's also spotting where there are good moments to check in. Checking in is quite important, I think, because it's really trying to understand or trying to get back to that conversation. About you and I, I think we know why you hired me, but let's check in to make sure that I'm giving you the things that you were hoping for. Um, and you don't do that immediately because you've got to have some sense of getting that you've already started to establish a reputation of somebody to get things done and that's quite important. So you know, there's a lot to be said for quick wins and getting involved in things where you can show you can make a difference. Um, but a fairly early check in, light touch check in to say how are things going from your perspective is a good idea because you don't want to be at that 90 day point where you're perceived by many people in the organization, uh, as a, as a disappointment or as an imposter.

Speaker A: Yeah, so, so what we're saying is it's first be really clear on what could looks like, why were you brought on, what they're wanting from you. And then I guess like you say, those sort of those check ins at uh, 30, 60 days going, yeah, like am I, am I on track? Are we where you expected me to be? You know, what needs to be, what am I missing? What else do I need to address that perhaps I've not got to yet.

Speaker B: That's a reasonable broad framework for doing this. Um, two factors I think can get in the way of that. One is that it's simply to do with work pressure. I mean I've got a number of times somebody said to me, well, I really want to have that checking conversation, but I can't find the time in my boss's diary. Um, in which case what you do sometimes doing is well, in checking with other people that matter as well. And the other one is where now this is the important thing. I thought we hope we'd get to this where you're hired to make a change happen. Now that's a really important one because that's one way you've got to check in most carefully. So you're hired to make change happen and it could be. So this is where it's useful to know what the last person in post did. Did they start that change? Did they fail to make that change happen? The other really important check in is where is this in terms of um, the scope of the project? Is this still at the idea stage? And is your, is the CEO of the board really behind this? And that's to be honest, I would say you need to know that before you accept the job. But it's a Common scenario in the fast changing world of work where people are changed to make, sorry, people are hired to make change happen. And one of the biggest frustrations and the reasons for careers going off track is that organizations don't really mean it, they don't believe in it. There's no investment, psychological investment in that change. Therefore, well, how are you going to manage that? And there are ways of managing it. You can do something incremental, you can do a pilot study, you can soften it, uh, you can reduce the risk yourself. But I think that's a really good example of where checking in against the expectations of why you're hired, the job you're supposed to be doing against what's actually possible is a really important thing to do.

Speaker A: And I guess that's the piece around change. And obviously with what we do, um, working in technology, we come a lot of leaders that have been brought on board to drive change, change in systems, processes, people, all sorts of, they're going on a genuine transformation journey. What advice would you give somebody about assessing the pace of change, like how quickly should they be pushing through these changes? Because like you said, it could be uh, like idea stage, they're coming in like right, we were going into selection stage now and, and so how do you, I guess what questions would be asking to find the balance about should I be making this, this? Because you'll have some people making that want it and I want it yesterday. And then you've got an entire team that sit here going, we're not ready, we don't have capacity.

Speaker B: Yep. Well, so let's assume you've done some of that, you've accepted the role and you reset the role, warts and all, if you like. Um, yeah, checking with the people who think this is a wonderful idea is a good thing. So, and going deeper on that. So why is it a great idea? What are the benefits here and what are the obstacles? Uh, where are we in the moment? So that's the important thing because if senior people are behind the idea and change has already started, then you've probably got a fairly good chance that you're going to have something good to put on your cv. If it's still an idea in somebody's mind and um, several key players in the organization have not bought into this yet, then you've got a challenge on your hand. And as I mentioned a second ago, there are things you can do. It's not a disaster, you can just look at part of it, but it's just checking by in and looking at People who are naturally going to be sabotaging this as well, to be honest, because we talked about blockers and enablers and there are saboteurs as well. There really are. But it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? Because, uh, I agree with you. Almost every organization that you could find out there is either restructuring or they're changing the way they work, or they're bringing in new technology or they're doing something radical. Um, and yet it's about really saying, well, who's a champion of this? Who's really on board and who's going to slow us down? And, um, and often it's about really checking in with people about the impact this change will have on their work. And sometimes I think good CFO can do some groundwork to say, yeah, this is something we're going to work through together. It will give us a headache initially, but in the long term the benefits are, uh, extensive. So it's the hearts and mind stuff going on. And I always like to see people in key financial roles like this. They're not just good at sort of managing the numbers and holding the levers of power, if you like. They've got enough people skills to be able to bring people along with them as well. Uh, so that can be a really useful contribution they can make.

Speaker A: And I guess finance is specific for this in that I think very often things can be uncovered once you get into the numbers. Right. So, you know, once you actually start looking at that balance sheet, you start digging into what's actually happening operationally, you're likely to find some interesting things. Right. You got any tips for having those difficult conversations early on? Um, because, you know, a couple of days, you know, days in, you may not have had the, the. What's the word? The, the tenure to really establish trust. And then you've got to go straight into perhaps a difficult conversation about what's going on in the organization. So what have you got for anybody on that particular scenario?

Speaker B: I like your word interesting. Discovering interesting. I know what you mean. Um, in an ideal world, this wouldn't be a complete shock to you on the first day that you turn up at work. It really shouldn't be. Go back to my analogy. If you were putting your own money in, you'd be asking other kinds of questions. Questions, let me put it that way. But in a scenario where, I mean, it is quite. If it really is a, ah, scenario where information has not been disclosed to you properly or the numbers don't smell right, then that might be a time to make sure you've got a good external coach and a good mentor and think about how do I make this work and what's my exit plan. Um, but in a more pliable situation where maybe the numbers are not great, but it's a fairly typical kind of massaging of information, then I think we talked about the kind of people you're checking in with early. There's always people around in the financial functions who actually know where information sits properly and they know what the true numbers are and they know what, um, the underlying reality is. And those are people that you want to get on board really fast. So let's be clear about what I mean by getting on board with them. I mean, establishing trusts make it clear that you're not going to be treading on their toes, you're not going to make their life hell, um, that you're really interested in their opinion and their knowledge and their experience. You're coming to them for their expertise as well. So once you start to build that kind of relationship, then people tell you what the underlying reality is. And I guess that's what we're really talking about, about here is the difference between, um, the way information can be presented, uh, on balance sheets and so on, and the underlying reality in terms of what's really going on and where the organization is heading. So it's just kind of internal benchmark, I know that people have, is to say, well, um, if we carry on like this, what happens? Which is one of the great questions, because then you sort of starting to understand what happens in terms of cash flow or the shape of the business and the health of the business? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: You know, obviously you've had lots of conversations over the years with people going through that first sort of 90 to 100 day periods. What, what do you think of that, senior level? Are, uh, some of the, the biggest mistakes that people make in terms of, you know, are there any stories you can share about things that people wish they knew before they got into it or things that they wish they'd done once they started the role that perhaps they didn't?

Speaker B: Well, let's have a thing. I mean, things that wish they'd done. Yes, I think they wish. A lot of people say, I wish I'd done a bit more due diligence myself. Yeah, I wish I hadn't believed the promises made at, uh, interview, and particularly where external recruiters are involved. I don't want to be rude to anybody about this, but sometimes a, uh, rosy picture is created about a role. And just hearing you Know you're perfect for the role. When can you start? Isn't enough. You know, you should be saying, what am I really required to do? Uh, what's the job really about? What does good look like? What sort of results am I going to have to achieve within 90 days? So that would be the first thing. I think the second thing would be always about personality. Yeah, that's the first thing actually came to mind was, uh, thinking again at this level, thinking typically of people going into, let's say, more technical roles at, uh, board level, whether that's finance or HR or anything like that. What they often haven't done quite right is understand the strength and the influence of key personalities in the organization. Because if you are working for a narcissist, for example, if you're working for somebody senior who's really difficult to work work with, uh, and has a bubble around them, a bubble of ego so that they don't really hear information, then that's probably not going to change. Uh, that may be bad news for some people listening to this, but in my experience it's very, very hard to deal with because, uh, it's very difficult to, um, make that change happen. To do anything about that. That there are some strategies around building alliances and getting information from other people and presenting things in the way that is most effective for that personality type. But I guess when I've got somebody, which is, I think what you're hinting at, I've got somebody who's started a job, they're 90 days in and they're saying to me, john, I'm not going to be here for the rest of the year. By the next Christmas I'm going to be out of here, is usually to do with personality. So I would say spend as much time listening about, finding out, about checking in with even people outside the organization to learn something about the personality of the key players involved, um, than you do almost anything else. Because the technical stuff you can do, let's face it, um, most the job

Speaker A: you can do without having the technical.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So that's why it's interesting, isn't it? People worry about the skills that they're going to take with them and the knowledge, but they've probably got the skills and knowledge. It's the ability to work with particular contexts and particular people that they have to deal with. So, yeah, I would say check in early, um, ideally before you start, ideally before you say yes to anybody that really understands, um, the management style, if you like. And, and I don't mean that in vague terms, I really do mean look at the key decision makers and um, how they operate. And usually a great deal of that is evident from the track record of the organization going back over two or three years. Um, if it's something that it's an organization that's constantly reinventing itself or coming up with new initiatives that don't seem to work very well, um, it's usually an indication that there's not a really solid uh, leadership base in there.

Speaker A: And very aware that, you know, um, and we're ah, pretty much out almost out of time now and this has been a great conversation, John, but I guess what are your final sort of top tips to a successful first 90 to 100 days?

Speaker B: Okay, land, um, quickly but carefully. So it's finding the right balance between this is all new to me and I'm here to learn. People who just turn up and say I'm here to learn. That's not strong enough because you're not there to learn, you're there to give something. But on the other hand, at the end of the spectrum, if it's, I'm, um, here, all your problems are solved, that's not going to work either because you are going to tread on so many toes. So checking with your own reputation, this is the important thing I want to get across here now is that you start with a reputation that's formed in some ways during the selection process from the way you present as a candidate before you walk in the door on day one, people know something about you. Now, uh, you need to check in with that and find out what it is and maybe build on it or maybe adjust it. So understanding your starting reputation and doing something about the narrative, changing the narrative, if you like, pretty fast is probably one of the most powerful things you can do. Uh, and I guess what I'd also say, do your due diligence, your research and your checking in your understanding of organization at every stage of the process, even before the job interview, and carry on doing it as you arrive. And it doesn't guarantee a safe passage under all circumstances, but it's a pretty good start.

Speaker A: Well, thank you so much John for sharing your wealth of knowledge. And um, if people want to learn more about your, yourself and um, those 15 books that you have written, where is the best place to find you?

Speaker B: Well, if you just um, type into your search engine John Lees and careers, you get to my uh, website, which is johnnyscareers.com the book I've been talking about today is called get ahead in your new job which is specifically about those 90 to 100 days and covers, uh, a wide range of strategies. Uh, and yeah, and if you're interested in my books, well, what's the phrase? All good bookshops and everywhere that where you might be interested in buy a book.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, John. And um, for those that are interested, of course, as usual, we'll put, uh, the links to everything that John has mentioned there in the show notes. A big thank you to John for, for joining me today. And a big thank you to our listeners for, for, for, for joining us as well. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please do not forget to leave a review. Send me a message on LinkedIn, give me a comment. It's always great to understand what you've enjoyed need and what topics you would like to see in future. So thank you very much for listening to the CFO 4.0 podcast and the big thank you to John for joining me today.

Speaker B: Hey Google, what's the best accounting software for my business? Give it a couple of years and I bet you she'll be able to answer you pretty accurately. But for now, it's still one of the few questions Google can't give you an answer for. But we can take our free quiz and find out which Sage product is the right fit for your business. Just head to itasolutions.co.uk.