What HR teams could learn about Brand and Community with Lachlan Bradford

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the foundation series, your deep dive into startup compensation with industry leaders from across the startup world. Join me, Matt McFarlane, a people operations leader turned compensation specialist, as we uncover the strategies and practices driving success in tech startups around the world. Hear insights from heads of people, founders and experts as we explore how to build robust compensation frameworks that not only fuel growth and retention, but do so in the dynam startup environment that we

Speaker A: all know and love. Let's get into it.

Speaker C: 100%, man. And then I put the phone voice on and I'll give you the scripted crap. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Hello, listeners.

Speaker C: I still do that, man. I still do that. And I'm like, five years in, and I still. I feel like I. The first question I ask is always the worst because it's just stiff for some reason. I just, yeah, turn into something different.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I hear you. How. How's your podcast experience been? You've been doing it for, obviously much longer than me, but, like, you're still loving it. Like, what's. How are you finding it?

Speaker C: Oh, honestly, like, when me and Rob first started the, uh, Funny Business podcast back in 2020, it was, like, right at the start of the pandemic where we were just, like, freaking out, just about, obviously, everything going on. But then it was like, we need to channel this energy into something else where it's like, how do we be productive? You know, I feel like we've stressed enough. Like, I don't want. We don't want to worry twice. It's just like, things are going to happen, so what can we control and how can we get creative? And, you know, so we decided, like, let's, uh, you know, give ourselves a week to start a, uh, podcast. And, yeah, Rob's experience working, um, in agile delivery and things like that, uh, was kind of our angle at the start. And then that sort of just led to all different things, like product managers, athletes, and it was more just around being curious. You know, it was like, we meet people, they introduce us to other people. And I don't know, I think it really helped us being behind a screen at that time where, you know, it was real low effort. We could reach a lot of people. Um, and then. And then you start to think, all right, money, and, like, how do you grow this and turn this into something? And for us, it was never about, like, media at the start. It was more just around, all right, our consultancy and how do we use the podcast and leverage, you know, the networking connections and trust that we have, um, into our business and yeah, it was pretty crazy, wild times. And like, honestly, I love podcasts. Like listening and hearing people's stories. Like there's all different paths to success. So you know, it's, it's, it's awesome. I don't know about.

Speaker A: What about you, man.

Speaker C: Like, how have you found it since you started?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, same thing, I think. Um, yeah, gosh, there's, there's. I haven't had too much of a chance and I've had the feedback that um, that the in person podcast is a very different experience. I've done one as, as a guest and I found that really interesting. It's just like, like you said, I think podcasts are such a great way to just sit down and you know, pick a couple of topics, but just get to understand someone in their background and like, you know, some of the experiences which I think invariably help us, you know, navigate the, the same or the shared challenge or something like that. Um, but yeah, it's, it's um. I'm um, keen to one day m. I'm. I don't know if I can give up living in Pottsville, but I'll have to find a way to, you know, I'll be, I'll be one of those famous podcasters one day. It just shoots around the world and sets up these in person, uh, these in person conversations. Or maybe I'll do the Joe Rogan and people will come to me and I'll set up the ranch or something.

Speaker C: I don't know. Well, Pottsville does sound like a nice place. It sounds like a, uh, lot of greenery scenery and just like.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: How long have you been there for?

Speaker A: I've been here for a year. So I moved from Brisbane. Um, yeah, down south. It's very much been an experiment. We've just, we. So we lease to place or rented a place here for 12 months. We just hit renew for 12 months. So yeah, we're going to see, you know, how we go. We're finding the distance is fine. I mean it's easy to travel the Gold Coast. Airports is there. Um, Brisbane's easy to get back to you. But. Yeah, but Kathleen and I don't have clients in Brisbane and so they're all around Australia already anyway. All the world. And so, um. Yeah, I just feel like as terrible as Covid was, it obviously like rapidly moved us toward being able to do these sorts of things from a work or a solopreneur perspective. So um, that's at least one sort of silver lining around.

Speaker C: It's A tough one, isn't it? The work from home. Because I love it personally. And um, having that as an option and being treated as an adult I feel like is awesome. You know, it's like that trust and just be like, yep, you can do your job. And I think it only kind of works at a really good organization though. Uh, you know what I mean? Like if it's, if it, if things aren't working and then you've got all. And you can't really see what's going on, then I feel like, yeah, of course, lots of trouble there. But um, yeah, the mix of everything, it's like how do you balance it like with in person interactive stuff mixed in with online. So yeah, yeah, it's always been the, the battle, hasn't it? Like what?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Ah. And I was going to say it's a perfect seam for where I want to start, but you know, the awkward part of conversations because I feel like obviously I know you but I really want others to know you as well as I do. Um, but would you spend a minute just like giving you a bit of your background? Like, you know, I'd love to explore that. And now I can talk about why I've got this non HR person on a HR podcast.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, uh, my, my story, I don't know. I, uh. Every school I went to has eventually been knocked down. So I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. My first, my first job that's been knocked down, the Jetty Surf was turned into like a cafe at the Brody Shopping center there. So, um, I wasn't off to a good start, I'll say. But I think um, growing up in Jakarta, Broadmeadows, not um, really knowing what I wanted to do with my life, to be honest. I was just like happy, go lucky. Really love childhood. Um, yeah. And ambition wise I was just like, I don't know, I just kind of want to be happy. And now that I think about it now it's like, oh, that's probably where it lands again today. But it takes a while to get back to that. But yeah, I think like opportunity wise, I think my life really opened up uh, when I got selected into the Cedar Program, Cricket Victoria program, which was the second year it's ever ran. So cricket, uh, school basically so long left school in year 10. Didn't tell my parents, like just applied one night at like 11 o' clock at night. And then, and then 7am the next morning my mum got a call from the principal Just saying. Well, I've said it. Just saying, hey, would love to get locked in for an interview and stuff. And I was like, what, you want to leave school? And stuff. And I was so lucky that my parents had just, like, back me in, you know. So, um, they were just like, yeah, go do it. Cricket. Cricket, School cricket. Victoria. Um, you know, go see what it's like. Went there and just met all my best friends, um, from a different side of town kind of thing. So, um, yeah, really opened my eyes to kind of what was possible. And, um, yeah, that experience, like, training at the mcg, just being around people who love sport. And I think honestly what shaped me is, like, the teachers that I had there. Like, my first teacher there was a bloke named Ben Waterman, who's now the CEO of, um, the Resilience Project. So, um, someone like him really trying to, like, take a. An interest and really show care. And that was like, for me now looking back, it was like, that was the moment, you know, actually having leaders and cool people who we look up to. Um, like, he was my district cricket and stuff. He was friends with all the big cricketers. So we're all just like, you know, really looked up to him. And yeah, for him to just muck around with us and not take it life so serious, like, that was so different to school. And it, like, really felt understood. And then, uh, the next year, uh, had a, uh, guy named David MacKay, who's Clint McKay's brother, Australian cricketer. And he was cool too, in his own way. Like, his pathway into teaching, um, was a lot different. I think he allowed us to trust and flexibility and then, you know, just allowed us to form connections, um, and really grow. Like we were 16, 17 years old. And then the year after that, I had a guy named Mark Worthington, who's now the player development manager at Geelong Cats. And people talk about, like, the culture and why they've been so good for so long. Like, having firsthand experience around, like, how he treated us kids, um, back then, it's like, I understand why now, like, people are motivated to. To do good work and work as a team together, so. And why actually caring about the people is the most important part, you know, like, um, I don't know. So he does a lot of the, the. The outside work where people are, like, players are in their worst, you know, states that they'll probably ever be in, and he's someone there to really show care. He's got a big family. His whole family takes him in. So I think it's not just like, uh, words, it's like actions, you know, and just like, experiencing that and just sort of understanding that, you know, you can do things a little bit differently. I then was managing, um, I was working in, like, retail at Greg Chapel Cricket center and a few different things there, and then, uh, moved over to Canada. Just applied for a random lifty job there. Never seen the snow before. Um, got an interview.

Speaker A: Australian me, wasn't it?

Speaker C: Had no idea. I was just like, just chasing something different, um, and went over there and just made the best friends from all around the world. And it was like, okay, the world's a big place. Like, there's so many things I can do. So I come back here, managed, um, some bars and pubs for like three to four years. And I was like, I love hospo. I, like, love, um, the regulars and just talking and chopping it up and things. And I was like, I could happily do this for the rest of my life and then kind of get to a point where it's like, I don't know, like, what's going on? You're working night shifts, you're getting a bit older. And then actually a big chat with Rob in the car one day around, like, what are we going to do? Like, how are we going to, like, make something of our lives? You know, he's a. He was played footy for a bit. His identity was wrapped up in that and it was more just around, what can we do together? And he had the idea to start Obi and Co, which was at the time, Australia's first slides company. Um, so we done that for a couple of years and that was crazy. You know, like, we've always sort of been the people who've, you know, tried to build and do things and like, creative projects and all the different Instagram handles and stuff like that, you know, like, just trying to see what life's about a little bit. Uh, and then, yeah, we'd done that for a bit, got into a few stores and it was like, hey, this is pretty crazy. Like Ecom. We've done the whole influencer thing. Back in 2017, I think it was,

Speaker A: uh, like, you were the influencers or

Speaker C: you worked with influencers? No, no, no. So our whole strategy was, um, the influencer product sort of stuff because our budget wasn't big back then, you know what I mean? We were just like, everything was shoestring, so set up the Ecom store and, um, sent out a bunch of product. And I think the thing that really, uh, stands out now, like, Looking back is we showed care even back then. I know the handwritten notes, like, a lot of people in small businesses do it, but it was really like our sort of tactics and thinking was like, um, hooking up their family and stuff too, you know, where it was like, so you get that full, um, breadth of connection and stuff. So just like even experimenting with stuff like that and thinking about, like, growing businesses in that sense was really cool. Um, but then we decided that we didn't want to be shoe salesmen for the rest of our life. So we sold that business on Facebook, Marketplace. Um, and then. Yeah, and then what did we do? Then we started up a, uh, like a little agency where we'd go and help, like, um, cafes and things like that with social media, strategy, photography and things like that. Um, done that for a little bit. Service business, again, just like learning, not, um, really thinking it's the forever thing. And I don't know, it's just like uni and school. I wasn't that passionate, but I think, like, by actually doing this, the work, and. And then you find that curiosity. Like, I was like, I want to learn, I want to do all this homework. Uh, this was never me, you know, so it was like this newfound energy and I think of, yeah, of like, what's possible. So, um, yeah, we've done a bunch of things and, yeah, started the Funny Business podcast and, um, launched a consultancy off the back of that, um, ways of Working consultancy, where we won a lot of our clients, obviously through the podcast, but, like LinkedIn content. So I had a background in recruitment. Um, so on my 28th birthday, I remember going in for an interview, not knowing what recruitment was, and then becoming a recruitment consultant and realizing it's one of the hardest jobs going around. Um, and just the skills I learned there have just been crazy. You know, like, people are the best and things happen and you need to navigate hard conversations and, um, and it's how you react and things. So I was just. Yeah, I feel like I've told the longest story ever. I don't know if it's all making sense.

Speaker A: I've written like 50 questions because I think you've had, like, such an insane journey. Clearly. Like, I don't know how else to sum it up, but of, like, I'm just thinking of, like, all of the parallels you've got with, like, just everything. I mean, yeah, I think you said this at the start off. Off the. Off the record, before we started around how it all comes back to people, and I think that couldn't Be more true. And I see this thread web and, you know, so much throughout your story as well, so I'm loving it. I keep going.

Speaker C: Oh, man. Honestly, I'm just trying to think, like, I think everyone's got their own unique pathway, and, like, the more they lean into that, like, growing up, it's like, yeah, I was inspired by people, but I always wanted to be myself, you know, and it's like, what the. What the different types of skill sets, like, the Frankenstein of all the things I like, you know? So I think, like, how to move the needle, too, is like, positive self talk. Like, I cut myself a lot of slack. Probably too much, uh, some would say. But, um, you know, life's hard and doing things are hard. And I think, like, giving people the benefit of the doubt, being around people who see the world in a positive light, like, in a world full of negative, Like, I think that's, like, that really helped me.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. There's one thing I want to dive into straight off the bat, which. Which really resonated and I'm curious about. You kind of talked about an example where you were year 10, and you were kind of like, you made this pretty crazy decision, you know, by. By a lot of standards. But your parents seem to really back you into it, even though they. They found out in the moment.

Speaker C: Yeah, they knew that I was.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: They knew I was going to private school. They probably wiped their brow. They're like, thank you a little bit, man. To be honest, like, I'm always a C student. I don't know. Like, I just didn't really connect, but I felt like there were some cool teachers. Yeah. And I felt like I got along with all the teachers. I never caused the drama and stuff, but I think my parents were just. I think now looking back, it's probably like, oh, you had a bit of drive. Like, if he's shown initiative, like, that's probably a good thing, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, what was it like being back? You know, because. Because these days you ask kids what they want to do, and it's, you know, it's. It's YouTube influencers. It's. It's all these sorts of things which probably seem crazy today, but what was it like for you, you know, for your parents in the moment to find out, but then for them to still back you into. Into this sort of path?

Speaker C: Yeah, it was weird. Like, I remember my first job that I had. I got it through placement because we had to do it through school, and I wanted to work at the Great Chapel Cricket center because I love cricket. And um, so I just called him up and asked and they were like, we don't do it ever. But because you called um, and everyone else sort of got their careers person to call and just see if there was anything and it was like you're the first kid who's actually called themselves and it was like, yeah, we'll give you a chance. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And I think like those sort of like it just reaffirms kind of, you

Speaker A: know what I mean? It's like, oh, maybe rewards that behavior for you. Right, do that.

Speaker C: Yeah, do that and then like tell people about it. And I always saw people who took their opportunities, you know, or really saw something made the most of it, really done well, you know. But I think it all comes down to like you have to enjoy it too or have to want it because faking it's the worst, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, I hear that. And I, I think like for me, I think you know, one, the fact that your parents clearly backed you into something that you were, you know, at the time, you're really passionate about. But you also gave some really other cool sounding examples of like where leadership at quite a formative age for you. You know, plenty of times when that seemed to pop up throughout the, the cricket academy and things like that. How do you think that shows up in, you know, in the workplaces that you're in today? Um, either for yourself or for others?

Speaker C: Yeah, leadership on and off. I've never really thought of myself as a leader even though, um, you know, in some like sporting teams and stuff, captain and things like that. But I thought leadership was more around uh, not necessarily that hard nosed. Listen to me, I'm at the front. I was always sort of chatting to people one on one and revving them up when I thought that they needed a good rev up and you know, working with coaches who see that as a strength as well, you know, rather than getting yelled at. And it's like I think everyone's motivated by different things. So it's like how do you make sure everyone's on the same page? And I see like work and teams like uh, I know sport comes up a lot but it's a perfect example. It doesn't even matter what grade or anything you play. Like I think like good teams and stuff, you don't always have to be best friends. You're not going to be, you know, like they're like, it's just a fact. So it's like, but you got to respect each other, you know, and like, know the value that they provide will actually help you get to the end result. Like, you need them, you know, and sometimes the best feeling ever is like, the people you don't get along with necessarily, they stick up for you in situations that, uh, that. That's what sort of brings the glue together. Like, all the best teams I've been a part of have always sort of felt like that. Like, it's always like a group of misfits or, you know, it just feels like a story or a movie. Like, I think, like, I think like that and to try and make sense of the world. Like, I see movies and storylines, I'm like, oh, it kind of feels like that. Like, that's what I want to tap into, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, I hear you. I think, like, one of the other things I found really interesting about your background as well is like, you've had this kind of steering wheel, like a large part of it where you've kind of been in charge of your own, I, um, don't know, path present, you know, whatever it is you were focused on in terms of, like, kicking off some of these businesses. I liked in particular, you mentioned that, you know, clearly, you know, study and being studious and things like that weren't really something that would be part of your life early on. But you mentioned about how that really flipped once you found a thing that you're really passionate about and really like, best invested in. How do you. How do you think companies. Oh, I guess, like, do you have that now in, you know, in the role that you're in now and like, how do you think companies can. Can be better at, like, helping their people find that and like, finding that kind of like fire to. To jump into something like that, you know, be passionate?

Speaker C: Well, one thing that we were thinking about with our consultancy was actually having someone like that, Mark Worthington now who's the player development manager, he handles everything off field and worries about the people to really like, fill that void for teams and our consultancy where it's like, no, I want to work with you on your plan, like your personal plan on like, how to make things better. And I think that sort of care. The little things that it's not a campaign, it's not things that you're taking photos of or promoting, it's the, the actual. That stuff. I think that's what I, uh, I see, like, really working and winning just through my experiences and, and things like, how have you seen it?

Speaker A: Oh, that's A good question. Um, if I think of, like, when I've been the most motivated and, like, driven to, uh, to solve just some real gnarly problems, it's. It's when they are, like, when I'm definitely on the outside of my comfort zone. Like, I'm. I'm someone. And I would say my experience. Most people I've worked with or, you know, been in a team with or led or something like that seem to have this, which is that, like, if you put a challenge in front of someone and you back them, um, and. And you, you know, let them know they've got it, and, you know, if mistakes happen, then, you know, you can. You can come back and fix them and go again or whatever it is. Like, nine times out of ten, I think they're probably gonna prove you right and. And actually, like, show you that you put your faith in the. In the right place, you know, rather than kind of being on the top about it or being a little bit too controlling or something like that. But I've certainly noticed for myself, at the very least, like, when I've been at my best is when I, you know, something is put in front of me that is almost too hard for me to solve, but I know that I've got, you know, someone's got my back to. To land it.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. And even, like, it's just weird when you think about, like, I reckon people who have the best teams have probably been burnt the most too, you know, like, they've trusted people and they've given people that freedom, but they've got the best teams, you know, I think that's part the process is probably that skill, isn't it around just, like, trusting people and trusting your gut. So I think that's, uh. Like, I don't know. I know for me for a fact, like, with working at Scared, like, them treating me like an adult, flexible calendars, get the job. I'm like, that is awesome. And how I talk about the company and stuff. Like, that's good brand, you know, like, it's authentic. It's true, you know?

Speaker A: Um, yeah, so just, like, you know why they hide you. They know why, you know, why you're there. Like, let's. Let's just be honest about it. Right?

Speaker C: Well, that's the best, I think. And I think when people feel seen, you know, like, when. When it's like, yeah, I understand, like, the role that you're playing. Like, teams are hard too, you know, like, there's. People are motivated by different things. How do you direct People, um, in the right direction and, you know, like, there's all these different ways you can do things and I don't know, I love hearing about all different techniques and ways you can do things. I'm sure there's. You've got like a whole playbook.

Speaker A: I can't remember. There's some staff floating around about how many, like, management books there are or leadership books there are in, in the world. And it's astonishing. I'm sure there's a lot of overlap or duplication or something like that. But, uh, yeah, it feels like every week there's a new, you know, you just have to be on LinkedIn, like, Oya. To see it too.

Speaker C: Right? Well, I'm just like, in a world where I don't know too much, I know for a fact that, like, talking to customers can't be a bad thing, you know, so I'm thinking of things where it's like, I can't predict the future. I don't know what's going to happen. But I know for a fact that if I'm talking to customers or if I'm doing these things, um, that it can't be a bad thing, you know, like, that I know for sure. So it's like, how do I find those little things in the day, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think my, my spin on that, on my build, is that, you know, I think part of being a leader is seeing your direct reports or, you know, your people as a customer. For part of that is that I think so often, you know, you hear of companies that people are just screaming out with feedback or ways to fix something or improve something, and it kind of, you know, is away with the wind. And it's just something to get listened to.

Speaker C: People don't want to hear it either. I don't think, like, it's hard having hard convos if you're getting your ass chewed by something, you know, you're like, it's not the, it's not the, it's not that pleasant. But I think, like, doing those hard things, like, I know for a fact, like, after stuff that I've done that's been super uncomfortable and I might not have got it right, you know, but I've experienced it. I'm like, I'm so glad I did that because next time, you know, and I, uh, think, like, having that lens of just like, doing the hard things first, because I think that's when you get forgiven the most too. It's like if you're just starting something, you might as well, do the hardest thing because people are just going to let you keep failing. And the tolerance is like, a lot, a lot better.

Speaker A: So I think there's something as well, right, like, about being upfront when you have, like, when you have mucked it up a bit and, you know, hey, guys, this didn't work out.

Speaker B: Let's.

Speaker A: Let's try and do something. And I think there's so rarely a time where a decision or an outcome or something is reversible. And like, you know, we all take a lesson from it. But again, you know, depending on the environment, it doesn't always feel like you have the safety maybe to make those mistakes or say it when you have or something like that. So there's, there's benefits to having that

Speaker C: freedom 100%, I think, like, being clear too, you know, like, we can hide behind fluffy stuff. Like, I've definitely done it before where I'm just mumbling and bumbling and just reading from a script and it's like, no, just like, I'd rather your stuff up, but give it to me like a human, you know, And I think, like, yeah, HR would be very hard. And I think some of the best people work in that space because they see the, the value and the good stuff it can do at, like, really successful places. Like, what do you see when you come across things that's like a common pattern of like. Yeah, like what, what things people have done to create that culture and create that, like, care.

Speaker A: Oh, like in the great workplaces. I think it. I think it's that they care as people. You know, I think some part of it is that they, they just are those human, like, they're just wired that way. Um, but I think there's also, you know, when I, when I first started, you know, becoming a leader or leading and leading people or something like that, I used to reflect a lot on the kinds of leaders that I had and the way they made me feel. And that shaped a lot, you know. Yes, there were the books and things like that and the courses and whatever, but I used to reflect a lot on the way, um, my many and varied leaders made me feel. And, you know, I had great leaders, I had bad leaders. Everyone's probably had a spectrum of some, um, variety. But that for me really helped shape, um, yeah, how I approached it. And I think you just have to kind of. I don't know. There's a lot. I feel like I took a lot of pressure when I first came into a leadership role around like, you know, some of those really um, sort of stupid myths that just continue to exist. Like, you know, they never show emotion. They're always right. They know everything, like all these sorts of things. And I think once you can just let some of that fall, um, away and just realize that we're all, you know, we're all people, we're all trying to do a job, um, and just, yeah, just be a bit more human about it, then I think it just makes the job a lot easier, as hard as it can be, because I think you hold on to a lot of those things. Um, but, yeah, I think my experience as an employee shaped a lot of how it was when I was leading teams. By all means.

Speaker C: I love that, man. I love that. I just think, yeah, communities and seeing groups of people that are, uh, you know, motivated by that, you know, getting that end result, like, there's nothing better. And I think, like, it's cliche, but, like, the process, like, you have to enjoy it because it's just. It's not great. If not, you know, like, I just feel like there's always like, you. There's whinges everywhere. It's just like, how do you get around people who can get the most out of you, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. And, um, I asked the question at the start around, you know, what's. What's a non HR person doing on there on a largely HR focused podcast. But I think, you know, for me, part of the reason that I was so keen to get you on and you touched on a lot of it at the start was around like, you know, I think you're doing something that a lot of people that, you know, look after the people function in any business, um, are really responsible for, which is branded community. And you touched a little bit earlier on around, like we're in such a different, ah, environment to what we were five years ago. I mean, five years ago, really remote work. I think the only universal brand remote work had was that it was people were slacking off and they were at home, you know, legs up on the couch. Um, admittedly that may be me a couple of times, but obviously that has totally revolutionized in the past few years and we've now got this like, you know, multimodal, whatever you want to call it, environment where people are, uh, you know, either not in the office because they're in a different office nearby, or, you know, they're working from home, they're in a different country. Um, but you've just got these completely different communities of people. I think that job that often a head of people or something like that is charged with is how do we create, like, a really cohesive, you know, culture and community in that? Um, so that's part of the reason why I was keen to bring you on. But I mean, like, tell me a bit about what those two things mean for you. You've obviously had crazy experience, like, you know, doing branded community for your own businesses, for other businesses. Now, like, what. What role is that playing your life?

Speaker C: Oh, everything, man. Like, I think it. Like we said earlier, it's like, it all comes down to people. And I think, like, how do you form that connection piece and make people care about what you're doing? It's like, how do you. What. What are your comms like? To me, that's interesting and just. I'm curious. So I love experimenting and just playing and learning in that space. So naturally, for me, it's just like, I love working with people, you know, Like, I don't have many good ideas. I just hang around a lot of people who have good ones, and then I can just piggyback off all their thinking and add my lens and stuff to it. But I honestly believe, like, my role at Scared, it started off as a content manager, like, um, and now it's morphed into a community content manager, really, because it's like, yes, we can pump out stuff and do stuff, but, like, for who? Why? You know, so, um, really creating that moat around a group of people who care about what we're doing, and as things shift, they'll still care. You know, it doesn't matter what the product or the. What the service is. It's just like, how do you create that group of people who, you know, care about the same things and feel supported and connected? That's what I started to see in Slack Group. It's a global Slack, uh, group where people can connect and swap stories and just actually connect with cool people. Because I think it's about the environment that you create. Like, one thing that I always felt in the startup space is everything felt like a, uh, stiff, boring. Like. Like, as a recruiter, going to all these, like, events where they just go on about code, and I'm just like, I don't care. Is this boring? And how do we make things a bit more accessible for people who might not be in this space but are interested? So I think, like, just thinking back now, it's like, all right, well, we created a different environment. We made it feel more like you're going to the pub or a nightclub with all These cool people. And it doesn't have to be stiff and boring. It can be fun and different, um, and just sort of like creating your own sort of lane. So I think like, always thinking originally around, like, what can you do that's a bit, um, different, like, what's your perspective, what's your voice? And then how can you, um, shape and build content around that where it, like, it educates people, it makes them laugh, they can like all that type of stuff. It's like, really find out. What I'm learning lately is like, the more, you know, like, it's all obvious stuff, but it's just like the more you know about someone, the more niche you can really go down. You can really speak to them. And seeing those results has been awesome lately. So just honestly, like, just being curious about how people behave and move and why they care about stuff. And I don't know, I did. Like you were saying, I don't think you can fake it. I think that sort of stuff comes naturally and you can develop those things. Like, I felt like I've developed him. I didn't think I was like, naturally grew up like that. But this newfound passion has sort of led me on a just different path, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, I hear you say, yeah. So what you're saying is like, the authenticity side of this is obviously important because people see through it. How do you think? You know, I'm thinking of this from like, uh, an employer branding context. So like, you know, we in the, in the people space, service are trying to help our company attract the best people we can, you know, to build a great product or service or whatever it is and really be successful when we're trying to attract those people. What do you think? Uh, ah, some ways you've used in the past to really get to the, like, the core of what it is about a company's brand that can be that differentiated that maybe isn't that kind of like, you know, generic, boring sort of brand, but actually does speak to, uh, the kinds of people they want to bring into the company.

Speaker C: I think it's about being proud about where you work. Like, I think you can tell like when people are just like that feels like they're part of their identity, like where they work and stuff. They pump it out and they're like, that's the coolest shit I think I can do, you know, Like, I feel like that shows with, with that. And I think teams who can allow that trust and flexibility. Like, I think like, if starting from scratch, you're like, find these people in the audience to build that content around, like, what you want to create. And how do you attract those people? It's like seeing people who are proud of where they work and they're on LinkedIn, they're saying, we just dropped this thing, we're body pumped. And it's not like it doesn't feel like it's just been ticked off the box, you know, And I just. Yeah, I think that's when you can really. Like, for me, that's what attracts me to other places. Like, I'll look on LinkedIn, I'll see the people who work there, I'll see where they've worked before and, you know, you can sort of suss the vibe and see what they're trying to create. And it's like, okay, you're piecing together like the dots and not everyone has to be on LinkedIn and stuff as well. It's sometimes cool when it's not, you know, it feels a bit mysterious or a bit different. And um, yeah, I just think. And the type of characters too, not, not necessarily always experience. I think bringing people from different fields in, mixed in with experienced people really probably drives the most innovation. And I think like, what attracts people is just observing that, like, smart people are just watching what people are doing so you naturally get cool. You know what I mean? I think, anyway, definitely.

Speaker A: No, I think it does. I think it's. You're right. Like this, this, this brand core exists. You just got to know the right people to, you know, ask, uh, that are in your team. Right. So it's like it's picking the people that are super passionate, who are, you know, who are showing up to work and are, uh, really driven about it and, you know, finding the language they use. How do they describe it? How, how can you use them to showcase that to, uh, you know, to uh, your ideal talent? What are the channels, you know, if, if LinkedIn is the right one? I'm sure there's been some room to hold ones. I can't think of any right now, but I'm sure, you know, there's some great alternatives to LinkedIn. I'm sure there's some dens on TikTok or something like that that are doing cool stuff, no doubt. But, um. No, I hear you. I think you nailed it. And um, talk to me about, like, one of the, one of the things you said earlier that I want to go back to is like the power of the niche. And like, I see often, um, and I mean, you know, I've worked for a Lot of different industries, but the most egregious one, I remember seeing this when I worked for a law firm and they had on their careers page they had like, um, it was like, you know, there's classic stock images where it's like a person from every race with, you know, everyone's got a different, you know, whether it's a different disability or something like that. We're just trying, it's like we're just trying to have everyone represented in one picture and they're all shaking hands or high fiving or something super, super cliche. But tell me like, how does the niche work? I think a lot of in my experience and I've only felt like I've fallen into marketing in the past two years. I've started my own company. But weirdly the niche works in the sense that the less generic you are, uh, the more you appeal like more strongly. It's just been my experience. But yeah, I'm keen to hear from you. Like, how does it work for you? How do you find it? Um, how do you use it?

Speaker C: I think language like what you were saying, it's like things that you would drop in conversations and, and stuff like that. So I think the best brands just truly understand the language really well. Um, and where to sink that in because I, I know when I get sold to it feels like, hang on, have they been reading my thoughts like on um, like how do they know this? You know, so. But that's a, that's probably something that I've learned recently to be honest. Like when everyone told us to niche down with funny business, we wanted to stay broad but our thinking was like, yeah, we don't want to box ourselves into it. We're just curious people. So I was like, that was conflicting for a long time for me because I was like, no, I think I'm not putting anything off the table. You know what I mean? But I think in comms, especially marketing and advertising and stuff, I think you need to think about it from that lens, but probably just applying it to different, differently in different contexts I suppose.

Speaker A: Did you end up niching down with, with your podcast with that brand?

Speaker C: No. So we just ended up staying real broad and that's what we, because our, to our success was meeting these people. It wasn't downloads or numbers and things like that. It was just being able to connect and, and that was our uh, thinking around that in terms of, yeah, what success looks like, but in terms of like with sched social and just really nailing our audience and really understanding who are the people who use our product and who need our product and how do we talk exactly like them? So we've recently changed all that sort of stuff now. So if you see ads pop up, um, with Skid social, just know that we're trying real hard to talk exactly like you. So, um, yeah, I just think. Yeah, going back to everything, I just. Yeah, I really think, like, languages, probably the most important part, I'd say.

Speaker A: And what do you think would be like, I guess, in terms of how people get to the point where they know what language to use, where you know, if niching is right for them and you know, how it may maybe make their efforts to brand their careers and opportunities more impactfully. How do you think, you know, what are some ways you've seen work well, in terms of trying to do that

Speaker C: in the past, just like doing things differently. Like, um, when I was looking for jobs, I wouldn't have like a usual resume. I had like a link tree and told like a story in a different way. And it's just different ways you can stand out. But that's me, my natural personality. You know what I mean? Um, so that just.

Speaker A: Yeah. What about from an employer side? Do you think there's ways in which. Do you think there's a need? Do you think there's like, um. Do you think there's value in like trying to niche down to like a particular candidate, like, type of person they're trying to hire or something like that?

Speaker C: 100%? Like, for us, how we hide and found a lot of our talent was the language that we used in our posts, like, the way how we like our attitude. Like, we had some really good people work for our consultants, like the best top engineers and like on post and stuff, choking Rob saying, you can't call HR when you are hr, you know, and for a lot of that, people are going, that is wild. That's crazy. But it won us contracts like Twitter and things, you know, so that sort of signaling and then all the opportunities that come through were people knew how to speak to us because we made it, uh, like everything that we put out there is very consistent, you know, and then people can know that they can, hey, what the up. Or you know what I mean, they can be real casual with us and we love that. So it's like we want to attract those types of people. And it's not necessarily always the experience. It's more around, like the values and the attitude and, you know, maybe the coachability and just around, like, I feel like they'd be good team players. They see, you know, like they, they can see things from other people's perspectives. And I don't know, we didn't want stiff, boring people working for us. So it was almost like, let's put stuff out there that's going to put all these people off, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. So basically it's uh, it's like, it's customer intimacy, right? Like it's really deeply understanding them and the problems they're facing and the interests they have, the language they're using those sorts of things and kind of aligning that brand towards those things to be more compelling.

Speaker C: And it helps when, like, if you're marketing to you, you know what I mean? Like if you're, if you're building something and you're part of a team that the demographic is you then obviously, like, it's a lot easier to draw on your own insights and most likely you have friends who are in that sort of space. So, um, yeah, I think that can be a lot easier. But then you probably overanalyze this too. Like when you have so many options or you know, how things are done, you're probably. Sometimes that's not the best thing. You know, it's good when people come in and have a real fresh, naive view on stuff and just maybe shake things up in that sense. But yeah, with the world the way it is at the moment, like I feel like nothing. People think startups are not safe and stuff, but there's corporates that aren't safe. There's all there. Like, no. So you might as well just like chase what you're actually into if you can. And I just think like, everyone's in different positions and got different responsibilities so, you know, you've got to play your game. But yeah, I just think like, there's been no better time to actually like follow what you actually want to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. It's. I feel, I mean obviously I'm, I'm two years into doing my own thing as well, so I'm, I'm clearly an advocate for it, but I do generally feel like there's a, ah, bit of a trend towards people, you know, finding ways to do that, whether it's, you know, on top of a job or instead of a job or something like that. I think the time's never been better

Speaker C: joining a sick team, you know, being a part of something like I, I get jealous of when I see people like going through a stage at a company of growth where they've Achieved something like, that's so cool. And I think these days people are so quick to just like, career hop and not really sit. And I can see like, the, the trust, you know, with jobs getting lost and stuff. But I feel like when you find something good, you just. It's worth hanging on and like, seeing projects and stuff out rather than sort of just move on to the next thing, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It's funny because I'm. I'm. I'm a big fan of that. Like, you're in that saying, you're either earning or you're learning. And, um, you know, personally, I. Ironically, because, you know, I obviously come from a background where you try to hold on to people as much as possible, but I'm a real big advocate of people changing companies when it's. When it's right, I think. Um, but it's also because, you know, I've seen how much it can reward you from a salary perspective. Um, and I also, you know, obviously I look at salaries all day, every day, and I know they aren't growing, you know, very quickly at the moment. M. So I think a lot about how people can benefit their own circumstances, um, by just, you know, I was going to say simply changing employers. Obviously that's not a simple thing, but, um, you're right that there is, you know, there's the flip side of that, which is that sometimes it pays to be at a great place with an incredible team with, you know, interesting work that's helping you grow professionally. And M, you're doing cool stuff and you just talk about it like that's. That's a reward as well. Just maybe. Isn't that a financial one?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. And, like, honestly, I reckon some of the best jobs I've ever had. The best job I ever had was being a lifty over in Canada and that was $10 an hour, you know. So it's all like, relative to your life, you know, and what you. What you think is success, like a peaceful life, doing good work is success. And like, I think, like, I've got mates who just like, going to work, clocking in, and I've got mates who care way too much about everything and want to do go above and beyond. And they're worried about all these other things that aren't even anything to do with them, you know, but they want the, they want the company to do well. So it's like, that must be just insane in the bigger companies because it's just like, how do you align all These people, like, there must be the tactics there, I feel. Yeah, that must be interesting.

Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. Uh, everyone's got their own story on there.

Speaker C: Oh, exactly, exactly.

Speaker A: You've got like, again, like, I keep coming back to this. Like, you, you just got this, like, such a diverse journey and experience, you know, being a. Lifting the cricket academy, like running your own business now, like content community manager. Uh, and, you know, what are some of the lessons you take from that into, uh, what, I guess have each been unique communities in and of their own. What do you take from that to the community world that you have today?

Speaker C: Oh, I just think it's a mix of all the stuff. But at the end of the day, one thing I've learned recently is, like, communication is probably the most important thing, you know, like, and I think, uh, when bad things happen, it's a really good opportunity to flip things around. Like from a hospitality days, it was like when there was something really bad happened. You can go above and beyond and just flip that experience and the magic of having something bad happen and been able to turn it into a positive, like, you know, like, seeing that.

Speaker A: Do you have a big, A big memory there that you.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So working at the Mooney Valley Legends Bar, um, we had someone. There was a big. It was a big birthday party. They were being a bit difficult, so I could understand why they were a bit angry, but they were just sort of dropping the plates on the table and, and things like that. Um, not really, ah, asking because no one was really putting their hand up and that. And they ended up complaining and stuff. And it was more not just going in there and just giving them a voucher and that it was actually going to speak to them and just saying, explaining things real clearly. Like, this person just had some bad news this morning. We're very sorry about that. It's not an excuse. I just want to let you know that that's happened. Um, we're going to make sure everything's going to be all right. No stress, like, we're, we're very sorry about that. And then they end up becoming regulars and members and, you know, it's just because they were like, oh, that was so good, like you, like, weren't angry and, and things like that. And for me, I think that was probably the first time that I've sort of done that and that just reaffirmed, like, okay, like, like, so when bad things are happening now, it's more like, all right, uh, there's an opportunity here. And even like doing the stuff with customer calls Like, I'm doing a bunch of clarity calls at the moment with customers, going through every single customer and talking to them. And obviously not all of them are going to be 10 out of 10. So it's like, how do you navigate those situations? And at the end of all of them, good, bad, otherwise they were just like, it's so good to actually talk to someone and they actually listen to me and understand. And it was like, yeah, like, I'm not scared to. You can vent. Like, that's what we want to know, you know what I mean? Like, yes, we love hearing the good stuff, but the bad stuff is what makes us going to improve. And I just. People just push that aside, uh, procrastinate. And it's like, nah, like do the dirty work like that. And I just believe, like, yeah, just being aware, you can change stuff up, you can make things better, you know, rather than just like, just sit there.

Speaker A: Yeah, I hear you. I was. The example that came to mind for me is, um, you know, sadly, the too few companies that I've worked in, but they've done an incredible job on the transparency side of things. And I think, um, their ability to be really upfront and own when, you know, results or something aren't going the way that we had hoped and just to be able to put it out there and to say, look, you know, we thought this was going to work and, you know, here's why we don't think it worked and here's what we're going to do as a team. And I think in particular, if you invite feedback like you're talking about on your customer calls, it just builds so much respect, you know, in the community, which is what every company ultimately is, um, you know, for being real about it.

Speaker C: I feel like it's the founder lens, like, if you've got that founder mindset around, if this was my company, I want to know everything, you know what I mean? Like, rather than just think of yourself as I'm just another number or a member of the team, it's like, nah, 100%, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, it's so often in startups, you know, employees have equity or the ability to buy it, so they kind of are owners in a way and you really want to foster that mindset. I know I talk a lot with, um, with companies around equity and it's, you know, so often the communication side of things and how they, how they treat people and how they talk about it is, is why is either successful or a failure. It's because people don't believe in it. Um, and, you know, then it's kind of just this expensive thing you've given them that costs you a lot of money as a company, but doesn't actually incentivize them.

Speaker C: Oh, exactly, man. And just like, little things like sending cameos from celebrities for people to birthdays and like, if you, you know, just like, doing different things where it shows that you actually care in a fun way about your people. Like, I don't. I know for a fact, like, the best workplace is when nobody wants to leave. You know, they get a promotion or they get another opportunity that's like double their wage. They have to go. But like, those places where they're like, I don't want to go, or they always come back. And I always felt like with the bars and stuff, it was like the people who used to work there that still come back and still like, that's the community. Like that. How do you do that for businesses and services and, and things like that? Like, how do you flip that? So, um, yeah, and I just think, like, through the funny business podcast, like, the common theme we've all guessed was like, none of the people who've got to where they wanted to didn't not do the dirty work. You know, like their customer obsessed, like, psycho obsessed. And it was like, okay, that has to be a good thing. If all these people who have done a, done a really good, um, job in their industry or super successful, they're all super customer, ah, focused. They, they're always looking at support tickets and probably customer success is worst nightmare because they're just literally psycho about that. But I don't know, I think, like, when you can flip it and see good things happen, I think that's what motivates you, doesn't it? Like, it makes you want to get out of bed.

Speaker A: Like, yeah, I think you're right. Right. Like, I think people know that this stuff inherently works. I mean, it's not always easy to tie a, uh, you know, cause and effect to perfectly. But you' right. Like, I think if you. I'm sure most people have that workplace, they reflect on where they're just like, it wasn't what I got paid or it wasn't, you know, it was, it was the environment. It was a community of the people and things like that that made me really want to stay and made a really hard place to. To leave if they, if they eventually did. Um, and I think you hit on like, one of the key things, which is that what makes m a great community is definitely that ability to like own issues, to be upfront, to be transparent to whatever degree you can be around what's going on and like to show your true intention around things is, is a really important one. I'm, I'm curious like what are your thoughts are. Because I think you would probably face a lot of similar challenges to what like a um, modern workplace does when they've got people everywhere online, offline, you know, next to each other, whatever. How do you think about that from some of the communities that you've worked with? Because I imagine you'd have very similar things, right? Like you get people together. You're obviously trying to foster an online community. There's you know, different channels for social media media. How do you think about that?

Speaker C: Yeah, just uh, just like in ways how you can surprise and delight. Like we knew we'd people just want a connection, you know, especially in the founder space through the podcast. So we started Dream Big Social Club because we knew like we didn't want the opportunities felt like us where we like. No, we want the opportunities to feel like the people, you know. So um, we done like private online events where we'd have master classes and people come in and talk directly to the community and they can have answer, question and answer and stuff. It's kind of like all that things that people would do with Patreon and then um, launch like pop up coffee shops and things where we just come, come meet, come hang out, different cities and things like that. Um, and then the best thing for me or what I want to see is like people meet there, catch up and then they're all hanging out and doing their own thing, you know, like it's kind of the environment where things are formed, you know. So I was like what role do we want to play and how can we create that environment in a low key way? Like pick a cool coffee shop once a month and just have people just roll in crew, you know what I mean? There's no agenda. Uh, we're not getting up and talking. Um, you know, there's no panel or anything like that. It's just literally have a coffee. I want to introduce you to this person. Because that's the one thing with the pod is just like connecting different people who would not normally connect, you know. And um, but, but knowing it's like you know, setting up a mate, you know, that this person will work with this person or you like thinking like that and it's like I love that it's connecting people who don't normally um, would just you know, be in each other's world. So, yeah, I don't know, I just think, yeah, yeah, people's really important.

Speaker A: I mean, I love the surprise and delight. I'm curious, I'll ask you afterwards in a second, like, what you think the sort of, like top one or two, uh, you know, examples that have been in your career so far. But I'm curious around like, because there's, there's tools like, you know, there's Slack plugins, there's all these sorts of things that kind of automated. But what do you think there's more value in, in doing that in a, in a, like, in a personal sense?

Speaker C: I think the worst shit ever is automated tools for people like all that. I just don't, I don't believe in that. Like to, to my core. Like, I know that people do all this, type this comment to get this and, and like, oh, I don't know. Just for me it's just, nah, like I see the strength and the magic in actually taking the time to look at something. So on LinkedIn, a whole part of my recruitment strategy was obviously connect with people. How do you build that trust, show opportunity, be clear, whatever that is, you know what I mean? So I was like really mixing around with like messaging and stuff like that. So I found the key to all that sort of stuff wasn't posting. It wasn't um, any of that. It was building relationships through DMs and talking to people and just getting around. So like starting from scratch, didn't know anyone. It's like, well, how do you get involved? It's like, find people that you, that are cool and you're interested in like yourself and then get around their stuff like, and just be there, be consistent. Like, so many people just drop and fade. But it's weird because I spend a lot of my time on LinkedIn talking to people and people might be like, oh, uh, is that a waste of time? I'm like, no, not, not in my eyes. It's like, I know. So like, I feel like I know listen my listeners, you know, Like, I feel like I know each one. I know what they do, I know what they like. Uh, it feels like deeply personal. And I always felt like, like bands and, and things like that try and maybe separate a lot of the sales and trying to be cool and not do the comment back and thing where I've always been the opposite. I'll follow people back, I'll do all that sort of stuff. I don't sort of care what the vanity sort of Things look like I'd rather the feeling of something.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know, results speak for themselves.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. So it's not sort of necessarily following the trends of like, um, trying to look cool or be cool. It was just like how I actually feel and what I think and just put it out there and not think too much. Because I think for me personally, like, if I think too much, it's probably not good. You know, it's just sort of get it out there, you know, if you're

Speaker A: not in the summer, we'll overheat. Yeah.

Speaker C: Oh, mate.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: So, okay, so I'm hearing it's like try not to automate or try to think, you know, how to scale away the, like the human element of relationship building and things like that.

Speaker C: Yeah. Like I look at people's profiles, I look at their experience, I try and piece together a bit of a story around, like. So when I connect with people, I send them a message that feels personal rather than, you know, like, hey, I checked out your stuff and things that, um. Yeah, like, just do things a little bit differently. Like I'll message and just be like, one, nice to meet you two. What does this word mean in the post that they've done or something like that? Where I've looked and I've genuinely, you know what I mean? It's just like, oh, I'll reply back to that. Like, that seems like someone who's, you know, taking a bit more of an interest in the surface level or trying to get me to do something really quickly. So, um, yeah, it's interesting. I just think like, yeah, social selling and all that type of stuff is super important because like, people buy from people at the end of the day and when you're hiring the people, that's probably the most important job, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. Like it's, it's so easy to get caught up in the, like, I don't know, the, the sort of robotic sounding messages that you feel like you might have to send. But actually when you put it that way, it's like remarkably simple to kind of break the mold a little bit and be different. Be human and, you know, be personal about it.

Speaker C: Yeah. And do less. Like, I always thought like numbers, like just pump it out and you'll, you know, they're eventually. That's true. But I feel like you burn a lot of connections that could have been really cool if you just played it a bit easier, you know what I mean? Like, and genuinely interested. Like not just blasting it's more just around. No, this person seems like a vibe, you know, Like, I want my whole. I want my connections to all be a vibe, you know, I want it to be, like, super quality, you know, Like, I don't know. That's just how I sort of see things and, yeah. Treat it pretty seriously, I reckon. LinkedIn, which is. I don't know if that's sad or good or,

Speaker A: uh, it depends on the day of the week, I think.

Speaker C: Oh, exactly, exactly.

Speaker A: I hear you. Um, all right, man. I want to bring this home, and I'm keen to. I'm keen to close down on something that I wanted to ask from your. Your point before, around surprise and delight with maybe your, uh, you know, with the context of, like, how it might work inside a company. What are some of the, you know, the one or two things that you've used in the past that were just, like, they were winners? They just did a really great job at just forming connection for people for

Speaker C: you, I think, um, one thing that we wanted to do for our cons when we had the consultancy was, like, we had the podcast and access to different people and friendships. So having Peter bowl, like, come in and deliver, like, a leadership workshop off the cuff to people in our, you know, who were clients of ours, like, stuff like that, that we could do, that other people couldn't do, that felt a bit personal and things like that. Um, that was a good one.

Speaker A: And so this is exclusive for the. For the community, was it?

Speaker C: Yeah, for our. Just our people in our audience. Um, we had. We were just, like, having a business podcast. We were lucky enough that people who we had on, they'd send us a lot of stuff, and it was like, all right, that's cool. But, like, how can we just give this all back to the community, you know? So, um, you know, we're giving away, uh, something every week. I think it was, like, surfboards, screens. It was wild. So it was like that type of stuff where it was just, like, stuff that you didn't have to do, and it's like, bam. Like, we've got some fun different things that we can activate. Um, but, yeah, I think it's just about, like, leveraging what you've got. You know, everyone's unique and everyone's got something to work with. It's just like finding out what it is and how you can sort of flex it and do some fun stuff, because work and life is very hard and boring and difficult a lot of the time. So it's like, how can you break it up and have a bit of fun and like, you know, like have people like care and engage with what you're doing. Um, and yeah, I've always sort of been attracted to the people who do things a little bit differently. So um, yeah, I kind of try and take that on board with everything that I do, whether that's good or bad or anything. I don't know, I just, I feel like it'd be way worse if I tried to do it another way, you know?

Speaker A: Well, mate, it's clearly working and uh, yeah, I mean if it gets you hitting the textbooks and, and working out ways to, to do it better than. It's a great driver, clearly.

Speaker C: Yeah, 100% man. 100%.

Speaker A: Mate, I appreciate you so much jumping on, especially the random reach out and will you come and talk to me about Brandon Community? So thank you a bunch for being a part of it.

Speaker C: I just hope there's something in there for at least one listener. But no, I appreciate you having us on. Like honestly love the work that you do, appreciate the hustle and respect everything that you do. So, um, yeah, um, if you want to hit me up after this, I'm on LinkedIn. Um, obviously every day, all day, just slide into the DMs. Um, but yeah, my honor, thank you so much. Um, and yeah, I appreciate it.

Speaker B: M. Thanks for joining us on another edition of the foundation series. Make sure to head over to our website to subscribe to the foundation series for monthly editions featuring future interviews on startup companies compensation. In each edition we'll explore the different strategies, trends and challenges faced by startups around the world. If you have a burning topic you'd like me to cover or a standout

Speaker A: guest that you want to hear from,

Speaker B: drop me an email so I can dive deeper, uh, into the compensation topics that matter most to you. Join me next time as we continue to uncover the strategies and practices driving success in global tech startups around the world. Thanks for listening,

Speaker A: Sam.