The HR Leader That Brings Therapy to Work with Isidora Torres, VP of People at Beehiiv

[gentle music] Welcome to the Foundation Series, your deep dive into startup compensation with industry leaders from across the startup world. Join me, Matt McFarlane, a people operations leader turned compensation specialist, as we uncover the strategies and practices driving success in tech startups around the world. Hear insights from heads of people, founders, and experts as we explore how to build robust compensation frameworks that not only fuel growth and retention, but do so in the dynamic startup environment that we all know and love.

Let's get into it. [upbeat music] Welcome to today's episode, where I'm joined by Isidora Torres, head of people operations at Beehive. We're getting into what it looks like to bring a therapist lens into HR, everything from embedding wellness into high performance to building radical transparency with your CEO. Let's get into it.

Isidora, welcome to the podcast. It's really exciting to have you here. Hmm. Thanks for having me.

Excited to be here. Amazing. All right. I'm gonna dive straight in because I'm really excited for this conversation, and the area I'm, I'm most eager to start with our discussion is this kind of, like, a theme of, of wellness and wellbeing, which is a really big focus of certainly what I see you write about in your newsletter and, and various other things.

The thing I'm really excited to dive into, you're pretty upfront about being a therapist, which is something that is... Often heads of people try not to conflate their role as, as being both, um, but you're pretty upfront and, and, and you really own it. So I'd love to just understand, like, what does that look like inside Beehive? How does that show up?

What does it kinda mean for, for you? Yeah, I mean, I think you're right, that managers and HR folks really try to delineate the role of, like, therapist versus being HR. And for me, I think it's not so much of, like, the separation, but it's, like, the integration of it. So by that, I mean I will integrate therapeutic skillsets into how I- Hmm...

connect with employees, whether that is, for example, like, I don't know, how to actually actively listen. Like, that is a skillset that not everyone has. And so it may not be as, like, blunt or, like, in-their-face about how I use my therapeutic skillsets or, like, how do I appear as a therapist to them. I think it's just more in the outputs and how I relate.

Um, and that I do try to keep a pre... I mean, I will say the transparency component is an output of, like, all, like, the culture itself, but because of that, I try to also keep an open door. So even when it's like, "Hey, I have open availability. If anyone wants to, like, clock in time with me just to connect and just do a check-in, like, happy to do that."

And obviously anything that requires more of, um, support, I would be very upfront in saying, like, "This sounds like something that we might need some, like, individual support from." Like, then I start to pull our resources, and then it becomes more about how do I support you in finding the right resource versus, like, I'm gonna be your individual therapist at work. Like, I think there is a very clear path for me in terms of making those, uh, type of decisions. Yeah.

Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So it's less about being everyone's individual counselor, and it's really about, like, borrowing some of the elements of being a therapist and applying that in kind of the, the ways of work and, like, the culture and things like that. Yeah, agreed.

Yeah. I think, I think it would, it would actually h- be more harmful to try and do both. That makes sense. And then how then does that go to expanding that c- like, culturally and those, those practices to leaders?

How do you find that works w- well, or what are some of the challenges that you face when you, when you, when you're trying to sort of up-level others? It's a good question, and I think had it not been this leadership team while I was getting my, like, credentials and schooling, that it might be a different experience. But because my leadership team is who they are, and, like, things like transparency, things like, you know, uh, like, uh, I think being able to show the process in which we grow, that came from the top.

And I think had that not been the case, I think ag- again, like, the way in which I navigate and bring forth about transparency or talk about feelings or talk about, you know, uh, company culture, ration- um, morale, and, like, those things wouldn't maybe as, uh, land as well. But because it's, they're rooted already there, it was, like, me just being able to tap it a little bit more and being able to, like, push it forward versus, like, having to start from the ground level and, like, have to really make a case when it was already there to begin with.

Yeah, okay. So it was less about, like, converting everyone to this approach and more of just, like, amplifying something that kind of already existed. Yeah, and adding further support, to your point. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, nice. And how does that show up in, in practice then? So it sounds like culturally, like, there's an alignment there, and then how, how do you actually help, like, l- leaders and, and others live some of these practices?

So, I mean, this is, this is a thing that I think most HR folks do, but I think really being able to articulate that and know that it's grounded in our core values and how we operate. But most recently, uh, we just pushed out a management operating system, and that was just to get- Hmm... all the managers aligned. It was built with their feedback in terms of, like, what are we looking for in managers?

Like, when we say you're a manager- Hmm... what are the expectations here? And ultimately align on, again, what is the purpose of a manager? We're a pretty flat organization, so it was pretty critical about nailing that because of the fact, like, managers are the leads, are m- are often team leads.

And so- Yeah... um, how I incorporated that was, again, being mindful of everyone's feedback, being able to integrate that. Um, and I think ultimately too, like, really laying out, uh, an operating system that was really reflective of how we operate versus it being aspirational or feeling too- Hmm... pie in the sky.

Like, I've... Even one example that someone had said was like, "I don't love feedback when it's like you don't have enough executive presence." Well, like, what does that mean? [laughs] You know?

Yeah. And really be- being really, uh-Thoughtful and clear about when we give feedback, like, what does that look like? And if it doesn't land well, like, how can I, as your partner in this, be able to workshop that kind of feedback, or workshop through this, like, maybe difficult or challenging situation? Um, so I think ultimately, to answer your question, I think sometimes it's just bringing back the human part of the human resources, the people part of people ops.

I think it gets so, uh, veiled as, like... I don't know, like, um, um, like, a separate part of, of the company. Yeah. And I like what you're saying about kind of grounding it in, like, the culture, and actually it sounds like you- you've had leaders themselves or possibly even a broader, uh, collective actually have a say in what that looks like and how it shows up in the workplace.

Is that, is that fair? Yeah. I mean, a- when I, when I first wrote our core values, I [laughs]... The story goes is that I actually just copied and pasted, uh, things from Tyler's newsletter.

Um, but the reality was is that they were all very true. Like, I couldn't manipulate even to be like, "This is not how we are." Like, it very much is true. And so, um, it- it's funny in that the one core value that I think all of us seem to always remember, everything is pretty, like I would say, aligned in terms of, like, being, you know, product-focused, et cetera, but it was that ego comes, uh, ego comes second but winning comes first, and that is just so representative, I think, of, like, who we are.

And again, when we're saying ego comes second, I think that also shows up in the room as well, 'cause, like, uh, when it's so palpable like that, or like, what is happening here? Like, I think there is something we- we are not discussing head-on, and, like, let's go ahead and, like, maybe address that first before we go into, like, you know, how does... implement it or execute or whatever the case might be. Okay.

Nice. I love it. Um, we've kind of gone from wellbeing back, uh, down to, uh, to sort of, like, leadership development. I'm really keen to- to stick with the theme, though.

Talk to me a bit about how you see the- the- the role of wellbeing evolving within organizations, and- and maybe just, I guess, sharing a bit more about what you're doing at- at Beehive. I know, um, I obviously just read your newsletter today about, uh, about wellbeing days. Uh, I know you and I have talked previously about other companies, like for example Clay having coaches who- who kind of play a bit of this role as well. Um, where do you think it- it's going a- a- amidst, like, an environment that I think is probably feeling pretty dire from a- a wellbeing perspective in most companies?

Yeah. So I would love to have said that I created wellness days at Beehive, but that was not the case. It was there before I even got there, and quite frankly, I didn't even question it. Like, when I read about it as a part of our benefits, I was like, "Yeah, that sounds about right."

And really the description was that we know folks work hard, so we want to also incorporate rest into a part of that, and that's how I've been explaining it. Like, we know that folks are grinding. We know folks work really hard. Like, there was a reason why we hired you, and as part of that, we do believe that rest is actually really part of performing really well.

And- and that was just it. But I think in having to really think through it, like, in my post, it was like, well, really we're thinking about a system here, and it's more about, like, rest is actually part of the performance system that we're building, and that it can't function without it. Um, I think so much of the... You know, there is obviously that hustle culture mindset, et cetera, and where, like, there is no rest, where I'm like, "Actually, you do need that."

And it's not like I'm preaching anything new, but I think what I'm really asking folks is to look at it as a system, and that it has to all work together in order for it to work. And another, like, metaphor that I was kind of, like, thinking about was, like, is this like working out? And I think it is. Like, you need recovery in order for you to get better or get stronger, right?

Like, if you don't have any recovery, you actually stop, like, gaining muscle, gaining et cetera. I don't know. I don't work out like that, but somebody else can help [laughs]... It- it fits.

[laughs] I- I think, I think, I think I'm not wrong in that aspect. [laughs] Based on following online sports, I think you're right. That feels right. Yeah, yeah.

[laughs] I was gonna say, I think following, like, other, uh, fitness creators, I think I'm on... I think I'm, um, aligned there. [laughs] You're on point, yeah. Another element I think that it's an important thing of, um...

Oh, actually, I know. I know where I was gonna go. So I was gonna ask you about, um, w- where you think the sort of the separation happens, or maybe it's another integration thing, between, like, a- a practice or a system that a- a company is building for its people versus that being, like, a personal responsibility. Because one of the things, the o- the other interesting things about Beehive is that you are fully remote.

You're- you're globally distributed, all these sorts of things, which is, you know, at a time when a lot of companies are shying away from that. How do you help, or where, I guess, where do you see the role of, like, the individual versus- versus the organization in, in, you know, ensuring that high performance system? I- I'll give you examples. Like, I remember in, um, I think it was the last startup I was a part of.

My- my manager very clearly was, um, uh, had said something similar, which is that this is a marathon, not a sprint. Like, we're not going to, you know, kill ourselves, burning ourselves out, um, in- in 12 months to- to ship something, because this is... You know, there's- there's often a 10-year horizon on these things, and we all need to be here for as- as long of a- a part of that, and being able to operate as effectively as possible. And so, um, really encouraged us not to- to, you know, work crazy hours and do things that were- were gonna jeopardize that.

Um, but in a remote environment, I found that personally incredibly difficult. Um, being globally distributed, you know, you tend to have someone online and working at every hour of the day, and I think when you've got a really vibrant culture, it's hard not to wanna be a part of that all the time. So that was something I personally had to kind of have a handle on. But how do you see that showing up within, within Beehive?

Yeah. I mean, I think there's almost two parts to that, right? In terms of the personal responsibility and the role of the org in terms of facilitating and maintaining that- that morale and culture to keep folks engaged and activated. Um, I will say that for me, I'm pretty candid in- in interviews that, like, this is a very high-performing, thriving environment, and so folks are excited to be here.

And it's like, if you're not down to drink the Kool-Aid, then it's gonna be a- a kind of a difficult...Environment for you. And it's just kind of where the stage of the company that we're at. We're not like 1,000-person company, right?

Like, it's still very small, high impact, high visibility. And again, that's all the reasons why you join a company this early is that you're able to and wanting to be able to build something and do work. And, you know, that- that's not to say that, like, it also doesn't have some downsides just as far as, like, being able to, like, work X amount. And I- I think, I- I think the reality is, is that, like, there...

The personal responsibility component comes from the individual. Like, how much are you willing to give? But also understand what are your guidelines. And this is a conversation that I have constantly, especially when we talk about burnout, and, like, what does that look like, or, like, how do I reset from that?

And the answer is that there is not a great answer for that. [laughs] Like, there are so many resources out there that talk about burnout, but the thing that I try to keep in mind is that, one, you can't boil the ocean, s- which is that you can't, you know, make everything happen overnight. But two, it's also, like, when you think about your span of control, like, what does that mean? And then ultimately too, it's your personal responsibility to figure out, like, what is your commitment to your work right now?

Like, how much are you willing to give? And maybe there are times where you're gonna pull back, and, like, that's also okay. And I guess, like, going back to the original question, because I'm so upfront about it, the intrinsic motivation has to be aligned, or else again, it's gonna be a really challenging, um, effort on- on- on both sides, right? Like, it's hard to pull someone to be engaged if they have no desire to be engaged.

And, like, for us, like, Slack is so active. Every time I get new contractors that join us or new folks that join us, they're like, "Your guys' Slack channels are, like, always, like, on." And it- it's true. It is.

Um, but I think again, it's like that level of excitement's so palpable that you want to be a part of it. But again, it is at your personal... I think you have to be confident and clear on your expectations of self to make sure that you are not also burning yourself out to a point of, like, ooh, this might not be sustainable. Um, I will say too, our company is a bit more mature, so I think a lot of that has also kind of evened itself out.

Um, had it be- been much more of, like, very, like, techy 20-something-year-olds, you know, on Celsius, like, might be a very different story. But because we've just kind of grown and matured, it- I think that also has, like, matured the way that we look at, uh, how we do work. Makes a lot of sense. And I- I- I think I like the point in particular that, like, you're pretty upfront about what it's like to work here, and I think that's- that's often something I think companies miss with that approach to try and appeal to everybody, like be all things to all people, and then they end up having people come in and- and it not work well from either a cultural perspective or- or whatever it is.

And I- I'm sure, like, from a hiring perspective, I'm sure it- it- it turns some people away. It's... There's some people who look at that culture and go, "It's not for me," and they wouldn't apply. But actually, that's really great for you because then you're not having to filter that application out yourself.

Yeah. So it makes a lot of sense that the people that kind of see that on face value and then apply or- or start to go through the process really do st- see the- the alignment, and it's... That's kind of a good fit before they actually come into the organization. I think, uh, like I also think to your point, some companies go on the inverse, right?

Where they're like, "We are a startup. Like, don't expect any rest," blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's not real- Yeah... either.

[laughs] You know? Yeah. Like, I think, uh, not to say that there's... I hate using the word balance when it comes to work 'cause it's just not something I fundamentally believe in, but there's always gonna be a different pull, right?

Maybe it's 80-20- Mm... 50-50. I don't know. But, like, the idea is that, like, you're able to have, you know, incredible inputs that the outputs also, um...

I guess the outputs are worth it, right? Like, I don't... I- I- I- Mm. Like, if we, if we weren't shipping quickly and delivering great results, I don't know if the wellness days, like, would have as much impact.

So because you're seeing high performance, it- it feels right to, yeah, to have that rest and- and reflection and whatever. Yeah. Yeah, because it's an output of, like, like, good output. Mm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense.

It makes sense. Um, I think another, like, thing that stood out to me, um, from our previous chats is, is as a core element of, like, wellness is this concept of psychological safety. And you've mentioned previously, like, having a pretty frank and open and direct relationship with Tyler, the CEO. I know, like, part of this by the sounds of it is- is kind of just an inherent part of- of his leadership potentially.

But I guess ta- talk to me a bit about how that relationship developed to that level and- and maybe anything you would encourage others to consider to try and, you know, try and replicate that. Yeah, it's funny. I didn't think I had a very honest or different relationship with my CEO until I, like, met with other HR folks and they were talking about their relationship with their CEOs, and I was like, oh, wow, like I've been pretty open relationship with- with Tyler. And I think a lot of it's just always 'cause it's been rooted in the work, rooted in the feedback.

And so it's not necessarily, like, to me and him, I don't think it's, like, out of, out of line or out of place. Like, it feels very part of, like, what we're there to do, right? Like, my- my output, my goals are always about, like, the people. [laughs] So he also really cares about the people.

So oftentimes when we go and have our conversations or we talk about things, it is again grounded in the same goal, which is like we wanna make sure people enjoy working here, 'cause like your retention and outputs, et cetera. Um, in terms of, like, how we got there, I think, I have to say in large part probably is very much Tyler's, like, leadership style and working style. Like, I think he's already been so upfront about kind of who he is. And, like, I mean, I've called it, it's almost like it's what you see is what you get.

Like, when folks read his stuff, they're like, "Oh my god, is that Tyler like that in real life?" And I'm like, "Yeah, pretty much." [laughs] Like, there's not a huge departure of, like, what he posts and what he shares versus, like, who he is as a leader. And so I think he already set that tone so that me and him could have that kind of honest conversation.

And also when I joined we were about 17 people, so there wasn't a lot of layer... There's still not a lot of layers, but there still... There wasn't a lot of layers of bureaucracy in how we functioned. And so, um, I think early on it, whether or not, like, it was intentional-I think it just became the foundation of how we just continued to build, like our relationship.

And when we do things like performance reviews or our version, which is called replays, like I was like very honest about like what I thought about things. And like even reading back on it, I was like, "Dang, that's like really honest." Like, I didn't even like... I- And it wasn't like it was created and developed like maliciously or hurtful.

It was very pr- like constructive feedback, and he took it in stride. And like I think that's like what you want in a leader, especially someone that is really, you know, the reflection of the company, and what he does and what he thinks is a top-down effect to the, to the company. Yeah, okay. Interesting.

And was it something that you found yourself like looking for in that next role? Like, were you like, I guess, interviewing Tyler for those sorts of things when you were considering the role? Is it, or is it something that sort of just happened organically? Okay, I don't think he remembers this.

I think, I, unless I'm making it up in my memories [laughs] which is also very could possibly happen, but I think when I first was interviewing him... So context, I met Tyler through Twitter, and we just like messaged each other, and he was like, "Hey, I'm not at a place yet where I need to hire a people ops person, but I'd love to keep in touch." So we like kept in touch, and he would just keep me updated on how things were growing. And so when we finally, when he was finally like, "Hey, I would love to hire a people ops person.

Are you interested?" Um, you know, we, we're... I was like, "Yeah, very much so because I've been part of this journey." Which, again, in hindsight was very reflective of Tyler.

But, uh [laughs] and, and, um, in, in our interviewing, I think one of the questions that I asked him, and maybe this is very m- not maybe, it is, like very much PTSD from previously, uh, previous work experience, especially with co-founders. I was like, "On a scale of one to 10, how would you rate yourself as a jerk?" [laughs] Like, I need to know like what is your working style? How much of a jerk can you be?

Like, I need examples. I need, I need to understand this a little bit because I knew that we were... Like undoubtedly just this role, right, there's gonna be butting of heads, so I need to know how do you handle conflict essentially is what I was asking, right? Yes.

[laughs] I like this question way better though. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] And he was like, "Well," I think he was like, "Maybe like," he's like, "I think maybe like I'm like a five, six. Like, if I feel really strongly about something, maybe I'm a little bit more bullish where it could come off a little bit more like a jerk.

But generally," he's like, "I try to be really open." And he's very much like lived up to that. There are very few times I'm like, "Tyler, you're being a jerk." You know what I mean?

Like, it's like I can understand when he was very bullish on something, and that is very clear and he'll say it. Like, "I know I'm being very bullish on this, and it's the right time for it." But I'm like, "I think you're like kind of bulldozing. Th- like, thoughts here.

Maybe you should take a step back." And again, like it, it, it makes it really clear. He's also just really excited too, so I think once you kind of understand those components, it's like less about him being a jerk and more about, okay, I can see that you're really excited, so you're really wanting to push this idea through. And again, makes it more, uh...

I don't know if easier is the right word, but just it makes it... It gives me data points on how I wanna navigate. 'Cause I've also been on the other side where I've worked with co-founders who just thought, you know, for lack of a better phrase, like that their shit don't stink, and I'm like, "That's not fun to work with either." [laughs] And it makes it so hard to navigate and grow and evolve the company because, again, these were also early stage founders too.

And so when they think that like, not to say they were ever wrong, but it, that they were always right or they felt like their opinion mattered the most and made it known, then it, it didn't really necessarily craft the strongest foundation for, for us to like build a relationship on. Yeah, I think so often they have such a strong, clear view, like a vision of, of what they want the company and the product, and they seem to look like that. Sometimes it, it does, uh, expand, that confidence expands into other areas where maybe, yeah, they're, they're...

it's not as helpful, I guess. Um, but I'm also sure that everyone listening to this is madly scrambling and writing down that, uh, that question- [laughs]... for future interviews. I was gonna ask you how he, how he responded on the flip side and, uh, or, or how he, how, how things are actually on the flip side and, uh, and whether or not he was, uh, he was a five or a six 'cause I think that's the hard thing, isn't it?

It's like it obviously requires a lot of s- like self-awareness as an individual to be able to say a number and, um, and I guess the, the question is a nice way of being able to gauge whether or not people have that as well 'cause I'm sure there'd be plenty of people who'd be like, "No, I'm a one," or, you know- [laughs] Yeah, right... something like that and- Exactly. If he had said one- You can see through it... it would've been problematic.

If he said 10, it would've been problematic too. So the fact that he was like at least gauging, right? He's like, "If I had to take a guess, like maybe this is where I'm at." Like, at least to me, I'm like signaled, to your point, there's some self-awareness there, so it's not like all is lost.

'Cause I've have been with founders who were just completely delusional about how they work, and I'm like, "Mm, that's not really great either." Yeah. I wanna go back to the point you made about how, um, the relationship that you have seems quite unique compared to other peers in the industry. What would be some like principles or philosophy or some elements of like the way that shows up for you and how you can be a champion for that kind of relationship that you think others would benefit from?

It's a great question. Um, honestly, I would say it's similar to dating, where it's like you kinda wanna make sure you're evaluating, asking the right things in terms of like what are your values? Are your values aligned? Are your working styles aligned?

Like, it's the reason why people get so excited when they get that like questionnaire when you first start and you're like, "What is your working style?" Because then you get a better sense of like, who is this person I'm partnering up with? And similar to dating, right, the question is like, are we a team? Are we, are we focusing on the right things together?

Do you give a shit about me? Do you give a shit about the people that work with you? Do you give a shit about people who work for you? And I, I think like understanding that very early on can help you navigate and have the type of conversations that you're looking to have and/or set the tone of how you have these conversations.

Uh, 'cause it can be very easily swayed where it's like, "Oh, you don't seem super open to feedback. I'm terrified to share with you feedback," right? Or like-You don't seem... I don't know yet if I'm ready to share feedback with you.

But I think the thing that... And again, maybe it was out of, out of circumstance, 'cause we were small, is that I think me and Tyler just, like, could afford to be honest and vulnerable and open about what we thought about things. And sometimes that wasn't always the case, right? Like, there are times where I'm like, "I think I need to think this through a little bit before I bring this up to you."

And so, like, it may feel like I've been holding onto for this for a really long time. But I think ultimately when you have these conversations, context is so important, so as long as you're always bringing back the context to the conversation, then I think hopefully the goal is then you can have a much more dynamic relationship versus it being, like, you know, more tr- less transactional. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's, um, so much of it I think, yeah, for you, you have to kind of be guided by the, the vibe of it or the feel of it and, and kind of get a sense for, like, is there a way to, to, I guess, build on the relationship in, in some of those ways.

And, um, and sometimes I guess you would feel like the door's a little bit closed to that as well, and you have to, have to respond to those feelings too. Um, I was gonna ask you, like, what, what, what's sort of next, do you think, or, or what are some areas, uh, w- within that sort of wellbeing, um, you know, umbrella that you think Beehive is also doing really well or, or things that you wanna sort of have next on your, your agenda in terms of improving? So I think the wellness days, again, that was something I never experienced before.

I've had, like, folks... I've had myself, and, like, others have had days where it's, like, a mental health day, right? But that's, like, so circumstance based, where this is really, like, actually pretty consistent, happens every third Friday of the month. We know that it's there.

And because folks are working so hard or sometimes they don't think about PTO, it's a forcing, forcing mechanism to take some time off, right? To be like, "Okay, today's the day I'm not gonna actually open my laptop." So I think they do that really well. And, um, as far as just, like, even my role, um, a big part, and it's something I wrote about too, is that I, up until maybe recently, because we're now to 135, I talk to every employee.

Like, I want to know about their lives, and I want to know what makes them tick, and I want to know what they're looking for, and, like, being upfront about expectations too, right? Because we're a flat organization, so growth isn't the same as it would be in a different organization that had more of that s- uh, you know, traditional ladder. So it's- Hmm... just, like, making sure that, like...

Sorry, my dog wants to be part of this interview too. [laughs] Oh, good. Hello, Mario. [laughs] Um, that, like, y- yeah, that, like, it, it is so ingrained into that.

Um, one of the things that I'm excited about, uh... So we did... I kinda mentioned this before, but, like, we do our own version of performance reviews where we- Mm-hmm... decouple, um, the, uh, reflective portion and the comp reviews.

And that was- Mm-hmm... again, by design because I think generally speaking, like, not, or all of us don't like doing performance reviews. [laughs] Like, they're a lot. Yeah.

They're a lot on the ind- I'd say the majority. [laughs] Yeah. They're pretty me- they're a pretty meaty task, right, and for a lot of- Yeah... the managers.

So wanting to redefine that experience, but also figuring out, like, what was the value of, like, of, of performance reviews. And the value really was the ability to review your, your work, your contributions on a macro level, right? 'Cause there are very few times when you're able to zoom out and take a look at your work. 'Cause usually on your one-on-ones, you're looking more at, like, the micro moments, what's happening in front of you, right?

Very few times can you, like, say, like, "Oh, in the last six months this is what I accomplished." So using that as, like, the data point to kinda guide this exercise, um, what we did was, like, again, separate comp reviews and really had, uh, the replay portion or reflection portion be focused on, like, what are the... what are your macro contributions? What would you do again and what wouldn't you do again?

What worked? What didn't work? And just allow for that space to be really devoted to, focused on, on, on, on your own reflection. Um, and I think it's part of, like, uh, when we talk about wellness, like, reflection is critical to self-growth and, and, and self-awareness and being able to articulate and have ultimately meaningful conversations with your manager, right?

Like, that was the... that's the goal of these performance reviews, to figure out, like, where am I? How do I make sense of these things? Like, what is next for me?

And then from a comp perspective, because it's not contingent on... or your comp reviews are not contingent on your replays, again, it allows for a bit more honesty of self, which again, I don't think a lot of folks want to do on a performance review 'cause you're like, "Well, shit- Yeah... if I do that, they're not gonna give me a comp, or I'm not gonna get a raise- Yeah... or a promo or whatever."

We're here- So I have to posture a bit more for the, for the incentive, yeah. Yeah. Here it's more welcomed. And, um, so yeah.

And so now we have twice a year, uh, replays, so usually, like, at the end of, you know, h- H1 and H2, and then we do- Mm-hmm... comp reviews four times a year, and that's because, again, the way that our... the way that we work, we just work so quickly, that this feels very reflective of our work. Um- Mm-hmm...

because I think, again, so much can happen in a quarter. So- Yeah... for us it feels, uh, motivating, and the incentive is right to know that, like, okay, there are opportunities for me to get a promo or a raise throughout the year, knowing that it's not contingent on this performance review or this reflection. Okay.

I feel like I, um, I have so many questions. Um, I, I feel like a lot of companies sort of, uh, romanticize or idealize this idea of separating, uh, pay and performance, but never, either ne- either never get there, or they maybe do it in a way that doesn't feel, uh, like it's been done effectively.You mentioned, so the re- the reflection doesn't influence the pay. So does that mean merit-based pay isn't a thing?

Or how does... Like, talk to me a bit about the, the, the comp side of the equation. Yeah. So it is merit-based, and there's promo.

So that's still, like, very, I would say, traditional in that capacity. Like, you are still being based on, like, your performance. And, like, your performance is a culmination, we talked about it being a system, right- Mm-hmm... of, like, all these things.

Um, so it doesn't take it away. If anything, just reinforces. Like, to me, when I read cer- like, my own, my own replays, and when I look back at them, I'm like, "Oh, wow, that was, like, a really interesting point of view that I had about how we approach this thing," and I don't feel that way anymore. So I can actually really see that growth.

So when I go to Tyler and we talk about, you know, my upcoming promo or whatever, I'm like, "Hey, I actually noticed that in my reviews," and we can look at it together, or my replays, that, like, there is a s- there is a shift here, or I feel more confident in this part that wasn't, that wasn't where I was as confident previously. Uh, so it all adds up. And, again, we're a pretty flat organization in that it's high visibility, so if your manager doesn't know what you're doing, [laughs] then I think that's actually the problem, versus it being, like, whether or not, are, do you, are you, uh, getting awarded or rewarded or acknowledged for your, for your work, for your merit.

Yeah. Okay. I was gonna ask you, like, how... 'Cause I think one of the other challenges that companies run into with, like, separating pay from performance, um, motions, is that people feel like they're kind of...

The, the, the performance process happens, and there's kind of an acknowledgement of an uplift of, of some kind of performance or you're operating at a higher role, but then they have to wait even longer to get the kinda like monetary outcome. It sounds like you've kind of beaten that by having four cycles a year. But, man, that sounds hectic. How, what...

Tell me a bit about how that runs [laughs] and doesn't just take up your entire year. Yeah. It's a good question. I think, um, well, there's, there are some parameters, right?

So in that, like, for example, a person generally cannot get a raise and a promo in the same year. So, like, making that a little bit easier for us, right? 'Cause then, 'cause, uh, to do the backwards math on that would just feel like a lot. So generally, there's some parameters there.

I'm a team of... Well, now I'm a team of two, but I was a team of one. Our finance team was a team of one up until recently. [laughs] So I would say for us, not that it was easier, but I think it just allowed us to move faster because the communication was pretty straightforward for us, right?

Like, if a manager was like, "Hey, really want X person to get a raise," um, you know, they're hitting their one year, they really showed XYZ, um, you know. We do have, like, outlined percentages about, like, w- you know, what would constitute, like, small, medium, large, or et cetera. And they're like, "I feel like they deserve X percentage," then me and, me and our, my finance person would go ahead and work through that and make sure that it was aligned with budgets. And if we're like, "I got the approval from finance," I'll let the manager know, and then we'll usually try to map it out so then it's like end of quarter, that person's raise or promo's effective.

So it, it really is more so just about timing. Um, but I think we've been fortunate right now [laughs] that it's a bit... It's not as ad hoc as it used to be, for sure. And do you think that would change just given, like, the current size of Bhi?

I guess everything's up for, [laughs] up for change really at this time, isn't it? But- Yeah, I mean, like, I think it, I think I, I would, I would be naive to think if it didn't change, right? Like, I think we're, like, close, closing in on 150, and, like, you know, anything org psychology has said that, like, 150 is where everything changes. So I think it, I think we are flexible, and it's a good framework.

And if we modify that framework, that's totally fine. Yeah. Okay. Cool.

And I guess last question on this, and then I'm keen to, to dive into the kinda operating system piece a little bit more, is like, so you've, you've got these reflections. Um, obviously the, the merit review piece happens separately from a timeframe perspective. But i- is, is that done in a way that's like... I guess I'm, I'm keen to understand how that, like, reflection is, like, safeguarded because you're right, it's, like, such a hard thing to get right within organizations.

I think I always, I always hear about companies or, or, or work with companies that kind of espouse this, like, you know, continuous feedback and, and that sort of mantra, and it's like I think that's a really hard, uh, habit to build. And then I, I very much agree with you that, like, you know, the, the second people get a sense that actually they're incentivized to, you know, say they've done something that they haven't, so not be, like, true and, and honest about how things have gone, it, it kinda disrupts the bandwidth.

And how, how do you, like, help ensure through these two things that you, like, insulate the two really effectively? Is the question, how do we encourage that level of honesty i- in, in, in the replays? Yeah, I think, I think so because, like, if you've got, like, you've still got merit, um, like, merit's still obviously an important part of, of the comp review process. Does that, is that sort of fed by something else?

Or, like, what, what's the design there? I don't wanna be a broken record, but I do think it is a, a function of, like, top-down, right? Like- Mm-hmm... it has to be set, this level of transparency and openness and willing to- Yeah...

self-evaluate. So an example- Yeah... of this is that we all read as a leadership team, uh, that Netflix blog. Where am I at?

What is it? Oh, the, uh, no rules rules? Is that the one? Yeah, no rules rules, right?

And there was- Yeah... a segment about sunshining, which is when, um, employees would share, particularly managers, senior managers, leadership, about areas in where they could improve or where they made a mistake, right? Really normalizing the idea of mistakes. And so once we read that, Tyler was like, "I love sunshining.

We have to make this a thing." And so we do actually have a sunshining channel on Slack, and folks do use it to talk about, like, "Here's the error that I made, here are the improvements, uh, and here's what I can do better." So it again, it is very much, um, started from the top and is then encouraged at all levels. And so when you look at that channel, you'll see Tyler, you'll see, um, our CTO, you'll see senior leaders, like, saying, like, "I made a mistake and this is how I'm looking to fix that."

Or, like, engineers being like, "I pushed this really quickly without doing proper diligence, and I see the impact-"So I think once you have that already as like just the, even the foundation, then I think ideally, right, it, it encourages that level of openness in a more, uh, in a more, uh, secure, intimate space, right? 'Cause it's just between you and your manager when you do the replays. Um, so again, it ha- I think it ha- it has to be a function, uh, from the top to really set the tone of like how do we wanna talk about honesty, how do you wanna talk about transparency?

And some... And the thing is, it's not always easy and it's not always pretty, right? Some of- sometimes that transparency can be ugly, and so how do you navigate that? How do you navigate the crunchier pieces about self-development and growth, or like having those uncomfortable conversations about performance and where folks need support in?

I was gonna say, I, I think you're right. Like a lot of, uh, certainly I think it's, it's a well-known truth that a lot of companies talk about wanting these things, but actually seeing the senior leadership team weigh in and actually be leaders in that space is, is very novel, and so it's, it's, it's still to this day, like [laughs] you're right, it's like you're, you're not being a broken record. I feel like as an industry and as a profession, it's like something that we're, everyone's constantly talking about but still just seems so rarely done.

It's like actually it needs to be sponsored by, like from the top down You have to get buy-in... I think. You have to get buy-in from them or n- it doesn't matter. Like if Tyler wasn't involved and didn't care, I don't think the sunshining channel would've been a thing, to be quite honest.

Like it, it's so important to get their buy-in to be able to, uh, support your decisions as people person to ensure these things, or else like it, it just doesn't go far. And then you often feel undermined it, right? If it like doesn't go well, or it does go well and you're not real- they're not really involved. So it just, I think you have to get buy-in from your leadership team.

Yeah. Yeah. It's the golden rule, isn't it? Um, w- I wanna revisit this piece we talked about with like, you know, output and velocity and, and performance and things like that as a, as an organization.

I know, um, you've, you've kind of got this operating system that works well within Beehive. I, I love that you've got this sunshining channel where you talk about mistakes, 'cause I think there is this threshold between moving really quickly and being very high performant, and the fact that mistakes will happen and that it's good to own them and reflect on how you can improve and things like that. But it's, I'd love to hear a bit about like how this operating system works for the company, and then like how, how it looks inside the People Ops team too.

W- so when you talk about like when we, when... Is the question around like how do we balance essentially, I hate using the word balance, how do we manage velocity while also being true to, uh, like accountab- to being accountable for these things? Yeah. And, and like what's the operating system that supports that?

Like I'm, I've f- I think off the top of my head it was like another book, Traction was the one that- Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm gonna-... is kind of the operating system's based on.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that, I, I, I understand your question now.

Sorry. It was like, I was like, I don't know if we have an o- I mean, we have processes. I don't know if we have like a formal [laughs] operating system. Um, yeah.

So, uh, this actually came from Tyler's time at, um, at Morning Brew, 'cause when I joined we didn't really have OKRs or any variations of, of goals and objectives. Like it was very much like future driven, which was fine at the time for what we were trying to do, right? Mm-hmm. And so as we would start to mature we were like, "Okay, we need to actually have a framework that allows us to, uh, measure our impact," right?

Like, you can only... What is that saying? Like, it's only... What?

Like in order to be one or whatever. There's that whole saying about being measured that impact. Some- someone, someone out there super smart said something about that. [laughs] And so, um, so yeah.

Like it, uh, so I've always been familiar with OKRs. I've never done anything with like Rocks or using Traction, but, uh, Morning Brew did. And so, uh, basically all of leadership read the book, and like what comes out of it is a few things. So you come together and cr- you create a set of core values, um, based on, you know, what do you want your company to be?

How do y- The way that I've always seen core values is that like how do you want your employees to act behind closed doors? And so using that as a bit of a guideline of like, okay, like how do we want employees to act? Like when they're making decisions, how... When they connect with partners, like what are the values that are really important for us to shine through?

So there's that component. And then you do the exercise of like, you know, what's your year plan, what's your three years plan, what's your 10-year plan? And, and then you go through the other exercise of which is like how do you rightsize your company against the role? So there's just a lot of information to help you evaluate like where you are as a business, which is a great foundation 'cause then once you get into, um, developing goals, so we do follow Traction's, uh, uh, system, which is, uh, yeah, based on Rocks.

So like first, it's not dissimilar to honestly like how you see OKRs, but you have like your company rocks, you have your team rocks, and you have your individual rocks. Our company rocks are owned by leadership, and then team rocks are all supposed to build up to said company rocks to make sure that we hit those rocks. Um, it's not easy. I think adoption [laughs] around OKRs in general, especially when it's like not necessarily as impactful of on an IC level.

But what we did recently is, um, so, uh, we did a sur- we did a pulse survey not too long ago with our org about like how impactful do you feel rocks are? And those learnings were super helpful because it made us understand like not only from a framing perspective, but like also like how do we make it matter to you, right? [laughs] Like I, I, I think it's one thing to be like, "It's measurable and we're using like the right language," but like none of that really matters if it doesn't matter to the person.

So it was reevaluating like how do we, like, you know, the what's in it for you component of this, and that's changed a lot of how we talked about it, and also again, how do we bring it up and like the consistency of it, and the reason why it has to be consistent. So again, from the top down, like every all-hands we go through our rocks, our company rocks together. So we're all... Like everyone should know what the rocks are.

Like what is the most important thing that we have to focus on as a company right now? And then managers are now encouraged to do reviews of the rocks weekly and we s- and so on and so forth. So, um, yeah. It took, it, it's all-I think the thing that I really appreciate about us is that we're okay with evolving, right?

Like, it's not supposed to be nail it perfect. Like, I think it's very much like test and iterate and tweak and tweak as we go, which is, I think, very reflective of how we build things too, right? Like, we- like, if it's about velocity, it's like, how do we get there first? How do we make the best product first?

And then, like, how do we continue to evolve it with feedback, et cetera. Mm-hmm. And it's the same way with, like, our replays. It's the same way with, like, for, um, yeah, like this opera- uh, with our framework for goals.

And so, uh, nothing is set in stone, which is nice. Yeah. I think you hit on, like, a really important question that I, I think very few companies would ever do, which is, like, actually asking whether or not the goal-setting framework is working for us. Like, do you know what they are?

Do you know how they relate to your work? Like, this, it's, you know, purpose is so core and fundamental to people actually wanting to get out of bed and, and do a great job in the morning, and I think a lot of companies sleep on it. And I love the fact that you've kind of... You're like, "Look, we've got this framework.

It's, it's not gonna be perfect, but it's kind of where we wanna head directionally." Mm-hmm. "And then, yeah, we will evolve it into something that works for us and, and, you know, make sure it does kind of fulfill its core function, which is to give us a direction and, and help us know when we've got there," and all those sorts of things, right? Like, it's, it's, it's probably...

Yeah, I think it probably just builds on all of the cultural elements that we've talked about that, that exist within Beehive, that you actually, like, give people that voice and that ability to say whether or not something's working or if they've not understood it or, or whatever it is. Yeah. It's almost like, you know how folks, like, really dig in on people analytics and, like, who's the most productive, et cetera, et cetera. Like, yeah, great.

I love, I love that data. But also, what about the data that actually means something to the individual, right? Like, I think we don't do enough spotlighting of that. Um, and I know there's, like, team engagement surveys and pulse surveys, and then, and that's all true, and that's, like, what we did, right?

But I think those are, like, the framing of it. Like, you know, it, it... Like, not only do we ask, then I share, like, the results, like, immediately. So again, they know where their answers are going.

We address it. There's an action plan in place. Um, a- and so I'd like to think that, like, again, like, when we say your, your input, your feedback matters, like, it really does. Yeah.

No, I think it's, it's, it, it... I'm sure it means a lot to a lot of people that, that they have that kind of forum to actually be able to give those sorts of, uh, thoughts and feelings and feedback and, and so on. Yeah. I mean, the thing about, like, constant feedback is that it's constant.

And so it's always so interesting in the ways in which people decide to share and, like, you know, figure out things, but I welcome all of it. I think we are in a space where... You know, I- have you heard of, like, Bridgewater, that company? The company?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, right? And like- The capital... The, they say something, yeah.

Yeah, their whole way of being, like, honest, but, like, to, almost to its detriment. And then you have- Yeah... on the other side, like, radical candor, and I'm like, I think we all just function in a, on a spectrum of that, right? [laughs] Like- Yeah...

give kind and direct feedback without being a jerk. [laughs] Like, I think there are ways to do that. Yeah, yeah, without being a 10 on the, on the jerk scale. Yeah.

[laughs] Yeah, you know? Like, I think, like, yeah. And I think that's something that I always have to remind myself is, like, okay, like, this, we, like, we can, we can navigate through this. Yeah, I love it.

I'm, I'm curious what role you think remote work has played in, in, like, this kind of environment that you've talked about, which is high-performant. It's filled with A players. I, I don't... I certainly don't wanna get into, like, a remote versus in-office, but I'm just really curious to, like, hear from you whether or not you think it has been a contributor.

Um, I'd love to hear why you think so many companies are shying away from it these days. Um, yeah, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I think for us it's about talent, right? The idea that, like, talent can be anywhere.

And so, like, being able to pursue that and find the best person for the role. But ultimately, this is a, you know, very much my perspective, not a Beehive, but I'm like, I think it's because it allows you to be treated like an adult. Like, you are responsible for your time management, you're responsible for your deliverables, and so I think people who thrive at that, I, I... or enjoy that, I think for them it's an optimal environment, right?

Because a lot of our employees are parents or they just have things to do. [laughs] And so your traditional 9:00 to 5:00 doesn't necessarily super support that. But with, like, being remote, it does allow for parents to be able to step away to do drop-off, do pick, all those things, right? And again, it's a forcing mechanism to be decent at time management or else, like, you're screwed if you don't have your deliverables or, you know, whatever the, the, that might be.

And you know, I, I think you're right. Like, I don't know if there's a remote versus in-person, because there is value in being in person as well. I will say, do I think it's... I mean, I have strong opinions about being in office five days a week, only because I'm like, I can't imagine my life like that anymore.

But you know, if it works for some people, it works for some people. It depends also kind of the environment that you are creating, too. Like, I think about, like, super creative, like, agencies. Like, I think, yeah, you probably wanna be in person.

I can imagine that makes a lot more sense. Where here, where a lot of it is about we focus on autonomy and building and collaborating, but also being able to figure out ways to do that asynchronously, I think it works for us. Um, and I don't try to pretend either, right? That, like, in order to be part of the culture and being, and feeling belonged and w- and all those things, it's like you kind of have, you have to engage, or else, like, no one's gonna pull you out to be like, "Here, join us," right?

Like, yeah, there will be encouragement, but also you have to be wanting of that, too. Yeah, you really have to have that kind of, um, that intrinsic motivation, that drive. I, I agree with you completely about it being a forcing mechanism. I mean, it's so funny, 'cause I, a lot of, like...

I, and I don't even think they're, like, against remote work, but I think a lot of people that are just curious about it. Like, the most common question I get is, like, how do you know when someone's doing their job? And it's like, guys, we're so connected now. [laughs] Yeah.

[laughs] Like, if you know now. Like, this, I'm gonna... You know? Yeah.

And it's like, I, I could wake up and within a few hours know whether or not my colleagues, like, in my team have been online or done stuff or what. Like, it's... And again, I think it, it ties in a lot to these ways of work, and the transparency piece, and all these sorts of things. Like, if someone, if someone can do nothing for a week and nobody notices, like, that's, that's a company issue.

That's not a in-person, remote issue by all means. And, um, I think you're right. It just, it, it does-It does require you to be this certain person to, to be able to thrive in that kind of environment and not be someone... I actually, I think I've evolved a lot in this.

Like, I used to be someone who, before COVID, if I, if I was working from home, um, I would probably really struggle. And I still get a lot of like, um, energy from being in an office environment. But you can build the practices, and you can build the ways of work to ensure that, you know, and now I've been working remotely for, like, five or six years, that you do just, like, you deliver, and you, you, you know how to do it effectively. Yeah, I agree.

It's funny 'cause even b- before COVID, I was part of an agency, and they were hybrid. Uh- Mm-hmm... and I was just like I could not wrap my head around, like, uh, remote work. I was like, "How are you guys doing this?"

[laughs] And now I'm like, oh, it's so second nature. But to your point, I also know when it's a good time to also be in person. Like, it doesn't... I guess for me, and I think that's what Tyler believes in too, it doesn't have to be necessarily either/or.

It's just like this is the foundation, which is remote work, but however we create those touch points, so we have those in-person meetups- Mm-hmm... to work, to collaborate, et cetera. So, like, we have our upcoming off-site in next month. And so again, like, those are just, um, key temples of, like, which we connect and, and, you know, make use of that time together.

All right. Last thing I wanna visit on, uh, or touch on, um, before we wrap up is that it's probably unsurprising given where you work that you do have a newsletter. [laughs] I, I love that I think as a profession we're kind of undergoing this change towards, like, more open sourcing and more talking about what it is that we're doing and being less, like, secretive and, and, and private about how it is that we work. I'd love to hear, um, I mean, I obviously have a newsletter, which I'll, I'll talk about, you know, this interview in that newsletter.

Like, what, what has that meant for you having that space, and, like, what do, do you encourage others to, to do similarly? So as part of, like, Beehiiv's onboarding, um, every employee is actually asked to create a newsletter. So it's like- [laughs]... kind of already built it into the culture.

I mean, you go to dog food, right? You go to- Exactly. Yeah. Dog fooding all day every day.

And, um, so but, you know, again, already part of that. And funny enough, a lot of it the ask was like, um, we, like, need more HR newsletters, and I was like, "Really? That's so interesting." Um, and for me, what's been really n- nice about this experience is it's that it's allowing me to grow in public and develop in public, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, here are the things that we're doing here. And like, you know, I, I wrote about the one time, like, we mes- I messed up horribly and, like... Or, like, w- you know, I thought the team wanted this thing, and it was not that thing.

And I learned the hard way about, like, that is not the thing to do. And, um, I don't know. I, I, I think it just showcases another side of the person behind, you know, the people ops title. But, uh, I don't know.

I, I guess it also depends on the kind of person, right? Like, for me, this is very much an output of creativity. I firmly believe- Mm-hmm... that my creativity is around connection, and this is a way for me- Mm...

to stay connected to folks who feel similar or in similar verticals, and ultimately back to my company. Like, I know Tyler reads my emails, which is always- [laughs]... me in some way too. [laughs] And so, you know, like, he'll respond back like, "This is good."

I'm like, "Great." [laughs] Thank God. Just does the dad thumbs up sort of- Yeah... response.

Like we're friends again. Yeah. Okay. Or like he'll be like, "Yeah, like, we should do this thing."

I'm like, "We do do this thing, dude." [laughs] It's already happening. It's already happening. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if that really answers your question as much as, like, I just think that, like, a, why not be multifaceted? Why not talk about why not sunshine, I guess? It's not like I'm, like, blurting out secrets by any means, right?

It's like why can't we just share the things that are working for us, you know? Like, I went to, like, an HR dinner a couple of weeks... Last week or something like that, and we were talking about AI enablement. And I was like, "Oh, thank God.

I can't talk about AI enablement anymore." However, coming out of that conversation, that dinner, I was like, oh, my God, I actually have a lot of insights of, like, how do we think about AI enable it from an ops perspective? Like, how do we integrate that in onboarding? How do we prep up teams so that it's not the scary thing, but it's like we learn as we go, right?

And so, like, the language even around AI. And so, um, and that's just because people were just talking and sharing, right? Like, it felt like they were sharing company secrets or things that were, like, confidential, and it was like, oh, that's so interesting to know about that. Um, even, like, the wellness days, for example, a lot of people don't have that, and I was like, yeah, me neither, and this is, like, why it's helpful.

And like, you, we're still doing it. And, like, who knows? Maybe someone else from another company is gonna be like, "Hey, I heard that Beehiiv actually has wellness days. Seems like it's working for them.

Is that something we should pilot?" All you need to do is plant the seed, right? And I think that's, like, maybe why I'm excited about folks writing about things, so it's like just planting seeds. Yeah.

And I think that's the biggest case for it ever is that it's like not all of us have, know all the answers to how to, you know, build people functions, and I think there's so much to be said for being able to see how others are, are going at it and, you know, and learn from them and take inspiration from them. I think you're right. Like, you know, and, and I don't know if that's... I don't know what the, the numbers around it are, but it certainly feels like HR newsletters and, and that kind of discourse is incredibly low.

So I think there's a, a huge opportunity. And if anyone's listening, 'cause I'm a massive proponent of, of people open sourcing what they're doing, um, yeah, like I think you can probably have a lot more impact if you are in the HR profession and, and wanting to write about this stuff because there just isn't really a lot of places to, to go with it. And it's also evolving, right? 'Cause, like, the way that we talk...

I mean, the fact that we're called people operations or people and culture, right, it's signal of, like, how that's also evolving. So it's like if we're not even o- we're not sharing or we're not open about how we are evolving the work, then it's, like, puts us back into the box. And, um, I didn't start my career in people op, so for me, I'm not married to the certain ideals that I think often, like, HR is tied to. But that being said, doesn't mean that they're wrong.

So it's like, again, how do you pull and meet tradition with modernity, and also with the times, and also with, like, ultimately care, right? And, like, where you decide to work. Um, 'cause yeah, if this was a very... If Beehiiv was a very cold company, I think we'd know from the get.

[laughs] And, um-I hope that's not the case, but also I like to think that's not the case. And I'm usually, I'm usually like the first person most folks see on their first day, so Oh, I love it. Well, look, we're, we're, we're coming up on time, so I really appreciate, um, how open you've been with, with me and the audience and all the things we've covered, some incredible, uh, areas with respect to, to, to wellness and how that shows up in the organization. We've touched on the operating system and how ingrained that is in the culture, and of course, we've encouraged everyone to start their own newsletter.

Uh, is there any, any, uh, final wisdom or advice you'd wanna leave with anyone who's, who's, uh, yeah, just looking for how they can be more successful in their roles? I think don't be afraid to try and experiment. The worst case is somebody says no, right? But replays was something that we were talking about, and I was like, "Hmm, maybe, maybe Tyler might be open to it.

Who knows?" And he was. And like, now it's something that I'm really proud of, right? And that was just based off of like, I'm just curious to think about this in a different way.

And I think if you, again, plant the seed, uh, you know, again, worst thing that someone can say is no. Yeah. I've, I've... I tell people all the time, like ask, because I...

it's given me so much in my career, and the worst case is they do say no, and, and you're just in the same position. But, um, actually there's so much more upside to be gained by, by just asking. So- Yeah... that is, uh, that is sage wisdom.

Well, Isadora, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it and, um, yeah, gained a lot from the conversation. Yeah. If you need anything else, let me know.

Happy to be here. Thanks for joining us on another edition of the Foundation Series. [upbeat music] Make sure to head over to our website to subscribe to the Foundation Series for monthly editions featuring future interviews on startup compensation. In each edition, we'll explore the different strategies, trends, and challenges faced by startups around the world.

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