From Individual Contributor to Inspiring Leader: Building Winning Sales Cultures with Alyson Baber

Speaker A: Welcome to Revops Revolution, where we focus on changing the game for driving revenue. I'm your host, Jesse Morris. In each episode, we take a look at the different areas that affect change and drive revenue across your organization. If this is your first time joining us, please subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episode. Here's the revolution. Welcome to another day of the Revolution. I'm your host, Jesse Morris, and today I'm excited to welcome Allison Baber on the line and to the podcast. Welcome.

Speaker B: Thanks, Jesse. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Most definitely. So Allison is a fellow Coloradan, which is, uh, something I absolutely love. And she also loves the outdoors, which if you guys haven't been here, definitely check it out. Allison has led some really well known sales teams, respected companies, Intuit, Zoom outreach, uh, and also you were at Zoom during the pandemic, which is just super fascinating. Uh, and now you're helping coach and encourage the next group of go to market leaders. Again, really excited to talk today. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, Jesse. Um, I've been really honored and, um, privileged to lead some amazing sales teams at some really great companies. Um, and my background is like, kind of unique, I guess. Um, I have been living in Colorado, I guess for over 10 years, 12 years maybe now I've got, um, two kids, a dog and a husband who keep me busy and active. There's never a lack of things to do here in Colorado. Uh, we can take advantage of all the seasons, which is really great. Um, I'm originally from the Midwest. I've lived in the deep south in Louisiana, where I wore a hard hat and steel toed shoes because I used to be a chemical engineer. And then I lived in San Francisco for almost nine years where I was in medical sales, in tech sales, and then I've been in Colorado now for the rest of it. So don't do the math and add it up and see how old I am. But, um, yeah, that's a little bit more about me.

Speaker A: So, dog, we didn't talk about this last time. What kind of dog do you have?

Speaker B: Well, I feel like everyone has this kind of dog right now, but, um, I have a mini golden doodle whose name is Baxter.

Speaker A: Baxter. That's awesome. Yeah, you're right. Goldendoodles are a little bit more popular, but especially in Colorado, I feel like they're like a really good dog because they don't get too hot within it.

Speaker B: So, yeah, he's great. He doesn't shed. He's really friendly. I You know how people say that, like, oh, that's a people person. Like, he is a people dog. Like, he has to be around people. He's very friendly. He's like the worst, best guard dog probably that you've ever had. Um, yeah, he's great.

Speaker A: That's fun. Well, so today I think, you know, one of the things you and I talked about when we had coffee was all around, you know, some of the key things around decision making and, and leadership and even just like how you and I have both kind of evolved, I think, even, uh, our, in ourselves, both in our careers and how we lead and really great conversation. And so today I'm excited to dive into a little bit more of those topics. I think, like, one of the things that I'd love to dig in a little bit on is when you think back on your career, what were a few moments that like, really had a big impact on you, shaped you as a leader?

Speaker B: I love this question because I think there have been so many, probably because I've been in leadership for so long and I've had the privilege to work for so many great companies and lead so many amazing teams. Um, but one of the ones that really stood out to me was a long time ago, probably the entry point into my leadership career was I had the opportunity to start a brand new division when I was at Intuit and it was just myself and another person and we had to start this medical division for, um, the division of Intuit that we were working at. And the first quarter, it was extremely hard. We had zero pipeline, zero leads. I think we landed at like 74 or 78 or something like that. And there was actually a third person with us, uh, at the time. He quit halfway through the quarter and went back to his old role and said, like, this isn't for me. I'm m not making any money. And this was a pretty cutthroat culture. We were in San Francisco. Like everyone listen, you have like, your paycheck is your survival. Um, but what we learned was pipeline is king. We quickly learned how to disqualify the pipeline that wasn't going to get us anywhere. We prioritized the accounts that were going to make us money. And the next quarter we hit over 275% to goal. So the third quarter we like more than tripled or at least know 5x the size of the team. We grew to 12 people, had two leaders. That was my first segue into leadership. Um, and then when I moved to Colorado, I had the opportunity to launch a team for that division in Colorado. So that was a pivotal moment in my leadership career. Like, stick with it. Um, know what you, um, know what your key like metrics are that you need to measure, know what's important, and just kind of keep doing the things that you know to be successful and the rest will figure itself out. But the other important part of that story was when I was actually interviewing in Colorado to transfer within Intuit, and the leader here asked me about my resume and he said, do you know the most, um, interesting thing about your time in San Francisco to me? Um, and I said, well, was it, you know, the fact that I went to President's Club or the fact that I hit 270 whatever percent to goal this quarter? And he said, no, it was actually the quarter before that that you missed. And I said, what? I almost didn't put that on there because I was, you know, afraid that you would think that I wasn't a performer or whatever. And he said, I bet you can tell me exactly why you missed in what you did to get to that 278 whatever percent the next quarter. And he's like, what that tells me is that you will have empathy for people on your team that miss their number. You will be able to help them and guide them to be able to hit their number and continue to move forward because you've done it yourself. And that really changed my perspective on missing a number, on continuing to persevere and move forward. And the role that I was interviewing for was taking over a team that had never once hit their goal in two years. Wow. And we did it in 60 days. And so, um, it kind of changed the way that I thought about success, I guess.

Speaker A: So it's interesting, I was talking, I have a four and a half year old little girl and in this week, this weekend we were hanging out and she's like trying to learn her letters, which probably a little young actually to do it, but I don't mean I love it. And so she got this little workbook on, um, tracing. And she's like, daddy, this is really hard. Like, this is really hard. And I looked at her and one of the things that, like I do with my kids is mantras. And we'll talk a little bit about that here in a bit actually. But like, I looked at her and I said, what do Morris is doing? She said, we do hard things. And I said, yes, we do. And I said, is this a hard thing? And she said, this is a hard thing. And I said, so that's a fun thing, isn't? She's like, yeah, that is fun, dad. And it's funny because I think, similar to you, like, I've had those points in my career where you're almost ashamed. You're like, you know, like, I don't want to, I don't really want to talk about that. But now I think there's that mentality of like those hard times or those times that maybe you aren't performing or maybe you made a mistake. Like those are, if you allow it. Right. It's like the thing that shapes you into it. So it's interesting because even when you said, like, you know, that quarter, I mean, even my first curiosity was like, well, what did you change between the 70% quarter and the 200% quarter? And, you know, you said, hey, I focused on pipeline, some of these other things, but ultimately, like, I'm really curious, almost mentality wise, like, what did you, like, do you even remember, like, what you had to do to kind of get your, your headspace into that different.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, the first thing was we had to know that the results were coming. Like, we had to have the confidence that what we were doing was building for the future. And that what we were, the work that we were putting in and the grit and the grind that we were doing every day was going to lead to results, even if it wasn't showing on the leaderboard and the dashboards and all of the things that were, you know, front and center every day like it is in, in sas. And I think the most important thing was that we were building pipeline and we were building the right pipeline that was going to close the next quarter to lead to that 201, whatever, 70 plus percent quarter. Um, and without doing the right activity and just giving up or, you know, getting discouraged or not not focusing on the right things, we would not have gotten there. And that actually led me to another quarter. When I was at Zoom, um, I had just come off a president's club quarter and we, it was about halfway through the year and we merged like three segments into two. And so my team was at like 140 plus percent to goal. And then the next quarter after they like reshaped all the teams, we were at like 70 something percent to goal. And I said we didn't go from 140% to 70% because we stopped being good sellers. Like, they moved the goal post on us. Our accounts changed, our pipeline changed. Like, all these things changed. We just need to get back to doing the right things. And that's what helped us continue to move forward and focus on the right effort. It's never easy, especially in sales, when you see yourself, like, at the bottom of the leaderboard. Um, but if you have that confidence that you're in conviction that you're doing the right things and that those results will manifest, it's kind of what helps you continue to move forward. So as a leader, you have to focus on those small wins along the way and, like, moving the chains, so to speak.

Speaker A: You mentioned activity, and I think it's something in sales. A lot of times it's kind of a dirty word, right? It's funny, like, half my job, I

Speaker B: feel like strong opinions about this topic.

Speaker A: I mean, it's funny because I literally think back over my career and, you know, half my job is spent, you know, trying to balance between. Because you've got. Oftentimes you've got CEOs or other executive leaders, like, where's the activity metrics? And, you know, you've got the sales or being like, that's the death of culture. Uh, and so there's this always this tension, and I think healthy tension. And I. I don't. You know, I think I've seen both work, weirdly enough. I've seen some cultures where activity isn't. Isn't a bad word, and I've seen other cultures where it can potentially kill it, you know, depending on what the intent is. Like, what's your viewpoint on. I'm totally going off topic a little bit, but I'm really curious on this one. What's your viewpoint on the activity side of sales? And. And how do you. How do you approach that as a leader, even?

Speaker B: Well, I'm glad you asked. I have strong opinions on this. And, um, you know, for me, one of the biggest culture killers, just to hit on that point really quick, is. Is micromanagement and losing, honestly. So I don't care if it's from activity or whatever, but losing is what kills cultures, honestly. Um, so I'm never one for activity for the sake of activity, personally, because I was horrible at it. Like, I did not get to my number from being, you know, 100 call a day cold caller, because I could hit my meetings by making 20 cold calls a day. I actually did a training long in back in the olden days with my sales team on how I got to 28 meetings a week with making less than 25 cold calls a day. Um, and it was back in the time when, like, you know, cold calls worked a lot better than they work now. And power Hours and time blocking was kind of a newer thing. But, um, for me, focusing on the right activity and the right messaging and the right Persona and the right target and the right. All of these things have to align because I've seen Sellers game the system and get to the top of the leaderboard, leaderboard for activity to stay under the radar, and that doesn't get anybody anywhere. So for Mickey, um, that's just kind of like chasing your tail or like chasing a finish line that's like, never going to get you there. Um, so for me, I just. I'm not a big fan of, like, activity. For activity's sake, I'd rather focus on, like, what's really driving the numbers, what's really working, and let's do more of that. But that's just my opinion.

Speaker A: So you hit on, you know, about really losing kills culture. And I couldn't agree more. And one of the things I think, you know, you can get into the psychology of selling behind this, but, like, winning begets winning. Um. Oh, yeah, that's something like, you know, I've actually spent a fair amount of time on my end of it helping orgs get into the motion of winning. Because winning, you know, can look like a lot of things for a lot of us. Right? I mean, obviously, like, knocking down a big deal is the most clear win. But there's other, like, ways in which you can get, uh, an organization feeling like they're getting some momentum. And I think this ties back into the leadership kind of topic we're talking about. Like, what are some of the things you feel like Again, let's say you've got some of those, you know, you've worked for some winning cultures just because they had great products. But I'm sure you've had times in your career too, where you guys weren't winning. Um, how did you kind of turn that around? And what would that look like from a leadership perspective to, again, to kind of get many wins, if you will, to try to drive that momentum up to actually winning big.

Speaker B: Oh, I love this question. So it's funny that you say this, because I worked for really great companies with really great products, and then I've worked for teams within some of those companies that were startup teams within those organizations. So one of the most pivotal times in my career was actually when I led a team that was, um, at Intuit reselling Salesforce to QuickBooks users. Two huge companies selling really great products. This is the team that never hit their goal in two years, and we did it in 60 days. So for me, you can have the best product, but if you don't have the best process, with the right expectations, with the right accountability, with the right people, with the right trust, like, you're never going to get those results. So for me, creating a culture of winning starts with a foundation of trust, um, which needs to start from the top. It needs to start from the leader. You can't have someone coming in, telling your team to do something that they're not doing themselves. I've had leaders for myself in the past that would say come in early, stay late, and they're dragging themselves in at 10 o' clock and leaving at 3 and going to happy hour at noon or whatever. It doesn't work. So you have to create a foundation of trust. You have to create a culture where feedback is welcomed. You may not always be able to implement what people want, but you have to create a culture where people are heard. That is one of the most important things for me as a leader, and it's also the most important thing for me being led also. I want to be heard and seen. And when people feel like they can be heard and seen, they feel like they are bought in. And when you allow people to feel like they are bought in, you're able to hold people accountable. And when you can hold people accountable, you're able to drive results. And so that's one of the first things that I did when I took over this team. I built trust and credibility. I mean, I was moving from San Francisco to Denver. Talk about two completely different cultures. The pace is different. People left at 4:30, they were going on hikes in the afternoon. Like, I didn't know what was going on. Like, in San Francisco, people left at, uh, six at night. Like, it wasn't the same culture. Um, but I wanted to hear from the team, like, what was working, what wasn't. We celebrated every single small win. If they set a meeting, we celebrated it. If they got in touch with the right person, we celebrated it. If they got a response to a cold email, even if it was a no, we celebrated it because we knew that the messaging at least was landing in the inbox. Right. Whatever it was. So creating a winning culture doesn't have to be closing a huge deal. Yes, like, that can be the ultimate. But you have to create the progress and the milestones and the little breadcrumbs along the way so that people stay motivated. Salespeople, myself included, with adhd, we love those dopamine hits. And if we're not getting them, like, it's not going to create that winning culture, and you're going to feel like you're just losing and getting rejected all day. Especially in the time of remote work. You no longer have. I mean, I'm sitting in this, like, huge office by myself. I can no longer turn to my co worker and say, like, oh, man, that call was so hard. Like, that customer ripped us apart. It's hard. So you have to create the winning culture and find ways to win whatever it is.

Speaker A: I love that, and I do. I mean, I completely agree. I think it is celebrating the little things, weirdly enough. I think that can make a huge, you know, huge impact. And also, I mean, the trust, I mean, that one, that one I think is one of the harder ones. Weirdly enough, that people underestimate the importance of it makes a huge difference. You started talking a little bit just now about, you know, some of the challenges, I think, with remote work. And I think, you know, you've been leading sales for a long time now. You know, you're coaching other go to market leaders. When you think about, you know, some of the internal conversations you've had over the years with yourself or mantra, I always think I have, like, sticky notes on my screen, uh, always that are, like, I call them swing thoughts. But, like, things that I want to continue to frame up. Awesome. You know, things you want to frame throughout your day. Like, what are some of those, you know, things that you've had that reinstill and help you make clear decisions in the midst of chaos?

Speaker B: There are probably so many, and my mind is going blank with probably most of them that come to mind. But just as we're talking about this, I think that there's something to be said about, uh, the resiliency that you can build when things are really challenging. So, for example, when I was leading teams during Zoom during the pandemic, right. Everybody thinks that, oh, my gosh, like, you were at Zoom during the pandemic, you must have just been taking orders. Like, there was a time for that, but then the next day people would want to cancel because they purchased the wrong thing. Or we were dealing with, like, massive clawbacks because businesses were going out of business or they were laying their teams off or whatever. It looked like we were seeing the world panic in real time. Um, you know, just there's always variability in terms of any kind of team that you're leading. So smooth seas don't make skilled sailors. It's kind of a tongue twister. But that one, for me, really resonated when. When I was leading that team into it, that I had never hit their goal. Um, and when I was leading that team, like teams at Zoom during the pandemic, like figuring, um, things out along the way, like, is going to build resilience. It's going to teach you more than you're ever going to know. Like, you don't want to be a sailor and only say like, you know, be on a training pond or I don't even know how sailors trained train. But, um, not on a smooth seat, that's probably for sure. Um, the other one is like progress, not perfection. I am a self proclaimed huge perfectionist. I like things to be done a certain way. My husband calls me type A with capital A. Um, I like to say that I'm type A minus. But um, you know, I, I can be a perfectionist. So really focusing on the progress instead of like the final end result can be, um, really rewarding when you're focusing on those like, small things along the way and not getting overwhelmed by, you know, whatever that goal is. But having that end goal in mind can be really important also. Um, and I think just, you know, making sure that, um, I guess those are two mantras, but just making sure that you are keeping, uh, and it's really hard to do when you're in the chaos, but just keeping a pulse on what the reality is and really what's important. I mean, any job that I've ever had candidly has felt like it's the most important thing in the whole world. When I was an engineer in Louisiana, it felt like that was the most important thing in the world. When I was selling contact lenses in San Francisco, it felt like contact lenses were the most important thing in the world when I was selling software. Most important thing in the world. And in reality, like none of those things matter to me now that I'm not doing any of them. So just kind of keeping a pulse on really what's important when you're in the chaos can be really meaningful and important as well.

Speaker A: So I want to dig into that a little bit. What does that look like? So you're in the chaos and you're talking about, you know, it's a great, great point, right? Like, you know, selling video conferencing is not, you know, open heart surgery. Um, but how, how does that play out? Like again, let's just walk through a scenario. You're, you know, you've got a somebody listening to this podcast. They're in a situation right now that's maybe more than stressful. Most of Us that are high performers, we live in that environment. Right. And that's not that uncommon. What does that look like though, to take a step back, take a pulse check and kind of a reality check behind it. And how does that help going forward?

Speaker B: Mhm. It's a good question because I think especially for top performers, you immediately want to go into problem solving mode and start to think about all the things that you can do, all of the things that maybe you've done before. Sometimes people, um, don't even ask how high when somebody says jump, they just start jumping. Um, and maybe they didn't even want you to start jumping now, maybe they wanted you to start jumping next week. So I think, um, it's really important to get clarity. So ask questions like, do we even know what we're solving for? For example, like what is the ultimate end goal? Does everyone know what we're solving for? Um, why is this important? Like what happens if we don't do this? What happens if we miss this deadline? What have we already tried? A lot of times, you know, especially in some of my most recent roles, um, one working at like a very new startup where everyone is new because of growth, um, the company was growing so quickly and one, because we were all new because of turnover and transitions, um, it's important to know like, what have we already tried and why didn't it work? And did it not work because of circumstances that are now maybe different and maybe it would work, maybe now they would work again? Or are we just trying things that, that are not going to work again just because, you know, um, we're a new team and you know, we're not going to get buy in because, um, whatever. So I think asking the right questions and getting clarity can be really important and it just helps slow things down too. And sometimes when you slow things down, um, it really helps to just get clarity. It helps to build confidence, it helps to really focus on, you know, what is the next right thing that we need to do instead of, um, trying to do all of the things at once. And candidly, when I was an executive, I tried to do way too many things. I. Everything felt urgent, everything felt important, and if I were to do it all over again, I probably would try to slow down, really focus on relentlessly prioritizing and start with the most important things. And if those didn't work, then we go to the next ones. But I think a lot of times we just try to, um, do way too many things and we get overwhelmed with the, the pace and the urgency and like, you know, however many things are getting thrown at us. So I don't know if that answers the question exactly, but no, that's helpful.

Speaker A: And I think, you know, one of the things I also talked to my teams about is are, you know, not are we working hard, but are we working on the right things? And I think, you know, I think it's easy, especially in high growth startup world in particular, but probably in most environments, like, it's really easy to, you know, I think a couple things, like we all, most of us, uh, like to appease or please people, right? So this idea of like I'm gonna say yes to everything, um, but the reality is is like you say yes to everything, then everything is nothing's actually a priority, right? And so it's like the, the thing I'm constantly reminding the teams always is like, hey, not are we working hard, are we working? But are we working on the right things? And so I think you're, you're right is like level setting even with yourself, just a constant reminder of okay, what is actually important. Where is the value, value going to be added? I mean, it's one of the things I talk a lot about in Revops is value, right? It's like a uh, maniacal focus on driving value for the organization. It's the same thing in sales. Like, and I think most organizations in most roles probably have that. But I couldn't agree more. Like how do you provide that focus? And that's hard to do in the midst of chaos. But part of it sometimes is just that like deep breath, right? Like it's funny. Last year, so I have asthma and so I get, I get measured once a year on like breath intake. And so a year ago I did like this breath test and I think I was like a 110% of normal, which isn't bad, but for somebody who's actually like an athlete, I was like, okay, that's okay. Fast forward a year later and I actually went up to 170% of like what's an average? And my, my allergist asthma, uh, doctor looked at me, she's like, what did you do differently? And I, literally the only thing I did is I started doing breathing exercises in between, um, meetings. Like it was a habit I got into and it was like one of my mantras actually was. And so I just made this habit out of it. And by doing it actually I got my uh, breathing capacity up, which is super fascinating. But it's, it's fascinating because for me, like the reason why I started that was because I needed a mechanism, a way in which to kind of take that step back at the perspective behind it. So it makes a lot of sense in how you talk about it.

Speaker B: I think it's really interesting that, that, that made such a difference in the numbers. Right. I mean, I've, I'm not gonna say cured, but I've never been afraid of flying until I had a really bumpy flight coming into Denver. And it was after I had a kid. I have two now, but after I had my daughter. And, um, now I do breathing exercises every single time. Pretty much I fly. And it's just like second nature now to me. And it's amazing how quickly you can calm yourself down and slow your thoughts down and slow everything else down. And um, just by breathing, like, it is a really great reminder.

Speaker A: So, yeah, there's an app, uh, called Clear Space as well. And have you ever heard of it? So Clear Space, like if, if, like I was starting, I was catching myself last year, a lot of like, doom scrolling just to. Honestly probably to deal with stress, to be frank. And so there's this app called Clearspace. And so before, like you can set parameters up to say, like, okay, if I want to access Instagram, like I can make it 45 seconds and it makes me actually breathe. Like it'll give you like mantras. And, and so it's funny, like, even that one thing has been an extra. It's an extra point of friction essentially to keep you from doing certain behavior. I love it because it's like, it also has kind of instilled that, that into you. So it makes a huge difference.

Speaker B: That's pretty cool. Yeah, I'll, uh, have to check it out.

Speaker A: Yeah, check it out. The. I, uh, want to shift gears a little bit. So, you know, one of the things you and I talked a lot about over coffee and I know something you're really passionate about and I think you do a lot of this around coaching is all around decision making with leaders. And I think, you know, something that I haven't thought a lot about, I think till you and I started talking about it. And I think it's one of those topics that, that really can be valuable. And I think a lot of it. You and I were talking about this earlier. Like, alignment is a big piece of it, but when you think about, you know, these, uh, environments that we've all played in and lived in all around, like high stakes decision making and, you know, sometimes you don't have the information you need. Like, have you had how do you walk leaders through that? How do they get comfortable with really uncertainty, but still making just the best decisions possible in those instances?

Speaker B: It's a great question. And I think, personally, I don't love the, um, the phrase like, you know, change is the only constant. And like, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like, those things don't really help anybody. Right? I mean, um, but I do think that there are ways that you can get comfortable and confident with uncertainty. But, um, it's really more about the planning and the preparation and things that go into it and how to navigate the process and the expectations really is what it is. So when I coach people around, like, decision making, it's usually around confidence, it's usually around communication, it's usually around prioritization, sometimes it's around change management. Um, and a lot of times it's just really around the uncertainty. Right. Was this even the right decision? What if it's not the right decision? What are we going to do then? And so for me, um, I can think of a couple times, especially in leadership, where you think about high stakes. I mean, there's really nothing higher stakes than somebody's livelihood and their career. Um, um, and unfortunately in tech, like, it's. It's been the case for the past many years of just like this constant flux of layoffs. And I, I experienced it like years ago, over 10 years ago, during a time at a big company when the company decided not to continue the partnership with this other organization. And I had to make some really tough decisions with my team. And then, um, unfortunately, uh, I've had to have a few layoffs within the past couple years within my executive roles at two separate companies. Um, and there's just really never like, um, a way to feel like you have all of the information needed to make the right decisions in those moments. But I do think there are some things that you can do. So the first thing that you can do, I think, is get yourself on board as much as possible. So as a leader, you typically have information before most of the rest of the people that report to you. Sometimes this is very challenging for people that pride themselves on being honest and transparent, trustworthy people, leaders, um, there just has to remain a line of delineation there for, you know, very obvious reasons. But you have to get yourself on board with the goal and the reason for the change. Um, what are the timelines, what are the reasons? How can you get behind this decision even if you don't like it, even if you think it's unfair, even if you don't agree with it. Just how can you lead with integrity? What does it mean for you? What does it mean for your team? What does it mean for the company? Just get all of your questions out and get to the place as much as you can with a level of comfort and with your messaging before. You have to roll that out. So it's not an emotion, emotional message when you have to deliver it. Then when you do have to deliver it, um, you have to get your team on board. So you have to ask the necessary questions and you have to

Speaker A: provide, um,

Speaker B: a space for them to ask the necessary questions. Again, you had time to prepare for this. You've known this before. They have. Um, and you have to find a path forward that's authentic and genuine for you as well. And this is where you'll be able to show up as a leader. They will learn from your leadership and they will follow you. Whether you're following that down that negative spiral or you're leading them forward, they are going to follow you. And I would advise you that it's much easier to lead them forward, um, than it is to follow down that negative spiral. Um, and then just get very clear on what to say and what not to say. Um, proactively monitor the behaviors of your team, the attitude of your team. Give them room to process, create a space for that. Um, just allow space for venting. But also, you don't want to create, like, a negative environment either, so make sure that you're clear on that. Um, there's also a change curve. You can Google many of these, but it's always been helpful for me to walk people through this natural change curve so that they know that the emotions that they're feeling are very normal and natural and, um, that they will get beyond that, um, because sometimes that's really difficult too. Right? They don't know, is this only me? Um, I've never been through this before. Like, why does everybody else seem like they're moving on or whatever it is? So just allowing the team to know that what they're processing is normal can be really helpful when you're making a decision that feels really difficult. Um, like there is no right answer, I guess. I don't know if. I mean, I kind of went into, like, the change part of it, but also like, any kind of decision when you don't have, um, all of the information is going to have some level of, like, change management with it as well. No.

Speaker A: And I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head and, and ultimately, so one of the Analogies I always tell my team is like, I picture a well. So, like, I just have this, like, image in my head of a well, and it's like, sometimes people need to sit down in that well, and that's okay. Uh, and our job on the team sometimes is to not only just, like, scream down in the well and be like, hey, are you okay down there? Sometimes actually it's the crawl down in there and sit with them for a little while. Um, but eventually, like, if they are not coming out of the well, like, you know, we can only help them so much. But there's this. This attitude of like, hey, we're gonna try to sit with them, try to get them out of that well and bring them up. And I often think of that even, like, for ourselves as leaders, because I, like, I think most of us maybe have led through, like, really challenging times. I've had to, yeah, definitely lay people off and also, like, have people depart. And that's not an easy thing. And sometimes, like, you don't even agree with it as a leader, um, to your point. And so part of it is like, this journey yourself of, like, okay, I'm going to just sit with this for a second and, you know. But then ultimately it's like this processing thing of, you know, to your point, like, leading through that. And it's not this, like, I have to convince myself that this is for the best interest of everybody, because I don't. You might not always believe that, but there is, for me at least there was like, a trigger of like, at the same time, like, I am best to lead us through this, uh, and. And walk alongside people in that journey and again, help them out of it when we can and sit with them when we can't. Um, I don't know. I always think about that, that image because for me, it's. It's like some of those situations, again, you're never fully going to be bought in, but there is a component to where. It's almost like this shift from. For. For me, at least, where I had to believe that I was still, like, the best to help in that transition, even if it was not an easy thing. So I completely get it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think what you said is really important as well. It's. It may not always work out the best for everyone, and that is a really hard pill to swallow, uh, especially as a leader. And it may not work out the best for you as the leader. Right. I mean, I've had changes happen at an organization where my team was doing great. A change happened and then it really sucked for a while. Um, and so sometimes that is just the case. But it is our job as leaders to lead through that change and to keep going and to figure out how to, you know, get through it and, and work past it and figure out, you know, the best way forward and the best way through. And it's not easy, but it will make us stronger for the most part. Um, hopefully we'll learn from it and then, you know, I always like to say more will be revealed, like whatever that means. Right. Um, so yeah, it's not easy, but I like the well analogy. It's like, do you want us to send down the bucket for you? Do you want me to come down in the bucket? Hey, the bucket's down there.

Speaker A: It's an interesting one too because it also, like, it also comes back to that, checking in almost with yourself as a leader, like, okay, have they sat down there long enough? Uh, and again, I don't want everybody to get sucked into the well. Uh, and sometimes it's me in the well, sometimes it's, you know, the team. And so there's this constant, I don't know, it's like a visualization pulse check for me always on, uh, where am I at? Where's the team at? You know, and how can we support people along that journey?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's good.

Speaker A: I like it when like there's, there's some probably people listening to this and this happens a lot in sales, right? You typically, you have your top performers eventually make the jump into management and sometimes that works out really well and sometimes it doesn't work out as well. When you think about like individual contributors making decisions versus how leaders make decisions. Like what do you think the hardest transition is for those new leaders? Uh, in that.

Speaker B: Mhm. It's been a long time since I had to make that transition, but I've had a lot of transitions myself throughout my leadership course. And I've had fortunately, like, I've promoted a lot of people from individual contributors and managers into second line and third line leaders too. So for me, one of the best pieces of advice I got, um, and I had to learn as well, is part of what I think top performers struggle with is that sometimes they don't know what makes them successful. Um, they just know that this is what they've done, this is what they do. Um, they don't even know that. It's like their secret sauce. So if leadership is your path, because not all individual contributors and top performers want to move into leadership. Honestly, I think A lot of times you can make more money. If that's what motivates you as an individual contributor, stay on that path. Um, but if you want to move into leadership, know what makes you successful and why. Because when you move into leadership, you're no longer going to be responsible for executing a hundred percent like your role as an individual contributor is 100% execution. But when you move into leadership, it is now making your team execute and empowering them to execute. You are not doing the work on their behalf. Um, so if you can't show someone how you've done it or know what it took to be successful, or if you can't show them or teach them in multiple different ways, then I think you're going to struggle a little bit. And the more that you continue to climb, uh, the corporate ladder, so to speak, if you move into second and third, third line leadership and fourth line leadership, the farther away you get from that execution point, the more you get, um, into the strategy component. And so really knowing what works and why and really starting to think strategically instead of just tactfully, um, for me that was a big struggle. And I work with a lot of leaders right now in my coaching business that they struggle with that too because what got them promoted, especially being a high performer, is usually that workhorse mentality. Work harder, work more, learn more, be the expert, get in the weeds, you know, whatever it is. Um, and when you really want to continue to move up the ladder, the more that you're doing that, it's really holding you back. You just get to a point where that doesn't scale anymore. Um, and so for me, I would just, yeah, advise people to know like, what makes them successful, know where their blind spots are, hire for their blind spots so that they can build high performing teams around them that are well rounded and that have strengths that they don't have. Which is also really tough, I think for first time leaders. They want to hire people that look like them and that replicate them because that's again what they know to be successful. But really the most successful teams are these really diverse teams that have a lot of different strengths that are, um, kind of the sum of all the parts.

Speaker A: So it's, it's interesting. You know, I think you and I have touched on this some. Um, but one of the things I, and I'm, I'm going to be that guy that's about to paralyze like, like draw a parallel between parenting in this and leadership. But one of the things like with your kids at least that I'm doing right now and I'm, I'm in like the 2 and 4 year old right now is like not doing too much for them. Right. So it's like, like if my daughter can tie her shoes, even if it takes ten minutes, uh, and maybe I can get it done in a minute like letting her struggle through that process. And I think similarly in leadership, like especially those of us that are high performers that are used to uh, and maybe we can do things faster than the individuals on our team. Um, again to your point, it's like reframing. That's actually not what it's about. Right. Like part of leading is trying to um, increase capabilities across your organization. And so part of that is throwing it back on. I had a leader one time who say, Jesse, your brain works faster than most. And so just because you can get to an answer faster, that's actually not helping your team because they don't fully understand the journey and the why behind the decisions being made. And so even if it takes you an extra 10 to 30 minutes. And so in that moment you're like, well this is not as efficient and somebody who loves efficiency, but longer term actually it's a lot more beneficial because now they're understanding fully what it is and so they're not going against it. And so actually instead of like giving the answer, it's like asking the questions. And I think this is something you and I talked about as well and something you do a lot in coaching is oftentimes it's more about like knowing what questions to ask is actually more important as a leader than necessarily having the answer, uh, and helping and figuring out how to get your teams to their own. Even if it's the same conclusion or maybe it's slightly different. You know, that is really where the leadership, you know, piece changes is it's a shift for you of I'm going to execute on this and get this done faster because I know I can draw it across the line to I'm going to help guide people on my team and empower them to make those decisions. So something I always think a lot about is between those two. It's like the bridge between the two.

Speaker B: Mhm. I um, I was laughing when you were talking about that because I've received that exact same feedback. Like you need to bring people along, um, the journey with you, like you process and connect the dots really quickly. I think it's part of the gift uh, that we have with ADHD a little bit is just like being able to see and Connect the dots and pattern recognize almost to a fault. But um, and then having a hard time explaining like why we can see that way as well. But um, for me, you know, I think a lot of times leaders say, well, I'm in leadership because I love to coach. And really what they like to do is tell people what to do and tell people what they did wrong. Um, and I see it all the time. And even the most well intentioned leaders who say it in the nicest way, who are really, really well respected and well liked, are not really coaching. And so if I can leave like the listeners of this podcast with like one recommendation for how to improve, like the question asking, it's just um, asking like more what and how questions. So like even just as simple as like what do you think went well on that call? Or what would you have done differently? Or what do you think was most important, uh, to that customer? Or what are, what are their pains right now? Or what, um, what happens if they miss that deadline, right? Or whatever it is, um, or how did they do this, how did they do that before? It doesn't matter, right? Because then you're getting your team to think differently. And that's candidly one of my fears, and I know that this is kind of going off on a tangent a little bit around chat GPT is that we're eliminating the need for people to think, right? If they used to send a cold email and it didn't get a response, they would need to think about why didn't that email work? What do I need to do differently? What does the subject need line need to say? What does the body of the email need to say? Now they just have chatgpt write it differently or summarize it or polish it or whatever. We're eliminating the need to critically think. Um, and I think moving into leadership, that's one of the biggest things that um, moving from an individual contributor into a leader I think is really important. It's like, what did you do as an individual contributor that made you successful, that you can now, um, teach your team or guide your team or coach your team as a leader to do differently?

Speaker A: No, I love that. And I think you know that it's a reframing in some ways, right? And it's not, it doesn't come natural, I think out of the gate even. Like, you know, I've been leading now for 12, probably 12 plus years and probably similar to you and like I still have to remind myself at times. But what I, I started building the habit of in My last role especially was like when I'd come in with the answer, instead of coming in actually stating the answer, it's like, hey, what do you think we should do next? Or you know, what, what did we miss in this meeting? Right. And so it's. To your point, it's a lot of those questions and, and like I got it to where it was a habit, right? Because it was almost like I had to reprogram how I thought about it because again it was, it's so natural. Like I love solving problems and so my brain naturally is going to go to like I just want to this thing. But that's ultimately like not actually leading to your point. It's, it's telling, right? It's dictating. And that's not, that's not really. I don't know if it was the leader I wanted to be.

Speaker B: So it's really hard. And there's also that urgency and time component. Like I think a lot of times we just don't feel like we have the time to really dig in a little bit deeper. But I think that's what creates that speed when we actually slow down to get faster. Right.

Speaker A: So along these lines and really, last question here, like when you think about a belief or approach that helped you succeed early on, but that you've had to since kind of let go or evolve, like what was maybe an example of that that you had to do? Like kind of the what, what got you here won't get you there concept.

Speaker B: I think we talked about it a little bit, I think, um, and I even posted I think about this on LinkedIn a little bit recently. Um, and again, if I were to ever go back to corporate, I think I would do a lot of things differently. I think the number one thing is um, like really trying not to get into the weeds. Like knowing enough of what I need to know about the business to be informed and to be able to speak to it with clarity and confidence in the meetings that I need to communicate it in. But also not um, getting like too much in the weeds, um, focusing more on the strategy and less on the execution, um, I think would be important really maintaining uh, like three to four really like top priorities. And if anything else doesn't align with those priorities, then it either needs to be deprioritized, scheduled, out, delegated or just like dumped because it's like there's so much that you can always work on that needs to change and needs to improve. And there's especially you know, in the go to market or you're going to have a million people wanting to, you know, get your time, get something, um, on your agenda, like launch something, um, get with your team, whatever it is. And like, if you're not prioritizing things that are going to drive the number, reduce, you know, um, any kind of barrier to hitting that number, whatever it is, whatever your priorities are, it's just going to be a distraction. And then the last thing, honestly I would, I would just try to reframe success and have more fun. I mean, now that I have so much more time, I feel like I, um, I had, I feel like I never had any time. And looking back, I'm, um, Like I could have had the same amount of time that I had now, but if I would have prioritized and really would have just like, allowed people to do what they were meant to do and made, made those expectations very clear and like, empowered the right people to do the right things, um, with the right expectations and accountability, then it would have freed up time for me. If I would have prioritized the right things, if I would have tried to focus less on like, execution, if I would have just asked for clarity around certain things and said no to more. I think maybe that's how everything boils down actually, now that I'm thinking about it, being an executive to me, like, what I had to shed, I had to say yes to a lot of things to get promoted. Like, you're always told, like, say yes to more, take on more projects, like learn more, whatever it is. Um, and being an executive means learning how to say no to more things so that you can say yes only to the right and the most important things. Um, so, yeah, I would have been better at saying no.

Speaker A: I love how simple and yet hard that is. And I also love that you said also have more fun because I think that's something that, you know, I would say most of us probably that, ah, are on the higher performer scale. Like we genuinely enjoy what we do. Um, but sometimes I can get lost in the midst of chaos and, you know, to your point, 100 million priorities. And so I love it. Say no, say no more. So you can say yes to the right things and have more fun. I think those are great guiding, guiding,

Speaker B: uh, why I redesigned my office after I left corporate to have a bright pink couch and like, bright pink fun wallpaper and things like that so that I just want to have more fun in my life. And fun can show up in a lot of different ways.

Speaker A: Love it.

Speaker B: That's where I'm more fun. I'm more fun than furniture, but.

Speaker A: Well, thanks again for joining. Uh, those of you listening, follow, uh, Allison on LinkedIn. And if you aren't, uh, following the podcast, please like and subscribe. But again, really appreciate the taking the time today.