Your Marketing Needs Trust, Not Just Reach

Speaker A: High Level is a full CRM and marketing platform and I've used some of the best in the SaaS industry. Sam. Hm. We are live from LinkedIn, YouTube, um, Facebook X. We've got kick going lots of channels and it's Wednesday. I'm Jesse Lisak, your host and we are getting into our hot topics and our hot guests here in just a moment. But real quick I'm going to tell you a little bit about Streamyard. That's what we're streaming on tonight. And Streamyard is a tool that will let you stream M live across all the social channels like the ones I just mentioned. And you know, this is something that we here at Reviting help businesses do go live on LinkedIn, YouTube and all the other channels and then we repurpose it to podcast and short form video after the show. But you can also do it yourself. You don't need a done for you service, you can just go live on your own. And, and if it's something that maybe you want to try out, then this is the tool you need. Streamyard is a preferred LinkedIn vendor. You do need a third party tool in order to stream live on LinkedIn. They don't yet have the tools built in yet. So Streamyard is the one that we've found really great success with. And you might as well just scan that QR code and check out Streamyard. Otherwise I want to tell you really quick about High Level. So High Level is a CRM and marketing automation platform that I adopted early on when we started Reviting. And it's, you know, super budget friendly, $97 a month, you get three accounts. So if you've been in marketing or sales, you've been a CRM jockey, you've been sending, you know, email marketing automation maybe from like siloed accounts. Well, you can have everything in an all in one suite and that used to cost you thousands of dollars and now it doesn't have to be so complicated. Um, so yeah, check out High Level. You can use my QR code. If you're listening on podcast, just go to re High Level and I would love to help you out but we have two really great guests here. I'm going to bring them in and if you are listening, I would love to hear from you in the comments. Let us know. Where are you tuning in from? What industry are you in? We want to make this conversation relevant for you. We're going to be talking about trust, we're going to be talking about marketing leadership. And you know, is marketing really up to Par according to the finance team. I mean we're going to find out here in a little bit, but. Hey, Erica, it's so great to see you. I might see Erica later. She's here. Local. We've got David in the comments tonight. What's up, David? And if anyone else is tuning in, let us know throughout the conversation. Leave your questions, your comments, your opinions. We want to hear from you. But let's welcome our guests to the stage. We have Rabia and Pierce. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker B: Thanks Jesse.

Speaker C: Thanks for having us.

Speaker A: So glad to have you here. So let's learn more about both of you in good old fashioned Wednesday style. Could you both tell us your full life story from birth to what brought you to now in two minutes. Rabia, what do you think? Can you kick us off?

Speaker B: All right, so, uh, my name is Rubia. My name means spring in Arabic. I was born in the, uh, small, crazy beautiful country of Lebanon and the capital city of Beirut. And throughout my life I was always interested in different things. I landed on starting my professional career in marketing communications. This is where I, uh, caught the bug of the spoken word of copywriting and how to communicate emotions through storytelling. After that I got into the world of learning and development, helping employees become better versions of themselves. And in that era, uh, of my career, uh, I really got into, uh, emotional intelligence, helping people really bring out the best in them. And that's not to say that I was having, uh, a rose tinted life, so to speak. Lots of struggles along the way. And it all culminated in 2020, which was a pivotal year for lots of people around the world. Uh, myself, I've experienced a series of personal blows that got me into a six year journey that culminated uh, last month with the publication of my debut book which is called the Way out of Burnout. A four step journey to uh, move from stress to strength. And really the idea here is to help, uh, people who are stuck in constant cycles of burnout to break those cycles find their way out. And it all stems from, um, a very, uh, basic premise. Most people believe that burnout is caused by, uh, chronic stress and overworking. Based on my research and based on um, my lived experience, I believe that burnout is caused by putting on an act, performing in the literal sense of the term, in order to meet expectations, earn approval or stay in control. And that's uh, really the medium through which I'll be telling you more about my journey with marketing and how trust building has been for me for the past couple of months.

Speaker A: Wow, that's really interesting. Um, I'm going to turn the clock off here. Thank you so much for sharing that. I can't wait to get into Trust, um, and burnout. And I think it's so interesting that you said burnout happens when basically we're putting on a show. We're not being our full, authentic selves. That's going to be a good one. Um, but let's learn a little bit more about you. Pierce, before we get into the conversation in two minutes, could you tell us your full life story from birth to what brought you to now?

Speaker C: Well, I'm Pierce Kafka and I was, uh, born in South Florida. I've always loved movies. And so from an early age, uh, especially middle school, I was making videos with my friends. I started, um, my first company when I was 15. Um, that has. So it's been two decades, uh, building here. But when I was making those videos, it became pretty clear that didn't matter how good the production was if no one saw it. So I think that's where my obsession of marketing came from, of why should people care? How do you create content that, um, that matters, that offers something. Uh, I continued that, uh, passion through college and a career in advertising and my wife's background in publicity. Um, we partnered together to form our agency a little over a decade ago that is, uh, creative Integrated Marketing. And so our, um, belief is that if we build a team of people who are passionate about this creative approach to pr, which is not just announcing things, but collaborating with our clients on crafting the story of, um, what's being worked on in a way that is a lot more digestible or exciting to an audience. And so we're having a lot of fun, um, with that, with our team and, uh, excited to be here today to chat, um, especially about, uh, what it takes to create content, um, with the team at this pace and not burn out. So, uh, I think it's a great, uh, triangle we have here to start a discussion.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. So good. I'm looking forward to it. Let's get into the topic. The first one. So analytics that prove marketing is working. So what are those analytics? Pierce, can you kick us off?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think analytics are Great. Hard data, UMVs, impressions, likes, um, they can all accumulate, uh, specifically, like when you're doing advertising to see what is my, the value of my dollar. Very specifically. Um, but a lot of marketing isn't as cut and dry, um, and there's deeper layers that I think aren't as quantified as easily or um, even attempted. So, so that's where soft analytics come in handy. These are the type of analytics that require that human interpretation to an experience to analyze and, um, leverage the data and the results into something that is actually meaningful and provable. I know that a lot of people in PR struggle with, um, justifying the attention and the spend and an announcement when you don't have hard data that is specifically tied to the result, like brand sentiment or, um, a cool quote. Uh, so happy, uh, to talk today a little bit more about, um, yeah, soft analytics and how that could be utilized.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. Soft analytics. I haven't heard someone call it soft analytics. Like what makes something soft compared to hard analytics?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, uh, it's less concrete. It's kind of like hardware and software. The hardware is the electrons going through circuits and the software is that code that we create, uh, that dictates and interprets those ones and zeros into something meaningful or into a dashboard. I think dashboards have been traditionally, um, these numbers and these metrics and what do things mean? Um, and soft analytics is something where you might get a different result or a different answer, depending on who's interpreting the data.

Speaker A: Nice. Nice. Okay, cool. What's your take on all this, Rabia?

Speaker B: Well, it's interesting because, uh, I've always avoided getting into the realm of analytics simply because there are people like Pearce and experts who are far more knowledgeable than myself in terms of, uh, uh, getting the data out and then analyzing it. So I've always relied on my gut feeling in terms of marketing. So I'm curious to know, what sort of advice would you have peers to help folks who really want to get into crunching the data and making data informed decisions when it comes to their marketing. Where to begin, uh, what to start with so that those incremental baby steps don't overwhelm them and eventually make them decide to stop, uh, pursuing, uh, their marketing efforts and furthering them so that they are more effective.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, that's definitely a great point. I think whenever thinking about any marketing effort, um, it is, what are the goals? What are your company goals? Not what are my marketing goals, but what am I trying to do as a company? Am I trying to increase my profit or my sales? Am I trying to recruit? Am I trying to build, um, a great investment, um, portfolio or a pitch deck? So I think starting backwards in that sense, um, then helps you define or have a direction for what am I looking for in the data. Because the data can be endless, it can be infinite. And if we're starting from first data. And this is what's happening and this is what I'm saying. And these are the results. I think, um, you can get lost or you can drown on the data. So by first, uh, specifying what you want, um, then you're guided and it's kind of like a fishing reel or bait, and you start catching things and you catch a little, uh, something a little bit useful in terms of information that can help. And then that little thing then you can use as bait again and catch something bigger. So there's no, uh, one soft analytics that fits all. Uh, I think it's kind of like an art and you kind of have to feel it. But as long as you have your true north, um, you'll be going in the right direction.

Speaker B: And do any of the vanity metrics relate to those soft analytics? Meaning are they still valuable to just keep an eye on and not really, uh, overtly focus on, or do you recommend actually not focusing on them at all when it comes to soft analytics?

Speaker C: No, I think that, um, both sides of the coin are, uh, important in that, um, you want to be collecting these hard analytics and be aware of them, um, um, to interpret them, that there is no one without the other. And in this world of AI and mass data mining, um, we have more hard data than ever before. Uh, and so I think that soft analytics has more of an advantage now more than ever just because of the hard data.

Speaker B: Nice. Are you seeing somebody who is really killing it in terms of using the principle of soft analytics really well and doubling down on the good metrics that they're collecting through their marketing efforts?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, uh, marketing has many different, um, tools in the, in the toolbox of what you can do to get the word out of what you're trying to say and what you're trying to offer. And um, in advertising you're paying specifically for specific results. I'm going to get this many views or this many. This is how much a click costs. Um, and in public relations or earned, media, journalists, ah, and media talking about you and your product, uh, there isn't a specific number. So depending on how you frame what you're trying to do and what you're trying to say, uh, for a fraction of the cost of advertising, you can get a much larger, um, return with pr. And so I think soft analytics, uh, probably do best in the creative areas where you have more of an opportunity to create, um, a conversation or a piece that uh, builds momentum on itself in an organic way and then you can Just let it loosen.

Speaker B: You want really to leverage people taking over your piece of content or your campaign and making it their own. And that's how people can double down really on the initial effort. If I understood correctly.

Speaker C: Right, Ah, soft analytics, uh, or result that you, um, see that is working towards that goal could be um, a really cool quote or a really cool opportunity that you got to do that then you can re package into your social media or into, into a book or into a conversation on a podcast, um, where it could find a new audience that they can then talk about it. But you have to know, you have to look for that and figure how am I going to take that result and how am I going to analyze it through soft analytics to really turn it into something a lot bigger in a magnified kind of way.

Speaker A: 100%, yeah, I think that's a really strong idea. And uh, not every valuable marketing result arrives with like a neat attribution trail. And you know, sometimes we need to get into the messy qualitative data and ask how people heard about you.

Speaker C: But it's not something that we've heard too often. Uh, we actually um, trademarked uh, soft analytics, uh, maybe a few years ago, but not in a way to stop anyone from using it. Um, just wanting to establish it into the marketing vernacular and so that everyone could use it. There's um, so many different ways that it can be interpreted and I just think that it's something that uh, we're going towards in the future and I just wanted to be part of it.

Speaker A: Soft analytics, well, there you have it, everyone, um, just curious from people in the comments, what do you all think about soft analytics? What do you call it? Have you called it something different? Um, but to wrap up this topic, analytics that prove marketing is working, what would be your actionable advice that people can take away from this and maybe implement even tomorrow?

Speaker C: Uh, my advice would be continuing to collect, um, all the hard data that you can. And um, think about how is this serving what the goal is of the company, not the goal is of the campaign, but what we're trying to do. And if you can distill that in a way that is valuable to others, which most people who are working on, ah, a company, a product, uh, or an idea, they're doing it because there's some higher value. And if you can get in touch with whatever that reason was that you created the company or you created the product, then that's the exact place that you'll find the value of hard analytics and the audience and what they're looking and interested in seeing. And that's where the true results are. And that's where you can utilize soft analytics to, um, highlight that for your audience.

Speaker A: Definitely. Good stuff. All right, well, let's transition into building trust before chasing more reach. So, um, this is your topic. Rabia, could you kick us off on it?

Speaker B: Absolutely. So, like I said in my introduction, I'm coming here today as a newfound author who has published a book. Uh, but the book writing journey has been a year in the making. And it was basically successive, uh, chapters, uh, pun intended in terms of, uh, coming about publishing the book eventually. And originally it all started with coming up with the idea of the book, which was based on my lived experience, but then talking about the message of the book and building that starter door of an audience early on in, uh, the writing journey, uh, even while I was still in the brainstorming stages of the book writing process. So, um, that was very valuable because now a year later the book is published and it's uh, ebook format and it's hard, uh, cover format and the paperback would be released, uh, on September 30, 2026. And it couldn't have happened without the support of more than 100 individuals who believed in my future, uh, journey as an author and in the future prospect of this book project, uh, who decided to fund, uh, my crowdfunding campaign and help me cover the costs of the publishing towards my publisher. So without having had built that trust with those hundred plus early backers, I wouldn't be able to sit here today and talk about the fact that I am a bestselling author who has published a book, um, uh, successfully, uh, and all of this to say that, that the paradigm shift that I went through personally was when I basically allowed myself to be more vulnerable with my content, particularly on LinkedIn, and share my story in, uh, as raw of a format as possible, uh, without any, uh, polish and without any posturing. And this is where I noticed that people resonated with my story and were eventually rooting for me in order to succeed not only with the, uh, book writing and publishing journey, but also with the uh, continuing of sharing of that personal and vulnerable content. Um, not because people have prying eyes and want to learn more about the private lives, uh, of content creators. But I firmly believe that once you share your story in an authentic, vulnerable way, you might be helping somebody else in their own struggles, in their own journey. You could be a source of inspiration for somebody. And to think that, uh, I've spent so much time Shielding myself and my real self from the content that I'm putting out there might have ironically contributed to the multiple bouts of burnout that I personally went through, um, before, uh, writing the book and coming up with this burnout, recovery and prevention, uh, framework that, that I talk about more in the book. So it's been a fantastic journey and uh, every time I remember one aspect of it, I remember the importance really of, of building that trust with the audience, no matter how small it is. Because that trust is like the um, the starting fire that can really make it into a really, really big, uh, uh, tidal wave of support. And it feels very, uh, heartwarming.

Speaker A: I love that. How did you involve your audience, um, early on, uh, and like, your audience like to change the book itself because you were talking a little bit earlier about, you know, getting feedback from your audience.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Um, from the beginning, I've involved my audience in every step of the way. So this is what I'm doing right now, or I'm facing the blank page syndrome. And I'm having a hard time coming up with this next milestone that my publisher is asking me about. So really lifting the veil of every simple step of the process. And eventually that led to them asking me, we want to know more about the journey. So I ended up starting a newsletter where I really tell them about the process of writing a book. Because funnily enough, uh, writing a book is probably one of the most popular, uh, personal goals that a lot of people, uh, put for themselves, but a very small minority actually reaches the finish line. So the mere fact that you've actually reached a point where you have a published book is going to raise the curiosity of lots of folks, whether they are your hardcore backers or uh, uh, people who are just learning about you as, as, as an individual. So the idea of, of sharing about the process, uh, has turned to be effective because, for example, my audience helped me with choosing, uh, the COVID design direction for the book, uh, so they have skin in the game, which ergo, is going to reinforce their support, uh, for my author, uh, person, but also for the product which is the book. So involving your audience every step of the way has, has been a net positive, uh, throughout this journey. And um, whenever, for example, life happens and I miss, uh, an edition of the newsletter that is usually sent on a weekly cadence, I feel bad because I feel like I'm letting them down and they're really with me on this journey. Don't worry, I make it up for them whenever I resend the newsletter. But just to tell you that this relationship gets to be built, uh, with people from the four corners of the globe. I'm currently based in Toronto, Ontario. And to have folks rooting for you in Dubai, in Jakarta, in Milan, uh, uh, in uh, Maringa, Brazil. So, uh, it's really mind bending to realize that simply from you deciding that you want to build trust with your audience and you want to make a small shift in the content that you're sharing, you end up creating fantastic human memories and building very strong human relationships as a result.

Speaker A: Nice. Nice. So good. So a couple questions for you from David. We've got where did you get your cover designer? He follows up with I heard that important for the book. Even though people say don't judge a

Speaker B: book by its cover, it's actually so important. David, thank you for that because actually people do judge a book by its cover. And a huge aspect of whether or not people decide to pick it up and give it a chance is the pull aspect of the design. So, um, funnily enough, as a continuation to our early point, one of my early backers contributed the hero design of the book cover. And it happened as a result of me reaching out to the early backer community and asking them, well, I have different directions for the book, uh, cover and I'm torn which one to to the side that triggered this early backer to start a conversation with me. And lord and behold, he ended up, uh, contributing the, the icon that I cannot imagine the book not having it because it really captures the essence of, of the book. The way out of burnout. And it happened again just by you sharing where you are at in your journey and magic happened as a result.

Speaker A: Yeah, share your journey everyone. This is so good. Um, well, the original topic was building trust before chasing more reach. So just to tie us up, what advice would you give everyone on that topic before we transition on Rivia?

Speaker B: Absolutely. I used to be guilty of trying to follow the hard analytics and the hard vanity metrics of number of likes, number of followers, and that always ended with disappointment because no matter how hard you try, there's somebody who is outspending you or out creating content. Uh, and it's a never ending cycle. Um, when I flipped the script and decided to really focus on, uh, increasing the trust currency with the audience that I currently have, that actually resulted in ironically achieving the number of followers, goals that I have for myself and enjoying more the journey of putting yourself out there and sharing content. Uh, and that all ends up creating the reach that you've always wanted. So do Remember, uh, the fact that instead of chasing the metrics which are important to know, uh, try to create those connections with your audience because they will help you with the metrics at the end of the day.

Speaker A: Nice. I love that. Well, we've got two more really great topics we're going to get into here right after these brief messages. At, uh, reviting, we help B2B founders, executives, brands turn their live streaming into a real revenue channel. One livestream turns into a podcast, it turns into a social clip, it turns into email content like a newsletter and actual sales conversations. You get to have a lot of conversations with people when you have a podcast or a live stream like this. And if you want to be known, trusted and remembered in your industry without being online 247 worrying about your posting, this is what we do. Just head on over to Reviting.com and let's build your show. I want to give a quick testimonial for the Reviting team. I was really nervous about doing Lives. They very much have helped me increase my reach and online presence. So thank you Revenant.

Speaker B: I love what you and the team do.

Speaker C: I've been picking up 50 followers a day just because that content is resonating so well. It's working across a lot of different channels for me.

Speaker A: One of the problems that we struggle with is getting our brand out there. Her team have been able to do for us is the idea of going live on LinkedIn and using the that platform to its fullest extent. Through the way they're able to take the live event and break it down into bite sized posts, video clips as well as the content within the posts themselves.

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Speaker C: Yeah, I think that, um, making anything is extremely important, but also the, the narrative that you're building around whatever you're creating is equally as important. Rabi mentioned that they made a change. He made a change and he became more open with his audience and it created such an opportunity. But I'd argue that he, from the beginning was open with his audience and that he was being vulnerable and writing something that was very specific to him. And that specificity creates a universality for others to attach to and to, to become fans of and to spread the word of. Because there's real truth, and that's what people are looking for, is the truth. Um, it feels real. And when you're able to build behind the scenes that aren't just promotional, but it's revealing what's actually there and you're honest, you're creating a real human connection. And that's, especially nowadays, that's what we're looking for and that's what we gravitate towards. So, um, whenever you're thinking about whatever you're working on, uh, I'd argue that it's just as important to think about how are we capturing the creating of this so that we can package it and present it in an authentic way of what it actually is. Because sometimes the final product, you can't, you can't see it like a book, you can't read it. Um, you need to understand who Van Gogh was to understand a little bit how special the paintings were.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. That's really good. Human connection is so important these days. Everyone talks about it, but it's especially with AI and everyone being online and everyone's so isolated. Um, but yeah, I don't know, what's your take on all this Rabia?

Speaker B: It's interesting, uh, when you think about it, at the core, what do we all want? We all want to be seen and we all want to be remembered. And one manifestation of that is the content that we put out there. And when we think about behind the scenes content, it's very important right now from a marketing perspective because the AI slop that is surrounding us is making us even more cynical when it comes to anything that is advertised, anything that is promoted. So when you actually lift the veil and share something behind the scenes, that adds to Your authenticity factor. And it's going to render you more trustworthy simply because people are not only seeing the shiny, uh, product or service, uh, that is under very good lighting and very well polished. They're actually seeing the messy middle part. They're seeing the struggling beginnings. And they've been with you long enough on the journey to actually realize that you're uh, worth, uh, not only their money, but even more importantly their time. And this is something that is a very important commodity, uh, in general and let, um, alone these days. Uh, coming back to the designer, uh, who contributed the hero visual of the COVID of my book, part of the reason why he, he felt compelled to do so is that he was following my journey over several years. And he literally texted me and told me that your journey is real and what you are doing and what you're contributing is actually, um, relatable. That speaks volumes to uh, um, the importance of sharing those moments behind the scenes. Because those are the, the, the moments and the content pieces that will eventually do you good business, but more importantly build you those relationships with people who would move heaven and earth, earth for you. Uh, and that's really the magic of behind the scenes content.

Speaker A: Yes. I love that. That's a great way to put it. Yes. Building in public, it's so important. Uh, who is it? Uh, RB2B's co founder and CEO. I mean he will literally post the um, P and L statement. And it's just uh, shocking for a lot of people because a lot of times people want to hide things and hide things from their competitors. Yes. Adam Robins, you, um, and good content to learn with you, like grow with you. Um, I've been, when I started this in 2022, um, I have a woman wave group and it also started very early on. And group and WhatsApp. I invited both of you to the WhatsApp group. CO ED group started later on, but the women's group started early on. And a lot of those women have been like watching me go live every week for like four years now. And they've been there and they're like, in it, you know, like they're gonna, they're gonna continue to support me, um, just because they've, they've seen that story and they've kind of lived it with me. So like, as you were talking, I was thinking about a lot of them. Um, but yeah, it's, it's a really important way to market these way these days. Like people wouldn't think of that, but it comes back to storytelling and it Tells a story. But what's your take on all this, Pierce? Have you done any, like, building in public or.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, I think what we're all gravitating around is, um, this community building, this, um, this family, these people. Why should, why should they care? Why, why, why be part of this? Because they're on the journey as well. It's their story as well. Um, and if you're ruthlessly honest and you're. And you're. Then you're giving them access that only a friend or, or family would have, then what you'll get in return is friend and family. And I think that that should be our goal. When, whenever we're generating the work that we're doing is that we want to be honest with what we're doing because of the value it has. Um, and when we do this, we're, uh, building that human connection. The story is there. It's beginning, middle, and. And I think to do great behind the scenes, to do great community building, you do have to be aware of that narrative that, uh, it's not just pointing a camera at something interesting. Ah, any great documentary that we've seen, it's because the documentarian behind there knows how to frame the, uh, shot to express and show what the true intention is. And so any advice, uh, I would have is for people to team up with, uh, a filmmaker or behind the scenes photographer who is in sync with what this goal is and what the mission is, what we're trying to say, um, it makes it a lot easier to capture a lot less footage you have to go through, um, and you're able to get things up a lot sooner to your audience.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Such a good topic. Well, let's transition on to our fourth topic. Stop marketing resilience. Start changing leadership. What exactly does that mean? Rabia.

Speaker B: So if you're, if you're in for hot take, this is the hot take of the evening that I'm going to present to you now. Uh, the whole premise of the book is based on the fact that burnout is not caused by overworking. It's really caused by. By the act that we put out there into the world. And this cognitive dissonance between who we are as individuals and the versions of ourselves that we showcase to the world. Now when you think about the corporate world, uh, especially after the COVID pandemic, uh, burnout really became part of the conversation. And the solution that a lot of companies have adopted was really, um, uh, resources and uh, well, being, uh, initiatives to help their workforce, uh, develop Their resilience uh, become more uh, prone to work life balance and all of that. My issue with that is that companies believe that employees are only responsible for of their well being. Whereas in reality the corporate structure sometimes and the way we operate in the workplace is systemically leading to people um, falling into the traps of burnout and sometimes not being able to leave it. So rather than us promoting resilience as a uh, virtue and promoting those well being programs, uh, kind of like a do it yourself approach for employees who are having a hard time to pull themselves out of their own bootstraps and find their way out of burnout. I'm calling for leaders in the corporate sphere to actually build their self awareness and really do the inner work in order for them to showcase a more vulnerable, more authentic side of themselves to their workforce. Because ironically this is how they're going to create this psychological safety in the workplace that will allow employees to admit that they are burned out and to actually discuss the root causes further burnout. Because sometimes it might be the topical reasons pertaining to time management productivity, uh, being stretched into the role. But more often than not it's really something that it's much deeper and it requires this collective effort in the workplace both on behalf of the employee and on behalf of their leadership to really uh, have that honest conversation, conversation about burnout. That's what I'm hoping that my body of work and my book is going to kick start as ah, conversations around workplaces around the world.

Speaker A: Such an important topic right now. Burnout. Would love to hear from folks in the comments. Like when you think of burnout, what do you think of? I mean we all have our own stories. I think of being, think of a time five years ago when man it was the pandemic. Pandemic. I was working full time in the C suite, a very like fast paced SaaS company and a mom, two kids at home, kindergarten on the iPad. Holy. I was burnt out. And um, you know like you don't have to have all those things to be burnt out either. And it's just, it's so hard to recover from burnout. Um, in my newsletter today if you, and if you want to subscribe you can go to Reviting.com Newsletter every week I do a little bit of research on that like kind of related to the episode and it was talking about um, I go through and I review all this new literature that's coming out and people are burnt out at work. And for B2B marketers that's actually a challenge because like that is the audience we're targeting. So like when you know like yeah, we're talking about burnout and we're all burnt out. So think about, you know that VP of sales you might be targeting for your like to sell that like calling software to or whatever. They're burnt out as well. They don't want to read, they don't want to be confused. They just want something that helps them do their job and do it faster. But yeah, I want to hear from people in the comments like what are your stories of being burnt out? Is there anyone here watching? I see there's five people outside of LinkedIn. I'm not looking at LinkedIn right now but um, yeah, it comes down to leadership and that's what the research was showing a lot is that the companies that are showing like less burnout, however they were defining it, they had leaders that did things that brought people together basically to create more social capital where there's more uh, in person there's more like meetings where people are being brought together. Um, and it comes down to that connection piece. So the more connection people had not only to each other but to the work itself, the less burnt out they felt. Um, so take that for what it's worth. But anything. I see you nodding here Pierce. What are your thoughts on all this?

Speaker C: Well, I think that you made a great point about the in person and it's interesting how many stories you hear of during the pandemic burnout. It's something that you know I've always thought about and I've experienced um, uh, around the pandemic time too. I think that um, what it boiled down to and I, and I loved hearing uh, both your guys perspective is um, the work that we have is infinite and it's reoccurring. And there's this mentality of we have to get our whole to do list done instead of coming uh, to terms with the prioritizing. But I've also found that there's a lot less burnout when the focus is on enjoying the process. Uh, how can I take this process of this infinite loop and figure out how um to make it more enjoyable? And there's a few different ways. One of those is that in person collaboration and I think that's um, the chemistry of the team that you work with and that you build around you is extremely important for the chemistry, the biological chemistry that's going inside of you. And as long as you're passionate and you're seeing growth, um, I think that things are a lot more fun and I haven't felt ah, or experienced burnout um, since. So definitely a great point to discuss when we're talking about, you know, marketing and the type of work that we do. Because it is, it is something that is um, every single day something new. And it's, and it's, it's like sales, it's um, reaching out to many, many and hoping for a little bit of a response. And that could be um, overwhelming or feeling of burnt out after a while.

Speaker B: Can I just say that I love the point that you've raised about uh, enjoying the process, uh, Piers. And it ties nicely to the concept of sticking it out right until the end of the process. You find lots of folks now, they begin something but they have a hard time uh, finishing it off or ending uh, the journey. I, I can equate it back to uh, the book writing journey. Um, why is it that lots of folks do not complete that um, bucket list item of sorts that they have as a personal goal? Simply because they ironically end up burning out because they're overwhelmed with the so many different steps and phases they have to go through in order to finish the book. And the prime idea in their mind is how am I going to finish this book? Which creates this sense of overwhelm and anxiety. Whereas, and thanks to my publisher, I went through this year long journey where it was cut into different pieces. So we were focusing on every step of the way and not only was that helpful in terms of productivity to get things done, but also to enjoy every step of the way from the positioning phase to the content development phase, to, to the revisions, to the editing, all the way to the COVID design and now to the launch phase. So this idea of not only, and I'm getting too excited today, the microphone is having a hard time staying still. Uh, cutting through this process into several different milestones allows you to increase the enjoyment piece of the process and eventually enables you to get to that finish line.

Speaker A: Yes, get to that finish line, everyone. What is something that everyone out there in the comments has started that you haven't finished? Whether it's a book or anything. Um, I mean, what would be your actionable advice here? Um, really for both of you? Like how do we get people to take action? Um, because it really is one of those things. It's like you just got to do it. Whether it's starting the business, opening the llc, it's writing the book, it's. I don't know, what is it like?

Speaker C: I think maybe, maybe it's the opposite. It's that you Don't. You don't have to do it. Um, oh, yeah, you get to do it. I think it's, it's forgetting about the social norms of having to do. Or I told myself, or this was part of my identity five years ago when I started it. Um, part of the enjoying the process is because this is the process that you find enjoying. Um, and sometimes it's easy to lose sight of that because you're thinking about whatever the end goal is or the deadline or the results may be. Uh, but if you can get back in touch with why you started, you might find and you think creatively about different ways that you can, um, uh, set yourself in the right environment to be able to enjoy the process. Um, it's not supposed to be, uh, easy, but it's not supposed to be, uh, obviously wrong. And I think like, sometimes that the burnout is when we get in the obviously wrong, uh, areas.

Speaker A: Yeah, I really like that. Like, what can we eliminate to make more room for the good, for the things that we want to work on? Like, just because we started it doesn't mean we have to finish it. Just because you started that business. If you're not enjoying it, maybe you don't have to do it or be

Speaker C: very careful about what you start.

Speaker A: Yeah, super intentional.

Speaker B: Which ties nicely to the piece on self awareness that we talked about earlier. Right. So you, knowing what are your strengths, what are your true passions, what is it that you've always wanted to, uh, do or achieve, but you've been kicking the can down m the road for whatever reason? Those are usually the indications that only when you're really honest with yourself and, uh, spend some time exploring your inner world and really understanding what pushes your buttons, what excites you. It requires time, it requires space, but more importantly, it requires that intention to step into your inner world and start discovering.

Speaker C: And do you ever notice the people who are really successful or the best at what they do seem like they're enjoying it?

Speaker A: It's true. Yeah. Anytime I was on a successful team, um, one of the most successful being the Obama campaign. Like, we were just having a great time. I mean, I met lifelong friends on the Obama campaign. Um, like the girl whose desk was next to mine, like we were in each other's weddings, like we still are in touch these days. Like, um, yeah, just like lifelong relationships and like every time we won, even a small one, like, we would just celebrate together so big, like we would go out together. Um, and same thing, like when I was at a fast growth SaaS company same thing. Like we were having the time of our lives. It was so fun and we were working really hard. So I think that's such a great point. But all right, these are great topics, but we have to make wrap up. We've got eight minutes here and we've got one segment left. It's the guru of the guru of the Week. The guru of the week. Awesome. So who do you follow and who inspires both of you on LinkedIn? Rabia.

Speaker B: I'm going to give a shout out to my, um, publisher, Eric Koster. So he is the founder of Manuscripts Press, and he's the reason I'm sitting in front of you today, uh, advertising myself as a published author. Uh, and, um, he offers his community, um, um, quite a novel approach to writing a book, which is ironically not writing it, but building it. And it's very well connected to the marketing piece as well. How do you connect with an audience? How do you grow that audience so that they act as your ambassadors and carry your message? So it's been, uh, quite an insightful journey throughout this past year. Uh, we've learned a lot, not only about the craft of writing, but also about the craft of marketing and personal branding. And it's all coming to fruition right now as we speak, uh, seeing my book being published and all. So I highly recommend that you follow, um, his content on LinkedIn. He has a weekly newsletter as well, where he talks more about, uh, writing in general and the process of book building in particular as well. Uh, because I don't know if you've seen on your feeds, but, uh, it seems like everybody is writing books these days, so they're definitely onto something there. And if you're considering partnering with someone, uh, who could help you achieve that goal, I know for a fact that, uh, Eric helped me achieve mine, so I'm very grateful to him.

Speaker C: And I'm going to shout out my wife and co founder, business partner, Michelle Kafka. You can follow her on LinkedIn and she's a great thought leader and you can find some of the writings that, uh, she's done in different publications. But she's also someone great to reach out to if you're working on something or you're thinking about something, um, to just, uh, hear what she thinks and be curious. Uh, both Michelle and I are, um, eager to hear from entrepreneurs and people trying to make the world a better place. Uh, and if you have that story or you're interested, um, you can definitely reach out to Michelle.

Speaker B: Is she out of frame right now? Telling you to say these things, Pierce, I'm just wondering.

Speaker C: No, no, but she's got my back, I've got hers, and we're pretty good yin and yang. I don't think that, uh, um, what we've been able to do would be possible if uh, there wasn't that kind of trust with. You've got this and I've got this.

Speaker B: That's awesome.

Speaker A: Yes, that is awesome. Amazing. So good. Well, before we go, we just want to know a little bit more about both of you. Who it is you serve, how you serve them, and if they could be served by you. How do they reach you? Pierce.

Speaker C: I'm, um, Pierce Kafka, part of Kafka Media Group. Um, we've got a great team who is dedicated on figuring out what is the best way that we can tell a story and to what audience and where. Uh, you could find us at kafka.com or @kafka Media Group on Instagram. And um, my Instagram is ears Kafka.

Speaker A: Nice. And how about you, Rabia?

Speaker B: So I help professionals on autopilot go from burned out to locked in, uh, with my proprietary flow framework. Uh, and uh, I do that through keynote speaking, um, one on one coaching and executive facilitation of workshop experiences, uh, in companies. If, uh, people want to learn more about uh, what I do, uh, they can go to my website, rabiaspeaks.com. that's R A B I H speaks.com and that's also my handle for most of the socials, uh, your LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube. And if you're interested to learn more about uh, what is it that that uh, I wrote about, uh, the book is out on uh, Amazon in your marketplace. Uh, it's called the Way out of Burnout. A four step journey to move from stress to strength.

Speaker A: So good. Thank you both so much. This has been an awesome episode and thank you everyone for tuning in. It was so great to see Erica in the comments. I mean a few others that stopped in, of course. David, thank you for all your comments as well. Um, but until next week, we will be, uh, closing out shop here tonight. But Rabia and Pierce, I'll be hopefully seeing you backstage. I'm going to close out with an intro or an outro video. Um, but we just want to make sure that you know, everything uploads because we're on the Internet and we'll get high quality videos and make some clips. Put this out post production so you'll stay tuned to see some clips of from this on all the socials as well as podcast. You can find it on all podcast channels. But I hope you all have a great night. Rabia and here. I'll see you backstage. Everyone else, see you next week. Sam.