How to Drive Pipeline and Revenue with Behavior-Based Marketing

Speaker A: Foreign. High Level is a full CRM and marketing platform and I've used some of the best in the SaaS industry. Sam, Welcome to Wednesday. Uh, Wednesday is better than the Knicks if you're here. I was just joking backstage with our two guests who will be introducing you to tonight about that. But if you're here, we want to know where you're tuning in from and let us know what it is that you're doing. Are you watching the Knicks game? Are you not watching the Knicks game? But also we're going to be getting into, you know, work stuff. So what industry are you in and what's your role? What are you working on? What we're talking about tonight is driving pipeline. We've got behavior based marketing. We're talking about loyalty rewards. I see there's nine of you on YouTube. Not even sure. I'm not looking at LinkedIn right now. But let us know if you're here by leaving a comment. Like questions, comments. We want to hear from you. We want to make this conversation about you. But I'll be bringing on the guests here in just a moment. But I want to tell you a little bit about High Level. High Level is a CRM and marketing automation platform that we use here internally. You don't need to spend boatloads of money on your marketing platform anymore. Like tech is cheap and you know, this one is super robust. We've even white labeled it and we give it to all of our clients here internally. It's an agency platform as well. 21 of you here on YouTube, like hello, let us know where you're tuning in from. Have you used High Level? Do you use HubSpot? What are you using out there? Maybe try High Level. We've got the affiliate code right here on the screen. Or if you're listening on podcast later on, go to reviting.comhigh level and try it out. And Streamyard, I want to tell you about Streamyard because this is what we're using to go live right now. And we like it because it allows us to be super creative and stream across multiple destinations. So right now we are streaming simultaneously on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch X Instagram and LinkedIn. Then we repurpose this to Spotify and all the other places later on. But within streamyard we can do all of the live stuff, which makes it super easy. And I've been finding that like people are actually signing up on this affiliate link when I show it on the screen. Like teams of people who are going live because we live streaming LinkedIn said it themselves. If you saw my newsletter today@uh, revening.com newsletter, they said it themselves. There's 25 times more engagement on a live stream than a regular post. So if you're not going live, your team's not going live. You might want to consider that and maybe just do it yourself. Scan this QR code. I'd be glad to help set you up. It is my affiliate link. Otherwise that's what we do here at Reveng. It's a done for you service. But I digress. Let's bring our guests in. Welcome to the show. Bill and Jacqueline, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker B: Hi, how's everybody? Thanks for having us, Jesse.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Um, yeah, happy to be here and I'm excited to learn more about you both and spend this hour with you on these topics. But as we talked about during pre show, we'd love to get a two minute little blurb of you in terms of like, who you really are. Like everyone. Go search them on LinkedIn. They both have really great credentials of course, otherwise they wouldn't be on this show. Just kidding. Um, but no, seriously, they both have some really great credentials that speak for them. Um, but you know, we want to know what makes you human. Jaclyn, could you kick us off with your two minutes from birth to what brought you to now?

Speaker C: I sure can. So I actually, um, funny story. I in sixth grade decided that I liked advertising and did an entire science fair project on um, civilization Advertising. And then for a few years in high school and college I thought I was going to be an architect and didn't really love the isolation that the studio program was bringing me. And I, one summer between semesters decided I was going to apply for temporary jobs so that I could make a little bit of money and then also travel with a little bit of money I made. And the first job that I ever had as a temporary was at a marketing firm, um, from roll, but I still work there 26 years later. I actually just had my 26th anniversary. So I think that there's a lot of elements of marketing and design, um, that are very similar in terms of how you need to understand what's going to motivate or influence, um, people. And I think that my obsession with marketing has also brought, um, interest in culture to me, um, both in the world but also in corporate culture. Um, so I've been studying a lot about just behavior for years, but now I'm applying it to not only marketing but, um, internally to our culture as well. Um, in Oklahoma City I do a little bit of work with the art museum, staying in um, line with my love for all things beautiful. And um, I also work with an organization called Variety Care where we help provide um, information to people who are underserved in the health, um, arena. They can do a better job of taking care of themselves in a preventative manner and live longer, uh, happier lives. At AH vi, we do a lot of work with public health. We also do work with um, public safety, so highway safety, um, don't text and drive, that kind of thing. And then have done a lot of work with a tourism account in Oklahoma.

Speaker A: M. Very cool. And the clock is resetting. I'm going to turn it off really quick. Thank you for sharing that. So, yeah, the behavior studies are very important in marketing and well, I mean I think that leads into some of the topics. So I'll just hold off on it for now, but I'm looking forward to getting into that with you. Thank you for sharing all of that. And Bill, I'm going to put the clock up. Could you fill the space and tell us a little bit more about you?

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. So started, uh, my uh, my entire career, I would say, at the young age of nine, uh, with a paper route, uh, and I just say that because when you think about engagement and you think about learning what, you know, kind of drives both a 9 year old, but also what really matters to all the people that I was responsible for delivering those papers to, like news matters, information matters. And that was really my first, you know, kind of taste of what it means to drive behavior and engage with people. And it just carried on throughout my childhood, into my early days waiting tables, uh, engaging with folks, really understanding what was going to motivate them to have the best time, the best experience. And I can say now I'm not even going to say how many years later, but I still get to do that every day in my role. And it really does bring uh, so much joy and genuine just value in what it is I do every single day. I wake up every day pumped for coming to work. Um, what motivates me also is my incredible family. I am the father of three daughters. Yes, it might drive some of the gray hair on top of its head, but it's still attached. Um, my lovely wife who we just celebrated 25 years of marriage with, uh, and it just is inspiring to see both, you know, the journeys that they collectively have been on, the uh, successes that they're able to uh, realize. And again it just brings me so much joy to be able to see that in my personal life, but also the impacts that we're driving, uh, in my professional life as well. I am honored to be a part of an organization now that cares about engagement, that cares about experience, that cares about what it is that we are responsible for and delivering value. And we'll get into more of that throughout the, uh, time together here. But it is an absolute pleasure to be able to sit here at. Okay, I'll say at 56 years young, uh, and still get so motivated and fired up to be able to do this day in and day out.

Speaker A: Nice. I love that. That's what it's all about. Um, well, thank you so much for sharing that. And wow, 25 years of marriage. Congratulations. That's incredible. Huge. Yes. We've got.

Speaker B: When you're with someone you love.

Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Thank you for adding that m. Um, that part. I was just going to say hello to Corinne or Karine. I'm not sure who's tuning in in the audience and anyone else who's here. Let us know by leaving a comment or, or engage in this conversation because we're going to start talking about why great creative doesn't drive results. So, yes, it used to be the thing that we all wanted to be like the most creative marketer, but that's not the thing anymore. Jaclyn, can you talk to us about this?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I, you know, it's funny how you phrase that, because I do think that great creative still matters. It's obviously why people stop and pay attention to something. Um, I don't think it's enough, especially now in 2026, because people are using AI to basically copy other people's great creative. And there is this thought that maybe if everyone's doing the same thing, it's hard to stand out. Um, the thing about creative and the power that it has is it's a lot more powerful when it's built around a clear understanding of what it is that you're trying to achieve with it. And at, uh, bi our creativity, in fact, our entire team spends a lot of time on the strateg side and we do empathy mapping to kind of understand what is motivating people. Because at the end of the day, if we know what we're trying to accomplish, it's a lot easier for us to then, um, actually be a little bit more creative because we're in a small, you know, box. So if, if you can do anything, it's almost paralyzing analysis, um, paralysis. And when we have this is what we're trying to achieve, and this is the budget and this is where the message needs to happen. It's a lot easier for us, uh, from a behavior standpoint. You know, we think about also where people are in sort of their journey. Um, and I think this is on both, like a business to business side or a business to consumer side. Um, there's pre contemplation. There's contemplation, there's, you know, preparation because you're going to act, and then there's finally taking action. And so understanding where you are trying to motivate a person allows us to be a lot more, More, um, direct about the way that we're going to meet them and how we're going to hopefully motivate them in the mindset that they're in, and then that allows us to ultimately be more creative. So I do think that creativity matters, but it's not the only thing that matters because creative for the sake of creative is art. Um, creative for the sake of motivating, um, people is where the science part, part of what we do all day comes in.

Speaker A: That's beautifully said. And I'm loving this comment that kind of cracked me up was like, darn, I was about to say something creative. Maybe I'll just say, hi, um, thank you.

Speaker C: Hi.

Speaker A: But, yeah, no, you're right. And people always say marketing is an art and a science. But, you know, you're starting to make it sound like maybe we're gearing more toward the side science part of it. But I'm curious of what's your take on all this, Bill?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's funny, and I think we all, throughout our lives are motivated by different messages, by different, um, you know, kind of connections that we find ourselves attracted to. Um, but I do think that with the volume of, you know, interactions and engagements that we are all, you know, exposed to on a daily basis, it becomes more and more of a challenge to stand out and stand above. Um, so I agree, I think there's a lot of it that is the art side. But I think the science is becoming more and more important. And therein lies, I think, the secret sauce, which is the connective tissue of data. How are we analyzing that data? How are we understanding what that data is trying to tell us? And how are we developing a strategy, a methodology, a philosophy, a practice to absolutely then drive the impact, the intent that we were trying to, uh, gain. I think there is always going to be this balance between art and science. I think the volume of, I would say mediums that creative can now exist on. I mean, you just said it, Jesse. All the places that we are right now, live streaming, you know, just that. Think about that. Think about how many screens, how many individuals you're reaching. Um, but what is it, what is it in the message? What is it in the, the emotional connection that we're trying to get across, whether it is B2B or B2C? And how do you, again, marry all of that to come together, uh, to be able to really drive meaningful impact? And I think that's something that I'm looking forward to discussing on this, uh, on this podcast with everybody and hearing comments, obviously, from those that are joining us, because I think we're figuring it out every day. And I think with AI and Jacqueline, you mentioned this. I think that's just forcing us to be that much more thoughtful and, uh, genuine. I think with AI, speed, efficiency gains. Yes, all there. But we can't lose the genuine emotional benefit. Right, that I think we've all reacted to, responded to, engaged, uh, with a brand, uh, responded to an email, a message. And I think it's that genuine, you know, kind of component that I'm fearful of is going to start to, you know, wither away. And I think that's going to be a sad day if that is indeed you know, the outcome here. And I don't think that is our reality. I think we have every opportunity to blend AI and all these other great technologies and mediums together to drive real meaningful benefit, value and engagement.

Speaker A: I love that. I mean, look, I'm a creative, um, but to me, if you, you can be creative, but if you're not consistent, so I don't know what camp we want to put consistency in, probably science, you know, frequency, um, then the creative doesn't go anywhere. And then also, like, if the creative doesn't follow, you know, it doesn't, doesn't move the audience. It might move someone, but does it move who you're targeting? Does it move the buyers? Is it doing what it's supposed to do for the right people, then? Like, yeah, if you don't have that part and you're not being consistent with it, then I don't know. Uh, I don't think creative is going to do anything for you, really. But I do think that personally, you can kind of see through. I would love to know what the audience thinks about this. I can tell what images are made with AI. I can tell what videos are made with AI. Is that just me? Because I'm a creative? But, um, like that intro video we played on here. I did that myself in Canva right before this. We still like, we like the kind of like broken garage door, like pieced together artwork that looks like a human did it. Um, even though it like, man, it takes, takes time and it's like, oh, that's that last thing. M. We should have just like thrown it into an AI tool. But. And then the AI tool looks great, like some like, Fortune 100 company made it or something. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I'm curious what you all think about that. And then start with you, Jacqueline.

Speaker C: So every year I try to have a theme for our agency. And this year the theme that we chose was the work of art. And the reason why, um, we chose it was because there is so much beauty and iteration and, and efforting and putting your heart into something. And especially because a lot of the people that I work with have worked with me for 20 years or so. So there's just so many long time people. There's so much experience that I sometimes worry a little bit that, you know, AI is going to take that part that, that heart and soul out of what I think a lot of us got into advertising, um, and marketing to do in the first place. And I think data is so important to the equation. But the grit and the, and the way that humans communicate with humans, I don't think can be replicated. I for sure can. Well, I shouldn't say I can tell. I naturally now think everything is AI generated. And so even when I see things on my desk from people who've been designing for so many years, I'm like, this looks like AI. So I'm like, push it a little harder, make it a little grittier, make, make, um, make it feel more human. And it's funny because it's a, it's a hard thing to do sometimes when you've been taught to make everything so polished for so long.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I mean, there is some beauty in like, the lack of polish more and more these days. And I think it shows that there is still a, you know, a human component. And that's a good thing, right? I think, um, being messy makes us think, uh, more effectively. I think being perfect sometimes a, can drive, you know, maybe the wrong outcomes. Um, and I think again, knowing that we're all trying to attract and engage and interact and form relationships and trust with other humans, like, let's allow that to continue to exist while at the same time, again, maybe gaining benefit and, and value from some efficiency, gain from speed, gain but go back to what I said before. Let's not lose the human connection. The human factor.

Speaker A: Right, yeah, definitely.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we're getting some comments. Um, another funny one. I think Conan says some AI is good, but not all. Not the googly eyes. I don't want to fall head over heels for a bot. Oh, my gosh, yes.

Speaker B: You do not do that, Conan. There's not a lot of return benefit you're gonna get from that, for sure.

Speaker A: I mean, there are some googly eye. You see a lot of the, like, I don't know what you call it, a deep fake on, like, Instagram and, And Tick tock. More so than on LinkedIn. Um, but you can still tell it's AI. I don't know, but I don't know. Uh, this is a really great topic. I want to know more from the audience. Like, what can you tell is AI? And, um, like, could you tell even that the intro video here was an AI? Or, like, does that do it for you? Does it, like, not matter? But also, like, I'm curious what people think about marketing as an art versus science. And do you think that marketing is losing its art form and moving more toward a science? And could you close us out on this topic as we hear from the audience, Jacqueline?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I, you know, it's funny because I think it was somebody, um, from Mischief that was, um, on the Breaking and entering podcast or something, and he was talking about how they don't use data at all. And I think that there's something very interesting about that, because I think that if you have a lot of experience, there's something in your gut that just tells you that it's right, even. Even though you don't need the data to, to prove that, um, same holds true. I think for design, um, and copywriting. I think that if you've spent all of these years putting, um, your brain and your body through these motions in terms of muscle memory, that you're going to be better at writing or designing than somebody else is. And to your point, I do think that there is this idea that AI can help us speed things up, and I certainly use it all the time. So I don't want to say that I'm not using it at all, but. But I prefer the human aspect of, of motivating humans, and I hope that that will last way into the future. I can't say for certain that it will, but I do think that, you know, those of us who, who wanted to do the, the more romanticized advertising part, it's so much easier for us to, to do it than, than people who only got into it for just like the, the computing side. Same holds true for insights. I don't think that a computer can develop insights the same way a human who's been training to do that for a long time or even a short time, if they're, um, you know, a prodigy, can, can do it. So I do think there's an element of data not mattering, but I think it's if you're just really great at what you do.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much for summing that up and thank you to the audience for sharing. She said I missed the opening video. Oh, okay. I was asking about the difference and, and Joanne says that it depends on content Marketing is a science as it, as it is designed to influence. Um, but yeah, that was a really great topic. Thank you for leading that, Jacqueline. Let's transition now, uh, Bill, into rewards and incentives and how rewards and incentives drive pipeline. Can you kick us off?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I love this, and I love how it kind of falls right behind the great conversation that we just had, because I think one of the challenges that a lot of marketers face today is substantiating the investment. And how are we knowing we're getting the outcomes that we intend? And what are the signals, the leading indicators, the ways by which we are really understanding if this investment is delivering on what the intended outcomes are? Um, I think rewards and incentives today afford a lot of marketers just that opportunity. There are a lot of different ways by which rewards and incentives are utilized across a slew of different verticals and use cases. Uh, and in many instances, they then afford those marketers the opportunity to really measure the ROI and the benefit gain that is, uh, put forth in an investment of a reward or an incentive. Uh, if you think about employee engagement, uh, programs, if you think about loyalty platforms today, if you think about cashback, uh, platforms today, among many others, a lot of those are now institutionalized with hard goods and also digital goods like gift cards, uh, which happens to be what TILLO is a global operator of, and we'll talk more about that later. But the ability for us to leverage these types of, uh, material, real, tangible assets to be able to tie a message to an action, to a behavior and to an outcome is something now more than ever, that I think marketers are realizing the benefit and the opportunity that can exist when you're trying to drive engagement, when you're trying to drive, uh, customer acquisition, when you're trying to retain a customer. When you're trying to uh, ensure that you get a customer back, uh, and get them re engaged, these are all opportunities to leverage a reward or an incentive at the right time to be able to identify a behavior and be able to again consider delivery of that, the benefit of that, and then the value that is realized long term. I do think that there are, um, a lot of additional learnings that industries globally are continuing to, you know, kind of work through and identify. Um, and I think through that we'll just hopefully continue to see, you know, the impacts and the outcomes of these dollars. I can tell you if we don't. And this is something that again, I think we're challenged with and I think globally this is, this is not uncommon. Um, marketing dollars, investments shift. Um, and if we're not proving the value of these investments, whether it's trying to drive B2B pipeline or B2C engagement, um, marketers and so on, will be forced to use and move these dollars all around until something fits. Well, the question that I always want to ask is like, what is, what are the KPIs, what are the metrics that we're trying to measure and how do we make sure that we're holding ourselves accountable to hit those? And if we're not, I'm m good, but if we are, we need to lean into that. And I think by leaning in and making those investments in the right arenas, in the right way, um, can drive amazing results.

Speaker A: Such great points. And I saw your DM like, uh, a little bit too late probably, but you were asking if I'd ever heard of B2B gift cards and I don't think I have. Is that what Tillo does?

Speaker B: It is, yeah. Tillo is a provider, an infrastructure, uh, that provides organizations the opportunity to drive connection through, through branded currency. What the heck does that mean? Well, we represent 4,000 brands globally. When you think about Macy's, when you think about Home Depot, when you think about asos, when you think about Curry's, any of these types of brands globally, we are the issuer and the uh, provider of those digital brands into a lot of those different platforms that I was talking about globally. So employee engagement platforms, loyalty platforms, cashback platforms, they're all tying into Tillo's single API and they're gaining access to this branded content. That's great. We make it easy and simple. What's better is the economies that exist in the gift card industry and the ways by which the monies that these brands bring forward to drive net new customer acquisition. For themselves or retention for themselves. Those are dollars that we put out into the market, into those platform provider partners of ours to drive benefit and value out to their customers. Um, and by doing that, and by unlocking that value, and truly unlocking that value, meaning making sure that the brand that is making this investment, that those dollars are put into the intended recipient's hands. Um, there's a great, I would say, LinkedIn site individual, uh, by the name of Karen Webster that you should all go check out. Uh, she, uh, founded Payments. It's payments without any vowels. So P, Y, M, N, T, S. Um, and she just released a great newsletter that Talked about the $45 billion offer industry and how it's broken. And she just raises some great points around this ecosystem and the ways by which companies that want to achieve some of the things that we all talk about and we're talking about here today. Well, you have to make it easier to engage and enable all of these offers and put them again into the intended recipient's hands. Till prides itself in doing that. And, uh, again, we can talk about more of that later. But there are so many great opportunities that can be realized if done correctly and not frustrating a consumer. And really, the intended outcome is to create a great brand experience and a memorable experience and connect with these individuals emotionally. Well, if you do that, but you deliver it through seven clicks and four email checks to eventually get to the intended outcome of the reward being received and utilized, you've failed miserably. Uh, and those are, again, these opportunities that companies like Tillo are out there creating, uh, to improve that.

Speaker A: Interesting. I think most people, when they hear gift cards, we think retail, we think B2C. Um, had you ever heard of B2B gift cards, Jaclyn?

Speaker C: Yeah, and actually, for, um, culture purposes, so using them to incentivize employees for, um, wins, bonuses, time served, tenure, et cetera. So, yes, I actually have, um. I didn't know anything about, you know, um, the infrastructure behind it, but I think it's fascinating. It's really awesome that you guys are removing friction for companies in that way.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I'm curious from the audience, have you all heard about B2B gift cards? And what are your thoughts on this? And then, like, I'm curious, what's the most, like, innovative use of, like, digital rewards or gift cards you've seen recently?

Speaker B: That's a great question. Um, one in particular here, uh, in the U.S. so we have an amazing partner, Honey, uh, fund, if anyone hasn't heard of Honey Fun you absolutely should go check it out. Whether you're planning on a big life event for yourself in terms of, uh, a wedding or some other event. This, this incredible platform, uh, was created by Sarah Magolis and she is allowing her, uh, participants and users to be able to tap into this network of, uh, gift cards, both digital gift cards, the merchant gift cards that we talked about, but also branded digital currency in the form of a Visa MasterCard product that can be carried out in the wallet. So when you think about preparing for a honeymoon or preparing for some type of life event, you're able to go out to your community and crowdfund and they enable that infrastructure to allow for the crowdfund, but then they allow the enablement for going to spend these dollars that people have been so nice to gift to these individuals, uh, and they give them choice. And that's the other thing is, I think a lot of, uh, marketers, they just assume they know that everyone wants an Amazon gift card or everyone might want this gift card. The truth is people want to make their own choice and that's what their platform allows to do. So they're taking these branded offers, they're making them available to these uh, program participants. And again, the outcomes are just tremendous in terms of seeing how these dollars are being utilized. They, the vacations, the restaurant experiences, the travel experience that these individuals are realizing, uh, through the use of content provided by tulum.

Speaker A: So cool. What an interesting topic. Um, would still love to hear from the audience on this one. Um, but before we move on, is there anything else on how rewards and incentives drive pipeline you might like to add? Bill?

Speaker B: No, again, I think it's just an evolving, uh, recognition of the impact that they can all have. I, uh, think the more creative, uh, minds are really getting, um, you know, I would say, uh, deep into thought around how and where they can utilize it within their own businesses. Again, B2B or B2C. Um, and I think, you know, imagine the impossible and we can probably make that possible. Uh, and that's what's really fun about this. You blend again the art of marketing, the science of data, and the outcome of reward delivery and value delivery, and you can create some really cool experiences.

Speaker A: So cool. Awesome. Well, we're going to be getting back into some behavior stuff here with our next topic, which is why behavior change marketing outperforms awareness. But we'll get into that right after this brief message.

Speaker D: This is Mike, also known as Clean with Mike on Twitter. Mike hired a virtual assistant from cherry assistant about 2 years ago. Now he is a 50k per month business fully managed by a remote operator in South Africa. His VA from South Africa does the following closing inbound leads on the phone, Yelp and Google and Facebook manages his CRM and Golf high level deals with rescheduling, cancellations, any issues, hires and manages the cleaners and sends him daily reports and updates. Mike has a fully cash flowing business managed by a remote operator for only $8 an hour. You can also hire a US equivalent worker in the Philippines, South Africa, Latin America for a fraction of the cost with charity system. Be like Mike and grow your business with offshore staff.

Speaker A: At uh reviting we help B2B founders, executives, brands turn their live streaming into a real revenue channel. One livestream stream turns into a podcast, it turns into a social clip, it turns into email content like a newsletter and actual sales conversations. You get to have a lot of conversations with people when you have a podcast or a live stream like this. And if you want to be known, trusted and remembered in your industry without being online 247 worrying about your posting, this is what we do. Just head on over to Reviting.com and let's build your show.

Speaker C: I want to give a quick testimonial for the Revening team.

Speaker A: I was really nervous about doing lives.

Speaker C: They very much have helped me increase my reach and online presence. So thank you Revenant.

Speaker B: I love what you and the team do. I've been picking up 50 followers a

Speaker C: day just because that content is resonating so well.

Speaker B: It's working across a lot of different channels for me.

Speaker A: One of the problems that we struggle with is getting our brand out there. Her team have been able to do for us is the idea of going live on LinkedIn and using that platform to its fullest extent through the way they're able to take the live event and break it down into bite sized posts, video clips and as well as the content within the posts themselves. Awesome. And we are back. Let's get into that third topic. So why behavior change marketing outperforms awareness? Jaclyn, what can you teach us on this?

Speaker C: Okay, so I was just thinking about this bill when you were talking about the Honey Fund. Um, a lot of like product intro or industry intros can be done using behavior change marketing. And if you want to just like think about Honey Fund and Jesse, I don't know if you were familiar with Honey Fund or not, but I think I started donating to Honey Funds a few years ago so I'm not sure how long they've been in business, but I actually Love the concept. There's a stigma sometimes with people giving people money instead of giving them something tangible. And the culture has sort of moved. Um, you know, younger generations much prefer experiences over things, um, especially because they are, you know, they don't need clutter, they don't need a bunch of stuff. So if you think about behavior change marketing in the sense of, like, when Honey Fund was introducing itself, what they had to do, they. They didn't need to know. They didn't need people to know about Honey Fund in general. They needed people to understand the. The concept of Honey Fund, which is allowing you to contribute to something that the couple or, you know, like you were saying, bill, somebody who's experiencing some major life thing actually wants. And it took the weird, um, you know, kind of the icky feeling of like, I'm going to crowdfund something for myself. And it made it, like, don't you want to give me something, um, that I really, really want, that me and my future spouse really, really want? And so if we're focusing on what it is that we want people to think differently or what we want people to do differently, that's the difference in an awareness message or really focusing on changing behaviors. And sometimes, you know, when I was talking about empathy maps earlier, we're trying to kind of put ourselves in the shoes of the person who, um, either a, wants to receive the Honey Fund money or B, wants to give the Honey Fund money. And why wouldn't you? Well, maybe it seems odd to you, or maybe you're worried that the money isn't going to make it to the couple, or maybe you're worried that the money is going to have some giant fee taken out of it or that it would be easier for you to give them cash. You can think of all these different barriers, um, that prevent or demotivate this change in thinking. And so that's what behavior change marketing exists to do. It's to take a person from not just awareness, but moving them all the way to acting. So I know of Honey Fund, but I need to be educated more about the benefits of Honey Fund, and I need to get comfortable with donating money to said couple via Honey, uh, fund, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: 100%. So interesting. And I like that example. You had, like, the perfect example to lead in with this. I see you nodding, Bill. What are your thoughts on this?

Speaker B: It's like, almost as if we practice that. Like, you asked me the question. I. I pulled out Honey Fund, um, which I thought was a great example. I love Jacqueline. How you just like nailed exactly what behavior based marketing is. And I think that's, that's exactly right. Like there are, there are evolving behaviors and expectations, um, that I think marketers need to understand. Um, you know, I mentioned Amazon earlier and I think about companies in my own day to day life. And yes, the volume of packages that continually show up not at my, not just my door, but now my daughter's door. That, yes, still on my Amazon account, but she lives in Chicago. Save that for another day. Um, but like we have all been Amazon, so what does that mean? Well, that means we all have this great experience and we now in every other engagement in our lives, expect a very similar experience. No friction, easy to use. I'd say the same thing about Uber. When you order an Uber and you get in an Uber and out of an Uber, you don't think about how you just paid for that Uber. It's that easy. Right? And I think the, those behaviors didn't just happen overnight. Those were learned, those were changed. And I say with each of those types of examples, every single interaction that a lot of consumers today, I don't even care what demographic you're in or age group that you're in, I would say that those expectations continue to evolve. And that's where these behaviors, I think are going to continue to demand. And we need to, as marketers, as business leaders, we need to recognize that and take people on these evolved journeys and allow them to all benefit and realize the value of engaging with the brand that gets us and understands, uh, again, what these expectations are. I, uh, think at the end of the day we would all benefit greatly from seeing more and more of this kind of institutionalized across so many different areas of our lives.

Speaker A: 100%. So in terms of behavioral change marketing, um, we got a question where what AI is good versus not good and

Speaker C: how do we know?

Speaker A: I don't know if that's related to this or maybe an earlier thing we were talking about, But yeah, I guess in terms of honey fund and then this topic of behavior change, can you think of any other behavior changes that we've kind of. I mean we had the pandemic, so there was a lot of behavior change there. Um, like what other brands have done a really good job of behavioral change marketing?

Speaker C: Well, I think so many. I mean, I, so I've been in the industry for a while now and uh, there's so many changes. The ones that come to mind for me are, you know, like you were saying, Bill is buying something online and having it delivered I mean then it was having groceries delivered. Well, isn't it just easier for us to pull up and get our groceries versus go going into the store and over the time e commerce now we can buy anything online, even if there's a brick and mortar store. Um, bill pay. I don't even know how many years it's been maybe a decade or two. But we didn't do bill pay online. People wrote checks. And so you see these evolutions of how people are doing things. One client that I had a long time ago, which is so common now, um, was we were introducing the idea of virtual school. And this is way pre pandemic, but it was for students who had um, other needs. So maybe their needs were they needed to help take care of their family so they had to have a job that was during regular school hours or they were pursuing some, you know, talent or sport that they were very good at and needed to have time that wasn't, you know, a typical, whatever, eight to three, uh, even virtual meetings. I mean obviously there's always been TV or broadcast as long as I've been alive anyway, but there weren't virtual meetings. And now even though there was the technology and people were using them, we have replaced so much um, in the car time working remotely. And all of this was again a result of the pandemic. And I don't know that it wouldn't have happened anyway, but it probably pushed us a little faster than we thought we were going to go. One of the prime examples, um, that I use all the time because VI, a million years ago introduced uh, recycling in one, like a community nearby here. It's so weird to me as a, uh, 40 plus year old to think that there were people that weren't recycling. I can't even imagine a time where you weren't recycling things. That's just common. Uh, it's a social norm now and that's how really everything progresses. So the idea that there are gift cards, the idea that now you can give virtual gift cards, the idea that uh, you're helping crowdfund for things. There was someone in our community the other day who got, you know, in a very, very bad accident and it was so easy for his friends to just sort of like publish quickly. Like, hey, our friend needs help because he's not going to be able to work. That that couldn't have happened as easily 10 or 15 years ago. So I think if you're afraid of change, you know, buckle up because things change so rapidly now. And I think that AI is is really forcing the issue. But people are going to change no matter what. It's kind of like what side of that you want to be on. Do you want to be on the side that didn't evolve? Or do you want to be on the side that's predicting what the next thing is? And it's helping people get there 100%.

Speaker A: The only constant is change. As they say, man, in marketing, it's just always changing every day. We did get a long comment here. I think it goes back to the gift cards real quick, so I wanted to bring it up. Bill Finalde is saying gift cards are increasingly becoming a form of programmable value rather than just a reward. The most interesting use case I'm seeing involve using them to drive specific business outcomes. Customer activation, partner engagement, referrals, training completion and retention. When tied to measurable behavioral behaviors and incremental revenue, they shift from being a cost center to a growth engine. The industry is in transition and among those providers able to deliver driving these types of outcomes. You know, I didn't even when we put these topics together, you know, because we always have guest book, um, separately, because you don't know who else is going to be available that day. And we take the topics and try to make one story out of it. Never thought that it would just blend together so perfectly. But yeah, I mean, in terms of the behavior change there, Jacqueline, like, what might you add to that comment?

Speaker C: Well, so nudging is, um, something that you use in behavior change theory as well. So if you think about when you go to a grocery store, you've been nudged the entire time you've been shopping for groceries, they were putting something way at the back. Then they would put things at eye level. Typically bad for you foods. If I was trying to get someone to eat healthy foods, I would make those more accessible. Um, I would make, you know, healthy meals easier, et cetera. So if I'm looking from like a gift cards perspective and that comment. Thank you for whoever put that lengthy comment there. Um, if you're trying to think about how you're going to get an employee to do something that you need them to do and then to reward them for doing that, you know, little tiny incentives end up, end up pushing them, you know, all the way across. There's something else else called habit stacking. I don't know if you guys are familiar with this. There's an excellent book called Atomic Habits. The name of it or the author I cannot think of right now. It's an excellent book, but it talks about how if there's something that you enjoy doing and there's something that you don't enjoy doing, if you try to stack the two together. So for instance, I don't love to read workbooks. I like to, to receive the information, but like, reading them is so boring to me. But if I will listen to them while I'm going on a walk because I enjoy the walk and the other part's hard for me, then I'm creating a habit stack that's making one thing related to another. If you're trying to get an employee to do something and every single time they do X that they dislike, they receive Y, which they like, then they're going to keep doing it. This is like all the way back to like Pavlov's dog, you know, know you, you're, you're trying to create a situation out of something that maybe isn't fun by enhancing it. It's why, when I know that I have, um, a TV show that I like, like, especially if it's one that you could just like stream all the way through. I will only watch it when I'm on the bike or walking on, um, a treadmill because I hate to do those things, but I want to watch the show. So I'm nudging myself in a positive

Speaker B: direction on a state. On a stationary bike, I hope.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, good.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Sorry. No, I'm not just like riding around town with, you know, a stationary bike.

Speaker B: Good. Yeah, good. The nice peloton feature when they added the entertainment tile.

Speaker C: Right? Absolutely.

Speaker B: Yeah, love that.

Speaker A: So good. And oh, she's mentioning the book. Is it Atomic Habit?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: James Clear.

Speaker C: Excellent book.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker C: Thank you, Corinne.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm really liking, uh, Corinne's mentioning all these brands like Xerox, that's just like, that's taking me back. But she's like, Xerox gave us gift cards in 2018. And then earlier she mentioned go to meeting. And I'm just thinking, is that even still around?

Speaker C: I don't, I don't think so. Wow. They didn't evolve, I guess.

Speaker A: Yeah. They didn't change behaviors.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, yes. So good. Um, well, before we move on, is there anything else on why behavior change marketing outperforms awareness that you would wrap us up on and any actionable advice you'd give people like, how do they do this?

Speaker C: I think that the thing that I would say is think about what is truly blocking the action that you want someone to take and then try to create messaging or even enhancing your product to fix that, so that you are making it easier for them to trial something or to reengage with you in the future. Um, even from like a B2B standpoint, you know, when we're selling stuff and I have a, you know, new business development team, I'm like, why are you making this so hard? You know, because people are, people want things that are easy. So I would just say from a, from a behavior change marketing standpoint, try to figure out what is, is, um, hindering your ability to get, ah, you know, your target to do whatever it is and then find ways to circumnavigate that so that you're removing that barrier for them.

Speaker A: So good. Well, we got another long comment. I'll pop up here real quick from Conan. Seems that every 10 to 20 years things have changed to the point it's unrecognizable and the past is forgotten. Now when I was a kid, we all knew things from the 20s, 30s, 40s. Nowadays you mention old Beatles songs, many people are like, must be before my time. Never heard of them. So funny. I actually love the Beatles and I love listening to them with my 11 year old daughter. Um, but yeah, I mean just the times are changing, that is for sure. Let's move into our conversation about loyalty. So before we were talking about uh, rewards and incentives. So what's, what's the difference now with loyalty? And then how are rewards and loyal? How do they drive new revenue?

Speaker B: Bill. Yeah, so I would say this topic kind of blended with the other one. But it should be noted that loyalty as a whole is something that I think has so many different definitions. Uh, if you were to each think about, you know, top three brands that you feel you're loyal to, I would ask you why, and I would ask you, if you were to tell me because you love the brand, you love the way it makes you feel, you love the way, um, that it, it holds up, you know, over years. You love the experience that it enables you. Those are all emotions. Um, and I think therein lies the key is that emotional connection. And what are those opportunities to create connection that really does drive that, that loyal behavior? Um, I think depending upon again, um, your generation, whether it's ah, millennial, Gen Z, Gen Y, Gen Alpha, I think each might tell you that they are loyal for different reasons and it typically would again tie back to what they emotionally connect to. Um, loyalty and rewards, uh, in particular have a really interesting, uh, kind of connection point. There is a lot of opportunity to drive engagement, drive behavior, drive a loyal customer to Do a certain thing, um, and it's all about what, what that incentive is and whether that's a soft benefit or hard benefit, whether that's a delivery of value, uh, in terms of a currency or delivery of value in terms of first one to board the airplane. Right. Those are both um, meaningful to different groups or maybe even the same groups. So there's a lot that I think loyalty has um, to consider. I think loyalty program operators and brands that are trying to create brand affinity, brand loyalty are challenged and I think have to work hard, uh, and have to be very thoughtful and have to be very considered in the way by which they're delivering these programs. Um, for those of us that are members of the Starbucks loyalty, uh, program, when they change their point to value, uh, algorithm, um, they catch a lot of grief. Um, and it just goes to show the benefit that a lot of the Starbucks loyalty customers realize and expect, uh, in what it is Starbucks is delivering. And when they take dollars out of people's pockets and make it harder to get a free coffee, a free beverage, a free snack, uh, that's impactful. Um, it's not to say that they don't have the best intent in some of their decisioning, um, but the impacts that they see as outcomes might not have been what they had expected. Um, so I think consumers today have a louder voice, more channels, more mediums to express that voice than ever before. Uh, and again that's where I think the thoughtful and considered way by which loyalty program operators and brands need to really be that much more considered in their decisioning and their strategies.

Speaker A: Such good stuff. And um, I'm just keeping notes in the comments as we're going. But like, I liked your comment about different generations and you know, how different generations they, they think of these things differently. And was just thinking of myself. Like my M generation, we grew up collecting points and airline miles and you know, rewards cards. I could name some other things. You mentioned Starbucks. I'm a huge fan of Starbucks. But then like the other gener, younger generations, they, we talked about it earlier a little bit. They want experience, you know, community access. Um, and uh, Corinne saying she also appreciates the Starbucks one. But. Yeah, no, I thought that was a really interesting comment and um, and then getting into Starbucks on it. But I'm curious, Jacqueline on all of this, do you have any thoughts on the whole loyalty thing?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I love loyalty programs. I think that anytime you have somebody who already trusts you enough to give you their money that you should um, continue to reward that behavior. When I was thinking about what you were saying, Bill. I'm thinking about nudging and how there's always these discounts for trialing someone or your first person purchase. And it really actually um, gets under my skin because it's odd to me that somebody would want me to be a first time, um, customer and that wouldn't reward, you know, the thousandth dollar I've spent with them or unfortunately the ten thousandth dollar that I've, you know, spent with them because I'm a very, very aggressive online shopper. Um, but what's funny is, is what ends up happening is, is I just unfollow them or quit getting their email. And then over time, you know, if something finally pops back up to me, I will resurface and then I'll get that, you know, trial discount again. So to me, I do think that, um, companies need to really look at where, you know, lifetime value is and reward that. And also if you see a dip in loyal customers trying um, to get into the psychology of what's causing that. So is it something that they don't value in your product any longer? Is it something that they, that they're not aligned with your values? Is there a price issue because of, you know, the economy? Uh, because I do think that that data for a loyalty program too is so important. And getting, you know, I love a survey too. I love um, learning more about what makes, you know, my customers or my clients tick. So I think, I think loyalty programs are not going anywhere regardless of what the format is. And yes, um, you know, if you want to think about like the experience side of it, you do see ticket, um, you know, early access to different things, um, as being something that I think the younger generation really values. So it's access and, and the miles thing and cash back is probably equally important because they can do whatever they want then.

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. It's interesting. And again, you're seeing new brands that continue to kind of break and penetrate different markets. Um, and the way by which they're doing it, the investments they're making to drive net new customer acquisition, especially B2C, uh, kind of brands, um, it's incredible to see the investment, but it's more incredible to see than once they acquire a customer, the effort that they're putting forth to make sure that that customer is, you know, evolving on their loyalty journey with that brand. Uh, and I give huge kudos to companies that recognize it's, it's expensive to acquire, um, but the more effective they are at retaining um, and as they build that customer base, the less they're going to have to invest in that acquisition. All right? Because then word of mouth happens, referral happens, benefit gain happens, and lifetime value creation continues to go up. And all of a sudden those are the brands that are going to recognize, you know, I think the big gains and the true loyal customers over a long period of time. What frustrates me equally in loyalty programs are the ones where you have been loyal. I, um, happen to live in a city where there's really only one airline, uh, so that's not necessarily loyal. I'm kind of committed to if I need to travel, which I do quite often, I really don't have a lot of options. Right. Um, and yes, I might have status, um, but at the same time, depending upon the human that I'm interacting with, whether it's at the gate, on the airplane, over the phone, um, I could have three completely different experiences. So I, I, I would say to those brands that they need to wake up, they need to spend more attention to the volume and the time, um, that I'm not only a customer, but the frequency by which I do, you know, kind of engage with them as a brand and so on. Because those myriad of experience can drive all of a sudden me, who's a loyal customer, to quickly become a detractor and I'll go seek another airline, um, you know, purposely because of that. So again, it's those, it's those behaviors, those emotional connections that I talked about earlier that I think play more of a pivotal role to these brands than others. Um, tying this to then rewards though, and incentives and really value delivery. Um, I think there are more and more consumers today that expect, um, to be recognized with offers. And I know where you just said, Jacqueline, that it doesn't always feel right to drive a coupon offer or whatever that is, but what companies do bring forward, and we've done some research recently that says this, that consumers prefer receiving a gift card to try a new brand than any other medium. Whether it's a coupon or a special offer or a discount, 89% prefer a gift card. Um, and I think that just speaks volumes in terms of what kind of true value can create in terms of a potential, uh, net new customer to a brand, uh, a branded gift card, putting a $25 hard gift card, digital gift card in someone's hands to come out and try out a brand. I, um, think that's a pretty meaningful statement to consumers today. I would also say that those that are delivering value with this ecosystem that I talked about earlier and allowing people to bank that value and a lot of the big cash back operators are doing this. There's a new one that came into the US market recently, Shop Back, that's doing a phenomenal job of allowing consumers to shop at their, you know, kind of everyday, everyday stores, whether that's grocery, whether that's retail, whether that's online, uh, and receive meaningful benefit and cash back for that. But then in building up this value of points and value and allowing them to then choose how they want to, uh, receive that, yes, gift cards and a marketplace place of gift cards is one of those options which we're proud to power. Um, but it's again, giving that consumer choice that I think is allowing them to acquire these customers and gain loyal customers because they're recognizing that choice matters to a consumer like that in a cashback environment. Um, so I think there's still, ah, a long way to go for a lot of these brands, a lot of these platforms. But it's good to see them, I think, responding in many ways, I would say more positive than negative ways, um, to what today's consumer expects,

Speaker A: 100%. Well, I had no idea I was going to enjoy this conversation on loyalty and gift cards and behavior change as much as I did. But this has been an excellent conversation. Thank you both so much for sharing your knowledge and leadership with us. Um, but before we go, we would like to know your Guru of the Week and our segment we called the Guru of the Guru of the Week. The Guru of the Week. So we just got inspired by both of you here on LinkedIn and other. Um, but who inspires you on LinkedIn?

Speaker C: I love Emma Creed. I've loved her for a long time and I want to say in the last six months she started her, uh, own podcast called Aspire with Emma Greed. She's amazing. If you all don't know who she is, she's sort of the workhorse, uh, behind the Kardashians retail success. She's brilliant, she's witty, she's cool. I highly recommend, um, everyone follow her on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: Yeah, listen, I follow a lot of different folks. I've mentioned a few of those already on this, um, but I would say one is Arthur Brooks, uh, you know, as a, as a professional, you know, kind of, um, wanting to again, drive change, deliver, uh, meaningful value, uh, to all the communities and both internal, you know, kind of peers and my team, but also my customers and the market and so on. I think Arthur Brooks just does a great job of talking about, you know, happiness in all of this, and how do you continue to strive to attain that, and what does that mean? And how is that measured? Uh, and how do you hold yourself to a standard that allows you to do that? So he's a guy that I would

Speaker C: highly recommend following the strength. Right? He wrote that book.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker C: Yeah. He's an excellent. He's excellent. 100% agree with that.

Speaker A: Amazing. I just try to tag both of them in the comments here. Hopefully I got the right. I'm agreed. Is that how you spell her last name?

Speaker C: Uh, yes.

Speaker A: Okay, and then I'm guessing, is it Dr. Arthur Brooks? I didn't see another Arthur Brooks. And it said he was a New York Times best author, and he just said he had a book.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: I'm assuming that's the one. But thank you both for sharing that. And then before we go, one more thing. We just want to know a little bit more about you, who you serve, how you serve them, and if they could be served by you. How do they reach you? Bill?

Speaker B: Yeah, listen, I think hopefully those that have tuned in here and thank you again for taking the time. I haven't checked the score, but I'm hoping the Knicks are up by just a few points. Uh, first half really doesn't matter. Um, but no, I would. I would say reach out to us.

Speaker A: Tiller.

Speaker B: Uh dot com. Uh, we think that we are enabling this innovation in and around the digital rewards and incentive space. Uh, we are all about driving connection and enabling our partners to, uh, connect to their customers, uh, to drive meaningful impact, to drive the right outcomes. Uh, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out to. Reach out to me on my LinkedIn. Would love to have a conversation.

Speaker A: Nice. And how about you, Jacqueline?

Speaker C: We cover the gamut. So banks, hospitals, healthcare, um, QSRs, tourism, and then public health, um, private health. All of the above. And it is a matter of if you're doing a product introduction or you're finding that you need to sort of move the mindset of people you're trying to reach. We are experts at that, and we would love to hear from you.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing and thank you to the audience for tuning in. We will be back again next week with two more great guests. And Bill and Jacqueline, I will see you backstage. Everyone else will see you next week. Thanks a lot, Sam m.