The Talent Game Podcast · 2026-03-06 · 53 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
53 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
This episode examines the Chief Revenue Officer role specifically within the gaming industry, featuring two B2B gaming tech executives. Paul Bowen leads revenue at Appcharge, which helps game publishers sell directly to players on the web to improve margins and run better app store offers. Dan Laughlin is CRO at Gamesight, which provides attribution measurement for PC and console games plus influencer marketing services for game launches. Both define the CRO role as a connector between market reality and internal priorities, responsible for deciding what to say no to, building narrative, hiring and coaching go-to-market teams, and managing pricing, packaging, forecasting, and cross-functional alignment as the company scales. The episode explores how the role manifests differently in B2B gaming tech versus B2C game studios - where monetization, lifecycle management, and user acquisition become focal points rather than enterprise sales. Both speakers came up through business development and partnerships rather than traditional sales, highlighting that CRO paths vary by founder profile and business model. The conversation covers ideal timing for bringing in a CRO (typically after product-market fit when scaling revenue), how the CEO often handles sales in very early stages, and why senior sales leadership becomes critical once venture funding and growth acceleration begin.
In B2B gaming tech like Appcharge and Gamesight, the CRO owns direct sales to other game publishers. In B2C game studios, the equivalent role typically doesn't carry the CRO title and instead manages monetization, player lifecycle management, CRM, and ads rather than enterprise sales.
Most companies should hire a CRO after achieving product-market fit and when ready to scale revenue meaningfully, typically around the Series A funding stage or when the founder-salesperson cannot spend enough time on sales leadership.
In B2B gaming tech, many CROs come from business development and partnership backgrounds rather than traditional account executive roles; however, in B2C game studios, CRO-equivalent roles more commonly require analytics, data science, or game development backgrounds.
At early stages, a CRO focuses on saying no to unfocused initiatives and supporting founder salespeople; as the company scales, responsibilities expand to include team hiring, pricing and packaging decisions, forecasting, and cross-functional alignment.
In B2C game studios, the revenue optimization function is often split across roles like Chief Business Officer, monetization leads, and ads teams rather than consolidated under a CRO, because the work centers on optimizing existing player bases rather than selling to other companies.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode provides moderate substantive value with several concrete frameworks about CRO roles at different company stages, hiring criteria, and required skills. However, substantial portions are consumed by generic discussion (personal gaming habits, industry platitudes about 'passion'), repeated ad breaks, and long-winded elaboration that could have been more concise. The core insights - such as the CRO's role in saying 'no,' the importance of data literacy and writing, and the stage-dependent nature of the role - are valuable but not densely packed.
the CRO's job to decide to say what to say no to. Essentially, uh, building the narrative and making sure you're focused on those key initiatives
if it doesn't exist in text, it doesn't really exist. Like because something you said two months ago that just, just doesn't, you know, people forget it
The episode largely recycles standard CRO frameworks: hiring experienced operators, building scalable teams, cross-functional collaboration, and data-driven decision-making. These are well-established best practices. While the gaming-specific context adds some texture (finite publisher base, network advantages), the core thinking is not contrarian or first-principles. The interview questions at the end are solid but not novel in the broader executive recruiting space.
ideally you want someone who's done this before. So someone who's actually built that machine and has been through that process
you want someone in this role who uh, who can think strategically, you know, uh, horizontally, who can work with a CFO on forecasting
Both guests are relevant operational practitioners - Paul is CRO at AppCharge with 16 years in mobile gaming and prior VP role at Unity; Dan is CRO at GameSight with 20 years in gaming across business development and sales leadership. Both have lived experience building revenue teams at multiple stages. However, they are not household names, operate in relatively niche B2B gaming tech, and neither has led a massive enterprise CRO function, limiting the scope of their authority on enterprise-scale challenges.
I lead revenue, uh, AppCharge. Uh, AppCharge, we help game publishers
I've been in the games industry for about 20 years now, uh, in varying roles
The episode relies heavily on general principles and anecdotes rather than concrete data, metrics, or named examples. Sparse specifics include: mention of Scopely as an early deal catalyst for Loot Cakes, reference to companies Paul/Dan have worked at (Microsoft, Unity, GameSight, AppCharge), and brief nods to geographies. However, no revenue figures, growth rates, deal sizes, hiring metrics, or detailed case studies are provided. Much of the discussion remains abstract (e.g., 'building the machine,' 'scaling').
he did from a kind of business development perspective was get a, uh, a deal done with Scopely that really set us up to, to, to get the company moving
I was a VP at Unity pre ipo, uh, overseeing, uh, part of the ADS team
The host (Joe) asks reasonable opening and progression questions but rarely pushes back on claims or probes deeper. Questions are largely conversational and softball - inviting guests to elaborate on their experiences rather than testing or challenging assertions. There are no moments of productive disagreement or sharp follow-ups that would indicate the host is critically evaluating claims. The conversation feels genial but lacks the rigor of a Socratic or adversarial interview style.
So here with me is, we have Paul and Dan, all the way on the other side of the world on the west coast of the U.S. but um, I'll leave it to you both to do your introduction
Um, and just continuing on with you then, Dan, like, how did you get into the position of CRO?
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode of the Talent Game podcast, Joe Burridge discusses the role of a Chief Revenue Officer (CRO) in the gaming industry with guests Paul Bowen and Dan. They explore the definition of a CRO, career paths to the position, the differences between B2B and B2C gaming companies, and the evolving responsibilities of CROs in larger organizations. The conversation also covers key considerations for hiring a CRO and advice for aspiring professionals in this role, including the importance of collaboration and data analysis. Takeaways The CRO role is a connector within the company. CROs must learn to say no to ensure focus. The role of a CRO evolves as the company grows. Timing is crucial for hiring a CRO. CROs in gaming companies often come from a B2B background. Understanding customer behavior is key for CROs. Writing and communication skills are essential for a CRO. Collaboration with other teams is vital for success. CROs should have experience in building revenue-generating teams. Hiring a CRO requires careful consideration of their background and skills.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
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Speaker C: hello everyone and um, welcome back to another episode of the Talent Game podcast. This episode is going to be all, all about what it means to be a CRO in this case that's a chief revenue officer, um, how to hire one, um, how to become one, uh, really everything that you can think of about this position, uh, and what it means even specifically within the games industry. So here with me is, we have Paul and Dan, all the way on the other side of the world on the west coast of the U.S. but um, I'll leave it to you both to do your introduction. So starting with you Paul, um, over to you.
Speaker D: Yeah, happy to be here Joe. Thanks for inviting me. Uh, so I'm Paul, I lead revenue, uh, uh, AppCharge. Uh, AppCharge, we help game publishers so, uh, directly to players on the web essentially so they can keep more margin and um, run better offers in the app store. So quick rundown on who I am and what we do.
Speaker C: Perfect, thanks. And Dan, how about you?
Speaker D: Hello.
Speaker B: Hey. Yeah, uh, I'm Dan, uh, CRO at GameSight. Uh, I've been in the games industry for about 20 years now, uh, in varying roles. Uh, GameSight is a company that helps game publishers with various elements of their marketing. Uh, we have two kind of main areas. One is measurement, uh, so attribution for PC and console games. And also we run a influencer data and services agency so helping uh, with go to market for publishers a lot of times around game launches.
Speaker C: Yeah, perfect. And yeah, the common theme for anyone listening already is that you're Both on the B2B gaming tech side of things. Um, so I'm sure we can go into those similarities in a moment. But first the question I ask everybody is what are you playing right now? Uh, I'll throw that over to Dan first.
Speaker B: Sure. Uh, yeah, my gaming right now is largely driven by my 7 year old son. Uh, so whatever he's playing, which at the moment is uh, some classics like Rocket League and FIFA which I love. So uh, if it involves a ball and a goal, I'm definitely in. Uh, and then also some, some silly stuff like Forza. Uh, but then he's outpacing me on like ridiculous strategy process games like uh, satisfactory and you know, anything where he can like build a base on Mars and then it's like out of my league. He's already you know, pulling past me.
Speaker C: Well, brilliant. As someone who is both X EA and epic, I mean the uh, the, the FIFA or EAFC AS and Rocket League choices are. Yeah, that's great, great, great. Uh, I love those. Um, and how about you Paul? Uh, what are you playing right now?
Speaker D: Yeah, I used to be in console and I used to be into FIFA and Fortnite until relatively recently but I think I aged out of both those games. Uh, the PvP element of those games makes it, you know, you have to really invest in those games to be good at them.
Speaker B: That's why you just play a seven year old.
Speaker D: Exactly. When you're online and playing FIFA and the matching isn't right, it's not fun. So I'm on Royal Match now. M Mainly because it's just low stress. You can play in short verse and it's just. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm losing every single time. There is a win there in that.
Speaker B: I'm surprised at how often my kids want to steal my phone to play Royal Match.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: And Royal Match still has no ads. Right. That's. I think that's a. Yeah, exactly. Key selling point. So you can just load up, get a few levels in and out again. Um, and for me I should probably tell you what I'm uh, starting to play. But um, it was just a few days ago, me and uh, a friend, we were talking about our love for Metal Gear Solid and so I was like, I noticed on the PlayStation store, um, the very first one on the PS1 from 98, uh, the remaster is, is on a discount so for £10. So. So I picked that up and I'm uh, yeah, I'm going to relive some childhood memories with that one, I think, um, over the weekend. Um, great. So, hey, uh, I, we should probably talk about, you know, uh, CRO stuff now heading into it. So I, I would, I would love to know um, what your definition is of the role first. Um, because m. I'd imagine there'll be people listening that think what is a CRO or Chief Revenue Officer anyway? So, uh, yeah, Paul, do you want to Donna, give us your take on that?
Speaker D: Yeah, I do think it does depend on the stage of the business. Um, I think that can really change over time. But essentially how I see the CRO role is the connector between the reality of what's happening in the market and internal priorities. Um, so I think one of the most important things for me in my career has been deciding what to say no to. Uh, because I've worked quite a bit, ah, early founding companies and founders love to say yes to everything. And I think it's the CRO's job to decide to say what to say no to. Essentially, uh, building the narrative and making sure you're focused on those key initiatives and then as the company scales, hiring and coaching a team that can really go to market and take what you're building, um, successfully. And then as you scale up, working on things like projects, pricing and packaging, the solutions you're taking to market and as you scale up even further, kind of forecasting, accountability, cross functional alignment. But as I said, the role kind of changes over time. I think most importantly initially at those really early stages is really what, saying no to things and making sure the company is super focused and has some core, uh, growth trajectories in which it can really invest in and be successful. Yeah. So that's kind of how I would define the role. Uh, with a couple of, uh, roles and responsibilities, basically. Yeah.
Speaker C: And how about you, Dan?
Speaker B: Yeah, so, uh, everything he said, uh, for sure. And I think we'll probably dig into some of the more functional kind of things like cross functional stuff and uh, pricing and all that, which is definitely a big part of the job, but kind of at a high level. I like to think of it as, um, you know, we're the, I, I'm, I get to run the team that is responsible for taking everything else that the company is doing and putting their sweat into their deep thought. And we're the ones who deliver it to the world. Right. We have to get it across the line from, you know, inside the house to outside of it. And that's a huge responsibility to, to, to kind of realize the vision, realize the work you know, of, of everybody else in the company that's been thinking and working and coding whatever it is, and making sure that it gets its best shot at being adopted in the market. So that's kind of from a philosophical standpoint, I'd like to talk to the team about, you know, feeling, uh, a bit of a responsibility and a privilege to be that team for our company. Um, and so obviously there's a ton of things that go into that, but at a kind of, you know, it's, it's easy to look at the title and say, okay, it's, it's, it's revenue, right? It's, it's literally in the title. Um, and it is. And I, I think if you probably go back in time, I'm no, no historian on this, but I think a Chief Revenue Officer was not like a title that was thrown a lot, thrown around a lot in say the 80s or 90s. Not like a traditional title like a CFO. But I think, you know, companies have realized over time that, you know, revenue, you know, sales doesn't just happen. Right. And it takes someone at the kind of leadership level, thinking strategically, you know, being in the room with the CEO and everybody to, to make sure you're maximizing that opportunity to, to kind of, uh, realize the full potential of your product. So, uh, so yeah, it's a, it's an important and, and fun job for sure.
Speaker C: Yeah. Okay, great. Um, and just continuing on with you then, Dan, like, how did you get into the position of CRO? I'd love to know that journey through your, uh, career. Um, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think like a lot of people, I, I certainly didn't at 22, say I want to be a CRO or lead a sales team or anything like that. Uh, I, um, worked in some sort of kind of biz dev sales type roles in my early career. Um, you know, even sitting in a room and cold calling companies, asking them if they're interested in, you know, CRM solutions. When I was 23, doing know, outsource inside sales. And that is a job, a job in rejection. That, that taught me a lot very quickly. Uh, but I went to business school, came out of that, landed uh, at Microsoft and uh, into a, uh, kind of biz dev and strategy role. And so, you know, there's different paths to everything, right? Mine, mine kind of came up through business development. So that job and some of my first startup jobs were really around partnerships and getting people to integrate software where not necessarily revenue was on the line. Um, but you know, kind of complex deals and you know, deep partnerships and that kind of thing. So I kind of cut my teeth on those types of opportunities, which is really fun. Um, and then also kind of worked into the sales side of things in different roles and uh. And yeah, so I think you know my um, my kind of uh, experience in deal making and fostering real partnerships over, over time, which is a kind of a more of a human thing like real really like working closely with people and working towards common goals, uh was a big part of what brought me there. And then you know, uh, kind of the natural uh, just ability to work with, with teams and help people grow in their careers kind of got me that management leadership part of it. So. So yeah, for me it kind of came from the business development uh, partnership side versus say you know, I think a lot of people end up in more traditional sales roles like I was in a way. I've never been an account executive. Uh, so I guess I'm a bit rare maybe for someone who's running a team of account executives.
Speaker D: Thanks.
Speaker C: And how about you Paul? Uh, something similar or quite different, a
Speaker D: uh, little bit similar I think. Uh, Dan and I have actually worked at similar companies in the past but um, I study mathematics at university so I have kind of a, you know, data driven uh, mindset, um, um you know, you know performance metrics, measurable outcomes is, is what's kind of driven me throughout my career. So uh, I got into ad tech, very pretty, uh early 2002 uh and spent a bunch of time on the desktop advertising world. And really what got me excited was building marketplace places, uh, connecting buyers and sellers. Um, it was very messy at that time. There wasn't a lot of automation, um, it was a, ah, very manual work. But the world of marketplaces and selling marketplaces is kind of what got me excited. I loved the performance mindset that was driven by those marketplaces, um, the competition, the measurable outcomes, uh, aligning incentives. So I spent the first 10 years of my career building desktop advertising marketplaces and then got introduced into gaming in the 2000 and tens, very early into mobile. And I think layered on top of those marketplaces was this very innovative, fast, uh, moving, scaling world of mobile games basically. And so um, that really attracted me and very early on that learning a lot of things in the gaming world that kind of come from desktop and console and now was being applied to mobile. But really with a uh, performance mindset. Everything in mobile, everything in mobile is performance driven. Um, and I think that's you know I've stayed in mobile for the last 16 years and kind of ascended in sales BD roles uh, during those times because of building those marketplaces with performance mindset in a, in a market that is just so fast moving and innovative. Um, so yeah, I've, I've been, I've considered leaving kind of the gaming space on and off but there's never another space that looks as attractive in terms of how quickly it moves, how it innovates. Uh, last few years been tough but um, yeah, even in this most recent role at appcharge kept coming back to it because of the innovation that's available in the space.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny, I've had that thought at times like oh, maybe I should explore other industries and have taken a minute or two to do that at times. Uh, and m, anyone at my company would tell you I'm probably the worst gamer at the company. I'm like gaming, gaming is not my passion from a consumer. Like it is a lot of people in the industry. Um, and so I'm not like completely married to the, the industry from a interest perspective but boy am I married to it from a professional perspective. It is such a fun industry. Not just because the, the topic is fun but the people are passionate. You know, there's a lot of energy and momentum and it's always growing which means there's always opportunities, there's always cool new jobs, there's always new tech. It's kind of, it's always just forward moving and so when I look back at industries I've worked at in the past or you know, friends in other spaces. Happy birthday America. It's time to celebrate and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American owned spinquest.com what's better than fireworks and American Pie?
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Speaker B: Monday.com or people who've left games and come back. They're like, oh no, stay here. This is way more fun, you know.
Speaker C: Yeah, I, I, I mean I'm with you. Yeah. The games industry is the best. So yeah, uh, yeah, we all might be a little bit biased but uh.
Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Lucky and biased.
Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C: Um, nice. Uh, yeah, thank, thanks for the overview Paul. Just going to say so the common thing with you and Dan right now, it seems like you'd both come up through business development. I know Paul, you're saying like touch on account, account management as well. But ultimately like sales and business development seems to be the really big chunk of your earlier careers. And also you're both in the world of B2B tech at the moment. Um, so I guess the question is um, is, is that if you were to find a croat at a gaming company, is it most likely going to be B2B and again are they most likely going to have come from sales and business development? Is there ever a case where there could be a CRO at uh, like say a game studio? Or could there be a CRO that comes from any other discipline, um, uh, other than uh, other than sales, business development or account management.
Speaker D: Yeah, I can, I can take that one. I think this the. So we're in B2B right? And um, gaming. Uh, if you're in a gaming company, they're B2C companies. Uh, so in the CRO role what, what are you actually owning? Um, and to Dan and I, it's clear it's kind of the, the revenue that we're generating from sales to other companies for a uh, CRO in a gaming company. And they, they do exist. Um, I guess the question is what are you owning? If you're owning the revenue then what is your team doing on a day to day basis would be kind of the question. Um, mine and Dan's team goes out and sells to uh, other game developers to help them be successful. Um, if you're in a gaming company the CRO can be in charge of kind of monetization and optimizing revenue from the players uh, that they uh, already have in the game. So they can uh, own things like lifecycle management, CRM, things like that. They can own the ADS team as well. That could be another piece. Uh, but then there is another function. The CMO function as well is kind of the growth lever for the business in terms of acquiring new users. So Definitely there are CROs and gaming companies but that role is often uh, called something else. I would say it's not normally a CRO role. I would say even bigger companies have chief business officers, uh, and they'll see an even broader scope of responsibility outside kind of just some monetization. In the ads. Um, and then just to address your question around um, what that person's profile and how they grow in that role, I would actually say it's less common that they come from maybe a sales background or a BD background like Dan and I. I think more realistically if you want to grow in as kind of a business owner of revenue, uh within a, within a gaming company, you've probably built games in the past or I've seen some with data science analytics backgrounds because a lot of the work is about optimizing what you've kind of already got uh, as a, as a gaming company. So optimizing your player, your player life cycle than it is working with other gaming companies and working kind of in a bit to be. So yeah, that's how I would answer your question Dan. I don't know whether you have any thoughts.
Speaker B: I think you covered it well.
Speaker C: Um, well then Dan, I'll throw, throw it to you that like. So Paul was just saying about almost hinting at the, the timing. Um, almost said there's a timing for to bring a CRO in, in that you've got to. Paul you were just saying that you are perfecting and optimizing what is already there. So there has to be something there already.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker C: So, so um, so is there sort of a perfect stage in which companies would typically start to bring in, in a, a CRO. If so what stage is that and how do you think the role changes then from small, medium to large companies?
Speaker B: Yeah, great question. Uh, yeah. So you know just for background my experience I've, I've done, I think this is now the fourth company I've worked at where I've joined the company in that 20 like 25, 30 people range. We're kind of got a product, we know what we're doing now it's time to like really go and scale it. Uh and then I've done one super early start state of early uh stage startup where I joined as the, you know I joined the co founders after they had started the company as the first person to come in. And so uh, what I've seen, uh, my experience has been that like there isn't typically a CRO in that super early stage. Um the CEO is often the CRO uh because you know no one's going to sell the company better than them uh at that point point. And you're looking for those first early uh, early stage uh partnerships like the, the last company I was with a company called loot cakes. Our CEOs uh, the first amazing thing he did from a kind of business development perspective was get a, uh, a deal done with Scopely that really set us up to, to get the company moving, you know, and, and that opened up lots of other opportunities. Uh, and then I came in as essentially the CRO and a bunch of other things because you're wearing so many hats in an early stage startup, but I didn't have that title. Um, so I think then once you get to the point where you have a product, uh, especially if you've taken venture money and so you've maybe got some Runway and so like top line revenue and profitability isn't the most important thing in the company at that early stage. It's developing the right products and figuring out what you're doing and if it's going to work and how to price it and all that kind of stuff. Uh, once you've kind of got that figured out and you're trying to kind of start really running with it, that's, that's a time where you want some sales leadership. And maybe that doesn't mean it's a CRO, but you probably want to bring in a senior person who can think about this a hundred percent of the time. Uh, an experienced seller or uh, you know, kind of startup, uh, executive type person. Um, you know, I think for an early, early stage company, hiring like a junior salesperson, you know, isn't going to get you those kind of like uh, the partnerships that are going to leap the company forward. Right. You know, uh, unless you've got a kind of a low priced product that needs tons of volume. But a lot of times in the kind of companies that Paul and I have worked at, it's more about, you know, having big relationships with, with size, you know, medium and larger size publishers that kind of move the needle. Um, so yeah, I, I, there's no perfect time for it. But I think once you get to the point where you need to accelerate revenue in a meaningful way, especially if you have taken money and then you're looking to raise another round, it's like perfect. You're going to Series A or something like that. Uh, whether you call it a CRO or not, someone who is focused, their, their job is not, you know, like a CEO can only spend maybe a third of its time on, on thinking about sales or whatever. So at some point you need that person thinking 100% about it.
Speaker C: Yeah, brilliant. Paul. Any, any, anything additional to add there at all?
Speaker D: Yeah, I, I think um, often defects depends on who the founders are. Because if you have a founder who can actually talk to people then they are often the chief salesperson for the first year for that initial phase until you've kind of reached product market fit. I would say there are definitely technical founders who can't even really speak to people and um, there may be the case that they want to hire someone to help them, you know take that initial idea to market even before uh product market fit because they can't even have the conversations that they can't tell the story and they need to tell to a potential uh, customer uh to actually get buy in from there. So. But yeah, I generally agree with Dan. Um, once you've kind of achieved product market fit and you're ready to start scaling, that's when you should really consider uh, uh a CRO because those fad alert sales are great and they have to be the heart of the business but, but they don't allow you to scale. You know that's one ten pole client. But uh, to be a real business you need a diversified client base, diversified revenue and you need a team that allows you to do that and that's really what scro uh allows you to do. So uh, yeah, agree with Dan. But I do think it is dependent on who the founders are as well. I would say appcharge. Our founders are still a cheap uh salesperson. So if you, for where we are in our journey, a lot of my role is supporting them and just making sure that they you know they're, they're in the right places in the right rooms and um, building, building the plane as we're flying is essentially what I'm doing. So there uh, so you know I, although I'm tro, our uh, CEO is uh, is our best salesperson um which is, which is great for us as, as long as they can stay attached and we, we are still scaling. That's a, that's a nice place to be in. But it's unrealistic for the CEO to be the chief salesperson forever.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm also lucky in that uh, our company is led by a guy, Adam Lieb who is a terrific salesperson and I uh, often call him our CEO ae our chief chief account executive essentially.
Speaker C: Yeah, love that. Um, but like have either of you and if you've not had experience uh like being a CRO at a even larger company, like you've both given some examples there of like startup small, medium size and how that role uh evolves. Um, I guess the final piece would be you know when you're a larger company, let's say 500 plus or even a thousand plus, like how does that role evolve then? Like what gets left, um, behind, what new skills need to be developed?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think, uh, you know, I don't have personal experience with that. Um, you know, I've, I've mostly worked in companies in this kind of like you know, 30 to 100 person range. Um, but having talked to other people who are in those situations, my uh, understanding is, and I could see how it easily becomes this is you're, you're dealing, you know, at a 500 person company as a CRO, you're dealing less with like personal one on ones with your sales people, um, and getting involved in the nitty gritty of deals. And you're much more thinking about how do I run an army, right? What are the logistics, how do I make sure we're flanking over here? Uh, because you're going to have a large sales team that's going to have people you barely met them before kind of thing. And so it becomes very rev ops focused, process driven and tools oriented. Right. Um, now interestingly in our space, uh, there is, especially now that I've moved back into the PC console world, there's a. Games is a little bit weird in that we kind of have a finite number of publishers, uh, that spend a relatively sizable amount of money on things like marketing or whatnot. Right. Um, so there's not a lot of these companies that have like huge b2b games tech type or ad tech companies that have like armies of salespeople and just like, you know, like just machines. Whereas if you go like say for instance, my, my brother uh, is the CEO of a company that makes legal software. Their TAM is infinite. Any company with a lawyer they could sell to, that is the whole world. Right. So they, they can scale in this kind of very process driven, rev ops driven, formulaic almost way of doing business. Uh, and that is a totally, that's, that is a skill that maybe one day I'd like to explore. Uh, but I've never done that and it's intimidating in some ways. In other ways it's kind of exciting and interesting. Uh, the thing I think I wouldn't like about it as much as one of my favorite parts of this job at this scale is I get to be involved in a lot of the big deals and drive some of them and even do some player coach in a way and I get to know my team really well and I know their idiosyncrasies and where I need to step in and help or where I can let someone just run. So I think you move away from that and you turn into, you know, the driver of a large, large airplane.
Speaker C: Nice. Legionnaire. Yeah, almost. Um, yeah. Paul, uh, anything to add on that? It's like, I guess, larger company CRO experience.
Speaker D: Yeah. Having been a CRO, I was a VP at Unity pre ipo, uh, overseeing, uh, part of the ADS team, uh, reporting to the CEO at that time of Unity. So yeah, I mean it's exactly as, as Dan said, it's about building and scaling a team to execute, uh, across regions. Um, and really, it really is just building that machine that, that can repeatedly, uh, win and expand business, uh, you know, where, where that opportunity lies. So again, yeah, bringing revox, getting good, good at forecasting, uh, optimizing any pricing that needs to be optimized. Um, but yeah, it really is taking that initial, uh, success that you had at ah, maybe a series A and B and turning it into a machine where it just becomes highly predictable. And uh, I've done 10.
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Speaker D: Then there is no individual heroics. Uh, you're not working on any single person. There's no risk. If, hey, this person leaves the business, everything's going to fall apart. You know, you need to build a machine where you're de risked across regions, across people, across products. Uh, that's really the role from there. So that's really what you're spending your time doing. So whereas now I spend a lot of time with kind of the AES at that, at that point I would you know, I would only really ever interact with, with my leads. Um, uh, that tends to be how you change your focus as you scale up because the, the uh, yeah, the individual cases are ah, far more de risk than they are in earlier stages. Stage businesses.
Speaker C: Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, I was intrigued, Paul. I think there's are going to be a ah, lot of people listening to this episode that are either founders, um, running startups or that there also will be um, talent folks, recruiters, hr, et cetera, uh, all of which would be interested in knowing how to hire a CRO and what to look for. So um, not going to ask you to like the full process of how that happens but in your mind if someone was to hire a CRO, what do you think are some of the key things to look out for? Uh, let's say green flags and also red flags, uh, in your experience. So yeah, I'll throw it to you Paul for a first answer on that.
Speaker D: Yeah, I think primarily you want someone who's ideally you want someone who's done this before. So someone who's actually built that machine and has been through that process. That's ideally what you want. Uh, uh, especially you know, as we were talking about, if you're a founder, uh, who, who can't, who, who maybe you're a first time founder, uh, and can't give the direction or the mentorship that a CRO needs. I mean you can get that externally but ideally they've done it before and they know what to do and they've not just been say a salesperson and now they're kind of promoted. So ideally I'd say look, I, the CRO is someone who's been through this before and, and you hire someone who built some of that muscle. Um, going back to a point I raised earlier, one of the key things for me as a, as a CRO coming into a company is as I said, can they say no? Can this person say no? Can they say no to you? As a founder, can they say no to their team? Uh, so one of the most important things I think in terms of saying no to a founder is when a founder says hey, should we do this new cool thing that I think is amazing. And um, one of my bugbears is kicking up projects that don't have business cases because someone thinks it's a cool idea. Um, that's just one example. But saying no to the team, no, we're not going to do this deal, uh, it's a bad deal. I've Seen this happen before. Um, this never goes well. We shouldn't set up the deal like this. It's not going to be successful. So I think making sure that you have someone who is, is uh, prepared to push back and say no to both you as a founder or the team is key because a lot of the CRO role is really an internal role. I'd say ideally it's mostly an internal role. It really isn't an external role. You want a CRO to hire a great team who can take your solutions to market and work with you, the founders, uh, and not really necessarily be your chief salesperson. Um, yeah, so I think that'd probably be the two green flags that I, I mostly care about. Uh, red flags. Um, yeah, I mean I, I guess the uh, the opposite. Right. People, People who haven't done it before. I would, I would be very wary of those, uh, if, if you haven't done it before. I mean everyone deserves a first chance. But um, you know, it depends how, how experienced the, the CEO, uh, CFO are. Uh, because, because you can just spend a lot of time coaching someone if, if they haven't done this before.
Speaker C: Just to jump in there, when you say done this before, could that, could they. Without having the actual job title of CRO, um, that, that, you know, they could have had a variety of other job titles, but ultimately when you say done this, you mean built that team? Built that like revenue generating machine within the company?
Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, it could have been VP Revenue, uh, might be another title that they've had before. It might not be CRO, uh, but been through the, been through the process of either pre or post product market fit, started building the engine that actually scales the business. So ideally you work with someone who's been through that, that process before and not it's not their first time because it's likely a lot of things during that process will be new to them. And um, ideally you're hiring someone who has some experience, not just a skill set. I would say at this level. At this level, yeah.
Speaker C: Dan, is it?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Any flags?
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: So I'd say that the thing that you still see even though everyone kind of knows that this is a problem is you know, whoever your best salesperson is, uh, or the first person that came in isn't necessarily the right person to take this kind of CRO or similar role. You know, especially as you're trying to scale, uh, salespeople come in lots of varieties. Some are complete dogs. Right. They're just like out There every day, crushing stuff. Some are very like kind of thoughtful, consultative, um, you know, people, people, people, uh, if you will. Uh, there's all types of, of folks. Um, but just because you're good at sales, just because you've driven great numbers doesn't mean you should be running a sales team. And this mistake still gets made. I've seen it firsthand. Uh, you want someone in this role who uh, who can think strategically, you know, uh, horizontally, who can work with a CFO on forecasting and be good at analysis, uh, who can come up with a comp plan, who can think about overseas markets, right, and go meet and find the right people to help you figure out how to attack that. You know, these are strategic, high level things. Uh, it's not the same as closing a deal. And so that's kind of number one thing to kind of work against the bias of someone who's just brought in great numbers. In all the sales and biz dev roles I've ever had where I was a part of team, I've never been the top guy. You know, I'm not the best salesperson, there's no question. Uh, but in all those teams I've always been one of, if not the best people at, you know, working with other people, thinking strategically, doing analysis. I have a background, you know, my pre games life I worked in kind of strategy consulting. So I got really good at Excel, you know, and building uh, plans and three year strategies and stuff like that. And that's, I leverage that stuff all the time. And I think uh, when I'm working with our CEO and cfo, when I can be at that level and do analysis with them and redline legal documents with them and whatever it is, that kind of executive level stuff, that, that's, that's when I'm kind of stepping beyond what a typical person who's just worked in sales has done. And, and you need, you want someone like that, uh, that can sit at the table and have those really kind of high level conversations that, that can help move the business forward and not just go out and sell whatever was put in front of them.
Speaker C: Yeah, great. Um, yeah, thank, thanks for that. Uh, plenty of um, color in those conversations. I, I was, I was just thinking though that you've, you both have been in the games industry for a while. Um, but is there an argument to say that uh, if you've been a CRO in B2B tech, then you can build that revenue machine in any B2B SaaS company? Um, is that, is that a Fair argument or is actually you having uh, an entrenched understanding of the games industry in this sense? Um, I say in this sense as in like does industry knowledge give you a major advantage or not particularly. I imagine it would give you a lot of advantage in sales. You bring a network in. But both of you are saying like the CRO doesn't necessarily have to be the chief salesperson, they know how to build sales teams. So yeah. Does it give you an advantage or not? And should you look for it when you're hiring one as well?
Speaker B: Right, yeah, it's a great question. I think uh, games is a very specific, uh, kind of unique place. I mean it sits in the entertainment industry but uh, it's a whole nother world from movies or television or toys, uh, or whatever. So um, if you're looking to bring in a CRO, uh, into game, into a gaming company that's never worked in games, that's going to be a bit of a disadvantage because again because there's this finite market of top publishers that drives so much of the revenue, not having any network or any understanding of how those companies work is something you're going to have to overcome. Uh, whereas if you live in the world of say SaaS, uh, software for enterprise companies and you've been selling a CRM tool to Fortune 500 companies, you move over to legal software or accounting software or something like that, that's a little bit of an easier move because you got the same kind of customers. Maybe you're selling it at a different org, but it's the same process. Um, I think someone uh, coming out of games and going into a different industry is probably better than the reverse, um, because of the specificity of the games industry. Uh, but also I think scale matters or kind of uh, stage matters. So I wouldn't that confidently go out to a larger non game company and be like I'm the best CRO for you. Uh, whereas I confidently do that within games because uh, my experiences are so specific and my network is what it is and uh, so a lot of the value I brought is my network and my experience and my ability to price in this market and understand exactly how publishers are structured and all that kind of stuff. So um, I'd say there's a little less transferability than maybe other industries would be my conclusion.
Speaker D: Cool.
Speaker C: Uh, yeah. What do you think about that? Any advantages there?
Speaker D: No, I think Dan hit on some good points. I think um, again back to the kind of stage company, um, if it's early stage pre product market Fit, you really need to be getting fast signal back from the market on what's working and what's not. Um, uh, the CRO with the right network, as Dan said, can get you that uh, quickly, they can get you in the right rooms and get honest feedback on what's working, uh, faster than someone who doesn't necessarily have uh, that network. Um, I also think kind of one of the key things, uh, CRO needs to lead the company on is really understanding how the customer buys, um, why they're buying, why they're not buying, who influences the decision and um, really aligning internally on how long um, this deal cycle should take. And I think if you haven't had experience doing that, um, you're not going to be aligned internally and the CEO CFO are going to be frustrated because maybe deals aren't coming in as quickly as they can. So I think that level of experience is key and just managing expectations around who we should be speaking to, why they should be buying from us, how long this deal is going to take is pretty key. Um, and uh, if you're not listening to your CRO on those points, I think you're doing yourself a disservice as a CEO founder, uh, because I think that's one of the key insights that you should be bringing in. As we've discussed, they um, are not necessarily your chief salesperson. So you really need to lean on the experience that they have of doing this before in market, knowing where the opportunity lies, who, who buys, why they buy. Uh, and um, um, kind of alignment on how long that might take. I think it's, it's key.
Speaker C: Yeah. Okay, great. Um, and hey, we're, we're approach approaching quickly somewhat towards the, the end of the episode. So I was wondering, I bet there's going to be people listening to this that are aspiring to be CROs at some point in their career or perhaps it's like the next step they're looking to take, you know, upwards. So would there be any, any advice that you would give, uh, to someone who feels like that's their career ambition or perhaps a next step and I'll throw it out to either of you to jump in on that one.
Speaker D: I can go, I can go first. Um, one of the key things that I, I think is key and I, I think this is key for all executives is, is to learn how to write. Um, um, because especially in a scaling company, a global scaling company, we're using, you know, instant messaging, we're using Slack AppCharge, lives on WhatsApp uh, uh, hey everybody.
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Speaker D: you need to, you can't communicate everything you want in a meeting. You need to be able to learn to write and put your ideas down and communicate them well, uh, through writing that, you know, if it does in, in my opinion, if it doesn't exist in text, it doesn't really exist. Like because something you said two months ago that just, just doesn't, you know, people forget it. And so learning to write and build a coherent narrative that people, people, uh, coalesce around is pretty key for me. And AI is great for this. It can help you clear your thinking. Just one caveat here. I wouldn't only use AI to do that, but I do think making sure you are coherently making a point and learning to write your ideas out and making sure that they are well understood by your team is pretty key. Uh, the other thing that I think is pretty key is just the CRO is a very data measurement focus role. You need to be on the numbers all day, every day. And I think that's pretty key. And building your kind of success measurement data spine early is just key. That has to be kind of central to what you do every day. And if you don't have that, probably being a CRO is not, is not the right role for you. But having data, um, and driving towards defined success criteria, it is kind of key. And yeah, again, if you're not doing that, if that's not for you, then it's probably not the right role. There'd be two, two key points that I would, I would give there.
Speaker B: Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll piggyback on That I think uh, it's maybe not the expected answer that the, the these key things are like writing and you know, data. Right. For a sales job, uh, kind of thing. But uh, yeah, I think all the time about how fortunate I am to have had that background where I just got immersed in Excel and analysis. And uh, that plays a role. So often for me, anytime something gets complicated, uh, an uh, AE brings me a pricing problem or we're trying to figure out uh, what's the market opportunity in Korea or whatever it is my ability to dive into the numbers and move them around and think hard and write some formulas and that kind of thing. It really matters uh, because you know, if you want the hard answers to the hard questions, you uh, need to be able to think pretty hard about them. So I would advise anyone who's kind of spent their, especially their time in sales to spend time crunching numbers and uh, not just reading dashboards but putting things in Excel and playing around with them or Google sheets or whatever, uh, and get comfortable with analysis. Uh, that stuff is always going to be important for this kind of role. Um, the other thing I would think on the more the softer skill side is like uh, making sure you're listening. Uh, you know, and I think for me kind of my, you know, soft skills superpower has been empathy and collaboration. Right. So, or it has allowed me to be a good collaborative partner because once you get into this kind of CRO level, you know, working with the other teams around, uh, the org is really important. Right? Like if you're part of a leadership team and you're not getting along with and you're not building and collaborating well with the other teams, then, then you're going to have a really conflictual like difficult time in the company because you know, there's always going to be some conflict or whatever between teams. But you've got to be the one managing that and making sure it's productive, pushing back where you need to also. And so it's really, there's a people skills element to it that's not just you know, oh, sell, sell, hit the number, whatever. No, it's about like, you know, collaboration and listening. And that's true when you're working with your team, but it's also true, you know, as a lateral thing, uh, that one of the things I can never stand coming up uh, in my life has been kind of sales leaders and managers who are kind of do the thing where they're just like staring at the number, being like, hit this number, guys. We're not how do we hit this number before, before the month ends or whatever it is.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker B: And I've just always found that to be super counterproductive. I'm way more interested in spending time with my team and my partners around the company, listening and learning and doing and enacting strategies and knowing that if we execute on those things, well, those numbers will fall into place. Right. Staring at a number, yelling at it, and telling people to go jump higher doesn't really get you anywhere long term. Uh, we use a kind of a motto at Gamesite. Um, think in years, which, uh, is, you know, really applicable in lots of places. But particularly for me, it, it, it means a lot because it means I don't have to sit there and yell at the guys about this quarter's numbers. I'm trying to figure out how do we make sure we're. We're amazing two years from now and, and that this relationship we're working on is bearing fruit a year from now, not this quarter. So anyway, uh, yeah, to. So two. Two wildly different things here. Get good at data, but also, you know, uh, hone your empathy skills, uh, so that you can work well and, and think long term.
Speaker C: Brilliant. I love that. And also when you were, uh, saying hit that number. Flashbacks to the boiler room recruitment agencies where I started my, uh, my career. Trying to just constantly be the top of the bill. I'm sure the billing leaderboards. Yeah. Um, good times. Hey, uh, Dan and Paul, thank you so much. I have a last question that I ask everybody that comes on the Talent Game podcast. Um, considering that I love talking about talent related topics, uh, and that is, what is your favorite interview question? Um, especially as you. You've talked a lot today about building revenue generating teams. Quite a lot. So naturally, I'd imagine you've both done your fair share of interviewing and hiring, so. Yeah. Do you have a favorite interview question you can share?
Speaker B: Sure, I'll go ahead. Ah, so I, I wish I could remember who gave me this one. I'd like to credit them with it. Not mine, not my idea. But I do love this one, which is at the end of an interview, I will ask someone. Hey, look, no one's perfect, right? Uh, if I'm gonna, I'm gonna probably go talk to people who know you. You know, we're, uh, gonna back channel references. You're gonna send me references when I ask them. Hey, you know, Johnny, Johnny's. You know, no one's a 10 out of 10 on everything, right? What's. What's one spot where Johnny's not a 10, you know, and uh, and maybe how can I help him get closer to that number even if it's not never going to be a natural strength for that person. Right. What, what's, what's the chink in the armor? And it's interesting because it's, it's just another way of saying like, you know, what are your strengths and weaknesses? But it's just different enough that it gets people kind of disarmed a little bit and you get some really interesting answers. Some of them are hand wavy, you know, stuff. But other times someone will say something that disqualifies them from the job. Uh, other times you will get kind of that more human side of someone where they're opening up a little bit and they'll tell you like, you know, like, if you asked me that question, I would tell you I hate doing math in front of people. I will never go to a whiteboard. And like, uh, you know, I'm not great in a room with tons of people staring at me saying, go figure this thing out real quick and come up with your best idea. I'm like, uh, I need, I want time. I need time to do analysis and I'll come and present it to you. I'll be very confident. Right. Uh, but, you know, whatever it is, whatever your chink is, um, it gives people A, a chance to potentially disqualify themselves, which is useful. But also B, like, you learn like, okay, this is an area where I could help them or I could be aware when they come in that this is going to be a thing, you know, and it could be something big or something small. Uh, one thing related to this is like, I've hired enough people and no one, you know, 50% of the people you hire aren't going to work out for one reason or another. And the 50% that do, there's going to be some part of them that they're not quite what you thought they were. Hopefully there's some things that are even better that. But like, inevitably I always have this conversation with like our, you know, like just people around the company. Like, uh, once someone's started and it's a few months in and we figure out what their thing is that they're, uh, it's not great or whatever. We go, oh, it turns out they're human also. Right? It's like we figured out that they're human just like everyone else we've ever hired. They're not perfect. And that's the area we're going to Help them get better at or whatever. So uh, if anything you can do to kind of preview that and get ahead of it is an advantage. Uh, so anyway that's my.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, no I, I love that it's, it's a chance to. The best interview questions are always get to the heart of uh, are uh, there to get to the heart of people, um, tear down that facade of an interview. But yeah you're right like no one's perfect and the uh, interview process is just a data gathering exercise so that you can get the best out of them when they start as well. So um, yeah Paul, uh, what's uh, what's yours?
Speaker D: Yeah, um, I think mine would be uh, what do you believe about your role or your industry the most uh, smart or informed people would disagree with? Um, uh, a couple of reasons why I think, I think it's as you build a team. I think it's really. So we talked about kind of cross functional collaboration. I think that's important but I really want to have respectful contrarians in my org. So people who have evidence based reasoning for why they believe and they're prepared to say it because otherwise we all just agree and we all do the same thing. We all, you know, so going back to my point, we all, we all just start doing a thing even though we shouldn't be doing the thing which defocuses us. So for me one of the key things is uh, as I think about how we build a team is someone who um, can think contrarily. So they do have opposing opinions and they're willing to uh, verbalize those and they have evidence based reasons for why those uh, opinions exist. Um, because yeah as I said for me that's key and as we're making decisions internally that there are people like that who are questioning why should we do something or why shouldn't we do this thing. Um, so that for me is pretty key.
Speaker C: I think that's a great question that reflects the culture that you're trying to build as well.
Speaker D: Right?
Speaker C: You're very purposely trying to find.
Speaker D: I don't want yes people but I also want them to have good reasons for why they're saying no and um, um, to do that respectfully.
Speaker C: Yeah, brilliant. I haven't actually heard that one before. Dan. I was also thinking it reminds me of that your question is quite similar to one that Simon Sinek has uh, proposed previously. I almost like a riff on like what would your previous colleagues or managers say about you? Either way, I like both those questions because I think if you asked One as a candidate you suddenly stop and pause and actually have to think and all of those pre scripted answers that you have in your brain have to leave and go out the window for a second. So you can actually.
Speaker B: It's always the question that gets the longest pause before it's answered.
Speaker D: I think as we talked about. Also the nice thing about the games industry is although it's a huge industry it's also small so you can ask them that question and it's also highly likely as Dan said, that you can back channel to someone to actually get the real as well. Um, and um, in our industry the interviewees, they kind of know that as well. So that really does force them to be honest in that answer. Uh, because they probably know that you know someone that uh, has worked with them previously. And so it's, it feels rare that
Speaker B: I, yeah, sorry, I just say incredibly rare that I hire someone that I'm not connected to in some way, you know, that I can't find someone I know or someone I work with who knows someone who worked with them, you know.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Going back to our point about the industry advantage as well. Like you know, considering the games industry is twice the size of music and film combined, um, you get we were talking about Pocket Gamer in London before we hit record and like whenever I go there I just have to kind of like walk around the event ah, space and I will bump into multiple people that you know. Um, and so yeah it's uh, uh which is a gift and a curse because obviously if you build an exceptional reputation your career and your opportunities will snowball um, and be offered to you and vice versa. If you start damaging um, your own career and uh, companies uh, and teams that you touch then yeah, uh, then unfortunately you'll probably find if you keep doing that repeatedly you have to find a new industry to move into. So um, yeah so uh, yeah it can definitely use it to your advantage which is fantastic. Um, but hey we have hit time. Um so thank you so much Dan and Paul. I feel like anyone listening to this will have a really solid idea of what is a CRO, uh, you know, how to become one, how to hire one. Um, so yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to give your insight so thanks so much.
Speaker D: Yeah, it was fun.
Speaker B: Thanks Joe, thanks for having us.
Speaker C: Thanks. Uh, see you soon. Bye bye.
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Why B2B brands should be doing influencer marketing with Ishveen JollyThe Dave Gerhardt Show · on Influencer marketing83 / 100
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Samsung, Sculpted by Aimee & Barbour: AI, Data and Digital GrowthThe Retail Tea Break · on Influencer marketing78 / 100
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The Role of COO in Gaming: Viki Freeman (Airship Interactive) and Katya Dolgova (Redhill Games)60 / 100
HR Leadership in Gaming: Marina Jónsdóttir (Head of People at Starbreeze), Joseph Wilson (ex-VP People Experience at EA), Keith Caswell (ex-Hasbro, EA, Microsoft)73 / 100
Inside the Role of a Games CEO: Nuno Leiria (CEO, Nilo), John Wright (CEO, Turborilla), Kate Booth (CEO, Studio HEFT), Kim Soares (CEO, Social First)62 / 100
The CFO role in gaming: Ido Hochman (CFO, Avid Games) and Francesco La Deda (CFO, WA.Technology)78 / 100
The role of CTO in the games industry: Mark Allen (Avid Games), Terence Burns (Tanglewood Games) and Puli Liyanagama (Metica)