The Role of COO in Gaming: Viki Freeman (Airship Interactive) and Katya Dolgova (Redhill Games)

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Joe Burridge: Hello everyone and um, welcome back to the final episode of the season of the talent game podcast. This one is all about the role of the COO, Chief Operating Officer. And we got two fantastic COO's with me today and so let's dive in, uh, and meet them both. So Vicky, uh, I'd love to hear a quick introduction from you.

Vicki Freeman: Yeah, so I'm Vicki. I'm the COO of um, Airship, formerly known as Airship Interactive. We are an art end to end, uh, service provider, production studio. So anything from concept art all the way through to integration, cinematics, et cetera. Um, I've been there for years. This week as it goes feels like two minutes but also 10 years at the same time. Yeah, and I cover everything operational from the art team to through production, through IT and operations on a day to day basis.

Joe Burridge: Brilliant. And hey, congratulations on the work anniversary as well.

Vicki Freeman: Thanks. Yeah, it does creep up on me every year I must admit.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. Um, and over to you, Katya.

Katya Dolgova: Hello everyone. So I'm Katya. I am co founder and chief operating officer of Redfield Games. We started initially as the game development company and over time pivoted to, to a service provider to code dev. And at the end of the journey, which is now eight years or so, we were doing full cycle and uh, art related uh, projects. And for the moment we are thinking over the strategy what to do next.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, brilliant, thanks for that. And uh, yeah, it's funny to have like two coos of CodeV, uh, studios and you both, uh, your companies focus on PC console. Am I right in thinking that?

Vicki Freeman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Console, some mobile, Steam. Yeah, we do the whole shebang. Really? Some VR as well. We've been included in. Yeah, for those IPs too.

Joe Burridge: Cool. And uh, yeah, um, we'll definitely get into this. But before we hit the record button we were talking about how like the COO role can mean many different things at different companies. And even then, Vicky, in your short intro you were like, I do it and operations of these things. So yeah, looking, looking to dive into that variety in a bit. But, but before I do, the first question I ask everybody is what are you playing right now? So I'll go to Kasia first. Yeah. Kassia, what are you playing right now?

Katya Dolgova: Considering lack of time with the duties of coo, when you need to do pretty much everything to enable your developers to develop. Mostly I'm playing uh, New York Times games like before everything starts or at the end to wind down. My favorite game though is the Witcher 3. Uh, but that takes time. You need to sit down like put everything aside and just enjoy. Or you need a longer flight to play it on the Steam deck. Uh, then it works as well. But uh, on a day to day it's more like short mobile games to compete with people.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, great. Two great uh, answers there because I was just um, whilst eating my bowl of cereal this morning completing the midi, the, the new uh, crossword on the New York Times app. I'm, I'm someone who pays the dollar monthly subscription. I, I same thing. It's great. Little habit, the crossword and um, yeah, what's the other one? Challenge, Challenges, I can't remember. But the um, yeah, yeah, the cross

Katya Dolgova: play and uh, also pretty much you can compete in any of their games. And yes, along the time we had competitions in the company as well. Who can solve for Wardle for example, with less attempts.

Joe Burridge: Nice. Yeah. Oh, ah, yeah, cool. Uh, good answer. And also the Witcher. I don't know if you can. Yeah, I don't think you can see it off the side, but I do have like a good like Geralt statue just, just over there. That's also one of my all time faves. So. Yeah. Um, nice. How about you, Vicky? Anything you're playing at the moment?

Vicki Freeman: Yeah, so I go through fits and starts. Sometimes I have periods of time where I get really into an fp and then others, um, I don't play for a long time in between that. But I picked up the switch over Christmas break, um, downloaded a cozy game. It was a tiny bookshop. So you're a little bookshop keeper. You've got a little caravan type bookshop and you go around sort of this coastal town and sometimes you can pitch outside of the supermarket, um, or you can go to a lighthouse and you've got different customers. It's just so chill and that the seasons change and it teaches a lot about literature actually more than you would probably think. You go, oh, I remember reading that book. I remember reading that book and you have to give recommendations and you get tips and you can make coffee. It's just really sweet and it's just easy to pick up and put down. Like there's no milestones. You don't have to worry about timing or like narrative story. But I guess favourite games are probably couch co op games. I like collaborative playing. I'm not really into solo play unless it's something like that. I like the chaos of couch co ops as well.

Joe Burridge: Yeah.

Vicki Freeman: Like when you are kind of competing, like kind of battle royale sort of um, vibe. Yeah. Maybe because I deal with chaos every day. Kind of just.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, that's kind of what training.

Vicki Freeman: Yeah. What I play. But also really into kind of Wordle and so quick play things like that too.

Joe Burridge: Brilliant. I was just gonna say on that game, you said tiny Bookshop. Yeah. Um, me, I have three daughters and at the weekend we were scrolling through the on switch just like, I'm like, let's have a look at the current offers. And I swear that that one came up and that I think the artwork.

Vicki Freeman: Yeah, yeah. Beautiful game.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. I, it's funny, I tried to get them into like competitive multiplayer stuff. Even like Mario Kart and they're like. And you know, I, I, I load up Super Smash Brothers for them. Which is a fighting game. Right.

Vicki Freeman: Top game.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. And they'll, and they'll just um, and they'll just pretend that they're toys. They're like, oh, look, follow me and let's run and let's like they'll explore a level together. I'm like, that's so funny. I'm like, well that works. If they're playing games and having fun, I don't really care. Um, that's a good suggestion. Um, because I, I did see that and uh, maybe I'll go back onto it. Um, okay. Hey, so let's get into the uh, I guess the, the main part of the conversation today. So I think starting off um, I'd love to hear about like your take on what your role is. Like how you describe this COO position. Um, at your game studio or your co dev studio. Um. Yeah. Vicky, like how would you describe like what you do, um, day to day

Vicki Freeman: it's really hard to find like a set of words to describe exactly what a COO does because it does differ from industry to industry as well. Um, I think games, the COOs tend to be quite similar. You know, we wear multiple hats, we do multiple jobs. Um, and I would best describe myself probably as the strategic glue on a, on a day to day basis. So you know, in some studios they might have a head of studio who is a similar sort of subset of skills. But, but a general day to day for me would be looking after the production department and um, checking in on the health of all projects that we're working on. Where they're at, are there any struggles, are there any escalations that they need to work with me on? And the communication challenges with clients from an art perspective, again these are managed top down. So although I'm on the shop floor, I do have a head off that looks after those departments as well about the sort of pipelines that the artists are uh, working within, understanding the workflow challenges from client to client, skill gap analysis. You're constantly upskilling all of the artists to ensure your top deliverable products. Um, there's so many complexities with that. This is incredibly top level. So it sounds quite easy and straightforward but it is quite a smorgasbord of things that go on day to day. Um, and then IT and operations. So operations as a business, so not just from a development point of view, that can be anything from the softwares that we use, the agreements, um, the IT infrastructure, the policies and procedures. For us as like a global remote studio, all of the challenges that a global team presents, um, talent and HR all come under me as well. I guess the only sort of department that I don't really touch on a day to day basis is business development and marketing, though I am involved in those loosely those are headed up by our CEO. So you can imagine my day is quite ah, a wide mix of um, things. So at the moment we're working on all of the new HR policies that the government have introduced to the UK and we're having to refresh, rewrite and start from scratching a lot of those. Introducing those, we do um, a whole benefit survey at the start of the year and then renew the offerings based on what people actually want from their employer. We've just rolled out a full year flexibility pilot which has introduced four new ways of working across the company. Whether that's condensed working weeks, condensed fortnights, maximum flexibility, which is where you can come and go throughout the day without explanation as long as your milestones are met and um, various other things. So there's constantly something happening of which I'm overseeing designing, you know, or helping with the implementation plan. So I guess business transformation and anything big like that would always start and end with me and then day to day running. I think the most important thing is how I align with the CEO and his vision. I call myself the executioner in terms of I execute his ideas once we've honed and polished them to a way that, you know, will work for the business, um, long term. So sort of translating his vision into reality really. And then, you know, running the business, running the sort of shop floor on a day to day basis.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, great.

Vicki Freeman: Best way to explain it really.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. And I was thinking you were like, oh, I don't touch much on business development, but I know that you're just out at gdc, like helping to um, close. Close some business as well. Yeah, yeah.

Vicki Freeman: So working, um, and traveling. Yeah, as well.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. So. So really, uh, taken for that summary, there's. There really isn't any part of the business that you don't have some influence on, uh, with the aim to improve. Um, also.

Vicki Freeman: Yeah. You know, because of production and the way that we work and you know, how uh, you cost against, you know, the artists themselves. You know, we carefully look at margin every single month, burn rate, you know, how well a project is doing its health. So commercially I have to be very astute as well. So yeah, it's very hard to sort of explain it really without hours and hours of granular detail.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. Um, and also I like this idea of this nickname of the executioner, you coming along with an ax and a hood.

Vicki Freeman: But I mean I did have that nickname years ago, but for a very different reason. But now it's more of a I execute the ideology and the vision.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, yeah, yeah, There you go. Brilliant. So Katya, so anything to add to that? Because I'd imagine there's so much that is similar but um, hey, obviously you're in a different business, so. So what's your take on your role?

Katya Dolgova: So it is a little bit different. Definitely, definitely the same. That uh, CEO has to wear many hats and uh, every day might be very different from the previous and the next. The main difference I guess is that uh, because I'm also a co founder and I started initially from day one as CEO, having my other three co founders, one talking to investors and uh, being responsible for business development from day one, another one being everything tech. Right. Programming and everything it related. So I don't need to worry about that. And um, the last but not least uh, is executive producer background and therefore, like production and like planning and everything has been initially done by him. And as we started as the game development studio, also the role changed a little bit. So now as the codef, I'm doing nearly everything, uh, Vicky is doing. I'm more recently more involved.

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Katya Dolgova: into business development. Uh, partnering with our, uh, CEO. Some also like, he's kind of a hunter and always wor. And uh, I am more a farmer. So he hunts, you know, something. And then I need to make sure we can, you know, properly work with that and the client is happy and the work is delivered. And also like marketing, legal, tax payments, uh, all of that, whatever needs to be done has to be done. So I would rather summarize it as, um, as I mentioned already, enabling developers to develop so to make sure that studio operates well, like in terms of, uh, talents being available, being happy, being productive in terms of business working, then margins are, um, healthy and like the Runway is still there. And so you are not in troubles and also addressing concerns of the employees and the market as, um, we had to in the past few years.

Joe Burridge: Um, actually I would love to hear about your backgrounds, like how you got into this role. So yeah, with you, Kassia. So you founded Red Hill Games back in. Were you immediately into this, like, CEO role from, like day one, or is that something that evolved, uh, over time?

Katya Dolgova: Well, it was kind of from day one because when we looked at the complementing skills, skills each of us bring to the table, we thought that who can be the best and add the most value to development of the young studio a startup. So at first we Just invested our own money. You cannot really hire people and rent an office. You need to start building the idea before you go to investors or to anybody with something. So it's not just you know, our pretty faces and uh, good backgrounds. These days it's not enough at all but back in the time still you need to show something to people you are speaking to. We thought we. What's the best name for my role? Because it's literally everything which is not biz, dev, tech or game design really because that was what we were planning to do our own game. And the best description was um, operating officer. Right. So like all the other functions, all the other needs, whatever may come up would fall on my plate. And so over time of course we, we took more experts in but at first you have, if you don't know and don't have experience with for example go to market. You go read the book. Previously right now you open ChatGPT or something and uh, you ask people around. What helped quite a lot the previous background. So I have um, background in legal and human resources so I've been doing that in terms of industries, uh, I worked in fintech in IT and uh, lately in gaming and um, all of those like experiences and skills I gained over time. Time were very helpful in building the role and making sure I'm supporting my co founders and later on the team.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. And so before we go to you Vicky, I'd love to. So uh, that was great explanation of like your role in that founding there but I'm just fascinated about your history in that you've been like you said, so you're at Cisco as like an HR lead uh for a long time and other variety of um, non gaming companies. And then yeah you moved into uh, you're at war gaming for about three and a half years as head of HR and then you founded your own game studio. So, so what was that leap from? You hadn't worked in the games industry before then obviously gone to war gaming and then at some point you're like yeah, now I'm going to start my own game studio. So I'd love to hear like how has that leap and how has. I guess the follow up question would be how has all of that HR experience led to you being a, you know, a successful coo?

Katya Dolgova: First of all uh, going from it to gaming wasn't a huge leap. Although moving from the UK to Cyprus was. And uh, the main idea was uh, to combine experiences from um, ex Soviet countries and western world. Because war gaming originated from one of the ex Soviet Union countries but moved to Europe, moved like acquired several studios around the world. And um, uh, it was needed to make sure that the company is truly international. So all these um, backgrounds and legacy from CIS from Soviet Union is not there because the world uh, operates differently. And then meeting and working with the colleagues, uh, we thought we know better how to create, run a company and build games. And in order to prove it, you need to start it yourself. Right. Because otherwise you can tell people all about your experience, but if they think differently, you don't have proof to show that that was a success case. I did it myself. So that was one of the reasons we decided to start our own company. Having legal nhr backgrounds from the past from all these different countries helped a lot because obviously like four of us, we couldn't have developed a AAA game. And knowing how to put a team together, what skills and qualities are required on the, the regular employee floor or you know, the leads and uh, different expertises, ah, from whatever art to programming to design, um, to community. So did help a lot. And also knowing different cultures, how they operate together and what pitfalls you need to, you know, assume I'm going to, you know, face. That also was very helpful and um, it um, took me, you know, far with that.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, fantastic. And I only realized that now, uh, as you're talking about that, that not only are you both CEOs of CodeV Studios, you both also come from backgrounds in hr. So. So Vicky, but you didn't start out as the COO at Airship, so I'd love to hear your take on the answer of like all of your background in, in talent and hr. Um, like how did you get into the role of coo and how do you think your career experiences have like helped you like, you know, do this role now?

Vicki Freeman: Yeah, Um, I mean I never even wanted to work in recruitment and hr. Initially I wanted to be an architect. That was my dream. Went to university, the economy crashed so there were no jobs. Everything disappeared for me overnight. My dreams were crushed. I was always naturally creative and that was the. But quite anal about detail. And so the architecture sort of draftsman area of work was really appropriate for me. So I pivoted, you know, went and worked in recruitment. I ended up consulting. I did that for about 12 years. Um, all in all that period gave me a real commercial foundation, I think, understanding people, the situations that you can be presented with, but also business, how the problems that businesses face from a functionality point of view and how people are genuinely the strength behind every business. And uh, I just became fascinated with that, uh, how structures and organizations work and became more embedded and understood restructures and the commercialities and the realities of peaks and troughs struggle strategies, um, and just taught myself as much as I could in those years. Alongside that, um, I decided to retrain basically and I did a leadership and management degree and then I did a master's in hr because that gave me all the fundamental knowledge that it took to build a business from the ground up. Because you can't build it without individuals in it. So, you know, like Katya described, understanding the skills principles and the CAR needs. And after brief sabbatical of about six months, joined team 17 pre IPO and helped them build out some departments internally operationally, their recruitment, HR departments, operational processes, um, and that stretched out globally then because they acquired a lot of other studios and you know, there was lots of two pay activity and other operational changes. It's quite transformational. Probably the biggest challenge I'd face in my career today at that point. And then just leaned more into the strategy stuff when I, uh, left team 17 and moved into a head of HR and ops role in a VR company. And then I joined Airship four years ago as the Director of strategy, which was basically hearing Jo, um, about all his dreams and aspirations for the company, auditing the company, understanding with needed to change what was needed to build and building out roadmaps for the coming years and how what needed to transform, what needed to change, what we needed to omit, what we needed to integrate. And to be honest, I was invited into C suite way earlier than ever expected. Again, that wasn't my goal at that point either. I just wanted to be useful. And I really found growing businesses for Joe too. That means, I mean, it was before I'd even passed probation, so it was a big moment of trust for him as well. Yeah, I've been there ever since. So looking back, I don't think any of it was especially sort of linear. Um, it makes a lot of sense to me now when I look back at my whole career. It always feeding this kind of moment in time, um, just collected like a smorgasbord of experience. I guess that really leans into that sort of operational sort of lead. So I guess you're kind of, you're kind of like part operator, aren't you? Part strategist, part people lead, part problem solver. Um, people never fail to present you with problems. So that just keeps you on your toes. And I think just over time you just learn how to overcome pretty much any problem that you face. I feel like I'm best suited for companies that perhaps find themselves in that moment of reflection they got from A to B, but they don't quite know what C looks like or how to get there. I think that's where I probably fit in best.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. Great. And I think uh, it feels like the big advantage of coming from background in HR is that when you're dealing with one of those roles that handles all people in the company, you see every aspect of the company naturally. Uh, I guess it's similar to like how finance is just across the entire company is. Right, uh, as well.

Katya Dolgova: Right.

Joe Burridge: Um, so, um, yeah, so. And also you've just all of this experience organizing and getting the best out of people and then you know, translates quite nicely into like then getting the best out of the business. Which. Yeah. So that's. Ah, sorry, I was, I was there trying to just summarize everything that you've both said in into about 30 seconds. But it's really cool. Vicky, how would you, how would you describe like success in this role then? Is there any like one key metric that you just look at to be like, okay, that that means I'm successful or is it just a wide variety of things? Is it more qualitative and loose or do you try and quantify it?

Vicki Freeman: Yeah, I guess it. I guess at asic we're always trying to evaluate what success means for us because it's not always about revenue or profit. You know, sometimes it's about reputation, it's about reach, it's about scope, it's about the success of the games that we worked on in their whole totality. Are they award winning games? Are they the most visually acclaimed games? So I think from a creative standpoint success means many things. I think from a commercial standpoint, success means many things. I don't think there is one real true answer to that. We're still standing, which I think is representative of all of the hard work and toil that goes on in the background when an industry is really suffering with its identity and its future. And we don't over pivot, we don't over change who we are or what we are. I feel like we adapt and evolve, which is really important. You've got to understand who you are as a business and change accordingly to what the market is demanding. But without kind of selling your soul I guess, or completely changing who you are because it removes all of that legacy effort I think that you've made over the years. And we've been going for 15 years. I'm only part uh, I'm only four years into that story and that history. Hopefully it's future. Uh, but how we look at it year on year is okay. What is the market tangles like, how can we adapt and evolve to that? So I think in a smaller company you are in the detail constantly and you're closer to the when you're a

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Vicki Freeman: So decisions are much faster and you carry a lot more personal risk because there's no buffer. Ah, it's you against the market, there's no investors. Like we're completely independent. And I think in a larger, more mature company it becomes more about that alignment, you know, communication, influencing I guess without always having direct control, you know, it gives like specifically as we all know, the unpredictable is just an absolute constant. Like you're dealing with a lot of creative work, you're shifting client expectations. Especially if you're in the work of higher space like us, you know, your creative control is taken away because you're working for them in effect. And I suppose an industry that can swing quite aggressively, you just can't be complacent. And I think as long as you don't get comfortable in your space, you don't take it for granted, you will always be successful because you're working for it. So I think there's you know, something quite unique about you know, planning hard and adapting. Yeah, when you're constantly balancing that creative and commercial reality, it can be a lot um, to always maintain a level of like success, whatever that that means. But if I was an outsider and I'd never heard of Airship before and I looked into them and the people that worked for them. People are really well respected in the industry. I'm always welcomed into rooms regardless of my gender as well, which I find really refreshing. People um, come for repeat business. We get new business as well, you know. So I think that reputational value for me is probably the most success where the most success is represented. Jo might say a different thing, you know, heads of department might say another. But most people I would say are proud to work there as well. Yeah, I think it's hard to quantify success really and just a one dimensional way.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, no, I like that. And uh, obviously you're thinking about the long term success of the business. Right. If you deliver quality work, you have a really high reputation, the culture is efficient and working well and a great place to work. Then you know, you look after all of these things and then money, money does come in. So I uh, quite like that. Also your point about being adaptable but not, well, pivoting too much. Yeah, I, the amount of times I've seen companies pivot themselves into, into death ultimately because they're just constantly just flopping.

Vicki Freeman: Yeah, it is a death spiral, sadly. Yeah. Because they have no experience in the space and that they do it quickly without much strategizing or forward planning. Um, find you've kind of lost who you are at that point and it's hard to go back because that looks indecisive and people lose trust. Um, so not reinventing the wheel every time there's a hard moment I think is really important. Yes. Evaluate what people are wanting and needing and I wish the gamers industry would do that more with the players, um, and make things that they actually want to play. Um, but you know, from a running a business point of view. Yeah, success is hard to quantify and uh, you know, in one answer because it's, you know, it's quite ambiguous, isn't it? It's, yeah, very subjective as well. But yeah, I would say, you know, reputational value holds everything together because people know who you are for good reasons and um, will always come back. Culture, when you run a remote studio, it's incredibly hard to maintain. But we try our best. I think that's probably one of our biggest, not struggles but hurdles, you know, culture drivers. I think when you're a company that's global as well and you're all disbanded everywhere and you are fully remote. I've never been, I've never been a fan of fast, fun So I don't feel like a company is responsible for its culture, you know, in its totality. You can give tools and resources and listen, but really the people are the ones that build the culture. I think there's a real misunderstanding there sometimes between employees and the employer about who's responsible for what. Yeah, I think that's probably the hardest area really to try and get true success.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, I'm with you. I've been working remotely for six years now, funny enough, since March 2020. Yeah, can attest to that. Yeah, yeah, it is hard because you know, it's nice when you're like we're on screen together now like talking as soon as this all turns off. Oh, there's no, no one here. But hey Katya, um, I'd love to hear like um, how would you define, how do you define success in your role? Again, might be some similarities to what Vicky was saying, or perhaps not. Do you have a different take on that?

Katya Dolgova: Mhm. Absolutely agree with what Vicky said. I can only add that success in the CEO role also means on the stage of the company. So when you are at the very beginning then you know your growth, your ability to attract talent to a no name company and uh, then started delivering and meeting your milestones or like you know, getting a successful project to work on, that's that success. When you're already a mature company, then you know, keeping the culture intact or like evolve it and make sure that um, employees are like happy and supportive and productive uh, and whatnot. And your reputation is um, like you know, enhancing and growing and becoming better and better each day when you already need to you know, do something radically different. Even closing your studio or doing massive layoffs as we see in many cases you would be the last to turn off the lights. And that means that also like every process need to be done professionally and uh, that will be success as well. Finishing something is uh, like in a professional and grace, graceful uh way is um, as important as starting something because that also adds on to the legacy of the company, of the company culture, of every person who worked in the studio previously. And that allows you to rebuild either on the same grounds or start something new so you take it to the next place.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, I like, I like that thought as well. I think about like the, the legacy of the company and just executing professionally too. So, so appreciate that. And also you know, I asked the question, oh, uh, can you, do you quantify or is it more qualified feedback on the success of your role knowing that if you're responsible for the wide variety of the business. Um, that is probably sounds a bit more like whack a mole, right? Like, it's like, oh great, this department is running really well if there's a fire over here and you just um, constantly on the move. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. Hey, I was, I was curious though, so about potentially hiring or any advice you'd have for someone or a company wanting to add a coo. So interestingly, the most recent COO I've placed into our investment, uh, portfolio actually came from a background in production and their, and their role was much more about like, I guess more similar to like a VP of production, head of production or something. And then like business case was business operations was secondary in the skillset. So quite different I guess from the backgrounds that you come from. And then I know of someone else, uh, that again has gone into COO through finance or through business development. There's just so many varieties. So I guess the key thing is, is if a company doesn't have one yet, what, what telltale signs would you say to be like, hey, you need a coo or you least need someone owning this, the operations side. And then follow up would be, well, what advice would you have for them in terms of like what good looks like or, or the typ. Personality or person that you think could be successful in that. So Katya, what do you think? Uh, what do you think? I guess the first point was like at what point do you think a company should need a coo? Considering you said you were there from day one, I'd love to hear your thoughts there.

Katya Dolgova: Well, you know, it's probably obvious question. It depends really on uh, what, what company does and what aiming for and so what are other skills which are available and in case a company, which I assume is not a startup with uh, no name and no nothing wants to hire a CEO or my first question to them, like to SEO or to um, board would be why? Right, why do you think you need one? Which problems you want to solve with this exposition? Because as you mentioned yourself, the composition of the responsibilities and remit can be very different. And sometimes something financial is missing and then it's the main angle. Sometimes production is suffering. And you may think that CEO may solve that in a starting company. I uh, would uh, say that probably some HR background is helpful. Not necessarily a person who worked in HR previously, you know, all the time, but somebody who had deal with people and therefore like they understand the need, the skills, uh, the composition of a successful team and things like that. That also helps Building the pipelines and uh, production schedules and making sure that your team can deliver in case, like in Vicky's case, strategy was a missing part. Right. And so all over time, very quickly it became obvious that um, like strategy is not just talking about it. Right. It's executing as well and where you can better, uh, contribute to make sure strategy is complemented with the good tactics. So this is where strategy officer suddenly becomes the chief operating officer. Because it's not only giving the ideas, but also making sure they are, um, executed. So from that perspective, again, going back, like, why do you need it, which problem you want to solve, and then based on that, decide what are the best or most helpful backgrounds the person would be coming with. That would be my take.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. I was also thinking about when I discussed COO hiring with founders in our investment portfolio. I think a common theme, regardless of the person they hire, tends to be that they're complimentary to the C CEO. And I was just thinking about. Vicky had mentioned in one of her, uh, summaries previously in this conversation about, about that as well. Um, like the example I just gave recently of the COO that I hired recently.

Vicki Freeman: The.

Joe Burridge: Sorry, the CEO that I hired recently. The, the CEO was really struggling to handle all of the other business operations side because he was focused on money in the bank from investors and revenue and also making sure like the talent, there's talent in the company. So they really need someone to like, take over that piece. So yeah, yeah, Vicky, it was, it was that, uh, like with that anecdote about you being the right hand person to the uh, CEO, do you. Is that the case? And also what's your thought about when would be a good time to hire a coo?

Vicki Freeman: A difficult one because there's any right or wrong answer to this. It's very dependent on the CEO, I think. I wouldn't hire a CEO because the company's growing. I'd hire one because growth is starting to break stuff. Um, I think some of the signals are pretty obvious if you're quite honest about them. Usually the signs are, ah, the CEOs stuck in the weeds like you've just described. Can't focus on all the operational stuff and um, sort of stay focused on direction as well. Um, decisions end up getting bottlenecked at the top. Execution is inconsistent with all good intent. A CEO is only capable of doing so many things at once. So some things might start flying and some things might get benched and forgotten about and they're equally important, you know, um, so I feel like if the business is solving the same problems repeatedly instead of structurally fixing them, then that's probably the signs. I think hiring too early or too late is a risk. And I think you have to really know that moment in time when as a CEO, uh, it's time to have somebody more than just a board advisor, you know, helping you once a month or whatever. And then when you go to market, I don't think there's a singular correct background either. I think there's just certain patterns that tend to work better. You know, consulting backgrounds are quite common because they're built around a more structured thinking, problem solving, the ability to operate in very vague, ambiguous, um, situations, indecisive CEO, those sorts of things. I think the risk can stay a little bit too theoretical if they haven't really owned any outcome.

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Vicki Freeman: Which is why working in Epsop consulting strategy space first I felt was really important for me. But fellow cos that I know often come from very similar backgrounds, actually. Very white collar, very hre, very financy strategy, um, because they've experienced things beyond their lane. So I think that they understand things outside of their little system. They understand the whole functions behind like how a business runs because HR touches everything. You know, production or project management is great because it's all about planning outcomes, you know, things that could go wrong. There's lots of kind of, you know, forward planning there, um, and building workflows. I feel, you know, if you've been in a situation where you've owned outcomes and you've not just contributed, you'd be brilliant. I think if you worked across multiple functions, you'd be brilliant. Having difficult conversations. Um, you can't really be precious if your idea or your suggestion isn't, um, the one that you go with. I've worked with so many CEOs where I've told them risks or dangers and they've not taken advice and it's, I'm terribly wrong. You can't go, I told you so. You know, at the end you've kind of got to swallow that and go, well, I did suggest an alternative solution or an alternative pathway, you know, and we went with yours. I'm not here to argue, I'm just here to advise. As long as you don't work, uh, with friction. I think you're quite resilient, thick skinned, good in a crisis, then I think you would probably operate well in a COO space, not attempt just to fix the issue, but look at why the issue exists in the first place. So, yeah, it's about putting the fire out but then identifying how the fire became one in the first place. So you kind of like a walking fire extinguisher?

Joe Burridge: Yeah, yeah, I like that. Executioner and extinguisher at the same time. Yeah. So, hey, uh, we're coming up to close on the end of the podcast episode here. Before I go to my classic final question. Is there anything that either of you two wanted to mention about your role, um, as a CEO or anything that we hadn't managed to get to today that you're keen to voice worries? If not, I just want to make sure we covered everything.

Vicki Freeman: No, let me look at my notes actually. Let me open them and see what I'd wrote and followed what I wrote initially because I've just been talking about it. There was a couple of areas actually, like advice for aspiring leaders and, um, I wrote some bits on m. Stuff we don't talk enough about. So there's a couple of areas like that that they were just like garbled notes just in case it went down any of those routes.

Joe Burridge: But no, that's a good point actually. I, I, I, I think I almost forgot to ask, um, about like, if someone wanted to aspire to be a CEO because obviously, like, we've touched on it like in roundabout ways, as in we've talked about how you two became like into your roles and what success looks like. But you know, if, if anyone, if you spoke to someone, say, yeah, early mid or even senior, and they're like, my goal is to be a CEO, what would you respond in that, in that?

Vicki Freeman: Uh, for myself it was starting earlier than you think you need to. I mean, I am only 40 and I feel quite privileged to be in a position like this. But I just stayed curious. So it wasn't just about learning my own discipline, but everybody else's around me. You know, how they all kind of touched and, um, linked and, um, how. So I've just understood the DNA for within a business, really. How the money flows, how the decisions are made, and kind of what really drives growth. Are you a product? Are you a service? And then what is your market? Understand, like that success chain, I suppose. What keeps your business open? I probably always thrived more when things are a bit vague because I'm nosy. So I like going snooping around and auditing and finding out, you know, things that people swept under the carpet. So, yeah, just be. Be comfortable with that, uh, sort of ambiguity. There's no point in, you know, when you suddenly feel ready for leadership. You know, there isn't ever a point like that. Ah, you kind of just fall into these positions. I've found. Invest in your communication was one of the biggest tips I ever had from a manager of my own. And I went and did, uh, neuro linguistics, um, which is a way of talking and communicating, I suppose, with people in tricky situations, getting the most out of others. Um, you know, being able to say things like calmly at the right time with highest leverage, all those sorts of things. Because sometimes you can be in a boardroom, but m. Sometimes you can be in a disciplinary. Sometimes you can be just in a casual chat with an employee who's going through a really tough time. You've got to switch on all these different sort of, you know, um, sort of versions of yourself. But I think one misconception about leadership is that you always have the answers and you absolutely do not. I don't think it's about, you know, stabs in the dark. So we've still got to do those as well. But I think you just have to be willing to make certain calls, take certain risks, own them, own, uh, it when things go wrong as well, you know, go, my bad. Like, we tried and failed at that. And it's that being okay. I don't think there's any real time when you go, I'm ready, like, I'm ready to take on like, a C suite role. They kind of just come out of the blue for most people. I think, um, I never aspired to be a C suite. I don't know about you, Katya. I'd love to own my own company. One Day. But I enjoy the space that I'm in at the moment. So just learn, learn, absorb, absorb. Get stuff wrong, I think. And learn by, you know, doing, I think is the only, really advice if you're aspiring to get into. Into the C suite.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. Katya, anything to add there?

Katya Dolgova: Um, few things. Absolutely agree with what Vicky said. That, uh, all makes perfect sense. Maybe first to think, um, if what drives you to want to be in a C suite course. Uh, first of all, you know, growing your career, progressing and everything doesn't necessarily mean you need to become a C, um, executive because that brings also very different responsibilities. And um, also you need to think that, uh, up there it could be very lonely. And when things go well, then it's all because of the team. Right. And you need to be comfortable with that. So it's not your achievements, but that's achievement of your team. But when things go wrong, then you are one of the responsible people. And as Vicky said, you need to admit it and you need to own the responsibilities and, uh, try to turn things around.

Joe Burridge: Cut out of it. This is the, this is where you

Katya Dolgova: think you're comfortable with that. You like leading.

Joe Burridge: Katya, sorry we lost you there. We lost you there for a little bit. Would you mind.

Katya Dolgova: Since then.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, yeah. Would you mind just repeating that, um, onto that. It's all right. We're going to edit it out. It'd be great.

Katya Dolgova: So don't worry, like from the very beginning.

Joe Burridge: Uh, yeah, yeah, that.

Vicki Freeman: From the lonely bit, I got to. I feel that was the bit for me.

Joe Burridge: M. Yeah. Okay.

Katya Dolgova: All right. So, like, adding to what Ricky said, uh, is important to understand what drives you to want to become a C level executive. And uh, that requires also, like conscious thinking what success for you personally means. Because you can grow your career differently. You can become best in class, technical artist. And it doesn't mean that you take the whole responsibilities for the company, but you are still compensated well. You are well respected, everybody listens to your opinion. And, um, I think one of the most important things, which I rarely talked about that in the C level it's very often very lonely. And you are responsible for failures mainly. And success is because of your team. And you need to be comfortable with that. So you cannot. Well, you can of course, but, uh, like, you know, bragging about your achievements, but you didn't do it yourself. Right. You know, that's your team whom you put together, assembled and supported, but it's their win. But if something goes wrong, you take responsibilities and admitting it is mistake. And then you know, taking the extinguisher, you know, putting down the fire and making sure it doesn't happen again, correcting the, the issues and uh, making sure that uh, the company goes forward differently. So from that perspective, not only coo, but, uh, pretty much any C level, um, role would require very conscious understanding that uh, that's exactly what you want. Because also you do not really 100% belong to yourself anymore. And uh, people look up at you and um, you know, investors look up and partners look up. And um, that's also. You are in the spotlight. And again, if you are uncomfortable, you can train yourself to go out of the comfort zone. But better you are not struggling with that because then it's a day to day struggle.

Joe Burridge: Great. And yeah, thank. Yeah. And imagine heightened even more so in a remote or distributed company where if you've, you know, if you've got that person, if you've got your, the C suite right behind you, like in the same room or the same building as you, but if you're just on your own in your house, I'd imagine that's heightened even more. So.

Katya Dolgova: Virtual hugs.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. Yeah, brilliant. Um, um, thanks so much you two. And yeah, we are, we are about to hit time now. So I guess, um, my last question for both of you, and I have asked this to everybody that has ever been on this podcast, is what is your favorite interview question? Do either of you two want to answer that first?

Katya Dolgova: Yeah. Um, well, I think the good one was what actually COO is and what COO does because it is so diverse and different everywhere with one question. We managed to cover so much, Right. With backgrounds, with day to day, with responsibilities and all of that. So I think that was a good question for this talk.

Joe Burridge: Yeah. Okay, nice. How about you, Vicky? Have you got a favorite?

Vicki Freeman: No.

Joe Burridge: Uh, uh, m. Yeah. And also, like, also how, I guess vulnerable they're willing to be because, you know, if someone asks, what's your biggest failure? You could just give them a, a, a failure that ends up wrapped up quite nicely and they look good. It's like if someone's like, okay, this is going to make me potentially look horrendous on this call, but I'm going to just tell you anyway. I kind of like those stories. Yeah. And so I don't, I don't want to leave. On the cliffhanger, you were like, I'll explain the psychology of that ask you what animal you are question at some other point in time. Are you able to summarize very briefly and also what animal were You, I'd love to know.

Katya Dolgova: Yeah, yeah, Joe, who you would be.

Joe Burridge: But what type of animal would I be? Yeah, you know, the one that came to mind first was a fox. And that's because I lived in London for. Yeah, yeah, I know. Well, thing is with foxes, right, they're, they're very often misunderstood, so they mate for life. So I don't know. I've been with my wife since I was like 19, so I was like, there's, there's one. Oh, uh, yeah, there you go. And, uh, and, and they, the males often like going out and just scrounging and anything that they can for their kids and their partner back in their den. And I'm like, yeah, I can relate to that. And also they eat anything foxes. So I can also relate to that as well. So. And um, yeah, they're. Yeah, yeah, they're very cute, but they can fight if they're backed into a corner. So again, I can, I can relate to that too. So that would be my, that would be my answer. But mostly because whenever I saw a fox in London, I'd always just think they're super cute. So there you go.

Katya Dolgova: Um, especially when they're red. Yeah, like, you know, ginger.

Joe Burridge: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, and on that rather lovely bombshell, uh, I'll, uh, just want to thank you both. It was a really fun conversation, fun way to wrap up, uh, the season as well. So thank you and hopefully I'll see you both at some point in person soon. So thanks very much.

Katya Dolgova: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

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