"Leadership isn't the Castle, it's the Culture You Build Inside it"

Speaker A: Hey, y'. All. Welcome to the Mindset to Learn podcast. In this season, I'm diving into the future of leadership. And in this episode, I'm talking with Gray McDowell. He's consulting manager and he's the author of the new book Cross Crafting the Corporate Camelot. From High Stakes Decision Making to Building Psychologically Safe Teams, Ray brings us a bold and refreshingly human perspective to leadership. In this episode, he shares powerful stories, some real world frameworks, and some actionable insights that'll help all of us lead with more clarity and courage. Hey, Gray, thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Speaker B: Thanks, Joanna. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker A: So, before we get started in talking about everything about leadership and challenges and your new book, first give the listeners a little bit of a chance to get to know you a bit better.

Speaker B: Sure. So, as you know, I am currently a consulting manager with Capgemini Invent. Capgemini is a French based global IT management consulting firm. I specialize in primarily in change management, but really emphasizing workforce and organizational transformation. I've been doing this type of external consulting work for a little more than five years and prior to that I was in industry, HR and od.

Speaker A: Wow. Do you think there was like a moment in your career that reshaped how you started to think about leadership?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me and a lot of people, you know good leadership when you see it are more times than not when it's absent. I think from an early age I recognized a, uh, stark contrast between leadership or good management and supervision or authority. I was the kid in school that always seemed to have a problem with authority. I can say that I'm probably one of the few people that you'll ever meet that within a four year time span was politely excused from both military school and all boys, Catholic school and the military. So clearly I'm the kind of person that needs to be inspired to do my best work. Now, thankfully, as I've grown older, I've grown wiser and much more civilized in the way that I deal with workplaces or environments that are maybe not toxic but just aren't my best fit. I think we all have to make that evolution as we grow up and grow older. But yeah, I think that for me and a lot of people, it's being inspired. It's feeling like a person is there to lead you, to help you, to coach you as much as they are to get a job done.

Speaker A: Well, we're gonna have to talk about some of those other experiences another time.

Speaker B: Honorable discharge. Honorable discharge, I promise. But yeah, it was. I definitely was a late bloomer in terms of maturity and growing into my, my future self.

Speaker A: Well, I'm glad you finally made it there.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: From a teacher or a prior teacher,

Speaker B: there's hope for everybody. If I was able to make it, I think many, maybe not most, but many people can as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And like I was going to say from the perspective of a teacher, I have seen many, many kids who through their middle school and high school years had some trouble with authority, but it was only because they were so passionate about the things that they knew were right or wrong or things that they could see from their perspective that it didn't jive with what they were being told to do. And uh, so they were not afraid to speak up about it. And that's not a bad characteristic to have as an adult. Right? Only when you're in like an institution that makes you conform. And some of us, we don't want to conform. Okay, so we're going to jump into some of the questions now. We're really going to talk about leaders kind of at every level, like from frontline supervisors maybe to even to the C suite. So I'm curious, what do you think makes a truly great leader?

Speaker B: Ah, I think for me personally great leadership is somebody that is comfortable in their own skin. I think a lot of times bad leadership, and I definitely want to come back to the distinction between leadership and management. But bad leadership is often you're overcompensating. You think you should act a certain way, behave a certain way based on who you've modeled your leadership Persona on. Maybe you've had some bad coaches, mentors, models in the past, influences that weren't exactly ideal but you thought were inspirational or you thought were the ideal. Obviously we all, well, most of us have to overcome imposter syndrome. And I think when you're in a leadership position, you're so focused on yourself, you're so self conscious, you're so worried about saying the right thing, doing the right thing, believing that, mhm, inspiration comes from um, being right, winning. Especially in our culture, especially in these times, that can send the wrong message and actually hurt you and harm your legitimacy. If people find you unapproachable, they're going to be less willing to engage you and build that leadership partnership. They're not going to allow themselves to be led, they'll be supervised. Right. They want to keep their job and maybe they think, well, you're not long for this role for this position anyway, so let me just stick it out and maybe the next person, the next manager will do a better job. But you may not get that until it's too late, until you, you start to suffer from turnover, attrition on your team, or if you're getting a lot of poor performance, a lot of negative feedback from your superior. So I think good leadership is having the wherewithal, having the self awareness, the emotional intelligence, understanding that you will never know everything. But that's not the point. The point is that in your role as a leader, have to help people achieve their greatness. And that's ultimately what inspired me to write my book, is helping people to understand that there's never this ideal of uh, the perfect leader. It's a journey. And part of the journey is making sure every step along the way you're doing your best and you're giving your best.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know what I hear you saying is a good leader knows they're in a leadership position and they're trying to do the best for the people that they're overseeing. And it uh, keeps it people oriented. Otherwise you could be in that position and if you ignore the people that you're supporting or you don't give them the support that they need so that they can be successful, then that puts you in that other bucket where you're really not a great leader.

Speaker B: And that's a distinction between leadership and management. Um, you can be a practical subject matter expert, you can be an expert in a particular field, you may be a great surgeon, a great physician, but you're not a caregiver unless you can tie that, that technical competence to the soft skills, being able to connect, to empathize, having that, that level of patient, giving that patient experience. And if you only want to perfect the science, uh, the technical side management, great, that's half the equation. And a lot of managers don't have good management sense, business acumen, our leadership, but to really become whole, well rounded, those inspirational leaders that we read about, that we watch on YouTube, you have to be able to bridge both sides. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, I haven't read your book yet, but from our previous conversations, one of the things that you talk about in your book is supporting leaders in like high stake moments when everything's on the line. Right. So let's think about what separates those leaders who rise to that occasion, but separates them from those that unravel under that pressure. What do those that rise up do differently in those moments?

Speaker B: Yeah, pressure doesn't make diamonds. Leadership. It, what it does is it reveals whether you are pretending to be one in the first place. Okay. So in my book, to your point, I do draw heavily on the authority and lens because those stories, like today's workplaces, are filled with those who thrive under pressure and those who crack under the crown. And really the difference between, between usually comes down to three traits, I think. Clarity, composure, encourage. Okay, so let's start with clarity. Okay. Clarity, the ability to return to your core values and your organizational purpose when everything else gets noisy. So if you Remember back to 2023 when Silicon Valley bank collapsed, the companies that reacted calmly and and transparently, like the expense management software firm Brex or Ricklining, I think they do workforce management. They quickly stabilized. They communicated early and clearly with both their customers and their employees. And they outlined what they knew, but also what they didn't. And it's that kind of clarity that uh, we may not control the storm, but we control how we steer. That I think is really important. Okay, then there's composure, which I've got to say is often mistaken for silence or detachment. But real composure is presence. It's how leaders project stability when everyone else is spiraling. And this is really fun talking about this topic because she has announced, ah, a documentary that she's coming out with. But if you think of New Zealand's former Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and how she handled her country's response to the COVID 19 pandemic, she combined both a lot of evidence based decision with empathetic, transparent communication that, you know, she wanted to reassure a very anxious public. Now her messages weren't flashy. If you've ever watched her talk on the news or on, on YouTube, you notice that she's kind of no flop. She'll just kind of come at you. Very authentic. Which again is another theme in the book, authentic leadership. But the message was calm, it was human, it was honest. She did a great job of not just holding the line, but she inspired others to stand with her. I can't wait to see that documentary, by the way. She's somebody that I actually call out and talk about quite a bit as a case study, positive case study in my book. And so the third one is courage. Oh yeah. And it's not like the Hollywood kind where you're yelling into the wind, but it's quieter, it's grittier. It's the kind of courage to hold crucial conversations, to admit mistakes, but also to protect your people when it's inconvenient. So we saw this during a lot of the racial justice uprisings in the 2000s. Some executives went dark. But, uh, others, like Yvon Chouinard at Patagonia, I think dan Schulman at PayPal was another really good example. These folks leaned in, they took stances, they risked criticism, and they didn't just send out email. So it was clear that these individuals, these organizations, it wasn't about virtual signal, it wasn't about following the trend, trying to maximize the, uh, perception of brand value. But they backed it up with policy and investment. And that's what real courage looks like when it's implied. And let's be clear, okay? The leaders who unravel under pressure usually have one thing in common. They confuse control with leadership. They clamp down, they hoard information, they micromanage. I know this is sounding familiar. And they blame others. So that might work for a quarter, but it's not going to work for a culture. Okay? Leaders who rise to the occasion, treatment pressure like a crucible, not a crisis. They don't hope for it, they don't look for it. So they're not chaos agents. But they ask better questions, they're ready for it, they lean into discomfort. Perhaps most importantly, they remember that people don't follow charisma in the tough times. They follow character, especially in today's environment. Charisma will only get you so far. But it's that character, something that I find to be, and maybe it's always been missing with the majority of leaders in business and politics, and it's just much more noticeable now because it just seems lacking on every level. But that's what makes the leader rise.

Speaker A: What you said about courage made me go, aha. Uh-huh. In everyday life, whether we're working with a leader, we're working with a coworker, we're working with someone in our own personal relationship. A lot of times when somebody is not showing that courage to stand up for what's right or the way to lead in that manner, I think it has to do with some of their underlying insecurities. And so they find themselves not feeling that confidence, and that makes them feel insecure. So they find other ways to direct that control towards other people. And it's not always in the most

Speaker B: productive manner that aligns what we talked about before. We were talking about what makes a good leader or what doesn't make a good leader. It's the authenticity. It's. It's knowing who you are and, and the understanding, the relevant revelation that you're never going to be perfect, that it's just you're constantly, um, self improving. You're you're going on a journey of self awareness, you stay curious, you stay humble, you have a thirst for learning. And along the way you're helping others find their path. And it may not be what we think it should be or what our ideals are, but that's what it looks like in practice, at least for me.

Speaker A: Mhm. No, that's really good insight into that. Okay, so we covered the leader's ability to navigate through pressure, but they're leading a team. And we know our teams are made up of all different types of people. In my experience working with different colleagues in different situations, I know that sometimes we have a rotten apple. But I also know that the leader can cultivate a culture that can be safe for everyone. That leader has developed trust not only between themselves and the people that they're leading or supporting, but also there's trust that they've developed between the co workers. Let's talk about a little bit about what happens beneath the surface in that kind of situation. What are some early red flags, maybe that a leader should look for in team dynamics? Sometimes a dysfunction creeps in quietly. Right, here it comes. What sign should the leaders be paying attention to?

Speaker B: Yeah, so in my book, I talk a lot about how great leaders don't just lead strategy. They sense shifts in culture and team chemistry. And they do it almost in the way of a, uh, seasoned sailor feels the wind change. Because long before a team goes toxic, it goes quiet. Let's start with that. Let's start with silent. So if meetings feel like monologues instead of dialogues.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Something's wrong. When team members stop asking questions, they stop challenging ideas, or worse, they start defaulting to whatever you think is best. That is not alignment, it's disengagement in disguise. I can give you an example. So, and I want to preface this by saying that the company I work for, Capgemini, they do work for Boeing and some of Boeing subsidiaries. So you know, in this story, I'm definitely speaking as just a person, a citizen, and not a representative, a representative of my company. But let's take Boeing's very public 737 Max crisis. One of the most chilling revelations was how employees and engineers had, uh, internal concerns about the design flaws. But those warnings never made it to leadership in time. So in this case, the red flag wasn't just the malfunctioning technology, which was bad. It was really the organizational silence that let it persist. So when psychological safety, to your point, erodes, truth becomes expensive and unfortunately, whisper thin.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, a second Red flag meetings after the meetings. Okay, you know the ones where the real opinions and discussions emerge in hallway chatter or on dm?

Speaker A: Um, right.

Speaker B: This isn't collaboration. It is avoidance, pure and simple. This pattern is eerily reflected in George Orwell's 1984. And I know that that's something that's probably misreprenced or misquoted over and over again, but I think it's prescient in this example, um, if you go back and you think about that book or the movie, truth is suppressed. Authentic conversation breaks out in secret corners. And honestly, while your workplace is probably not Big Brother, the emotional effects of operating under fear are futility are just as real. Another warning sign or overlooked sign is chronic ambiguity that's masked as busyness. If your team is constantly slammed but vague about their goals and outcomes, that's really not productivity. I think it's more like survival mode, in fact, kind of burnout through busyness often hinges or really hides bigger dysfunction like lack of role clarity or misaligned priorities. I've personally seen this while consulting through large scale transformations where teams that sprint in every direction but don't really move forward are often starved of purpose, not necessarily resources. And beware of the too nice team. So if no one ever disagrees or pushes back or even raises alternative ideas, it may feel like utopia on the surface, but it's really a culture of fear dressed in courtesy. I think most of um, I know we have and most of your listeners have read the five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. But the way he puts it, absence of conflict is not harmony. It's a sign that people have emotionally checked out. Remember, healthy teams like friendships and other relationships debate. They disagree respectfully, they just don't pass the talking stick. They use it to challenge. They use it to question and to co create or co curate. What should leaders do when they spot these red flags? Four key things I think get curious, not combative, ask questions. You want to create a forum where the quiet voices get airtime. You don't want just the extroverts monopolizing the time in the meeting. Next, model vulnerability. Again, this goes back to people are looking to you as a guide, a guidepost. So you have to model the different traits, the different behaviors that is going to cultivate strong team.

Speaker A: You have to model it. You have to show them what you expect them to do. You have to be the person to show. I mean, I wish there was another word for model, but you have to walk it. You have to Live it where people can see you doing that so they understand what's expected. And if I'm doing it, then this is what I expect of you as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, you can't interpret politeness with purpose. So avoid settling for phrases like looks good to me. You want to dig deeper. You want to ask what concerns you about this approach. And I, uh, do want to say there is cultural nuance. Remember, most of this is coming from a very ethnocentric view of leadership, of management. Again, what may work in the US in parts of Europe and Canada, may not work in Latin America, may not work in the Middle East. So it's going to be a lot harder to make changes in a global organization or you're dealing with cross cultural team members than if you're operating in a local or a regional business. So there's always nuance, but the just is the same. I mean, good leadership is good leadership across all cultures. And then finally, measure what matters. So although engagement surveys are helpful, they typically go, uh, out once or twice a year. I always preferred those informal pulse checks because understanding how your people feel often reveals a lot more. Because teams feel heard, seen, and safe, they don't just avoid dysfunction, they build that Camelot together.

Speaker A: I'm seeing this as, or I'm hearing this as. These are really good strategies for rebuilding trust. If it was obviously, if it was already compromised. These are what good leaders do. But what about those leaders that unintentionally create those red flags themselves? I'm asking because most of us know what good leadership should be, because we want that. But then we also experience some of these leaders that are doing things, and they may not be intentionally doing it to jeopardize the team, but they are. And so my goal here is let's bring awareness to what those things are. So if there are leaders that are here, and they're trying to use this podcast as a way to learn how to do better, let's talk about a few of those things that they might be doing that they can change.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the classic examples of somebody that from an intentionality standpoint, are very much on the right track, but are making errors in judgment that if not a red flag, it will certainly cause drama, cause conflict down the road. And this comes with the territory of being an inspirational leader. People gravitate towards you, and it's not just wanting to work with you and being excited to work under you, but they want to connect with you on a personal level. They're drawn to you because you're inspirational. You help them be better. And I think we all gravitate to people that make us feel special. And so one of the side effects of being a uh, really good leader is that people want your opinion on things outside of work and they want to spend time with you and they want to share things. So when you find yourself being drawn into working relationships where you're maybe spending more time with, with your favorites than with the entire team, when you find yourself spending a lot more time than you should talking about things that aren't work related, it's now don't get me wrong, it's extremely important to get to know your team.

Speaker A: Yeah. And have those relationships. It's just when you're having them, that's a snowball.

Speaker B: So I would say that's a big one. Again, the intention is always good, but it can, it can get away from you very easily. So I think another one, and this is one that I suffer from not saying I'm a great leader, definitely trying to be. I'm um, a work in progress. But it's fighting off too much. It's taking on too much responsibility. It's trying to please everybody to say yes. Not because you want to show off, not because it's only you in your mind can do the job or complete the task to the best of ability.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: It's you feel a sense of responsibility, a sense of ownership, a uh, sense of you don't want to let your team down. And I think that's noble. But it's a slippery slope. If you have to do it once or twice in a year, that's fine. But if you find yourself consistently spending nights and weekends doing more than your fair share, making up, uh, for a team member that isn't able to work or isn't performing because of uh, personal issues or because somebody on your team has uh, left the organization and you're in the process of hiring his or her replacement and you don't want to saddle your team member with extra work that can get you into a lot of trouble because you are no different than anyone else on your team. You can suffer from the same afflictions. You can burn out, you can get stressed. And when we are stressed, especially over a long period of time, we're going to make bad decisions. The quality of our work, the quality of our leadership is going to diminish. So that's another one I would say watch out for.

Speaker A: I can kind of relate to that one.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: A lot. Even though I'm not in a Real leadership position. Sometimes I know I take on a little much and I try to help other people out and then, yeah, it does get tough. I can totally relate. Okay, let's switch gears a little bit. Let's talk more about your book because I know you're really excited about it. It offers a unique framework thinking about modern leadership. Let's say the book is called Crafting the Corporate Camelot. It's such a great title. Okay, so in this book, you compare leadership to assembling a modern day roundtable. Right. And you share what it looks like in practice. I love the analogy. What traits define a knight? Like in the roundtable in today's workplace? Um, it's great imagery, Right. So it really brings leadership to life in a really memorable way. Walk us through the concept of like the roundtable and the quote, knights that you think every leader should be building around them.

Speaker B: Yeah, gladly. I love talking about this because this is my first book. This was a journey that started out. Could I do it? Can I do. It's, uh, like training to run a marathon. And just, just doing it was a reward, was a challenge achieved. The more I got into it, the more that I really felt that this is something that I think will benefit a lot of people. When I wrote it, I wanted to really offer a model of leadership that wasn't rooted in hierarchies or corporate speech. We've got plenty of those and some of them are very good. So don't get me wrong. But in today's workplace, I find that the concept of the mythological roundtable is really more than just a metaphor. It's a method. Okay. It's a leadership model where power is distributed, where trust is shared, and where every voice carries weight. So not just the one with the biggest title, are the one with the loudest voice. So what does this actually look like? I think of companies like Patagonia, and we talked about Patagonia a little bit earlier in our conversation. Their MHM employees co author the mission. Okay. Decisions are made in line with core values, not just revenue targets. Employees are expected to challenge leadership if something seems ethically off course. That's baked into how they hire, how they onboard, how they coach, develop and promote. It's in their DNA. Netflix, MHM is another good example. And both of these organizations I use as case studies in the book, they have a culture of radical candor. And I love that. Leaders invite feedback from all levels, even if it's uncomfortable. They're open feedback loops. They flatten the hierarchy. They create a space where Somebody fresh out of grad school can challenge a VP because it's the ideas that matter more than the ego. It's a bit like King Arthur giving every one of his knights a seat at the table. Not because of their lineage, but because of their valor, their vision, their voice.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I recently read a good book called High Conflict by Amanda Ripley. It's been out for a while. In it, she examines how teams in societies at large can escape destructive polarization by inviting structured dissent and shared inquiry. Definitely an important book for us to read in these interesting times. But the way I look at it is the roundtable isn't just about agreement. It's about meaningful alignment forged through courageous conversation. And that really only happens when leaders create the space for real talk. So a modern night, I guess for me, speaks truth. The power, even when it's risky. Mentors generously knowing that their legacy is shaped by who they lift or uplift. They model humility, recognizing that they too are always learning. They act with integrity under pressure. Again, acting in integrity when things are going fine is easy. It's when the temperature gets turned up. And above all, they prioritize purpose over prestige. Right. You have to. It's all about character.

Speaker A: Do you think there's a trait that is overlooked when these leaders are trying to form strong teams around them?

Speaker B: I think two. I think you want the ability to learn. I think that's oftentimes a good indicator of somebody's leadership potential. If you're curious, if you're humble, if you have a natural propensity to learn and evolve. I think that's a huge selling point because that individual will not be reluctant to be pushed or step outside of their comfort zone. They will always be looking to grow and to take on more responsibility, more accountability, and ultimately ownership. I think that's really important and unfortunately it's oftentimes overlooked. I think another one is again a leader or a manager or supervisor that is suffering from a lot of the symptoms of imposter syndrome. M who are leading based on what they think makes a good leader a good manager. If a manager is a little weaker, is a little bit more suspect in their confidence, in their competence, if you will, they're probably not going to be all that enthusiastic. Hiring people that are maybe a little bit better than they are in certain respects.

Speaker A: Yeah. That challenge them.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you're more likely going to hire somebody that isn't going to shine brighter than you. Because if you're self conscious, if you're defensive, the last thing you want to do is add more pressure, even if it's perceived pressure on yourself. Even though hiring people that are better than you or uh, have the potential to be better than you isn't the point. Right. You always want to hire the best people. Not the best experts or the best specialists, but the people that are the most well rounded who can push you and help you become a better leader and help you lead the team and the organization. It's all about benefiting your team, the organization, your stakeholders, your customers, whatever that may be. But again, if you're not at that point in time where you're as introspective, you may inadvertently, it may not be intentional. You may just gravitate toward people that you think you're giving them a break or you're going to help them by bringing them on. They're not exactly going to lift you

Speaker A: up and everyone else around that same train of thought. We have these leaders that are hiring people who might challenge them or might even outshine them. Do you have any strategies to help those leaders overcome their ego or their fear? I mean, there's got to be some way to tell them, hey, if this is how you feel right now, here's something you can work on to overcome that.

Speaker B: So I would say a big one in the book is understanding your authentic leadership style, Right? Mhm. What is your authentic self? Yes. There's a little bit of stoicism there. And I think assessments, I think talking with people that you respect, people that can become informal mentors, is really important. But whatever pathway you choose, it starts with understanding that you have a blind spot, that you are insecure, and that you may inadvertently let that insecurity lead you down the wrong path and make bad decisions. So the first thing you have to do is admit that you have a problem.

Speaker A: It's recognizing it.

Speaker B: And understand that again, it goes back to good leaders are constantly growing and developing and pushing themselves outside their comfort zone. This is part of it. This is about having difficult conversations. Maybe not with other people, but with yourself. Yeah. And admitting what you don't know and actually doing things to address those needs.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so along those same lines, just to kind of sum up what we've been talking about, it's really important to build people around you to sit at that roundtable. But it also means as a good leader, giving people ownership, not just more responsibility. Letting them own their learning and trusting them to be a valuable part of that team. I really love that concept. So great job coming up with it because it makes the whole idea more relatable and since some of us have read some mythology, we kind of like that storytelling that you've incorporated in there. Um, so I know you've talked about how ignored voices can become resentful ones. What can organizations do to promote psychological ownership? Or let's say, retain strong voices even when people disagree?

Speaker B: Yeah, great. Organizations don't just tolerate dissent, they design for it. And again, dissent doesn't have to be belligerent. It doesn't have to be breaking with norms and customs and in the rules of the business ethics. Um, because honestly, if the only people sticking around, the ones that remain in the organization or on your team are the ones that nod politely. Um, the culture may look aligned on the surface, but it's probably just one crisis away from crumbling.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So in the book I described psychological ownership as the modern Excalibur. It's what empowers employees to act with conviction, to speak with courage and lead from any seat at the table, even if that seat doesn't come with a title. It's more than engagement, it's really about agency. And let's be honest, most people disengage because they no longer see themselves in the story that the company is telling. So psychological ownership begins when people move from passengers to co pilots. I think that's the major distinction. You look at Lego, they crowdsource ideas from their fan base, including their own employees, and let people vote on future product lines. When employees and even customers see their fingerprints on what's being built, they feel a sense of ownership, a sense of personal stake. Right. That's awesome. One of the best ways to show people they belong, even when they challenge the status quo, is to institutionalize respectful dissent. So I think a great example of this is Amazon and their disagree and commit principle. Part of that addresses that leaders are encouraged to voice disagreement, but once a decision is made, everybody falls in line. So you have a chance to dissent, you have a chance to object, provide alternatives, and it's the wisdom of the crowd. Once a decision is made, it's like, okay, we've had, we've had our say, we've said our piece, let's move on.

Speaker A: Yeah, so providing, um, that space for disagreement but not undermining authority at the same place to create unity.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, in my own consulting work, I've helped executive teams implement conflict rituals which are like structured debates and decision pre mortem that allow strong voices to sharpen strategy but not derail it. I think when disagreement, when managed well, it becomes a performance enhancer.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And ownership Thrives when leaders stop trying to control every idea and instead cultivate the soil where good ones grow.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You look at Satya Nadella's transformation of Microsoft. He didn't just pivot strategy when Steve Ballmer left. He rewired the whole company culture to reward curiosity, to reward learning and intellectual humility.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Suddenly it was okay to be wrong because learning became the point. And so psychological ownership isn't fueled by perfection. It's really fueled by permission. A great parallel is actually Ted Lasso. If you've ever seen the show Ted Lasso. Love Ted Lasso. Yeah, so he's not the smartest person in the room. You know, he's coaching English football, but they recruited him from college football. And not like big time college football, but like D2 college football. He creates a culture where everyone feels like they own the outcome. And that's the beauty of the story of, um, the show. And I think strong voices who dissent really aren't the enemy. They're the early alarm bells when group thinks start setting in. But organizations that fail to listen. I can think of Nokia during the smartphone revolution, or when a very early iteration of Netflix came knocking on Blockbuster's door, wanting to get bought. They often pay the price, not for their strategy, but for silencing the very voices that could have changed it. Another one of my favorite authors in books, and I refer to her in my own book, but Amy Edmondson in the Fearless Organization, I think she sums it up really well. She says that teams that fear consequences for candor quickly shift from problem solvers to problem hiders. And nothing is more dangerous than a culture where silence masquerades as agreement. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: That is really powerful. Well, let's talk a little bit more about you.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Let's talk about your leadership legacy. So usually when we talk about leadership legacy, it's maybe at the end of somebody's career, but you're not the end of your career. I like asking this question mid journey. Right. So if you were to sum up some of the impact that you've had as a leader, what would you say it would be?

Speaker B: I would hope it would say something like, he built spaces where people, people became their boldest and bravest selves and reminded everyone that work is more meaningful when driven by purpose, not just performance. I think that's really the heart of the book. Not just leadership as authority, but leadership as invitation. A call to courage, clarity, and community. And I think that really ties all the themes together nicely. Now, I don't mean brave Spaces like Kumbayas or. I mean, environments where people feel psychologically safe.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Enough to be fully human, to take risks, to voice dissent, to admit mistakes, and most importantly, to share audacious ideas. Another one of my favorite books, Atomic Habits, written by James Clear. His message is profound. In this book, he basically says that lasting change doesn't come from occasional horror heroics. It comes from daily, deliberate practice. And I see legacy the same way. It's not defined in one keynote or one crisis. It's defined every day in the minutia. How you listen in meetings, how you advocate for others, how you show up when no one's watching. It's the grind. It's the grit. And of course, I'm deeply influenced by my work in enterprise transformation, where leaders often assume their legacy will be linked to a system implementation or some KPI.

Speaker A: I was going to say some KPI that,

Speaker B: but ask their teams, and the answers are always different. She had my back during layoffs. He challenged me when I didn't believe I could. They made space for us to do meaningful work, even when it got messy. These are the moments that matter.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so legacy isn't the castle. I know we talk about Camelot. It's not the castle. It's the culture you build inside it. So if it. If it's done right, if legacy. If my legacy is done right, it's that I handed others the tools to forge their own legacies, that I created conditions where people could do the hard things, the human things, and the meaningful things.

Speaker A: I love that. I say that a lot. I shouldn't say I love it all the time, but very inspiring. I hope that is your legacy as well. I feel like you're building towards it and you'll fulfill that legacy. Okay, so great. This is the Mindset to Learn podcast. And this season I am exploring leadership through the lens of learning as well. So what do you think it means for a leader to have a mindset?

Speaker B: To learn, I think you have to be, maybe not happy, but you have to be content in what you're doing. Your profession, your occupation, whatever you want to call it is, is your greatest self. You are doing what is your best gift. You are living your gifts. And it may not be sexy. It may be running a waste management company, it may be owning a soft drink delivery business. It may be being a professional athlete. But if that's your talent, if that's your sweet spot, it's embracing it and realizing that you never just arrive, it's never over. You're constantly evolving you're constantly growing and you're not doing it just because you want to make more money. You want the next title, the next promotion.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You want the recognition. It's human not to want those things. So I'm not going to say don't pursue them, don't think about them, but it really should all be ancillary to fulfilling that. That sense of pride, that pride of ownership that you're doing the things that you were meant to do.

Speaker A: And in that case, learning more about yourself and learning more about the people you're leading and learning more about the career path that you're on so that you can keep moving forward. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: It's a journey. We're constantly evolving as people, as humans. This job you're in today, you may get tired of it. You may want to pursue something else that you haven't ever thought of, or the occupation doesn't even exist. I mean, five years ago there, there was no prompt engineer. Right. So you never know what the future holds for you. But you want to be prepared. You want to be in a position where you're ready to make a move when the time arrives. And the best way to do that is to stay curious, stay humble, and just continuing to feed the beast.

Speaker A: Yes. Great. Thank you so much for sharing all of these stories and your frameworks and what we can expect when we read Crafting the Corporate Camelot. Where can people find you?

Speaker B: So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Um, I do post a lot of commentary on different articles on different thought leadership pieces. I do write my own. So about every week or two I'll put out an article on LinkedIn. I have an account on Substack and Medium.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So I'm pretty active there. And then of course, I'm already working on my next book, so hopefully I'll make this regular thing. I'm not ready to give up my day job, but it's a fun hobby. It keeps me out of trouble and

Speaker A: you get to keep talking about it. Well, I will have the links to all of the ways that we can contact Grey once we're done listening to the podcast. Gray, thank you again so much for joining me.

Speaker B: Thank you, Anna.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was an incredible conversation. Gray reminded us that leadership isn't about titles or charisma. It's about showing up with authenticity. And of course we know it's important to create those spaces for courageous conversations. I loved his insight on clarity and composure and the metaphor of leadership as a modern day roundtable. It truly reframes how we think about power and inclusion. Thank you so much, Gray, for sharing your wisdom and your heart. I know you're not just writing about leadership, you're also modeling it to all the listeners. If you found value in today's episode, be sure to check the show notes for links to Gray's book, his article, and other ways to connect with him. And as always, continuous learning keeps you in the mindset to learn.