Episode 811: A Conversation With Denise Stalker (TalentProcure)

Christopher Dwyer: Hi. Welcome to another all new edition of the Future of Work Exchange podcast. My name is Christopher Dwyer, SVP of Research at Ardent Partners and also Managing Director of the Future of Work Exchange. I am thrilled to welcome someone that I've known for a long time. Consider a friend, and I know everyone will enjoy the conversation. So thrilled to welcome Denise Stocker, SVP of Managed Services at Talent Procure. Denise, so thrilled to have you on.

Denise Stocker: Thanks, Chris. I'm excited for this too. Been looking forward to it.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, it's, and I always say it's, it's when you talk to someone so much like you and I have had so many wonderful conversations to be able to actually like, take a step back and record that and let everyone else enjoy all of the insights. Um, you know, I think is pretty incredible. So really thrilled that you've, you've, uh, allowed us the time to, to be on the podcast. So, so thanks so much. And of course, as we always start these things, love to hear a little bit more about yourself and your background.

Denise Stocker: So I have been in the MSP world for about 16 years now. Uh, I originally came from the training world and transitioned into staffing via the MSP and have moved a couple of times, but, um, landed here and launched Talent Procure about three years ago.

Christopher Dwyer: So, Denise, I must have to say, obviously it makes you feel old when you say that out loud when you're like, oh, I've been in the space 16 years. Right. It does make you feel old. But, um, I think that, you know, when you look at where we are today just as an industry, right? It's, it's, it allows you to think that perspective that a lot of folks don't have, right. That don't have that level of experience. Right. So I'd love to pick your brain a little bit about. And maybe we'll start here sort of state of the market, right? I mean, I, I think there's so many different ways of looking at where we are today. When you look at, you know, economy, you look at staffing, you look at the contingent workforce market. I know, obviously we'll talk about Talent Procure, we'll talk about the solutions industry as well. Cause it'd good to get your feedback on that. But, you know, for those of those in IT that are listening to us right now, that are managing programs, they're about to manage programs, they're hiring, they're in recruitment, they're in procurement, they're in ta. You know what, uh, would be your sort of like, state of the market, you Know, where are we today?

Denise Stocker: I think that's a really interesting question because I think everyone's perspective could be a little different. If you ask everybody across the market that question. We really have seen a huge uptick in the mid market where there are a lot of Gen 1 programs, people that are finally interested or maybe ready for some kind of formalized contingent workforce program. Um, a lot of times when I'm talking with potential clients, it is that they didn't realize that there were MSPs that could help them because their programs weren't big enough. So what I've seen is kind of a transition from the big giant programs to oh, uh, we can do this too and we can have the same kind of management and oversight and reap the same benefits. So I've kind of seen a transition and like you said, being in the industry for a long time, I've kind of seen it ebb and flow and go in different directions. But this past 12 months I've really seen a huge increase in mid market activity.

Christopher Dwyer: So Deason, let me stop you there. Right. Because I think that's a great thing to kind of pick apart a little bit. No matter who we're talking to. Right. Whether, you know, obviously a lot of the work that we do at Ardent is focused on, you know, research and insights and future of work. It's extended workforce. But the one, one of several sort of consistencies is sort of like that mid market sector. Right. I think when you look at just how far those businesses, uh, have come, it's really interesting. I mean you spent a lot of time at our event in Boston a few months ago and it was great talking to some of those folks that, you know, maybe five, six years ago they wouldn't have had like a true program. And it doesn't matter if it's 25 million or 50 million in annual spend. They need the same level of care and um, you know, oversight and augmentation and control that a 500 million program, $500 million program would have.

Denise Stocker: Right? Yep. Yeah, they need, and they all want the same level of service. They don't want less service because their program's smaller. You know, they still have the same requirements, they still have to report cost savings, they still have to make sure that they have compliance. And I think for a long time they were kind of overlooked and a little bit neglected.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. It's, it's. I didn't want to say the word neglect, so I'm glad you did first, but it's uh, I mean, you know, from like, from the VMS side, you know, companies like um, like Beeline and Fieldglass. Right? What they, they have their mid market offerings. Right. And I know that a lot of companies tried this, you know, 10, 15 years ago and it did, you know, those models didn't work so well. But maybe it's sophistication in the mid market, maybe it's the complexities, the intricacies of the contingent workforce. But um, I just think it's really fascinating to talk about the mid market. And you wouldn't think mid market is exciting, but it is because it's, you know, I have to imagine from your perspective, right, all the wonderful work that Talent Procure does. There's a different level of care, I think sometimes that goes into helping a mid market organization rather than, you know, the traditional enterprise size program.

Denise Stocker: Totally agree. Um, and I think that that's because mid market programs typically don't have the same kind of internal staff that large programs have. So they do need more care and they do need more direction and guidance, regulatory updates. You know, they might have one person from HR that's assigned to the program. That person can't know everything. So I do think that it requires a kind of an additional level of support from the msp. So I think it's been a really cool thing to watch that transition. And I think too that there are a lot more MSPs out there than there were 10, 15 years ago. Right. That they have more options. And I think people have started to realize, like we should be catering to the clients that don't have um, an alternative right now.

Christopher Dwyer: And uh, this is probably a good segue, Denise, into our next part of uh, you know, I would call Denise's state of the market. Right. I remember. And this is maybe like maybe 2019 or 2020. You know, at Ardent, we were helping a mid market company in Canada go out to bid for an MSP solution. And you know, what I was trying to do is, you know, bring our MSP colleagues into the mix. Right. And you uh, know all the traditional names. We won't say them out loud, but it was just shocking to me that some of the household um, MSPs were like, that's a no bid for us. We don't want to be a part of that. Right. Whereas today I feel like everyone wants to attack the mid market because it keeps growing and it's, and there's some type of, I don't know the right word there. But like it's not just Value, but I feel like it's just a huge opportunity for the entirety of the market, not just providers that specialize and in that sector.

Denise Stocker: Yeah, I would agree it is a huge opportunity. But I, I will say, Chris, I am still seeing some of the, the much larger MSPs pass up on those opportunities because it isn't really their sweet spot and I think they know that they can't necessarily deliver the same kind of value because it's just not their model. It just doesn't make sense. Um, we've even had some of the large MSPs reach out to us and say, hey, we've referred you because we know that you can do this kind of work for the mid market. Um, and for us it just doesn't make sense. I think that there is more of an awareness out there of what they are willing to and not willing to do. But I think three, you know, I think back to three years ago when we were just launching this and there were probably to my knowledge 25 to 30 msps. Today I feel like there are 230. So it's been interesting. But again, I think, I think a lot of staffing companies realized that there was that need. So they, they branched out and you know, either created a division or another separate company to handle that kind of work.

Christopher Dwyer: So again, good, good segue to the next part of the conversation here. So let's look at, you know, the entirety of the contingent workforce solutions market. Right. Again, you spent a long time in the space, uh, you know, even though it does make us nerds, this is our life, right? We live and breathe this. Um, you know, your perspective on um, where, like where solutions are today, not just services, msp, but tac, direct sourcing as well. You know, where do you see the market there?

Denise Stocker: I think that there has been a big shift. I don't think everybody's going msp. I think a lot of companies are keeping things in house and they have, you know, special, let's call them subject matter experts that are handling different pieces of it. So you know, I know of one potential client that we talked to last year and they were debating on whether to go external or if they were going to keep things internal. And I was very honest with him. I said if you have the right people, if you have the right subject matter expertise to do the things that you're talking about, it makes sense to keep it in house. I uh, think for some companies that definitely makes a lot more sense. Sometimes where there is a lot of rigor around government contracts, it makes more sense to keep it in house. But it's all about do they have the subject matter expertise to do it. And I know direct sourcing has been kind of a buzzword over the last several years and I think everybody's got their own version of it. But that is something that I have seen a lot of people be really successful at doing on their own. So I think that direct sourcing has grown a lot. That referral based work is working very well for people. We've seen a spike in payroll requests and not as much on sourcing. So I think the focus on savings over the last, let's say five to seven years specifically has forced people to do things that they wouldn't traditionally have necessarily embraced.

Christopher Dwyer: So diese, let me ask you, cause this is something that I, I've, I have this conversation all the time and it's, you know, I mean Arden, we've been conducting research for 13, 14 years in this space and one question we ask in our survey every single year is how is your program managed? Right. Is it in house? But you're using VMS tech, which is a popular model. Are you using the traditional combo of MSP and VMS? Are you a global company using multiple MSPs, multiple VMSs? Right. And you know, there's always like that sl of organizations. You know, maybe it's 17% in a given year, maybe it's a drop bigger, maybe it's 20, 21% that truly have an in house program like it's, it is, there's a director of that program. They've got, you know, they've got a full framework of team members. And the interesting thing from my perspective in uh, one of my many roles as a researcher is you look at the desire for businesses to bring their programs in house and it's like an additional 25, 30% of businesses say within the next couple years they want to bring their programs in house. But when we look at the data a year after that study launches and then you know, another year passes, not that many organizations have really made that reach. And do you think it's because they dissatisfied with the solutions model or is it a we want to do it in house, but all of a sudden we realize we don't have the resources, the expertise or you know, is it someone like you in your position where you're like, well you're only looking at tip of the iceberg with and how you can manage it. Like having the MSP model is going to help you on all these other ways, right. That they Just don't see what may be holding businesses back from going in house. And maybe it's a more commentary in why the MSP model is still obviously very viable and can drive our.

Denise Stocker: Yeah, I think most of the time when I'm having that conversation with people, the one thing that keeps them from bringing things in house is subject matter, expertise and cost. They don't have the budget to hire the number of people necessarily that they need need to do that. So that's why outsourcing it to an MSP still makes a lot of sense for many companies. And like you said, we can get in there and look at things in a different manner because we are not attached to them. For us to go in and look at someone's statements of work is very different than to have someone from procurement looking at their statements of work. Right. You know, we can expose things in a way that help them and don't threaten them when internally they're like, oh, we need to hide this because it hasn't been done. Right. So I think that there's a lot of factors that play into it. But uh, for us, I mean, on the MSP side, I think it's always showing them all of the different things that we do and that we look at, um, and not just savings, but process efficiencies. How can we make the lives easier of other people, not even just hr, talent acquisition or procurement, but their accounts payable, their accounts receivable. We really lay that out for them so that they can look at that holistically and say, okay, can they do it better or does it really make sense for us to do better? Right.

Christopher Dwyer: And dedicated. That's the thing that I always come back to too is like the idea that, um, you know, you are going to, and I don't mean the word expose in a bad way, but a lot of folks don't see like, oh my gosh, like, look how much misclassified spend or talent or work we have or. And you bring up services procurement. I mean, that's always a. Not a lot of folks like to talk services procurement. I love that area of our industry. Not many people do. Right. But that is a gigantic chunk of spend for a business. And just having the MSP exposed to that and helping to manage it, I mean, you want to talk dollars, right? You're going to save them a ton of money and then from an efficiency perspective, you're going to help them manage those projects better too. I mean, it's, it's almost a win win.

Denise Stocker: It definitely is. And the other thing to think about when you look at statements of work is, number one, you find a lot of misclassification. Right. It should be Staff Aug. We actually are doing a project with a client now where we found the typical, uh, they didn't think it was typical, but it is where people are putting Staff Aug on a statement of work to get around a length of stay policy. So how effective is your length of stay policy? You know, so it's also helping them examine, you know, you have all these policies, but how are they being enforced? Because there is no oversight, because it's not in a system where it's transparent and obvious for them. So again, looking at it holistically and not just the bits and pieces, I think is where an MSP really can shed light for a corporation.

Christopher Dwyer: Wanted to chat a little bit more specifically about Talent Procure. Right. I mean, uh, that's how, that's why you and I work together. I mean, I remember having a conversation with the team a few years ago when, you know, it, it was a division of Talent Burst. And, you know, now it's this amazing solution that's, you know, making waves in the market. When you look back just on the past few years and you look ahead to the future, what are you, I mean, what's your thoughts? Right. Again, you've spent a while in our space sort of like looking back and also looking ahead. What's been amazing for Talent Procure and then what's ahead for the solution?

Denise Stocker: Yeah. Thank you. Um, yeah, it's hard to believe it's been three years. It was, you know, it went from this thought to its infancy to spending a lot of time, you know, in the market talking to people, trying to get name brand recognition. We did divest it, its own company now. So, you know, we've come a long way in a very short period of time, but I think we have so much more to do. And I think for me, thinking about, you know, where we've come, you know, we've got some wonderful clients, we've done expansion with those clients, we've renewed contracts with clients already, so doing a lot of the right things. And I think my biggest focus right now is as we expand, continuing to be really super selective in who we bring in to work with us, making sure that it's the right client fit, making sure that we bring in the right staff for the right clients, um, and really maintaining culture because, you know, I, I have seen a lot in the last 16 years in this industry and I think culture is everything. Um, and I think that I have been really, really lucky and blessed to have the opportunity to build something from scratch and to, to be focused on the right things. And I always say to the team, everything we do, we do with a serving mentality. And as a result, we win in the end. You know, if, if our clients are winning and our suppliers are winning, we're winning. So that's just our focus.

Christopher Dwyer: And I love, Denise, that you bring up the word culture. Right. Because I think it speaks to the human side of our business. Um, um. I mean, you've been at the last few Future of Work events that we've had here in Boston as part of the Future of Work Exchange series. And, um, I mean, you've heard me say, like, the future of work is human. And the MSP model, I think, really hinges on, you know, a prospect or an organization feeling comfortable with you and your team and vice versa. Right. I mean, there's that human fit on both sides. So I've just. It's more. Not a question, it's more commentary that I. It's great to hear that. It's refreshing because, you know, there's so much more focus today on like, you know, digitization and AI. And we'll talk about AI too, of course, but I think that human element is something that we just shouldn't forget.

Denise Stocker: Yeah, I think that clients still want that and need that. They want to know that they can pick up the phone and talk to somebody here now with urgency. So I think that, you know, there is going to be evolution around automation and AI and some of those things. But for us, our focus will always be on making sure that we have the right people for our clients. Um, and that we don't lose focus on that.

Christopher Dwyer: So going from human to the complete opposite. Right. Thoughts on AI in our space. I mean, it's. I know. And again, we could talk for hours about this and I know it's tough to sort of like cherry pick the points you want to talk about, but AI is omnipresent in our personal lives as people and as consumers and in our space. You know, you see it as a way to, you know, skills match, skills assessment. You know, you see recruitment bots. I mean, it's, it's is just everywhere in our industry. What, what are your thoughts on where it is now and what the future impact will be?

Denise Stocker: I think right now we're at a very interesting place. Um, I think that I actually did a lot of research on this because I was kind of fascinated by who was embracing AI and who Wasn't. And I think that, uh, having five generations in the workplace right now plays into who's accepting of it, who's embracing it, who's running with it. The youngest generation in the workforce right now. That's all they know, right? So it's totally normal for them to get a text or a phone call from an AI agent asking if they're interested in a job. They're like, yeah, this is great. Perfect. Maybe I don't even have to talk to anybody. This is wonderful, because that's how they communicate. On the other end of the spectrum, when you look at anybody, I would say 40 or older, they're a little skeptical about it. They don't know how much they want to embrace it. So I think that we're in an intersection, right, where we know some people are going to be aging out of the workforce. And I think that as we continue to grow the workforce with young people and we keep filling those jobs with younger folks, AI is the future. And I think we have to be really smart about how we use it. I think we have to be very careful about how we use it, because AI learns what we teach it, right? It's artificial intelligence for a reason. But I do. I've also seen huge benefits in, you know, allowing it to help us with onboarding, for example, um, you know, automating workflows to make things easier for clients. So I think there are huge advantages, but I don't think that we're. We're anywhere near where it's going to end up. I think we've got a long way to go.

Christopher Dwyer: And it's funny you say that because. And I always feel is like, as someone who has been talking about the future of work for 15 years, like, I always feel like it's a bucket of cold water. I mean, it's. If you looked at the Fortune 500, right? Um, it's only a sliver of them that are. That are, like, true, like, leaders in AI. Like, I feel like everyone is still figuring things out, right? The research that we conducted late last year and into this summer, I think it was something like 6 or 7% of businesses consider themselves true adopters of AI. And it's like imagine three or four years ago saying that a particular type of technology, only 6 or 7% of businesses, truly, we wouldn't be talking about it, but because it's AI, it's a different discussion. But, um, I think it's when you look, you know, you look forward, right? As you said that, you know, there's another probably 50, 60% of organizations that are like piloting right now that are figuring out where it fits. But, um, I think there's a lot

Denise Stocker: of upskilling going on.

Christopher Dwyer: Yes, right.

Denise Stocker: I think a lot of people are learning how to use AI and how to be effective with it. So as that population continues to grow, I think it's going to explode.

Christopher Dwyer: So one last question on AI. It's just so interesting to me, you know, like if I were in your shoes, I'd be like, wow, like I am running a managed service provider, a workforce solution that's truly like a solution solution. It's a human based, services based business. But AI is so prevalent today. Like where does MSP and AI intersect?

Denise Stocker: Um, I am actually not worried about that. And I might be one of the few that's not. I think that no matter what we do with AI, we're still going to need people. You're going to need people, you're going to need programmers, you're going to need developers, you're going to need a lot of skills maybe that don't exist today, but when I think back over the last 50 years, think about the skills of people 50 years ago versus the skills of people now. We're going to continue to evolve and grow and upskill ourselves because we have to to survive. That's what we do. We change and we adapt every day. You know, people always say, oh, no one likes change. Well, we do it all the time. You know, I woke up today and it was 5 degrees. I put on a turtleneck, it's cold. You have to adapt. And I think that um, you know, the world of work is a great place to think about that. You know, I recently did a talk a few months and we talked about what that evolution of skills was over the last 80 years. Because I was looking at it very specifically over my parents lifetime and when I think about what they were doing then for work, um, and you think about how vastly different things are, it's pretty impressive. And you think about all of the innovations that have happened over those years. It's amazing.

Christopher Dwyer: It totally is. Totally agree. Um, I would change, just uh, change pathways for a second here. Again, AI, maybe we could talk about this for hours, but we won't.

Denise Stocker: Thank you.

Christopher Dwyer: Direct sourcing, right? Like, I know this is near and dear to your heart. It certainly is here as well. I want to get your general thoughts on direct sourcing, but I will pre preamble with this. And I think you, you said this earlier like direct sourcing can mean different. Things to different businesses. Right. And maybe it's a, uh, a problem that there's still no true definition. But, um, we're certainly out of hype stage of direct sourcing. It's. Where are we today with direct sourcing?

Denise Stocker: I think that a lot of people tried to deploy a direct sourcing solution, and some had success, some didn't. So I think, in my opinion, it's kind of stalled a little bit. I will say the approach that I've taken with direct sourcing may be a little different than some of the traditional direct sourcing platforms. I think direct sourcing in its simplest form is leveraging a client's brand to attract talent. I think that's. That's really all it is. And I think it's important to design a solution specific to that client that they're, number one, comfortable with. And I don't think you can rely solely on technology to do it. I think people have to be involved to cultivate that relationship, to make sure that you are keeping those leads warm, to make sure that they are getting opportunities when they're posted in programs where I have seen us rely more on technology than on people. It hasn't. It hasn't been as fruitful for the client. But when we have done it, where it's kind of that combined effort where you're using technology to an extent, but you have a curator, let's say, that is managing that talent pool and attracting more people into it and doing outreach internally with a client to talk to managers to get referrals and really build a robust network, that's when they start to see a difference. We've taken a bit of a combined approach when we deploy that for clients, and it seems to be doing pretty well. And like I said, we've seen an uptick in payroll versus staffing, and that direct sourcing is piece of that for us.

Christopher Dwyer: Um, one more thing in direct sourcing feel. And I was part of the, you know, one of the first waves of, like, total talent back in the day. And I, you know, we raise my hand and say I'm definitely part of the problem. You know, I've been talking about total talent for 15 years, and I'm very, you know, bullish on the fact that, like, you know, total talent can be a reality if we have the right circumstances in place for direct sourcing. I feel like that's because I know a lot of folks put direct sourcing in the same camp as total talent, where it's like, well, it's very nebulous. It's what's the definition? But, um, the reality is like, we don't have like Total Talent solutions and services. We have direct sourcing solutions and services. And so businesses shouldn't be, you know, you shouldn't be worried about the reality or the hype, like, or theory. Direct sourcing is real. It can be leveraged.

Denise Stocker: Absolutely. And it can be leveraged for contingent or it can be leveraged for full time. Right. Yeah, uh, it's. And I think that's the challenge is most people have pigeonholed it just for contingent where if they can help expand the minds of the people at the client, we could get to Total Talent Management. And I, I'm, I'm a firm believer in it. I think it's, it's awesome. Honestly. I think I've had one client in my entire 16 years that has embraced it, uh, and been excited by it. Um, I think it's a hard sell. It is for them, you know, it is.

Christopher Dwyer: And not to entities. Not to get too off in a tangent on Total Talent, I think the, and I've been saying this for years, the problem with Total Talent is that it's really tough to. Because, you know, we're. Everyone loves data, they love roi, they love to talk about like true quantitative value. You don't have 45 total talent case studies. Right. Direct sourcing, you could say. All right, well, at Talent Procure, we have these 14 clients that have done it very well. They've driven X percentage cost savings, they've improved talent quality by X percent. Right. With Total Talent, we don't have those wonderful case studies.

Denise Stocker: Yeah, it's one of those, um. Can you believe it before you see it, you know, um, and somebody will, right? Somebody will. And then there will be a huge case study and everybody will want to do it. Um, but getting there, I think is going to take us a little bit of time.

Christopher Dwyer: Right, right. Time, time, time. Unfortunately. Right. With Total Talent. But, um, okay, I have two, I would say two real questions and one fun question left for you.

Denise Stocker: Right.

Christopher Dwyer: Uh, what's one thing that surprised you this year?

Denise Stocker: One thing that surprised me, I would say the number of RFPs that came out. I was genuinely shocked. Um, I became an expert RFP writer in a very short window, honestly, early this year. I want to say it was Q1. I looked back and I was like, we wrote nine RFPs. This is insane. And if this pace keeps up, uh, we're going to need someone full time to just do this for us. So I think the volume was kind of a shock. For me this year. But it was very encouraging because it told me there's still a lot of opportunity out there, which is great.

Christopher Dwyer: So it's a little double edged and too, Denise. It's. And I say this not just as, uh, someone who admires you, but as someone who considers you a friend. Like, not only are you doing like you're being the face of the organization out there, you're on the road all the time, but you're behind the scenes as well, doing all of the hard work.

Denise Stocker: Yeah. But you know what, I have a wonderful team that does a ton of it. I feel like a director on stage. Right. You're kind of making all the actors do and go where you need them to, but really it's. They're making the magic happen. Tremendous support and, uh, I definitely couldn't do it without them.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. Well, good to hear. Um, all right, one more real question and then a fun question. Big prediction for next year.

Denise Stocker: Big prediction for next year.

Christopher Dwyer: You can have multiple.

Denise Stocker: I think my biggest prediction is that we are going to see a change in the number of providers. And when I say providers, I mean suppliers. VMS technologies, msps. I think it felt like everybody kind of threw their hat in the ring all at once and there was this big explosion. And I think that we're going to see some of them stay, some of them go, some of them get acquired. I think it's going to be very interesting to see where everybody ends up in the next 12 months.

Christopher Dwyer: And as a piggyback to that question, I was going to say do we see consultant? Do you anticipate consolidation? Do you see some acquisitions? I mean, it makes sense when, uh, you see a company like a Workday or an SAP acquire an AI platform like a Paradox or smart recruiters. But besides, sort of like the AI acquisitions, you know. You know, do you see consolidation within our specific industry?

Denise Stocker: I do. I think you'll see msps buy other MSPs. It's easier to grow by acquisition.

Christopher Dwyer: It is, yeah.

Denise Stocker: I've seen that clients that way.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah.

Denise Stocker: I think that VMS technologies, some are going to continue to shine and I think some might get bought because they threaten those that are shining. So I do, I think there will be consolidation across the board.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. I love that prediction. That's an exciting one.

Denise Stocker: Well, we'll see if I'm right next year.

Christopher Dwyer: We'll have to do this again a year from now. And um. All right, so this is a fun question. We'll wrap here. Right. And, uh, I'm going to literally repeat what I asked you in, uh, the Green room before we started recording as a favorite holiday movie. And you joked that that some people don't consider it a holiday movie, but I agreed with you.

Denise Stocker: Yeah, it's controversial because Die Hard is by far my favorite holiday movie. It's the best. Can't wait for it again this year.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. Awesome. Um, what traditional holiday movie is your favorite?

Denise Stocker: Uh, It's a Wonderful Life.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. Another great answer.

Denise Stocker: Yeah, well, I live very close to Seneca Falls, which is the town that it's based on and where it was filmed. Yeah. Near and dear.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. Love it. Love it. Well, um, Denise Stocker, SVP of managed services at Talent, uh, Procure, it's been wonderful having you on the podcast and we look forward to doing this again with you real soon.

Denise Stocker: Thanks so much, Chris. Happy holidays to everybody.