Episode 602 - What's Happening in DE&I? With Deepak Singh

Speaker A: Support for today's podcast comes from Paradox.

Speaker B: Lauren, I've recently heard some crazy success stories when it comes to hiring with AI. FedEx is sending offers to candidates within 10 minutes. General Motors saved 2 million bucks in recruiting costs a year. Chipotle reduced time to hire from 12 days to 4 and 7. Eleven is saving their store leaders 40,000 hours per week.

Speaker A: Yes, Craig, the craziest thing is all of these companies did it by leveraging the same technology. Paradox acquired Ah, by Workday. In 2020, Paradox pioneered conversational hiring. Whether acting as your ATS or automating the hiring process on top of your existing hcm, um, Paradox streamlines the entire experience.

Speaker B: And if you're a workday customer, Paradox now operates seamlessly within the talent acquisition suite as the Workday Paradox candidate experience Agent.

Speaker A: Driven by 247 AI Assistant, Paradox can handle up to 95% of the hiring process for deskless hiring teams or just does automate specific time consuming tasks like screening, interview scheduling and onboarding to allow recruiters to focus on recruiting.

Speaker B: Paradox continues to help hundreds of the world's top employers simplify hiring and save money while creating great candidate experiences. Spend more time with people, not software. You can find out more by going to Paradox AI. That's Paradox AI.

Speaker A: And don't forget to tell them TARPOD sent you. Get ready. It's tar, uh, pod time. We talk talent recruitment and everything in between. So strap in and prepare yourself for a dose of knowledge tied up in a ribbon of, um, fun. Now, please join your hosts and industry leaders, Lauren Sharp and Craig Watson.

Speaker B: Hi, everyone, and welcome to tarpod. I'm Craig.

Speaker A: And I'm Lauren Craigo.

Speaker C: Hi.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You're going weird on me.

Speaker B: No, I am. Everyone who's listening knows that I am not the weird one.

Speaker A: I beg to differ. Uh, I beg to differ. But today's fabulous guest is an expert in culture and dni. So welcome Deepak Singh, who is also an ITIS judge.

Speaker B: Welcome, Deepak.

Speaker C: Thank you. Great to be here. And maybe I can be the weird one today.

Speaker B: So we'll test theory out.

Speaker A: Don't you worry about great competition, my friend.

Speaker B: Hey, Deepak, this is the first time you have been a guest on our Lizable podcast. So what we'd love to do is hear a little bit about your career story. So why don't you tell us, Deepak, how you started and how you got to where you are now?

Speaker C: Okay, I'll try to give the really abridged version, but simply, I started off my career in hospitality in hotels and spent probably about almost 15 years in front office management roles or moving to front office management roles, knowing the IOTA is coming up. I spent seven years at the Western Melbourne, which is just next door. Maybe eight years.

Speaker B: So we're staying there. Any tricks to getting up? Upgrade?

Speaker C: Let's talk later. Maybe I can do something. No promises though, which was lots of fun, lots of great work, lots of thinking on your feet, but most simply just solving problems through people. And that was one of those, you know, aha, ah moments that helped me find my feet in my, my current career, which is most simply hr, all things culture, which I've been in for another sort of 15 years. But I pivoted because most simply hospitality, it's shift work, ongoing shift work, lots of craziness and pay that's below the poverty line or it actually is. There wasn't a lot of sustainable future or uh, options there. So that idea of solving problems through people brought me to back to study. Doing a range of roles from startups, corporate, everything in between to consulting to doing some DEI work which I know we'll touch on later and then falling out of work, failing multiple times and starting my own business and almost starting it backwards, not through purpose but because I had no other option and loving it now, so really abridged, but that's me.

Speaker B: Wow, that's a great insight, isn't it, Lauren?

Speaker A: Little bit of a nutshell there, isn't it?

Speaker B: Nice and vulnerable. You're failing multiple times. That's good to hear people say that.

Speaker A: It is because like Craig and I, we talk about things like that quite often and we've both failed at things and built it up again and failed and you come back and the learning curves and I. One of the thing I enjoy working with Craig is the fact that we can both bounce ideas off each other where if he's failed at something as, oh, look, I've tried that once, this is my experience and same with me and we both bring different things to the table and help, which is great in that sense. And I have to say though, I was reading your LinkedIn profile and HR Influence Awards top 12 ANZ list for 2026.

Speaker C: Wow. Yeah.

Speaker A: Hashtag influencer. Next thing you'll be moving to Byron Bay.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or bar for selling travel pillows online for people and getting kickbacks and things.

Speaker C: I'm um, always up for paid collaboration. So if there's any travel pillow manufacturers out there,

Speaker B: that's amazing. M. Look, obviously you're all things culture. Uh, and with a DE and I bent as well and Interesting then, because I didn't know much about your background, but you talked about coming from hospitality and you would have seen culture at its best and worst probably in those sort of environments and got a lot of learnings from that. And we know that globally DE has been going through some massive changes over the last probably 18 months to two years. Are you seeing it at the moment? What if someone was to say to you what's going on in D? What? What would you say?

Speaker A: Before we tone that question in first, before we go, after you go globally on that answer, can you just tell us, like, obviously that Tangerine tyrant really fucking fucked it, to put it mildly. Yeah, Yeah. I don't think there are any other ways to say it.

Speaker C: Yeah, simply yes again.

Speaker B: Lauren, you've got a transit through the US in about a month and a half, don't you?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, forgot about that.

Speaker C: Instagram account.

Speaker A: All right, sorry. Deepak, please tell us how it's all been screwed.

Speaker C: Uh, I've almost forgot the question. No, like what's happening? Dei, uh, space, I think. Look, it's this double edged sword. It was ripe for the picking. A lot of what was happening beforehand was because it is the right thing to do and good. And the thing is right is a matter of opinion. But you're talking our tangerine friend, he thinks what he's doing is right. Yeah, well, I think what I might be trying to do is right. So write some out of opinion. So DEI for DEI sake, or inclusion for inclusion's sake, or even engagement of engagement sake, it means nothing, especially when the businesses are looking at dollars and cents. So all it should be about is great leadership. That's all we're trying to drive great leadership. How to manage your people properly, how to best represent your customer. If we start talking like that and having that focus then actually has meaning and becomes a lot harder to pull apart. So I think it was right for the picking. Obviously a few idiots came around and gave with a louder voice and pulled it apart, but I think is actually what was needed to make it more meaningful, make it a part of what we do rather than another thing we do. Because if you talk to most managers, oh, now I have to do this, now I have to do that. It's making it harder for them if we want our people to take it on board. It's just about great leadership, getting the best out of our people and best representing our customer. That's all it should be.

Speaker A: It's interesting, make it sound simple.

Speaker B: You do when something like this happens, when a Change happens. We always tend to see it gravitate. I'm not gonna say too far, but maybe almost to an extreme opposite of where it was. And that's a lot to take, isn't it? And there's obviously some vulnerable groups within our workforces and our cultures that might be looking at some of these changes and feel a bit scared or a bit apprehensive about the future.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, uh, don't doubt it. Look, I feel that way as well, like I'm sure a lot of us do. And maybe going macro and outside of the world of work, a lot of us are carrying a lot of weight.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And sometimes we don't realize it, whether what's happening in the world, what we see happening to others, sometimes feeling helplessness, helpless. And we're not really either talking about it or dealing with it. And we're carrying a lot of weight. And we don't actually always realize that affects everything. That stress, that unknown stress, that extra weight without trying to dry grace too

Speaker A: much in the fact that they won't do trade with people, they won't assist people or do uh, those types of things like to cut U.S. aid, uh, and things like that to try and help the world. They don't give a shit anymore, basically. So how has that landed and impacted uh, Australian boardrooms and businesses?

Speaker C: That's a big question. I think just looking from my personal experience, it's teaching us to divest. We are uh, so reliant on one or two economies, sources of truth, information, that it creates a point of failure. And when a country like the US says you can't do that, we're all pulled in. So I think it's teaching us to say we can't be reliant on one tool, one source of information, one economy that we have to be better at divesting and looking at other things globally. I think, especially for Australia, uh, we are part uh, of apac. There's such an opportunity there. The biggest economies in the world are centered so close to us and we have so much opportunity not just to do better in, in the region, but pull more of those western countries into the region and be almost this opportunity. But then you really micro level as humans, it also teaches us individuals that we also have to divest and not rely on maybe one source of income, one source of information, not one AI tool or whatever it is. We have to start thinking like that. So I think that's the best way I can answer that.

Speaker B: You've just mentioned AI culture in workplaces is often Good culture is often dependent on stability and bringing people in that keep adding to the culture along the way. And we're currently going through uh, a once in a generation or once in a 200 year change to the way we work in what AI is doing. How is that affecting culture?

Speaker C: How would I describe it? The way I'd probably say it is. Cultures right now is being over described but under operated. Okay, yeah, okay, there's something there. What I'm saying is businesses have love having these beautifully written values or something like an evp. That's this document. But there's no influence over uh, or no action around who gets promoted, what actually is being tolerated, how conflicts handled or even like how trade offs are made. And we're not training leaders to lead people, we're investing in all these tools or whatever else, but we're forgetting to the basics. Like how many managers now have gone from managing three people at shoulder to 13 people globally and they haven't been given the skills to do that. And then still going to, you see some of the businesses like the zeros and even culture amps locally where they're changing their models, where managers are leading maybe 20, 30, 50 people. How do you give people the skills to do that? I don't have skills to do that. And we're not teaching that. And that's the failure as well because the culture is not what you bring in, it's what you actually develop and create.

Speaker B: And even pathways to leadership have been affected because a lot of that middle part of businesses is being replaced by AI. So we've got some people who, when we have that, that brain drain of people who have had the leadership skill leaving the business, what are we doing next? So it's a bit scary.

Speaker C: Yeah. And that uh, just brain drain from the tools. Like I, look, I'm not pretending I don't use the tools they are uh, but they are tools. And really importantly I'm trying to still think.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because we outsource so much of our thinking, our decisioning. What do I do here? Yes, it's great to have that. But at the same time when we can't think and sometimes we have to think and often in work we have to think on our feet. We're creating so many more points of failure and not transferring those skills to that next generation, the next generation, that it's just going to, it's hopefully, you know, it's possibly creating this void.

Speaker A: Let's a very good point and uh, we often discuss these. The lack of critical think skills, thinking that is being replaced by AI. We've got a whole generation that's happening now in the last two years that is reliant on chat, GPT or an AI model to write things, do their homework, do this, do that. And we've also seen that in the past 20 years, a whole generation that's grown up on social media and the fallout from the that alone that we're now trying to deal with when they're in adulthood to now see what's going to happen, where is this going to take us and how is this going to affect culture and DNI within companies, community, all of these things. When people, uh. It frightens me.

Speaker C: It does, it does. And if you think of the sources of that information providing the answers in your AI tools, it's coming from social media sites, it's just often not coming from deep learning. So it's not always the best answers. We know that. And also there's that other way around where we've got large businesses with exec teams which are your standard pale mail and stale saying AI strategy, drive this, do this. But they also don't know how to use the tools. So it's more, what are we measuring, what are we doing? So it's this weird sort of thing that more AI, less AI and no one knows what they're doing. So everyone's just figuring out as they go. And we talk about AI strategy. Most places don't have it. What are we going to do? How are we going to use. How do we drive critical thinking or true collaboration with the tool so we can use it in an effective manner and not just at one point pull one answer and go with it and try and do something else?

Speaker A: Yeah. How do we overcome and create great culture and great inclusion in a company if we're being overrun and taught not to think?

Speaker C: It's a big question, isn't it? What came to mind immediately when you're just talking about that is back to intention, intentionality and meaningfulness. Let's go back to that debate. A lot of politics are still having bring everyone into the office. Everyone has to be present and seen and things like that. It's almost the same argument that we expect culture to happen every workplace relationship. It's a forced relationship and that's okay. But we have to create some meaning around it. If we're going to make people come in the office, use a tool or whatever it is, we have to create some intention out of it. What are we doing with it? What are we doing to create with its connection better Use some guidance on what to what we want as an output to then help people succeed. And it's back to that point around culture. Culture is not what you bring in, it's what you influence and create. It takes work and we've got to put in the work. And that's what I'm not seeing. Whether it's leadership or, you know, using the tools, we're not putting the work to develop people and get better ourselves.

Speaker B: Really interesting. We've had people on the podcast recently who have either seen firsthand or witnessed elsewhere the way we work. Changing that. Uh, let's say there was a team of. It doesn't matter what company it was or is. Let's say there's a team of 30 people and over the next year or two years or three years, that might change to a team of 20 people and 10 agents doing the same work.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, now those 10 agents who are replacing 10 people, what's that doing to culture? Given that what we're replacing them with is cultureless, emotionless faults.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And does that mean that it becomes more incumbent and more. There's more responsibility with the leadership to continue to drive the culture? Uh, it's just like I keep saying, we're in this change and I don't think anyone's got the real answers, but we'd like to get some posts, wouldn't we?

Speaker C: It's that, uh, as a HR leader and I'm thinking putting my own hat on here, it's what is the cost of our workforce? Firstly, a lot of us aren't good at that with our people. Whether it's having a contingent workforce, people on ERs across countries, very few teams know what is the true cost to workforce? Oh, we've got these group of people in the Philippines this year. But what's the on cost? What's the tax? What's everything we're actually paying for that employee? And it's the same with our, uh, tools and agents. We've got all these things. What's the cost of that? I don't really know. And how are we measuring performance? And what are we doing is actually the performance of our agents not where it needs to be. How are we managing that? I don't know. I haven't thought about that. So, yes, I know this is a part of work and possibly the future of work, but once again, what are we doing to manage, uh, not just our people, but our agents, our tools, things like that, to get the best. And to your point, it is another weight that people are carrying. Oh shit, I am being replaced by a robot. What am I going to do about it? That's another weight people are carrying and sometimes once again they don't realize it. So it's just more pressure upon pressure where we're starting to see people break. Things break things go in really negative directions.

Speaker B: Hey, maybe let's change the emotion here a little bit. Lauren mentioned earlier that you're a, ah, judge at the ITAs and you're judging the Excellence in De and I award without giving away anything. What was your overall feeling of the submissions?

Speaker C: Actually I was so pleasantly surprised I didn't know what to expect. This is the first time judging and seeing the quality of the submissions. I, uh, was absolutely blown away. The detail, the practicality, the actual concrete examples. And it wasn't this sort of one page type thing. It was proper presentation. People put in hours upon hours. Absolutely blown away just in the high quality of the finalists and what was put forward that in itself. I just spent hours just reading and just going, wow, I need to use some of this.

Speaker B: It's interesting because I think that when the ITAs are one and done every year and we chat to uh, a lot of the winners on the podcast afterwards. And Lauren, I'm sure you'll agree that a lot of the time when we speak to the winner of this award, it's the one where we get most blown away with what they're doing because the programs are human led and really finding ways to be more and more inclusive. And some of them are so incredibly, yeah, innovative in what they're doing and the commitment to getting the program up and running and then see it through to outcome. It's just, it's something that we always walk away with those sort of interviews with a smile on our face and we get a lot of feedback from people who listen, who say, oh my God, can we, can you get me in touch with this person? Because we want to try to bring something into our business. So uh, it's a really strong way to show culture too, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah. And uh, that's across all the categories that I had the privilege of being able to judge a couple of categories and just seeing the work that people are doing, absolutely amazing. There's so much inspiration there that uh, regardless of what the outcome of the awards are and who wins, who doesn't, just the quality of what people are doing just needs to be celebrated and it's really exciting. And that's. We went down this almost negative path of what's wrong with the world and workplaces. But there's so much to celebrate. And this is just a great example of what, what you can celebrate and some really tangible things of what people are doing, what they're achieving, and what they're proud to share.

Speaker A: Quite often, uh, when talking to entrants and finalists and things like that, they. How is the process that they said we. Not just about if we win or lose, but having to write all of that down and reflect on what we've done in the past 12 months, 18 months to put into an entry and to see what we've actually achieved and how, how great we've done things. And even if we don't win, to actually have that summarized and take that back to the team and to our leaders is an achievement in itself. And I find that some of the things, it reminds us that we are in a people business. We deal with people. We are all about people. And that is at the core of what we do. And I think, uh, inclusion and diversity should just come naturally into that.

Speaker C: Exactly as I said before, make it a part of what we do rather than this another thing to do, this sort of side project. This is all about great leadership and celebrating each other. Really.

Speaker A: It is. And as a podcast, I listen to Inclusion Bites, and that is a fantastic podcast with Joanne Lockwood. And that is an incredibly good podcast that covers so much. It's diverse in its diversity. So that is a really great one. And Jo's story as a trans woman and bringing all of that knowledge and experience into it herself is just. It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. And I think that's something that. That particular community really do cop it a lot and they shouldn't. And I just think people just need to be kind.

Speaker C: Yeah. Kind. And, um, simply, it doesn't affect me. No. Why would I try to make someone else's life worse? That's. If I could try to make my life better, I might as well try and help other people make their life better too.

Speaker A: I know. And one of the things I find too, here in Australia, uh, about our DNI Award. So many people bring shining lights onto communities I would never have even thought of.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is interesting that some of the. I think last year we had a joint winner and they were from very different. Their programs were so incredibly different, yet obviously helping. But we, I think we came away with that thinking there are so many. We look under the umbrella of DE and I. There's so many minority groups that it's really difficult to cover everything. But if you put a lens of being a Nice person, over the top of it. It help helps you cover everything.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So what are some practical tips and knowledge you can share with our listeners about a DNI program that's not just inclusive and covers all of those tick box things, but actually works?

Speaker B: Do you know what she always does, Deepak? She always throws in a question without notice. I'm going, I saw your face thinking, what the, what the fuck would that question come from?

Speaker C: I think, look, firstly, know what you're doing. Firstly, diversity is just the outcome. Diversity is just the stat at the end. Don't target diversity. Look at inclusive leadership and equitable practices. They're the inputs. The more you do work around that, the more you get the diversity, you get the outcomes, and you have programs that better support a wider range of people and communities, and people in communities, you won't always know or be. You obviously think, oh, I didn't know I was supporting this or affecting this, this. So I think importantly, think of that. Also know that all things, diversity, a lot of it's not visible. Yes, there's things you can see physically, things like that, age, gender, whatever else it is, even that you can't always see, but there's a lot under the surface. So we have to remember just because someone, maybe I use that example, pale male and stale, before we think they're extra privileged, whatever else. And yes, they may be, but at the same time they've got their own story. And not, once again, very few people are thriving. Everyone's got their own story, their own struggles. So really importantly, come at it with that lens.

Speaker B: Deepak, I've noticed throughout this discussion today you bring it back quite often to leadership. So in terms of driving culture, obviously leadership's important. Uh, how do we get our leaders to embrace this? Like you said, there's no real training for it. So how, how do they become good cultural leaders?

Speaker C: I think most simply as leaders, we can't expect everyone to bend to our will and our style. What we can control is ourselves. So to get the best out of others, our people, our customers, whoever we need to influence, only thing we can control is ourselves. So we can flex our style. And that's what makes us great humans, our ability to flex and adjust. So as leaders, if we flex our style, we get the best of everyone around us and we end up winning and we look good, whether it's to exec, board, whatever else we achieve. So just simply as that, know that yes, we want to achieve something, but to get there, we need to flex our style, um, to get the Best out of others.

Speaker A: That's actually a good point.

Speaker B: I was going to flex their style. Lauren's going to flex her style all over the place. Moving forward.

Speaker A: Better warm up so I don't pull a muscle.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I have very little sex in my life this time days.

Speaker A: So I just find every time I talk to you I walk away going, wow, so many nuggets here.

Speaker B: You were saying too early on, Lauren, that you're really impressed by Deepak's Instagram stuff.

Speaker A: Oh, I love his.

Speaker B: Should people be following him?

Speaker C: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker B: What's your handle Deepak?

Speaker C: I've got two. I've got my personal but don't want to go there. People don't want to go there just yet but I've m got my. Should I say professional. It's not professional with some work related. It's I think think it's helped me adjusting out. Adjusting. That's just one of the services I offer. Yes, I do HR services to business but I do work for individuals. So what I call it's pre legal workplace coaching. A lot of us go through shitty experiences at work and don't know who to talk to. I've got a Instagram with that and it's normally just me posting workplace memes.

Speaker B: Beautiful. We all need a meme. A meme a day keeps a doctor away.

Speaker A: I follow you and you post some incredibly great, great stuff around diversity and I often share it on because it just, it resonates with me and I think it resonates with the way the world is feeling at the moment and it brings a little bit of light and a little bit of knowledge to other people that and it cuts through some of the B.S. i'll be honest. It really does.

Speaker C: And sometimes that's all we can do is sometimes we do feel a little bit ah, powerless or it's important to. It's a small little piece but it's a bit of sharing a voice to say it's important that we have one. One. And if it's important to me then what's the worst that's going to happen? I get canceled. Who cares?

Speaker A: I know. I think you get to the point where you just have no more to give and I'm at that point now. I think totally the worst thing that's going to happen to me is I may not get let into the U.S.

Speaker B: hey mate, we'll never cancel you except right now. It's the end of the our time today. But thanks so much for joining us. We can't wait to see you at the items and congratulate the winners and celebrate the finalists as well. And on that note, everyone, it's a goodbye for me and a good bye from me.

Speaker C: And thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Support for today's podcast comes from Paradox.

Speaker C: Lauren.

Speaker B: I've recently heard some crazy success stories when it comes to hiring with AI. FedEx is sending office to candidates within 10 minutes. General Motors save 2 million bucks in recruiting costs a year. Chipotle reduced time to hire from 12 days to 4 and 7. Eleven is saving their store leaders 40,000 hours per week.

Speaker A: Yes, Craig, the craziest thing is all of these companies did it by leveraging the same technology. Paradox acquired by Workday in 2025, Paradox pioneered conversational hiring. Whether acting as your ATS or automating the hiring process on top of your existing hcm, um, Paradox streamlines the entire experience.

Speaker B: And if you're a workday customer, Paradox now operates seamlessly within the Talent Acquisition suite as the Workday Paradox candidate Experience agent.

Speaker A: Driven by 24.7A assistant, Paradox can handle up to 95% of the hiring process for deskless hiring teams or just automate specific time consuming tasks like screening, interview scheduling and onboarding to allow recruiters to focus on recruiting.

Speaker B: Paradox continues to help hundreds of the world's top employers simplify hiring and save money while creating great candidate experiences. Spend more time with people, not software. You can find out more by going to Paradox AI. That's Paradox AI.

Speaker A: And go forget to tell them Tarpon sent you. Thanks for listening to Tarpod and please don't forget to subscribe and make sure you listen to the outtakes at the end of the episode. They're usually the best bit. And I said to Craig yesterday and to Bonnie, I had my first iter's nightmare Sunday night.

Speaker C: Oh, what do you mean, oh?

Speaker A: I have them every year, don't I Craig?

Speaker B: Yeah, she's. She. It's a. She wears this event very closely, emotionally

Speaker A: does our Lawrence that month leading into it, because I like Craig, does all the judging stuff and he handles all of the lighting and that's really Craig's thing and he's really good at it and all the slides and that. But I'm the one who's got all of the event planning, the menus, the table settings, the allocation of tables. It's like planning a wedding for 400 people every year. I lost my shit the first year about something and then this. That was the first time I've lost my shit. Otherwise I feel like, yeah, I've got this, I've done it 100 times before I can do it.

Speaker B: This year will be an easy. There'll be a breeze this year.

Speaker A: Last year I forgot my shoes.

Speaker B: Yeah, she forgot her shoes.

Speaker A: I was that stressed out over the ticketing issue and getting into the building, I left my shoes on the floor in my walk in robe. I'm upstairs getting dressed next door at the hotel going, I'm wearing Birkenstocks to the iters. You throw freaking corkers at me just to stir me up. Cuz you're a prick.

Speaker B: It's my job.