Episode 813: A Conversation with Lori Hock, CEO of Opptly

Christopher Dwyer: Welcome to another all new edition of the Future of Work Exchange podcast. As always, my name is Christopher Dwyer, SVP Research at Ardent Partners, and your host. We are joined by the amazing, legendary. There. There's so many different words Lori, we could use to describe you. Thank you, Covopoly. Ms. Lori Hawke. Lori, welcome.

Lori Hock: Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Christopher Dwyer: I think it's about time we've done this right. We've been talking about it for.

Lori Hock: Yes.

Christopher Dwyer: And as you can see, we are in the holiday spirit. Lori's wearing green, we have a Christmas tree behind us and, um, really excited to wrap up this year Future of Work Exchange podcast with Lori, someone we've been trying to schedule for quite some time. And uh, Lori, really looking forward to tapping into your vast expertise and knowledge. So before we get into all of my very in depth questions about all things related to our industry, would love to hear more about your background.

Lori Hock: Uh, I didn't even know about the industry when I got here. It was like just a total fluke that I fell into it. I think that's true of lots of people though, in our space.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, it really is.

Lori Hock: And um, you know, every time I thought about moving on, something pulls you back in. You know, I think it's one of the only industries where you can really be exposed to every other industry and there's like endless learning opportunities. Right. And then you realize that our industry really makes a meaningful impact on every other. When you think about talent as the greatest asset of any company. Right. Um, throughout my career, I mean, I was in staffing for a long time. I had the great opportunity of building, um, MSP organization for adeco, um, in the middle there, I built SHED Services, led a team that built SHED Services for scaling onto RPO and whatnot. I think that during my career I realized that I really liked to build things, push boundaries, doing I guess, the uncomfortable a little bit. Right. That would affect positive change in our space. And I love to work with the people that love to do that too fortunate to work on all sides of the space. Staffing for professional in general started as a recruiter. So like, I really understand, like the foundation of it, msp, rpo, uh, you know, most, most facets of our space, if you will. Which I guess makes me uniquely qualified to take apli. An AI or uh, you know, an AI solution and help our clients understand how they may use it to accelerate their TAL strategies on all sides of that.

Christopher Dwyer: And you know what's funny, Lori? What I was going to Say, sorry, interrupt. I think one thing you said is, like, as you've gotten further and further in your career, you have that more of a desire to. To change and do more progressive things. And you don't see that in a lot of executive leaders today. Right. It's more making lateral moves. Like, you've went from staffing, msp, rpo, to perhaps the most powerful and transformative technology in our space today, which I think is pretty incredible for someone who's spent decades in a care and decades of your career in this space, as you've said.

Lori Hock: I think that's true, too. I mean, I just feel so fortunate. I didn't know Evopoli at the time, um, met the owners, who are incredible and just exceptionally supportive of what we're doing. I called a mentor friend in the space and said, you know, I have this or I have that. And he said to me, you know, you've always done, like, the progressive thing. Why would you stop now? Like, go to tech.

Christopher Dwyer: Right?

Lori Hock: That's where the future is. And it reminded me that, you know, I like to build things and, you know, I like to be a little uncomfortable. So. And I had the opportunity to build a team. They're awesome people and just truly talented and well known and recognized in the industry, and we all bring a little bit of something different to the table, and I think it's really complimentary. So I just feel so fortunate. And, you know, I believe in what we're doing and I believe in the power of AI blended with the right human wrapper. Right. Um, to make sure the experience is good and that the clients can trust. And, you know, they. We really own the judgment as the people in the process. So, yeah, I'm just super excited. And the best is yet to come in terms of, like, what AI can do with better education, more understanding, and a better alignment with strategy, I think.

Christopher Dwyer: And Laura, I mean, I. I didn't want to start right off with so many questions about Opoli, because, again, you have so much expertise. But, um, you know, I remember someone asking me about a year and a half ago, like, oh, what's the deal with Oplee? Right? You know, it's just another AI company and. And, you know, there's a lot of AI fluff in our space. We're not here to name names or anything, but, like, one thing I always say about you and the team and what the work you're doing at Apoli is, I. And this isn't a professional term at all, it's real deal AI. That's that's the way I'm describing that though.

Lori Hock: I'm going to make it a charm.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. Yeah, let's do that. Uh, but seriously though, like, all joking aside, like it's. The AI at OPOLI is powerful. It's doing very progressive things. Um, if I were in your position, I'd be nothing but excited about the future, about not just the evolution of AI, but how AI is impacting all facets of our shared industry.

Lori Hock: I think that's true. I believe in all of that, all my heart. I, um, and I think we're starting to gain momentum about it's here. It impacts all these things in my life. It's also going to impact this. Right. It's also going to impact talent. And I have to figure out what my use case is, like what problems I trying to solve and then get educated about what the right AI is to solve that problem. Right. We talked a little bit on the panel that we had a couple weeks ago that there is this idea of generative AI and large language models. And it's all good and it solves a lot of problems and they do good things. Um, and then there's this idea of purpose built small language models. And what I mean by small is not volume small, but really solving precise specific problems. And that AI is also necessary in the continuum of talent strategies. Right. And I think the fun thing is helping our clients understand which one solves which problem. So I think use cases are the best way to get people involved and engaged and understanding how to leverage AI, um, in the most positive way.

Christopher Dwyer: So just want to pivot a little bit because the reason that you and I were introduced years ago was the fact that obviously OPLI is one of the major market leading players in direct sourcing technology as well. And so you and I have both seen firsthand the evolution of direct sourcing. You know, where it's been, where it is now, where it's going. I do have something interesting I want to bring up that, uh, you and I talked about offline, but I think at a very high level. Where do you see direct sourcing today? Where should it be? And not the question of where it's going to go, but where should it be.

Lori Hock: Yeah. Um, you know, I think direct sourcing is another strategic talent, another strategic channel to find appropriate talent. Originally meant to leverage known talents, silver medalists, that kind of thing. Right. Who are already engaged and interested in your brand. We, as a direct sourcing tech partner, would leverage the brand elements to reengage existing talent, to engage new talent. But success is really best positioned when the talent community matches the problem you're trying to solve. And that's where the advisory kind of comes in. Right? Because if those two are mixed and matched then success is going to be difficult to achieve. So what we like to do is make sure that we understand the problem they're trying to solve, that we give them insight into the market, insight into their talent community and make sure that those two meet. Right. Um, um. I think it originally started with high volume and repeatable roles, which I think is a definitely a good place to use direct sourcing, especially when cost savings is the number one goal. But it's not the only place, right? It really all depends on that use case and that problem you're trying to solve. And, and many are, many are getting it right. They're using it for high end stuff specific to marketing or communications or that kind of thing. Um, or they're using it in their high volume repeatable roles. A lot of the DS tech, um, I think they're expecting us to bring supplemental talent um, to help enhance their talent community to make it more successful. But I think that step back, that advisory just to make sure that what they're thinking about doing is actually going to give them the outcome that they expect. So I think it's progressing to be more sophisticated potentially. But you almost have to like step back to go forward. And this is a really strategic thing, right? It's not just another talent channel in your talent acquisition strategy. It is a, in my mind it's very strategic, right? It's leadership level. So just you know, and then you balance that, that expectation with your, with your outcomes and you iterate as you need to

Christopher Dwyer: you call. Direct sourcing is also another channel of talent. I've used the phrase omnichannel talent acquisition many times but thinking of where our space is, where there's contingent full time recruitment, uh, direct sourcing. AI businesses need more than just the tech components, you know, especially within direct sourcing they need that additional voice and guidance from a partner like Apoli to help guide them. Um, and I think it's very interesting you're talking about that because it's, it's shades of where MSP was and I think it brings more strategic impact to where direct sourcing technology can be.

Lori Hock: I think it expands the horizons, right, because there's multiple channels that you can use direct sourcing for. So I actually think it's, I think it's a benefit to the client and to us. Right, to measure um, success based on outcomes yeah. And that's really, that's the goal. Measures of success against the outcomes and iterate as you need to. Right. So that's the goal and that's advisory. Not only at the beginning, but that relationship. Right, that relationship and the responsibility to making sure that we all stay on track. Right. That's everybody's responsibility. So relationship management is a human thing. Right. So we need to make sure that we stay in connection with what they're trying to accomplish. And then you start to find these gaps between what you're doing and what you need to accomplish as a strategic goal, like your business objectives. And it helps everyone stay aligned with that, potential fluctuations. So yeah, I enjoy that part of the process.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. I know I have something for you later on. Um, your outlook for next year, but maybe a sneak peek of that just outlook for direct sourcing next year. You know, where do you see adoption? Where do you see, you know, maybe the, you know, the, the buying community, you know, do they better understand it? I mean, I know that's always one issue that a lot of solutions in our space have, right. Is the true understanding of what direct sourcing can do. Um, you know, we're definitely not in that realm of total talent where like, not a lot of people really understand what it is. But direct sourcing, it's like I feel like I've been telling the same story for five or six years now and there's still some very large scale enterprises that don't quite understand how it can work and what the benefits are. So where do you see direct sourcing next year?

Lori Hock: I actually think that people are going to get much more, um, creative about direct sourcing. I think you'll see some direct sourcing to, from referrals, you know, referral communities, especially as you get more broad about what skill sets you're willing to do direct sourcing with. Um, I really think that direct sourcing can be a very strategic part of your talent acquisition process. Again, you just have to know the problem you're trying to solve. So I think it's here to stay. I think activity is actually, I'm seeing a little bit of an uptick. I think that's good. So it's not going to be just for high volume anymore. I think we're seeing people get real creative about the talent pools that they're willing to use to solve specific problems, regardless of the talent, regardless of the skill set, by leveraging that direct access. Right. So yeah, I'm, I'm positive about direct sourcing being one of the many Solutions that one of the many solutions that oh can bring.

Christopher Dwyer: So obviously you say the word op Li. What's the first phrase that comes to mind is AI, of course. So Laurie, we've entered that part of the discussion where we really deep dive on AI. So um, I first want to just get your general thoughts right because I do think that, you know, you look at where again, the buying community is. You look at your TA or HR practitioners. Right? There's a lot of. I don't know how to keep up with the hype of AI. Right. So my first question around AI for you is where do you see like the true adoption happening and maybe where does that go next year? And then I think we can deep dive into like the more fun topics around, you know, skills based hiring and all of that.

Lori Hock: So just generally with AI. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that AI is here to stay and I think people understand that.

Christopher Dwyer: Mhm.

Lori Hock: I think it's really about where do I leverage it, what are the right places, where do I start? You know, the concept of progress over perfection. And I think people are a bit nervous about the fact that um, it'll be hard to catch up if you don't get in. Right. Understand, get educated. Eventually there is, there's a place where the gap between the laggers and the leaders are going to be bigger than anything we've ever done. M. So I think delaying the inevitable is a big mistake and people should just get in the game and get. And get your feet wet. Right. Pick something small that you solve with AI of any kind of pick another and another. Right. And piece that chain together. Definitely progress over perfection. I've been saying it for a long time. I just got to get in.

Christopher Dwyer: You said, you said it two weeks ago. Right. I think I asked you a very similar question.

Lori Hock: I'm a big believer it's not going anywhere. And I listen. I think people want to work for companies that are progressive. So if nothing else, you have to do it. Right. Because I want to work for companies that are modern and progressive and using technology in a way that is, that is, you know, looking forward, not backwards. And so I don't, I don't think there's a choice but to engage. How you engage is the question, not if.

Christopher Dwyer: And so. All right, going a little bit deeper. Right. Because I know this is something that we've, we are both very passionate about. One of the things that for me, the first time I saw Opoli in action, being able to build a true living, breathing skills taxonomy. One of the things that immediately kind of sprang to life in my mind was, all right, we talk about skills based hiring. This truly enables it. Right? So. So I, uh, love commentary around where you see opoly's, you know, skills taxonomy enablement right. In our industry. And how powerful is that when companies are looking to build a true skills based hiring strategy?

Lori Hock: Yeah, I think that, you know, when you, when you're talking about skills taxonomies, it's really about like the, so what, like, what do I do with it?

Christopher Dwyer: Right?

Lori Hock: So I think AI makes having a skill taxonomy that's relevant to the market actionable, right? But then you have to take that and say, how do I mobilize this talent, these skills to create a value proposition, right. How do I incorporate it into my talent strategy and in the most valuable way? And how do I capture the goodness of that, whether that be ROI or, you know, tenure or retention or whatever the case may be, Right? So I think that skills taxonomy is the foundation of any skills based hiring program. I actually think it doesn't matter. It is the foundation of hiring, period. Right. If you don't understand your, your taxonomy, then how do you proceed? Like, when you think about it that simply, it's kind of like, I don't know, I don't know how I did this before. Right? So, um, I think that it's. No one would argue that it's foundational AI can get you there. You just have to know what you want to do with it next and you have to follow through. So this is what I mean about, you know, HR and talent acquisition being at the table, right. Really making decisions, driving strategy, um, in a way that maybe they haven't in the recent past. So, you know, that's where skills taxonomy is, Right. We can give you one quickly. It'll be accurate, it'll be market relevant, but then you have to actually take it and implement it in a way that makes sense. Right? And use it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And use it.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah.

Lori Hock: And you don't have to eat that whole elephant at the same time either, Right. You can appreciate, you know, some kind of phasing, if you will, on that.

Christopher Dwyer: So let me ask you this, right? It's again, I've called OPLI Real Deal AI and I do mean that. Right.

Lori Hock: Appreciate that, thank you.

Christopher Dwyer: Um, where do you, if, if someone asks you, like, all right, Lori, Olli is an AI company. How is it differentiated from other AI and the talent tech ecosystem? Right. How do you answer that?

Lori Hock: Yeah, I mean, listen, I see opli's differentiation the same way I see the outlook. Right. Um, we're always like ahead of the game in terms of how we're positioning, what we're thinking about, why we're thinking about it. So. And I think the fact that we're purpose built, you know, is really the truest differentiator. Right? So we talked about the difference between generative AI and large language models. And you know, generally speaking, in a small language model that is serving specific problems, purpose built means that we have this unique, um, um, opportunity to build cool things along the way. Right? To be nimble, to be flexible, to adjust the market, um, but still stay in our lane about the problems that we're trying to solve. And um, we advance quicker as a result of that. And we're a little bit more nimble to what's going on in the market. Whether or not that's client specific or an industry specific thing, whatever it is. Um, um, I think that generally is what sets oddly apart. We also have a talent community that we share with our clients and um, we fill that talent community with demand of today, historical demand. What's hot, you know, in the market? What's going to be hot in the market. So I feel like, um, we share that goodness and that serves two purposes, right? We're always training our AI to solve the problems that our AI solves. Um, that's very specific to us. But we also share that talent with others and duplicate those efforts so that they also get to keep that talent community. So they're building this asset with us. Um, and I think that's really meaningful.

Christopher Dwyer: So let me ask you another question too. I mean this kind of. We're looking a little bit forward here, but um, where do you see AI within talent tech evolving next year? Not just opli, but AI in general. Right. Uh, uh, from where I sit, right. I frequently get the questions from heads of CW programs, external workforce leaders, HROs, even chief people officers, and they ask me, like Chris Weir, what is the next step for AI in talentech? Right. Is it doubling down on process efficiency? Right. Whether it's candid experience or onboarding or workflows? Or does AI do something that's much more transcendent? Right. I mean, look at AI in our space. Where does it go next year and maybe even a little bit more into the future?

Lori Hock: I think that, I don't think anyone argue that the front end of our recruiting process is going to be largely autonomous. And that includes, you know, chat and generative and purpose built and all of the things. Right. All of, all of those things. That are very repeatable. Right. Processes that you can count on. I think that what we have to do first though is make sure that before you leverage all the AI across the process that your business processes are sound, that they are what you want them to be, that they're current. Right. And that's an important feature to make A.I. uh, work. Right. So if you want to be effective and efficient, your business processes have to be sound and then you build the AI into it. So it's almost like you have to like take a pause for a second look at your business process and say, when was the last time we reflected on this business process and does it accurately depict what we actually do? Right. So and then you can take AI and you can plug and play along the way with all of the various components that you have. Over time that becomes largely autonomous on the front end. And it will be um, more autonomous for some skills than others potentially, but nonetheless. And then you have the human process, right, where it's about the experience. And the experience is so important, right? The candidate, the client experience, that relationship management, all the opportunities that it affords to human in the process to better the relationship, you know, be more ingrained in the strategy with the company and um, really be progressive about how you move it forward. So I think the time that it takes to do that hasn't been afforded because we're all doing those transactional things on the front end. So I think there's like just a giant opportunity for everyone being uplifted in the process. You know, we used to talk about the rising tide lifts all boats. I believe that to be true. I think that, I think that once you do your homework, you get business process in place, you implement AI in the right places, you use the people in a way that lifts them up. Uh, I think the rising tide is here.

Christopher Dwyer: Mhm, it's here. We've been talking about that for a couple of years. So it's good to. I love, I love the feedback. Um, all right, so before we wrap up, right, I have like a multifaceted question. It's not just what your outlook for 2026 is, right. But in general our market. Right. Staffing, recruitment, you know, talent. How does next year look in terms

Lori Hock: of all of it? I think that, uh, well, I think AI will, will allow. I think skills based hiring. Let's get more specific. I think skills based hiring is going to allow for done right as a intelligence layer that sits on all of the other technologies can accelerate regardless of how the person is classified for work leveraging skills across a total talent view.

Christopher Dwyer: Mhm.

Lori Hock: In a way that we haven't been able to do before. M. So the AI is an accelerant based on the fact that as an intelligence layer to evaluate skills. Talk about it that way for a second. You know, regardless of how that person wants to be classified or is classified, they are connected to the work and then, then flows down to the appropriate system of record, if you will. Right. But the system of record doesn't drive the fact that, you know, they have the skills to do the job. Um, in fact, MBO recently had an article out that said that AI is accelerating the shift towards project based work skills, focused work. And I think that's absolutely right. Yeah. So I've been saying for a bit now that I think total talent is a bit of a trendy conference term. And um, I think I'm going to be proven wrong because I think that, well, maybe it was for a while, but I think there's a real opportunity here to leverage AI and blending skills across a network of talent, whether or not that's full time or contingent or independent workers of any kind. So I think that's an exciting opportunity.

Christopher Dwyer: Maybe it took AI for us to say that total talent could be a reality. It just took.

Lori Hock: It could have. I mean, maybe there wasn't a way, uh, it took a long time but I mean maybe there just wasn't a manner to do that in a overarching way from a skills perspective. Right. But we have to remember that skills based hiring is not just a, uh, it's not just a process, it's an operating model. Right. So you really have to adapt it. And when I. And it's really, we cannot be overlooked. We have to, you have to, at a high level, a leadership level, embrace it. Like the tone at the top has to be, this is our future. Um, and I, and I. It just has to be that way because there will be iterative ways to get there. And you have to be transparent in how you talk about it. And I'm um, a big believer that if you say nothing, everyone makes up their own story. So if there's like a little bit of nerves about what am I going to do in this, you know, story. Right. Am I at risk? If you don't tell them what's going to happen, you don't have a plan for what's going to happen, then they'll make up this their own story and it's never as good as the one that you want to tell them. So I think the whole Thing requires like tone at the top to be embracing this modern way of moving talent strategies forward. And remember that people want to work in a modern environment.

Christopher Dwyer: So with that being said, business related question here, what else do you see happening next year? You know, I don't say crystal ball, but I mean, any predictions, you know, any. Anything else that you feel is big and coming in 2026?

Lori Hock: I actually think the total talent thing is a big thing because I think it moves us all forward much more quickly. I think the additional, the, uh, like I said, the addition of purpose built models is going to be interesting. I think the bias auditing and the compliance stuff is going to become table stakes and it's going to be a built in operating standard. We have long, oddly has long stood in front of that, subjecting ourselves to bias auditing, doing all of the, you know, SOC compliance and whatnot.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah.

Lori Hock: But I think the scrutiny around that is going to get fierce and it should. So, you know, that's going to be, that's definitely going to be a thing. It already is, but it's just, it's going to get more intense, I believe.

Christopher Dwyer: Damn.

Lori Hock: And you know, the future of talent is, you know, powered by AI and defined by people.

Christopher Dwyer: Harkens back to your. The quote we just published on the future of Works Exchange. Yeah.

Lori Hock: Uh, it's a good one.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, it's a great one.

Lori Hock: Right.

Christopher Dwyer: So, Lori Hawk, CEO of OP Lee, before we let you go, have to ask you, what's your favorite holiday movie?

Lori Hock: Oh, I mean, the Grinch. All of them.

Christopher Dwyer: All of them. Love it. I love it. Well, Lori, this was long overdue, right? Uh, yeah.

Lori Hock: Thank you for having me. It was really fun.

Christopher Dwyer: It was a fun conversation. Um, Lori Hawk, CEO of Opoli, thank you again for taking the time to hang out with us here on the Future of Work Exchange podcast.

Lori Hock: Thank you for having me. Happy holidays.

Christopher Dwyer: Thank you.