Episode 812: A Conversation with Jen Torney (Talent Solutions TAPFIN) and Brian Hoffmeyer (Beeline)

Christopher Dwyer: Welcome to another all, uh, new edition of the Future of Work Exchange podcast. As always, my name is Christopher Dwyer, SVP of Research at Arden Partners, also the Managing Director of the Future of Work Exchange and the host of said podcast. I think this may be my favorite time of year. Not just because of the holidays, but because of my two very good friends here today. A tradition that goes back, what, seven or eight years now?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Something like that.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah. Uh, it really is a, um, wonderful holiday tradition here. Thrilled to be joined by Jen Tourney, Global Leader Solutions at Talent Solutions. Tap Fin. Jen, always good to see you.

Jen Torney: Thanks, Chris. Great to be here.

Christopher Dwyer: And of course, Mr. Brian Hoffmeier, SVP of Market Strategies at Beeline 2. Uh, folks that are no strangers here to the Future of Work Exchange podcast.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Love it.

Jen Torney: Or a stranger to sparkles.

Christopher Dwyer: So, hey, I had to be.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I had to be festive. You know, it's. It's that time of year. You don't get to wear this that often.

Christopher Dwyer: No, especially too when you work remotely. Like, I feel like.

Jen Torney: Yeah. You know, gives you a little judge.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah. Uh, you get to bust that out from time to time.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I wore it for a party on Saturday. I'll probably find another occasion to break it out.

Jen Torney: Got a couple weeks.

Christopher Dwyer: See, I could picture Hoff just wearing that to bed at night.

Brian Hoffmeyer: That's. I mean, I don't know if you know this, but sequins are not all that comfortable.

Jen Torney: No, but you might do it anyway.

Christopher Dwyer: I can picture Ash being like, brian,

Brian Hoffmeyer: what are you doing?

Jen Torney: Just.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, I mean, she says that pretty frequently, actually.

Christopher Dwyer: I can. I can only imagine. Yeah. And to give everyone just a hint of how this conversation is going to go today, we did get into a little. Little argument about whether cookie butter is for real or not. Right.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Well, it's real. It's just not butter.

Jen Torney: It's not Nutella.

Christopher Dwyer: I mean, it's not Nutella.

Jen Torney: I like the cookies that the cookie butter comes from better than the cookie butter.

Christopher Dwyer: I love you, but I'm gonna disagree with you there.

Jen Torney: Uh, really? You like the butter?

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, I love the butter.

Jen Torney: Okay.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah. Like, I've made.

Jen Torney: Do you like apple butter?

Christopher Dwyer: Say again?

Jen Torney: Is apple butter a jam or is it a butter? That's where I'm confused because really, apple butter is kind of more like a spread, like a fruit.

Christopher Dwyer: It's like a fiber. Apple butter is the total talent of

Brian Hoffmeyer: the, like, jams and jellies world. Right. It's the combination of everything. Is that right?

Jen Torney: It's the bridge between spread and. That's, uh, all right, we're off to a really good start.

Brian Hoffmeyer: We are.

Christopher Dwyer: So, again, you two are world famous in our industry, but of course it can't hurt to do some interest in background. Mrs. Torny, why don't you kick us off?

Jen Torney: Sure. Background. Well, let's see. So I've been with Tat Finn for, gosh, almost 17 years. I've been saying 16 for a while. It's almost about 17. And am, um, really fortunate to work with a really great team. I sit in Charlotte, North Carolina, and I am responsible for a number of global functions, product strategy, solutions, design, our global partnership framework, which includes tech partners like our friends at Beeline. And we were talking about OPLI as well and many others. And then of course, this new function that we have invested in called strategic sourcing advisory, which I'm really excited about, I think will elevate what we do in the space. So that's a little bit more about me and what I do at Tap.

Christopher Dwyer: Jen, welcome. Hoff. We're gonna call you Hoff throughout today.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, perfect. That's totally fine. Um, I am, uh, Beeline's STP of market strategies, as you said. I've been with the company now for just over 21. Insane.

Christopher Dwyer: Jen, he's, he's cheating, though. He's cheating.

Jen Torney: That's right. Because it wasn't all Beeline.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Well, this is true.

Jen Torney: But it's Navigator. That's a technicality.

Brian Hoffmeyer: But actually there's an even deeper technicality that the actual company name is still IQ Navigator and that is still who pays us. So technically, I have been with IQ Navigator for 21 years. There's a little known fact, you know,

Christopher Dwyer: Jen, he got me. I knew that.

Jen Torney: Fun fact. Did you know that, Chris?

Christopher Dwyer: No, I didn't.

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's some, there's there's a tax, I'm, um, sure reason for it. So. But we operate as Beeline, so. Yeah. Now Beeline, you know, the Beeline and IQN came together now nine years. We're nine years. Yeah. Which is just insane that we've been, we've been together for that long. But in terms of what I do, the hats that I wear, I have the privilege of leading our global partner team and working with amazing partners like Tap Fin. In addition to that, I help with, uh, product strategy in terms of who we're going to sell to and what we're going to sell all around the globe. And because I've been around for 21 years, get pulled into a lot of different stuff because I, I know what happened, you know, 18 years ago on a particular account. And I just, you know, I'm, I'm very privileged to get to do what I do. I, I, I feel like my job is, is pretty fun. Um, and it's not something I imagined that I'd be doing for 21 years, but I've got an incredible passion for it.

Christopher Dwyer: Great. Awesome. Well, thank you both for joining us. Uh, before we get into the real discussion today, which of course is about Christmas movies and holiday cooking, the question I, and it's funny too. Like, like Hoff, right? We had Teresa from Beeline on the podcast, I think, you know what, not even a month ago. And I've noticed this too, with folks, I hate to say this, folks of our age who've been in the space, you know, two decades or close to two decades or more, is that none of us have actually gotten into this industry on purpose. Mhm. It's always been accidental. So I wanted to ask you both, did you just find yourselves in this space or did you seek out the opportunity? Cause, I mean, it's different, uh, for me because obviously I'm on the analyst and researcher and thought leader side. But like, like Hoff and Jen, like, I know a lot of folks start off as like, oh, they work, they're a recruiter for a staffing organization. They spent a lot of time in the staffing world. They may be an HR or ta, may be managing a program, and then they find themselves in the workforce solutions area.

Jen Torney: I can go first if you want, Hoff, unless you have a story. Um, I actually did seek it out in a very bizarre and sort of very rapid way. I was always in some sort of sales role or sales leader role, but I was in primarily telecom, but like telecom equipment. So I worked for one of the biggest resellers of telecom. And the telecom bubble burst and it was very, very quick how fast that disintegrated. Um, and our company that was public delisted. And I thought, what part of the, of the economy is booming? And at that time, staffing was really, really booming. And I had a friend who worked for Kforce and said, can you give me an interview? And the rest is history after that. And I, I, um, loved it, but I really loved the solutions side of it. Not necessarily the, you know, putting people to work every day as a function of my job, but I mean, so I actually did kind of intentionally. I'm one of the rare people.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, you, Jen, you totally are one of the rare ones.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Right?

Christopher Dwyer: Like every single fo, every single person that's been on this podcast, I think especially over the past year. It's always. We fell into the space, right?

Jen Torney: Yes.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, for me it was. I was working as a product manager at a company that was basically a trust company. We managed 401ks and IRAs for large companies. And um, I was kind of frustrated and felt like I'd kind of gotten to the ceiling of where I could go in that company. I was at work looking uh, for a new job and I uh, was on this is a long, long time ago, 2004, bitmonster.com existed and I saw this job for a product manager at uh, IQ Navigator and applied for it knowing literally not thing about the company. And within 10 minutes the woman who hired me called me and did like an on the spot interview. And a couple days later I was down there in person doing like mock requirements, gathering for a use case on time entry. Very nerdy stuff. And uh, I really got hired and I knew literally nothing about what the industry was or what it did. And my first year I spent time, ah, working on our time entry module with a, an uh, offshore firm M. And so I knew I didn't even really get sucked into the rest of the business until a year in like I finally started figuring out, oh, this is actually what, what we did. So yeah, mine completely, completely accidental.

Christopher Dwyer: Jen, I have to say it's. It's pretty much on brand for Hoff to be at a position for several months and only figuring out after the

Jen Torney: wow, gloves are off. I love it. Chris. We got spicy. Chris today.

Christopher Dwyer: I say it only out of love

Brian Hoffmeyer: for, for Hopefully, Hopefully Doug isn't listening. No.

Christopher Dwyer: My bond with Doug Levy will never be broken.

Jen Torney: Huh?

Christopher Dwyer: Never. All right, so, um, if you see me peering down a discussion of this magnitude, I needed physical notes. Right. Because there's so much to cover. What is the most surprising thing about 2025? Again, we'll start with you.

Jen Torney: Okay. Um, well, so I'm going to probably lose about half of your listeners because I'm just going to say I personally did not realize that AI was going to move so incredibly rapidly. I don't think I really under. I shouldn't even admit this, but the truth is, going into the end of last year, I don't think I really understood agentic AI and the impact uh, to our business and how rapidly it would change the way that we work. And it sounds like sound bites, like me even saying that, but it just has truly been unbelievable to me and amazing and terrifying and all of those things. But there's no way that 2024 or 2025, me, either one would have known.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Mhm. So yeah, I think that's well said. It's been remarkable and I think it is that interesting combination of excitement and fear. Everyone's figuring this out as we go along, which is probably true of most revolutionary changes. Yeah, I think for me, you know, one of the things we see so much of in our society, in our world is a lack of collabor collaboration, a lack of people talking to each other, listening to each other's perspectives. As I was thinking about this question, I've been really, really pleased and impressed with the collaboration I've seen across multiple groups of partners time after time. You know, in the industry where we've got a Beeline customer, Beeline, maybe two or three Beeline partners coming together to solve our problem, and everybody comes out when different perspectives, their own agenda. Sometimes there's competitive overlap with parts of those things, but everyone focusing on solving that same problem. And I think it's one of the. Because our industry is at its core a people industry. I just, I love when I see that kind of collaboration, especially when it's sort of unexpected.

Christopher Dwyer: Awesome. Three positive. Three positive it is.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, I'm trying to be positive.

Jen Torney: Hoff.

Christopher Dwyer: Ah, we'll stick with you. What is the most unsurprising thing about 2025, your perspective?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Well, this is where I'm going to probably be a little less positive. You know, is, is there, there seems to be this continued, um, I get, for lack of a better term, malaise, ah, that's going on in the industry. And I think that's typical when we see the, the lack of growth that we've seen now for basically three years in a row. Um, you know, I think all of us, for many, many years there was this economic engine, I've come to call it, where you know, companies were spending 5 or 10% more on contingent labor year and just not seeing that kind of growth. You know, I saw a projection recently that between now and 2030, the US spend in just traditional contingent labor is going to grow by a total of 10%. And that's just, that's, that's a hard environment for everybody involved and I think it affects everyone. And so, um, you know, I've heard I've literally had three or four different people in C suite revenue producing positions call themselves the Chief Chief Flat Officer. You know, like flat is the new growth. So like that just sort of affects everybody, including not just all of us who are providers who rely on that revenue and income, but I think it affects the buyers as well. So that, you know, that's was unsurprising. Um, but it's also not fun.

Christopher Dwyer: Now, let me ask the both of you, right? I mean, you. You see a wide variety of partners and clients at your respective solutions, right? But the idea of like next year being flat or even a minor, minor bump in growth. What's interesting from my perspective is I feel like there's a balance between the verticals that may see a drop and then the verticals that may see a spike, like healthcare or pharma or like that. Uh, so does that play into your perspectives of next year?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There, there are definitely verticals, like you said, that are doing well. I think another one is stuff associated with frontline production. You know, distribution centers, warehouses, whatever it is. Those are. A lot of those jobs are the ones that are not being disrupted by AI. And I think there's a correlation there. Even if AI is not really. That disruption hasn't started. People are expecting it and are holding off as a result of doing it. I think the other thing that is exciting is there's a shift of how people are engaging in contingent labor. And you know, uh, we talk about this sort of ad nauseam, but the shift towards use of statement of work services procurement continues, um, in a pretty drastic way.

Christopher Dwyer: So, Hoff, we're gonna stick with you here. Where does VMS go? I know it's a. That's a loaded question.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Well, in. And Jen and I may have collaborated, conspired a little bit behind the scenes. And so I'm actually gonna throw that question over to Jen.

Jen Torney: Yeah, well, and I do have. I mean, believe it or not, I have some opinions. Um, and, uh, so we'll see. Half of you agree, but I think, you know, as we look at the. Even as we think consider, like considering V line and really moving towards that extended workforce management platform, I think that evolution will continue. I think we are already seeing that transactional workflow is not just what a BMS technology does. Um, I think that's kind of similar to MSP too. I mean, transactional workflow is where VMS and MSP were born. And I think that with AI, with some of the partner extensions, with integration with other types of systems, and then ultimately trying to get something that allows for an omnichannel sort of technology platform to operate, to acquire all of your talent, I think it becomes less of a system you use and more of a system that just is your. It enables you. It works for you. And I think over the next three years we're going to see VMs like Beeline and others become very intuitive, have really slick decision support. I think being able to support multiple types of workers so beyond what we see traditionally in the modules of a traditional bms. Um, so that part I'm really excited about. I think that um, we're seeing a lot of movement there and I'm going

Christopher Dwyer: to just, I'm going to interrupt here quickly because Jen, something you said about using the word extended. And I will fully admit, Hoff, I name dropped you, I think during the podcast with Teresa. And I think I said something like, I remember was it maybe 2021, having a conversation like, all right, we are, we're going to be calling ourselves an extended workforce platform. Like, I don't feel comfortable with that. Like, I'm just so adverse to change at my old age now. But I think the more we looked at it, it made sense. Right. And then during my discussion with Teresa, you know, four or five weeks ago, whenever it was the Beeline acquisition of MBO Partners and it just, I don't know, it all came together for me like in my head like, well, like MBO freelancers. ICs right. More independent talent workers that tend to fall outside of the scope of programs. Sometimes they, most of the time they fall outside of VMs. Tougher MSPs as well. Um, it's putting really just building that foundation of what the extended workforce is and how it's managed. Right. So all that made sense.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, we were probably out over the tips of our skis when we started using that expression. I think you're right. It was in 2021. But I think it, you know, it

Christopher Dwyer: now emits this four and a half years later. Right?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah. Hey, you know, I mean, self fulfilling prophecy. Right. And Jen, I really love what you said because basically it was what I would have said as well. And that's what we're becoming. And um, you know, we're thinking a lot about, you know, how does Beeline just sort of act in the background on behalf of someone based on initial prompts and things like that. I mean that's where systems of all types are probably going to go. Um, and then the human will come back in and get involved when the human needs to get involved. I think from, you know, so I know, Chris, you were going to ask the Jen, where the, where does the MSP go? And so, you know, in line I'll, I'll give some thoughts on this. And honestly, Jen, I'd Love your opinions. But you know, I think you already hit on when you talked about some of the evolution of your role, you talked about strategic advisory services. And I think that's where msps are going. Uh, because a lot of the transactional things that used to happen are going to be automated. And so, you know, unless you don't think that's going to happen or, you know, sort of. There are organizations probably that are head in the sand that their traditional transactional tactical things are. They think they're not going to go away. And will all of them go away? Of course not. But I think focusing on that strategic advisory services and how work gets done is where MSPs in conjunction with technology. That's how you're going.

Jen Torney: I love that. And I, yeah, the advisory thing is huge. I mean, I think it's, it's interesting because if you think back to when tapfin and some of the other players in the MSP side of the industry started coming out with their own platforms for analytics, for rich analytics, clients wanted big packages of reporting. They wanted to go through it, ah, ad nauseam in a quarterly business review. Honestly, nobody has time for that anymore. And they don't want to know. They want to know where the data's coming from, that it's coming from a sound data source that's giving them accurate information and they want somebody to interpret it and tell them. It's kind of like I say, it's always like when you go to the doctor and you get your blood workup for your yearly physical, you get the results sometimes before the doctor can even get to you and you're like, oh gosh, I don't know. That's high, that's low. Like, should I worry about that part? That part. And it's really easy to sound the alarm or think you're fine and then you get the call from the doctor and the thing that they want you to focus on is one thing, or they need to give you, you know, put you on a statin. Right. Or whatever that looks like. And I think really what MSP and VMS for that matter, but especially msp, we are going to have to be that advisor at a very executive level, making sure we are giving the right guidance based on the symptomatic stuff we see in their program and outside of their program too, around location, strategy, cost, the way that they're sourcing things like, I mean, let's talk about skill shortages are still happening. And what about job taxonomy? I mean some of the basics, like we've Got to solve for that. So, anyway, I think I'm really excited about the fact that I think we are elevating the way that we're showing up and getting rid of all of the archaic nonsense that nobody really needs or values.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Agreed.

Christopher Dwyer: You know, Jen, I keep thinking about this too. I remember. And, um, actually, it may have been on the podcast we did around this time in 2020, but I remember having a conversation with you outside of that, maybe around this time, Q4ish, 2020, and asking like, all right, because I was very curious too. Right. 2020 was just a very weird year, for lack of a better word. But, Jen, I do remember you telling me, like, you had never seen such a high demand for the advisory piece of the MSP business because your clients and your partners weren't looking to you just for the transactional, just to manage, but also looking at you as a true strategic partner. And I've always, I always come back to that because I think, you know, there's always a conversation around MSP as a service. Is it really evolving? And I always say yes, like, it continues to evolve. Just because it's not technology based doesn't mean that it can't progress alongside the market.

Jen Torney: Well, it's funny you say that too, because, like, with COVID we saw something that, you, uh, know, it was pervasive around the globe of things around like vaccine mandates and what have you, and how do you manage that with your workforce? That was pretty pervasive in the workforce around the globe in different ways and flavors. And I think that actually is pretty representative of an MSP dealing with little bits and bobs and different types of regulations all over the globe. And so if you don't have somebody kind of at the helm helping you understand, you know, do you just need to get to the gym or can you go on a statin? And then you have to change your whole lifestyle, you know, like, what do you need to do? So I think that's, uh, to me, I think the MSP is really going to have to step up and become so much more than time to fill. Oh, my gosh. It is helping, uh, guide the workforce, strategy and execution globally.

Christopher Dwyer: Blood work shows that maybe we need less cookie butter. That's gym stabbers.

Jen Torney: I don't like that kind of limitation in my life.

Christopher Dwyer: All right, So I want to pivot a little bit because this conversation between the three of us is always known for going beyond future of work. Right. Like, we talk about fun things and we're all dressed up for the holidays. Especially Hoff. I'm winning.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I'm winning here. By the way.

Christopher Dwyer: I was gonna do a Santa hat, and then I was like, m.

Jen Torney: I wasn't even told. There was no memo. Like, I feel like you let us. Like, you held us, threw us out to dry.

Brian Hoffmeyer: You must have missed, uh, that there is a whole thing.

Christopher Dwyer: All right, so the question is, Hoff, it's around quantum computing and.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Okay. Uh, my connection's breaking up here.

Christopher Dwyer: Did you laugh when I asked you that question?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yes.

Christopher Dwyer: Okay, good. Awesome.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Good to hear.

Christopher Dwyer: Hoffer, I'm going to start with you, because you, obviously, you're known for being Chez Hoff, right? You're a cook. What is your favorite holiday dish?

Brian Hoffmeyer: You know, I always hate these favorite questions because they're really, really hard. Uh, we'll do this.

Christopher Dwyer: Give me your favorite to cook and favorite to eat.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah. Uh, so for me, Christmas is all about, like, a giant roast, and it kind of doesn't matter what that roast is. And it's not a. By the way. Actually, it does. It does matter. It's not a turkey. Like, we just got done with turkey. Like, I, uh.

Jen Torney: Bad rule, though. I don't agree.

Brian Hoffmeyer: You don't agree?

Jen Torney: I like turkey. I think at Christmas, I think it's just.

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's too much. Too much of the same for me. But we can agree to disagree for me. For me, this year, because. So when it comes to steaks, I like a, uh, New York strip over a ribeye. And for the same reason, I like a strip loin roast instead of a prime rib. I think it's a better. For me, it's a better cut of meat. And so that's what I've been going with. That's what's gonna be at my Christmas table this year is a large strip loin roast. Um, and I think that just. That screams festivity.

Christopher Dwyer: Now, Hoff, do you sous vide that?

Jen Torney: No.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Generally too big for. At least for my sous vide setup, I slow roast them to bring them to temperature in the same way that cooking in a water bath would do when you sous vide something. And so cooking nerdom here, but it makes sure that the roast is evenly cooked edge to edge. You don't get a band of overcooked meat on the outside. It's medium rare or whatever your preference, but medium rare is the right preference, uh, throughout. And then you sear it at the end to get a nice crust on the outside.

Jen Torney: This is like a master class, and I'm so glad this is recorded. I. Not joking because my answer was gonna be so pathetic about tenderloin and how it always comes out gray, but, you know, it's like, all one color. And I'm like, I've tried it so many different ways.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Just like, you know, Butterball has their turkey hotline. There's. There's a Hoff. Huh?

Jen Torney: Hoff Hotline for all you listeners out there. Yeah.

Brian Hoffmeyer: And it's about that.

Christopher Dwyer: We get a special guest here.

Jen Torney: Hi. Oh, that is the tortie.

Christopher Dwyer: This is the tortie, Winifred.

Jen Torney: So cute. All right, we're going to look at the Christmas outfit.

Brian Hoffmeyer: All, uh.

Christopher Dwyer: Right, Jen. Sorry. Good.

Jen Torney: I told you. I mean, I embarrassingly admitted the fact that, like, after Hoff talking about his recipes, that I fall real flat. Because, I mean, I know some of the basics, but I am certainly not his level. But I do like making a turkey at Thanksgiving. My family's from California, so we always had it at Christmas, too, I think, because everybody was worried about health and all that goodness.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah.

Jen Torney: But I've tried to do roasts. I've just not done them well. I do, I don't, um, some people like and some people don't, but I do love, like, a rack of lamb.

Christopher Dwyer: We were talking about lamb in our email thread about the, the mint jelly. Right.

Jen Torney: Yes. That is a delicious way to go, but again, I'd be afraid to ruin it, so, you know, that's where I'm at.

Christopher Dwyer: Well, I mean, there's not, not the time for this, but do you trim the bones from the, uh, rib roast before you sous vide it or not? Because I, I, maybe it's sacrilege, but I trim the bones.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I do. Well, I will generally trim them off and then tie them back on.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah. To tie on. Yep.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah. Because then it's easier to carve at the table. But the boat, like, eating, uh, this is caveman. But, like, eating the meat off from around the bones is pretty amazing. I don't know. You asked.

Jen Torney: Conversation. Can you please deliver me a rose? Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing.

Christopher Dwyer: Why? Honestly, I think next year, the way we do this podcast is not just on video, but maybe we sit around Hoff's kitchen, right.

Brian Hoffmeyer: And we just talk as, uh, you

Christopher Dwyer: know, we pour some wine.

Jen Torney: Hoff cooks, you know, he does good holiday cocktails, too.

Christopher Dwyer: That's right.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, that's right. I gotta work on a Christmas one. The Thanksgiving one was quite a hit. Awesome.

Christopher Dwyer: Keeping with the holiday theme here, and I feel like there's always a potential for argument in a good way. But, Jen, uh, we'll start with you. Your favorite holiday TV special. Not movie. Holiday TV special. We'll get to movie in a sec.

Jen Torney: So I don't know if I have a TV special that I like. Although I do like all the Snoopy stuff. So, like, there's a ton of different ways you can get into Snoopy over the holidays. I like Peanuts. That's so old, but that's really it. Uh, I mean, I'm also. I have a 12 year old, so we've kind of grown out of the stuff we used to watch, and now we get to start watching, like, adult stuff a little bit. And so, you know, I'm just trying to. I mean, it's not great.

Christopher Dwyer: I know.

Jen Torney: I don't know.

Christopher Dwyer: My daughter's 12 as well, so.

Jen Torney: So, you know, it's like that in between. And you're kind of like, okay, we can't watch cartoons anymore because that's not cool. And then you can't watch Die Hard. Just too much swearing and death and death and dismemberment. So then you're kind of like, you know, where am I left? Elf. You're back at Elf.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah. Which, you know, you've seen that so many times.

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's a great background. No, I mean, it's.

Christopher Dwyer: No, I. I was going to say Hoff. I agree with that. I think that's like having Elf or a, uh, Christmas story or. I mean, Christmas vacation, I feel is the must watch.

Jen Torney: Yes. Wait, what's the. I mean, what Christmas series is there even to do?

Christopher Dwyer: Like, I'm thinking special. I mean, I'm. I love, like the Rudolph.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, the Rankin and Bass.

Christopher Dwyer: And the Rankin Bass one. I love, you know, the frosty cartoon. Okay, I'm thinking of that. Hoff, what about you?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Like, one thing on the. The ranking and Bass. Rudolph, like, Santa's kind of an ass in that. Like, like, you, like, you're like Santa. You don't really like it so.

Christopher Dwyer: Well, I mean, I remember the scene where they're in the. The cave with Rudolph's parents and he's like, same on you. I'm like, not Rudolph's fault.

Jen Torney: Yeah, nice.

Brian Hoffmeyer: He really is not nice.

Christopher Dwyer: Oh, my God.

Jen Torney: Yeah. That's reflective of the culture back then. People were not nice. People are mean.

Brian Hoffmeyer: The best part of that show is, uh, Herbie the elf who wants to be a dentist. And, uh, Uconn Cornelius is. Yeah, they're my.

Christopher Dwyer: We have a big white golden retriever and we came down to two names, and UConn was one of the names and like we're. His name's Sawyer. And I know folks on LinkedIn have seen him many, many times on the LinkedIn feed. But there's a part of me that at this time of year is like, I wish we named him Yukon.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Second name. Give him a middle name for TV special. I went down a rabbit hole last night of looking at Friends holiday episodes. And the one that I love the most is called the one with the holiday Armadillo where Ross's son, Ben, I think his name is fascinating, with Santa and they're Jewish. And Ross, uh, wants to teach him about traditions and can't find the Santa costume and he ends up in an armadillo costume. And it's, it's, it's work. Like go to YouTube and look it up because it's really, really funny.

Christopher Dwyer: It's held up well here, here's where Jen and I probably date ourselves a little bit. Hoff. Is that like that thing that came out when we were in high school?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Thank you.

Jen Torney: Yeah. Although I will say there's some good comedic gems and Friends and it's been a, um, enough time and space that it'll feel kind of fresh. So I probably need to get back into that.

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's still worth watching.

Jen Torney: And it's 12 year old. Relevant. Ish. I mean, it's not.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, I agree with that. John. What was the one where Chandler dropped all of the, uh, Thanksgiving plates? Was that a Thanksgiving or a Christmas one?

Brian Hoffmeyer: I think that's more of a Thanksgiving one.

Christopher Dwyer: Okay, makes sense.

Brian Hoffmeyer: We often watch those while we're doing Thanksgiving prep. We like tee up all of the Friends Thanksgiving episodes and run them back.

Christopher Dwyer: Do you?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, because there's one every season. So occupied for a while.

Christopher Dwyer: Good background.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Good background.

Christopher Dwyer: Um, all right, so we'll stick with the holiday stuff. Right?

Brian Hoffmeyer: All right.

Christopher Dwyer: So holiday movie, right, Jen? Cause I think you wanted to go in that direction.

Jen Torney: Yeah, holiday movie. I mean, elf is like my gold standard. My daughter. And so for people who have kiddos that are younger than 12, I do like to say corny. But the Christmas Chronicles, there's a couple of them that are really cute. They're watchable. It's Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell. And it's just a really wholesome, cute Christmas movie. It's good for about the like five to ten set. Um, we were just talking about last night because I think my daughter's like, ah, it's good. We watched it a couple times, Mom. But there's three. I think there's two or three of them and they're pretty good. For me, it's all for parents, you know what I mean?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, Anything Hallmark where the, the person from the big city goes back to the small town. No, I'm kidding.

Christopher Dwyer: Well, this is, this is where Hoff like dresses in flannel. He's the vms, uh, product specialist that goes back in his hometown. Right.

Jen Torney: Yeah.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Small town boy made good. You know, all that's a really bad plot actually for me. Love actually is. Is my all time favorite. And we often like at parties, we put, we put Christmas movies on, on the TV and turn it to black and white and just have them running in the background, which is just, I don't know, kind of a fun tradition.

Jen Torney: Cute idea.

Brian Hoffmeyer: No. Sad.

Christopher Dwyer: Where does Christmas vacation rank here for the two.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Oh, it's up. It's. Yeah, it's for sure up there. You know, for me it's the top three and I don't know if I can put them actually in order. Love actually, Christmas vacation and elf. Amazing.

Jen Torney: Yeah. I'm a yes for National Lampoon stuff, so that's definitely on the short list.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Some all, uh, right.

Christopher Dwyer: Sad that we had. We do have to go back to future of work content here.

Jen Torney: Okay.

Christopher Dwyer: So it really is like a huge pivot here as I looked at my notes, uh, speaking.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Pivot.

Christopher Dwyer: Pivot. Back to our conversation about friends. All right, so AI, right? Digitization, human in the loop, agentic. You know, you both sit in major roles in this industry. A lot of folks look up to the both of you as thought leaders, as luminaries. How do you sort of put all of the quote unquote AI stuff together, right? And I'm not saying like give us a 101, but how do you make, how does someone make sense of it? All right? And I know it's a lot here, right? But you know, there's a lot of content and discussion around AI. Right?

Jen Torney: Yeah, there is. So I'll jump in because I think Hoff will probably have. Coming from the tech perspective, might have a better perspective than I. But I would say, you know, I think kind of categorizing when we're talking about AI, like what type of AI are we talking about? So for example, there's the AI that enables us to do our business faster, better like ChatGPT or Copilot, those language models. And then there's tech that is operating in the tech that we use to do, uh, our day to day and the VMS for that matter, that is AI enabled. There's knowledge that you can tap into with regard to market rates, I. E. Our rate intelligence Ops, rate intelligence, tdx, Brightfield, et cetera. So like I think we need to think in terms of like categorizing to say like what kind of AI are we talking about? But to me I think it's already permeating most organizations and if you haven't leaned into it, that's a really, really, um, you got to kind of jump in. Um, the only other thing is though, I do believe, I feel really strongly that humans are going to become the orchestrators of both complex tech ecosystems, but also AI ecosystem. And so I think where we can think about it in terms of elevating ourselves to be operating the tech, I think that is the, I think that's the right perspective for now. I don't think there's replacement is going to happen anytime soon. We can tell already when we query uh, one of the most famous language models with ChatGPT. How many times do we have to change it? It's not accurate or there's something off. So I think it's a great starting point, it's a great tool. I think it's going to be the answer um, for skills based hiring and a lot of things around redeployment.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I agree with everything Jen said. I think at the core when it comes to AI, start with the problem. What is the problem you're trying to solve? What is the use case? I mean I guess for me as somebody that grew up in product management, I often think in use cases I think sometimes there's so much AI out there. I've been in a number of big conferences and literally it's all you see. And I think sometimes there's a solution that it's in search of a problem that it's trying to solve. And so like we're always focused on what is a core challenge issue that a client or partner has and how might we solve that. And it isn't necessarily always with AI, sometimes it's with an integration to another system or whatever. And so I think starting there ultimately drives the right decision. And then obviously like it's incredibly key that. And you know Jen, you said it well with orchestration like in our world that the human is in the loop, um, in that decision making. And then I think the kind of related to that, I think there needs to be more thoughtfulness. And I'm trying to say this without coming across like a luddite about should we and what are the rules and regulations that need to be considered because as we've already talked about Pandora's out of the box and not going back in at all. But we need to think about some of those rules that are going to be helpful. And this goes beyond our world. This is the entire. And you think about this with like autonomous cars. Like there's all kinds of rules you need to think about there. Right. And same thing for, for making decisions about people's lives.

Christopher Dwyer: So one thing that I had said at, uh, our Future of Work Exchange live event, I was going to say a couple months ago, my Gosh, it's been six months. Where did 2025 go? Right. And we're all feeling that. But I called AI the ultimate workforce partner. And I think that, Jen, that's kind of in line with what you were saying, right? That humans need to elevate themselves as sort of part of this evolution.

Jen Torney: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Awesome.

Christopher Dwyer: All right.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I'm sure people are already doing it, but it's probably a fringe thing right now. Like we're going to be managing AI agents just like we manage human employees. You know, there's going to be like AI performance review, you know, like this. It's sort of, it's just, it's very crazy to think about.

Christopher Dwyer: It is crazy to think about. Right? And it's. Well, it's too. I forget who I was having the conversation with. But like, remember maybe like the late, like, I mean pre pandemic. So many research studies. And I'm sure we were guilty of this at Arden Partners as well, but it's like, oh, like X percentage of jobs in five to seven years don't exist today. And I think we are like, all right, whatever. Like, and it's funny now, like if we said that in 2018, that's actually very true today.

Jen Torney: Yeah, it's happening rote. Very basic roles will be absolutely replaced in short order. And I think, um, the answer is going to be in the sophisticated, more strategy based roles. I mean, I was talking to somebody yesterday about, and this is probably, again, I'm not going to say this is like this big aha. Ah. But for me it was where he was talking about, I have three language models that I'm, that I'm teaching so that I can have one for personal, one for work, one for. He has a, you know, his little side hobby projects, whatever. And I think that's the thing too is we need to be thinking in terms of like, how are we training the tech that we use to be in service of us. Uh, because the smarter it becomes, the Better. It can serve you and make your life easier. And I think that's just something that again, this wouldn't have even occurred to me to be thinking like this last year because we were in a human powered, you know, world and now we are in a hybrid world. In my opinion, we're in human and technology powered world.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, yeah. I've used this analogy a couple times this week. You know, when you're training a human, you know, sometimes our, like, our uh, reaction is like, oh, I don't want to spend an hour teaching somebody to do something I could do in five minutes and not thinking about, okay, if I spend that hour now after they do it 12 times, you're going to. I'm coming out ahead. I'm saving time. And very much the same thing is true about AI like if you spend time teaching whatever your favorite model is about your business and how you do things, how you write whatever it is that ends up paying dividends.

Jen Torney: Well, you save so much time because you don't have to worry about feelings. So that's always really nice.

Christopher Dwyer: I wonder if we could have AI uh do a little parenting for us,

Jen Torney: especially the hard ones where you're just like, oof, I didn't know this was going to be a thing.

Christopher Dwyer: Right.

Jen Torney: Although I do ask sometimes, like, my daughter's in like 11th grade math. Like she's some crazy smart kiddo, which is I'm super proud of. But she's like, mom, I can help with math. And I'm like, hold on. She's like, well, don't tell me the answer, but I have to ask ChatGPT to help me teach her. I don't remember like calculus.

Brian Hoffmeyer: No. Well, the way even the way they math is taught these days, very different

Jen Torney: than how we honestly.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, you know the Jen, you probably because again, our, our daughters are the exact same age.

Jen Torney: Yeah.

Christopher Dwyer: The number, the number lines.

Jen Torney: Oh, I'm like, come on. Yeah, a lot of it. It's like, how much paper can we waste?

Christopher Dwyer: All right, so let's, I want to do I, I, we. I've been doing this in a lot of the the Fox podcast and I think it's really fun because we can really go off on a tangent on a lot of these topics and I feel I'm, uh, looking at these now. There's four topics and I know the three of us could talk at length about each of them. So try 30, 45 second answers. Right. I know it's tough because we're all long winded here. Jen, start with you direct Sourcing, I think it's maturing.

Jen Torney: I think it is here to stay. I think we've been talking about it for so long, clients want to do it. I don't think it's a replacement the way that people thought it was going to be a replacement. I think it's another arrow in your quiver.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, yeah, completely agree, agree. I probably stole that expression from you. It's an arrow in the quiver. It's not like the one arrow. And I think it's also something that we need to continue to look for ways to simplify. Going back to that collaboration thing that I was talking about at the very start, where I've seen direct sourcing be successful is when all parties collaborate to create simplification.

Christopher Dwyer: All right, Hoff, stick with you. Skills based hire, for sure.

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's a thing. And I think we're going to see more and more of it. I think we're going to see even the way we educate people change from traditional education to education on specific skills that are in demand. You know, I don't like, maybe this is kind of my like, way out there prediction, but like, even the way degrees are, uh, issued, I think is going to change. I mean, think about our, you know, our education. Like so much of what you learn in college relatively unapplicable, you know, other than like teaching you how to learn. Um, and so I think we're gonna, we're gonna continue to see this focus on learning specific skills and as well, what are those skills, you know, you know, what are the things that humans are gonna be doing? And I related to that, like, uh, one of them is going to be more physical skills, you know, that can't be done by a machine.

Christopher Dwyer: Hoff, I always thought that you had your doctorate in contingent workforce management.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Now that was not available back then. So it's an honorary degree. I granted myself honorary. There was a ceremony, I wore a robe, had a little funny hat, was the only one there.

Christopher Dwyer: Jen, Lightning round, still retiring.

Jen Torney: So, I mean, I just, I think this is the answer. This is the part that's really frustrating for me because we still live in a world of, um, job descriptions and job titles, even in contingent labor. And we need to think in terms of what's the work to be done. And I think this is the biggest issue with unemployment and people having a hard time finding people. And it's. If only we could leverage and just lean into breaking the barriers down around job template libraries, for goodness sake, and start thinking in terms of what's the work to be done. And what is the type of skill that is needed to get that work done? Full stop.

Christopher Dwyer: Jen, our favorite topic, services procurement.

Jen Torney: It is, it still is. I think this is like this is just going to continue to grow. I mean there's just so much out there in the way people are really looking at outcome based work. I think not dissimilar to skills based hiring. People are looking at what is the work to be done. I want the work to be done by X and this cost is appropriate and I think it's sort of like cut through the time and effort and just get it done. So I think that's going to continue to grow. I think BPO is also going to continue to grow. I think areas around leveraging AI to build your own project rather than only going to the big four to get a project created and spun up I think will become more readily available for those that lean in to tech and AI.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, I think related to that we're going to see these, this continued hybridization of um thing. You know we talked you know a lot this year about uh, work that exists somewhere in between contingent labor and services procurement. It's got elements of both and I

Christopher Dwyer: think that's a will continue final lightning round topic. Total talent buys a work hall.

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's it, it's real. But too many companies are not managing uh, this is broken record. But like too many companies don't manage all of their contingent workforce in a program. They can't answer the basic questions and until they do that they can't manage total like full stop.

Jen Torney: I'll just say like I think um, the irony is total talent is a naming convention around a, a strategy. Not a thing. And then also it's also built on old school categories of work. Permanent temp, perm, payroll. Like we gotta stop with these categories. I mean I think it's like I feel like I wish we could just start with a clean slate and say okay, hold on. Our workforce strategy is X. This is what we need around for a long time. This is what we need to come and go. We can move these people around, you know, like that simple. But I think it would take a uh, massive shift.

Christopher Dwyer: Yeah, it's uh, I always try to like hold myself back from the total talent discussion. Right. I mean I say this all the time and it's again makes me feel old. But it's 2011 when I wrote one of the industry's first pieces on total talent. Like and it's like 14 years later. I know theory but like I do and Jen, I Love the way, the direction you're going with this. Right. Because it's, it's more of like breaking down, I think, traditional, you know, definitions of where talent is. But I um, think of like, you know, like, where does RPO fit in? Right. Selfishly. Right. Jen, looking at, at manpower, right. Do you have, you have an msp, right? And you have, you have an RPO ARM as well. Right. So it's, it's this mix and blend of solutions in a hop. It's not just VMs too, but you have to think about your human capital suites, your HRIS platforms. So there's, there's a lot there. Okay, I've got a few more questions here. Um, um, I have a really fun one I'm going to save to the end, but predictions for next year. Right. So I'm going to ask each of you what's one big prediction you have? And then I also want a wild one. And wild could be like little differentiated, something that may not be traditional or it could be more nuanced. But Jen, start with you. One big prediction for next year.

Jen Torney: I feel like I get these sometimes directionally correct. I, um, think that we are going to see a lot of change in all of our ecosystem with regard to how people are delivering solutions, like massively. I think we're going to see some changes around some of the big players and some of the smaller ones around their viability categories of their business that go away. So I think that's going to be pretty huge. And then some M and A obviously will probably continue.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I think there's going to be a massive focus on anti impersonation, anti fraud measures in our space. I think that's, that's a big, big thing that people are already talking about. I think it's going to continue. The numbers and the stories are kind of staggering and scary and um, you know, and it's, it's, it's the current arms race, I guess. You know, how can you stay ahead of the bad actors?

Christopher Dwyer: You know, it's funny how if you bring this up I, for years and you know, um, I'm okay admitting this, right. I wasn't really focused on candidate fraud as part of our research or any of our thought leadership content. And then I kept hearing, well, you know, only half a percentage of our candidates are fraudulent. Right. Or applications or whatever. And I'm thinking about it. If you're a big organization that gets 3,000 candidate applications per month or even 1%'s a chunk, right? That's, that's too big. Right. So.

Brian Hoffmeyer: And the risk is, you know, it's like that old risk management analogy, the likelihood of the risk and the impact of the risk. Right. And like this is an area where the impact of the risk can be absolutely massive.

Jen Torney: Mhm.

Christopher Dwyer: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's too like. And I've seen some folks on LinkedIn post about just fraudulent recruiters, right. You know, sort of preying on, um, you know, folks with open to work badges. So, um. All right, Hoff, stick with you. One wild prediction for next year.

Brian Hoffmeyer: The, uh, Broncos are going to win the Super Bowl.

Christopher Dwyer: I disagree. Jen, you. One wild prediction that Hoffman's gonna burn

Jen Torney: his roast for the Christmas.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Oh, wow.

Jen Torney: No, I'm just kidding. That was mean. That was really mean. Um, I'm a little bit jealous because I just wish I could do them, like, get it cooked just right. You know what? I do. I actually, I will take that, take you up on that tutorial because I do need the help. I think we're going to see something around, like at the C level around. It's pretty wild, I guess not that wild around managing AI agents. Almost like HR for AI, but with different, you know, different outcomes. Right. But I think we're going to have to start seeing people that aren't just AI strategy, but really how do we govern this body of workers that are not human.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, awesome. Totally.

Christopher Dwyer: Do you want a real wild prediction for work or you gonna stick with the Broncos?

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's funny, I was actually gonna, I was gonna talk about something like that where, you know, basically performance management is going to need to evolve. We've added an additional layer of complexity to the question of how work is going to get done. So there's that initial decision making and then the complexity of managing the performance of those things gets really complicated. Especially when we think about one of the things that a lot of AI does well is it finds patterns that humans can't because it can analyze reams of data. And so how do we as humans manage that performance is pretty interesting. So I think there's going to be, uh, I don't know if it's a trend or not or prediction, but that's going to be a growing theme of people.

Christopher Dwyer: You really think the Broncos are going to take down the Pats in the playoffs?

Brian Hoffmeyer: I don't think the Pats are going to make it, but I don't think you guys are. You guys are.

Christopher Dwyer: It has been six and a half long years since we lost one in the Super Bowl.

Brian Hoffmeyer: It's been a lot longer for the Broncos. So I think it's a lot longer.

Christopher Dwyer: What, 2016, right?

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, I mean, like two years longer, so.

Jen Torney: Yeah.

Christopher Dwyer: Right.

Jen Torney: So you guys both feel better? I'm in Panther country, so. And they're pretty good, but I mean, shock every time. No, no offense, Panthers.

Brian Hoffmeyer: I actually think there's predicting who's going to win this year's Super Bowl. Like, I mean, it's. This is definitely one of those NFL years where they play the games on Sunday for a reason. You know, like stuff that happens.

Christopher Dwyer: Well, I mean, it's funny. I mean, you just look at what happened to the Eagles last night, Kansas City over the weekend. It's just. It's a weird NFL year, so.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Yeah, I started Jalen Hurts at quarterback in my fantasy football league. That did not work out well for me.

Jen Torney: Not a good week.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Negative eight points.

Jen Torney: Yeah, I know, but that play, I mean, he deserved it. He deserved it. It was a little bit of a

Brian Hoffmeyer: disaster when he turned the ball over twice on the same play all at once.

Jen Torney: It was just. It was like an ice skating routine.

Christopher Dwyer: Now, the NFL has been collecting data since 78, and that's the first time that's ever happened.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Really?

Jen Torney: Really. I'm not surprised. I was like, what? Just. What did I just see?

Christopher Dwyer: What just happened? Meaningful and thoughtful here. That does appear apply to the world of work and talent. And this is what I came up with. You know, looking back on your career, what is one thing you would do differently or one thing you wish you could have changed? It's a hard question. I know.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Uh, it is a hard. I'm generally a relatively risk adverse person. I think probably taking more risks is something I would tell people to do and put yourself out there and, and take control over your own career. I didn't, uh, at probably no time in our history is that more important than it is right now because of everything that we've just talked about. Yeah. So take risks and take charge of your own career.

Christopher Dwyer: You don't regret the IQ navigator back tattoo or.

Brian Hoffmeyer: No, no, no. I always love that.

Jen Torney: Um, I'll go. I'll go real quick. I will just say two things, though, that I really am thankful I did do. And the first is like, I always trusted my gut and my instinct, and I feel like those never steered me wrong. Even when I made the wrong decision, I kind of knew it. And then the second is always know or have an idea of where you want to go in five years from where you sit today and are you in service of that goal. So those two things, I think are really important. One thing I wish I would have done is I wish I would have started researching and becoming a student of the work that I was doing at the time every week. So incorporating that into my week, um, um, that was something I Learned from Dave McGonigal where it was like, he's such a smart guy. I work with him here at tapfin, but he is like, if I don't get two or three hours to learn every week, I'm, um, a disaster. Like he, he can't, his engine doesn't run without it. But that's what has him have such a great point of view. Whether it's macroeconomic trends, our business, and I think that's true, whether I think back to telecom and knowing kind of what we were talking about, all of that stuff. I think being a student of the game that you're playing is so important.

Christopher Dwyer: Well, my friends, we come to the end.

Jen Torney: Hi, blue buck 26 almost.

Christopher Dwyer: Say again?

Jen Torney: It's going to be 20, 26, almost. So crazy.

Christopher Dwyer: Three weeks.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Three weeks.

Christopher Dwyer: Three weeks. Well, uh, Jen Tornay, global leader of solutions at uh, Talent Solutions tapfin, and Brian Hoffmeier, SVP Market strategies at Beeline. This is really my favorite time of year and a big reason is we get to do this together.

Brian Hoffmeyer: So much fun. Thank you.

Jen Torney: Thank you both.

Brian Hoffmeyer: Appreciate you both.

Jen Torney: Happy holidays.