Episode 810: A Conversation With Vanessa Miller (Allegis Global Solutions)

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to another all new edition of the Future of Work Exchange podcast. My name is Christopher Dwyer, Managing Director of the Future of Work Exchange, also SVP of Research at Arden Partners, and of course the host of the Future of Work Exchange podcast. Uh, thrilled to be joined by not only one of my favorite humans, but also a dear friend of mine, uh, Vanessa Miller, Global Director of Product Strategy, Allegis Global Solutions. Vanessa, welcome. Long overdue to have you on here.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be joining again. I think the last time we did one of these was multiple years ago. So I was thrilled when I was invited back and um, really excited to dive into some topics today. So thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Oh, thank you for joining us Vanessa. Um, so every guest obviously would love to hear more about yourself and your background and your history in the space.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So uh, as you mentioned, I'm currently Global Director of Product Strategy here at Allegiance Global Solutions. I've been in the industry now for about 15 years which feels um, odd to say that now. I remember hearing those double digit numbers from others in the industry and I'm like man, I'm never going to get that old. That's not going to happen. And here I am. Um, so uh, I was fortunate enough I actually started my career here at Elitist Global Solutions. So I am uh, of those boomerangs uh, that you hear about um, and happy to be one. It's been a great experience. So started my career um, out of the gates in staffing and rpo, um gained a lot of uh, experience within a few of our key large enterprise clients globally at that time, working on global implementation as well as supporting client delivery and uh, right out of the gates really worked um, with some really great uh, really uh, innovative and inspirational leaders that I actually have the fortune of working with again today. Um, so started an rpo, moved into a product development role, ended uh up moving to Atrium, a women owned New York City based uh, enterprise solutions firm and uh, led with technology product development and ended up in a, in a talent tech partnerships role which I found. I found that I sort of fell in love with talent tech partnerships and earned my stripes if you will in the business development area and learn. Learned a lot and was able to progress I think with having that type of experience um, and kind of turned it into a channel partnerships skill set. Um brought that to graphite in 2023. A uh, ah, freelance marketplace, independent consultant marketplace and ah, FMS or freelance management system. So again um, gained great experience there and then rejoined AGS a couple years ago. Um, so again feel, feel fortun my path and sort of versatile experience. I will say a theme in all of my roles has been ambiguity. Um, I think I'm somewhat comfortable in ambiguity and uh, what warrants creative problem solving. So uh, for some reason I keep challenging myself with these types of roles but I uh, really um, thrive in it. Um, and yeah, excited to and feel good to be here at AGS leading product strategy for our external work force products.

Speaker A: Awesome. And Vanessa, I have to say I think we um, didn't meet during your first foray at ags, but we met when you were at Atrium and I have to think and you said it best. Right. Like being in a role where you're not only in a workforce solution but you're responsible for innovation and technology partnerships really exposes you to all of the wonderful things happening in our space. Right. So I have to think selfishly, if I was on your side, that would be the upbringing that I would love to have. Because it exposed you to not just VMS and the evolution of VMs, but you know, direct sourcing and AI and talent marketplaces and FMSS and you know, all of those burgeoning solutions that sit as part of the ecosystem.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it's a versatile space and unique space when you are able to get or create, establish and maintain technology partnerships. So absolutely sort of started in ATS CRM area supporting RPO and direct sourcing and staffing as well. Um, I've certainly supported um, staffing throughout my career and then you know, and then adding other technologies like globality for procurement solutions and where AI plays a role beyond MSP and RPO and into the other facets of, of external workforce management and perm talent acquisition and talent management. So it very quickly rounds you and you're on demos a lot but you become a, um, sort of a demo master if you will and really being able to suss out what a good demo looks like, that will then tell you that they will be not only a good partner but have the right functionality, um, moving forward when they're inside your ecosystem and most importantly your customer's ecosystem.

Speaker A: And I'm sure Vanessa, you'd agree that there's nothing quite like spending an eight hour, nine hour workday just on demos with providers.

Speaker B: Yes, I have, I've spent a few days like that. Yes, absolutely. Um, and um. Yeah, and I kind of sort of uh, as part of my intro I uh, did want to mention that personally I'm a working mom of three wonderful daughters, ages 7 5. Um, that is a ski that is behind me. I am. I always tell people when I first meet them, I am happiest when I am on a mountain or a beach. So love skiing and hiking with my family and friends and running and also just relaxing on a beach. So I live in, um, I think maybe part of why Chris and I are so close. I live in New England, so I'm in Rhode Island. So, um, the Boston area is quite close. So I've been able to make some of the awesome, ardent partners, uh, events over the years. So I think we're, we're a little, uh, you know, New England, um, centric over here.

Speaker A: So hard. Right, yeah, not a bad thing. Um, so, Vanessa, I mean, I remember one of the first conversations you and I had when you were back at ags, um, maybe a little over a year ago. Right. Um, and just hearing about sort of like the future of work centric approach that Allegis takes towards managed services and how it sort of wraps around the evolution of the extended workforce. Right. And so I, I have to think that you're in a very interesting spot because not only because of your history, right. The 15 years. It does make us sound old when you say that. Right. Like, this is the first year for me that, like in my Bio, I've changed 19 years to 20. So it's like, congrats. Thank you.

Speaker B: I think I'm supposed to say congrats with a number like 20. That's a big milestone.

Speaker A: It's huge. Right. Um, but, you know, obviously, I mean, given your background, given where you are. Right. I mean, AGS is a household brand and managed services, um, you know, you have a pretty good purview on sort of the state of the MSP market, right?

Speaker B: Yes. Uh, yes, I would say the short answer is yes. Um, so in thinking about the state of the MSP or, you know, cwm Contingent Workforce Management, um, market at the moment, um, as I was sort of prepping, prepping for this, and as I kind of read weekly, I think spend year over year in looking at some of our more public peers in our industry, it's still year over year. We're down between 1 and 8%, depending on which competitor you look at, what I will say is buyers are still buying. Um, I think overall spend might be 20, 25. We'll see once the analysts tell us. Uh, but what if it's a. If it's a same year over year, consistent year, or if we might be, you know, a Little bit ahead of where we sort of projected. So I think, I think in general the market is sort of status quo uh or static I should say um, potentially a little bit up. But in, in recent reportings it's looking like year over year at this time just a little bit between that 1 and 8% below um but I think in general more so than just the size of the market. Um areas that we've seen key investments um year over year I'd say 2024 to 2025 are around AI shocker. Um so AI, um, mid market and even small market solutions um in the MSP market more than ever I've heard the term modular which I had in very recent years, you know uh, related mostly to rpo. Modular RPO um has certainly been our modularizer Agile RPO has been something that's been talked about for a while and has been offered for a while but the term modular MSP was sort of new to me. I sort of knew it happened in probably in pockets but that um is becoming a more of a popular term and I sort of relate that um also to you know, mid market and small market solutions that clients more and more are seeking agile customized solutions. Looking for providers to be flexible to what customers need versus what we're you know packaging up and putting out um into the market. Um I would say um as everybody has a different name for it but we call it procurement solutions or services procurement, sow management, um, lots of innovations in that area. We um here at ags see immense growth in that area, have invested heavily, heavily in procurement solutions so much that we are being asked in um different sort of channels um to be part of procurement outsourcing, um, to be rated within a procurement outsourcing um environment or category. Um so that's bringing us into um categories with large consulting firms um and BPO companies that specifically offer procurement solutions. So that's really exciting and I think a testament to the customer buyer Persona really seeing a value in what MSPs are bringing to the procurement solutions area. Elevating, leveling up if you will with what uh we're able to provide um, including infusing AI into it um but really the solution itself becoming much more sophisticated. So personally within product strategy it's a, it's a pillar of ours and a um an area of focus. Um and I know we'll, we'll probably get into AI a bit later. The AH2 other will. Yeah so I think we're, I don't think you're allowed to do a podcast or a webinar these days and not mention that acronym. Yeah, you'll get a robot will be knocking on your virtual door. Um, so I think the other two areas, um, consulting and advisory, that's been huge. Um, I know we're, we're speaking mostly to msp, but I'd be remiss to not mention that in the RPO or per Workforce Solutions area as well. I think with, especially with rpo, I would say for that market taking more of a dip in the last few years and seems to be kind of coming back around. Um, and I'm very optimistic for 2026. But consulting and advisory has been something um, that many peers um, in our space have pivoted to and um, we're not too different to that. With um, the investment into Quantum Work Advisory or qwa, um, as part of Allegiance Global Solutions, we see the QWA division as a major um, growth factor for us and with the incredible consultant kind of power that comes along with that. And then of course with the acquisition of Talent Tech Labs as well, sort um, of adding another um, um, bit of fuel in our tank. Um, but consulting and Advisory I think uh, will play a larger role, um, and already does play a big role in both MSP and RPO solutions. Um, and then the last one, uh, before I'll hand the mic back to you, I'd say is Independent Talent Solutions as well as Direct Sourcing. I um, think we'll hit on direct sourcing a bit later. But Independent Talent Solutions, we've seen a lot of activity in, with conversions, acquisitions, et cetera. Um, but just in taking a step back and looking at the MSP market, that's an area that's um, that that's becoming noisy. I think in a good way that customers are demanding a proper sophisticated solution for independent talent. And our um, the competitive landscape has absolutely answered that in my opinion.

Speaker A: So. All right. Tons of unpacked there. Right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick some stuff out. So we'll take AI Direct Sourcing. That's, you know, we'll, we'll hang on to those for now. Um, so talking about rpo, right. I mean I think the excitement or the re. Excitement around rpo, right. Um is around the idea that you know, their talent engagement today, whether you're talking about you know, full time or independence or contingent talent or contingent labor, RPO brings sort of that extra level of like elegance I would say. Right. To recruitment. Right. And um, with businesses taking sort of like the skills first or talent centric or candidate centric approach towards hiring. I feel like RPO is probably one of the best fit solutions for companies that really want to um, you know, initialize uh, that you know, idea of skills based hiring. Right, so that's my first question for you. And then the second thing I know it's completely different, um, but the consulting advisory part of the MSP model. Right. I think what's really interesting about that is um, I, I think it was, and I know we had a conversation when you were at atrium back in 2020 but like talking with other providers coming out of the pandemic or in the midst of the pandemic a lot of businesses were sort of like focused on well what do we do, how do we react, how do we plan, how do we forecast? And um, I just love the idea that there was this boom in the usage of MSPs, not just tactically but strategically coming out of the, during the pandemic and coming out because you have to think, I mean there's so much subject matter expertise not just in your brain but your team. Right. So why wouldn't you expand that knowledge to uh, a continent workforce program? So um, all right, so RPO first and then we'll talk the consulting aspect right after that.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So rpo, I think in leaning into skills based approach, you know, skills first, CV second, um, you know as, as an example that is actually, actually one of our um, I would say innovative investments within the RPO solution because we are hearing clients ask about it but then we're also proactively um, you know going in with that type of strategy and we've, we've sort of dubbed it my um, my, my, my colleague that runs our international market. Simon Bradbury. You'll, you podcast and thought leadership, um, say you know it's not about the skills and his point in saying that is it's we've as an industry and an rpo, um sort of community, we've, we've leaned into skills maybe too much and are, are thinking about you know it's, it's about the work as well. And then we go into it with a work deconstruction approach first. So take the job spec or job description. Um, you can tell I've been working with UK colleagues for, for, for, for a bit more than, than I have in my last few years. Um, so you take the job spec, deconstruct it and, and um, you know whether that's utilizing AI and you know coupled with the we, we see it as a um, a hybrid of Human and AI to, to do that exercise but deconstructing um, the work into, into tasks. So um, and then taking those tasks sorting out okay, what what is tech or AI what is human, what is hybrid as an example and then really pulling out those skills um from the that initial, you know, job ah description as an example. So with, I would say with skills based where it's a holistic approach, recognizing skills are important but the work deconstruction is just as important. So taking that a bit further to more pointed answer your question around rpo. Um, absolutely leaning into that Skills um based approach or sbo skills based Organizations that that acronym was. Was popular and still is. Um, but looking at it in more of a, a 360 view. But we're absolutely I would say reacting to customer demand in that but then also proactively bringing um that to, to customers. I will say as much as I um, I, I'm sort of hoping that the North America market leans more into the quote unquote skills based, you know, hiring. I'll call it methodology. I will say that UK and Europe are, are further along. Um, but, but North America is right there. I mean companies like Gloat as an example and that have you know, internal mobility, you know, internal marketplaces which are usually coupled with these types of solutions are, are doing really well in, in the North America market. So I, I um, Personally I love the skills based approach and success profiles approach versus just CV and experience because I have friends that um, and I know you do too where bartenders make the best recruiters and you know, and servers make the best project managers or wedding planners make the best project managers in maybe in an IT role. So I love the, the sentiment that skills based hiring brings and it's um, it sort of, it enhances the art of the possible as, as my, my former boss Bruce Morton always used to say. Um, so, so I really like it and I'm, I keep a pulse on it. I'm interested and IT is playing a role within our product strategy. So.

Speaker A: Awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: All right, so, all right, we'll pivot back to the consulting aspect of MSP because I do feel like there's, I don't know, maybe pre2020. I mean obviously every managed service provider has offered that historically but in an age when you have so much happening, right, Like I gotta think that someone that sits on the CW program side, they're like okay, how do I navigate labor market? Which is really weird right now. How do I navigate a changing economy? How do I navigate Disruptions, how do I navigate? Um, you know, just general change and evolution. And also too, the other aspect that we, I know we're going to talk about AI, but how can you help me run my program better with AI? Right. How, what's, what should my AI strategy be? Right. So there's just so much more that uh, an MSP can offer from a consultative perspective. More than just like, all right, here are the different staffing suppliers you should utilize. Right. So there's, I have to imagine, you know, past five, six years that is a huge piece of any MSP's business. So I mean there's that question of like how much more strategic in the mspb. And it's got to be linked back to the fact that, you know, that consulting arm is just a big piece of what you can offer to your partners and your clients.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what potentially the consulting advisory piece potentially was a bit of um, an answer to Survivor. Survivor. Wow. The consulting and advisory piece I think was a bit of a survival mode response back in 2020 where you had asked me about at that time where it was okay, spend is down in rpo, it's at least flat in msp. You can argue that in a, you know, in a pandemic or in a recession, you know, obviously contingent, sometimes increases. But either way I would say peers in our industry leaned into consulting and advisory again as a, um, as a, you know, survival kind of component. And now it's, it is a strategic pillar of, definitely of ours and I know from, for a few of our, our peers or competitors as well. Um, and I think within, um, especially within the last couple years within RPO Consulting and Advisory, we've seen some really innovative solutions from competitors, um, in flipping to msp, I, um, would say customers are coming to us to ask how should we be integrating AI into our talent acquisition, talent management strategy. And then it's also beyond that, um, the asks have come look a bit more like BPO versus all, you know, workforce, you know, solutions related, which I think is exciting. So again it starts to take companies like Allegiance Global Solutions and our competitors and put us into these other categories, um, which I think is really, um, it's positive for the industry in general of how, you know, important the sector is and what we offer to our, to our clients.

Speaker A: So I think Vanessa, that's a good segue into the AI discussion. Right? The fact that in a consultative way you can influence how uh, a company may implement, deploy, utilize, adopt AI. Right. Um, but I think furthermore there's definitely a question in here for you is your general thoughts on AI in our space. Right. Because I'm sure you have some. Um, but it sort of puts I think a company like Allegiance in a very fun, interesting position because you've always been looked at as sort of like this very innovative of tech oriented workforce solution.

Speaker B: Sure. And, and thank you for the compliment. I think, I think some, some of my colleagues, we're very critical here at ags, so I would say some of our colleagues probably don't feel that way because there's, there's so much m. More that we want to do and I think we're always trying to better ourselves. So it's our, a bit of our culture. But it's nice to, you know. Nice to, nice to hear that as well. Um, so yeah, just to start with my general thoughts on AI I have to tell you over the last two business days I have heard from someone in my AI is a bubble and it's, it's not going to be as transformational as everybody says it's going to be. And there's some you know, basic automation with agentic AI but it's going to be micro um, wins essentially and that it's a bubble. And then I heard from a colleague yesterday that it's going to be you know, the sort of this innovate or die type mentality of like robots are going to have humans as pets. Yeah, exactly. So this is my sort of day to day but like could not have more um, you know, you know, separate sides of the, of the spectrum here with that view on AI. So my own personal view is you know, somewhere in, in the middle I am optimistic, you know in, in general as a, uh, as part of my personality. But I do think, and what we've seen with products, the product strategy framework that we've rolled out which uh, disciplines us within product development and solution development is um. We, and this has actually happened to us we've taken these grand ideas within AI of you know take a synthetic MSP project, uh, or program management office or synthetic PMO as an example. And it's like we're thinking clients will, you know, some clients may want that or you know, are demanding it, um, clients and prospects. And we almost kind of took, it's too large of a pie to attack it once. So what we're seeing success in is the bite size as I call them. Um, AI wins where we're taking very um, intentional workflows um and implementing AI for those wins. So taking the rec intake the Onboarding, the offboarding, et cetera, to improve consistency, um, you know, risk avoidance, decrease human error, et cetera. So I would say um, that in my personally my approach sort of mirrors that of AI is absolutely important. I've had many wins in my own, you know, workspace here in using copilot agents. And um, and I'm learning day to day there's certainly there are. I love talking to the early AI adopters that are at my company because every time I speak to them I learn something new. But I love hearing about their respective success stories in how um, they had a rec and take discussion and how that helped them prepare for that and how the clients in real time they're talking to their agent and getting, you know, information to their customer and um, and creating agents that can take transcription from 20 meetings that you've had. Whereas a year, two years ago that would just be notes on a SharePoint and an agent analyzer is able to take those notes and give you an answer in five seconds. So I'm a proponent of it again in sort of that bite size manner. And then I do think it will turn into an aggregate eventually. Um, but I think we need to move as far as the industry allows us or as far as our customers allow us. And, and we need to be aware of governance, um, and risk as well. I think as we've rolled out AI just even within our own organization, again we've had those early adopters that are kind of going crazy with it and like love that for you. But then it's also. Hold on, we need a governance model to manage some of this and make sure that the data is being shared in the right way with the right people, et cetera. So I'd say bite size with guardrail.

Speaker A: I like that. Bite size with garden. Sure, that'll be, that's a quotable.

Speaker B: Vanessa, do you think so you heard it here first?

Speaker A: Um, no. And I appreciate that perspective as well because I do feel um, and you know this too, like being in talent tech, right? Like you have to immerse yourself in innovation and AI is the tip top of innovation right now. But um, you know they're. And actually I'll take a step back like Ardent in future of work Exchange research finds that it's somewhere between 4 and 7% of businesses are like true real deal AI adopters. Right. Like they've not necessarily mastered it, but it's integrated well enough, it's being utilized well enough where it's a key piece of their operations. Right. The way that everyone's talking about AI, uh, you would think that number is seven or eight times higher than it actually is. Right. So, um, and I always say it's like a bucket of cold water on the AI conversation. But, um, I think it's a representation or reflection of the fact that many businesses want to have those governance models. Right. They want to be safe, they want to be protected, and they also want to ensure that they're doing all the proper things around AI rather than just buying into hype or letting excitement lead. Right. So I think it kind of fits in with what you were saying.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think it's, it's always, um, keeping the, keeping the value at top of mind of what, what, what are we, what is the outcome of creating this agent? Um, as an example. And I think, I even think the last time we talked, we talked about those high value tasks and low value tasks and like, you know, the low value, low value tasks are what we have automated with RPA for years. Right. And now it's like, well, now let's create agents for those. So I think just keeping in mind the intended outcome and take the hype for what it's worth, there's still value in that, in knowing what the hype is and viewing the adoption curve. But also to take it as a bit of a reality check with the surveys that come out of within the HR industry. I think I saw an article from McKinsey that 82% of HR professionals intend to use AI, um, in a workflow by the end of the year as an example. But only 5% are in a, you know, pilot or in practice, it's still

Speaker A: early, early, early age, early phase.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's okay to, to admit that too. Like, we're all still, you know, figuring it out. But, um, but yeah, I think it's, it's exciting in general. Yes.

Speaker A: Speaking of exciting, another topic I want to talk to you about before we wrap up is direct sourcing. Right. And like, this is probably one of those topics too that I think we probably originally geeked out on years ago. Um, but I definitely remember having a conversation with you right in the middle of the pandemic around how direct sourcing was a great way for businesses to sort of keep their talent communities intact and engaged. Because, you know, so many businesses in like Q2, Q3 of 2020 were, you know, total reductions in force, lots of layoffs, and just, you know, they needed to scale up, scale down like the second half of 2020. And a great Way to do that was with. With, you know, their own talent pools, talent communities, and, and direct sourcing as well. So, um, you know, here we are five years later, which seems crazy, thinking that 2020 was five years ago.

Speaker B: Math is not mathing.

Speaker A: No, it's not mathing for me either. Uh, but, you know, we're, we're here and like, direct sourcing is. It's, it's powerful. It, it has a lot of value. Um, and I know that a lot of, A lot of businesses and a lot of even like folks on your side. Folks on my side still don't necessarily have a hesitancy, but they have like that. What is direct sourcing? Right. So the definition around it kind of, you know, is differentiated. But, um, I guess my question. There's a question in here for you is what is the reality of direct sourcing? And, you know, where do we see it going?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. And direct sourcing is near and dear to my heart because at Atrium, I was, I was part of the team with Bernie Caputo, Theresa, really, that, uh, we, we felt that we created direct sourcing and we, we were pitching it to one of our, One of our top clients for what felt like years. And we're so excited when an RFI came out that was actually, it was called self sourcing. And then I remember that.

Speaker A: Self sourcing.

Speaker B: Well, yeah. And then the industry, and then it was dubbed direct sourcing. The worst name ever. Um, so, so. And Copilot always thinks when I ask about direct sourcing, direct material sourcing, it. Well, it thinks that I'm talking about SOW and procurement, so I've trained it though. Um, speaking of. Yeah. Um, so yes, near and dear to my heart was part of that team that really developed the direct sourcing, um, offering there. And then fast forward to today. Um, from an AGF standpoint, it is a necessity in what we do. Clients, um, clients are either asking for it explicitly or they're asking for it indirectly. So they're asking for cost savings, they're asking for increased quality in contingent talent. They're asking for methodologies that are used for perm talent acquisition to be used in the contingent space. Um, they're asking for talent communities as an example. And if we're, you know, when we're in conversations with customers, direct sourcing increasingly is the, Is the answer to a lot of those. Um, so customers may, May not know they need it until they have a conversation with us. You know, as an example, I think direct sourcing was a little bit, if you look like if you think about the adoption curve back in 2020, it was, it was the hype. It was, you know, everybody needs one. And then it kind of, I feel like plateaued. And it was like, you know, is this really worth all the hype? I really do think we're back on that hype cycle, um, of it really is because I think now programs are mature, seeing, seeing really positive placement rates with direct sourcing. I think a lot of companies in our space do a really great job of direct sourcing and I think both MSPs as well as um, niche direct sourcing curation providers, um, and I know even you know, staffing firms that are now offering this as well. I do think the lines get blurred with master vendor, as one would expect expect with direct sourcing. And what I will say with my sort of retransition back into ags with direct sourcing. I love what you said before, it looks different. It doesn't always look the same. When I always thought of direct sourcing was, well, yeah, you need full access to the brand and you need that 48 hour exclusive and you need the integration with the VMS and you need uh, a, uh, talent technology for it. And now we are offering direct sourcing with maybe two out of those four things or even one as an example. So, and I, and I know peers in our industry do the same. So I think you, you hope for the all four. But I will say the direct sourcing programs and successes all kind of look, walk and talk differently. Um, and that versatility within direct sourcing I really like and I think there's been a lot of creative solutions, you know, with it. So I, um, I love direct sourcing. I lead our direct sourcing product coalition, um, with, with uh, some of my favorites here, um, at AGS in the business. So really excited about what we'll do in that space from a product development standpoint.

Speaker A: Always love talking to a fellow direct sourcing nerd. And I mean now that I'm realizing it, you're absolutely right. I mean you were part of that team that really spearheaded that evolution of direct sourcing, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And um, the account that we rolled out, um, is now one of our clients here. So it's like sort of full circle to me. Um, and I love when I always say it's kind of like my best friends become best friends with each other because there's, there's moments that my, my alumni companies are now partners of ags. So it's just um, you know, it's Exciting. And I'm m like so relationship based.

Speaker A: So it's ah, that's what our business is.

Speaker B: Relationship fun. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so Vanessa, one more question for you and I know there's probably a lot you could say but don't um, feel pressured to you know give me 19 predictions. But you know we're you know a month and a half away from the beginning of another new year. Um, you know, what's Your outlook for 2026?

Speaker B: Outlook for 2026. I would say um, more. Even more focus on procurement solutions. Um, I would say expect more sophistication from companies like ags and peers in our industry. Um, I think customers will absolutely benefit from our competition with one another. Um, and uh, seeing more AI, um in that space, um, in assisting clients in really being more consultative, infusing uh, predictive analytics into SOW procurement, um, and buyers essentially.

Speaker A: Um, you talked about, you added SOW and services procurement in there so you get extra points for that.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't there like a, um, there's like an arcade game going of like, like the points where I'm sending saying these trend, these trendy things. Um, so yeah, I think more, yeah more focus on procurement solutions and more um, advancements I'll say, um, within the industry I think more of this which we're really leaning into orchestration of work if you will. Um, I think and what I mean by that is it's kind of taking our universal workforce model and blowing it up a bit whereby you know, companies leaning on workforce solutions providers for multiple channels. Um, there's the traditional channels of staff augmentation and now SOW is sort of becoming a traditional channel as well. Independent talent I'd say is a little bit traditional but still innovative. Um, but I think customers allowing us to be that orchestrator of the multi channels um to, to obtain the best talent when you need it. Um, I think that. I don't know that word orchestration keeps coming up so I think it'll keep moving. Um, and then just, I don't know another outlook for um, 2026 I think um, I do think RPO will again optimistic but I think RPO will grow in 26. I think we're seeing some early signs of it. So um, I'm positive about that. And we'll see more practical AI solutions I think within our space but also just in general, the business world in general.

Speaker A: Well I love the outlook very positive for 2026. Vanessa Miller, global Director of Product Strategy at Allegiance Global Solutions. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us in the future of work Exchange podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I'll see you again soon.