Stop People-Pleasing, Start Outcome-Pleasing w/ Jess Szivos VP of Customer Success at Invisory

SPEAKER_02: Let's play who's who in the zoo because you're slowly building your champions, right? Like in the oh yeah, I like so-and-so. Oh, she's responsive. Oh, she can do X, Y, and Z.

That I feel is the biggest part. You just have to break it down. SPEAKER_00: Welcome the Customer Unsuccess, the podcast where we cut out the noise and talk with real leaders about their hardest lessons in customer success and other go-to-market motions. I'm your host, Joe DeGrande, and in each episode, we're gonna unpack real challenges from real leaders.

Fail tech implementation, a strategy that didn't yield results for difficult customers. More importantly, we're gonna take those lessons learned and share them with you so that way you can avoid those same mistakes with your team. So if you're in customer success, sales, or other go-to-market motions, stick around to hear from the best. Now let's dig into it.

On today's episode, I'm joined by Jess Devos. She's the VP of Customer Success at Advisory. She's also a coach at Proven Success. Jess has gone from a master's in counseling to leading enterprise CS, and she brought her therapist grade discovery skills with her.

We dig into how she learned the hard way that a generic 3060-90 plan won't cut it, and how to turn that plan into a customer co-authored blueprint tied to real KPIs and outcomes. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you do too. Now let's dive in.

Um how are we feeling? Want to kick this off? unknown: Yeah, let's get on. SPEAKER_00: All right, let's do it.

So, Jess, thanks so much for coming on the Customer Unsuccess podcast. SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me. I'm stoked. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, this is great.

Uh yeah, we've had a couple conversations, a long, long overdue. I know it's a couple of uh we're here. We made it. I know we talked probably in the summer, but like we made it now.

If you know, when this goes live, we're recording like in the around the November timeline. But anyway, um, you know, if you're not familiar with Jess, she's actually the vice president of customer success at advisory. Um, so she's got also a lot of experience within customer success as well. So we're excited to talk about um the stories that you have lined up.

And I know we were talking about um, and this has come up quite a quite a bit lately. Um, there's a lot of uh chatter in the CS space. What it's hard to get in, but also two, uh, just given, you know, hey, like listen, a lot of companies are bringing people in. Onboarding sometimes could be either lacking or it could just, you know, maybe you're just kind of going, you know, like hitting the ground running too quickly, right?

So and I know we were talking about this, like, hey, we kind of need to figure out, you know, a process, right? And I think you kind of nailed that, and I've you know heard it before, obviously, but I'll leave it to you to kind of dive in. But I'm curious to hear the story of where you arrived to your own, you know, process. I won't lead the witness just yet, but I'll let you take over.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So it's so interesting because this is actually a career change for me into customer success. So I have my master's degree in counseling, and I was working in higher education and accessibility services before I sort of made the shift to tech. And you know, when I made the shift to tech, it almost felt like I was I had to start school all over again.

Um, so when I started at my company and I was, you know, it was a company where you do contracting work. So I do contracting work for a really big company, and I got you know put on a project, and I'm like, great. Like I could not tell you anything, but I could talk to everybody. So I got there and I was like, what do I do?

And you know, a lot of the times you expect people to like tell you what to do in your job, like this is it. Well, in this particular place, it was like we have to figure it out, right? And I was like, okay, like you know, what do we want? And then I kept kind of hearing people, they're like, Well, what can you give us in 30, 60, 90?

And I kid you not, I was like, I mean, I'm learning the word SAS right now. Like, I I don't I don't know what I can give you in like 30, 60, 90. And it was, you know, something that I was hearing over and over. Like, what are the KPIs?

What are the objectives? What are we gonna see out of this contract? And, you know, it was um what was interesting is that you can build a 3060-90 that fits you, right? SPEAKER_01: Sure.

SPEAKER_02: And what you need to do and what you need to accomplish, but how does that work and meet the customers' goals and metrics? So that's where I feel like that was like my kicker, right? So, like I built this 306090 and I was like, this is great. I'm gonna use this.

I have my blueprint, right? I'm moving for my next job, and I think I have it, I got it. I'm an enterprise customer success manager. I'm gonna give them my 3060 90.

I give it to my customer, and they're like, this does nothing for me. And I like literally, you could see probably there's probably a video, and like the blood just rushes out of my face, and I was like, huh. Okay, and so I, you know, I was like, okay, well, and I think the nice part where I love about customer success is that you get to be like that six to eight year old again and be like, tell me why. SPEAKER_00: Yes, so true.

Yes, exactly. SPEAKER_02: Like, if you were ever that kid that was like, well, why? Well, why? This is the job that you need to be in.

SPEAKER_01: Yep. SPEAKER_02: Because you can always go and I go, well, listen, like we can consider this a blueprint, right? Of what have we completed? What are your goals and KPIs?

And how can we build the 3060-90 together? And that was like my first successful customer, right? So there's like different ways I think that you can kind of look at onboarding and what you do. Ultimately, though, I think that I built the 3060-90 thinking this is going to work for everyone, right?

And this is how it works, and it's not. SPEAKER_00: So true. SPEAKER_02: It's not. So it's like, let's uh, but then when I got back into my why questions and I used it as a blueprint, like this has been my it was like almost an aha moment in customer success that I was like, oh, oh, you can go back and be a kid again, like, and that was like the fun for me and the problem solving.

And so I think that a lot of times you get a job, and and I remember this too when I started at one of my jobs, is I felt like I had a ton of onboarding, right? Listen to all these calls, read this, catch up on this, sync with these people, jump on these customer calls, uh, but like, and then it's like, okay, do you know everything? Great, go. And you're like, well, okay, like I and and people get nervous about it, and rightfully so, right?

Like, I think I think it's fair for anyone to say that they would be nervous. Um, but I think when you build your own toolkit, like I like to call it like in my head, I like to call it the customer success starter kit of what I would have, right? And I have my checklists, I have my 30 60 90 of what we're gonna achieve, and I have like my main success plan. These are all just like my blueprints to start with a customer.

Um, and I have, I won't lie, I have a blueprint of a kickoff deck. Like that is those are my I take it everywhere with me. Um, that's my kit. And I think anyone starting, like, build your own kit that works for you and and find your talk track.

Because I you can listen to so many people. Like, I'm sure people will listen to us and they'll be like, I have to say it like Joe says it. I have to say it like Jess says it. No, you don't.

I need you to say it like how you say it, right? So true. Yeah. What's your voice?

Because that's that authenticity and that subject magic expert that everyone's looking for. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%. No, I think it's um a lot of people fall in that trap of following a script or like a like word for word, like amongst their colleagues, and it's so it's so tough because it comes in authentic. And right, like at some point, you know, maybe in the beginning you could you use it as a as like a like a springboard, and then eventually you kind of get your own rhythm.

But you're 100% right. Um, you have to figure out your own momentum long term. Um it's it's actually interesting too. I kind of want to jump back.

The the why when we're talking about um, you know, as far as like building out like that 30, 60, 90, you know, plan with a customer. A lot of customer success managers, you know, even salespeople, right? Like, I kind of bring it back to almost like it's almost like pain selling, right? At the end of the day, keep digging further because you know you have that opportunity to at let the customer talk, right?

Like you don't want to be the one talking the most in that conversation. Go and figure out, like, let them the more you prompt them to keep going and going, they're just gonna let out let out more information, which is great for you to figure out how to solve their problems and so on. SPEAKER_02: I think that why so yeah, going back and like the one thing I did learn, which is it's kind of cringy, but it's it's really worth doing is I had to do this in my in my counseling too, is I had to watch myself.

And I and I learned a lot from watching for myself, and that you know, it people do not like awkward silent spaces, sure, right? But it's actually so good. Yes, right? It's so good.

It allows think everybody has a different way they think and learn and giving that person that space to you know really be able to articulate what they need to say, you're just gonna build so much customer rapport. You're gonna build your influencers, your champions, your you like just by having that. And so I think you know, active listening, it it's really hard. Like, I I don't I think people are like, I'm a good active listener, but if you go back and watch yourself, look at how long you talk versus how much customer talks.

SPEAKER_00: 100%. Yeah, it's it's unbelievable. And some sometimes you you take that step back, right? And you're like, oh yeah, I let them talk, and then you still chime in, right?

SPEAKER_02: And I and I also think too is like take discovery like a true discovery. Yes. I used to try to take discovery to solve the problem right there, and I learned that that was not a good idea, right? Yeah it's so much better to like help me understand the why, and like, okay, so who does this?

And like give me the give me the background behind this information, and then at the end, you know, thank you know what? Thank you for your time and sharing this. I really think I could take this back and let me deep dive into it more and pull out some resources and really show you how our product can help alleviate and then bringing that ROI value. Um, I think also to you know, same thing, like psych nerd, right?

Uh we can only handle so much. SPEAKER_00: Yes, so true. SPEAKER_02: You don't need to have like one interaction doesn't solve the problem, right? Like you're not there to solve that problem right then, right there.

And maybe you can't solve the problem, but maybe there's a different way to think about the problem. True. And you need the space to be able to do that. And by doing that, is like that's the go back.

That's your re-watching your videos, that's the looking over your notes, that's doing more of that investigative work to help come up with ideas for challenges that your customer is having. SPEAKER_00: 100%. Yeah, I think um, yeah, there's a lot to learn there. Um, it's it's interesting too, like on the playing back.

And I I think you mentioned something in the beginning, which really um it's something that when we when we talk about customer success, we're talking about the challenges that customers are experiencing. Um, but how you're trying to weave it into your own goals? I guess can we let's talk about that more, right? Because like you're talking about like, hey, how does you gave that example of the 306090, and I think the customer says, hey, this sucks.

This doesn't work, this doesn't fit our business outcomes, right? And our goals. So I guess like, what are some things that you've done in the past where like like is it just is it one-to-one? Obviously, it sounds like a lot of it came your background or listen in the story was enterprise, right?

So you're having more of those one-to-one relationships. But I guess like, you know, for the audience, like what are some strategies of how you weave those into the goals and like how you've done that and been successful in terms of you know, weaving into their business outcomes? SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so my biggest thing is I need to understand what the bigger problem is, right?

Sure. And then um, and it's so funny, and somebody said this to me, a very good female mentor of mine early when I started. It's who's who in the zoo? SPEAKER_00: Uh yep.

SPEAKER_02: And I I say that to everybody. I go, okay, so we're we're building this out, or this who's responsible what? Let's play who's who in the zoo and let's go by departments. This is what's going to work.

And like I break it down with them. The biggest thing is that I'm not making the decision, I'm making the recommendation, and I'm doing it based off of how they run their business, right? My whole goal is to not interrupt anything, right? Some of the biggest things of feedback that you hear are like, it's too much tech or it's too much to learn, it's too much X, Y, and Z, right?

My biggest thing is not to do that. So I want to break it up by chunks, right? And I need to start at the beginning and build the foundation. Who's who in the zoo?

Who do we need to do? And then you slowly add in and you grow and you you bring those people in because you're slowly building your champions, right? Like in the oh yeah, I like so-and-so. Oh yeah, she's responsive.

Oh yeah, she can do X, Y, and Z. Um that I feel is the biggest part, right? Of you just have to break it down, and it's hard, right? Like when you hear a one-year contract, you're like, for some reason, I feel like we all get it anxious and we need to do everything in the first month to show value.

SPEAKER_00: True. SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's and I'm like, why are we doing this? Like, let's slow down a second, right? And you know, this is where you get into hopefully, you know, your leadership team in customer success or experience is saying, This is the customer journey map, right?

Let's work on the milestones. Let's how can we hit those milestones? And like, let's start tracking how long does it take for us to get to those milestones? Sure.

Right. Yeah. And then that's where you know we can go back and evaluate. Like, do we need tech?

Do we need people? Do we need can our product do this? Like, let's figure it out, right? Um, I think the one thing I do love is that it's always growing, right?

And now we have the whole um AI. unknown: Yeah. SPEAKER_01: Right? SPEAKER_02: And like, how like how can AI help us in customer success and help especially the administrative tasks of customer success and the AI and being able to prompt like that's huge.

So um it's definitely like I I have I have, and I I know I have, have been on customer calls where I'm like, I'm going to solve it. Yeah today, I'm going to solve all their problems. And it like before it took a little bit in reflection of like, Jess, what are you doing? Right?

Like 100%. Okay. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. It's it's interesting too because um like we can't we can't solve all of them, right?

And it goes back to like people forget, especially when you know customer success, it it's this common misconception of like it's people pleasing, right? No, at the end of the day, you need to focus on their goals. And if we can't solve them, that's okay. We need to figure out what we can solve for, and if we can't solve for anything that like if nothing resonates as far as what we can solve for, then it's a whole nother conversation if they're the right ideal customer and so on and so forth.

But sometimes we just need to be honest and straight with that customer and tell them, like, hey, this is this is what we can do. SPEAKER_02: Their persona. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. SPEAKER_02: And I will say this, and like I learned this in um Rachel's customer success leadership class that has drastically changed my career impact.

When I know who I'm talking to, I know my exact talk track. unknown: Yep. SPEAKER_02: I know my people who are boots on the ground versus I know my people that want to talk the ROI and money. SPEAKER_00: Yep, so true.

SPEAKER_02: Understanding that it will get you so far, like in your career, like that just opened up the doors, right? That that allowed me, like when you know, you're sitting at that leadership table to go, okay, like you know, like someone churned. No, we lost 50K in revenue, right now. How do we make up that we have to make up that 50k in revenue plus additional, right?

Like of course, like I up, we upsold, like, and that this is stuff I try to teach my team, like now when they're talking. Um, you know, I I always say I'm I I don't want to say like a I'm a pretty passionate leader, I guess is the way. So I love all my team members. I want them to have goals.

I want to know how they're tracking towards those goals. I want to know what other things they want to look at. I had someone do that for me, and that has been, it was a game changer. It was, it was a game changer when I wanted to network and find a new job.

It was it like I go, I know you are not going to be with me forever. Like that's just not how these job markets work. But I want you to feel so confident that when you move to your next position, that you're you have those skill set that you're ready to hit the ground running. Um, and then all I ask is that you pay that forward.

For sure. That is my biggest thing because it is so hard to find good mentors. They're out there, right? Yeah, you got a mentor where you just have a coffee and then that's it.

And then you have somebody who's like invested in you. Oh my goodness. SPEAKER_00: That's it's a gold mine. It's great.

SPEAKER_02: It is, it is so good, and like, you know, you and I are gonna be doing this forever, right? Like the other people doing it. So, like, let's give them that and these opportunities to be able to do it. And um I've had such great mentors along the way.

Like, and it was all because like I dove in, right? Even when you don't know, dive in. SPEAKER_01: True. SPEAKER_02: It's okay.

It's okay. I'd rather have someone go come to me and say, listen, here's an issue I see. Here's a solution. If even if we can't do it, the fact that you took that step, like, it almost makes me come to tears when it happens.

I was like, this is so wonderful. We cannot use it. But it is so wonderful that you did this and you prepped. And like, that is how you show up.

And and really, that's what it is. It's all anybody ever wants is for you to show up and respond. SPEAKER_00: 100%. Yeah, I think um it's it's interesting because um the it's the markets where where it's at today, um, there are a lot of opportunities even within CS.

Um, and then there's also people that are reluctant to apply for roles, they limit themselves. And I think there's there's a lot of opportunities just to I it kind of goes back to, I forget where I saw this. I I quoted quite a bit. Um and and I don't know if it's an actual statistic or if it's just again, you name your quotes that people just rattle off on, you know.

You name your vehicle or uh area. But anyway, the point is it's like if you look at a job description and you're already doing either 50% or over on the roles and responsibilities, you're already qualified or potentially arguably overqualified in a lot of cases. And I think a lot of people forget that, and it's like it's okay if you don't have all the pieces on a job description because it kind of goes back to you don't know what a company's looking for. And some sometimes, now going a little sidetracked, but sometimes there's like this these underlying things that are not in the job description, like, hey, oh, we need someone that is maybe kind of goes back to your perspective, right?

Not in tech, right? Maybe they're in the background in psychology or counseling and things of that nature. I've seen that happen with enablement as well, if we're kind of going shifting gears, where they're looking, oh my gosh, they're a teacher or they're a professor. They understand how to like engage an audience and making sure that they know to build a curriculum and what to learn.

So there's a lot of opportunity that's out there. Um, and just it's really just changing you know, way, you know, your way of thinking. I know we were talking a lot about that too, about like growth mindset for CS. And it also like uh, you know, we talked also about CS having a voice too and kind of building up their own career.

So I'm curious, like, you know, if you have stories or your perspective on that, and even based on your experience too. SPEAKER_02: Yeah. I will say for so long I felt like I didn't have a voice. I felt that and you know, honestly, I I couldn't pinpoint what it is, right?

You know, um, I I you know, I felt like, okay, well, I'm I'm just gonna like this is this is it. You know what I mean? Like sometimes you I was really stuck at the title. I guess now that I've really kind of evaluated it, I was really stuck at the title.

So I didn't feel that like, oh, I'm not a manager to say X, Y, and Z, or I didn't want to bring this up because you know, my boss, I and like there would be times where, you know, at one of my like where I was an enterprise customer success manager, and I would try to say, like, oh, should we, you know, could we do this? And it was really shot down. Um, so I felt like every time I was getting shot down by my ideas. And then I it just kind of after a while, you really start to question like, is it me?

Is it is it like what I'm coming up with? Is it, you know, like what is it? And it wasn't until I really started to invest in myself watching podcasts, right? All right, I guess not watching.

Well, I guess you can, right? SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're on video now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Like, so listening to podcasts, reading more of like growth mindset books, uh, understanding customer success, reading about customer success books. I, you know, I have an amazing colleague I work with, you know. He we look at the Wall Street Journal every day and we send each other articles back and forth, right? Of like industry and what's happening.

What it was was that I was articulating the day-to-day, right? I wasn't articulating the overall, right? SPEAKER_00: Sure. SPEAKER_02: And in the goals and the ROI.

And all of a sudden, once I started having more of these conversations with my colleagues, I was like, oh, I'm just not articulating it right. And then once I I got there, and you know, I like I have a seat at the table now, and I have to say that I don't have the imposter syndrome. I I feel like, no, like this is my opinions matter, and here's why. And and also really understanding your data.

If you do not understand your data and you can't have a story with your data, it's really hard to make that articulation. Um, and I think one thing that I do love about customer success is also too is you get to combine data with the voice of the customer, right? SPEAKER_01: True. SPEAKER_02: This is what they're going through.

And I've had customers, I mean, like they've told me so many personal things, right? Like you end up getting to know about like their families and birthday parties, oh yeah, you know, weddings and like all sorts of things, right? Um it that's where I feel like that's the difference, and you get to come in. Uh sometimes I feel like I miss that as a VP, right?

SPEAKER_00: Like, not being close to the customer, yeah. SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I'm like, what are you doing? SPEAKER_00: Like, I not not to mention when you are brought in, you're like, maybe not always the best conversation. SPEAKER_02: I know.

Yeah. Oh, she's here. Like, one thing I do try to do now is I try to make myself known, right? Like it's great road shows of just like I'm just saying hi.

How is it going? Like, I see your I follow, I'm basically like, I'm following your journey, and I like I see that you're doing great, some of these things, and it's like that has also made a difference because I still, you know, still get to get in there because I miss it a lot. Um, but yeah, I I think it's I think it's that, and then you know, you want a growth mindset, but you really have to protect your boundaries. You can dive in, and I have done this, right?

Where I was the person, and I remember being at like my first job, and I was always like, I will answer you. I will answer you, I will answer. And then I got to be known as the well, if they're not answering you, message just. Uh always answers, right?

SPEAKER_01: Right. SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I'm sitting here and I'm like, it, you know, you're what 75 emails deep. You got like five to six pings going on, and you're just like, oh my goodness, like, what did I do? Like, I created my own monster.

Um, and that's where like I, you know, I really started working on my tone of like, uh, you know, this is when I'm available, this is when I'm not available, you know, really kind of protecting myself because you can't, I I can't, I can't be a good mom, I can't be a good wife, I can't have that outside a good coach, right? When I do my coaching. I can't have that if I have people that are just like, why are you not answering me? You know, like, and half the time, like, let's be real, it's not an emergency.

SPEAKER_00: No, of course. SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, like this is not an emergency. Like, you know, click this button. Oh, it worked.

There we go. Like, happy. We could have found this, and you know, then you're always following up. And please look at our knowledge base that has all these instructions on how you can troubleshoot.

Like, on yeah, you you have to set like you have to set your own boundaries. I like you can I'm you like it it's addicting to have a growth mindset when you get it. SPEAKER_01: Yeah. SPEAKER_02: Um, but then you want to be like, well, I can add this on, I could do this, I can experience it.

SPEAKER_00: Well, it's that's it's interesting, right? Because it it is a balance. Um, and it's like it's I think it's kind of always like the growth mindset's interesting because and there's a lot of books out there. It's good.

Like I think it's good to kind of always it's like kind of um oh my gosh, I had Brad Davis on the podcast before. He runs SuccessPan. He mentioned um pretty good quote, like as far as like the con analogy, but nevertheless, it's always like brushing up on you know what you're doing, right? Whether it's connecting with people or you know what you're learning.

And I think um it's pretty smart, but at the end of the day, it is still a balance. And I think like in making taking that step back that it's like, hey, yeah, as much as you want to be you know a superhero, that's great. At the same time, it's also foc focus focusing on that impact, like what's going to have the best impact, you know, and obviously how does it how do you balance you know life within the mix of things? Um, it's just super interesting.

I guess like I kind of wanted to take a step back too. Like on you mentioned something really great on because it's it's similar to setting boundaries, right? Also, too. Like if you're working with even leadership, setting boundaries there.

Um, but you mentioned also like as far as like going back to custom not customer voice, CIS's voice, and you know, managing um you mentioned data, and I think it could go in a lot of different ways, but I'm uh I I I'm a data guy, like I love data for building a business case, you know, and obviously it's you know, for you know, my background in digital, it's obviously key. But I'm curious, in terms of from your perspective in the past, like where has data really helped you in terms of your voice?

Like anything in particular, like or yeah, the like recommendations for CS bringing to the table as far as like to get whether it's an approval on whatever project, right? SPEAKER_02: Yeah, prioritizing. SPEAKER_00: I'm curious. SPEAKER_02: Especially for like startup life, right?

Oh, sure. You know, in in the first job that I had, I really had to collect it, right? And you know, one of the things I did actually when I started here at Advisory is I actually went through calls to look at the qualitative and quantitative data. SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, right?

SPEAKER_02: I feel like such a nerd. It brings me back to my research class, right? But I feel like, but anybody who loves data is is probably like I have a t-shirt that says data nerd. Um because I love it so much.

I mean, as a leader, right, I need the data to justify the funds. SPEAKER_00: Sure. SPEAKER_02: Right? Like really looking at it as hey, is this a one-off situation that we may have to like roadmap it because it's not right now, versus, oh no, this is like a really big issue.

We need all hands on deck, you know, that like that type of stuff, right? So it's um so when I did that, I was able to see, well, first off, where are our customers? SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right? SPEAKER_02: Where are they on the customer journey?

Have we built a customer journey, right? Like building that all out, I mean, is so much fun. I like I have just the best time with it. And so we were able to like build our like how do we want this to look?

unknown: Sure. SPEAKER_02: Right. And being able to kind of pull that data, I was able to see. So this is how long it's taking them to get listed, and how long how can we cut this down?

What can we build? Is there automation? You know, and really same thing going back like the basic steps again that I talked about, that's exactly what I did here, right? And now we have like we have a ticketing system, we have everything running in Salesforce, our Salesforce is the truth.

Um, another big thing is like I'm not shy of like, I think a customer is the customer of the company. SPEAKER_01: True, right? SPEAKER_02: You hear a lot, and I've heard it too, is like it's on CS. It's on CS, it has been handed off and it's on CS.

And I like I push back there quite a bit because I have heard that, and then like, so you're saying this one individual person for potentially I have been on conversations where contracts are not what we offer, but we still have to provide it. How do you like how does how is that fair versus well, let's take a step back here, right? Is there something that we need to do? Do we need to hire an outside contractor for this portion?

Do we need, you know, and like working? And I think also, too, is it's really important to build a great relationship with your internal partners, right? SPEAKER_01: Yes. SPEAKER_02: How many times have you said, oh, this person doesn't talk to this, product doesn't talk to marketing, marketing doesn't talk to product, CS doesn't have a good relationship with product, and you know, you're like you hear all these things.

And I think one of the things that like I did as an enterprise CSM and as even just somebody just starting out in cust as a customer success manager is I actually like introduced myself to people who work in those departments, maybe not like the VP level or whatever, but I was like, I'd love to get 15 minutes to like understand your day-to-day. SPEAKER_00: True, a hundred percent. SPEAKER_02: And that I mean, that built great relationships, like relationships I still have, right?

Like, even though I left, it's you know, this is I got to I want to help my customer, everybody wants to help. And when we can all have that same cohesive language and goals and mission, like it just thrives, it really, really thrives. And I absolutely like it's so much fun. So I you know, I've been there where nobody talks to everybody, but then secretly it's like I just went ahead and did it, you know.

Um, I like I guess there's that saying, right, you can ask for forgiveness, right? SPEAKER_00: True, yeah. SPEAKER_02: But I don't think it's wrong to go out and talk to other people, right? Like out there.

It's okay. Like, no one's gonna be mad that you went and talked to somebody from product, you know. I would love it if someone was like, I went and talked to someone from product, we chatted about this, and it seems to be like a commonality, and it's like, oh, well, this is good because no one brought it up to me, right? Um I love it when when my leaders take that step.

And and I've done it too, right? Like you make a name for yourself, right? I like I love a good reputation. Um just like I always want someone to be like, that is the person that you want on your team.

SPEAKER_00: 100%. Yeah, it's it's really it's great when, and this is I again, this is great advice, you know, for people out there because it kind of goes back to growth, right? You're learning different functions of the business, you're building those relationships, you're finding different problems within organizations, or you know, maybe for a better better word, opportunities, right, for it to have an impact on the business as well. Um I mean, listen, this this has been awesome.

Um, Jess, we we've we've covered a lot of a lot of points. Um, I'm curious, like as far as like if we had to kind of summarize like some key, like key takeaways, right? About um, you know, to help the audience, right? Like in in you know, whether they're just starting out their CS career or you know, they're shifting in different roles.

I guess like we talked a lot about you know, 3060-90 in the business, you know, setting boundaries and then having that growth mindset and having a voice. But I guess like beyond that, like what else would you add like to kind of for take away for the audience? SPEAKER_02: You know, um I one thing I would definitely add is uh follow your leaders in your industry, right? Like take the time to like read their stuff because even if you took one thing away, that's one thing more that you get to pack in your toolkit, right?

Um, you know, I I'm very I'm very proud of my books of business, right? I what I like is that like I want to leave my stamp on there. SPEAKER_01: Sure. SPEAKER_02: So how did I get them there?

You know, like you have your framework, you have your playbooks, you have everything that you need to do, but really how is it Joe's book of business, right? How like what are you doing? Because then that can help somebody else on your team, right? Like, oh, I didn't really think of it that way.

Um, and lastly, like invest in yourself. You are worth it. Now I've been there, right, where like I get it, like me and my husband, we both worked in higher ed. I had a baby, we bought a house, I had zero money, right?

And then looking at courses that are like a thousand dollars or two thousand dollars, it panics when you like you're living paycheck to paycheck for sure. Yeah, um, what I you know challenge people or uh ask them is like if you see something, see if there's a way that you can break up payments, right? Yes, see if there's a way, because if that's something that's gonna level you up and you're gonna feel confident, you deserve it. SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02: Like I think it's so hard because life life is hard, life is challenging, and but you deserve it. If there people that like offer these courses and things like that, they're typically flexible. SPEAKER_01: Yes. SPEAKER_02: They want you to take the course, right?

So see if there's a way that there's something, or if life happens and you're on the payment, like make sure you have that communication. Um, that is the stuff that I think is really important. That, you know, if it's just one course, that's something on your resume. Um, and I know we talked about jobs, and I guess this is like one last, one last thing, and then I'll stop.

Um, when you're writing your resume, right? And I give this feedback a lot to my clients, you need to think of this as your paper hype girl. SPEAKER_00: Love it. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: This is what I've done. This is like, and if you need, like, I I'm your hype girl, right? Like picture this image right here of me like, yes, yes. Yes, yes.

Like what think about what you've accomplished and slap it on that resume, right? SPEAKER_01: So true. SPEAKER_02: And even something really small is actually probably something really big in somebody else's eyes that you don't see. Oh, yeah.

So um hype yourself up and put it on that resume. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it. No, it's so important. I think uh a piece of that also uh like tactically, you know, to kind of go back if that's a word.

But anyway, the point is as far as uh you know, like to kind of look back to like self-reflect, I think a lot of people forget because they're so caught up in their day-to-day, like they don't realize like the impact that they have. So, like again, like writing out those key results in a resume, like that those there's a lot of great things in there, and you just might might not be aware because you're just so used to it. So, like I think I always tell people too like take a step back, like quarterly, monthly, whatever the sequence, you know, cadence, um, to just kind of look back on what you accomplished because um that'll help in that that resume building.

SPEAKER_02: It's weird, right? Let people feel like, oh God, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to do that. But I love to do it, especially now, right? We're in like the November, December time frame.

It's good to look back on your year and reflect and what did I do and what have I accomplished, and what are some of the challenges? And you know, I always like I always try to do this. New Year's resolutions are you know will be like a huge thing. Um I try to say, pick one goal.

What that's it. Don't do five, don't do, don't go down that that just one goal, and it's something like small of like, hey, I want to read a Wall Street Journal article one time a week, right? Something like those little tidbits build up and they will build habits, and that you will feel so good when you're like going into meetings and you're like, hey, you know, I read this Wall Street Journal article in like health tech industry, and it was saying blah blah blah. Like, has this have any impact on you?

Like, have you seen anything? That like what a great conversation starter. It then send the journal article after, right? Like, yes, how many LinkedIn articles I've sent to customers, and again, like that data nerd, sure, like it I am that person, right?

Um, it's it's really important that you kind of invest in you, and um, but like have fun, have fun in customer success. It is such a fun role. SPEAKER_00: It is. No, this is awesome.

Um, I guess like without like in in terms of like wrapping up here, in terms of like ways in which we we mentioned a number of different resources in which people could go, but if there's if there's like, do you have any like books that you recommend or particular even podcasts that you like for other learning? Because obviously, like, you know, there's tons of different courses out there, but I'm curious as far as if there's any that you kind of gravit have gravitated to in the past that have been something to be worthy to mention to the audience.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, I guess it depends, right? Um, I have the book. I think it's um The Customer Success Professionals Handbook.

SPEAKER_00: Okay, yep. Yeah. SPEAKER_02: That one, I'm like looking up here. I'm like, um and that one has been instrumental, right?

Especially operationally speaking, different ways of thinking. That one's been really good. Um I think is it like the I I am halfway through. Is it the mind of a CEO or the brain of a CEO?

SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm not familiar with that one. That's interesting. SPEAKER_02: Like that. Um, that one is really good as well, especially for like articulating um mind of a CEO, the world's business leaders about talk about, yep.

Yeah, that one is really good on by Jeff Jeffrey Gar Garden. Yes, it's that one is really um really good. And then uh for all of my like self-help people out there, um, I listen to a lot of Mel Robbins. SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Mel is great. I I love her her mindset, her thinking, and it's it's really straightforward, right? And it's small, right? I I think the when I give out like 9,000 things, I feel like people are like, whoa, like I that's it's scary, right?

It's scary, versus if I go, hey, um, oh, it's the CEO mindset. That is the difference. That's the one I have. Um, sorry.

SPEAKER_00: Okay, gotcha. SPEAKER_02: CEO mindset. Um so back to that. Like, but when I give just like small tidbits, right?

Just start. I mean, what I love is start with your blueprint 306090. Right? Like start building your toolkit that works for you.

Um, and having you know what's been helpful. If you think it can be an asset to a customer, build it. Right? SPEAKER_01: Sure.

SPEAKER_02: And try it. Like, I like, hey, you know what? I've used this Google form to gather information. I've given, I've written out this instructions before and followed this format, right?

Don't be afraid to share your knowledge. SPEAKER_00: Yes. Love it. This is great.

Um, yeah, we'll we'll add the links to the dis uh in the description to all these. This was super helpful for the audience. I guess like where just where can everybody find you? SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um I am on LinkedIn.

Yeah, I am definitely on LinkedIn. You can find me. Um, I think it's Jessica, it's Jessica Sevos. Um, but you can also, you know, I think I have it as JL Sevos.

You can message me there. I'm really responsive on it. Um, you can add me just to I post a lot of stuff, um, especially around go to market and customer success. If anybody's interested, I think go to market and CS are is a huge link in a chain, and we need to be talking about it more.

So um I have that out there. So, yes, please if you want, and I love coffee. So if you ever need 15 minutes to chat, let's see if we can find a time. SPEAKER_00: I love it.

No, this is awesome. This is awesome. Yeah, definitely. We'll include your your LinkedIn in the description too, so that everyone could kind of connect.

But uh bless it, Jess, great conversation, lots of great learnings here. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Look forward to you know catching up again soon. SPEAKER_02: I know, yes, me too.

Thank you so much. SPEAKER_00: Awesome. Thanks, Jess. That's a wrap for today's episode.

Thanks so much for listening. If you got some value from this conversation, hit subscribe, leave a rating or review, and share it with someone who's also out there trying to build a better customer success or go-to-market strategy, even if it's messy along the way. And if you want more frameworks, tools, automated playbooks, check out Johda'sTechTouch.com and subscribe to our newsletter.

That link is in the description. Thanks so much for being here. Keep building, keep learning, and I'll catch you on the next one. Quick note before we wrap: this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only.

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