Saying Yes Too Much Hurts Results w/ Lindsey LeFaivre VP of Customer Success at AchieveIt

Speaker A: Uh, this is. I had my first baby during COVID I worked up until, like, I went into labor because, like, what else are you gonna do? And instead of like asking people, I'm literally in the hospital like a couple hours after giving birth, like, hey, by the way, I'm now gonna be out.

Speaker B: Welcome the Customer Unsuccess, the podcast where we cut out the noise and talk with real leaders about their hardest lessons in customer success and other go to Market Motions. I'm your host, Joe De Grande, and in each episode, we're gonna unpack real challeng leaders failed tech implementations, a strategy that didn't yield results or difficult customers. But more importantly, we're going to take those lessons learned and share them with you so that way you can avoid those same mistakes with your team. So if you're in customer success, sales or other, go to Market Motions. Stick around to hear from the best. And let's dig into it. On today's episode, I'm joined by Lindsay Lefevre. She's the VP of customer success at Achieve it. And we dig into the moments when saying yes actually hurts. Like the weekend she built out a 1500 branching option workflow that the customer didn't even need. And she got her wake up call when she informed her clients about her maternity leave in the delivery room. So Lindsay shares some real tactics for work life balance and rituals that prevent burnout. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you do too. Now let's dive in. Cool. Well, good stuff. Should we, should we kick this off visually?

Speaker A: Let's do it.

Speaker B: Awesome. Well, thank you, Lindsey, for coming on the Customer Unsuccessful podcast.

Speaker A: Oh, thanks for having me, Joe. I always love connecting with you. It feels like we're just like having a fun conversation. So join.

Speaker B: And that's, that's the goal of these. I always like having fun conversations, love talk about, like different stories and all that fun stuff and what's going on and, you know, in CS as a whole. But. And for those of you that are not familiar with Lindsay, we, uh, actually met at the Atlanta Customer Success, uh, conference, but it's also community as well. So if you're not familiar with that, definitely check it out. We've had a couple of other members from the community on the show as well. Uh, but. And yeah, Lindsay's also the vice president of customer success at Achieve it. And I said that right. And for, for quite some time. It's awesome. You definitely put your stakes in the ground there.

Speaker A: So, yeah, uh, just over seven years, I guess, which is crazy. It's Like a lifetime, but also like, not that long ago.

Speaker B: You know, it goes. It goes quick. Ye.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Oh, man. No, well, well, good stuff. Well, actually, like, I guess, like, on that note, probably. Probably a good segue. We were just having conversations on, like, just like also starting your career. I know you've had, I don't know, like, you're probably what, over a little over a decade in, in. In terms of experience and customer success. Obviously, like, again, you've been at achievement for quite some time. But when you're growing your career, there's obviously, again, hence the, you know, the, you know, the point of the show. Unsuccessful stories. Right. Or just growing pains. Right. And I think, um, a lot of our listeners could learn from that or they get kind of psyched out or in their own world and they. It's hard to take a step back. And we were talking about like some crazy stories about like. Tell me more about the story. I think it was like some project deadlines to hit or just like aggressively hitting some goals, like, early in your career. I'm. I'm excited to tap into that one. I'm sure we have a couple others.

Speaker A: We always have like, some imposter syndrome. And you're like, I've got to do it. I've got to say yes. Uh, because if I don't say yes, then it's like a bad thing, right? And yeah, it's so funny. My background, originally I went to school for nutrition. I thought I wanted to do school lunch and like, change the world. Um, and I just. It was so hard when I graduated getting a job in nutrition. So I just kind of like got a job doing whatever. And I had these friends that started their own company and they said, you know what, I don't know if you've heard of customer success, but we think you'd be good at it. Come do it for our company. And I was like, all right, what do I have to lose?

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Um, so I went to work for them and. And we were just a small little startup. You know, there's like six of us. We're just grinding away, doing whatever we can, fully bootstrapped. So it's like we're just doing anything and everything, not saying no to a customer. And he had this customer, uh, who's using this, uh, platform we had as a quiz building platform. And they wanted to have basically like, branching logic. If you select this, then give them this option. Well, if you think about branching logic, it can get really complex really quickly.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: And we were really young and we're like, yeah, we can do that, no problem. And so they wanted this thing done. They had a deadline of like, Tuesday, and this was on a, like a Friday morning when I was talking to him. Okay, yeah, I can do that, no problem. Well, I didn't realize that what they wanted was going to be 1500 different options that you could, like, have on this simple quiz that they were building out. And so I'd already said yes. And at this point, I literally spent, no joke, 24 hours building this out for the customer because I didn't want to say, like, have you thought this through? I don't know if this is going to work. I just wanted to say yes, because what are you going to do? Small bootstrap company, every customer counts. Um, ended up being, you know, you talk to them on Tuesday and it's like, oh, they don't really want that. It's not going to work out. It's like all this time doing it because I didn't want to say no. If I just said no, it would have been better for me. It would have been better for the customer. They ended up churning anyways. Like, it wasn't a good use case, but it was just one of those situations where you're afraid to say no or even let me think about it. You just want to say yes right away. And I think so many people early on in their career just jump into, yes, I'll do it. And I don't want to be seen as a person who's not going to do it or say no to a customer. So we just do it without even thinking it through.

Speaker B: So it's so interesting because this is. This is applicable, I guess, also in a lot of different ways too. Just even from project management, you know, right? Doing projects, understanding. Also just even, you know, within selling, too, right? Because, like, it sounds like it's a lot of. It was probably just not taking the time to kind of vet out in this case what the ask was. Would you agree?

Speaker A: I mean, honestly, it was like math in our heads, right? Like, yeah, you only want this.

Speaker B: It's easy.

Speaker A: And we didn't realize, like, oh, there's so many different options. Oh, okay. Um, I didn't think through that. It seemed really easy in my head until I wrote it down. So it's like not project planning, right? It was just like, oh, you want 15 questions with, you know, five different options for each one, totally fine. But no, for each one, there's a different question that they are led to. There's a different answer. They could get. And so it just got really complex without sitting down and actually thinking it through.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And I think that happens a lot where we just don't think it through and we say yes. And then when we think it through, we realize this wasn't right. But at that point, I'm afraid to tell the customer. I already told them yes, every customer counts. Like, we're so early on in our career just I had to do it and I did it and I regret it to this day. I would have done something completely different.

Speaker B: Like, you know, no, thank God I

Speaker A: didn't have kids back then.

Speaker B: Well, a hundred percent. Right. Because like again, now you're, you're spending because it sounds, it said. You said it came in Friday morning, so.

Speaker A: Yeah, Friday morning.

Speaker B: So. So from then until that Tuesday, you're essentially, uh, just grinding sounds.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah. No, I mean we had a lot of those like grinding instances in that, like, you know, early startup world. I think everybody who like worked in a startup in their early 20s did the same thing. It was just like what we did. But uh, I think if we sat back and thought about it, we probably would have been a lot more successful and like put a lot less work

Speaker B: on ourselves, you know, more efficiency.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100. 100. But we're just afraid to say no. It's like, I will do it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what my work life balance is going to be. You know, I'll work 12 hour days. And that's like what we did. In Hindsight, it's always 2020. Right. But like looking back at it now, it's like, what impact did that have? Like, was there really that big of a difference? Like if I told them it's going to take two weeks versus two days, would they've been upset?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Probably not.

Speaker B: No. It's true. I think, I think it's a good call out. Right. Um, and it goes, it just, it's just asking deeper questions. Right. But I guess like, so it sounds like in your particular scenario that was it, was it just more so of the culture of the organization that is just instilled in everybody. Like just the customer's always right, we to yes, the customer. It was just more so like at an individual level, just based on your colleagues and what you were kind of watching is a little bit of both.

Speaker A: I mean, it's like, you know, I think like we all had like workaholic parents and we just felt like we had to get stuff done, uh, like all the time. And that it was like, I've got to prove that I can do this and I'm not going to say no. So I think it was a little bit of both, but probably mainly on me where it's like I was afraid to say no. You know, it's my first time working in cs. I have imposter syndrome. I've never did this. Like, I went to school for nutrition. They just said that I would be good at it. So, like, I'm gonna do whatever it takes because I'm gonna be successful.

Speaker B: No, it's. It's interesting, right? Because, yeah, I mean, it's definitely. You were kind of just. You're not thrown into it. Like, you took. You took the opportunity and it was just more so again, that imposter syndrome, you're like, all right, well, I'm just gonna take, you know, just hit the ground running, do whatever it takes in order to just make sure there's no. I don't hit a roadblock. There's no bumps in the road, but in reality, just, you know, you could almost essentially burn yourself out too, if you continue that path. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so many people do. I think so many people, especially during, you know, like, Covid got burnt out because they're doing the same thing. We were talking about this earlier. I was like, Covid, what else are you going to do? I guess I'll just work. Yeah, just like get things done. And it's like the end of the day, people just got so burnt out from that.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, 100%, I think. Um, yeah, Covid was actually a pretty. A pretty big wake up call for a lot of folks. Um, because I remember a different organization I was working at and the, the hours, like there was no, like, official hours, but it was just more like, hey, if you, if you wanted to give guidance, it was like 8:30 to 6 and on Fridays it was like a half day, like, that you would take. And then, you know, that way you, you know, just enjoy it.

Speaker A: So you had your work life balance.

Speaker B: Yeah, work life balance. But the problem is, is remembering that it's like, oh, yeah, it's covered. Like there's not much I can do. Slash. All right. Like, I'm already kind of. And also to the beginning stages ago, you really couldn't do anything. And then it was just almost rewired our brains. So, yeah, definitely. Um, trying to break that habit has been. It's been. I mean, it's crazy. It's been five years and still, I think a lot of people are trying to break it.

Speaker A: I Know, I just feel like we're always plugged into. We were talking about this earlier with working remote where it's like, we don't have that commute to decompress and to like, yes. Uh, you can't have your laptop up. And now it's like, oh, well, I'm just making dinner. I'll just have my laptop propped up. It's fine.

Speaker B: 100.

Speaker A: Is it really that important? Like, no, you can unplug. Like, I switched away from an Apple watch, like, a year ago, and I feel like my anxiety level just dropped because it's like, yeah, I, uh, still see it all the time on my phone. Right. But I'm not, like, getting the Phantom vibrates. I'm like, oh, wait, okay. I just know the time. I don't know that I got an email or Slack message.

Speaker B: It's. It's. The Phantom vibrates is a real thing. I still feel out of my pocket all the time. Like, I had an Apple Watch. Now I just use it strictly, like, for fitness. But, like, then I reverted back to the phone. It's just like, oh, no, that's just my phone, like, just bouncing around my pocket. Or maybe it just didn't do anything. Now it's just psychologically, I think there's, you know, something going on.

Speaker A: So my husband did the same thing. The Apple watch is just for working out. And then he switches to a regular watch during the day.

Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. If I can make, uh, my philosophy is now, because I got it for health. I'm like, if I could make it through my workout, I think I can make it through the day. I think so. I should be. Yeah.

Speaker A: But I feel like it's those little, like, work life balance things where it's like, make it where you don't feel as plugged in all the time. And as a young professional, like, new to a company, you are afraid to do that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Unless you have somebody that's good examples. I feel like, like, a lot of times it's like, oh, I can't let people know that I left my desk for 15 minutes to take the dog out because, like, I can't do that. Like, that's not normal. And it's like, that's totally fine.

Speaker B: Totally normal.

Speaker A: Yeah. But people are afraid to do that. And, like, and you're young and you feel like you got to prove yourself. And that's the biggest thing that looking back on, I'm like, I wish I hadn't thought that way for so long.

Speaker B: For sure.

Speaker A: Like, you know, my stress My anxiety levels would be so much lower. I'd probably have so many like less gray hairs because I'm just like constantly plugged in.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And knowing that like that's okay. And kind of have your non negotiables like I have blocked on my calendar now. I'd never do this before and I have it school pickup time. It's like, yes, uh, that's, that's the time that like, hey, I'm gone. You guys know I'm gone. If you want to pay me during that time, fine. But I'm not going to reply back to you because I'm in the car 100.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's important to have those non negotiables because it goes back to like burning out. You kind of need to re. Re. Reset the brain.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, unplug and making sure that, wait, you come back as your 100 self. But I mean, listen, it's tough especially you know, if you are starting your career right. You're going to have that natural inclination. I mean not everybody, but you know, a lot of folks, a good amount of folks, we're going to want to make sure that the. Hey, I want to make sure I get this right. To kind of prove themselves. But it's goes back to the, the keyword, the balance, you know.

Speaker A: Well, I think a lot of it comes from your leaders setting that example.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so many people that I've worked with in the past are just like overachievers that are constantly on that are first in, last out, you know, type of people. And it's like, if that's what I'm looking up to and that's my example, then I'm going to follow that same pattern. And where I don't. Like you don't see the work life balance. Yes, necessarily. And so like you have to be cognizant about like let me set a good work life balance so that way other people know that that is okay. So like I don't have on my calendar that it's a private event. It is literally school pickup. So that way people know, being transparent, like this is my balance that I have. Like I get on at 7 o' clock in the morning, but I'm not at my desk from 3:15 to 4 because I'm doing pickup. And like that's just how it is. And like that's my non negotiable. Yeah. And so kind of having the give and the take, I think. And a lot of people don't, they don't see that because they don't get great examples of it.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, for sure. I think it's, uh, like that kind of an important takeaway. It's like, hey, life happens. Right? Like, there's we're still human and there's things that need to get done, you know, like actually kind of brings to the next point. Right. I think, you know, you have. You have kids, you have school pickup. You know, that's a balance. I know we're talking about a pretty. Pretty crazy story. You know, when you were.

Speaker A: I know when I tell this, my CEO Is going to be like, God, why did you do that? I did not tell you to do that.

Speaker B: Hey, listen, set it. Setting. Setting the record straight that, uh, this is probably not the best thing to be doing, I guess.

Speaker A: Yeah, this is. This is an example of what not to do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That, um, I had my daughter, uh, July 2020. So still like, you know, peach Covid. We're married, we're wearing masks everywhere. Um, you're not really leaving the house. So I worked right up until I delivered because what else are you going to do? It's covet. All I could do is go for walks or work.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: So it's like, that's what I did. All the good Netflix shows. I was done with, like, you know, I couldn't just, like, leave early. And so I remember I was five days overdue with my daughter. She was born six days late. So I'm working past my due date. Any day could be when I'm gone.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: I had an out of office, like, ready to go. But I didn't tell anybody because, of course, give access to my email when I'm gone. You know, like, I don't have to log in and, like, put on my autoresponder. But what did I do? Within, like, a couple hours of having my daughter, I'm on my phone in the hospital, turning on my out of office, emailing my customers that I'm out. Here's the person to talk to. And like, it wasn't necessary.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, what was the game? I mean, taking a step back, I don't know.

Speaker A: I saved somebody 10 minutes, you know, like, they could have done that push. It would have been fine. Um, you know, my m. CEO Would probably be like, why did you do that? And it's just like, I don't know. I just thought, like, I'm gonna do it, so I don't ask anybody else to do it. Sure. I'm not gonna ask for help. Everything will be on me. And it's like, feel okay. Asking for help in those moments because it's not a big ask. Especially like, you're having a baby, you're in the hospital. Hey, can you send out my out of office? Like, sure. No, I was doing it myself. Yeah. And it wasn't even like, I just like, could have turned on the out of office. And if somebody emails me, it was like I was pressing send on these draft emails I had created to let each of my customers know I was going to be out. Completely unnecessary.

Speaker B: Come on. At that point. You got it. We gotta. I mean now, like, now rethinking, it's like, hey, automation firing. Maybe that's a new automation play. This is my digital CS background coming to play.

Speaker A: It's like, easier now

Speaker B: sending a signal, like, okay, baby, here. Now fire off. No, I'm kidding.

Speaker A: Uh, but like, literally they have that now. Like, you could just press one button and, uh. Yeah, I didn't have that in place back then.

Speaker B: No, totally. I mean, listen, I think, um, it's definitely. But it goes back to. Right? It's, it's. It goes to like, old habits die hard, right? Not to bring up like such a cliche saying, but, like, if you. It's hard to kind of break those habits. And it's why. It's like even going back to the original story, like, going back in your career, if you could kind of set that precedent in your own mind, you know, it'll. It'll be for your benefit in the future. I mean, sure.

Speaker A: Sets a terrible example for others, right? So there's other people seeing that and they're like, oh, I guess that's what you have to do. And you have a baby and you go out and leave like, she was plugged in all the time. And it's like, I shouldn't set that example if I'm plugged in. Like, fine. But like, I shouldn't let everybody know that I'm plugged in because that's on me if I want to be plugged in. But I don't want everyone thinking that's an expectation. And that's an easy way to set an expectation is, well, I did it. Everybody else could. And that's not the right way to look at it. Right?

Speaker B: 100. Yeah. And I think, like, you know, we were talking about, like, just generally, like culture in general, like when we're talking about before the actual podcast. And I think that's a lot of what new employees do too, right? Whether they're early in their career or, you know, 10, 20 years into their career. Right. They're going to, there's going to be like the unwritten rules that you're just not going to want to, you know, instinctively ask right away and not be as folks. You don't want to look like, um, like the person to, that doesn't want to work. You just want to kind of feel it out. And by kind of watching how other people react, you kind of have to, all right, like take, take some cues. Right. Maybe some are wrong versus than others, but they could pick up bad habits and it's something you have to, you have to watch out for. Yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker A: That's why I try and be transparent about what I'm doing. Like, hey guys, my daughter has ballet on this day, so you won't see me online at this time, FYI. So they know that it's okay because I hate when people still ping me and they're like, is it okay if I go vote for an hour? And I'm like, yeah. I mean, do you have the time on the calendar? Yeah, go do it. Like, get it taken care of. Like your stuff's going to get done. I'm not concerned about it. And I think that's the other thing people are afraid to, to say, hey, is it okay if I'm a human and I go do this for a little bit? And you got to make it okay for that to happen.

Speaker B: A hundred percent. Yeah. And I think it goes back to, um, what you mentioned in the beginning. Right. And like, I definitely like pride companies in pushing this ethos. It's just like, hey, we're all adults, right? Like, we need to get stuff done. And it's like you should be focusing on the results at the end of the day and what you deliver, if you're able to deliver that within the time that you're able to do it, great. Like, if you need to get things done, great. Like again, those outside of work, you know, things are going to impact, you know, mind, body, etc. And you're not going to be able to bring your full self to work anyway. So it's still going to be, you know, a chain reaction or domino effect, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: As far as down the road.

Speaker A: And I feel like the biggest thing people need to do that I did not do in my career early enough and I do this more so now is say what resources you need and like, what are your non negotiables? So like, hey, I need to go do this. Is that okay if they say no? Maybe that's not a great culture. Maybe that's not the company you want to be at. Like, sure, you know, but if they're like, if they understand you're a human and you have to go do pickup four days a week or whatever it is at 3 o' clock and they say no, then it's like, okay, well, maybe that's something that I need to think about if this is a place I want to be. Like, if you have the ability to do that, go and do that. Like, you should have a company that supports it and let you have that work life balance that you need.

Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. And I think it's. Yeah, it's definitely having the right company be the right fit for whatever you're trying to accomplish or that resourcing too, right? Like, I think you bring up a good point. Like, they might not say yes immediately. It's like, all right, but like, even if they're willing to provide something, right? Like, okay, maybe the organization, especially, like, if you're in office, right? Like, I know we're. We're pretty much remote, but like, all right, we have aftercare, right? Like aftercare for kids. And so I know that's been coming up quite a bit lately because I know child care, that's a whole nother topic of conversation. I'm personally not even there yet, but many friends and family members. Oh, yeah, it's brutal. Um, I'm just like, oh, man, is this what I gotta look forward to? I'm like, this is great.

Speaker A: But I think part of it, it's like going back to that big project where I spent all that time, you know. Yeah, I worked for a small org, but I didn't go to, you know, my founders, my bosses, to say, like, hey, guys, I need support. I need you to lean in and help. They would have 100% done it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But I didn't do that. So it's like the same thing. You might have something that has to get done. And we were like, yes, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna take it on and I'm gonna do all of it. But this might be a situation where you say, hey, I need some help and some resources to meet this deadline because I can't do it alone. And I think oftentimes we are afraid to say, I can't do this alone. I need help. So one of the things that I have my team do every Monday in our stand up is say, this is like a major project I'm working on and if I need support or not, because they might say the same thing. Two weeks in a row. And I might say, hey, is that something that you need help on? Do we need to pull in some resources for you because you've brought it up a couple of weeks in a row or kind of. What's the timeline on that? I want them to feel good about saying, this is what I'm working on and this is where I need support versus just shouldering that all themselves.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Because a lot of times these things, it's like it's outside of a meeting with a customer. And so if you look at just calendars, it's like, oh, you got plenty of time. You could be doing something for a customer that's bigger than a bread box, if you will. And like, maybe you should pull in another resource. But you feel like, I can't bring in another resource because so and so did the same thing before and they did it themselves. It's like, no. Feel okay raising your hands? Yeah, you might need some support here.

Speaker B: 100%. Yeah, I think, I think that man, like either managing up or just like flagging it is so, so, so important. I think, like, again, it goes back to where, you know, I think it was another leader you were mentioning, or I think it was probably before the podcast. But like about, like, hey, like at the end of the day, they're adults too. They need to know how to communicate. Right. And you could, you could essentially set the stage. But at the end of the day, if they don't speak up, there's. There's only so much you can do. Right. I think. And that goes back burning out. That could be just resources for a particular project. Removing those roadblocks if, you know, with different key stakeholders, etc. Those are all crucial, but if you're not aware of them, there's not much you can do.

Speaker A: Yeah, I can't support you if you don't tell me what you need support on. Right?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah. If you tell me everything's good, everything's fine, and then I find out that you're working 12 hour days over and over again, I'll be like, not everything's fine. Like, why didn't you tell me about that? We could have helped you. We could have given you resources. I had somebody one time that they didn't tell me they didn't have a second monitor. And I go, how have you been working? And they're like, well, I just thought I had to work up one screen. I said, no, no, it's m, like working with one hand. Let's get you a second monitor. We can annex that or not, we'll get it there in one day. Like, it's not a big deal. Uh, and it's just like you have to tell me because I had no idea.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And how can I support you if

Speaker B: you don't tell me 100%. Um, it's so crucial. Yeah. As far as like being able to speak up, you know, and that different. That also works like from peer to peer too. Right. Like as far as like with different functions, you know, like some people. I've seen this a lot happen too, where people are doing jobs of other teams where it's like they could actually support you. Not even down change. It's like cross functionally, you know, and that can happen as well. Just not speaking up. So, um, this is great. I mean, I guess like, as far as like some key, key things to keep in mind. We. We've touched on a lot of different topics. I'm not wrapping up, but I'm just curious as far as like went a lot of different areas and I'm trying to. So if we're looking at uh, it's communication up. Right. If we're trying to tell the audience, like, hey, what are some key things to keep in mind? It's communication up. But like, what else? Like what are some. Some kind of high level, like tldr. Hate using that phrase. But like it's been top of mind lately.

Speaker A: I know. The things I think about is like work life balance. And there's instances where it's not going to always be 50, 50, 50, and that's okay. But you have to know, like, at which point do you need to give more and do you need to give less? So there might be a point in your career where you're giving more to your job, but you shouldn't be doing that all the time. It should have like seasons. Right. Like ebbs and flows and kind of the same thing where there might be instances where it's like, hey, I've got to give more to my family and I'm not going to be on as much as I did and kind of knowing like when you're at that point and you kind of need to make that change and it's not always like giving 50, 50 to each. It's giving your best in each one at the time that you need to get your best. Right. And so like I was talking to somebody and she was saying, you know, it's not my responsibility to make sure that my team has a good work life balance. It's my responsibility to support Them and what they need to have that. But they're adults, they're responsible for it. I shouldn't have to say use your pto, go to your kids fall festival. Like you should be the one that says, hey, I'm going to my kids fall festival. I need support here and I should be able to give you the resource you need to make that happen. Right? I should let you have that work life balance. And so I think it's kind of having those non negotiables and being able to be clear about it and knowing what it is. So she was telling me, you know, I go to yoga at 4:30 on Wednesdays and people know, don't bug me on those days because I'm at yoga at that time. Bug me afterwards if you want to. And then she has a young daughter as well and she said people know that I'm not going to be on from 5 to 7:30 because we're doing family time.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: If it's something that's really important, send me a message. I'll see it after 7:30. But like that's my non negotiable time frame where like I'm not going to be pulled into a fire drill because I have other things that's going on and I feel like that's something you have to make sure that you're clear to your team that you have those set and you're not always on. So that way they feel good about having those set for themselves.

Speaker B: No, I, I absolutely love it. I think um, it's, it's definitely some good takeaways and I think like it's a good reminder, right? We don't talk like we've had a ton of episodes on this. We don't talk about this enough. Right. And I think everything's been a hustle especially like the past five years. There's been a lot of change especially there's a lot of pressure on CS as a whole. Like right. Like now we're, look it's, there's, there's always been like this weird debate right of like is it account management, customer success, like who's responsible for what. And now it's becoming increasingly more where CS is a revenue function and responsible for that revenue. So there is a lot of pressure but it's still, you know, this essentially these ethos need to still be followed, right. Like you still need to look out for yourself as a person and making sure that hey, you have a good like work life balance. But also too, I think it's a good point that it's kind of like waves, right? I think like you said, like it's

Speaker A: like always within reason, right? Like, it can't be like, hey, by the way, I can't work every single day from 8 to noon. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's not gonna work out. But if you're like, hey, I need to take an hour this time every day, but I'm starting early, is that okay?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Make that happen, you know, so it's like there's gonna be instances where it's like, no, that's, that's, that's not work life balance. You kind of have to give and take in different situations. It can't always be all the balance and all the work. It's gonna ebb and flow100.

Speaker B: No, I love it. I think, um, it's definitely. And, and also too, if we have a, have uh, a leader that's bought into that, cherish it, you know, Like, I think it's, it's. There's a lot of obviously companies now that do it, you know, and I think it's great, but it's not, you know, the perfect world out there. But like, if you have that opportunity, you know, be, be direct, be direct. And what you need, those, those non negotiables and making sure that, you know, it's, it's a win, win for both. I think it's like selling that too. And that fact is, is important for, you know, for people.

Speaker A: But, um, I think if you're at a stage where you're like interviewing at a company and you're wondering what is their culture like? Because a lot of times you don't know until you're in it. Right?

Speaker B: It's true.

Speaker A: You can ask the question like, uh, what's work life balance like there? Like, how do you guys support it? And if they give you an answer that's like, oh, you know, that's on you and that's it. Uh, okay. Or if it's, you know, what I, I believe and I need to give you the resources, but you need to make sure that you set a balance that's right for you. Okay. That might be a place that I want to work at. Um, so you can kind of ask those questions or ask them like, what does work life balance look like for you in your role? And let them talk about what they do. If it takes them a while to come back with an answer, then, you know, they're probably just grinding away, working at the time. But if they say an answer like, oh, you Know, it's actually really important for me to always pick up my daughter from school and to do bedtime. So I always make sure I have that set. Then, you know, they have good work, life balance, you know, that they care about their employees, they have a nice culture. So you can kind of ask those questions, like, what does it look like for you at the Org to figure out what it's going to be culturally before you start there?

Speaker B: 100% love that, love that advice. Um, you know, and it's funny because your. Your background, Lindsay, I didn't know that. You know, prior to this podcast, it wasn't nutrition. It's fascinating to me. Uh, but now, you know, obviously you've been very successful in, like, customer success, you know, being 10 year over 10 years in the game, I believe. But I guess, like, where do you go for your learnings, right? It sounds obviously very much in the field, so to speak. Maybe dating myself by using a terminology. But the point is, like.

Speaker A: But honestly, though, I did love, like, the Atlanta community. The Atlanta customer success community is great. And one of the reasons why is people are actually there to, like, help you and not sell stuff. I remember you and I having a conversation, and I was saying how we were going to be implementing, um, the Zendesk AI chat, and you're like, hey, if you need any, you know, if you have any questions, my sport, let me know. And a lot of times people do that, and then they're like, and here's my card for my consulting services. It was like, no, I actually, like, want to help you. Like, yeah, uh, that's what I want to do. And I feel like that was one of, like, the great places you could go where you could make those true connections. And there were a few people I remember at, like, my first conference that were like that, that, like, I made actual connections with, and it wasn't a, oh, add me on LinkedIn and that's it. Like, people actually want to help you. Um, but one of my favorite resources that I actually have my team going through right now is this book. You've seen it, like, probably everywhere on LinkedIn. Uh, the strategic Customer Success.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Uh, and you might think, like, uh, I've been in CS a long time. I don't need to read that. I know everything. Uh, it's so good. And there's so many things where it's like, oh, good, I do that. Like, that means I'm doing okay because we have that imposter syndrome. It doesn't matter how long you've been in the game. Like, you still have that every. Every once in a while. So you'll read it and you're like, yes, I do that. Or you'll get ideas like, oh, I. I didn't realize I should be asking those questions. Or this is great for my team to read. So I have my entire team reading it, and it's allowing them to just think more about the, uh, conversations they're having with their customers. And it's not always, are you using our tool? It's, what are you doing with the information you get from our tool? Like, how is this helping your life and making it better? So they're having deeper, more strategic conversations that are really getting them, um, to the point of, yes, they do see value in us and they are going to renew, which is great. So one that I highly recommend. Um, we're doing it kind of, like, in chunks. They actually even have a book club on their website that tells you, like, here's questions you should follow. But it's a really good one. Um, actually, Christy, uh, did the forward on that. So she was on your podcast not too long ago. She wrote the forward on it, which is really cool.

Speaker B: Awesome. No, 100. I definitely, definitely got to check it out for sure, I think. And yeah, uh, Chrissy was on the podcast for sure. And, you know, she's great insight there, so I'll have to check it out,

Speaker A: you know, and honestly, her LinkedIn's a good follow, too. I mean, she puts a lot of nuggets on there.

Speaker B: Def. Yeah. Highly recommend. She's got great nuggets of information, and I think, you know, it's really, like, a good takeaway from, like, these books and just, like, whether podcasts, you know, Whoever posts on LinkedIn, whether it's Christy and others, the validation piece, I think that's like, a really core part. Like, one new idea. Sure. Like, hey, what's working? What's not great? But also too, like, the validation of, like, hey, this. Oh, my gosh, this is great. This is what other people are doing. You know, it's more reassuring of your, like, strategy. I mean, I think that's really important for, uh, you know, for members of the team. But. But that's awesome.

Speaker A: I think just CS in general, like, the community of people in cs, they want to help each other. I feel like nobody wants to guard their secrets, like, in other industries. It's like, whoa, that's a secret. I can't tell you. And CS is very much like, oh, let me tell you what's working for me. Let Me see if this helps you. And that's one of the things that I love about cs. And I think that's why, like, my friends back in the day who started this company looked at me and said, you'd be great at this, because I had never heard of it. Like, I was trying to do nutrition, and then they're like, no, no, come do sas. Come do cs. Um, and it was probably like, the best move that could have ever happened. Happen for me.

Speaker B: That's awesome. No, it's. It's funny how things work and how they pan out. I mean, there's a number of people I've talked about, talked to, and they were just in completely different industries, unrelated. And they go down this path, and it's great. You know, it's a good path. It's fun, and it's. And like you said, it's a great community to be around. For sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well. And, you know, it's not a situation. Like, when I was younger, I always wanted to be a CS leader. It's like, I didn't even know what

Speaker B: that was, you know, 100%. It's, uh, early in my career not, you know, like, something that just really struck me was it was kind of in the similar situation. My career was actually. First it was actually criminal justice, then it was law. Then eventually I shifted to business. So I kind of had a close, you know, relation to his marketing. And then it was like, all right, you're gonna be an onboarding rep. I'm like, what's that? I'm like, okay, it pays. Sign me up. Let's do it. I'll apply. And that's all. She wrote that paper. I am 10 years later. CS, Account Management, the whole thing.

Speaker A: So I remember my, uh, my college advisor told me in my first meeting with him that your degree doesn't matter unless you want to be a doctor or a lawyer. It just shows you can do something for four years. Um, and that has, like, stuck with me for so long as probably, like, the best advice I ever got where

Speaker B: it's like, it's true.

Speaker A: When I didn't go into nutrition, it wasn't like, the end of the world. It was just like, oh, well, my degree showed I could do something. Like, it was valuable for me at the time. Great. Like, have it up on my wall. Do I use it? No. But, like, I use aspects of it, right?

Speaker B: Yes. No. 100%. I think that's such a good way of putting it. It's just like, hey, you were. You. You came to a place and you did stuff for four years and you walked away with the degree. So that's definitely good advice for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Well, good stuff.

Speaker A: This is.

Speaker B: This has been great, Lindsey. I really appreciate the, you know, the candor and the stories. This is awesome. Been awesome. Um, great resources. We'll include those in, in the, uh, the links to them in the description. But, um, where could everybody find you if they want to connect?

Speaker A: Oh, I. LinkedIn is always a good place. I. I promise I will see any message and I will probably respond back to it. Unless you're really salesy, then I won't. I'm not as good as some people at posting stuff. That's a good place to find me.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: And then, you know, old school. So Instagram and Instagram.

Speaker B: All right, cool. Well, well, we'll include the handle then in the description and of course, your LinkedIn. But, um, no, this has been awesome. Lindsay, thanks so much for coming on. Really enjoyed the conversation and, uh, we'll hope to chat with you soon.

Speaker A: Ah, yes, thanks so much, Joe. It was great connecting and I, uh, hope the weather stays nice for you up there in New Jersey.

Speaker B: I'm hoping. I'm hoping.

Speaker A: Mild winter, right?

Speaker B: Yes, Mild winter. That's a wrap for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening. If you got some value from us this conversation, hit subscribe, leave a rating or review and share it with someone who's also out there trying to build a better customer success or go to market strategy, even if it's messy along the way. And if you want more frameworks, tools, automated playbooks, check out jodestechtouch.com and subscribe to our newsletter. That link is in the description. Thanks so much for being here. Keep building, keep learning, and I'll catch you on the next. One quick note before we wrap. This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The ideas and opinions shared here are of my own or those of my guests and don't reflect the views of any current or former employers, clients or partners. We might reference tools, platforms or companies, but nothing shared here should be taken as fact, endorsement, or criticism. Do your own research and always consult your team or legal counsel when making any business decisions. This content is not legal, financial, or business advice. It's just us, uh, sharing what's worked, what hasn't, and how we've learned from both. So thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next time.