Chaos Threshold: Startup CS Vs Enterprise w/ Maranda Dziekonski Chief Customer Officer at Fexa

1 00:00:02,479 --> 00:00:05,120 SPEAKER_01: If you are somebody who is thinking about going from 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,199 a bigger organization, what is your true threshold for chaos? 3 00:00:09,359 --> 00:00:11,759 What is your true threshold for ambiguity? 4 00:00:11,919 --> 00:00:15,599 You may think, okay, with just having to go figure it out. 5 00:00:15,759 --> 00:00:17,199 Test that narrative with yourself. 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,879 SPEAKER_00: Welcome the Customer Unsuccess, the podcast where we 7 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:24,719 cut out the noise and talk with real leaders about their hardest 8 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:27,920 lessons in customer success and other go-to-market motions. 9 00:00:28,079 --> 00:00:31,120 I'm your host, Joe DeGrande, and in each episode, we're going to 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,679 unpack real challenges from real leaders. 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,280 Failed tech implementation, a strategy that didn't yield 12 00:00:37,439 --> 00:00:39,520 results for difficult customers. 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,560 More importantly, we're going to take those lessons learned and 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,960 share them with you so that way you can avoid those same 15 00:00:45,039 --> 00:00:46,399 mistakes with your team. 16 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,280 So if you're in customer success, sales, or other 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,320 go-to-market motions, stick around and hear from the best. 18 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:53,840 And let's dig into it. 19 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:57,280 On today's episode, I'm joined by Miranda Dekonsky. 20 00:00:57,439 --> 00:01:00,479 She's the chief customer officer at FEXA and one of the most 21 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:02,799 generous community voices in CS. 22 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,239 And we dig into the real differences between Enterprise 23 00:01:06,239 --> 00:01:10,319 DS and an early stage startup CS function from processes to 24 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,560 politics to the chaos topic, as well as if it's a career fit and 25 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,760 how both candidates and hiring leaders can navigate interviews 26 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:18,719 to find the right match. 27 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:22,560 Plus, we talk about Miranda's recent cameo on the LinkedIn 28 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:23,920 Lunatic subreddit. 29 00:01:24,079 --> 00:01:25,359 I really enjoyed this conversation. 30 00:01:25,519 --> 00:01:26,400 I hope you do too. 31 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:27,439 Now let's dive in. 32 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:28,640 But let's kick it off. 33 00:01:28,719 --> 00:01:31,840 So Miranda, thanks so much for joining the Customer on Success 34 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:32,319 podcast. 35 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:33,120 SPEAKER_01: Thank you. 36 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:34,000 Thank you for having me. 37 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:37,599 I know we've been trying to do this for what feels like years 38 00:01:37,599 --> 00:01:37,840 now. 39 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,680 Um, but here we are. 40 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,040 We've arrived. 41 00:01:41,359 --> 00:01:41,920 SPEAKER_00: It's weird. 42 00:01:42,079 --> 00:01:45,280 I've been in a weird place right now in a time of the year where 43 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,319 it's like things are either moving too quickly or too slow. 44 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,480 And it's like it's moments like this where I'm like, oh my gosh, 45 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,359 when was the last time we spoke? 46 00:01:51,439 --> 00:01:53,120 And it just like flew by, which is crazy. 47 00:01:53,359 --> 00:01:54,079 SPEAKER_01: I have no idea. 48 00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:58,319 It was way earlier in 2025. 49 00:01:58,640 --> 00:01:58,879 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 50 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:01,760 All I know is I was in shorts and a t-shirt. 51 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,439 So that's just tell me enough wearing it. 52 00:02:04,159 --> 00:02:05,760 SPEAKER_01: And I'm wearing a Christmas sweater, right? 53 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:06,400 There you go. 54 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:07,200 There you go. 55 00:02:07,519 --> 00:02:07,920 SPEAKER_00: Perfect. 56 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:08,719 Very festive. 57 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:09,680 I love it. 58 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:11,120 Well, good stuff. 59 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,840 And if you're not familiar with Miranda, uh, she is a chief 60 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,759 customer officer at Fexa, has a wealth of experience within 61 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:18,800 customer success. 62 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,840 And uh I know we have a couple of stories we want to dive into. 63 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,879 And I know um it's interesting because I talk to a lot of you 64 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:27,759 know, people reach out, obviously, you know, in terms of 65 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:30,240 the market too, what's going on with customer success, people 66 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:30,960 trying to find new roles. 67 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:33,680 And I know you also do, you know, your own um, you know, 68 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:35,680 kind of giving back to the community, which is great, as 69 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,240 far as calling out like people within your network, which is 70 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:38,719 awesome. 71 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:42,639 Um, but I, you know, I also feel that there are a lot of people 72 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,960 that forget the other parts of the role where you're different 73 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,719 doing customer success at different types of 74 00:02:48,719 --> 00:02:51,199 organizations, whether that's an industry or also more 75 00:02:51,199 --> 00:02:52,719 importantly, the size. 76 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,319 And there's different aspects of it, whether it's just the in you 77 00:02:56,319 --> 00:02:59,280 know the internal politics of things of how things get done, 78 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,360 different stakeholders and so on. 79 00:03:01,599 --> 00:03:04,000 And I know just before we kind of kicked off the recording, we 80 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,560 were talking about a couple stories around that, as far as 81 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,840 like, hey, like what happens when a CSM kind of works with a 82 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,400 larger org or if they go to like a startup. 83 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,479 So I would love to kind of dig into that because I know the 84 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:15,680 audience is always curious. 85 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:16,479 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 86 00:03:16,719 --> 00:03:20,479 So just a little bit about my journey that'll help add uh a 87 00:03:20,479 --> 00:03:24,080 little bit of color to the thoughts I have. 88 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,919 Years ago, we're talking 20 plus years ago, I got my start doing 89 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,439 kind of customer relationship management. 90 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,719 It wasn't called customer success back then at a company 91 00:03:36,719 --> 00:03:40,319 that was a very large$40 plus billion dollar a year company. 92 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,560 I spent nine years there managing a portfolio of 93 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:45,360 accounts. 94 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:49,280 And it was my job to make sure that they had everything they 95 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,039 need, um, that quite frankly, they were successful. 96 00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:55,599 Uh, and the stakes were really high there. 97 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,000 Um, you know, we were working with very large chemical or 98 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,759 sorry, we were working with very large automotive and also 99 00:04:03,759 --> 00:04:04,960 pharmaceutical customers. 100 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,879 So you think, you know, just GM, Toyota, AstraZeneca, Bosch, 101 00:04:09,039 --> 00:04:09,599 Ford. 102 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,120 I know I threw something in there that wasn't pharmaceutical 103 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,519 or automotive, but you get the idea, these really large logos 104 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:19,120 that everybody knows. 105 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:26,000 Um, and you know, in this organization, everything was 106 00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:27,600 very defined. 107 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,759 We had an internet, we had a process for everything, we had a 108 00:04:31,759 --> 00:04:35,839 process for changing process, we had a process for updating 109 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,279 punctuation in a standard operating procedure. 110 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,560 We were highly regulated, so everything we did was pretty 111 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:45,519 defined. 112 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:51,040 Um, I had a fairly predictable day to day. 113 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,759 I had my accounts, I knew what I needed to do. 114 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,480 I came in every day, I checked my fax machine. 115 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,279 Uh I checked my fax machine, I would pull my reports, I would 116 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,800 go through all of my reports, see what was going on with each 117 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,839 of the things I had in the system for my customers. 118 00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:15,360 Um, and like it was very routine, very structured, 119 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,879 predictable, um, and that was my life. 120 00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:30,160 I then moved from Lansing, Michigan area to um San 121 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,199 Francisco Bay Area, Silicon Valley, and joined the tech 122 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:34,079 startup world. 123 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:37,360 And this is, you know, where my advice comes from. 124 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,000 As somebody who went from a very defined world where you walk in 125 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,439 as a new hire and you had a manual, and it said, here's your 126 00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:50,000 manual on how you dress, you know, what time you should be 127 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,079 here, on how we interact with customers, on how you put stuff 128 00:05:54,079 --> 00:05:54,800 in the system. 129 00:05:54,959 --> 00:05:57,199 Like there was a manual for everything. 130 00:05:57,519 --> 00:05:57,759 SPEAKER_02: Wow. 131 00:05:58,399 --> 00:06:02,079 SPEAKER_01: You know, policies on everything to going into a 132 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:06,319 smaller startup where we're like building desks, cleaning out 133 00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:11,839 refrigerators, everybody's answering tickets from the CEO 134 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,759 all the way down to you know, anyone in the organization. 135 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:18,959 We're just throwing spaghetti sometimes at the wall trying to 136 00:06:18,959 --> 00:06:19,680 figure it out. 137 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,319 Not everybody can make that transition. 138 00:06:22,879 --> 00:06:26,000 Some people do that and they're like, holy smokes, you all are 139 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:26,879 crazy. 140 00:06:27,519 --> 00:06:29,120 How do you how do you keep up? 141 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,199 How do you know what you're supposed to do? 142 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,160 Some people love it, and that's that's the the narrative, right? 143 00:06:36,399 --> 00:06:40,000 Um figuring out if you are somebody who is thinking about 144 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,040 going from a bigger organization, what is your true 145 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,040 threshold for chaos? 146 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,160 What is your true threshold for ambiguity? 147 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:54,079 Um, you may think that you're okay with just having to go 148 00:06:54,079 --> 00:06:56,000 figure it out, but really test that. 149 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,959 Test that narrative with yourself because not everybody 150 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:01,680 is, and I've seen so many people struggle. 151 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:07,199 Um, I've seen folks come from larger organizations into you 152 00:07:07,199 --> 00:07:11,759 know my organizations that where I've been a leader, and they're 153 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,399 they don't know how to use Google because they've always 154 00:07:14,399 --> 00:07:19,600 been on PC or Microsoft, you know, suite, and a lot of 155 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,079 startups work in Google Suite. 156 00:07:22,639 --> 00:07:27,120 Um, and I've actually had a question from somebody of do you 157 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,879 have a process on how to set up my email? 158 00:07:31,279 --> 00:07:34,959 I'm like, no, you gotta go to the Googler and figure it out. 159 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:40,079 Like, this is you know, this is this is the difference of making 160 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:43,199 that big company jump down to these smaller startups. 161 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:45,120 SPEAKER_00: No, it's too, it's super interesting. 162 00:07:45,279 --> 00:07:48,240 And I can say um it's funny because I've been in similar 163 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:48,959 shoes, right? 164 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,000 Like kind of going from big to small companies that have 165 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,839 defined processes or you know, playbooks for certain things, 166 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:56,160 right? 167 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,959 And even we have been in organizations where they have 168 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,199 they don't even have a full like a CRM built out. 169 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:03,680 There's no like I'm going obviously to the tech side, and 170 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,759 then where you've been to another organization where it's 171 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:07,920 like, hey, here is literally your standard operating 172 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,439 procedures for updating a deal or updating an account. 173 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,439 Um and I'm curious, right? 174 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:15,279 Because like especially now, right? 175 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:18,959 Like I think with the job market, people are looking for 176 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:19,759 any role, right? 177 00:08:19,839 --> 00:08:22,959 I think like, sure, you could be pretty we we always give the 178 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:26,240 guidance of people looking for roles to to focus on the ones 179 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:27,360 that you absolutely want, right? 180 00:08:27,439 --> 00:08:31,199 But at the same time, you know, that that structure of a company 181 00:08:31,279 --> 00:08:33,039 you might not know until you get into the door. 182 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,159 So I guess like tell me more about you mentioned, like, hey, 183 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:36,960 really test that. 184 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,200 Like, what are some ways in which um, you know, a CSM or 185 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,559 any, you know, uh IC could kind of really test like that 186 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:45,279 flexibility. 187 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,320 SPEAKER_01: It's gonna depend on the person and the type of 188 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,840 company that you're joining and how chaotic things really are. 189 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,120 Because I think that sometimes the folks that are there that 190 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,360 you're interviewing with may think it is the most organized 191 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,480 time in their history because they've been there for a while 192 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,120 and they've seen you know the evolution. 193 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,480 Um, so one, how to test it as an individual. 194 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,559 I mean, think about do some self-reflection, is what I would 195 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:14,720 say. 196 00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:21,200 Um think about how you are in unstructured situations. 197 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,279 Do you get energy from having to go figure stuff out, or do you 198 00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:28,720 find it draining? 199 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,559 Um and maybe there are folks out there that weave in between 200 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:34,799 both. 201 00:09:34,879 --> 00:09:38,000 You're like, I get energy as long as I can see progress, but 202 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,720 if progress stalls, then I find it draining. 203 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:44,480 Really do some self-reflection and figure out where you are, 204 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,440 and then center your questions around what you know about 205 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:50,240 yourself. 206 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:56,480 Um, things that I would ask are talk to me if I'm a CSM, talk to 207 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,039 me about the sales to CS handoff. 208 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:00,559 Is there a formalized process? 209 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,080 What does that process look like? 210 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,799 How did that process come into play? 211 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,759 Um, also, you know, anything from are there standard 212 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:12,000 operating procedures in your organization? 213 00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:14,720 What are the key standard operating procedures? 214 00:10:14,879 --> 00:10:18,159 Where are those standard operating procedures housed? 215 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,159 Um, it's one thing to have them, then it's another thing to have 216 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:26,159 them in a way that everybody in the organization can access them 217 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:27,440 and find them when they need them. 218 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,679 That's like the next level of organization. 219 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:30,559 SPEAKER_00: Sure. 220 00:10:30,879 --> 00:10:33,600 SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been at organizations where there are 221 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,080 loads of standard operating procedures, but nobody knows 222 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:36,879 where they are. 223 00:10:37,279 --> 00:10:41,039 They were written by someone who maybe is no longer there, or 224 00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:44,639 they sit in somebody's, you know, Google inbox. 225 00:10:44,799 --> 00:10:49,840 But dig in um and don't be afraid to ask questions about 226 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:51,679 the things that matter to you. 227 00:10:52,879 --> 00:10:57,039 I will say, I also want to just put on my empathy hat for a 228 00:10:57,039 --> 00:10:57,360 second. 229 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:58,080 SPEAKER_02: Sure. 230 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,240 SPEAKER_01: If you are a CSM and it is a tough market, and you're 231 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,320 out there and you're just like, I just need to pay my bills, 232 00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:04,879 Miranda. 233 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,200 I don't care if it's organized or not organized. 234 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:07,919 SPEAKER_00: Right. 235 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,080 SPEAKER_01: Will that stay true for you once you get in and you 236 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,960 realize the company you've just joined is an absolute hot mess? 237 00:11:17,919 --> 00:11:21,200 Is that still gonna be true, or will that impact your mental 238 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:21,679 health? 239 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:27,200 And then you find yourself three months out wishing you wouldn't 240 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,440 have joined, and you're out, you know, scouring the web looking 241 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,440 for your next opportunity, right? 242 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:37,360 So again, just it's like know thyself. 243 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:43,519 Know thyself and your tolerance to the chaos that is of early 244 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:44,720 stage startups. 245 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,559 And maybe you determine that early stage isn't for you and 246 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,200 you prefer growth or later stage, because I will say I've 247 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,399 seen some growth in later stage companies and absolute chaos 248 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:57,039 too. 249 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,720 But usually it's a little bit more fleshed out because you 250 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,120 have to have some semblance of organization to get to that 251 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:05,440 point. 252 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:06,320 SPEAKER_00: 100%. 253 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,360 Yeah, and I think it's I think it's good advice too, right? 254 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,519 I think um it is kind of that it is kind of that balance because 255 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:17,039 at the end of the day, a job is like, yes, you need to pay the 256 00:12:17,039 --> 00:12:19,360 bills, but it is a long-term, like in terms of your career, 257 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,799 it's a long-term investment, you know, it whether it's for your 258 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:26,320 own personal growth, but also too, there's those implications 259 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,200 of mental health and you know, making sure that you're put into 260 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,279 an environment where you could actually, you know, produce 261 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:31,600 results. 262 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,679 SPEAKER_01: Um you just said is really crucial. 263 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,639 I want you to think about the narrative. 264 00:12:38,879 --> 00:12:42,559 Like when you join a company, they will forever be part of 265 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:43,360 your narrative. 266 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:43,919 SPEAKER_00: Sure. 267 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,320 SPEAKER_01: They will forever be part of your professional 268 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,279 narrative until you have been doing something else long enough 269 00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:50,799 to where it's no longer relevant. 270 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:51,519 SPEAKER_02: Sure. 271 00:12:51,759 --> 00:12:52,000 SPEAKER_01: Right. 272 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,960 So just keep that in mind as you're joining. 273 00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,000 Um, take off those goggles and really look at it through a real 274 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:00,720 lens. 275 00:13:00,879 --> 00:13:05,679 And don't get me wrong, I've made many an error where I'm 276 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,399 like, oh my gosh, this is going to be the best. 277 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,440 And I'm joined and I'm like, oh, holy smokes, what is this? 278 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:12,000 Right. 279 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:17,919 Um, so it's never perfect, but if you can, you know, first 280 00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:23,200 start with a list of things you must have uh and then go from 281 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:24,720 there, I think you'll be further along. 282 00:13:24,879 --> 00:13:30,399 I actually gave advice on um another webinar that I did, I 283 00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:33,679 think it was last week or the week before, where sometimes 284 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,679 it's hard for folks to think in you know, terms of what must I 285 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:38,000 have? 286 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,960 And it's easier for folks to think in anti-coals. 287 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:44,159 I talked about this in New York City, I've talked about this a 288 00:13:44,159 --> 00:13:45,200 few other times. 289 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,960 So maybe starting out with writing out things that you 290 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,480 absolutely do not want. 291 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:51,200 SPEAKER_02: I love it. 292 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,559 SPEAKER_01: Company size, um, customers you want to serve. 293 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:55,600 Are you B2B? 294 00:13:55,759 --> 00:13:57,679 So you don't want to touch B2C. 295 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,080 Um, what kind of leaders do you want to work with and for? 296 00:14:02,639 --> 00:14:05,919 Uh, and then start backing into like the culture. 297 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,679 Like, do you care about culture? 298 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:12,080 You're if you're 100% remote, um, what is the remote culture 299 00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:15,120 versus in office versus yada yada yada yada? 300 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:16,000 You you get the idea. 301 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,679 Start with your anti-goals first. 302 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:18,320 SPEAKER_00: 100%. 303 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:22,559 I love the anti-goals concept because um it's I think it's 304 00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:25,279 also like like, I mean, I listen, I'm not a psychology 305 00:14:25,279 --> 00:14:25,600 major. 306 00:14:25,679 --> 00:14:28,399 I wish I was, but like it's almost like a trick to the mind. 307 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:29,279 It's so much easier. 308 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,720 Like the mind goes negative, like kind of naturally. 309 00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:33,440 It's easier. 310 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:34,559 So it's less taxing. 311 00:14:34,639 --> 00:14:36,559 It's like, oh, well, I know what I don't want, right? 312 00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:39,600 It's almost like when we're I hate to use this example, but 313 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,679 every time we're trying to figure out my wife and I to go 314 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:44,080 out to eat, like, all right, well, what do we not want to eat 315 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:44,480 for dinner? 316 00:14:44,639 --> 00:14:48,399 And it's just like 100% knock knocking off, or or if we're 317 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:51,360 deciding on, like, hey, well, we're picking out a rug or uh 318 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:52,799 like a piece of furniture for the house. 319 00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:54,159 All right, well, what do we not like? 320 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:55,679 What's what's kind of the vision? 321 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,000 SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, I think it also works too when you are 322 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,600 having any kind of a professional disagreement. 323 00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:05,919 You could say, okay, what do we agree on? 324 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:06,240 Right. 325 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:11,679 It's the same type of motion of finding that that common center. 326 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:13,360 SPEAKER_00: So no, I love it. 327 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:14,240 That's awesome. 328 00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:19,279 Um, I guess it's funny, you're bringing up like interviews as 329 00:15:19,279 --> 00:15:22,960 well, like when it comes to you know, candidates and obviously 330 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,240 the questions to ask. 331 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:28,559 Um, which also I I'm curious on like, even on like on the flip 332 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:28,799 side. 333 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,159 I know we talked about some stories about when interviewing 334 00:15:32,159 --> 00:15:35,519 for candidates, as far as like, hey, like, you know, what to 335 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:36,320 look out for, right? 336 00:15:36,399 --> 00:15:37,759 Even on the flip side of it, right? 337 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,720 Like making sure, because also two at the same time, right? 338 00:15:40,879 --> 00:15:42,639 You want to make sure you're putting the right person in 339 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,559 seat, whether it's cultural fit, um, or just like making sure 340 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:48,639 that they're gonna do their absolute best, so kind of 341 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:49,120 vetting that out. 342 00:15:49,279 --> 00:15:51,360 So I'm curious from uh you mentioned some stories around 343 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,360 that too, as far as like from a leadership perspective. 344 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,679 So I'm curious to hear on the flip side of the coin. 345 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,200 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I I don't think I did it this last time, 346 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,639 but in previous companies when I interview, I like to have the 347 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:11,519 candidates um do exercises with me just so I can see how they 348 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:15,840 critically think and how they respond to ambiguity or how they 349 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,600 advocate for themselves. 350 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,519 Um, so one of the activities that I have historically done is 351 00:16:21,519 --> 00:16:24,720 I give a list of five things and I want them to prioritize it. 352 00:16:24,799 --> 00:16:27,919 And it's like, I'll probably botch the exact because I have 353 00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:30,799 it all written down, but it's something like you have a new 354 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:33,519 customer that's just been handed off, a new new customer that's 355 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:35,519 just been handed off that needs to be onboarded. 356 00:16:35,679 --> 00:16:39,120 You have an enterprise customer that's reaching out that they're 357 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,720 having problems using your product or service. 358 00:16:43,039 --> 00:16:48,080 You have um oh gosh, uh you have interview feedback that you need 359 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,679 to put in the system from an interview you're doing, you have 360 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:59,440 a EBR that is due in seven days, and you have uh 10 Zendesk 361 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,080 tickets that need your love. 362 00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:04,799 Um, and most CSMs don't work in Zen Desk. 363 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:05,599 I want to call that out. 364 00:17:05,759 --> 00:17:09,279 But this is part of the activity, and I ask folks to 365 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,599 prioritize where they're gonna go first. 366 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,759 A few things that I'm looking for, one is just not the right 367 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:18,319 order, but how they critically think and talk their way 368 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:18,640 through. 369 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,119 Two, how they ask questions gives me a lot of insight into 370 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,839 the environments that they've already been exposed to. 371 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:30,240 Um, so for example, I specifically call out EBR 372 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,960 because I put it with the seven days. 373 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:36,480 You would be surprised how many folks just prioritize at last 374 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,160 because they hear the seven days, and then I ask them, well, 375 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:41,680 what would you include in your EBR? 376 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:43,519 And they don't know what EBR stands for. 377 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:44,240 SPEAKER_00: Right. 378 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:45,200 Yeah, it's a mess. 379 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,559 SPEAKER_01: Those types of things that in a bigger 380 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:52,480 organization you could probably hide and get away with a little 381 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,480 bit more because there's probably an internet where you 382 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,799 can search EBR and it'll probably come up with a 383 00:17:56,799 --> 00:17:59,839 definition for you and tell you exactly what you should put in 384 00:17:59,839 --> 00:18:02,240 it and how it should be ran. 385 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:06,240 And at smaller organizations, especially in environments if 386 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,640 you are 100% remote, it's going to be up to you to ask those 387 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,559 questions and be able to advocate for yourself when 388 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:16,079 you're you're in that environment. 389 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,519 And those are the things that I'm I'm generally assessing for. 390 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:23,359 Now, I will also call out interviews are supposed to be 391 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,759 mutual interviews, mutual assessments. 392 00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:27,359 It's not one-sided. 393 00:18:27,519 --> 00:18:31,119 Um, so I want them to also get a snapshot into what it's like to 394 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,519 partner with me and with others in the team. 395 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,279 Um, so it definitely create activities that will allow them 396 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:44,000 to get snapshots like that, like doing a real simple mock um CSM 397 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,720 relationship kickoff, where we come in in personas, the 398 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,960 candidate puts together a short presentation of their favorite 399 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:53,519 tool. 400 00:18:53,759 --> 00:18:57,519 I don't want them to pick use our tool because I don't want 401 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:00,319 people to feel like I'm giving them homework that I'm gonna use 402 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,720 later to better the company and they didn't get the job, because 403 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,200 you see that all over the place where people talk about that. 404 00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:10,400 Happens pick your favorite tool, the most easiest tool. 405 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:13,359 Usually it's like Slack or something like that. 406 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,960 Um, but then they get to see the dynamics of the team and see 407 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,799 sometimes the goofiness and silliness that ensues when you 408 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:28,079 uh give a CSM a CTO title or a CSM a CFO title and they get to 409 00:19:28,079 --> 00:19:29,519 pretend they're the CFO. 410 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:31,039 SPEAKER_00: That's interesting. 411 00:19:31,759 --> 00:19:34,160 SPEAKER_01: Um so it's a lot of fun. 412 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,319 Uh, but we also try to make it safe for them to get to know us 413 00:19:38,319 --> 00:19:39,759 and see those dynamics too. 414 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:40,799 SPEAKER_00: That's awesome. 415 00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:42,400 Um, I I actually love that. 416 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,200 I have not seen that where you kind of give them like a kind of 417 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,279 a sample role beyond what they're, you know. 418 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,039 SPEAKER_01: Uh I've been doing it for years in other 419 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:52,000 organizations. 420 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,519 And um, don't get me wrong, it's an interview. 421 00:19:55,759 --> 00:19:59,759 And I know it's stressful, yeah, but also I think. 422 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:05,200 You know, we tend to immediately see the folks that can control 423 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:11,519 the room and you know can not overpromise and can kind of feel 424 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:14,640 those wack-adoo questions that are going to be thrown at them 425 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,480 from customers because it's real life. 426 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:17,759 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, 100%. 427 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,680 I think it's interesting, right, though, because they could go, 428 00:20:21,839 --> 00:20:24,559 especially with the ambiguity piece of it, it's it enables 429 00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:27,119 them to kind of critically think even beyond, right? 430 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,240 And it's like, okay, well, how detailed can are they gonna get? 431 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,759 Like, what is you know a C a CEO or a chief customer officer 432 00:20:35,759 --> 00:20:36,480 thinking about? 433 00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:39,440 And it puts them in kind of in a different light beyond what 434 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,960 their initial responsibility is, and then brings them, ties it 435 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,440 all together. 436 00:20:43,599 --> 00:20:46,319 Um, I'm actually curious on the ambiguity piece, right? 437 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,480 Like uh I've seen a number of ways in which CSMs handle 438 00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:51,680 ambiguity, including myself. 439 00:20:51,759 --> 00:20:54,000 I've you know might done my own strategies, but I'm curious from 440 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,720 your perspective of like what you've seen like actually work, 441 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:57,119 right? 442 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,319 Like again, you ask the questions of like, hey, three to 443 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:02,480 five questions, you kind of give it, but then that could go a 444 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:03,039 couple of different ways. 445 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,839 You get someone that asks a ton of questions, very little 446 00:21:05,839 --> 00:21:08,559 questions, but I guess like what is kind of like a good model of 447 00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:11,440 where it's like, hey, like this is a good candidate where 448 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,680 they're asking the appropriate ones, but also know how to kind 449 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:14,400 of control the room. 450 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,480 I think is a good way you you kind of put it. 451 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,720 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when you're talking about the 452 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,079 activity where I give, you know, five different activities and 453 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,559 leave things ambiguous on purpose. 454 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,039 I also do that with the presentation, I leave things 455 00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:32,319 ambiguous on purpose, um, to see if folks will advocate for 456 00:21:32,319 --> 00:21:33,039 themselves. 457 00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:38,799 I think the appropriate level is the individuals that seek enough 458 00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:43,440 information for clarity to make quick snap judgments, quick 459 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,079 decisions, but not so much clarity that they want a 460 00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:50,559 picture, a perfect picture painted. 461 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,720 Um if someone requires a perfect picture to be painted at that 462 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,119 juncture, especially in early to grow stage startups, they're 463 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,240 gonna be greatly disappointed when they come in because that 464 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:07,839 is just not the reality. 465 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:13,119 But they should seek enough information to feel comfortable 466 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,720 enough to make quick judgments. 467 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,440 Um, because I don't want them to be paralyzed by this vision of 468 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,319 perfect that will never happen or never exist. 469 00:22:24,799 --> 00:22:27,759 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I uh it's definitely uh it's interesting, 470 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:28,160 right? 471 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,400 Um, because there's a lot of ways in which people can ask 472 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,200 those questions. 473 00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:33,680 Um, but you're right, you don't want them to spiral. 474 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:37,519 They kind of have to have um, you know, that confidence, 475 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:37,839 right? 476 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,359 And that conviction as far as what they're recommending um in 477 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,599 those different, you know, in that particular scenario, that 478 00:22:43,599 --> 00:22:44,319 assessment. 479 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,759 Um it's oh, I'll just add really quickly. 480 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,519 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can give two examples of this prioritization 481 00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:52,000 activity. 482 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,039 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's hear it. 483 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,599 SPEAKER_01: Um one where it went really well and one where it was 484 00:22:57,599 --> 00:22:58,799 maybe a little too much. 485 00:22:59,119 --> 00:22:59,440 Sure. 486 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,759 Um, so this quick prioritization activity is meant to take less 487 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:05,440 than five minutes of the interview. 488 00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:06,240 Period. 489 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:06,880 SPEAKER_02: Wow. 490 00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:10,240 SPEAKER_01: Um, yep, that's it should be like just a quick, 491 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,759 yep, I would do this, this, this, this, and this is why, and 492 00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:14,960 we move on, right? 493 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:15,440 SPEAKER_02: Right. 494 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:17,599 SPEAKER_01: Uh, it is part of the phone screen. 495 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,079 It's not meant to be the centerpiece. 496 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,799 I have had folks that literally say, okay, so they're 10 Zen 497 00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:25,440 Desk tickets. 498 00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:28,079 I have an enterprise customer that's having problems. 499 00:23:28,319 --> 00:23:33,519 Um, I have an EBR in seven days, and they go through and they're 500 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:36,319 like, Um, do you know what's in those 10 Zen Desk tickets? 501 00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:36,799 No. 502 00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:37,920 Okay, okay. 503 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,000 Um, what does EBR mean? 504 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:41,920 The executive business review. 505 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,119 Okay, got it. 506 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,640 Um, and then they go and they say, Okay, in the interview, 507 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,160 like when did I do the interview? 508 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,359 Said yesterday. 509 00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:52,079 Okay, so I might have a little bit of time on that. 510 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:52,799 Okay, great. 511 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,480 And then they're like, I would first reach out to the, you 512 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,599 know, executive or the uh enterprise level customer, let 513 00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:02,000 them know we're working on it, get that escalated over to 514 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,480 support so they can figure out what's going on, do a quick skim 515 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,680 of the 10 Zendesk tickets to make sure that there are no 516 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:08,880 other issues that are hiding. 517 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,359 Because if I have one customer that has an issue, I might have 518 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:11,759 others. 519 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,400 And then they said, seven days for a business review. 520 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,039 If I need data pulled, I would start getting the data pulled 521 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,240 while I'm doing that. 522 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,440 I would aggregate my feedback for the candidate and prioritize 523 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,519 that for the end of the day while I'm cranking through all 524 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:25,839 these things. 525 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,319 I'm like, perfect, boom, let's rock. 526 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:28,960 SPEAKER_02: Nice. 527 00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:32,960 SPEAKER_01: Then on the other end of the spectrum, it's 528 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,000 painstakingly like 15 minutes of back and forth and dialogue 529 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,799 about, you know, what does this mean? 530 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,240 What does that mean? 531 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,559 Um, you know, okay, well, what what is going on with the 532 00:24:46,559 --> 00:24:47,839 enterprise customer? 533 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,920 Do I have, you know, what kind of information should I gather? 534 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,079 And this and that, and like it's just showing me a little bit of 535 00:24:56,079 --> 00:24:57,119 overthinking. 536 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,599 It's not like a red flag, it's a yellow flag, to be clear. 537 00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:03,599 I don't completely rule people out. 538 00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:08,160 I want them to be able to appropriately moderate for that 539 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:09,119 stage of the interview. 540 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,680 And I even cue it up saying these are fictitious examples. 541 00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:17,759 Um, but it's appropriate moderation and getting the level 542 00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:20,799 of detail you need and moving on. 543 00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:22,319 That's helpful. 544 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,200 SPEAKER_00: No, 100%. 545 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,599 It's definitely, it's definitely interesting and helpful. 546 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,839 Um, I guess like what I've seen done in the past, um, and I'm 547 00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:32,799 curious to get your opinion on this as far as like like 548 00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:36,000 candidates will go, and just like, okay, hey, this is the inf 549 00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:38,240 this this is the information I'm operating with, right? 550 00:25:38,319 --> 00:25:41,680 Like based on what I've reviewed, and I'm also going to 551 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,200 make some other necessary assumptions. 552 00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:45,920 So that way it kind of builds the story together, right? 553 00:25:46,079 --> 00:25:48,400 They can make the assumption, like, hey, I'm gonna assume 554 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,319 there's these, and going back to your example, right? 555 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,359 This end desk, hey, something that's more technical, something 556 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,079 that's gonna take, you know, out of maybe half of them and a 557 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:58,880 quarter of them or more technical than others, making 558 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,000 those assumptions in order to help them tell the story. 559 00:26:02,079 --> 00:26:04,720 I mean, would you agree, or like from your point of view as far 560 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,480 as if that would work for candidates? 561 00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:07,359 SPEAKER_01: 100%. 562 00:26:08,319 --> 00:26:08,960 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it. 563 00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:12,640 This is this is great and super helpful um, you know, for the 564 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:13,119 audience. 565 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:15,119 I guess like it's interesting. 566 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,799 I kind of want to go back just a bit when we're talking about 567 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,079 when we're talking about growth, you know, stage or just startups 568 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,319 in general versus larger. 569 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,519 I guess like like a larger organization, how how would it 570 00:26:27,519 --> 00:26:28,559 be different, if at all? 571 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,640 Like I'm just curious from that perspective, right? 572 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,599 Because now we're we're giving a lot of good examples on like, 573 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:36,160 hey, you know, we need someone that's gonna operate with 574 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:36,880 ambiguity. 575 00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:38,319 They they don't have that structure. 576 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,839 You're trying to fish that out. 577 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:42,559 Does that at all change if you're working at a large 578 00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:45,440 organization, or is there just other key things that large 579 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:46,960 organizations are going to keep in mind? 580 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,720 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was at a larger organization, of course, 581 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,319 early in my career for a decade, and then later in my career for 582 00:26:54,319 --> 00:26:55,759 a short period of time. 583 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,160 And I will tell you, it does change quite a bit from my 584 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:00,640 experience. 585 00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:04,000 Now it's going to vary from company to company. 586 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:04,480 SPEAKER_02: Sure. 587 00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:08,960 SPEAKER_01: But as a CS leader, I was looking for folks, of 588 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,119 course, that could deal with ambiguity. 589 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,799 Um, but more so I was looking for folks that knew how to 590 00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:20,720 navigate through larger organizations to get things 591 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:21,359 done. 592 00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:26,880 Um, especially as a customer-facing professional, 593 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,799 the larger the organizations, I hate to say it, but it's just 594 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:35,920 more bureaucracy that you have to deal with in order to get 595 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,720 attention on your tickets, to get your renewals across the 596 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,960 finish line, you name it. 597 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,680 Um, it's just amplify. 598 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,039 So I'm always looking for folks that are, of course, incredibly 599 00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:54,799 customer-centric, can, you know, do customer success in the way 600 00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:57,839 that is required for that organization, whether that is 601 00:27:57,839 --> 00:28:00,640 you own the renewal and upsell, you don't own the renewal and 602 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,279 upsell, you're just focused on value and um and outcomes, or 603 00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:07,680 you're focused on, you know, you get the idea. 604 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:10,880 It's gonna be a different variation depending on the needs 605 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:11,680 of the company. 606 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:14,559 But then I'm also looking for folks that have worked in 607 00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:23,359 matrixed organizations or um understand the magnitude of the 608 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,160 challenges that can be encountered when you're trying 609 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,240 to navigate through larger organizations. 610 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,160 I will say folks that come from being purely in early stage 611 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,160 startups sometimes can't hang there either. 612 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:37,599 SPEAKER_00: It's interesting. 613 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:41,359 SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it you you can't, but I do I have 614 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:46,720 seen, I've seen folks say, oh my gosh, you won't believe how long 615 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,079 it takes me to get a response. 616 00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:55,519 Like you won't believe, you know, we only do two releases a 617 00:28:55,519 --> 00:28:55,759 year. 618 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,759 How are we functioning, right? 619 00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:02,079 Um where they come from smaller startups, maybe they're used to 620 00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:05,519 constant deployment and they can get stuff done fast. 621 00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:07,119 It's just a different world. 622 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:08,000 SPEAKER_00: Makes sense. 623 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,759 No, and it and I totally get it. 624 00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:13,680 Um, and it's I I guess like I'm curious now, like if you're an 625 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,920 interview, like how do you fish that out, right? 626 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,440 Or or even better yet, better prepare someone, you know, going 627 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,000 into the role. 628 00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:21,279 I guess like what are some examples? 629 00:29:21,359 --> 00:29:22,480 I guess on both ends, really. 630 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:25,920 I guess it's like one, you interviewing, two, how can a CSM 631 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:26,319 prepare? 632 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,119 SPEAKER_01: First, if you're a CSM, do your research. 633 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:32,400 Uh, ChatGPT is such a tremendous tool these days. 634 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:39,759 You can go on and upload the job description and ask ChatGPT to 635 00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:40,880 help you prepare. 636 00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:43,119 Say, I am a CSM candidate. 637 00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:47,599 I'm interviewing a$200 million a year organization, or I'm 638 00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:51,920 interviewing a$5 billion a year organization. 639 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:55,759 This seems to be the pillars that they have published. 640 00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:58,880 If they're public, you can go out and you can find their 641 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,000 earnings statements, their investor decks, stuff like that 642 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:03,200 is usually made public. 643 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,839 Upload that into Chat GPT, tell them what role, what you care, 644 00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:12,559 what you care about, what you want to suss out, have Chat GPT 645 00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:15,279 be your interview buddy, and also help them, have them create 646 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:19,440 you a guide on what you should ask in order to suss out the 647 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:20,880 things that you care about. 648 00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:22,799 Um, that's thing one. 649 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,680 Thing two, I would, if I was a CSM in this day and age, and I'm 650 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,359 interviewing, I don't care if it's small or big, I'm gonna be 651 00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:34,799 reaching out to folks that hold the role that I'm interviewing 652 00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:40,319 for and asking them if they have a minute just to chat over their 653 00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:42,000 experience with the company. 654 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,839 They may say no. 655 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:50,319 Um, they may not even reply, but occasionally you'll get someone, 656 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,799 especially in the larger organizations, that will likely 657 00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:55,599 reply and I don't yeah, I'm happy to hop on. 658 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,039 Make it more about what does the role look like? 659 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,680 What has been your experience, and less about help me get the 660 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,000 job. 661 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,119 The minute you make it about help me get the job, people will 662 00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:08,160 shut you out because they don't usually have that level of 663 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:08,480 control. 664 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:09,200 SPEAKER_02: Right. 665 00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:12,880 SPEAKER_01: Um, but if it is about, you know, like I just 666 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,559 want to understand what your experience is so I can have a 667 00:31:16,559 --> 00:31:20,240 full picture of what I'm interviewing for, I think that's 668 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,359 incredibly helpful. 669 00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:25,519 And I would even take it a step further and say, when you are 670 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:29,759 interviewing with the recruiter in the beginning, ask if they 671 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:35,519 can make sure a CSM is on the interview list because you want 672 00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:37,839 to talk to somebody who's currently doing the role to help 673 00:31:37,839 --> 00:31:38,720 you assess. 674 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:39,759 SPEAKER_00: That's awesome. 675 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,200 I like that recommendation, actually. 676 00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:42,000 I haven't seen that. 677 00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:45,519 So you're saying, like, when talking with whether it's you 678 00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:47,759 know, recruitment and so on, you're you're saying, like, hey, 679 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,000 we'd love to during the interview process connect with 680 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,000 someone in CFM or similar role. 681 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:53,839 SPEAKER_01: That's actually doing the role. 682 00:31:54,000 --> 00:32:00,960 I see a lot of um I've seen a lot of interview teams that are 683 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,920 formulated without having anyone that does the role talk to the 684 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:06,480 candidate. 685 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,599 I think it's a disservice to both sides, right? 686 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,799 How can you appropriately assess if you're not the one actually 687 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:14,960 doing the work day in and day out? 688 00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:18,960 And also as a candidate, how can you assess if you're not talking 689 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,680 to somebody who's actually doing the role? 690 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,559 So, and I will add, I know a lot of folks, once they get that far 691 00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:28,720 and they have the interview, they could be a little bit 692 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,799 terrified with advocating for themselves. 693 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,480 Like they don't want to put out the company, they don't want to 694 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:35,440 be difficult. 695 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,359 I don't view that as difficult. 696 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,880 And if somebody didn't move forward with you because you 697 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,480 want to talk to another CSM that could potentially be doing this 698 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,720 role, you probably dodged a bullet. 699 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:47,440 SPEAKER_00: True. 700 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,480 Yeah, I think that that always tells a lot about a company, 701 00:32:50,559 --> 00:32:53,519 depending on what you you ask for, as far as like in order to 702 00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:55,759 make sure that you're both successful through the entire 703 00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:56,160 journey. 704 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,200 And I think um that's a good piece of advice as well to 705 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160 remember like, hey, not every company is the right fit and 706 00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:03,519 kind of keep that in mind, right? 707 00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:05,920 Like they're gonna have to give in some some regard. 708 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,680 Um, you know, I know we're we're we're coming up to a close that 709 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,680 I want to like to kind of recap, like obviously for the audience, 710 00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:17,440 like, you know, again, highlight of the highlight of the show 711 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,839 right now today is like, hey, like how can we, you know, 712 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,480 better prepare, whether it's interviewers as well as like the 713 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,400 CSMs, you know, in the market. 714 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,880 But if you had some like kind of like final thoughts and themes 715 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,440 of like, hey, to kind of give back to the audience, like what 716 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:30,480 would it be, Miranda? 717 00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:34,319 SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, I know it's a challenging market out 718 00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:36,480 there and it has been for a year or two. 719 00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:42,720 Um I know that this will probably be unpopular, but I am 720 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:48,400 advising folks to be willing to take a step back in title if 721 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,240 everything else matches up. 722 00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:54,960 Um if you are a senior CSM and you're interviewing at a company 723 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,640 for a CSM role, be open-minded about it. 724 00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:02,880 As long as everything else checks, all the other boxes are 725 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:03,519 checked. 726 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,039 Um, if you are a director, be willing to take a manager, if 727 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:09,519 you're a CCO, be willing to take a VP. 728 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,199 Um, I I know that that might get me some hate mail, but there has 729 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,760 been a bit of I don't even know what to call it, but like a 730 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,239 reset almost over the last couple of years uh in customer 731 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,880 success, with higher priority being given to folks that have 732 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,119 revenue generating experience. 733 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,239 And those that don't have that on their resume are struggling 734 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,519 to land their next role. 735 00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:43,119 So I'm just saying, like, be willing to take that step as 736 00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:45,920 long as the culture is right, the product is right, the 737 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,119 customer base is right, the team is right, but make sure you ask 738 00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:53,039 what growth paths look like inside. 739 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,199 That's a good ask them what is what is what is like what are 740 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,840 what is career development look like here? 741 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,440 Um be very clear with your recruiter or your hiring 742 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:03,840 manager. 743 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,440 Like, I am interested in this opportunity in this company, 744 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,599 serving these customers with this team, and I'm willing to 745 00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:15,679 take a step back, but I also want to know that there will be 746 00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:19,039 the opportunity for me to prove myself here and regain that 747 00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:20,000 title, right? 748 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:21,440 SPEAKER_00: Yep, 100%. 749 00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:22,000 I love it. 750 00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:23,119 And it's it's interesting, right? 751 00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:24,639 Because it kind of goes back to the theme too. 752 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,920 When we initially started, it's like smaller org versus larger 753 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:28,159 org. 754 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,000 And I think a lot of people forget like, hey, how an org 755 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,920 defines a VP versus a manager or director is very much dependent 756 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,239 on the company size, the different departments, what 757 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:39,840 they're responsible for, what they're selling. 758 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,199 It's totally different. 759 00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:44,880 SPEAKER_01: Spot on a VP at a billion-dollar company is very 760 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,840 different than a VP at a five million dollar company. 761 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,480 It just is. 762 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:49,760 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a hundred percent. 763 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:50,639 No, I love it. 764 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,679 Um, you know, listen, this this has been great conversation, but 765 00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:56,159 I'm always curious, and I ask my guests, like, hey, where do you 766 00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:56,480 go to learn? 767 00:35:56,639 --> 00:35:58,639 Obviously, like you have a ton of experience, you know, 768 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,000 developing relationships. 769 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:02,400 I mean, listen, I always kind of say, like, we're all kind of in 770 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,760 it, we're all learning as we go. 771 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,280 And I've read like a ton of books and podcasts and all that 772 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:07,679 kind of stuff. 773 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,519 But and you have obviously a ton of books behind you. 774 00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:10,480 I've recognized a few. 775 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:13,440 I mean, even good to great just came up in another podcast 776 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:13,840 recently. 777 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,000 So that's uh an oldie but a goodie. 778 00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:18,800 But I'm curious, um, you know, what where do you go for your 779 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,400 learnings or what do you recommend for people? 780 00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:22,880 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, first and foremost, for leadership things, 781 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,360 I'm a big fan of Patrick Lencioni. 782 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:29,840 Um, I have, and he's from the table group, I have probably 10 783 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,800 of his books on this shelf up here all over the place. 784 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,199 I mean, probably spot his name. 785 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,480 And if I wasn't crazy and like to organize everything by color, 786 00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:43,039 I'd probably put all my Patrick Lancioni books um in one spot. 787 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:49,760 Um also, uh, you know, honestly, I love, love LinkedIn. 788 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,719 Um I I think that you have to be careful and mindful of who and 789 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,159 where you take your advice from. 790 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,880 Um because there are a lot of people out there not qualified 791 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,800 giving advice, and that is a danger. 792 00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:04,480 So if you are a CSM out there taking advice from folks or a CS 793 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,360 leader, please make sure you look at their background and see 794 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,039 if their advice is relevant to you. 795 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,519 Same kind of theme here. 796 00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:15,519 If their experience is only at Google, it's probably not going 797 00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:18,800 to be as relevant for early stage startup. 798 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,800 Um, while their advice may be good, it may be better for 799 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,159 bigger organizations. 800 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,679 And then lastly, we were joking around about this at the 801 00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:29,760 beginning, but I have to I have to do it. 802 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,360 I have to talk about it. 803 00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:36,639 Um, I got bestowed this awesome honor today of being highlighted 804 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:38,719 on LinkedIn Lunatics. 805 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:40,159 I know. 806 00:37:41,039 --> 00:37:42,239 I've made it. 807 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:45,599 I made a very it's a badge of honor. 808 00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:52,639 It's it's it I made a very um tongue-in-cheek post on 809 00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:56,719 LinkedIn, and it wasn't supposed to be serious, and it was about 810 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,880 resurrecting the M-dash. 811 00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:04,000 Um, and you know, I post a lot of serious stuff on LinkedIn. 812 00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:08,559 I highlight folks trying to find jobs, I put I share playbooks, I 813 00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:11,199 share, you know, just a lot of things. 814 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,559 And I did this one tongue-in-cheek thing, and it 815 00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:16,719 like it got loads of attention. 816 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,199 Um, a lot of people agree, like AI has ruined the M-Dash for us. 817 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:21,840 SPEAKER_00: It's true. 818 00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:24,000 SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people are like, yes, we're bringing 819 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,119 the M-Dash back. 820 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:27,760 Uh, and it got me on LinkedIn Lunatics. 821 00:38:29,679 --> 00:38:30,400 SPEAKER_00: I have to check. 822 00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:31,920 No, I'm I'm so curious. 823 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:32,559 I have to check it out. 824 00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:34,559 It's the first time I've ever listened to it, it's the first 825 00:38:34,559 --> 00:38:37,039 time I've heard of it, and then it started you started kind of 826 00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:38,079 schooling me about it. 827 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:39,760 And I'll be honest, it's it's hilarious. 828 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:40,800 I mean, I gotta check it out. 829 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,199 SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've made it. 830 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:43,920 Like this is it. 831 00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:44,800 I can retire. 832 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:45,440 I can retire. 833 00:38:45,679 --> 00:38:46,480 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right. 834 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:48,480 I love it. 835 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,039 SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me, Joe. 836 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:51,679 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. 837 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,360 No, this is a great, great conversation. 838 00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:55,760 I guess like uh, where can everybody find you, Miranda, if 839 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,119 they want to connect and learn more? 840 00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:58,239 SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn. 841 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,239 I I'm not, um, I I'm trying to start a sub Substack. 842 00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:03,440 I can't even say it. 843 00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:03,920 Listen to me. 844 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,599 I'm like, is that right? 845 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,960 I'm thinking about starting a sub stack, but right now I'm 846 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,320 just purely LinkedIn. 847 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:11,440 SPEAKER_00: So that's awesome. 848 00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:12,159 No good stuff. 849 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,159 We'll definitely we'll include your link in the description 850 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,519 along with the books, and maybe if we find that the LinkedIn uh 851 00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:19,920 lunatic subreddit subreddit post. 852 00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:23,760 SPEAKER_01: Only if you promise to go defend the honor of the 853 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:24,079 MC. 854 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:24,719 Yes. 855 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:26,960 SPEAKER_00: I love it. 856 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,440 Well, listen, had lots of fun, Miranda. 857 00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:31,840 It's a great lots of great learnings too for the audience. 858 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,039 But uh thanks so much for coming on. 859 00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:33,840 This is great. 860 00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:34,880 SPEAKER_02: Thank you. 861 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,760 SPEAKER_00: That's a wrap for today's episode. 862 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,119 Thanks so much for listening. 863 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,079 If you got some value from this conversation, hit subscribe, 864 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,599 leave a rating or review, share it with someone who's also out 865 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:49,519 there trying to build a better customer success or go to market 866 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,000 strategy, even if it's messy along the way. 867 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:55,440 And if you want more frameworks, tools, automated playbooks, 868 00:39:55,519 --> 00:39:58,880 check out Johta's TechTouch.com and subscribe to our newsletter. 869 00:39:58,960 --> 00:39:59,840 That link is in the description. 870 00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:00,880 Description. 871 00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:02,639 Thanks so much for being here. 872 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,920 Keep building, keep learning, and I'll catch you on the next 873 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:06,159 one. 874 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,559 Quick note before we wrap: this podcast is for educational and 875 00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:12,079 informational purposes only. 876 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,840 The ideas and opinions shared here are of my own or those of 877 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,760 my guests, and don't reflect the views of any current or former 878 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,840 employers, clients, or partners. 879 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,280 We might reference tools, platforms, or companies, but 880 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,239 nothing shared here should be taken as fact, endorsement, or 881 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:28,880 criticism. 882 00:40:29,039 --> 00:40:32,480 Do your own research and always consult your team or legal 883 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,039 counsel when making any business decisions. 884 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,119 This content is not legal, financial, or business advice. 885 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,199 It's just us sharing what's worked, what hasn't, and how 886 00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:44,559 we've learned from both. 887 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,320 So thanks again for joining us. 888 00:40:46,559 --> 00:40:47,599 We'll see you next time.