Chaos Threshold: Startup CS Vs Enterprise w/ Maranda Dziekonski Chief Customer Officer at Fexa

SPEAKER_01: If you are somebody who is thinking about going from a bigger organization, what is your true threshold for chaos? What is your true threshold for ambiguity? You may think, okay, with just having to go figure it out. Test that narrative with yourself.

SPEAKER_00: Welcome the Customer Unsuccess, the podcast where we cut out the noise and talk with real leaders about their hardest lessons in customer success and other go-to-market motions. I'm your host, Joe DeGrande, and in each episode, we're going to unpack real challenges from real leaders. Failed tech implementation, a strategy that didn't yield results for difficult customers. More importantly, we're going to take those lessons learned and share them with you so that way you can avoid those same mistakes with your team.

So if you're in customer success, sales, or other go-to-market motions, stick around and hear from the best. And let's dig into it. On today's episode, I'm joined by Miranda Dekonsky. She's the chief customer officer at FEXA and one of the most generous community voices in CS.

And we dig into the real differences between Enterprise DS and an early stage startup CS function from processes to politics to the chaos topic, as well as if it's a career fit and how both candidates and hiring leaders can navigate interviews to find the right match. Plus, we talk about Miranda's recent cameo on the LinkedIn Lunatic subreddit. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you do too.

Now let's dive in. But let's kick it off. So Miranda, thanks so much for joining the Customer on Success podcast. SPEAKER_01: Thank you.

Thank you for having me. I know we've been trying to do this for what feels like years now. Um, but here we are. We've arrived.

SPEAKER_00: It's weird. I've been in a weird place right now in a time of the year where it's like things are either moving too quickly or too slow. And it's like it's moments like this where I'm like, oh my gosh, when was the last time we spoke? And it just like flew by, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01: I have no idea. It was way earlier in 2025. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. All I know is I was in shorts and a t-shirt.

So that's just tell me enough wearing it. SPEAKER_01: And I'm wearing a Christmas sweater, right? There you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_00: Perfect. Very festive. I love it. Well, good stuff.

And if you're not familiar with Miranda, uh, she is a chief customer officer at Fexa, has a wealth of experience within customer success. And uh I know we have a couple of stories we want to dive into. And I know um it's interesting because I talk to a lot of you know, people reach out, obviously, you know, in terms of the market too, what's going on with customer success, people trying to find new roles. And I know you also do, you know, your own um, you know, kind of giving back to the community, which is great, as far as calling out like people within your network, which is awesome.

Um, but I, you know, I also feel that there are a lot of people that forget the other parts of the role where you're different doing customer success at different types of organizations, whether that's an industry or also more importantly, the size. And there's different aspects of it, whether it's just the in you know the internal politics of things of how things get done, different stakeholders and so on. And I know just before we kind of kicked off the recording, we were talking about a couple stories around that, as far as like, hey, like what happens when a CSM kind of works with a larger org or if they go to like a startup.

So I would love to kind of dig into that because I know the audience is always curious. SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So just a little bit about my journey that'll help add uh a little bit of color to the thoughts I have. Years ago, we're talking 20 plus years ago, I got my start doing kind of customer relationship management.

It wasn't called customer success back then at a company that was a very large$40 plus billion dollar a year company. I spent nine years there managing a portfolio of accounts. And it was my job to make sure that they had everything they need, um, that quite frankly, they were successful. Uh, and the stakes were really high there.

Um, you know, we were working with very large chemical or sorry, we were working with very large automotive and also pharmaceutical customers. So you think, you know, just GM, Toyota, AstraZeneca, Bosch, Ford. I know I threw something in there that wasn't pharmaceutical or automotive, but you get the idea, these really large logos that everybody knows. Um, and you know, in this organization, everything was very defined.

We had an internet, we had a process for everything, we had a process for changing process, we had a process for updating punctuation in a standard operating procedure. We were highly regulated, so everything we did was pretty defined. Um, I had a fairly predictable day to day. I had my accounts, I knew what I needed to do.

I came in every day, I checked my fax machine. Uh I checked my fax machine, I would pull my reports, I would go through all of my reports, see what was going on with each of the things I had in the system for my customers. Um, and like it was very routine, very structured, predictable, um, and that was my life. I then moved from Lansing, Michigan area to um San Francisco Bay Area, Silicon Valley, and joined the tech startup world.

And this is, you know, where my advice comes from. As somebody who went from a very defined world where you walk in as a new hire and you had a manual, and it said, here's your manual on how you dress, you know, what time you should be here, on how we interact with customers, on how you put stuff in the system. Like there was a manual for everything. SPEAKER_02: Wow.

SPEAKER_01: You know, policies on everything to going into a smaller startup where we're like building desks, cleaning out refrigerators, everybody's answering tickets from the CEO all the way down to you know, anyone in the organization. We're just throwing spaghetti sometimes at the wall trying to figure it out. Not everybody can make that transition. Some people do that and they're like, holy smokes, you all are crazy.

How do you how do you keep up? How do you know what you're supposed to do? Some people love it, and that's that's the the narrative, right? Um figuring out if you are somebody who is thinking about going from a bigger organization, what is your true threshold for chaos?

What is your true threshold for ambiguity? Um, you may think that you're okay with just having to go figure it out, but really test that. Test that narrative with yourself because not everybody is, and I've seen so many people struggle. Um, I've seen folks come from larger organizations into you know my organizations that where I've been a leader, and they're they don't know how to use Google because they've always been on PC or Microsoft, you know, suite, and a lot of startups work in Google Suite.

Um, and I've actually had a question from somebody of do you have a process on how to set up my email? I'm like, no, you gotta go to the Googler and figure it out. Like, this is you know, this is this is the difference of making that big company jump down to these smaller startups. SPEAKER_00: No, it's too, it's super interesting.

And I can say um it's funny because I've been in similar shoes, right? Like kind of going from big to small companies that have defined processes or you know, playbooks for certain things, right? And even we have been in organizations where they have they don't even have a full like a CRM built out. There's no like I'm going obviously to the tech side, and then where you've been to another organization where it's like, hey, here is literally your standard operating procedures for updating a deal or updating an account.

Um and I'm curious, right? Because like especially now, right? Like I think with the job market, people are looking for any role, right? I think like, sure, you could be pretty we we always give the guidance of people looking for roles to to focus on the ones that you absolutely want, right?

But at the same time, you know, that that structure of a company you might not know until you get into the door. So I guess like tell me more about you mentioned, like, hey, really test that. Like, what are some ways in which um, you know, a CSM or any, you know, uh IC could kind of really test like that flexibility. SPEAKER_01: It's gonna depend on the person and the type of company that you're joining and how chaotic things really are.

Because I think that sometimes the folks that are there that you're interviewing with may think it is the most organized time in their history because they've been there for a while and they've seen you know the evolution. Um, so one, how to test it as an individual. I mean, think about do some self-reflection, is what I would say. Um think about how you are in unstructured situations.

Do you get energy from having to go figure stuff out, or do you find it draining? Um and maybe there are folks out there that weave in between both. You're like, I get energy as long as I can see progress, but if progress stalls, then I find it draining. Really do some self-reflection and figure out where you are, and then center your questions around what you know about yourself.

Um, things that I would ask are talk to me if I'm a CSM, talk to me about the sales to CS handoff. Is there a formalized process? What does that process look like? How did that process come into play?

Um, also, you know, anything from are there standard operating procedures in your organization? What are the key standard operating procedures? Where are those standard operating procedures housed? Um, it's one thing to have them, then it's another thing to have them in a way that everybody in the organization can access them and find them when they need them.

That's like the next level of organization. SPEAKER_00: Sure. SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been at organizations where there are loads of standard operating procedures, but nobody knows where they are. They were written by someone who maybe is no longer there, or they sit in somebody's, you know, Google inbox.

But dig in um and don't be afraid to ask questions about the things that matter to you. I will say, I also want to just put on my empathy hat for a second. SPEAKER_02: Sure. SPEAKER_01: If you are a CSM and it is a tough market, and you're out there and you're just like, I just need to pay my bills, Miranda.

I don't care if it's organized or not organized. SPEAKER_00: Right. SPEAKER_01: Will that stay true for you once you get in and you realize the company you've just joined is an absolute hot mess? Is that still gonna be true, or will that impact your mental health?

And then you find yourself three months out wishing you wouldn't have joined, and you're out, you know, scouring the web looking for your next opportunity, right? So again, just it's like know thyself. Know thyself and your tolerance to the chaos that is of early stage startups. And maybe you determine that early stage isn't for you and you prefer growth or later stage, because I will say I've seen some growth in later stage companies and absolute chaos too.

But usually it's a little bit more fleshed out because you have to have some semblance of organization to get to that point. SPEAKER_00: 100%. Yeah, and I think it's I think it's good advice too, right? I think um it is kind of that it is kind of that balance because at the end of the day, a job is like, yes, you need to pay the bills, but it is a long-term, like in terms of your career, it's a long-term investment, you know, it whether it's for your own personal growth, but also too, there's those implications of mental health and you know, making sure that you're put into an environment where you could actually, you know, produce results.

SPEAKER_01: Um you just said is really crucial. I want you to think about the narrative. Like when you join a company, they will forever be part of your narrative. SPEAKER_00: Sure.

SPEAKER_01: They will forever be part of your professional narrative until you have been doing something else long enough to where it's no longer relevant. SPEAKER_02: Sure. SPEAKER_01: Right. So just keep that in mind as you're joining.

Um, take off those goggles and really look at it through a real lens. And don't get me wrong, I've made many an error where I'm like, oh my gosh, this is going to be the best. And I'm joined and I'm like, oh, holy smokes, what is this? Right.

Um, so it's never perfect, but if you can, you know, first start with a list of things you must have uh and then go from there, I think you'll be further along. I actually gave advice on um another webinar that I did, I think it was last week or the week before, where sometimes it's hard for folks to think in you know, terms of what must I have? And it's easier for folks to think in anti-coals. I talked about this in New York City, I've talked about this a few other times.

So maybe starting out with writing out things that you absolutely do not want. SPEAKER_02: I love it. SPEAKER_01: Company size, um, customers you want to serve. Are you B2B?

So you don't want to touch B2C. Um, what kind of leaders do you want to work with and for? Uh, and then start backing into like the culture. Like, do you care about culture?

You're if you're 100% remote, um, what is the remote culture versus in office versus yada yada yada yada? You you get the idea. Start with your anti-goals first. SPEAKER_00: 100%.

I love the anti-goals concept because um it's I think it's also like like, I mean, I listen, I'm not a psychology major. I wish I was, but like it's almost like a trick to the mind. It's so much easier. Like the mind goes negative, like kind of naturally.

It's easier. So it's less taxing. It's like, oh, well, I know what I don't want, right? It's almost like when we're I hate to use this example, but every time we're trying to figure out my wife and I to go out to eat, like, all right, well, what do we not want to eat for dinner?

And it's just like 100% knock knocking off, or or if we're deciding on, like, hey, well, we're picking out a rug or uh like a piece of furniture for the house. All right, well, what do we not like? What's what's kind of the vision? SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, I think it also works too when you are having any kind of a professional disagreement.

You could say, okay, what do we agree on? Right. It's the same type of motion of finding that that common center. SPEAKER_00: So no, I love it.

That's awesome. Um, I guess it's funny, you're bringing up like interviews as well, like when it comes to you know, candidates and obviously the questions to ask. Um, which also I I'm curious on like, even on like on the flip side. I know we talked about some stories about when interviewing for candidates, as far as like, hey, like, you know, what to look out for, right?

Even on the flip side of it, right? Like making sure, because also two at the same time, right? You want to make sure you're putting the right person in seat, whether it's cultural fit, um, or just like making sure that they're gonna do their absolute best, so kind of vetting that out. So I'm curious from uh you mentioned some stories around that too, as far as like from a leadership perspective.

So I'm curious to hear on the flip side of the coin. SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I I don't think I did it this last time, but in previous companies when I interview, I like to have the candidates um do exercises with me just so I can see how they critically think and how they respond to ambiguity or how they advocate for themselves. Um, so one of the activities that I have historically done is I give a list of five things and I want them to prioritize it. And it's like, I'll probably botch the exact because I have it all written down, but it's something like you have a new customer that's just been handed off, a new new customer that's just been handed off that needs to be onboarded.

You have an enterprise customer that's reaching out that they're having problems using your product or service. You have um oh gosh, uh you have interview feedback that you need to put in the system from an interview you're doing, you have a EBR that is due in seven days, and you have uh 10 Zendesk tickets that need your love. Um, and most CSMs don't work in Zen Desk. I want to call that out.

But this is part of the activity, and I ask folks to prioritize where they're gonna go first. A few things that I'm looking for, one is just not the right order, but how they critically think and talk their way through. Two, how they ask questions gives me a lot of insight into the environments that they've already been exposed to. Um, so for example, I specifically call out EBR because I put it with the seven days.

You would be surprised how many folks just prioritize at last because they hear the seven days, and then I ask them, well, what would you include in your EBR? And they don't know what EBR stands for. SPEAKER_00: Right. Yeah, it's a mess.

SPEAKER_01: Those types of things that in a bigger organization you could probably hide and get away with a little bit more because there's probably an internet where you can search EBR and it'll probably come up with a definition for you and tell you exactly what you should put in it and how it should be ran. And at smaller organizations, especially in environments if you are 100% remote, it's going to be up to you to ask those questions and be able to advocate for yourself when you're you're in that environment.

And those are the things that I'm I'm generally assessing for. Now, I will also call out interviews are supposed to be mutual interviews, mutual assessments. It's not one-sided. Um, so I want them to also get a snapshot into what it's like to partner with me and with others in the team.

Um, so it definitely create activities that will allow them to get snapshots like that, like doing a real simple mock um CSM relationship kickoff, where we come in in personas, the candidate puts together a short presentation of their favorite tool. I don't want them to pick use our tool because I don't want people to feel like I'm giving them homework that I'm gonna use later to better the company and they didn't get the job, because you see that all over the place where people talk about that.

Happens pick your favorite tool, the most easiest tool. Usually it's like Slack or something like that. Um, but then they get to see the dynamics of the team and see sometimes the goofiness and silliness that ensues when you uh give a CSM a CTO title or a CSM a CFO title and they get to pretend they're the CFO. SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01: Um so it's a lot of fun. Uh, but we also try to make it safe for them to get to know us and see those dynamics too. SPEAKER_00: That's awesome. Um, I I actually love that.

I have not seen that where you kind of give them like a kind of a sample role beyond what they're, you know. SPEAKER_01: Uh I've been doing it for years in other organizations. And um, don't get me wrong, it's an interview. And I know it's stressful, yeah, but also I think.

You know, we tend to immediately see the folks that can control the room and you know can not overpromise and can kind of feel those wack-adoo questions that are going to be thrown at them from customers because it's real life. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, 100%. I think it's interesting, right, though, because they could go, especially with the ambiguity piece of it, it's it enables them to kind of critically think even beyond, right? And it's like, okay, well, how detailed can are they gonna get?

Like, what is you know a C a CEO or a chief customer officer thinking about? And it puts them in kind of in a different light beyond what their initial responsibility is, and then brings them, ties it all together. Um, I'm actually curious on the ambiguity piece, right? Like uh I've seen a number of ways in which CSMs handle ambiguity, including myself.

I've you know might done my own strategies, but I'm curious from your perspective of like what you've seen like actually work, right? Like again, you ask the questions of like, hey, three to five questions, you kind of give it, but then that could go a couple of different ways. You get someone that asks a ton of questions, very little questions, but I guess like what is kind of like a good model of where it's like, hey, like this is a good candidate where they're asking the appropriate ones, but also know how to kind of control the room.

I think is a good way you you kind of put it. SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when you're talking about the activity where I give, you know, five different activities and leave things ambiguous on purpose. I also do that with the presentation, I leave things ambiguous on purpose, um, to see if folks will advocate for themselves. I think the appropriate level is the individuals that seek enough information for clarity to make quick snap judgments, quick decisions, but not so much clarity that they want a picture, a perfect picture painted.

Um if someone requires a perfect picture to be painted at that juncture, especially in early to grow stage startups, they're gonna be greatly disappointed when they come in because that is just not the reality. But they should seek enough information to feel comfortable enough to make quick judgments. Um, because I don't want them to be paralyzed by this vision of perfect that will never happen or never exist. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I uh it's definitely uh it's interesting, right?

Um, because there's a lot of ways in which people can ask those questions. Um, but you're right, you don't want them to spiral. They kind of have to have um, you know, that confidence, right? And that conviction as far as what they're recommending um in those different, you know, in that particular scenario, that assessment.

Um it's oh, I'll just add really quickly. SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can give two examples of this prioritization activity. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's hear it. SPEAKER_01: Um one where it went really well and one where it was maybe a little too much.

Sure. Um, so this quick prioritization activity is meant to take less than five minutes of the interview. Period. SPEAKER_02: Wow.

SPEAKER_01: Um, yep, that's it should be like just a quick, yep, I would do this, this, this, this, and this is why, and we move on, right? SPEAKER_02: Right. SPEAKER_01: Uh, it is part of the phone screen. It's not meant to be the centerpiece.

I have had folks that literally say, okay, so they're 10 Zen Desk tickets. I have an enterprise customer that's having problems. Um, I have an EBR in seven days, and they go through and they're like, Um, do you know what's in those 10 Zen Desk tickets? No.

Okay, okay. Um, what does EBR mean? The executive business review. Okay, got it.

Um, and then they go and they say, Okay, in the interview, like when did I do the interview? Said yesterday. Okay, so I might have a little bit of time on that. Okay, great.

And then they're like, I would first reach out to the, you know, executive or the uh enterprise level customer, let them know we're working on it, get that escalated over to support so they can figure out what's going on, do a quick skim of the 10 Zendesk tickets to make sure that there are no other issues that are hiding. Because if I have one customer that has an issue, I might have others. And then they said, seven days for a business review. If I need data pulled, I would start getting the data pulled while I'm doing that.

I would aggregate my feedback for the candidate and prioritize that for the end of the day while I'm cranking through all these things. I'm like, perfect, boom, let's rock. SPEAKER_02: Nice. SPEAKER_01: Then on the other end of the spectrum, it's painstakingly like 15 minutes of back and forth and dialogue about, you know, what does this mean?

What does that mean? Um, you know, okay, well, what what is going on with the enterprise customer? Do I have, you know, what kind of information should I gather? And this and that, and like it's just showing me a little bit of overthinking.

It's not like a red flag, it's a yellow flag, to be clear. I don't completely rule people out. I want them to be able to appropriately moderate for that stage of the interview. And I even cue it up saying these are fictitious examples.

Um, but it's appropriate moderation and getting the level of detail you need and moving on. That's helpful. SPEAKER_00: No, 100%. It's definitely, it's definitely interesting and helpful.

Um, I guess like what I've seen done in the past, um, and I'm curious to get your opinion on this as far as like like candidates will go, and just like, okay, hey, this is the inf this this is the information I'm operating with, right? Like based on what I've reviewed, and I'm also going to make some other necessary assumptions. So that way it kind of builds the story together, right? They can make the assumption, like, hey, I'm gonna assume there's these, and going back to your example, right?

This end desk, hey, something that's more technical, something that's gonna take, you know, out of maybe half of them and a quarter of them or more technical than others, making those assumptions in order to help them tell the story. I mean, would you agree, or like from your point of view as far as if that would work for candidates? SPEAKER_01: 100%. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.

This is this is great and super helpful um, you know, for the audience. I guess like it's interesting. I kind of want to go back just a bit when we're talking about when we're talking about growth, you know, stage or just startups in general versus larger. I guess like like a larger organization, how how would it be different, if at all?

Like I'm just curious from that perspective, right? Because now we're we're giving a lot of good examples on like, hey, you know, we need someone that's gonna operate with ambiguity. They they don't have that structure. You're trying to fish that out.

Does that at all change if you're working at a large organization, or is there just other key things that large organizations are going to keep in mind? SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was at a larger organization, of course, early in my career for a decade, and then later in my career for a short period of time. And I will tell you, it does change quite a bit from my experience. Now it's going to vary from company to company.

SPEAKER_02: Sure. SPEAKER_01: But as a CS leader, I was looking for folks, of course, that could deal with ambiguity. Um, but more so I was looking for folks that knew how to navigate through larger organizations to get things done. Um, especially as a customer-facing professional, the larger the organizations, I hate to say it, but it's just more bureaucracy that you have to deal with in order to get attention on your tickets, to get your renewals across the finish line, you name it.

Um, it's just amplify. So I'm always looking for folks that are, of course, incredibly customer-centric, can, you know, do customer success in the way that is required for that organization, whether that is you own the renewal and upsell, you don't own the renewal and upsell, you're just focused on value and um and outcomes, or you're focused on, you know, you get the idea. It's gonna be a different variation depending on the needs of the company. But then I'm also looking for folks that have worked in matrixed organizations or um understand the magnitude of the challenges that can be encountered when you're trying to navigate through larger organizations.

I will say folks that come from being purely in early stage startups sometimes can't hang there either. SPEAKER_00: It's interesting. SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it you you can't, but I do I have seen, I've seen folks say, oh my gosh, you won't believe how long it takes me to get a response. Like you won't believe, you know, we only do two releases a year.

How are we functioning, right? Um where they come from smaller startups, maybe they're used to constant deployment and they can get stuff done fast. It's just a different world. SPEAKER_00: Makes sense.

No, and it and I totally get it. Um, and it's I I guess like I'm curious now, like if you're an interview, like how do you fish that out, right? Or or even better yet, better prepare someone, you know, going into the role. I guess like what are some examples?

I guess on both ends, really. I guess it's like one, you interviewing, two, how can a CSM prepare? SPEAKER_01: First, if you're a CSM, do your research. Uh, ChatGPT is such a tremendous tool these days.

You can go on and upload the job description and ask ChatGPT to help you prepare. Say, I am a CSM candidate. I'm interviewing a$200 million a year organization, or I'm interviewing a$5 billion a year organization. This seems to be the pillars that they have published.

If they're public, you can go out and you can find their earnings statements, their investor decks, stuff like that is usually made public. Upload that into Chat GPT, tell them what role, what you care, what you care about, what you want to suss out, have Chat GPT be your interview buddy, and also help them, have them create you a guide on what you should ask in order to suss out the things that you care about. Um, that's thing one. Thing two, I would, if I was a CSM in this day and age, and I'm interviewing, I don't care if it's small or big, I'm gonna be reaching out to folks that hold the role that I'm interviewing for and asking them if they have a minute just to chat over their experience with the company.

They may say no. Um, they may not even reply, but occasionally you'll get someone, especially in the larger organizations, that will likely reply and I don't yeah, I'm happy to hop on. Make it more about what does the role look like? What has been your experience, and less about help me get the job.

The minute you make it about help me get the job, people will shut you out because they don't usually have that level of control. SPEAKER_02: Right. SPEAKER_01: Um, but if it is about, you know, like I just want to understand what your experience is so I can have a full picture of what I'm interviewing for, I think that's incredibly helpful. And I would even take it a step further and say, when you are interviewing with the recruiter in the beginning, ask if they can make sure a CSM is on the interview list because you want to talk to somebody who's currently doing the role to help you assess.

SPEAKER_00: That's awesome. I like that recommendation, actually. I haven't seen that. So you're saying, like, when talking with whether it's you know, recruitment and so on, you're you're saying, like, hey, we'd love to during the interview process connect with someone in CFM or similar role.

SPEAKER_01: That's actually doing the role. I see a lot of um I've seen a lot of interview teams that are formulated without having anyone that does the role talk to the candidate. I think it's a disservice to both sides, right? How can you appropriately assess if you're not the one actually doing the work day in and day out?

And also as a candidate, how can you assess if you're not talking to somebody who's actually doing the role? So, and I will add, I know a lot of folks, once they get that far and they have the interview, they could be a little bit terrified with advocating for themselves. Like they don't want to put out the company, they don't want to be difficult. I don't view that as difficult.

And if somebody didn't move forward with you because you want to talk to another CSM that could potentially be doing this role, you probably dodged a bullet. SPEAKER_00: True. Yeah, I think that that always tells a lot about a company, depending on what you you ask for, as far as like in order to make sure that you're both successful through the entire journey. And I think um that's a good piece of advice as well to remember like, hey, not every company is the right fit and kind of keep that in mind, right?

Like they're gonna have to give in some some regard. Um, you know, I know we're we're we're coming up to a close that I want to like to kind of recap, like obviously for the audience, like, you know, again, highlight of the highlight of the show right now today is like, hey, like how can we, you know, better prepare, whether it's interviewers as well as like the CSMs, you know, in the market. But if you had some like kind of like final thoughts and themes of like, hey, to kind of give back to the audience, like what would it be, Miranda?

SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, I know it's a challenging market out there and it has been for a year or two. Um I know that this will probably be unpopular, but I am advising folks to be willing to take a step back in title if everything else matches up. Um if you are a senior CSM and you're interviewing at a company for a CSM role, be open-minded about it. As long as everything else checks, all the other boxes are checked.

Um, if you are a director, be willing to take a manager, if you're a CCO, be willing to take a VP. Um, I I know that that might get me some hate mail, but there has been a bit of I don't even know what to call it, but like a reset almost over the last couple of years uh in customer success, with higher priority being given to folks that have revenue generating experience. And those that don't have that on their resume are struggling to land their next role. So I'm just saying, like, be willing to take that step as long as the culture is right, the product is right, the customer base is right, the team is right, but make sure you ask what growth paths look like inside.

That's a good ask them what is what is what is like what are what is career development look like here? Um be very clear with your recruiter or your hiring manager. Like, I am interested in this opportunity in this company, serving these customers with this team, and I'm willing to take a step back, but I also want to know that there will be the opportunity for me to prove myself here and regain that title, right? SPEAKER_00: Yep, 100%.

I love it. And it's it's interesting, right? Because it kind of goes back to the theme too. When we initially started, it's like smaller org versus larger org.

And I think a lot of people forget like, hey, how an org defines a VP versus a manager or director is very much dependent on the company size, the different departments, what they're responsible for, what they're selling. It's totally different. SPEAKER_01: Spot on a VP at a billion-dollar company is very different than a VP at a five million dollar company. It just is.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a hundred percent. No, I love it. Um, you know, listen, this this has been great conversation, but I'm always curious, and I ask my guests, like, hey, where do you go to learn? Obviously, like you have a ton of experience, you know, developing relationships.

I mean, listen, I always kind of say, like, we're all kind of in it, we're all learning as we go. And I've read like a ton of books and podcasts and all that kind of stuff. But and you have obviously a ton of books behind you. I've recognized a few.

I mean, even good to great just came up in another podcast recently. So that's uh an oldie but a goodie. But I'm curious, um, you know, what where do you go for your learnings or what do you recommend for people? SPEAKER_01: Yeah, first and foremost, for leadership things, I'm a big fan of Patrick Lencioni.

Um, I have, and he's from the table group, I have probably 10 of his books on this shelf up here all over the place. I mean, probably spot his name. And if I wasn't crazy and like to organize everything by color, I'd probably put all my Patrick Lancioni books um in one spot. Um also, uh, you know, honestly, I love, love LinkedIn.

Um I I think that you have to be careful and mindful of who and where you take your advice from. Um because there are a lot of people out there not qualified giving advice, and that is a danger. So if you are a CSM out there taking advice from folks or a CS leader, please make sure you look at their background and see if their advice is relevant to you. Same kind of theme here.

If their experience is only at Google, it's probably not going to be as relevant for early stage startup. Um, while their advice may be good, it may be better for bigger organizations. And then lastly, we were joking around about this at the beginning, but I have to I have to do it. I have to talk about it.

Um, I got bestowed this awesome honor today of being highlighted on LinkedIn Lunatics. I know. I've made it. I made a very it's a badge of honor.

It's it's it I made a very um tongue-in-cheek post on LinkedIn, and it wasn't supposed to be serious, and it was about resurrecting the M-dash. Um, and you know, I post a lot of serious stuff on LinkedIn. I highlight folks trying to find jobs, I put I share playbooks, I share, you know, just a lot of things. And I did this one tongue-in-cheek thing, and it like it got loads of attention.

Um, a lot of people agree, like AI has ruined the M-Dash for us. SPEAKER_00: It's true. SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people are like, yes, we're bringing the M-Dash back. Uh, and it got me on LinkedIn Lunatics.

SPEAKER_00: I have to check. No, I'm I'm so curious. I have to check it out. It's the first time I've ever listened to it, it's the first time I've heard of it, and then it started you started kind of schooling me about it.

And I'll be honest, it's it's hilarious. I mean, I gotta check it out. SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've made it. Like this is it.

I can retire. I can retire. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right. I love it.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me, Joe. SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. No, this is a great, great conversation. I guess like uh, where can everybody find you, Miranda, if they want to connect and learn more?

SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn. I I'm not, um, I I'm trying to start a sub Substack. I can't even say it. Listen to me.

I'm like, is that right? I'm thinking about starting a sub stack, but right now I'm just purely LinkedIn. SPEAKER_00: So that's awesome. No good stuff.

We'll definitely we'll include your link in the description along with the books, and maybe if we find that the LinkedIn uh lunatic subreddit subreddit post. SPEAKER_01: Only if you promise to go defend the honor of the MC. Yes. SPEAKER_00: I love it.

Well, listen, had lots of fun, Miranda. It's a great lots of great learnings too for the audience. But uh thanks so much for coming on. This is great.

SPEAKER_02: Thank you. SPEAKER_00: That's a wrap for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening. If you got some value from this conversation, hit subscribe, leave a rating or review, share it with someone who's also out there trying to build a better customer success or go to market strategy, even if it's messy along the way.

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Thanks so much for being here. Keep building, keep learning, and I'll catch you on the next one. Quick note before we wrap: this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The ideas and opinions shared here are of my own or those of my guests, and don't reflect the views of any current or former employers, clients, or partners.

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