The Hidden Reason Clients Aren't Getting Results - Maranda Dziekonski

There are also likely their annual planning reports that are out there that they put out of, this is what we're going to achieve this year. This is what we're hoping to accomplish. Like what's in it for them and what their expectations are. Correct. Yeah. ChatGPT can go out and find that stuff for you and break it down. You can say, I'm a customer success manager at Bob's Donuts and I sell sprinkles as a service and my customer is Walmart. These are the 5 problems we solve for Walmart. Give me, you know, with their earnings statement, all of the publicly available information around what they have planned for 2026. What personas should I be working with that I'm not? What do they care about? What are they measured on? What does success look like for them? Get the full breakdown. ChatGPT can do all of this work for you. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Customer Success Talks: Real Challenges, Experts' Advice, the podcast dedicated to helping those transitioning into customer success and early career customer success managers. I'm your host, Byron Toruño, and just like you, I'm still learning about this amazing world of customer success. And thank you so much for all of the love, all of the good vibes that you're always sending, all of those DMs on LinkedIn. Super happy to have you all here. And the intention of each episode is for you and even myself to be able to extract all of the information that we can from our guests and apply it in our day-to-day Some you might be able to do, other ones might not, because CS is all about— it depends on so many factors. But there must be at least one smile that we can extract from you. And this is teamwork. I'm not by myself. Each guest that sits down here gives us all of their gold, their time and energy to give us something that we can use on a day-to-day. And today is not the exception. We have an amazing guest, but before we continue, I just want to remind you that we have a new website, cstalkspodcast.com, cstalkspodcast.com. There you can go ahead and follow, you can follow our social media as well. And, um, there's a section where you can also find some mentors if you're interested in that. But what I will say in today's episode is going to be a lot of knowing your customer's business and not just how they use your product. Or service, because we need to understand where is the money coming from and also what do they want from our product so that way we can know how to guide them. And that's what I believe, but then that sounds easy for me being here in Germany at almost 6 PM saying that, but there's a whole work behind. And today we have with us Maranda Dyskowski. Maranda, I forgot to actually ask how is your last name pronounced? You actually, you did pretty good. So, I think my husband's family made an executive decision and they've made a few of the letters silent. It is just Dikonsky. Dikonsky. An executive decision. Love that. When you have a name with so many letters that don't technically usually belong together, you have to make decisions like that. Nice. Dikonski. Okay, got it. And Chief Customer Officer with 25+ years of experience scaling operations and team across startups, including 5 successful exits, one of them a unicorn. A recognized CS leader, you have been named the top 50 CCO to watch and top 25 customer success influencer for multiple years. You have been beyond CS, you have been doing sales, marketing, HR, ops teams, served in several boards. So even before we continue with the topic, if someone is listening to this intro and they get inspired by you, how can one do all of this? What is the advice that you have? How can one do all of these different functions? Yeah, and just be like involved with that and, you know, learning, applying, and mess up and just continue. Yeah, yeah. So, interestingly enough, when I got my start, you know, long, long time ago, I was working for much larger organizations, like $40+ billion a year organizations that had probably around 30,000 global employees. And it was, my role was very defined. My day was very defined. We had our intranet with all of our SOPs, our standard operating procedures. Everything was very documented. And it was a great baseline for me to build my career on. But I wanted to kind of get my hands a little messier, so I joined early-stage startups. Well, I shouldn't say hands messier, but I want to get my hands in some messiness. So I joined early-stage startups. And that's where I got to go in and try so many different functions. So, if anybody, you know, has that desire to want to dabble here or dabble there, go to a place where it's just being built. There's plenty of work for everyone, plenty of opportunity for people to go outside of their swim lanes and make an impact. That's, you know, how I did it. That's how, you know, every time there was something that I saw there was a gap, I'd raise my hand to fill it or not even raise my hand. I would just go fill it. It's better to say sorry than— than yes, than ask for permission, right? Yeah. Cool. I think that this is interesting because I was recently talking with a— now I will call him friend, Tarek, super nice person to talk to. And we were having a nice lunch and we were meeting for the first time in person, super kind. Human being, and he was explaining to me exactly the same thing. Now he's the team leader or VP of customer success in a new company, and he was explaining how he organized all of these past activities by working really closely with the CEO and just seeing how even that person was messing up and learned from those messes as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I found my home in the early to growth stage startups. Some are more successful than others. I've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of successful exits moving from one, you know, phase to the next. And I've also seen some failures. And I love hearing what your friend said, because if you find the right team, it makes all the difference. It's, you have to not be afraid to fail. I'm just going to say that. If you're going to join this world, you have to, you know, be okay with failure, but be able to really rebound quickly, learn from it, share those learnings, iterate, do it again. If you're somebody who gets knocked down easily when things don't go well, early-stage startups would be incredibly painful for you. That's true. That hurts. And that's a lot of getting outside of the comfort zone, but that's one of the best ways as well. And Miranda, today we will be talking about, uh, and this is an episode, I mean, a topic that you suggested. So thank you so much for that as well. Like, what do you feel that is something that we could be doing more or is important and impactful in CS and as individual collaborators? And it's actually that, that you suggested, like understanding the customer's business And nowadays it's not enough to just focus on the usage because even though the churn, and I think that what we don't want is to be seen as product experts. We want to see more than product experts, like be that strategic person who can help grow their business together with how ours grows. But how to do that, I think, like, how can we move from that side of things of not just focusing on usage and starting to understand a little bit more of the customer business. And what I said, do you agree on that? Do you agree that that's why it's important to understand more the business side than only focusing on the usage of the product? So, I'm going to say the typical customer success answer of it depends, and I'm going to explain why. There are many different tech types of tech companies out there. There is vertical SaaS and horizontal SaaS, right? When I talk about understanding your customer's business, it's coming more from a vertical SaaS motion. Let me explain quickly the difference between the two for those that may not know. Vertical SaaS is when you have a software that you are solving a unique problem in an industry or for a particular persona. I'll give an example. I worked at a company named Swiftly. Swiftly powered public transit agencies. That is very verticalized. We worked exclusively, almost exclusively with public transit agencies. I am at FEXA right now. FEXA is a software for facility management. We almost exclusively work with facilities managers. We of course have the provider side as well, but that is vertical SaaS. Now, I also worked at a company called HelloSign. Some people may have heard of HelloSign. It was an electronic signature company, DocuSign competitor, acquired by Dropbox. It's now called Dropbox Sign, and that is more of a horizontal SaaS play. So if you think about getting to know your customer's business in a horizontal SaaS play, you're probably going to go crazy because you may have hundreds of thousands of different types of users using your product. And that is where you probably would focus a little bit more on usage than on knowing the business. Now, I'm not saying there aren't edge cases, and maybe you do cater to some typical personas like let's say real estate, for example, would be a common electronic signature use, right? Knowing the real estate business would help you understand outcomes that should be delivered from your tool, but it could be quite impossible to understand the business across all the different users. However, with vertical SaaS, It isn't. And that's where I tend to play more these days is vertical SaaS. So, it makes it a lot easier for me to get to know what do facilities managers care about? What are they measured on? What do public transit agencies care about? What are they measured on? And so on and so forth. This is amazing. I— now that you mentioned about vertical and horizontal, SaaS, it makes me think, in the company that I'm working right now is vertical, because we specialize in hospitality, and then the hotels are the ones who use this product, which is a lot of revenue-oriented, and then I work internally with revenue managers, hotel managers, front desk managers, and then I used to work for DocuSign, but on the onboarding side, and as you talk about the horizontal side of things, I remember that there were so many use cases. Now everything makes sense. There you go. Click, click, huh? Like putting it all together. Look at that. We're only like 5, 10 minutes in. It does. It does. Now let me organize my, let me organize my ideas because— I want to add one thing though, as you organize your thoughts, I am not saying by any means that usage doesn't matter in vertical SaaS. It could. And it possibly does, but you have to go a couple layers deeper in vertical SaaS and understand the different personas and how much they would use the product given the problems they're solving. I will give you an example, and I will use Swiftly again as an example. Let's say Swiftly, we served— I'm making this up, but there's a little bit of truth wrapped into this. Let's say we served 5 different personas, right? Let's say we served the— customer service reps at the public transit agency, the schedulers, the planners, the operations folks, and the executives, right? The customer service rep is going to be in that tool every day. They're in a call center, they're getting calls, their usage is going to be relatively high. Whereas an executive may only log in to pull reports once a quarter. So at the vertical SaaS level, understanding the business, but also the problem statements of the different personas that use your product and the logical usage that would come along with those different personas is always a smart thing to do. It's always a smart needle to look at or measurement to look at. You may, if you lump everyone together and say, ooh, this user, is only logging in 4 times a year, that's problematic. I mean, when you see that logically, you're like, oh my gosh, we have a risk. But if you go a layer deeper and understand, well, it's an executive, they have quarterly board meetings, they're only logging in once a quarter to pull what they need, and then they're done and dusted until the next quarter, that's actually healthy for that persona. It just changes how you look at your portfolio. It might be also interesting to know what they're looking for. So maybe they don't have to log in. Maybe there's another way that we can provide that solution. Yeah, maybe. Is there any suggestion on how to make these discoveries? I know asking questions is important, but I mean, that's just too broad. Yeah, so making discoveries. So first, you should understand Who the personas are? Are you asking me how you make discoveries about the personas that are going to use it or what they care about or which portion or all of it? Yeah, I mean, all of it, but it's definitely important to know who we're working with and what are they interested in. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. How I definitely suggest folks to do it, let's cover two tracks. Let's cover the track. If you have a customer that's new and signed and you're starting to do this today. And then we're going to cover the track of you have a bunch of legacy customers that have been using the product for a while and you're just starting to insert this motion. So easy peasy, you get a brand new customer, they've signed, now they're going through the onboarding motion. That's where you start drilling in on the different personas in the organization. You do that right out of onboarding. Are right in onboarding, pardon me, and understand what do they care about, what are they measured on. Then you create a wiki with the different personas and you use that information to help guide the implementation team plus the customer success team and how they should interact with these different personas and think about the personas. Then you have a nice roadmap to help you understand what does healthy look like. At least in regards to usage, right? And I'm still on usage. There's so much more we can dig in here. Now, if you have a bunch of legacy accounts and you have no idea where to start, again, I would personally bring the group together, like some of the CSMs together, conduct a brainstorm, really look at your customers' businesses. If you have good relationships with some of the customers you partner with, get them on the phone. Ask them, who do you work with? Who benefits from the information in our tool? Who could benefit that isn't accessing it? That works really well if you're like in an unlimited seat model. You know, you don't have to pay any extra for people in other areas to have access to this data. And then start building out your map. Understand Okay, we have, you know, 3 great fit personas, 2 potential personas that aren't in but could be in, and they could use it like this. And then you map it out from there. But again, it all goes back to the original topic that, you know, we are talking about in understanding your customer's business. If you know what it looks like in the day of a life of, and you know what they're measured on, you know what their goals are, that helps drive everything as well. If you are in a position where you're working with publicly traded companies, you can use ChatGPT and ask ChatGPT. And let's just say you're working with McDonald's, for example, or maybe let's use someone else. Let's use Walmart. You're working with Walmart. Call out to Walmart if they want to sponsor. McDonald's as well. I'm not angry with that. They're publicly traded, which means they have shareholders, which means there are shareholder reports. There are also likely their annual planning reports that are out there that they put out of this is what we're going to achieve this year. This is what we're going to do. Hoping to accomplish. What's in it from them, based for them and what their expectations are. Correct. Yeah. ChatGPT can go out and find that stuff for you and break it down. You can say, I'm a customer success manager at Bob's Donuts and I sell sprinkles as a service. And my customer is Walmart. These are the 5 problems we solve for Walmart. Give me, you know, their— with their earnings statement, with all of the publicly available information around what they have planned for 2026. What personas should I be working with that I'm not? What do they care about? What are they measured on? What does success look like for them? Get the full breakdown. ChatGPT can do all of this work for you. I just want to add here, Miranda, that prompting is a whole different topic, right? So I just want to share that there's an interesting website called Lazy Prompt Cowboy, which you can add a prompt and then it asks some follow-up questions and it improves the prompt. So the response will be also better. What was it called again? I've never heard of that. Yeah, Lazy Prompt Cowboy. Okay, Lazy Prompt Cowboy. I would recommend to check it out. Oh, lazy. Lazy prompt. What did I say? I was hearing Lacey. I don't know why. Lacey. Yeah, Lacey. Or is it Lacey? L-A-Z or L-A-C? L-A-Z-Y. Perfect. Got it. Yeah, Lacey. Okay. Okay. Sorry for my Latino accent. No, no hay problema. Yo entiendo, pero no sabemos si los demás entienden. Yeah, that's a good and like a really good, um, place to go to improve the prompt with the best practices out there. So, yeah. And thank you for sharing about using AI, which is now in our lives. But I was, I was going to say that I feel that isn't this information something that we can also extract from marketing and sales? Maybe if they have it. They don't always have it. They don't always have it. Um, remember, I specialize in early to growth stage startups. And not every early stage startup is this methodical and has this information. Now, if they do, great. That should be part of the handoff. That should be part of the handoff doc. If they don't, then why not get it and then share it out? Spread the wealth. I mean, we can also work and be the team who keeps the ideal customer profile and, and, and the, the, the the customer needs also being fresh to the team. They might change from the day that if they have it, they might change as well. And we are the ones who are talking with the customer. So I think sharing that can be also impactful. And ICP activity should be a partnership between sales, marketing, and CS alongside a product, right? But there, it's not a one and done activity. It's constantly constantly have to iterate on it, especially as your product evolves. If you add different features, functionality, it could change your ICP. You know, as you— if you're a company that moves up market, for example, you know, there are a lot of companies out there that started out focusing on smaller organizations and then went and started focusing on enterprises. That changes your ICP. It changes how you serve. And you said mapping, and I think that that's so powerful because that also can help into scaling in the future. If we have the luxury of having a customer success system in place or something like Vitaly or PlanHut that can actually send massive customer education or can just help you to follow up on which persona receives one. So I think that will be, and I feel that customers will appreciate those conversations as well. Absolutely. Um, you, uh, well, I will, I will say customers are busy too. I'll just call this out. Customers are busy too. Yeah. If you're going to have these types of conversations with them, just make sure you're very cognizant of the ROI that they're gonna get out of it. I mean, there's always gonna be times when you have a customer that you have a fantastic relationship with and you want to pick their brain on something. You want to see if this would be impactful, would this drive value? I highly suggest folks be careful to not take advantage of the same customers again and again and again too much because they get burned out. I've heard it from customers multiple times where they, I love your company, I just need a little less of you in my life. Customer success fatigue a bit. Exactly. Yeah. And I am— this, I feel that a lot of this approach that you're giving out, I think that wouldn't make sense to start with the current customers so that way we learn from them and then it's like, okay, now that we have this set, it's time to start applying that to the new customers who are fresh with us. But it can be messy too, like how to start. Yeah, that's why I suggested starting with customers that are coming in to onboarding first and learning as you're, you're bringing them along. Um, I thought the other way around. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And look, I'm not saying one way is the right way, but here's my thought process behind that. If you are starting out a brand new relationship. The change management that requires, or that is required of the CSM and the onboarding team. You're already working through all kinds of change management things, right? So you're, you're implementing a new tool. You're maybe helping them, you know, take an old tool offline. You're trying to get adoption. You're trying to help them get to ROI, all of these things that's already happening. So if you go in with a framework and say, these are the, you know, 3 personas that we're going to partner with, I want to validate that these are the goals that each of these personas have. So maybe it's time savings, maybe it's improving their customer's experience, maybe whatever it is, like, these are the goals. How are we going to measure these goals? You know, and, and so on and so forth. It's just part of the core of what you're already doing. And they don't know any different. Now, when you go to the legacy customers that you already have and you say, I want to learn more about your business and what you care about and make sure we're driving ROI, and you haven't been functioning like that, it can be a little jarring at first. It could backfire then. Not backfire, but it could be jarring. It is better to have some proven data points that I've been working with, you know, Sam's Biscuits. I don't know where I'm coming up with these company names today, but— Full marketing. I think might be hungry. Donuts, biscuits. I've been working with Sam's Biscuits who do, you know, ABC XYZ, just like you. And we're partnering with these personas to solve these problems. This is the ROI. I would like to try this with you. Would you be open to us, you know, starting here? And then you propose, you know, your initial goals. It changes the dynamic because you now have social proof that this works and you've given them a roadmap to, hey, I want to help you get— I want to help you look amazing in the walls of your organization. This is the ROI I think we can deliver. If we do this. Yeah, you're benchmarking what you're benchmarking basically. Exactly. And it is a, it is a higher touch motion. I know you and I talked before we turned on recording about white glove. First thing I wanted to ask you, like, because maybe white glove, it might be a little bit easier if you have 1, 2, 3 enterprise customers or just high value customers and you have more like that one-on-one interaction opportunity, but then when you have managing 100 or 150, how to scale that approach? Yeah. Or, or sorry, I just came something else, Miranda, or maybe it might not make sense to do it with them and only focus on the few? Yep. You answered the question. Oh, okay. Um, so here's the thing. I specialize more in the higher-touch motion customers that pay tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and sometimes millions of dollars a year. This is not for the customers that pay $9.99 a month. Yeah. Okay. The, the economics aren't there. So if you are trying to figure out which bucket you're in, partner with your manager. To see, here's what I'm thinking. Here's my portfolio. I have 100 accounts. My top 10 accounts pay us $100,000+ a year. And then I have this big long tail that should be in some digital nurture campaigns and things like that. Do we think the ROI is there for the company that you work in? To do a little bit of a higher touch, right? Have, have an understanding of what is the green space available, because the name of the game is you want to expand. Usually it's usually like a land and expand, and the— you have to have the green space there for it to make sense. So what I mean by green space is they have— they're only using 2 of your 6 modules, right? Or they only have 30% of their locations on your product, and you know that if you can drive ROI at the 30%, that it would be a no-brainer for them to expand to the remaining locations. Or, you know, if you could drive a strong ROI with the 2 modules they would likely purchase the other modules, right? So really understand the unit economics to make sure it makes sense for your business for you to do a motion like this. It's interesting how everything starts connecting because if one, if we try, if we're able to map those personas and what's in it for them and their expectations and what we can give them, we can also benchmark between personas and even the the— we can show them the future of where they can be. Exactly. And that's where we can find trends and say, hey, these customers that use these two features and those that are similar than you and are using the third one are generating a little bit more of this. So, I think that will be when— and we haven't even touched about how expert we need to be of the product, how much do we need to— because it's so much of what's in it for each one and at the end, who's the money— the money involved, I think. Exactly. And like, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be an expert in the product. There are some products that are on the more technical side that you may have a team with you. You may have a solutions architect or something like that that you can bring with you to calls. But then there are companies where they don't have those kinds of resources and you have to be your own solutions architect and you have to have that technical lean. And those kinds of products, you can lose credibility really quickly with your customers if you go in unprepared. Yeah. They'll throw it to the side. Yeah. They'll write you off. So if you have a, you know, a software that serves engineers and, you know, let's say it's a vertical SaaS, but it serves just engineers. You have to be able to speak the language of your customer. Yeah. I mean, I will, I will feel like it's a loss of time if that would be, if I will be the customer. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. How to, how to do this with horizontal SaaS? Sounds a bit more complex. It's, it's not that it's more complex. It's just different. So it has been quite a few years since I've worked in horizontal SaaS. But with horizontal SaaS, it is the name of the game is usually almost always adoption and usage. And that is the version of ROI. And, you know, again, I'll use HelloSign as an example. I had defined, and this is years ago, this is over probably a decade ago, I had the health score defined as kind of a funnel. If you purchase 10 seats, I wanted you to be using— I have people registered to 8 of those seats. And out of those 8 seats, I wanted to see that you were sending a certain amount of signature requests every month. Right. And that of course isn't the end-all be-all. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I approached it from a very much funnel-like perspective. There were other indicators, of course. I know this is incredibly controversial. NPS is very controversial these days. I don't know why or how NPS got to be such a controversial thing. But in the horizontal SaaS, I did use NPS 100% to kind of give me a barometer. Vertical SaaS, I used to use NPS, and then I did an in-depth analysis with a particular company and discovered that NPS just wasn't a good indicator if somebody was going to renew or not. It was more of an indicator of how they felt that very moment. I removed NPS from my board deck and the board actually said to me they were so happy I removed it. Yeah, because they, they didn't view in that particular business that NPS was a good indicator of renewal. But I think that's, that's why that has been more of a topic nowadays. I know, I know, but it, it's a data point. It's a data point. Even if it's not a barometer on if somebody's gonna renew or not, it is another data point that you can use to figure out, is, is, are my customers in a good spot? Especially if you can't talk to all your customers. True. What do they have in common? Those 5, 10 that are in red, what do they have in common too? Exactly, exactly. You can take it and I used to run, so I used to run this interview process and it's actually published on my LinkedIn articles where I would give a CS candidate a fictitious portfolio and I would say, here's the portfolio you were going to get on day 1. It is, I think it was like 100 accounts or 200 accounts. Let's just say 200 accounts. I can't remember the exact number. And 100 were in green, 25 was in red, and 75 is in yellow. Hmm. They're all, let's just say they're all similar types of companies, similar spend. Where are you going to start? What are you going to do first? I would take, okay, the greens, of course, to keep them, but I would then focus on the yellow ones, right? Because I feel that yellows take less energy as well. Okay. Here's what I was looking for. I, because they're all similar size doing similar things, why not dissect the green and understand what is going on there? That is causing them to be green and wildly successful, then take those learnings and bring them to the yellow, bring them to the red, and see if you can get some of those red into yellow and yellow into green. Start with the known and then kind of dive into the unknown. So, with my answer, I would have been a red in your— in the interviews? Probably not a red, but I would have talked it through with you to see how you responded. For me, things are almost never binary. It's never yes or no. Yeah. But I do like to see how people critically think their way through these problems, especially when you have large portfolios. When you have tens of thousands of customers and they're lower dollar value, you have to get creative on how you engage and how you manage and how you measure ROI and all of those things. You have to get creative. Um, and I'm always looking for folks that can solve problems in creative ways and not need the solutions handed to them. It's just not, I mean, it's not white and black and white. Like you said, it's not yes or no. It's just, I mean, that's why CS is so dynamic too. Yeah. That's why there are so many books, podcasts, people out there talking about this. That's why they're so, and not only CS, okay, let's extend to marketing, product management. I think that sales as well, of course, that it's just not a something that you can have for everyone the same. I think there are some structure, of course, but what I wanted to ask you, Miranda, is on the part of what have you seen CS, individual collaborators, doing wrong when trying to identify the business and side of things from the customer? Say that one more time. You cut out for a few minutes. Oh, sorry. That's okay. Yeah, the question is, what have you seen CS, individual collaborators, doing wrong when going through this discovery phase? I think first, making assumptions that every business is cookie cutter, even if it's in the same vertical. There are likely, I mean, if you put customers on a Venn diagram and you're in vertical SaaS, You will have a lot of overlap in their goals and their problem statements, but the one thing you may not get is the actual state of the company and state of the business, which might be driving different goals. You could be serving one company that is very healthy and then serving another company that's not, right? So that might change what they care about, might change their goals., even if they're in the same industry. So, you know, it's good to have an understanding of a baseline of what almost everybody in that industry cares about, but then go in making no assumptions and try to get a deeper understanding of what is core to their particular business. Yeah, and I think nowadays we have so much technology. A lot of times our calls are recorded. And we can have several conversations or emails and then have like, instead of assumptions, like literally have the information there and break it down. Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, not to go back to AI, but I'm going to go back to AI. You can provide AI with your calls and say, hey, what are, you know, what are the commonalities here? Especially your goal conversations. If you're having goal conversations, AI can help you surface what people are saying and also maybe things that you're missing. Yeah, let's put AI to work. Absolutely. Let's do it. I mean, it's here. Sometimes it's free, sometimes you have to pay, but— It's here. It's here. It's here. Maranda, I have one last question for you. Sure. Before we start wrapping up today's episode, appreciate all the insights that you have given us. And it's basically, if we have a CSM, let's call him Sam. Let's not add a food to it. Let's just call him Sam. Sam's Biscuits. Last name Biscuits. And this person wants to start doing this discovery. How to start? What would be the first step? I know you gave us already a lot of answers, but what would be the most impactful win? Quick win. Yes, Sam, if you're out there, Sam Biscuits. Um, if I were a CSM and I wanted to get started on this, I would take a look at my portfolio. I would, I would get a simple Google Doc out or something, and I would start mapping out the different personas that I deal with. If you don't already have this information in the walls of your organization, I'm assuming this, with this answer, I'm assuming you don't. Map out the different personas that you deal with. The problem statements, the probing questions that you should ask to help surface problem statements. I would also map out the different personas that you're not actively working with, but you know that if you worked with them, you could solve problems for them as well. Write those problem statements down, the probing questions that you need to help surface those. And then I, would slowly map my customers to each of those to understand what personas do I already have, do I not have, where's the ROI that we're already delivering, do the customers know we're delivering that ROI? That is a big miss for a lot of folks. They're like, yeah, we're delivering tons of return on investment, tons of value. But then you ask the customer and they're like, I don't know, I think so. Like, that's bad. So— You never realize that. Yeah, that's where the business review comes into play, which is a completely different topic for another day, but you got to make sure the customer agrees that you're delivering value and they can articulate that value you're delivering and then go from there. You should then have a roadmap to see your gaps, you know, and the problem statements that you maybe aren't solving for yet, but could if you ask the right probing questions and create the right mutual goals. And then go from there. That's so cool. It was a, a 1 minute 30 seconds where one can go back and just literally write down the step by step and then start. It's not going to take you 1 minute and 30 seconds to perform this. I think it's going to take more time, but I think patience then will pay off. Absolutely. Miranda, thank you so much. Uh, it's been a pleasure having you today here, and also, um, Yeah, like sharing all of these ideas to a lot of individuals out there, including myself, that are going through some challenges and now having something to apply. It's super cool. So thank you so much. Of course, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. And everyone out there, remember, keep learning, keep growing, and let's keep improving the world of customer success. Until next time.