The Biggest Customer Success Managers Mistake: Empathy Without Boundaries

Stop just for 30 seconds, that's all I'm asking you for, because this episode wouldn't be possible without the sponsorship of The Beautique Hotels, located in Lisbon, Portugal, where beauty meets boutique. They have 4 properties: Figueira, Madalena, WC, Dos Reis. But let's start with 2: Figueira. When I saw this hotel, what really stood out was the perfect mix between elegant and modern. It's right in the city center, super easy to get around, and the whole concept is inspired by the feeling of resting inside a fig tree. It's just amazing. Then there's also the Madalena Hotel, which brings true Lisbon charm. The design is inspired by femininity and the elegance of women from the 1950s to the 1970s. It's such a warm, stylish vibe. One of those places that instantly feels really, really special. I will definitely recommend to check out these two properties and the other two, they're coming. Wait, wait, wait. Enjoy today's episode. And one of the reasons why I think boundaries are so important is because empathy without boundaries is self-abandonment. Any relationship. Yeah. And what comes after that? Burnout. Yeah. Doesn't matter if you're a leader, an associate, a specialist, a manager in CX, or you're a husband, you're a, um, son, you're a friend. You need to know how much you are willing, able, capable to give and in which capacity. And I think that applies very well to customer success, cuz you're gonna be there to deliver outcomes, realize value, but within some boundaries. Yeah, right. Like you need to be aware and not only yourself, but you know, you need to be able to communicate successfully to the customer what is that you're going to do or how you're going to manage the relationship or whatever that is. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Customer Success Talks: Real Challenges, Experts' Advice, the podcast dedicated to helping those transitioning into customer success and early career customer success managers. I'm your host, Byron Toruño, and just like you, I'm still learning about this amazing world of customer success. Now, if you are actually in YouTube and you're watching us, You better be there. You're gonna see that there's a different background. I'm here. I actually have legs. This is the first ever time that I'm recording an in-person episode with an amazing guest. And we're gonna be talking about a really interesting topic, which I will present soon. I hope everything is gonna work fine. I hope that the camera is well. We will see at the end of this episode how everything went. But the idea, like every episode, is for you to have a tactical step, any way for you to actually apply what we're going to talk about today in your day-to-day role as a CSM. And now, who do we have here with us? Well, we have with us Diego Ospina Lopez. Diego, thank you so much for being here. You're— we are experimenting. I am. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And just to let everyone know, what are we going to— who are you and your background? You are a community leader. You are a customer success manager. You have been traveling the world. So you have been in Spain, you have been in Ireland, you have been in— now in Portugal. By the way, we are in Lisbon. Yeah, we are now international. Oh my God. Um, and you have a special love for human connection. Yes, I do. Why is that? Very good question. Thank you for asking. Um, I think human connection is basically the foundation for anything else. Right? I think us humans crave people, crave connection, crave relationships, relate to other people, the sense of a community and all of those things. And I think it became a word, of that pretty early in my life. Uh, for example, I, one of my degrees is sociology and I did that because I was always very curious to understand society, human behavior and things like that. And yeah, I think everything that I've done, study, worked at, it's always related to people. And I know it's a very cliché, but I do consider myself a people person. Um, because for me, like that's, at the core of everything, really. Would that be why you are doing CS or is there something else? No, definitely, definitely. I mean, I pursue CX. Uh, you were mentioning Ireland. I studied there and I went there for two reasons. One was because it's the tech hub and the second one because it was very international and I was like, okay, I don't know what I want to do. I was very young back then, but it's like, I want to do something relating to people and technology. And I'm sure I'm gonna get that there. It didn't happen at the end because COVID came and I had to leave. Fuck COVID. Yeah, I mean, but hey, what is it like 7 years, 6 years later, I'm doing that exactly. So maybe not CX like per se, because also like 10 years ago, there was also not a clear understanding and still today it's still like on a definition process what CX is, a CSM role is. But I always knew I wanted to do something similar. Yeah. So that's interesting. It makes sense why you are in CS. And I think that at the end, look, other people that I have on the podcast, Diego, and I also believe this, it's like one of the important things of what we also do is to deliver outcomes, to deliver those measurable results, right? Because if we are not giving what the customer is looking for and we're not, we're not demonstrating the value, at the end they're gonna leave even though they like us and they're super happy with us. But that doesn't mean that building relationship and that report that we create and that friendliness and openness that we can create professionally with a customer is not, doesn't mean that it's not a good to have. It's actually something that is a must because that also implies when it comes to answering emails, when it comes to, uh, success stories, when it comes even to, give some ideas to the guests or guide to the customer and guide them. So I can see how everything correlates here, but I can also, I keep hearing that you said customer experience and not customer success. So I know these are, these are labels, right? I know there's a labels there. Titles. Yeah, titles. I know there are things that people are talking out there in the community about titles and what is it, but why do you keep referring to customer experience in that sense? I mean, I think I'd say customer experience just because it's actually what it is. Like the customer is experiencing something, either a good experience and they're successful, or there, there is a bad experience and they're unsuccessful and unhappy. And I think that kind of relates very much to the outcomes that you were saying. I do think every human relationship is also based on those two things. Friendliness, kindness, and outcomes. Okay. Every, like your partnership with your wife has outcomes. Mm-hmm. And also you need to be good for her, but if you were only just good for her and friendly and nice, but there were not outcomes, maybe the outcome is you doing the house chores, you providing whatever that you need to provide and bring to the relationship. Maybe that's half of your salary. Maybe that's I don't know, helping her with things, supporting her, those things. It's not enough to just be nice the same way that it's not enough you be nice with the customer if the product is shit or you don't do your work properly, you're not delivering or helping them realize the value. Just because you're nice, they're not gonna stay. But also the other way around, if you only provide the outcomes in a customer relationship or a partnership or whatever that is, of a friendship, this also won't be enough. Because you can get outcomes anywhere, right? Yeah. But it's the combination of both that really makes a relationship successful, either a friendship, partnership, or a professional relationship. For me, that, and that's why I'm so passionate about people and, and, and, um, relationship is because I see all of them in a very similar way. Yeah. For me, there is not a differential. Between me as a professional and me as a person. I am me. I'm Diego. That's the genuine part. Yeah. That's the genuine part. Yeah. You need to be genuine and authentic. And, and, and I think that kind of permeates everything. Quick pause here just for another 30 seconds. That's all I'm asking you here because this episode wouldn't be possible without the sponsor and support of the Beautique Hotels, where beauty meets boutique, located in Lisbon, Portugal. Now let's talk about the WC property. This one completely breaks away from the ordinary. It's bold, contemporary, and inspired by the idea of a bathroom as a design space. It sounds crazy, but once you see it, it works amazingly. Every detail is intentional and it's unlike anything else probably you have seen. And then there's Dos Reis, where we recorded today's episode. This concept here is special because when you go into this hotel, you will see crowns and royal elements. The real inspiration here is the local community of Arroios, the most multicultural area in Portugal. So I went a bit deeper into some investigation, and over 90 nationalities in this community is a true melting pot of Lisbon. Here, the locals are the real kings, and the design blends that idea with urban art and the everyday city life. It's just an amazing property. Thank you, Boutique, for your support. And for you listening, continue enjoying today's episode. Diego, I found you super interesting. Thank you. You're super friendly as well. Thank you so much for being here early and helping me organize this. And no, of course, I think that I can, I can, I can feel what you're saying and I can feel the passion that you have. And, um, and, and that explains what, why you choose today's topic. Now it starts making sense. Okay. So it is a good introduction towards what are we going to be talking about today, which is setting boundaries as a customer success manager, not as a leader, as an individual collaborator. Yes. And I, uh, we just recorded an episode, a series of episodes of talking about being a customer success leader for the first time. And one of those episodes was about intentional leadership. And we were touching about that intentional part of leading with intention, but also setting boundaries as a leader to avoid burnout. Let's translate that into CS because it's not easy. We're being dragged in so many directions. There's so many expectations. And, um, we have to switch gears constantly. And I think that there are also some interesting projects that we are being dragged into to work that improves, right, our, our efficiency internally. But, um, how can we actually set boundaries? Because it's not easy. Very good question. A lot of people are, uh, I think asking that question to themselves without actually knowing that. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe they think they're not prioritizing well enough, they're not managing their time well enough, they're not delivering as much value as they would like, and maybe what they are missing is boundaries. Why I chose the topic, maybe begin with that. Yeah. Um, I think boundaries are not very well understood, yet I think they're fundamental. Why? For me, Boundaries are equal to a healthy human relationship. All right. And boundary is not to be understood as a wall that I put between you and I. That's the first thing that comes to my mind, actually. Yes. That's what people usually think. Uh, but it's an agreement for me, a boundary. Uh-huh. It is a preset agreement about what this relationship is gonna be about. Right? Where you have clarity and so do I. Okay. And what clarity brings? Accountability. Uh-huh. And overall a better experience in this relationship, better customer experience, better family experience, better, um, husband-wife experience or whatever that is. Mm-hmm. I do think they're central because They're— humans are complex and relationships are complicated as well. So you need to have tools to navigate that. Otherwise, as you were saying, you just pull. Yeah. Here and there all the time to do things that you don't want to, to engage in things that maybe you don't want to engage. Which sounds like being unhappy, basically. Yeah, because you're not standing up for yourself. It's like satisfying other people except ourselves, maybe. Say that again. Satisfying other people except ourselves. I mean, people pleasing is something that is very prevalent within and without CX. I mean, one of the things why I love CX and I want to keep working in CX in whatever capacity is because we tend to be empathetic people. Yeah. True. And I love that. Those are my kind of people. Kind people are my kind of people. And I think that's great, but I think comes with downsizes. And one of the reasons why I think boundaries are so important is because empathy without boundaries is self-abandonment. Can you repeat that? I think that's super powerful. Thank you. Empathy without boundaries is self-abandonment. Ouch. In any relationship. Yeah. And what comes after that? Burnout. Yeah. Doesn't matter if you're a leader, an associate, a specialist, a manager in CX, or you're a husband, you're a, um, son, you're a friend. You need to know how much you are willing, able, capable to give. And in which capacity. And I think that applies very well to customer success, because you're going to be there to deliver outcomes, realize value, but within some boundaries. Yeah. Right? Like you need to be aware, and not only yourself, but you need to be able to communicate successfully to the customer what is that you're going to do or or how you're gonna manage a relationship or whatever that is. And that for me is how I understand a boundary. Yeah. An agreement. An agreement. How can, how can we set up that agreement? Because it sounds like it's a lot of self-discovery first. You need to be self-aware. Hmm. So guys, but not hyper, but not hyper-aware, right? Um, whatever that means. Okay. But I think in general, if you wanna do good with people, That means that you're doing good with yourself. True. And that means that you need to know yourself. If you don't know yourself, how are you going to do good to you, therefore to others, right? You need to at least have that, I think, as a baseline. And the more that you know that, the better outcomes you will achieve in your personal life, in your professional life, or whatever that is you're achieving. But going back to your, uh, your question. Let me just, just interrupt you really quick because that reminds me of Of a time, really long time ago in Costa Rica, I was working part-time in a canopy tourism company. Okay. And it was super cool. It was a lot of nature and meeting a lot of people and practicing back then my English. And for some reason, this stuck in my head, which is another colleague told me, look, if you're not safe with all the equipment yourself, How can other people be saved? And what you just said brought me to that. But then that discovery phase that we were— let's bring it back to the topic. Like that discovery phase, how do we even start by doing that? Like discovering what? Discovering ourselves to be able to write that agreement. Very good question. I mean, I don't wanna get too deep into philosophy, psychology, although I'm very passionate about that. Yeah. Um, I think you can do many little things to, to know that exploration, experimentation is one of those, for example. I think you mentioned that at the beginning, right? Um, that way you can know what you want, what you don't want. Reading. Reading? Reading, for example. I think re— like reading, it's a great tool for you to know different storylines, different, different lifestyles. Uh, then it can also like spark some interest or curiosity. I think curiosity for example, is a great tool to not only discover the world, but to, while doing that, discover yourself as well. I don't know, I think just doing those things, journaling, for example, going to therapy. I'm a huge mental health advocate. And I do think that is a very good tool for anything in your life, but self-discovery, for example, is one of those. But if you don't do that, for example, through reading, being curious, trying things, new things, exposing yourself to new stimuli. Making mistakes as well. Making mistakes as well. Trial and error. Those things will give you an understanding. If we talk about like work specifically and your role as customer success, whatever, I think self-discovery comes with knowing Knowing what is that you own, right? Maybe that's in your job title, maybe that is not, maybe your manager set that expectation for yourself, maybe they didn't. Yeah. Maybe you need to do that for yourself, but knowing what is that I own, what is that the customer owns, what is that a third party owns, for example, is a very good way to start knowing, okay, this is what I am responsible for. And this is, for example, then what I need to make clear or manifest, uh, for the customer. I think, um, you can set different types of boundaries. Um, they can be operational boundaries and they can be emotional boundaries as well for you at work. I think the operational boundary is the easiest one because for me, it's very straightforward in the sense that, for example, One type of operational boundary can be your availability. Okay. Making that clear. And of course, this is affected by the company culture, the market culture. It is not the same in the US that can be in a Nordic country. Okay. But at least you need to be aware what kind of company you're working for, what kind of environment that you're in. But for example, you have an SLA. Yeah. If you don't have one, you should have one. Yeah. Yeah. Because not having one means that an SLA is always. It's always. Yes. Ah, like always, like no restrictions, you mean? Like, yeah, I mean that like you come to me, you text me, you email me, you call me, then I need to answer to you always. If I don't have an SLA, no. So my SLA is 36 hours or 2 business days. So they know and you know that you have that time to do that. But if there is not an SLA, people would assume that you're always available and that is not good. So understanding how you are being measured, understanding the team goals and talking to the manager. Yes. I think you need to know that because otherwise you're just going to be dragged. So basically, if we put this down like in a checklist, the first step will be experimenting, making mistakes, self-discovery, let's say? Yes. Especially for those people that hear, like, listen to this podcast and they're transitioning and they're new to the job, they need to first know what that is, make mistakes, uh, learn by doing. And I think that's the first, like, you, you should not aspire to be great at the beginning or to be a master in setting boundaries with your customers first year because that's not gonna happen. And that's okay because it's part of the process. Once you do that and then that you have your, that phase, and I think the rest will come. Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I think as a, as a new CSM or starting in a company, even though you have a lot of years, like that first 90 days, it is— that's the good discovery and mistakes where we can say that we discover ourselves, how we picture ourselves in the role. But then, like what you're saying, it's like now there's a lot of space for question. How being measured? What is it expected from me? And then it's like, okay, this is This is who I am. This is what I have done in the past. This is where I'm to be. All right. So what can I do and what boundaries I need to set with whom I need to set some agreements? Yeah. Yeah. 100%. 100%. And definitely that, I think you, uh, made a very good summary of, of that journey. Um, only when you've been through some of that things that you can start like picturing. Your own painting and like with the resources that you have. But yeah, I think one would be the SLA, one the operational boundaries that I would set. The second one would be something that I was saying earlier, which is where you own not only what is expected of you, but how and when. Okay. Okay. And we're not talking about like creating X amount of CSQLs and having them X amount of close one because those are internal goals. They don't relate to success of the customer necessarily. That's internal success because there are two types of successful experience. For them and for us. Yes. Sometimes they're aligned, sometimes they're not aligned. And also we need to be aware of that, but because we're talking about like the relationship with the customer and the boundaries with the customer now, at least, is, uh, you need to know that, for example, if you own I don't know, setting up an integration with a customer and you need to do that in X amount of time. You'll, and that's something that you need to make the customer clear. So this is the timeline that we have for to do this. Okay. There you're setting the, the boundary with the customer then? Yes, with the customer. So we will do this and then we have 2 weeks. Because you know what is expected already from you. Yes. And also you let them know, okay, so we have this and my SLAs are this as well. That transparent? I love transparency. Transparency is a key aspect for a good relationship. Dangerously transparent then. I don't think it's dangerous. I think when you got gatekeep information, that's when it's dangerous. Right, right. Why you shouldn't be transparent? And they appreciate that. They will appreciate it because they will have clarity. Yeah. And then if they wanna demand something from you, they can do that on those terms. If they don't know, for example, let's say that you have only 2 weeks to set up that integration because they're not paying premium implementation. You can let them know, I have 2 weeks for you. Yeah. Because you're paying for the normal implementation. If you were to need more time, or a faster SLA, you can always upgrade to the better plan. Love that because at the same time you're challenging them. Yeah. I mean, you cannot expect everything all the time if you're also not committing to, I don't know, a better plan or whatever that is, right? I think that's why I also appreciate transparency because you're setting the clear expectations of what that is that you can do for them. What is that exactly that you do and in which capacity you can do that? Maybe there is an opportunity for them to upgrade, and so that could be good for you as well, uh, because you say, hey, if you want more, then you can get more. Maybe they cannot, and they have to plan based on the expectations. Yeah, they need to plan based on the expectations, or maybe they realize you're not a fit. Yeah, and that is okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but Diego, you know, it's so hard to say no sometimes. And I think that setting boundaries is a lot of saying no. And then you need to practice saying no. Practice makes perfect. Yeah, but yeah, not when you have a customer that is so demanding and they're a big brand and they know that they can just have what other people are giving them or other companies are giving them, you know? Yeah, but You know, like, as a concept, yes, of course. Um, but you need to be aware of like, okay, what is that this product can actually deliver first? And second, what is that I, as a person, can deliver? What is the value that I can help them realize? All right. You need, that's why the, the, the first part is very important, the self-discovery. Yeah. Because if not, you're going to be a headless chicken. Nobody wants that. You're going to be lost or you will want to fill in gaps that are not yours to fill. Yeah, then you're in a bad position. Then you're in a bad position. So maybe that no is a no to your customer. Maybe that no is a no to your manager. Maybe that no is a no to the product team or maybe not a no, but like a just manifesting that friction, for example. I think that's very important. Like that's why I was saying you need to know what you own. Maybe they make you an owner of everything. Maybe that's an issue of the company. Maybe you should leave that company. That's another topic as well. Like letting go of customers, also letting go of companies, I think. Yes, because that's maybe, I mean, nobody wants to break up with your girlfriend, but sometimes you need to break up with your girlfriend because that is not a fit for you. So why should a company be a fit for your product and you be a fit for the company you work for? Sometimes you just need to let go. And that's, and you will say that in that case, that's when maybe boundaries were crossed, like they were— Very good question. What do you mean? Elaborate on that. For example, so I'm really clear as a CSM how the boundaries I set with my manager, also with other team members, with the customers, but they are stepping on those boundaries constantly. Okay. Well, that's disrespect. Yeah. That means that they don't respect you. Yeah. You, your time. One of the, so I was saying that there are two types of boundaries. Yeah, operational. We were talking about the operational. Yeah, operational boundaries. And also the emotional. Okay. I think that, that's where the emotional comes. So if they're disrespecting your operational boundaries, for example, if you have an SLA and then they're not respecting that because instead of 36 hours, they want 4 hours, 4 minutes. One second. Yeah. They're not respecting that. If they are disrespecting because maybe your manager told you that you own something, but maybe they are adding things on top of that, or they're expanding the scope of what you own without actually having a conversation or like making an agreement with you, again, an agreement, that is also disrespectful. And now that's where the emotional boundary comes in. So you say, okay, how can I make sure that I am respecting myself when others aren't? Because it's up to you. Yeah. You are your own, like, um, champion and, um, defender as well. Your own hero. Your own hero. Yeah. So if you have a challenging situation that will happen, because again, we're talking about humans. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So challenge will arise. Mm-hmm. That's okay. It's just to be expected. So if it's with a customer, if you have very clear, okay, I know what I own, I know what SLAs, I know what I'm delivering, and I know that I'm doing my best here, then you can defend that and you can stand up for yourself and say, whatever happens, happens. This is the facts. Yeah. Yeah. If it's with your manager, it's gonna be more tricky, right? Uh, because there are interests there and so on, but also you can stand up for yourself and you should stand up for yourself. And I even think that you will be even more respected if you stand up for yourself than if you don't. Because if you don't, you're setting up an expectation on how they can treat you. Same with the customer. That's why boundaries are so important because you set expectations of what is that this relationship is going to work out for the both of us. So for your manager, if they don't respect you, uh, you can always have a conversation and say, okay, This is what I understood my expectations were, or this is whatever. And then you can, you can always revisit the agreements and so on. Yeah. Um, and you should, I mean, then that's why— you can test the waters and see if there's a space, a safe space or not. If, yes, of course. If it's not a safe space, okay. I mean, maybe also we're talking from a very privileged situation. Maybe sometimes you need to shut up and do your work because maybe you need that because of your financial situation, because you're transitioning into a career and you need that experience and so on. I think we've all been there. Absolutely. At some point, and that doesn't mean that you're not respecting yourself. Actually, no, you're honoring your needs. And that's also very important. Ideal scenario, you're not in a vulnerable position and that is a safe space. So it's up for you to stand up for yourself and make things clear and knowing that I think most of the time managers want people to succeed and you want to succeed as well and everybody wants to be successful. So sometimes it's just about having an open, transparent conversation. For example, if you're my manager and I don't know what I own exactly, or what is my expectation exactly, then I ask. Because sometimes, yeah, you have a number, you need to save 80% of the ARR. At time of the renewal. Perfect. That is a lovely goal. Yeah. But that needs to be, that has to be broken down for you, for example. And then you say, okay, and then you put an example. For example, have this customer that needs to be saved, but they need for me to, I don't know, jump in a 40-minute call every couple of days because Is that worth it? Is this what I'm expected to deliver? I know that I need to deliver this, but is this a successful usage of company resources? That's a conversation that you can have with your manager and that will set a boundary for your manager because you're actually putting them in a situation where they need to make a decision and also then with the customer. Maybe they need that. Maybe you don't do that, they will churn, but At least you're aware. Yeah. Yeah. Either if you need to do that, then you do that and you like roll up your sleeves and then you do it. Or maybe you say, hey, maybe not. Yeah. Or maybe you find a middle ground. I love that because then you're also touching about flexibility. It's not everything written on stone. Yes. But I, what you, let's see, mm, we, you touch on discovering ourselves. Mm-hmm. You touch on the, I missed the second point. Uh, you said discovery and then the types of, uh, no, uh, the agreement, right? Setting up the boundary. Ah, sorry. And the boundary, which is an agreement. The third one, you also touch on communication, communicating that. Yes. How have you learned how to communicate that? Very good question. It can be so scary too, Diego. I know. I know, Byron. Especially, I know, especially if, if you're saying like, yeah, like, um, we're not, everyone is in a privileged stage in life moment present where we can be changing jobs or just having the authority and the backup from our managers into, yeah, if that's what you want to say to your customer, if that's the agreement that you want to have, the boundary, oh, go for it. Not everyone will have that liberty, like you said. I know, that's what I was saying, like— How to communicate that? It's so scary. I know, I mean, I think first you need to start small. Okay. Hmm. The experiment side as well. The experiment. Yes. It's all about that. And I would say begin with yourself cuz you're in control of yourself. You're the only one in control of yourself. Mm-hmm. You have free will. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sometimes we forget, but you do have, and maybe if it's too scary to start that with a, I don't know, half a million AR customers of yours, maybe try with a smaller one. Mm-hmm. And if you don't wanna start at work, maybe you can start with yourself at work. For example, I don't know if you are very obsessed with actioning 100% of your tasks during that week. Mm-hmm. But you know that doing so will jeopardize some other relevant work, then you'd set a boundary for yourself and say, hey, maybe 80%, it's okay enough. You mean, let me try to understand this. You mean like setting that, that's an operational side of things, right? That is an operational, but also an emotional one because meaning that perfect perfection is not required all the time. Right. I think that's usually what happens that People get, they get scared because they put pressure on themselves and it's amazing. You need to be disciplined and you need to be ambitious. I mean, you need to be, it's good for people to be ambitious and to be disciplined and to be committed to what they do. At least that's what I think. But especially for people that are, I don't know, they want to be high achievers. Sometimes the biggest criticizer or the biggest pressure comes from within. Yeah. So that's why it's good as well to start from within, setting a boundary for yourself. And of course, I mean, it will, it will look different from person to person, for example, and personal example for myself that especially at the beginning, but sometimes from day, from time to time, I also struggle with that, is that I like to get back to my customers as soon as I can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example, I always try to do it minimum 24 hours. Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought about that. But sometimes it's possible, sometimes it's not possible. Yeah. So for example, a boundary, an agreement, a middle ground that I found with myself is like, okay, I want get back to them if I cannot. But what I will do instead is like knowing what the issue, the request or whatever that is, so that I, when I can, when I have the capacity to action that, maybe next day, maybe the following day, then I know what to prioritize as well. So you're working smarter. Yeah. I, that's, that's why I also think boundaries are good for prioritization. Because if everything is urgent or if you want to get back to everybody within the 24 hours, I'm sure not everybody is equally irrelevant, important, but you're giving them the same. Yeah. And that's not good because then it loses its meaning. Yeah. Because if everything is urgent, nothing is urgent. So interesting because, uh, you, I hear that you're talking about 3 personas, the customer, internal, the customer. Than manager or internal operations ourselves. Yes. Now everything is clicking in my head. Okay. Because for example, when, uh, when there are some— I use a lot of my calendar and I try to organize my day based on that. If there's any special project or I need to communicate something, I put it in my calendar, right? That is an agreement with myself. Yes, it is. And when I don't accomplish that, I feel bad. And no one outside of me knows that I feel bad. Mm-hmm. And that the impact of that means that an outcome didn't happen because I didn't respect the boundary while being flexible. Now everything makes sense. That's why you need to keep it real. So if you didn't achieve that, mm-hmm, and then you failed to yourself, mm-hmm, because you were answering a customer within 24 hours that could have waited. Yeah. And then you could have used that time to action that, that you had promised to yourself. That's where boundaries are important because they're actually making life clearer. You're being more efficient as well. More efficient, easier. Yeah. You're just keeping it real. Mm-hmm. Because you, nobody can do everything at the same time and you need to prioritize. Yeah. And the way that you could prioritize, if you have, I think, a clear boundary with your manager, with the customer, with yourself. So again, you know what to expect, you know how to behave, you know what is needed of you. Of course, there's flexibility. I think flexibility is super important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you just are very rigid, but boundaries, they don't need to be rigid. They're also flexible, but because it's not a number, it's not a quantifiable thing. Is, for example, if I can, for example, instead of doing this, I can allow myself to do this other thing. I know that I'm not failing this customer, but I'm also not failing myself. And then you see that that's the emotional side, but also the operational side, because you're using the resources in a better way. Yeah. So they come together. That's like avoiding a lot of rabbit holes. Yeah. Yeah. And there are many. Have you seen any change in your communication from the beginning when you started in CS and new in CS and not knowing what even maybe a boundary will look like in CS? Definitely. Versus today? Definitely, definitely. I mean, I began doing sales. Ah, okay. So then it's even worse because in sales you don't have boundaries. You wanna push that sale. Yeah. You wanna be pushy. You, you, you wanna be like in front of the customer all the time. And I think That's also not healthy. Yeah. And for example, now I, I, I love my, my colleagues and I'm friends with most of my account executives. But, but there's some practices that they do, which is the lack of boundaries that affect me after that. For example, they always give out their personal phone number so that they can be reachable if something happens, which I understand partially when you are trying to close a big deal and then you are handling different stakeholders and then you want to be on top of that. Okay, but I'm not. And what happens is that I create an expectation and I remember this situation which happened in the very beginning when I transitioned from sales to CX within my current company. And then this was this movie production company, just to give a bit of context, movie production companies, they're hectic. They are on the highest level of energy and activity all the time, and they need everything for 2 weeks ago. And it's crazy. And it's crazy. And I knew, I knew that. And I remember stepping into the role and that this was this bug that was affecting the product. And they were like frying me up with emails. With like calling my colleagues, my commercial colleagues to put pressure on me. Oh, wow. And yeah, yeah, they do that. And they were requesting my personal phone number so that not only the admin, but also the users could reach to me, reach out to me to like solve their issues. And I was like— So much darkness, my friend. I was like, And I was of course freaking out. I was like, these are, um, very fresh out of the oven CSM, um, not knowing what was actually urgent and what is not urgent. And I was like, what should I do? Should I do it? Should I not? And they, they were using a lot of like emotional blackmailing. So like, if you don't solve this, then 100 people are gonna be stuck because we cannot, uh, go and do the movie because we need to like buy the materials, do the stuff. Oh my God. And because of you, we're not gonna be able to operate successfully. And that was a very good experience for me to know the power of boundaries. And I'm very grateful. And as we were saying before, I'm very grateful because my manager, she was amazing. Mm-hmm. And she helped me navigate that and say, you know, Diego, we're not brain surgeons. That is actually, might be urgent, but that's actually not that urgent. Nobody's gonna die. That's the powerful part of that, having that support. Yes, it's super important. It's very necessary. The ones that, that have it, the ones that we, that I include myself, that, that have that manager support, it makes your life just so much easier. And let's just say you can go back to them and then help them navigate There is stressful experience. That's what you cannot. Mm-hmm. But if you cannot solve it, you cannot solve it. And also you need to stand strong there because why? Because sometimes you have dependencies and then you need other people. And then I needed support and then product to fix that. I couldn't. So that's why we're saying it's very important for you to know what you own when you're setting up a boundary, because I jump in a call with a customer and then I try to help them navigate the stressful experience and to apologize and to hold space for them and to reassure. How was it happening to her in the call? How were they? They wanted to kill me. Okay. And wanted to leave. Of course they want to, but you need to stay calm, cool, and collected. How do you communicate that? We're having so much, so much pressure behind. Oh, just being human. Okay. Yeah. Just being human with a smile, holding space, letting them feel their feelings, express those feelings. Be transparent. Being transparent. Yeah. That's why, that's when the transparency comes. Like, okay, you listen, they, you let them vent and then you say, okay, so this is the situation. And then you help them navigate that. You, you, you paint the picture for them. Mm-hmm. And then you say, I am here just to let you know, just to accompany you, but I am not the one fixing this issue. There are other people that are fixing this issue as we speak, and that they know how important it is. They're working on that. I'm following up on them. I will give you updates when I have them. And then you can set up, you know, a list, you know, that you, which is also an important boundary because they want you to do it now. You set a boundary and say, no, because I don't own this, they own this. But what I can do for you to feel better, for you to feel supported, which is also what people usually want in life in general, to feel supported and heard and understood, then you provide that to them. Say, okay, every day before end of day until this is fixed, I'm going to give you a Update what is happening, and if there is no update, I'm gonna tell you there is no update. Yeah. Yeah. But you will know. Yeah. Because that's what you have under your control. Oh, yes. On my control. Because I think sometimes I feel as a CSM that I, that a good CSM equals to always be available. And that's so, so, so not true. It is not. It's a fallacy. It is 100% because also there are some things that I cannot control. And that's okay. And I love how you communicate that part of, this is no, first of all, this is the boundary. This is what I can control and this is what I can do. And I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you 100% of what I can control. And then that way you can also, you know, say, hey, whatever happens happens because I did my best, which was under my control. And then you can also, even if your manager is not supportive of you, Yep. If you're very clear with them and then you present the facts, what are they gonna do? Yeah. Fire you? You, you collect the whole history. Yes. You collect the whole history. This is what I did. I maybe could have done better. Let's discuss that, open to learn. But this is what I did. This is what I proposed. This is what I have under control. Yeah. This is what happened. Here are the facts, right? Yes. Here are the recordings of the call. Here's the emails that I sent, this is what I did, this is how we escalate the issue, this is how I manage expectations, this is how I handle the objections, this is— which is what the role of a CSM is, right? Is that otherwise they could be just like the support, but no, there is a role called customer success manager. Or customer experience. Or customer experience or customer whatever. Because you're there. Yeah. And then you're adding that human touch. Mm-hmm. And then you help the customer to achieve success. But what is success? Maybe success in that time is that, is then being hold, understood. It's, uh, champion that case within the company so that a fix is implemented. Maybe that is That is success. Yeah. Success doesn't mean that they're 100% healthy, they're growing. I mean, that, that is, that is the ideal. Yeah. What is ideal in this life? Nothing is ideal. True. So also you need to keep it real with yourself and with the rest and say, maybe that is what success looks like in this moment for this customer, because that's what I did my best and Hopefully the other people involved also did their best. Going back to the story, Diego, I loved how, uh, how you broke it down and, and it sounds like it went well for you setting out the boundaries, communicating. What would have been the other scenario? What would have been the bad scenario in that case? So you jump with the customer, you are in the customer conversation. What? What could have you done wrong? Because what I want to extract from you is to learn what not to do when it comes to setting the boundaries. For me, something that is very clear, it's non— I think something that in general, and I, sorry for always bringing it back to people, but for me, it's humans. Something that humans don't do very well. Especially when they make a mistake, is not acknowledging that, not owning that mistake, not being honest about it. You need to be. Maybe celebrate it? Could be a way. Maybe that's too soon. Okay. That would be too much. I mean, amazing. Maybe, maybe you can celebrate it once. I will embrace what you said. Let's celebrate it. Um, yeah, I think you can also embrace the situation because, um, it will bring you growth. Yeah. Um, because maybe that's, maybe I forgot to mention this, but for me, everything is an opportunity for growth. Everything, especially challenging situations, especially those, and an opportunity for growth despite of the outcome. You will learn and hopefully you will grow. I do think you need to have that approach. Otherwise, you just, then everything's going to be shitty. You're going to be drawn in a lot of shit. You're going to be in circles. And it's going to be like a loop and everything's going to be negative. But going back to your question, which I think is a very good question, that if you go and join the call and then you don't acknowledge what's happening, if you don't, um, are honest about why that is happening, you don't give an explanation, you don't validate their feelings, their struggles, then it doesn't matter how you fix that issue or how fast you do it because people won't remember exactly what you say or what you do, they will remember how you make them feel. So don't sugarcoat it. Never, never sugarcoating. Yeah. You come from Germany, right? Direct, straightforward. Yeah. And you can do that while being kind because sugarcoating doesn't mean you're being kind. Mm-hmm. It's the opposite. You're patronizing the person. You don't need to be patronizing. People know that as well. Yeah. You're treating grownups. Yeah. So you can be 100% honest, transparent, but kind. The power of a smile. I love smiling. Yeah. And I think it holds a lot of power. So you can do that. And also, what are we saying? Like, people will remember how you make them feel because it's true. Like, 2 years from now, that company won't remember exactly what happened, how it was solved, what was the issue. But they will remember if I treated them as a grownup, if I was straightforward with them, if I was kind to them, if I was able to hold space for them because that's how people, that's what people remember. Yeah. When you see somebody from high school and you say, I didn't like that person. That's true. You won't remember exactly why you didn't like them. The bully. Yeah. You won't remember exactly what they told you. Maybe the word to mean something, but you will remember that you didn't appreciate how they made you feel. But same with the opposite. If you see somebody and say, oh, I like that person, or I remember that person was kind, you won't remember exactly why, detail by detail, but you remember that. And that's something that I don't remember. I think it was on a podcast as well, because I'm a huge fan of podcasts and I think it's a great way of learning. And that's why I'm super happy to be here. And thank you again. Thank you for being here. But I think, um, that is something that stuck with me and that's something that I try in my day-to-day, either with customers, with strangers that I meet, or whoever that is, try to be remembered well and try to make, try to make people feel good. Hey, again, that doesn't mean that the product is perfect, that you're realizing all the value, that all of that, but you're making them feel good about the product, about the experience with us, about all of those things, because again, life is not gonna be perfect. So either if it's fixing a problem, if it's like trying to do an upsell, if it's like even setting a boundary, you can make some people feel good when you're setting up a boundary. Why? Because you're treating them with respect. Because you're being transparent and because you're framing that as a way for you to deliver your best to that person. To that person. Yeah. I think also that there are different personalities, right? So there are people who are going to be super smiling, right? Other ones might not smile that much. Other one might just say one or two words. Other one will say 100 words, but it's the intention behind what you say. Intention. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we all feel it as humans. So Yeah. It sounds to me like jumping on that call and just sugarcoating everything and not being transparent with the customer and saying, yes, yes, yes, everything will happen, which at the end will not happen. That, that is a disservice. That is a disservice to yourself first and foremost, and then to the customer. Diego, unfortunately it's time to start wrapping up today's episode. Oh my God. I was loving this so much. It's so interesting. I missed getting started, Byron. I have to stop you. Give me another episode. I have to stop you. You're more than welcome. I just cannot afford coming to Lisboa, to Lisbon every every week. But, uh, I wanted to ask you, so what the 3 biggest pillars for setting, uh, setting boundaries for me, or what I heard from you, is that, or what I understood, is that discovering ourselves, making a lot of experiments, imagining that we are in a lab and we're experimenting, and if something exploded, well, uh, that will not happen again then. Then once we have that discovery with ourself and also understanding what are our goals, how are we being measured, what is, what is the expectation from us, we set the agreement and then communicating that. Is there anything else that we haven't touched on that someone right now is starting in CS is having a complicated situation at job at their work, they cannot leave it. They don't have a manager support. The worst case scenario, is there anything else that we are missing from today that you would love to give to everyone? Be kind to yourself. Yeah, because as we were saying, maybe you're not in a very privileged position and then maybe you, well, won't have the luxury to set a boundary in that specific context, in that specific case. Let's just be kind to yourself. At least it will lessen the burden in yourself. Sorry, again, what? At least it will lessen the burden. At least you will be happy with yourself, right? Yes. Diego, thank you so much again. There's one more question, which I should have asked at the beginning. Okay. I said when I was introducing your background that you are a community leader. You create, you, you unify people, you create a space for them to be there. Mm-hmm. What is that community that you built called Success Hub? What will people expect from it? And by the way, all the links to your Success Hub community will be in the description of today's episode. So everyone, if they're curious, they can also learn more. But what is Success Hub? Thank you. Thank you for asking. Well, it's a community that I'm building alongside with other people as well that are CSMs as well. And I think there's something that it kind of comes from the realization that you need community, you need support. The best way to learn is with other people as well. And alongside with, uh, this, this, uh, group of people, um, We're trying to create that space, that opportunity to meet like-minded people, to learn from each other, to share best practices, to share opportunities to— it's just about like peer sharing. Yeah, that's basically what that is. And of course, we had some events as well where we're partnering with other companies, with other communities, and then we joined forces Because, you know, Portugal a couple of years ago maybe was not as known in general, maybe not such a tech presence. So we kind of saw that need, right? To, hey, maybe there's a space where we connect people that maybe work remotely, they don't have a community here, maybe they are transitioning as well to CX and they want to know more about how the role is, what is the career path, what are the growth opportunities, how you can stand up for yourself. For example, how you can ask for a promotion, what is the KPIs that you can bring into the conversation. All of those things that I think is very similar to what you're trying to do here in a podcast format. We're also trying to do that with a, like in a, like community in-person kind of format, but I think the intention is kind of the same, just help people help each other. And yeah, That's exactly what we're trying to do. And you can always follow us on LinkedIn. We post when we do some events and we're trying to also reinforce our presence here in Lisbon because my colleagues, they've been doing that also in Porto. But also we're trying to— It's expanding. It's expanding, get better at here as well. So yeah, please feel free to reach out and yeah. Do you also do it online? Like if there's anyone outside of Portugal, does it happen or? Sadly, no, we're very focused on the country. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, you have other communities which are so great that I think they have a more like global presence or at least European presence. For now, because we're still young, we're still like focusing on in-person opportunities and events and interactions here in either Lisbon or Porto. So cool, because it makes it so unique then. It makes it like, um, you will hear what the CSMs in Portugal, challengers, are going through, which is not the same as in Germany, as in the US. Not at all. Yeah. A CSM from a, uh, I don't know, from Meta or Google, LinkedIn in San Francisco won't have the same experience as a CSM from a scale-up in Lisbon, which was my case. So that's why I think it's even more valuable to bring those experiences and just treat things with a global approach, global meaning global and local at the same time, where you're like actually trying to merge those two. Sounds so cool. Thank you. Thank you so much, Diego. Thank you, Aran. Your kindness also being here and help me set up all of the cameras that we have here, all of the people behind scenes that no one sees. It's a big lie. It's just me and Diego here. And, um, for, for, yeah, for making this episode happen. And it's the first time I'm ever recording in person. Lovely. So let's see how it goes. Thank you so much. I'm sure it'll go well. Thank you. It's been a pleasure, Waidan. And like I always say, everyone, remember, keep learning, keep growing, and let's keep improving the world of customer success. Until next time. Before we wrap up today's episode, a big thank you to our sponsor, Beautique Hotels, where beauty meets boutique. 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