No Management Experience? Here's what hiring managers are looking for

Speaker A: Tell me why you think that most titles, job titles that are out there, have the word manager in them, not the word leader.

Speaker B: Well, uh, because we need to manage.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: In that lead.

Speaker A: So you'll always see like customer success manager, engineering manager, sales manager. Rarely would you see a title. Once in a while you'll see it. Rarely would you see a title that says something, something sales leader or customer success leader. Right. And the reason for that is that. So management is a function, but leadership is a behavior.

Speaker B: Mhm. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the reason that you don't see leader in a title is because it's almost like imposing it on somebody, saying that, oh, you have to lead. These people, they don't know how you're going to lead. Right. So management is what your function is and your task. Right. You're going to be managing people, you're going to be managing clients, you're going to be managing something. But then if they put leader in the title, that means that they're almost like imposing it on you, that this is the behavior you need to have, which I actually think is better in the long term.

Speaker B: Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Customer Success Talks Real Challenges, Experts Advice. The podcast dedicated to helping those transitioning into customer success and early career customer success managers. I'm um, your host Byron Toruno. And just like you, I'm still learning about this amazing world of customer success. Today is not going to be the exception. Today we're going to have another great episode with another amazing guest that puts their energy, their time and just sit down here with me to talk about a really important topic which is how to find a job as a first time leader in customer success. So let me just recap a little bit of what has happened so everything makes sense. This is the last episode of a, ah, series of episodes called Becoming a CS Leader for the first time. And we have recorded with professionals that have a ton of experience in leadership. And what we have done is to cover different aspects of this kind of giving uh, a guidance to those that are thinking about becoming a leader. Today I don't feel leadership being my next step, but maybe for you it is. And we recorded how to navigate your first leadership role, what mistakes not to make, what mistakes can happen. And from this we heard from a uh, professional who has managed 20, 25 uh, customer success managers within the same organization. And then we also touch about how to lead without a title, how to influence internally, how to create that personal branding internally within the organization. And then the last one was how to stop burnout Even before it starts as a uh leader. So were touching about the intentional leadership. What are we going to be talking today? So today is going to be that last piece of the puzzle that I believe that is missing right now in this series which is actually how to find a job when you don't have previous leadership experience but you know that you are ready and you have been working for this. So I feel that sometimes there is a moment in our careers where we stop asking how do I become a better CSM as an individual collaborator and maybe we start asking how, why am I not leading? Right. So we have others, we have mentored others, we have taken ownership between project. We have been a uh, cross functional teams communication but we haven't been able to reach that leadership role that we want. And there's different scenarios and I promise I'm about to finish the intro, sorry but it's super important because this is going to be what is going to start today's episode. And sometimes it could be that you are within the same organization and there is space. You have been growing, you have been taking ownerships and now you are a leader. It could be maybe that you have to compete with external candidates within the same organization or maybe there's no space and you have to go and look externally and that's the part that we're going to be tackling today when we look externally and even sometimes when you compete with other ones within this organization. What can we do to have increased the chances of being hired without having those three or five years of management experience required. And for that we have. Pumica Arora is a seasoned GTM go to market and customer success leader with two decades of experience. Two decades of experience in this space. She brings a diverse set of expertise including management consulting for the four big four and CS executive and advisory positions for tech companies across the globe. She's the founder of Soft Day Services whose mission is to get GTM professionals and businesses with transitions and clear thought coaching and consulting. I'm a former, I'm m a former, I will say student from rough day as well. And uh Bumika thank you so much for being here with me. I will drink a water because that was a really long intro. Welcome.

Speaker A: Thank you. And we tried to condense it um, I think overall also human um is a good part of the intro because sometimes we're a bit more robotic. So thank you for inviting me. Byron, always a pleasure speaking with you and um, being a former student, protege, whatever you want to call um it always a pleasure speaking with you? Yeah.

Speaker B: No, we have to meet at some point. It's crazy that we haven't been able to. You're in Canada, I'm in Germany. But at some point. This is the third episode where you are invited and you have an idea, kind of. It's a test here. Do you have an idea? When was the first episode that we recorded?

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. It's been.

Speaker B: It's been a while.

Speaker A: Two years, I think. Yeah, it has been about two years. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah. Two years and a half. It was my seventh episode ever recorded.

Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, very beginning stages. Actually, that was around the time that I had just started Rough Day or started forming what Rough Day actually is. So we've both done a lot of work in the last two years.

Speaker B: I have also seen how Rough Day has transitioned as well. And you have transitioned as well since that. That was August20023. Yeah, it was. From rocky to pro. Making the most of your first three months as a CSM.

Speaker A: 30 days. First three months. Yeah. Yeah, I remember. And we had Lara on the. On the session as well. It was. I think we need to do a refresher of that because now your first 90 days look very different.

Speaker B: Yeah. And now I also went through that as well, so I have even more to share.

Speaker A: Yeah, please share your experiences as well, Pumica.

Speaker B: Let's see. There's so much to touch on today. This is such going to be a really powerful episode where we will be touching, um, and hearing from you how we can find and be successful when we actually want to find that first job as a leader. But we don't have those three, five years of experience. So from the hiring side, why is there a gap existing and how can someone breach it when it comes to that? Don't have those three to five years of leadership.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, I'll start with. With a question actually for you. Tell me why you think that most titles, job titles that are out there, have the word manager in them, not the word leader.

Speaker B: Well, because we need to manage.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: In that lead.

Speaker A: So you'll always see like customer success manager, engineering manager, sales manager. Rarely would you see a title once in a while, you'll see it rare. Would you see a title that says something, something Sales leader or customer success leader. Right. And the reason for that is that. So management is a function, but leadership is a behavior.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the reason that you. You don't see leader in a title is because it's almost like imposing it on somebody, saying that, oh, you have to lead these people they don't know how you're going to lead. Right? So management is what your function is and your task, right? You're going to be managing people, you're going to be managing clients, you're going to be managing something. But then if they put leader in the title, that means that they're almost like imposing it on you, that this is the behavior you need to have, which I actually think is better in the long term. You should have leadership in the title, if you actually.

Speaker B: It even sounds more clear as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Um, but that also brings me to the second point, which is because leadership is a behavior, it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to be a manager in order to be a leader, and vice versa too. You could be a manager and not be a good leader. Um, so they are kind of independent of each other. But we often, um, say them in the same way that you're a leader or manager. It's not the same thing. Right, so. So coming to your question about three to five years, what they're asking for is three to five years of leadership experience versus management experience. Even though that the job description will say the word management, what they actually mean, you're kind of reading between the lines, is they're looking for somebody who has been able to lead complex situations for three to five years. Whether that is leading people in a way. Like you could be like a project manager type role, you could be a mentor and you'd mention a few of these things that you'll try and do some of these things at work and we'll talk about that a little bit more. But have you led people? Have you worked in complex, ambiguous situations? Have you taken on a proactive role to make something happen even though it wasn't your role? So all of these things, all of these qualities are qualities of a leader. But then when they put it out in a job description, it says manager. Right? And that is obviously a little bit like, uh, it's a bit scary to see that because you're like, oh, I haven't had management experience for three to five years. But what you might have done is you've, you've led some sort of function, some sort of role and some sort of initiative at your company that you can talk about, then you can apply for that role. So don't let it put you off. It's just how you talk about it and how confidently you can speak to the work that you've done. But yeah, the reason that it exists and the gap exists is because when the job Description is created. Companies are managing for risk and not talent. So they're taking a risk averse approach where they're saying, hey, if we ask for three to five years of management experience, we are likely to get applications from people that have probably done some sort of management for leadership for three to five years. But what they really need is someone who's done that work. Right. Who's done the kind of work that they're looking for. The tenure is just arbitrary.

Speaker B: Yeah. So this is something because it is really like hidden. It's not that straightforward. So that means that we have to find a way to come up with the story of not only having the management part as a, uh, skill or as a task, but also show that you are able to lead as the behavioral side that you're thinking. So it's about tackling both, not only one or the other one. They're looking for both.

Speaker A: Yeah, they're looking for both. So you could very well be a three to five year manager and apply for the role. You might get the interview, but if you can't prove your leadership, you're not going to get the role either. So you've gotten a little bit ahead than somebody who maybe didn't even get the interview in the first place. But if you can't speak to your leadership style and your leadership experience of that three to five years and what they're actually looking for from that three to five years, you're not going to get the role either. So it's not just that somebody who has never been a manager has less chances of getting this role, but somebody who's even done it may not get the role because you're not able to speak to what your experience actually is like.

Speaker B: Yeah. In reality, do you think that people who do not have experience, even though they do the best way of framing it, the possibilities are low. Just to be completely transparent and honest.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think in general, um, you're always being tested for proof versus potential. Right. M And there's so many nuances as to why that is. Like I said, companies are very risk averse. They'd rather get somebody who's proven and done the work rather than somebody who, um, may be a good potential. But then they have to take a risk. They almost want some like that person to have worked on somebody else's dime and like worked and you know, the expense is somebody else's and then they're just taking the benefit. But this is also something for, for companies to know that if you are putting out a job description like this. And you are purely looking at proof and not potential. That also stifles innovation. So it's, it's a, it's a bad thing too. Right. For, for companies that are looking at only proof and not potential. Like, you'll hire somebody who's got three to five years of management experience. Um, they might have worked at like a really large company and you're a startup, their styles are not going to gel. But you hired them because they've proven that they've done the management work. But at the same time, it might not even work for your company. So, um, when you're putting out the job description, this is something for recruiters to really manage with the hiring managers to say, hey, what is it actually that you're looking for? What is the behind the scenes that you need for this role beyond just the three to five years of management? So instead of you having to read between the lines, let's look at what you actually need in those three to five years. What is the work that you should have done to be able to work well in this role? So, so to answer your question, I feel like I didn't answer it completely. Yes, the chances are low, but that's where you have to be able to differentiate yourself. And I think this is for any role, not just the manager role. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, you might be somebody who's already like, let's talk about, you know, within company promotions. Sometimes that doesn't happen as well. You've, you know, you feel like you've proven yourself, you've done the work, and then still they'll hire somebody from outside of the company. And it feels a little, you know, it stings. Right. Like it's, it's, you feel. Right. So there's a couple of reasons for that as well. And this is again, getting a little bit into psychology. One reason is that you just quietly did your work. You didn't talk about it, you didn't show it, you didn't prove it, you didn't document it. So you have to do all of those things, make sure that you document the work. You're regularly showing that work to your manager, to the executives. Right. So. And the results of it, it's not just, I did this, it's not just the work that you're doing, but the accomplishments. What did it achieve?

Speaker B: And I think this is how you're perceived. Like, how are you perceived?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So the perception is very, very important. Right. As much as we don't like to, to think that, we think that the work speaks for itself and it does a lot of times. But you have to have a really great manager that will be able to see your work for itself. And a lot of time managers are very busy. They're, you know, maybe they're not good managers. And so in order to prove that, you do need to document the work, show it, present it to them on a regular basis, as well as showing the impact of the work not just to your manager, but maybe your skip level manager, which is like the manager manager and other teams that you work with too, that you collaborate with. You'd be surprised. Like even when I was, when I was a VP of Customer Success, the way that I used to get information about my team and seeing who to promote internally, I would talk to other leaders and say, hey, has this person, like I talked to the VP of Sales, the CEO, the VP of um, Operations and Engineering, I would say, hey, has this person demonstrated any sort of leadership when they talk to you? And you'd be surprised how much that actually impacts the work that you do for one team. So don't work in silos, especially in success. You can't work in silos. Like you have to constantly demonstrate that with all of the teams around you. And it's a lot, it is a lot to do. But then it also means that you're not just ready, but you will thrive in the role as a manager.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're already touching on um, a topic that I wanted to touch on, which is how to work towards that then maybe six months before even thinking about applying in other roles. So love that you already touched this and we will come back again. But I think that based on what I hear, there's some things that we can control and we should control. Like what you mentioned being able to show the impact. So that way um, people can perceive you and then when there's feedback, they know, oh, I know Biden. I can see how Biden is presenting all these clear bullet points, updates within the organization. But I think something that is hard to control, it's the leadership style of our managers because there might be some that they have as a philosophy to create other leaders. There are other ones that just have a different leadership where yeah, you have to come to me with a plan and then we work together. Other ones is not like let's start everything from scratch together. So I think it's a lot of also reading the as much as possible the your manager's personality. But if we touch, if we focus on the CV Sidebomica, which is actually even before applying to this role. And you already touched on what we could do before, because this is where people lose the opportunity before even the interview happens. Right. Sometimes how to position leadership without the title within the cv. So that way it's catched by AI. A lot of companies are using it, or just catch the eye of that person who read it within 20, 25 seconds.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, the ATS is a whole conversation on its own. Right. You know, speaking to a lot of hiring managers, by the way, they say that even the. The cvs, that CVS or resumes in this part of the world that are taken out by the ats, they do have a human gut goes in and looks at them just to make sure that they're not dismissing important candidates. And I've heard this from multiple hiring managers. I used to do the same thing, despite having an ats. So I would say that, first of all, don't worry too much about the ats, okay? Let's not worry too much about having the title in your role. The demonstration of your management and your leadership is more important. Right? So let's say you haven't managed, for example, you haven't managed people in your previous roles, but the. The role that you're applying for is a people manager role. Again, that is a gap to bridge. Now, there's a couple of ways that you can do this. One is, like you said, you have to start beforehand, right? It is very difficult to say, oh, you know, today I'm just going to wake up and apply to a role where I'm managing people, even though I haven't done it before. You do have to demonstrate it and start working towards it. I would say even more than six months. You mentioned six months. I would say even like at least a year before.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Where you're really showing that you can manage people, you can deal with people. Issues are a very specific thing, by the way. So, you know, working through somebody's personal issues, when they come to work, their professional growth, how are you actually advocating for this person? How are you actually.

Speaker B: Resources.

Speaker A: Exactly. So those stories of how you've mentored somebody, how you've coached somebody at work, how you've coached somebody in your personal life, Right now there's so many forums, including Rough Day, there's so many opportunities to actually mentor and grow people outside of your job. And you are not just your job, you are a person. You are a whole person outside of your job that does all of these things. So you can actually mention those in your resume, in your CV saying that You've been a part of a program, let's say you've been a part of Rough Day Services, the mentorship program where you have mentored 10 different people and they have been able to secure their next role in cs or they've grown in a, in a leadership role. They've been able to demonstrate their, their work, um, in a way that it actually was given kudos at their job. It could be something even small, right, that, hey, you help them with presenting a set of goals and things that, you know, actually helped with achieving something at work. So what have you helped people with? Right, that's the question. What have you actually done to manage people both at work and outside of work? Lead people. Sorry, not manage people, lead people if you don't have direct management experience, but

Speaker B: how to show the impact in this

Speaker A: letters, exactly what I said. Like if you have, for example, helped somebody secure a job outside of work, like you've helped them, you've coached them exactly what we do, right? And they've been able to secure an opportunity. You've helped them in their career growth or even better, somebody that was maybe struggling with their role and you helped coach them to be more successful at their role and they were able to make an impact at their job. And you can talk about this in your resume. So it could be a work. It's better if it is at work. So definitely look for mentorship opportunities within your job. But if you don't have those opportunities, you can look for them outside of your job. There's also like all these Big Brother programs. Big, uh, Brother, Big Sister programs. There's, there's a lot of volunteer opportunities where you can do that work. But you have to show that you're putting in the effort to do that work, to coach somebody, to mentor them and show the impact of what that has achieved for that person. Then you can talk about it in your resume and your cv. The other side of it that I would say is that, you know, being a leader is of course, people management is part of it. You might not even be a people manager leader. Like there's a lot of positions out there that are director roles that are ICs individual contributors, but they really expect you to have a very high analytical standard and business acumen. So let's say that the requirement is, you know, be able to work with implementing automations for your org. You have to know what the result of that automation is or that AI, right? Like we talk about AI. Like are you able to implement this AI tool or whatever you can do that again outside of work as well. Or you can start to build that within your current role to make your daily life easier. There's this, this person that I was talking to and she was saying that she has like all these agents that she fires up in the morning, AI agents that she built for herself, that just makes her entire day much, much easier so that she doesn't have to do that work. Right. So just knowing that, demonstrating that you do have to do the work before, unfortunately you have to do the work before you actually get the opportunity to do that work. But once you've done it, you can say, hey, I've already done this work and now it's just a matter of doing it for you. And I will say that the results are always important. Right. Most leaders that I have seen, managers, leaders are very afraid of talking about numbers. I don't know why this is. Numbers are great. You know, we should not be afraid of math, especially as managers. You cannot be afraid of math because you're constantly going to be demonstrating it. But what are your metrics? Half the time we don't even talk about the right metrics or we don't know what the metrics are. We don't know what the impact is. If you are not able to talk about the impact, you are not going to be a successful manager. I'm just telling you this upfront, you might not even be a people manager. But if you do not have the confidence to and the acumen to talk about the results in terms of metrics, what are the KPIs? You know, if it's NRR for customer success, if it's PS scores, like if you're not able to talk through metrics confidently, you are not going to get the job. Especially today, everything is about revenue, especially on the GTM side. Engineering, of course, I'm not talking about that very, very different set of managers. But on the GTM side, if you cannot talk about revenue numbers. Yeah. You are probably going to just not be setting yourself up for success.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because probably the metric that the managers, they're going to be measured on is going to be definitely revenue. Especially nowadays.

Speaker A: Yeah. And often you're setting those revenue numbers as well as a leader. Right. So if you are getting a job as a manager and you're expecting somebody else at the top to set those goals for you, you're probably not even going to get that. Especially for a startup or a smaller company, you're probably going to have to get into that role and you are going to Set the metrics for the entire team, and that's part of your role. So if you don't even know how that works, how are you going to do that? Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, interesting. I was kind of. Because I had a rough time during. And you were part of, with your help, which was amazing. Thank you again. When I was looking for that, um, CS role, it took me one year and three months and all of the Jazz, and I, uh, was a little pessimist towards some recruiters behaviors. Right. But now, as I hear you talk, it's not only about, tell me about your experience and tell me about your stories, but it's also. There are different elements that combined can actually prove that potential. Because I guess that for them, it's hard to measure potential. Like you said, like, potential is also part of it. But if we don't have the experience, necessarily what they're looking for, by building all of the leading others, mentoring others, the analytical side, bringing the impact, it actually adds up.

Speaker A: It does, yeah. Um, and it's not. And I think what happens is, you know, when we were talking, I think you were a little bit dejected. Um, because it's that one thing, right? You're like, oh, I always get to this final stage of the interview and then I'm not getting through. Or, I don't know, I don't get the feedback. Sometimes, like when you're a candidate for an interview, you know, this is for everybody. Um, they won't give you the feedback, unfortunately, even if you ask. A lot of times, sometimes they do, which is very helpful. What you need to understand is that you need some sort of closure on your end to stay motivated, to keep doing what you're doing. Because it won't be the first time, it probably won't be the second time. It might be the third time if you're lucky. But sometimes it could take up to like 8 to 10 iterations of what you're doing. And in this case, we're talking about interviews. For you to actually be able to show the success that you have experienced, it's like. It's like working a muscle, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You have to work it 8 to 10 times for you to actually see the results. And it's the same with interview practice. It's the same with trying to lead or trying to apply for a managerial role. There are different things that you have to do to get to that point, and part of it is just showing up and keep on doing it. I know it sounds silly, right? Like, but it's just not being Dejected, or if you, even if you get dejected, just, you know, getting back up and doing it again is part of what's going to make you successful. So if you give up, that's a hundred percent. Um, that a hundred percent means that you will not get the manager role. But if you keep trying in your eighth attempt, your 10th attempt, you might get it. Yeah, I remember that. You know, there was this time that I was applying for a leadership, um, a manager role and I thought I had demonstrated enough leadership. And in the interview they asked me, they were like, have you ever managed people? And I said, well, no, not directly, but you know, I'm mentoring an entire team to implement a new function at our company. Right. We were, we were implementing a pilot for a specific type of customer success role. And they were like, yeah, but like, mentoring is not the same. Right. They actually said this to me, like, yeah, but mentoring is not leading. And I was like, well, it's fine if you think that, but you're going to find somebody who is a manager that has never mentored people. They just got thrown a manager role because they moved up within their own company and they put in the effort to actually mentor people. Do you think that is a better person for this role or do you think that's actually. Yeah, I asked this question outright. Uh, I was like, do you think that that is a better person than somebody who just got thrown a manager position versus somebody who's actively doing this in their job? Right. Yeah. And finally they actually did say that they wanted to give me the role. And then I actually said no because this is how they think. It's probably not a good fit.

Speaker B: But you know, in your face.

Speaker A: Yeah, in your face. Right. Like at some point you do have to challenge the notions that people come to you with. The interview is a two way street. If they're saying that, oh, you know, mentoring is not the same as management. I agree, mentoring is not the same as management, but it is a leadership function and I'm voluntarily doing a leadership role without being a, uh, manager at your company. So if I'm doing it because I want to be there versus doing it because I was forced to be there, which one is better?

Speaker B: Yeah, but on the other side, Bumika, I also feel that there's like a power. Power. How do you call this? Like a power.

Speaker A: Like a power place.

Speaker B: Yeah, because there is a power. Because if I'm desperate and need a job even sometimes, I cannot have the luxury of saying no. So I think that that's also something that could play against the candidates.

Speaker A: Um, so in this case, uh, the example that I gave, like, obviously I talked about the fact that I said no later, but within the interview, right when it's happening and somebody tells you, oh, but you know what, I don't think that mentoring is the same as you leading people. So I don't know if you're fit to actually manage people at that time. You're being challenged outright. And you can either, and you can either just take it and say, oh, yeah, you know what, you're right and you're not going to get the job.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Or you can challenge it and say, you know, but why not? You know, yeah, like if you challenge it and you actually give them a different perspective and that also shows your leadership skills. Because a lot of what you do as a manager and a successful leader is you have to challenge people. You have to say no, you have to challenge them back, have to give them a different perspective. Especially as a CS leader, you're constantly like challenging people to grab a seat at the table, challenging them in terms of advocacy for the customer. So if you are not able to do that in an interview, that also shows me that you are not able to do that later.

Speaker B: Love that.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, definitely challenge with logic. That that's what I would say in an interview. And you can do that on your resume as well. Like there's ways to challenge with logic on a, on a resume as well. So when you have your professional summary, you can even say, hey, this is, this is what, what my experience is like. And I'm looking for my next role as a manager because I'm voluntarily doing all of these things in order to reach my management position. And it's something that I really want. Sometimes just wanting something really, really bad helps you be in a better position than you not wanting it.

Speaker B: Of course. Wow, Vamika. I love that because it reminds me of me being a bit of afraid and saying yes to everything, ignoring even going like beyond my, sometimes even my morals or ethics because I really needed the job, uh, and never thought about, maybe if I have challenged them, that could also open the door to the next stage. We are constantly being test since the first minute until the last one during an interview. And that's how it works. So I love that story.

Speaker A: How memorable, right? Um, it makes you more memorable in an interview. I'm not saying that obviously, like without reason and just be difficult. That's not what I'm saying at all. But I'm saying that if there is a genuine statement that you want to challenge or a genuine position that you want to challenge. And you have the data, you have the logic behind it, go for it. Because that person is going to remember you. Like, just remember this person interviewing. You probably hates interviews as much as you do. Right? Nobody enjoys interviewing or being interviewed.

Speaker B: True. Yeah.

Speaker A: So to be memorable and be more like, yeah, I really want to work with this person because they're able to challenge this in a way that it makes sense. I think that you're going to stand out.

Speaker B: Um, it shows your, it shows your personality.

Speaker A: Exactly. And your ability.

Speaker B: But Mika, how can we use this famous friend of us, or I don't know if we call the friend, but it's part of us in our day to day is helping as well, AI to improve those CV and match it with the description to go over that first step.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, AI is so interesting, Right. I mean it's come a long way in the last couple of years, especially in the last year. So I sometimes will run something by AI if I feel like I'm not able to articulate it in the way that I wanted to. And I'm sure a lot of people do this and we were talking about this, Byron, sometimes, like if English is not your first language, for example, and you're like, I just can't think of the word that I want for this, I would say that if you want to run, don't run your entire CV by AI and say, you know, make this a different cv. Like don't do that. That I would say go bullet point by bullet point and say, this is what I want to say with this bullet point. Help me articulate it better. Right. And you can actually describe your experience because one bullet point sometimes like it, it doesn't give the whole context of what happened. Right. Your, your SAR method, right. You want to talk about your situation, accident, action, result. But you're like, there's so much more to it. And I want to say this. So I would say like type out the paragraph and talk about your experience and then you can say, help me create this as a bullet point on

Speaker B: my resume to make it m more concise.

Speaker A: That way you're not diluting the quality of your experience without mentioning the result and the action. So that's one way that you can do it. Of course, like if you have the job description, you can copy paste the job description into an AI tool and say, hey, this is the job that I'm trying to apply for. And then you can copy paste your, your CV or resume into it saying, this is my experience. Help me design this for this. That's a good starting point. It will give you a starting point. But generally I've seen that, like, you do need a lot of prompting to actually get to the point that. That it makes. Makes it a really good cv. So, yeah, you can definitely use that as a starting point. But I would say go, just go bullet point by bullet point and talk about the experience that you actually want to. Yeah.

Speaker B: And how to make sure that it stays human. Because I'm pretty sure the recruiters are. They must have. Before AI, they used to receive like a hundred requests or a hundred applications. Now they must be receiving three times more. And they probably already smart enough to know that this is AI or not. That there. There are some, um, signals there.

Speaker A: There are some things that AI does. I think, for example, it hyphenates stuff a lot. So they're like, oh, if you see this dash, you know that AI wrote it. Obvious ones just like, take those out. Um, if it. I would say that even after the output from AI reread it and it should sound like you. So once you reread it and you're like, this doesn't sound like me. Make it sound like you. Like, if there's certain words that you wouldn't use, don't use them. You do need to go through the iterations for your resume to make sure that it sounds like you. I don't think that you should use an output ad as is ever from AI. You should always look through it, make sure it sounds like you. Make sure it actually reflects what you want to say. Generally, I would say that for the summary, write it yourself because it gives you a chance to speak as a human. Your summary is almost like a mini cover letter. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I say this to a lot of people that, you know, have all of these, like, results driven, blah, blah, blah, and like, just use like, the lingo that they think people want to hear. Don't do that. Like, use your summary space to talk about why you are applying for this role. Why do you want to be in a customer success role? Why are you making this role?

Speaker B: Like a mini cover letter?

Speaker A: Yeah, like a mini cover letter in your professional summary. Um, and of course, you can use AI to articulate it better, maybe a little bit. But, um, talk about the thing that you want to talk about, which is, why do you want to be in this role? What about customer success appeals to you? Why do you want to be in this leadership position? Why do you want to be A manager. Do you like leading people? Do you like implementing systems? What is it about leadership that appeals to you? What is it about management that appeals to you? And use that cover letter space, the mini cover letter space in your professional summary to talk about that.

Speaker B: Wow. How interesting is that the way that we can use tools in our favor as well. But also it's uh, there's, there's some work behind it. So thank you so much for sharing the questions and the way of. We can all use AI to think a little bit beyond and maybe be more impactful as well. Now I, I want to move from the AI and also from the CV itself and even one step beyond. One step before. I'm sorry, one step before what we have discussed. So for everyone listening, sorry that we're jumping between different time and spaces around the world universe. But can we, can you guide us towards how would a one year, uh, because I was thinking six months, but then he's right. We. Let's take one year. Uh, someone today sees their self that they want to be a leader. Can we come up with a roadmap or a plan for one year? How would that look like where to start and where should we end In a company, of course.

Speaker A: Um, so again, it depends on where this person is at today. So we kind of need to evaluate where you are, um, at today. Um, and that's something we do at roughty. Like we actually have a career assessment that figures out like where you're at today and where you're looking to go and then you fill out the gaps. Right. So let's say like in this example, you are already working for a company. Do you want to like do that or do you want somebody who's like working at the moment?

Speaker B: No, no. Someone that is. That's a good question.

Speaker A: Because the opportunities will be different. So I'll talk about both a little bit. So if you're already working at uh, an organization, you do have one up on somebody who does not have a job right now. Because you have certain opportunities within your work that people who are not working will not have. If you have folks that are starter level in your organization, you can actually reach out to them and start to basically like groom them a little bit. If they're looking for a mentor, you can let people know that, hey, you're looking to mentor more just within your company. Some companies actually have mentorship programs within their, their organization. So sign up for that. Right. I think that mentorship is the first way that you will actually learn more about how to Manage people, but also more about yourself. And what is your leadership style? How do you, uh. Yeah, exactly. So it helps you kind of get started on just leading people yourself.

Speaker B: Just one comment here before. I'm, um, sorry to interrupt. Umika, I think that it makes sense what you said. Like, it depends on where someone is not only working or not working, because maybe at this stage they are ready for mentoring, because they are. Seniors are the role. They already took projects, they took ownership on something. They already went through the complex. Because I'm assuming that that should also be part of that plan as well. Right? Not only leading, but also showing that ownership.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So you've probably worked on a bunch of projects already, right? What was the impact of those projects? Where did you take initiative? So what are the qualities of a leader? Right, the qualities of a leader, they're good at taking initiative, being proactive with things. They're good at managing people, they're good at managing ambiguity. Right. So maybe you were thrown something in a situation where you just had to figure it out. These are great examples to start documenting. You already have a. You brought up a really good point. If you already have a position at a company that is not managerial, but you want to be manager, you can start documenting what are those things that you are doing that reflects a manager position. And sometimes like, um, you should actually talk to your, your, your manager to see what are those gaps that you can do, you can fill in. Um, because sometimes like, they have like a, a list of things that a manager should be able to demons, so it actually makes your life easier. You don't have to speculate and think, oh, should I do this? Should I not do this? So start by asking your manager, your direct manager, like, hey, I'm actually looking to do more managerial work. What exactly should I be doing to do that? Um, and sometimes I have the answer, sometimes they don't. It's fine either way. If they have it, great. If they don't, you can search for it yourself. We have knowledge at our fingertips today. That's also something that you can use AI for. You can actually, you walk them through your current position and where you're looking to go. And AI will probably be able to evaluate several hundred thousand millions of companies and see what they would actually ask for in a manager. So you know, you have another resource now at your fingertips so you can develop that plan based on what you're already doing. It's a little bit harder when you don't already have a position, uh, or you're not already Working for two reasons. One is if you are really, really desperate, like you mentioned this before, if you're really desperate, you'll probably take anything that comes way. So it might not be the manager position that you want. And I always tell this to people. If you're struggling to put food on the table, if you're struggling with, you know, housing and rent, it's okay to take the first thing that comes your way. I know a lot of people say, oh, don't take the first thing that comes your way. If you're truly, truly struggling and you don't have the bandwidth to think of your self actualization and where you want to be in the future, do what you gotta do for now. Right. There will always be an opportunity for you to, once you have the bandwidth, once you have the financial stability, to think of the next step. I think we sometimes have this perception that we're behind in life. Um, if you don't have a job and you're struggling with, with financials, you know, fix that first because that no matter what manager position you get, that will not be sorted. So you sort this out first.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then you have to. Yeah.

Speaker B: Just to add here on Bomica, this reminds me of. Because, um, it depends on each case, of course. Right. We don't know, we're just talking in general terms here. But I remember that I caused this issue of survivor mode while looking for this because I was not emotional smart enough to say I will not let go this job before I find the other one. And I let it go thinking that it was gonna be easy for me to transition to cs. Coming from a different country, of course, which is the market is different. So that would be something that if someone has the option to not let go of something, to be able to have more freedom of deciding and even negotiating salaries. I think that's like the first mistake that please don't make that I did.

Speaker A: I mean, you know, like you said, it's different. We can talk about all the different scenarios. I do think that if you are very, very methodical and you have the extra time, it helps. Right. So if you don't have a job and you're very, very organized with your time, it helps. But generally what I've seen from my coaching practice is that if you don't have a job, you spend a lot of time kind of spiraling in your head about not having a job, so you're not actually making the best use of your time. And so like I often tell people, I'm like, if you're going to spend 247 just worrying about the fact that you don't have a job. I don't think that you should not have a job. You should have a job first. Right? But if you're like, hey, you know what? I'm in a stable position financially, and I don't need to worry about job security like food, uh, security, shelter, or any of those things, and you have the extra time that is, like, a great place to be in. Right? So, so also map out, like, how much of that finance you have in order to secure your. Your dream role. Right? Your manager role. So if you have six months of Runway, use that six months, very, very wisely. If you have three months of Runway, use that three months very wisely. If you don't have the Runway, get a job first. So, uh, yeah, it really depends on where you're at following.

Speaker B: Following the plan that we were talking about. So the first one will be, let's say we took the initiatives. We have have a way to show that, uh, we are seniors, that we're too complex, and we have. We took ownership, we showed that. So the next step is mentoring. What would be after mentoring?

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so definitely showing the impact of what your mentorship has resulted in. And the reason that I said one year versus six months is it's highly unlikely that somebody you start mentoring today is going to be able to show very, very significant impact in the next six months, depending on how the mentorship, you know, relationship is. So again, you have to document what that looks like and what that resulted in. So you have your, your impact stories, your mentorship, the projects that you're working on, the initiatives that you've taken. And then the next step is showing that you can actually align with leadership in order to be flexible, um, for any of these situations. So working with different types of people is also a demonstration of leadership. So maybe you've only worked with one type of person. So, for example, if you mentor, you're maybe only mentoring one person. I don't think that really sets you up for management, honestly, because it was just that one person. You have to be able to work with different types of personalities. You have to be able to show that when thrown into a crisis that you are going to be able to stay calm and come out on top. Right. That is the next demonstration that you need to show is what do you do in a situation that is difficult, and that is either with people or a situation at work? Okay. And then, uh, the. The last piece is the revenue piece. You definitely need to show what is the revenue impact of everything that you're doing. How do you measure, like I talked about the, the metrics and do you actually know what is going on in that space? Right. You know, things that, things that we don't like to talk about. So like being good with politics. Managing politics is, is a big part of it. And that's, that's what I was kind of talking about. Like working with different personalities. This is more for yourself than to like demonstrate. But you do need to be able to manage different types of people and personalities and what, what the requirements are. Like reading between the lines, being able to gauge how people respond. So it's a little bit of psychology.

Speaker B: Yeah, A lot of the influence part.

Speaker A: Yeah. So being an influencer in some way to be able to get what you need from the situation, that is a good manager too. Right. So if you are influential, you will automatically get people rallying around you and doing what you ask them to do. But if you are not influential, then they won't do that. Right. So how to be more influential and get to that next step.

Speaker B: So I know that the episode has to end at some point, so we cannot stay for 24 hours talking. It's just so easy with you, Vumika. I do have just. I used to have one, now I have two. Thanks to what you just said. So I'm, um, to going promise we're gonna cover this because I think it's also important for everyone listening. So you said mentorship, showing the impact and then the revenue piece. Right. And I think that one of the challenges for me is to how to show the impact of as individual collaborator. If I want to have a email, uh, campaign, like how can I show that impact of that email campaign? Right. So something that we will not touch. But I think I want to highlight the document part that you said and keep that in mind. But then the politics side is something that we don't touch.

Speaker A: Sorry, I was just saying a whole episode on impact and showing results. Yes, yeah.

Speaker B: To the customers value and also for us to grow. But sure. So the other side is the politics side and no one talks about this. And so is there any one tip that you can tell anyone who needs to move the needle around the company and be more political and influence.

Speaker A: So I, I'm going to answer two things. So one thing that I feel like I didn't mention is that people who are already working in a job and they're trying to move up, sometimes there just isn't a position on top. Right. And you almost need to like create a new position for you to move into that is very, very challenging to do, especially given the size of your company. And sometimes you might be. Have you heard of this phrase called too valuable to promote?

Speaker B: Too valuable to promote?

Speaker A: No. So if you're really good at it, it is good and bad, right? It means that you're excellent at your job, but because you're so valuable at your job, they don't want to promote you because then you will leave a void in the position that you're at. So just be very, very cautious. This also comes into politics, right. If you are working in a position and you're so good at your job that they basically will not be able to find somebody to replace you if they promote you. You don't want that position. Right. You do not want that. So what I would say is create a space where the work that you're doing can be replicated. And I know this kind of goes against most, what most people think. They're like, uh, if I, if I hand over or if I create my position in a way that anybody can do it, they won't need me. Yeah, they won't need you. So that you can move up so you can move into better things. And I think that that's also a mindset that you need to have is that how can I make my position redundant? And this sounds terrible where it's like, how can I make my position redundant to the point that I can actually be promoted into something else. Right. So that's the second part of. Part of it. So again, you have to be very careful. Obviously you don't want to make yourself redundant in the process. But yes.

Speaker B: I mean if you like if we pause a second, you're gonna hear my mind m blowing up right now with what you said. Never thought about that. Yeah.

Speaker A: Like why do you want to. And you know what the thing is with AI, right? We talked a little bit about AI A lot of positions are going to become redundant as it is. The thing that is going to stand out is your critical thinking skills and your ability to be strategic and use that brain of yours to do things that AI cannot do. Okay. If you are in a position, let's say that I think a great example is like software engineering. If you're purely in a coding position today, you do nothing but code. You are already redundant. Right. Because Claude can do what you do. So for you to position yourself as, ah, a engineering, like a senior software engineer or an engineering manager or whatever, like your goal of Your career trajectory. You have to be better at communication. You have to be better at observing problems and coming up with solutions for them which Claude cannot yet do because you are in uh, those positions where you're, you're being dealt those problems. Right. And Claude does not know that that's happening. What I'm trying to say is that there are certain skills that will differentiate you and also keep your role going. Right. Your, and it's mostly soft skills. Like as much as I love technical skills, I'm all for it. Your soft skills are what are going to differentiate you. Your communication ability, your ability to lead a team, to figure out a problem, to read between the lines, to read the room when other people cannot, to come up with creative ideas. That is what technology cannot do for you today.

Speaker B: And what you're saying, it sounds like that's the start of many frameworks as well.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. So you getting into a managerial position is going to be you making your current role that is maybe a little more administrative redundant. Um, or maybe hiring somebody else into that position or whatever. Right. Like I don't know exactly what it looks like. Again, it depends on the role that you're in. But you're almost working yourself out of your current role so that you can do better things. Um, and I think that is the politics of it all is that what does it take to do that? How do you position yourself in the organization with your leaders to show that, hey, I know that I'm doing a really great job at what I'm doing, but if you promote me, this will be taken care of, my job will be taken care of and I will be able to do more.

Speaker B: Those are the conversations that everyone can have by following Aurora, Bomika, uh, Arora, and also following Rough Day because this is part of your program as well. Right? Like all of these conversations. But Bumika, let's start wrapping up today's episode unfortunately. But I think people have to. I have to rest. It's 6:30 already here and um, you have to start your, continue your day. People have to do, finish what they're doing but also digest all of this information that you're given. I'm going to, I'm going to ask you two questions based on each stage of interviewing and um, so that way we can do this quicker but also give some insights based on my experience. The first, the first stage of an interview tends to be a 30, 15 m or 30 min conversation with a recruiter. What are they looking for and what is one action that we can do? During the interview process with that first recruiter, what are they looking for, first of all?

Speaker A: Yeah, so the recruiter is generally looking for things like cultural fit, like, are you a good person to chat to? And you know, like, they're, it's mostly behavioral. A lot of times they're not really testing your ability to, on, on the more technical pieces or the, the financial pieces or the revenue pieces. It's a good conversation. But at the same time you have to show that you do have the experience. You have to demonstrate that. You have to be able to confidently talk about that. So culture fit and behavioral interview questions are great for the HR round. You know, like, people say this, like, interviewers are basically. Interviewers are basically trying to see that you're not like a, um, like an uh, absolutely wild person. That's not the job done. Right. So it's relatively easy. But at the same time, you do need to show your confidence in your first interview. Right. So just try to have as much as possible an organic conversation. And not all of this is on you, obviously. It's on the interviewer as well. Sometimes they're like, check, they have a checklist and they're just checking off boxes, which, um, is frustrating interview. But then that also tells you that you don't really want to work for them. Right. But yeah, so, so the HR interview, first 15 minutes or whatever, you're basically trying to demonstrate, hey, you're, you're a good fit for the role. You're, you're a good culture fit for this position and you are excited about the role. I think that is very, very important. And people often miss that out. The enthusiasm for the role, especially when you're in a position like customer success, you're constantly speaking to people is very, very important. They need to see that you're enthusiastic. If you're on board or you're looking somewhere else or distracted or whatever, the interviewer is going to see that. So show up with your best foot forward for your HR interview.

Speaker B: So, Vomika, I made it. I did exactly what you just said. I heard this episode, I listened to it actively. I even downloaded the transcript and I made it. I went through that chartrecruiter. So what I have seen that the next step is a conversation which tends to be a really chill kind of conversation with the future manager of the team. What are they looking for? Uh, and what can we do to go to the team next stage?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm assuming you're talking like in a customer success role, when you're talking for leadership. For leadership, yeah. So the hiring manager, let's say that it's your first time middle management position that you're applying for.

Speaker B: Oh, sorry, I said that wrong. Yeah, that's true. It's, it's not going to be the manager, it's going to be vi. The vp, Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. So it could be, it could be a director, maybe your senior. Let's say that you're applying for like a manager, a senior manager role and you're talking to the director. Let's go.

Speaker B: Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, could be the director, could be vp, depending on the org structure of the company and you're talking to them and the things that you need to demonstrate. Right. The anecdotes that you have of the work that you've done have to be very, very clear. So if you have three to five anecdotes of the work that you've done, be able to speak to it again very, very clearly, uh, and confidently. So let's say that you need to demonstrate how you have managed a difficult team member on the, on the, on the team. So be able to talk to that very confidently and be able to explain the result very, very confidently in those, in those, uh, conversations. It's funny that you say that it's a chill conversation sometimes. Like the chill. No, it's, it's true.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like a lot of times it's a chill conversation and you're like, I feel good about this conversation. And you don't really know how you did. They're still testing you. Okay, so as the conversation might be, they're still testing you again, they're probably looking at, can I work with this person? Can I work well with this person? If I, if I give them something to do, would they be able to run with it without minimal supervision from me? Because they really want you to take things off of their plate. And I think that this was one of the questions that I always told you. Like, ask them what is the one thing that they need off of their plate? What is the one thing you as a manager can take off of the director's plate in order to make their lives easier. And that's the constant thing that you need to have in your mind is in this role so that they have more time to do the things that they can. Yeah. So yeah, those are the things that you should have in mind. Like your anecdotes need to be very clear. How you manage and lead needs to be very, very clear. The position, the revenue metrics, the impact needs to be very clear. And then the questions that you ask need to be all around, you know, let me take this off of your plate. Um, and of course like you're also testing them. So ask you know, important questions that are important to you as well about their leadership style or how they envision like the strategy of the team so that you know that you can work well with them as well.

Speaker B: Sure, let's ask questions. They like that as well. When we ask questions. Is there any third stage? Because I haven't gone through this hiring process in leadership in cs. Is there a third one?

Speaker A: If you are a middle manager, sometimes you can have director, vp, um, different um, interviews with the director and the vp or even like the CCO or the CEO. So yes, there may be another stage. There sometimes can be a panel interview as well, um, which has different teams, team, uh, leaders can get together and ask you questions. Um, that can happen too. Depends on the, depends on the interview. But yeah, it could be a variety of things. Right? Could be a take home exercise, a scenario based exercise. We've worked through some of those together, Byron. Yeah, definitely. Um, could be a variety of things. But yeah, the point is that you want to demonstrate and redemonstrate the things that you're talking about very, very confidently that we've spoken about today.

Speaker B: Where can people find you?

Speaker A: Yeah, you can find me in a couple of places. So um, roughdayservices.com is our website and you can reach out to me from there. You can also reach out to me on LinkedIn. Just search for um, my LinkedIn handle is basically Aurora Bumica. So if you just type it into the search bar that should pop, pop up. Um, and um, yeah, happy to connect, have a chat. Um, and would love to have more people in our community that are doing great work. A lot of our community is filled with introverts that are trying to do really good work but kind of struggle with, you know, demonstrating their, their work. Because we're not extroverts. We don't have the ability to talk about ourselves constantly. We feel like we're showing off. So if those are some things that you're struggling with, please reach out and I'd be happy to have chat.

Speaker B: It's a whole science and I have seen since two years ago that we met how the community has grown in Slack and now in, even in WhatsApp and also seeing how people within the community have grown to, to give mentorship as well. So I think that if someone is looking for mentorship, definitely rough day. You and your service is really beneficial. And also it could be a career growth as well. So it's definitely something that. I will add all the links in the description for today's episode. And, um, everyone knew where to find you. So thank you, Bumika, um, a lot for all of the insights and this time that you're giving us. I think this is the longest episode I have ever recorded.

Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And of course, we talk so much outside of this time as well. So, um, I'm looking forward to doing more of these with you.

Speaker B: Thank you, Vamika and everyone out there. Remember, keep learning, keep growing, and let's keep improving the world of customer success. Until next time.

Speaker A: Sam.