From Surprise Non-Renewal To Sales-CS Alignment w/ Guy Galon Chief CS & Revenue Leader at Obrela

Speaker A: So sometimes when you get to a service review and they don't ask you the questions that you expect them to ask, not necessarily everything is fine. It's like they're not interested. And you can see the difference between year one and year two. So what happened? Why their level of engagement in QBRS drops, why they opened a certain number of tickets before, now it drops. So I think we misinterpreted some of the signals.

Speaker B: Welcome the Customer Unsuccess. The podcast where we cut out the noise and talk with real leaders about their hard lessons in customer success and other go to Market Motions. I'm your host Joe De Grande and in each episode we're going to unpack real challenges from real leaders. Failed tech implementations, a strategy that didn't yield results or difficult customers. But more importantly, we're going to take those lessons learned and share them with you so that way you can avoid those same mistakes with your team. So if you're in customer success, sales or other, go to Market Motions. Stick around to hear from the best. And let's dig into it. On today's episode, I'm joined by Guy Gallon and he's the chief customer officer of Abrella and the mind behind CS cycle. We get into two hard won lessons. First, the surprise renewal that wasn't. And how subtle engagement signals masked a looming churn because the budget owner wasn't the only decision maker. And how sales closed a deal as if a solution already existed which forced them into a design on the fly implementation to earn long term trust. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you do too. Now let's dive in. Cool. Should we uh, should we kick this off?

Speaker A: Definitely. I'm up for it.

Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. Let's do it. Well, Guy, thanks so much for coming on the Customer Unsuccess podcast.

Speaker A: Pleasure.

Speaker B: Awesome. Well, if you're not familiar with Guy, he's the chief customer officer at Obrella. Many years of experience within, um, customer success. So it's great to have you on.

Speaker A: Thank you very much Joey. It's been pleasure and it's very good that we have a chance to know one on one.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure, absolutely. And yeah, I mean um, I guess like in, in terms of like, you know, customer success. Right. We, we, we talk a lot. We've had obviously many conversations. Ah. As well as our conversations through uh, success success hackers like webinars and all that good stuff. But there's always this challenge um, with how with communication with different stakeholders and obviously mainly sales. Right. In a number of different ways. And essentially the biggest differences that I've seen within sales and customer success. Success sales, obviously it's pre funnel but like when they build out that relationship, it's just the beginning and once they're done, that's it. Customer success is there for the long haul. They're there for either a year, many years, um, depending on if you shift the books, depending on your organization. Um, and I know we had a couple of stories when we chatted prior to the call about like some of those challenges. I know you had some stories as well and we could jump in to a variety. But yeah, wanted to kind of cue us off

Speaker A: generally before talking about specific. I truly believe in a very close buy, very close relationship and collaboration between sales and cs. And I think this is a subject that since I've uh, stepped into customers has always been the case. Many years ago I think it was more difficult. Sales dump certain contracts or certain engagements on customer success and move on. I think in recent years what I see or hear and also what I kind of preach and try to implement myself with my team is very close collaboration with sales. So uh, understanding which customers you know, we target, uh, sharing success stories, sharing lessons learned from existing engagements, helping sales to sell it to new customers by sharing the right stories, by building the right case studies, by building the right advocacy. Uh, so it's. I try to give as much reasons for them not to dump things on my table but actually continue the conversation. Not to mention the collaboration on renewals and upsells and CS helping to drive more revenue. So you know, sales of sales, that's their job. That's fine. If we give them good reasons to collaborate, they will collaborate for sure.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. It's uh, it's definitely always um. It's very important. Right. I think it's extremely important because in the success stories is interesting too. I want to definitely come back to that, you know, later on. But it's important to have that too because again also you have potentially, I don't want to say conflicting goals, but your goals are different. Right. When it comes to new business versus post sales. Correct? Um, in a way.

Speaker A: But we also aligned on some of the upsells. On upsells and we knew also, you know, in the way we are different in other means, especially if you know finance know how to do it. We also align as well.

Speaker B: Absolutely. No, for sure. And I guess like, I guess like talk to me about the story when we're, you know, it's around renewals. Right. I think we were talking about where and this happens Quite a bit. Right. Like with. I'm sure we've all heard them, but I'm always curious to hear everybody's like kind of experience with this where a renewal is essentially a surprise. Right. There's a lot of different, you know, times where people have kind of the rug pulled underneath them. Right. Maybe the health score. And that's obviously a debate within itself. Right. Showing green or something's. It's. You think things are going well, but then all of a sudden you're kind of shocked. I know we're talking about kind of a scenario where, you know, that kind of came into play.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was a very painful one. But. And as I said to you, I told you this will be a bit of a white listed with no specific of names, customers, territories. Of course, on anything else, it was an enterprise customer. So yes, health score is just one aspect, but we did have the relationship. So, you know, you come to renewal or get closer to renewal. That was even, I think more than a one year, maybe it was two years renewal, I don't remember. And every time we engage the customer, there was a feeling that the team, there are the team we worked with. And again I'm talking about enterprise customers. It was a big team headed by, let's say the decision. Decision maker, but the budget owner for sure. And maybe partially decision maker, but definitely the decision was also with his team. And we kind of assumed that, uh, you know, we got the team under our control and I think that was the thing that we were eventually blindsided by. And we kept a very good relationship with the, whoever led, not led the team, but who's responsible for the team because he had other roles and responsibilities. And every time we would meet him at least three, four times a year we would meet the team. We kind of thought that the renewal is in our pocket because he said, uh, ah, we are very happy the team says good things about you. The only thing that we didn't do retrospectively is get all of them together in the same room to actually hear. Because his team had a different, uh, agenda at the time. Not because we were doing right or wrong, we were doing fine. We did not, let's say, build enough relationship to not block somebody else, uh, from building relationship for over a year because it was a two year contract. So the other vendor had enough time to build a relationship, to get to a certain situation where they did their own proof of concept or they did a comparison. They said there's not much of a difference. These guys are closer to us. I don't know if there was even a budget difference, price difference. So, you know, push comes to shove, when we came to the real discussion, we found out that they were not planning unfortunately to do a new. And that was a big shock for us thinking ah, that we got it under control.

Speaker B: Got it, yeah. So it's, it's interesting I guess. Like tell me, tell me more about that. Right. Like were there. It sounds like there were no indications whatsoever, uh, of how this, you know, this renewal was coming about.

Speaker A: Yeah, retrospectively they were. Okay. So that's the lesson learned. Right. So yeah, I don't say he decision making, budget order because eventually we thought he was the decision maker and budget owner solely, but he was the budget. Um, of course he had to approve the budget. We knew that the budget was there. So that was not an issue. The issue is that we misinterpreted some um, signals. Maybe today you could say maybe AI will pick the signals. I'm not sure. In enterprise environment when you have a big team, it was a big team talking about 10, 15 people with two, let's say champions that were more ah, influencing the team. And I think we just missed some of the signals. So sometimes when you get to a service review, or we call it, I call it service review with a qbr. Sure. And they don't ask you the questions that you expect them to ask. So something should trigger an alert. It's not like everything is fine. Not necessarily everything is fine. It's like they're not interested because they are. I'm talking about the second year, not the first year. And you can see the difference between year one and year two, let's say year one and the second point of view. So what happened? Why their level of engagement in QBR's drops, why they're asking less questions? Why they opened a certain number of tickets before now it seems it's not completely quiet, but it's, it drops. So um, we didn't, I think, ask ourselves the right questions and hence we didn't ask them the right questions. And I think eventually there were some professional issues that impacted their decision. Maybe they were not substantial, maybe they were not crucial, but they were just a fuel that helped them to take some, a different turn in one junction. Try somebody else. Somebody else gets a chance, they open the door. You know, if they do a good job and somebody opened the door for them, they will probably know what to do. So I think we misinterpreted some of the signals retrospectively.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting, um, I think the biggest takeaway that I'm, uh, you know, I'm hearing kind of going back is it sounds like it's a lot of the deeper questions. Right. And then the signals, like you're. The initial signal you're calling out. It's like, okay, versus the typical customer that is going to renew. They're not asking the questions that you would expect them to ask, which prompted your team for not, you know, or yourself. And the team not digging deeper, it sounds like. Is that right?

Speaker A: Yeah, M. I mean, I would expect somebody who's going for renewal. And um, we were talking about again, I think two years renewal and given the history that we had, ah, which was not short other two or three years before, you know, what are your plans or how will you improve the service and the product that you will. We were providing at the time, what can we do more? I mean, today I know that these are the things that I would like to hear from customers and if I would like to talk about it and they are not really interested that that's a bad signal. Uh, for me, the question is what, at what stage, uh, I find out about it and I think when we found about it, it was too late because eventually we actually connected all the dots together. But that was too late. Yeah. So I think asking the right question was for both. For both aspects, asking the right questions. The team that we worked with, which, you know, as they showed less interest, let's say in year two, we should have picked it up and tried to find out what are the professional aspects. Again, I cannot go to specific details, but we should, we probably will if we ask the right question about the professional. The lack of questions that they have, the lack of feedback because they were very engaged in year one. That's one. The other thing is to try and determine that actually the. The person that was actually the budget approver was not the only decision maker and he was very much relying on his team recommendations. So when we were very sure about that, we should have asked again or bring this topic with him and kind of make it clear that we feel that there is not the same level of engagement and try to bring everyone in the same room in the same table and try to sort it out in a much earlier stage.

Speaker B: Got it. No, 100%. Yeah. I think, um, it's actually interesting when we're talking about asking the right questions, um, whether it's the renewal as well, segue into the next story very much in customer success comes down to implementation. If customer success is responsible for that Motion and I know. And that kind of goes also back for sales too. Right. Asking, um, the right questions, making sure that they're the right customer, the right ideal customer for their solution, if it is a solution of sorts. Um, and then of course, even post sales and customer success, making sure that, hey, has anything changed? Right. And kind of diving a level deeper. So I'm curious, you had a great story about that as well with a customer. Um, whether selling to the wrong customer or not. Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think this is actually a good question that kinds of ties the initial discussion we had about collaboration with sales.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: And asking the right questions. Because first of all, asking the right question is not just CS to sales. CS being, I think I kind of like, like something, call it the quarterback of um, the entire organization on the vendor side. They need to know, you know, how they operate with each and every team and also ask the right questions. And I think that's also a mindset that needs to go from cs, but sales as well. In that specific story, um, I can't say that we sold because that was a very big company that we've doing. We're responsible for the implementation very big project. So selling another project to a customer was not something unheard of. Right. That's fine. That's what we did. And then a function that was doing the customer management, it was not called cs. At the time was puzzled because the project that we sold was not something that we've implemented before. So, uh, this was the first time and that was not a small company. So what do you do? Right. And you know that eventually we didn't ask. Actually we knew from the quite the beginning that this project was sold as a first project to show some, to build some confidence, to create, to show some tracking track record and then go for a bigger project. Okay. Without revealing too much details. So that was like a strategic project with a customer that was around but not spending much. And sales found, um, you know, the right gap that we could potentially fill in. And this ended up with a very, without getting into. It was a very long process of, you know, designing a solution. Right. Talking about designing a solution for a customer when it was sold as if it exists. So at least that was not a. I mean the initial surprise was there. After that, we kind of aligned. We said and understood. So we asked the right question. What's the purpose? Why we did that? What are we expected to do as a customer? No. Does customer is aware. So customer is aware that we don't have it. Of course the answer was no. So let's fake it until we make it. So we eventually put ourselves in a very difficult track, but at least we had the answers from sales. So I will not criticize sales because I understood the big picture. Uh, that put a lot of stress and strain on everybody. It was not just the customer engagement people, but everyone. Developers, testers, project managers, whoever was involved. There was a lot a big team involved with this project that went, you know, uphill, downhill. But we sold probably to the right customer. But the wrong project. Yeah, it's interesting and thinking about it, I don't know if I put myself in the shoes of the sales team, if I would do something different because eventually with all the hiccups, with all the problems that we encountered, eventually for the long term that became uh, not a flagship project, but it became the, let's say the way they tested us and then we were, they opened the door for new business. So we say outcome based results. Eventually we achieved what we were planning to do. The way there was a very, very difficult, very challenging, almost creating a project, not almost creating a project from scratch. That was not something that we did before. That was just. That's one example. Right. But no, uh, that was from established vendor. You take the risks. Ah, you need to prove yourself, you know what, what you have behind, you know, in a year or two from now. And I would. And you take everyone for a ride. Right. That's maybe a one case that you know, still I have burns, uh, uh, somewhere in my, in my experience about this project also. Now the other opposite one is a startup. So you have a startup, you have a product that's okay in. It's not a demo, it's not the poc, it's a product. It's product that still evolves, it has bugs. And then you think you know who your icp, what your ICP is and then this is where things go wrong because sales at the moment need to bring customers, you need to bring clients. Are they bringing the necessarily the right clients, the one that will best fit the SaaS product that you're trying to sell? Not necessarily. Okay, so that's other challenge. So you are actually doing a few things as customer success at this time. You're helping the product to mature, you're getting the customer feedback, you understand from the trenches, what problems are uh there, how you prove the value, how to prove the use case for, for our customers, that's fine. And then at the same time you actually help helping or experimenting with customers that should not be your customers anyway. And Then the question is are you looking at it from a. Okay, they I put the point finger, I point the finger to sales and say that's, that's their problem. No, I would say this is what I always preach also when I consult to and I'll uh, try to also prove it in the way I work day to day. Take it and understand how you leverage eventually other we turn these customers eventually to a good customer if we can and if we not, let's learn why they were not. Maybe they're too small. Maybe their tech stack is not relevant to what we are trying uh to do. Uh maybe their expectations are completely different. Maybe they're too big and they have a team that does something similar to what we do or to our product or they use so big that they have a lot of products and then we're just getting lost. There were different reasons why, you know why they are not. But at least try to again going back to sales, that's another feedback. So we talked about good examples and advocacy. But okay, let's learn from bad experiences with customers and find a way to say okay, these type of customers, I don't know this region in this size where they don't have a focal point, they don't have an owner or they're too big, very much big. They are not the right fit to begin with when we are still stabilizing

Speaker B: the product 100 no, I love, I love these stories because I'm seeing something that like an overarching theme of where it becomes a challenge like long term. Right. Because when we're talking about implementation and that you know that path story, um, essentially like sales is like over promising. Right. And it's something that's completely new, you know and it required, oh it sounded like it required a lot of re resources across different teams. Is that, is that right?

Speaker A: If we talk about the first example. Yes. The second example was SaaS product so very let's say lean implementation. But still we had a lot of hiccups in the first one that was a very resource intensive.

Speaker B: Right. No 100%. And then also too like now flipping to the most recent story that you just mentioned at the startup, right. And whether you're trying to. And again like you're trying at a startup you're trying to figure out what your ICP is. Right. You're trying to figure out what, who's your ideal customer. And, and you're going to, you're going to go through those challenges but at the same time if you continue, if you kind of Give an environment where sales is continuing to sell to someone who's completely opposite and you know who your ICP is. A similar problem happens. You're bringing in more resources, you're, you're having more quote unquote rescues or saves in which in turn in both scenarios it's would probably drive up your cost to serve and a lot of resources internally.

Speaker A: Yes it does. I think we should accept that a startup at a certain size, let's say the technology still matures or even if they grow very fast but you know, the nature of it is that we have to run very fast and bad things will happen. At least it needs to be well known um, across the company. Usually it's not a big company. So sales, cs, a pre sales ah, engineering product, it's not a huge deal. Right. So everybody needs to understand in which cases, in which type of customer it's going to be a more easier implementation. Right. A more easy ride. Maybe the onboarding will be easier, in which cases it's not. We learn together. The question is what happens in sales fields that the easiest sell is to the ones that uh, are uh, considered. Already I have come across that, that intentionally they bring their own customers because eventually they churn. So the next year will be bad and we don't want to have that. That's obviously if we align on business outcomes and growing the company. Growth comes from existing customers. You bring main majority of the customers as bad customers. We don't grow. Yeah. So I think eventually it's just a message that gradually is built. But you need the collaboration by the way, not just one by sales. You need a strong product team, uh to kind of direct everyone and help to shape it in a way that everybody understands how what's the best way to sell, what's the best way to onboard and to serve. Hopefully long term.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, 100% agree. Uh, I think that the key thing too that you called out which requires again this is why like everyone needs to be bought in. Like you said, product sales, post sales, even marketing. It's at the end of the day the majority of your revenue undoubtedly long term is going to come from your existing customers. And I think a lot of people tend to, especially when it comes to cs. Right. It's been this battle right of the under supportive team, you know, not getting the right resources at a lot of organizations. But at the same time that's where a good chunk of your revenue is going to come from, whether it's from the existing renewals, upsell and expansion. Um, so I think you bring up

Speaker A: a great point and I think that if those cases of churn happen, definitely in a startup, do your even a basic root cause analysis what went wrong? Right? Other the fact that you think it's not the right customer. Try to clarify, distill those reasons for everyone to understand. And then sometimes you say oh, the sales know about it. Well they don't because you just tell them it's the wrong icp, but they don't know much. Can you highlight your three points? Why it was a bad, a bad fit as I said. Could be that we don't have an owner at all. Somebody else bought it because they have a budget but they, they dropped it on a different team. The technology, they are, they are not. There are some, some early startups. They, they need the uh, customers that are willing to experiment. Right. They have some kind of a startup mindset on their own. Even if they are big. Right. Some other culture, organization cultures. Don't accept that. I have a lot of companies that work before they said we need off the shelf products, uh, five years in the market, minimum revenue. You need to show me a lot of things before I do business with you, that's fine. But there uh, are other customers that were much more willing to experiment. So all of that things, eventually, if they are being analyzed, even if on a high level, it's easier then to show to sales, you know, product or other things what the conclusions are. And I think that's on CS. Awesome.

Speaker B: No, 100% agree. Um, you know I, I think there's some good learnings here, um, that we've, we've taken away and I think um, you know, again it's a lot of it has to do with the alignment across all different teams, especially sales, um, collaborating with different functions. But I guess like if you had to kind of leave the audience with a couple other points, you know, as far as like the takeaways from your learnings here, what would they be?

Speaker A: Oh, uh, for customer success, there are so many uh, things that we can. First of all, I'm a true believer that we all, we continuously learn, right? We learn from all of those experiences. So good experiences, bad experiences. Have some, some reflection. Okay. We always ah, tell ourselves that, you know, we need to be aware, we have our soft skills, we know how to talk to customers, we ask the right questions hopefully. But if things don't go well to you, maybe they went very well. Have some, you know, reflection. Be honest with yourself. Think about what um, what went well for you and if it didn't why and if you don't have all the answers then ask for help. Right? Try to learn more. I mean the information is out there. Come on. We know that today. It's not difficult today to watch a movie, to watch a clip, to read an article, to go to an faq, to do a quick to a tour of some sort of a product. Uh, everything is out there and if it's not out there then ask your AI agent and probably will get someone. So I'm not sure if they're all accurate but you know, everything is there. So I would say learning, you know, have a learning mindset. Be, be curious, be, be honest with yourself and as, as, as you grow professionally remember that there's always something that you can learn from somebody else from a best practice. We don't hold everything in our head. So I think that's what I would leave the audience because those cases that I shared eventually prove to me that there is always one more question that you can ask. There is one more alignment that you can do. There is always something that you could at least think about. What else did I miss? Definitely on the churn story but also when we are doing post bottom for example on a customer that was not the right fit for sure.

Speaker B: No, I love it. I guess like on that note too uh, like I'm, I like to read a lot of books in terms of self help and there's tons of courses out there too. But I'm curious as far as like anything that you would recommend that you found to be helpful in your, in your career.

Speaker A: So I, I, I read few books in recent years that were not necessarily customer success. That's the other thing that I like to do. I like to read books from that help me or customer engagement but they are a bit different. I don't know if you call it psychology or organizational behavior. Uh, few wants to mention Atomic Habits by James Clear. So Atomic Habit is a great ah book to kind of teach you, you know what how to build your habits and that's on a professional level, that's on a personal level. Family, your hobbies. I mean this guy looks about it from a different perspective. No, I, it resonated very well with me because that's how I, I built myself. I'm a sport addict so I do my sports every day. So that, that is something that you have to build as a, as a you know as a small habit that you know gradually is built the same thing about different professional aspects. So definitely this one and it will definitely help any Professional. Um, the other one that I would recommend, it's a bit of an old book, but I'm not sure Build to last that speaks about some of the biggest companies in the previous century. It sounds like many years ago and why certain companies survived over 100 years and some others don't. So that's just a good book to read to get a different perspective of how things evolved since even this book was actually released. Another one is the startup of you by the LinkedIn founder. So you know, all of us today, this world, you know, we are doing our own marketing or own promotion. Right, of course. And myself as well. So you cannot live in a world that has so many channels and so many social networks and so many opportunities and not thinking about yourself as a startup. When I read this book, I said, oh my God, that's exactly what. And I read it about, I don't know, five, seven years back. That was very good. Last one that I would recommend. It's a bit funny book but it's called Surrounded by Idiots by Thomas Eon M. And uh, how to uh, it's called how to understand those who cannot be understood. And I don't know if you read the book about four colors, blue, red, green, yellow. And know he built it on top of other frameworks that exist and that uh, for me in customer service it helps. It's not like I'm coloring everyone now and say you're blue, you're green. But again, different perspectives, different learnings, different inputs. So you kind of helps you to better maybe fine tune the way that you want to analyze certain people. No misconceptions, but it, it is a very funny book, especially by the title. So then you say, oh, am I surrounded by idiots? No, we are not. But uh, you know, maybe we're sorted by people that we need to spread a bit more time and effort to actually understand what they need. Which is exactly what we need to do with our customers. Right.

Speaker B: 100%. No, I love it. I think I have not read the book. I've heard a lot of good things about it, so I'm definitely gonna have to check it out.

Speaker A: Um, he has other books after that, but start with this one.

Speaker B: Surrounded by Idiots. I love it. No, I think um, it's, it's important. Right? Because I think that's an important one and all, all good recommendations. I, I've read Built Last. It's definitely interesting. I almost want to read it back now. I read about, probably tweeted again. Yeah. 10, 12 years ago. I'm curious how things change. Concepts are still irrelevant. I mean like that's, it's a whole nother thing and it's, it's really interesting to see how things evolve. Um, but like going back to surrounded by idiot. I think it's important. Right? Because like at the end of the day we can get caught up in our own. Especially if we're working one to one with a customer. Our needs as opposed to the customer needs. The things like the unspoken objections like trying to understand and see their point of view. And I think like that's a good.

Speaker A: Everyone in the organization working for a big organization. So everyone. Basically I would keep my family aside because that's too much to analyze. But come on, I mean we all work with people. If it could be customers, partners, peers, colleagues, reports, management, you know, everybody needs to be understood eventually. I hope so.

Speaker B: 100%. No, definitely. I think, um, if we were to all tackle the analyzing of our family. Forget it. I think uh, we, that it's a whole nother job within itself. So

Speaker A: a different topic for a different m. Conversation.

Speaker B: Exactly. No, but these are great. Um, Guy, it's, it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast. Um, lots of, lots of great learnings I guess. Like where can everybody find you and learn more from you?

Speaker A: Oh, first of all, as we found each other on LinkedIn or in a success hacker webinars, but which we do find ourselves from time to time. LinkedIn for sure. I connect with a lot of people. I do my own consultancy. I have my own website, the CS cycle.com that has a lot of articles, playbooks, recordings as well. So I will definitely put your recording as well when that's live. Um, ah, and I write on LinkedIn. I have my own the CS Cycle newsletter on LinkedIn as well that I try to write every few weeks and provide some insights, bring my own, uh, you know, belief in how we should operate a CS professional as a CS executives. Yeah, that's, that's my passion and I'm trying to, to do that as much as possible in different, uh, let's say media channels.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. No, I love it and it's always great when you have that passion for it because then you kind of, you know, it's, it's fun. I think that's like the biggest takeaway.

Speaker A: Yeah, hopefully it will stay fun.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. We'll include those links in the description for the audience. That way they could get easy access to it. Uh, but again, thanks so much for coming on the podcast, Guy. Lots of, lots of great learnings and uh, look forward to chat with you soon.

Speaker A: Yes, thank you very much Joey.

Speaker B: It's been pleasure that's a wrap for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening. If you got some value from this conversation, hit subscribe, leave a rating or review and share it with someone who's also out there trying to build a better customer success or go to market strategy, even if it's messy along the way. And if you want more frameworks, tools, automated playbooks, check out jodastechtouch.com and subscribe to our newsletter. That link is in the description. Thanks so much for being here. Keep building, keep learning and I'll catch you on the next One quick note before we wrap. This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The ideas and opinions shared here are of my own or those of my guests and don't reflect the views of any current or former employers, clients or partners. We might reference tools, platforms or companies, but nothing shared here should be taken as fact, endorsement or criticism. Do your own research and always consult your team or legal counsel when making any business decisions. This content is not legal, financial or business advice. It's just us, uh, sharing what's worked, what hasn't, and how we've learned from both. So thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next time.