How To Win Over The C‑Suite and Turn Champions Into Heroes w/ Rachel Provan CEO of Provan Success

1 00:00:02,319 --> 00:00:04,879 SPEAKER_01: I was working at one of these startups and working my 2 00:00:04,879 --> 00:00:07,280 butt off, just really driving myself insane. 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,039 And I'd kept all the customers. 4 00:00:09,199 --> 00:00:10,960 They were all very satisfied. 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,720 And I was sensing an attitude from my boss. 6 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,879 I was asking for more headcount. 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,600 We're buried here, but he would he was just looking at me. 8 00:00:21,679 --> 00:00:24,160 He's like, I don't understand how you're so busy. 9 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:26,480 I don't even know what you do here. 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,320 SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Customer Unsuccess, the podcast where we 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,079 cut out the noise and talk with real leaders about their hardest 12 00:00:34,079 --> 00:00:37,280 lessons in customer success and other go-to-market motions. 13 00:00:37,439 --> 00:00:40,560 I'm your host, Joe DeGrande, and in each episode, we're going to 14 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,079 unpack real challenges from real leaders, fail tech 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,759 implementations, a strategy that didn't yield results or 16 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:48,880 difficult customers. 17 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:51,439 But more importantly, we're going to take those lessons 18 00:00:51,439 --> 00:00:54,159 learned and share them with you so that way you can avoid those 19 00:00:54,159 --> 00:00:55,840 same mistakes with your team. 20 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,719 So if you're in customer success, sales, or other 21 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:01,840 go-to-market motions, stick around to hear from the best. 22 00:01:02,159 --> 00:01:03,280 And let's dig into it. 23 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,400 In today's episode, I'm joined by Rachel Proven. 24 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,200 She's the founder and CEO of Proven Success. 25 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,400 And we dig into building CS from scratch, from winning over the 26 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,439 C-suite and the psychology that actually moves adoption. 27 00:01:15,599 --> 00:01:19,040 You'll leave with an outcomes first onboarding flow, how to 28 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,319 make champions the hero, and when to TF expansions. 29 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,159 Plus, we have a pretty wild story on how she botched an SEC 30 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:27,840 filing and still kept her job. 31 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,359 I really enjoyed this conversation. 32 00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:30,560 I hope you do too. 33 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:31,680 Now let's dive in. 34 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,400 But otherwise, should we kick this off? 35 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:35,519 SPEAKER_01: I'm ready. 36 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:36,319 SPEAKER_02: Awesome. 37 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,519 Well, Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the Customer on 38 00:01:39,519 --> 00:01:40,239 Success podcast. 39 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:41,200 Great to have you. 40 00:01:41,519 --> 00:01:42,319 SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure. 41 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:43,920 Thank you so much for having me. 42 00:01:44,239 --> 00:01:44,719 SPEAKER_02: Awesome. 43 00:01:44,879 --> 00:01:45,680 Well, good stuff. 44 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,200 So if you're not familiar with Rachel, she is the founder and 45 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,599 CEO of Provan Success. 46 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,640 And she's also has about, I think what was it, Rachel, about 47 00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:55,519 like 18 or 10 years? 48 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,120 SPEAKER_01: Embarrassingly, yes, 18 years. 49 00:01:57,439 --> 00:01:58,079 Don't age me. 50 00:01:58,239 --> 00:01:58,560 18. 51 00:01:58,719 --> 00:01:59,359 18. 52 00:01:59,599 --> 00:02:01,040 I'm an adult I can't drink. 53 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:01,599 There. 54 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:02,480 SPEAKER_02: That's it. 55 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:06,640 Well, I'm sure you've gathered a ton of wisdom during that time, 56 00:02:06,719 --> 00:02:07,280 regardless. 57 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:09,280 Um, which is again why we're always here. 58 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,400 Like, I'm always curious to hear, you know, anybody that's 59 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,560 been on the front lines and all the challenges, right? 60 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,319 Like, that's why we're here for customer owned success. 61 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,000 I think, you know, we've had, I don't even know by the time this 62 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,919 launches, what episode we're at. 63 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,759 We're definitely, we're obviously definitely in the 64 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:26,400 double digits, but I've we've gotten some great feedback from 65 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,039 the audience, and everyone's looking for more to just how to 66 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:31,439 avoid those mishaps in their career. 67 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,199 Um, and I know you've obviously had such a ton of experience, 68 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,520 and more specifically, we were talking recently, just kind of 69 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,680 just chatting about building a CS department from scratch. 70 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:39,919 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 71 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,240 SPEAKER_02: And I know that's like a huge undertaking, 72 00:02:42,319 --> 00:02:44,240 especially at like startups and things of that nature. 73 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:45,919 And it's like a lot to take on, right? 74 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,520 Also, you got to be scrappy. 75 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,719 So I'm curious as far as like were you when you were in that 76 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:53,039 position, like I guess tell me about that story and like kind 77 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:54,000 of how you approached it. 78 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,639 And I'm curious to learn, you know, learn more. 79 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,680 SPEAKER_01: I mean, in terms of building from scratch, I've done 80 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,120 that a number of times at a lot of different companies. 81 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,360 Um, you know, some that where I was like the seventh higher, and 82 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,400 some, you know, and it's just like a bunch of people who don't 83 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,080 really even know what CS is. 84 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,080 Um and I've done it at like Fortune 500 companies that are 85 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:17,599 like, we're gonna have CS now. 86 00:03:17,759 --> 00:03:18,639 We have two clients. 87 00:03:18,719 --> 00:03:19,919 And I'm like, Yep. 88 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:22,000 You you're a Fortune 500 company. 89 00:03:22,159 --> 00:03:23,599 How do you have two clients? 90 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,599 Um, but yeah. 91 00:03:25,759 --> 00:03:30,400 Uh so I've I've done it under many different conditions. 92 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,479 Um, I've also joined midstream, but I I more often have been a 93 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:35,120 builder. 94 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:40,479 Um and what I've really found is that most people don't really 95 00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:42,960 realize that it is built in stages. 96 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,080 You know, it's like because there's very little formal 97 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,159 education around customer success. 98 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:51,520 Um, I think there might be somewhere you can major in it at 99 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,639 this point, like at one college or something, but it's something 100 00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:58,479 you basically learn off the internet for most people, or 101 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:00,879 through and and or through trial and error. 102 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,199 Um and I I definitely did that, you know. 103 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,919 I mean, uh at this point I teach it, but there was nobody 104 00:04:07,919 --> 00:04:09,360 teaching it at that point. 105 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,599 And I was looking at, you know, what are the best practices? 106 00:04:14,319 --> 00:04:15,680 What exactly do I need? 107 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:18,720 And I didn't really realize that I was trying to build things 108 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,360 that were for much bigger companies, um, and having 109 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,839 trouble understanding, like, why aren't I getting the results? 110 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,480 And the the C-suite being like, why don't we have these results? 111 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,399 Why don't we have 125 NRR? 112 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:31,360 We're six months in. 113 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:33,120 And I was like, I know, I know. 114 00:04:33,439 --> 00:04:35,040 Terrible, terrible. 115 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,959 Um, it's like I had a spreadsheet and one CSM. 116 00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:41,360 Um, it's like I gee, I don't know. 117 00:04:41,519 --> 00:04:42,240 Uh I don't know. 118 00:04:42,399 --> 00:04:45,759 It couldn't, it couldn't possibly be that I'm completely 119 00:04:45,759 --> 00:04:46,720 in over my head. 120 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:51,120 Um but you know, because of that, there there was a lot of 121 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,279 time, the time where I didn't know what I was doing. 122 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:54,879 I was just doing the best I can. 123 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,000 And the the goal of CS has changed so many times since I 124 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:00,639 started. 125 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:05,600 Um, you know, from like white glove, consider us a member of 126 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,040 your team to like NPS, let's be happy. 127 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,439 Uh to, you know, outcomes. 128 00:05:11,519 --> 00:05:14,319 And outcomes has really been the thread the whole time. 129 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,040 But now to like, no, it's commercial and it always has 130 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:17,279 been. 131 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:18,639 It's like, okay, boss. 132 00:05:18,879 --> 00:05:24,079 Um it's, you know, and what's funny is we've picked up pieces 133 00:05:24,079 --> 00:05:26,480 that we have to handle the entire way along, but we never 134 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,000 get to put any of them down. 135 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:32,000 And um uh a lot of arms are getting heavy. 136 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,600 And something I heard from one of my coaching clients yesterday 137 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,040 was uh her boss wants her to build an AI agent to handle uh 138 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,839 to handle customer success. 139 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:45,040 unknown: Yeah. 140 00:05:45,199 --> 00:05:47,360 SPEAKER_02: It's like and build when it's like maybe that she 141 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:48,720 doesn't want technical. 142 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:49,040 Yeah. 143 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,079 SPEAKER_01: I was like, A, you want someone to build something 144 00:05:52,079 --> 00:05:53,439 to replace themselves. 145 00:05:53,759 --> 00:05:55,759 Yeah, no conflict of interest there. 146 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,839 Um, and B, you want them to do something that very, very few 147 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:00,399 people can do. 148 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,480 Like, I mean, you can create an agent, but the chances of it 149 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,680 being any good at all, like if you've tried building custom 150 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,480 GPT, like you're gonna have to massage the outputs. 151 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,879 And an agent assumes that like it's all perfect and it can talk 152 00:06:14,879 --> 00:06:19,600 to another custom GPT, and it's like if you're comfortable with 153 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:20,879 that, you have fun. 154 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,680 But uh, I don't think it's gonna work out the way you want it to. 155 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,959 Uh, but I see that, you know, being added to the plate, more 156 00:06:26,959 --> 00:06:28,639 and more things being added to the plate. 157 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:35,040 Um, but you know, something I do now is that I I teach new CS 158 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,720 leaders how to build and scale a CS department and how to lead a 159 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:39,040 team. 160 00:06:39,199 --> 00:06:41,040 Uh, very basic stuff. 161 00:06:41,199 --> 00:06:44,480 Um, and it's kind of how hard to advertise that I was like, no, 162 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,680 I'm gonna show you how to do your job because no one else 163 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:47,839 will. 164 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,959 And if if you don't know that, it's gonna be a problem. 165 00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:53,839 Um, but basically, yeah, that's it. 166 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:55,839 But how to how to do it and do it well. 167 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,720 And the story that I always like to tell is um, you know, I I was 168 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,079 working at one of these startups and I was working my butt off. 169 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:04,800 I was exhausted. 170 00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:07,120 I was like working till 10 every night because it was, you know, 171 00:07:07,199 --> 00:07:10,879 one of these like 10 people startups, and you know, wearing 172 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:14,079 all the hats, doing every, you know, checking every box to make 173 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:16,240 sure I wasn't losing anything. 174 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,759 And um and just really driving myself insane. 175 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,759 And I'd kept all the customers, they were all very satisfied. 176 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:28,480 They'd all, you know, I had their outcomes tracked and 177 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,759 everything on my Excel file. 178 00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:33,839 It wasn't even a Google sheet, no one could see it but me. 179 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:40,399 Um and you know, I was I was sensing an attitude from my 180 00:07:40,399 --> 00:07:40,879 boss. 181 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:47,040 Um, and I was like, I don't know, like he's German, so he 182 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,360 always seems kind of like not very la, you know, he's he's not 183 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:52,240 exactly jolly. 184 00:07:52,319 --> 00:07:54,399 He was very serious and straightforward, but I was like, 185 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,959 there's something, there's something else. 186 00:07:57,199 --> 00:08:05,759 Um and like I I was asking for I think more headcount. 187 00:08:06,079 --> 00:08:09,759 Um I was like, you know, we're we're just you know, we're 188 00:08:09,759 --> 00:08:10,800 buried here. 189 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,639 And you know, if you want to keep getting more clients, we're 190 00:08:14,639 --> 00:08:15,439 gonna need more headcount. 191 00:08:15,519 --> 00:08:17,600 Cause like we don't have a tool, you won't get me a tool. 192 00:08:17,839 --> 00:08:21,519 Um, and we probably didn't need one yet, honestly. 193 00:08:21,759 --> 00:08:25,439 Um one more person would have done it, but he he was just 194 00:08:25,439 --> 00:08:28,240 looking at me, he's like, I don't understand how you're so 195 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:28,639 busy. 196 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:33,039 He was like, I mean, I don't even know what you do here. 197 00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:35,200 unknown: Yeah. 198 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:36,559 SPEAKER_01: And that's rough. 199 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,759 I really think that so many CS leaders have that going on 200 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:45,600 without them knowing that that is what the C-suite is thinking 201 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:46,879 about them without saying it. 202 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,159 Because they're expecting one thing from CS, and it's probably 203 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:55,519 not very realistic based on how much they've enabled them in 204 00:08:55,519 --> 00:09:00,240 terms of time, tools, people, processes, clean data. 205 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,639 You know, they're expecting an ATM machine, and that's just not 206 00:09:04,639 --> 00:09:05,519 how CS works. 207 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,679 You know, it's I like to say it's uh it's the broccoli of the 208 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,759 business world, it's not sexy. 209 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,120 Uh, we're not the cookies, you know, but you you gotta eat your 210 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,000 broccoli, or you're not gonna be healthy. 211 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,240 You know, we're we're about long-term health. 212 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,639 And honestly, if you think about it, the SaaS model collapses 213 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:26,240 without customer success. 214 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,200 Of course, because they rely on retention, and retention is not 215 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:31,759 automatic. 216 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,639 And thank God boards are starting to actually recognize 217 00:09:34,639 --> 00:09:38,799 that because of course founders don't really. 218 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,120 And I can't blame them so much for that in terms of the 219 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:43,759 psychology. 220 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,960 You don't build something and think like, well, I built this, 221 00:09:47,039 --> 00:09:49,600 but nobody's ever gonna be able to get anything out of it, you 222 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:49,759 know. 223 00:09:49,919 --> 00:09:51,120 Like, no one's gonna think that. 224 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,759 They're gonna think like, well, I built the thing, they bought 225 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:56,240 it, we showed them how to use it, success. 226 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,519 And humans do not work like that. 227 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,320 You know, computers, computers work like that. 228 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:03,440 That's nice. 229 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,960 Um, but you know, I I like to give the analogy that I think 230 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,679 I've had five gym memberships and I've never had a six-pack, 231 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:11,840 and that is not the bulk of the gym. 232 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:18,399 You know, it's we it is really hard to motivate people to to 233 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:19,120 use something. 234 00:10:19,279 --> 00:10:22,559 We hate change, we hate new things, we hate having to learn, 235 00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:27,279 especially the more AI comes out, we are hating having to 236 00:10:27,279 --> 00:10:27,519 learn. 237 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:28,559 It's like, no, just do it for me. 238 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:29,279 I don't want to think. 239 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,080 You do it. 240 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,519 Um, yes. 241 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,600 My brain is rotting. 242 00:10:34,639 --> 00:10:37,200 SPEAKER_02: It's so, it's so interesting because I'm even 243 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,960 catching myself in certain things, right? 244 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,919 Where it's like, I'm always not always, I'm sometimes deferring 245 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:45,600 to AI to execute and stuff. 246 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:46,320 I'm like, you know what? 247 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:48,240 And then I'm running around in circles, like, oh, it's 248 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:48,960 hallucinating again. 249 00:10:49,039 --> 00:10:49,600 Oh, it's not working. 250 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:50,559 I'm like, all right, you know what? 251 00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:51,919 Why am I even going down this path? 252 00:10:52,159 --> 00:10:56,080 Maybe it would have just taken me 10 minutes less by just doing 253 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,919 it organically how I've always done. 254 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,679 And yeah, yeah, we're in a weird point of understanding like our 255 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,919 own minds and how it's interacting with AI. 256 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,080 SPEAKER_01: I mean, I heard um, you know, some reports about how 257 00:11:08,159 --> 00:11:11,039 like certain parts of our brain are atrophying, and I was like, 258 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,840 I'm not, I'm honestly not that concerned because all it shows 259 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,919 is that our brains are incredibly adaptive. 260 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,440 Um, you know, it's not going to keep building the same 261 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,080 neuropathways if they're not active anymore and you're using 262 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:22,799 different ones. 263 00:11:23,039 --> 00:11:27,679 Um, so that stresses me out less, but it is more about you 264 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,480 know, reminding myself to keep that human connection. 265 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:36,240 Um and it's funny because it's this balance of like, that is a 266 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:37,919 stupid thing, and I would love to outsource it. 267 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,639 But at the same time, it's like, are you really going to an AI 268 00:11:40,639 --> 00:11:43,360 model to write an introductory email? 269 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,519 Hi, this person, meet this person. 270 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,919 You really can't do that yourself anymore, honey. 271 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:48,799 Like, true. 272 00:11:49,039 --> 00:11:54,000 No, you need to do this yourself just to like not turn into uh 273 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,600 one of those creatures in WALL-E. 274 00:11:55,919 --> 00:12:01,679 Um but that is, you know, to circle it back to CS, that's why 275 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,080 I think we're becoming going to become more and more valuable as 276 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,200 the non-human parts of it, as the process parts of it become 277 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:11,840 automated. 278 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,000 Um, that's actually a treat for us. 279 00:12:14,159 --> 00:12:16,399 I mean, do you want to sit there and update the CRM? 280 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:17,120 Because I don't. 281 00:12:17,519 --> 00:12:17,679 unknown: No. 282 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:18,559 SPEAKER_02: Nobody does. 283 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:20,559 SPEAKER_01: And that's why we have these data problems. 284 00:12:20,879 --> 00:12:25,759 Um, but it's the stupid stuff, the boring stuff like that, that 285 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,320 this is here to handle for us. 286 00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:35,679 And while AI is really good um at so many things, it really 287 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:42,000 can't um, it really can't catch microexpressions, it can't catch 288 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,879 tone, it can't catch all these things that we were 289 00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:48,240 evolutionarily engineered for, you know? 290 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:48,799 Right. 291 00:12:49,039 --> 00:12:52,799 Um but and because we don't fully understand how the brain 292 00:12:52,799 --> 00:12:54,480 works, we can't tell it how to do that. 293 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,399 And I think that's actually a good thing. 294 00:12:56,639 --> 00:13:00,720 Um we we don't want it to have the full the full software. 295 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,679 Um but yeah, that was that was a big circular conversation that 296 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:06,799 touched on a lot. 297 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:07,919 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure. 298 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:08,879 No, I love it though. 299 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,480 I and I and I took some notes as well. 300 00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:12,320 And like there's a couple I go. 301 00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:12,559 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 302 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:13,679 SPEAKER_02: No, this is great. 303 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:16,320 I think um it's interesting because we we touched on a 304 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:17,039 couple of things. 305 00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:20,720 Um one, uh you brought up you brought up the C-suite. 306 00:13:20,799 --> 00:13:23,039 I do want to get back to the psych piece too, because it's 307 00:13:23,039 --> 00:13:23,919 super, super interesting. 308 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,039 Because I know you've even said yourself you're you're you uh 309 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,360 you're self-proclaimed psych nerd, which is great. 310 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,279 And it's interesting because it's very important when it 311 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:34,240 comes to like consumer behavior, you know, for adopting you know 312 00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:34,960 SaaS. 313 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,120 But like going back to C-suite, like in the story, I guess like 314 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,320 a lot of times I talk to people like you know, other CS leaders, 315 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,919 just you know, CSMs, like what are some tips in terms of like 316 00:13:45,919 --> 00:13:47,600 communicating with the C-suite, right? 317 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,840 Like in your story, like damn in that particular story, they 318 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,240 didn't know what you did in that particular situation, right? 319 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,279 So I guess like how do you combat that or better not so 320 00:13:57,279 --> 00:13:59,919 much combat it, but like maybe better prepare yourself for next 321 00:13:59,919 --> 00:14:00,240 time, right? 322 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:01,360 And like how do you communicate? 323 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:02,799 Like, tell me more about that. 324 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,519 SPEAKER_01: I mean, the funny thing about that is, you know, I 325 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:09,039 was very righteous and indignant for you know, about 13 hours, 326 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,440 and I had all these wonderful comebacks in the shower that of 327 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,120 course are useless at that point. 328 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:18,639 Um talking myself and uh and then it hit me that like of 329 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:21,200 course he doesn't know what I do here. 330 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:22,799 I never told him. 331 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,519 And he's like a tech guy, you know, like he knows he was 332 00:14:27,519 --> 00:14:29,679 basically been a CTO before. 333 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,360 Um it's like I'd never bothered to be like, here's what we do, 334 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,840 here's how it works, here's what you can expect. 335 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,600 Um, because I assumed that because he was a C-suite, he 336 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,000 knew, you know, that he knew more than me. 337 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,600 And he didn't. 338 00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:47,279 Um, and that doesn't mean that he was bad at his job, you know. 339 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,399 Not everyone can know what every department does. 340 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:55,120 Like as you grow and as you scale, the more you have to have 341 00:14:55,279 --> 00:14:57,759 people who specialize in that and be like, here, this is for 342 00:14:57,759 --> 00:14:57,919 you. 343 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,600 You get to handle this now. 344 00:14:59,919 --> 00:15:04,240 So, you know, for the C-suite, and this is something I I teach 345 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,000 about a lot, um, that you really have to under be able to 346 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,840 understand anyone's perspective. 347 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,559 And it's a lot simpler than it sounds. 348 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,399 It's just like, who is this person? 349 00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:15,840 How do they keep their job? 350 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,840 How does this person keep their job? 351 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,679 Because if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which you 352 00:15:21,679 --> 00:15:24,480 only have to be the minorist psych nerd to know about this, 353 00:15:24,559 --> 00:15:28,000 but it's basically like a hierarchy of needs. 354 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,039 It starts with the bottom. 355 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:30,000 Like, what do we need? 356 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,120 Well, air. 357 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:35,200 If we don't have air, that's the biggest problem, right? 358 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:35,679 SPEAKER_00: Right. 359 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,240 SPEAKER_01: Um, then probably water, then food, then shelter. 360 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,519 Um, you know, then we'd like to have some friends. 361 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:47,759 Uh and then we'd like to, you know, move on, you know, we'd 362 00:15:47,759 --> 00:15:49,759 like to have some friends, we'd like to have some love, we'd 363 00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:53,679 like to um self-actualize is at the top, you know, things like 364 00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:56,240 spirituality and you know, becoming the best version of 365 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:56,559 yourself. 366 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,879 How can you impact uh society for a positive way? 367 00:16:01,039 --> 00:16:05,840 Um, but moving up that chain is really what our body is designed 368 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,440 to do, our body and brain. 369 00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:10,960 And it's not really gonna let you deviate from that. 370 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,240 Uh, there's a reason we've been alive so long and have evolved 371 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,799 this long, and it's because your brain is protecting you. 372 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:24,320 Uh and it has learned that your job is kind of on that base 373 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,600 layer because that affects your food, your shelter, your family. 374 00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:28,159 Right? 375 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,759 That's how you get your food and shelter. 376 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,360 That's how you get it for your family as well. 377 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,440 So it equates your job with basic survival. 378 00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:41,440 Um and that causes a lot of problems because there are more 379 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,399 than one job. 380 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:46,240 And just because you have a minor issue, like there's a few 381 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,759 typos in your report, that's not the same thing as a lion chasing 382 00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:50,000 you. 383 00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:53,840 But to your brain and the chemicals it releases, it's the 384 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:54,399 same thing. 385 00:16:54,559 --> 00:16:57,600 Your life is now in danger, gotta act now. 386 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,120 All the blood flows to, you know, to your hands, your legs, 387 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,600 it leaves your brain, making you actively stupider. 388 00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:08,480 Um, and you are not in a great position to fix your problems, 389 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,240 think logically, think like, oh, here's how I should solve this 390 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:12,559 problem. 391 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,200 You're more likely going to spiral. 392 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,119 Like, this is the end of the world, here's what's gonna 393 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:19,359 happen. 394 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:20,400 I'm predicting the future. 395 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,359 I know everything that is going to happen, and it's all bad. 396 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:23,839 Okay. 397 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,920 So that's everyone. 398 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,160 So, what's gonna make that happen for a person in the 399 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:30,720 C-suite? 400 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,240 Who do they report to? 401 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,519 They report to the board. 402 00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:34,559 What does the board care about? 403 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,160 Money, numbers. 404 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:36,480 SPEAKER_00: Right. 405 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,359 SPEAKER_01: That's why, that's why our bosses care about it 406 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:40,799 because that's how they get paid. 407 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:46,079 Um so looking at that, it's like, all right, well, then 408 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,240 whatever I show them, I should probably start with that. 409 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,759 So literally anyone you are going to meet with, whether it's 410 00:17:53,759 --> 00:17:56,720 a client, whether it is the C-suite, whether it's a member 411 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,440 of your CS team, whether it is your mother-in-law, um, you need 412 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,759 to ask yourself if the person is gonna look at you with what 413 00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:09,920 you've come at and just imagine them saying, like, why should I 414 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:10,160 care? 415 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:11,839 What's in it for me? 416 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:12,480 SPEAKER_00: Right. 417 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,920 SPEAKER_01: And it's not that everyone's innately selfish. 418 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,839 It's just that's what they're paying attention to. 419 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,640 That's what they're laser focused on. 420 00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:24,000 So if you can show them what is in it for them and why they 421 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,720 should care, you're gonna have a much better conversation. 422 00:18:27,039 --> 00:18:31,119 Because if you lead with what you care about, they're not 423 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,119 thinking about that and they don't really care. 424 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:36,799 You know, do you care about what marketing wants and needs? 425 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,880 Like, probably not unless they're messing you up. 426 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,680 You know, it's like wish you well, but you know, I got stuff 427 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:42,000 to do. 428 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,039 And that's how other departments feel about us. 429 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,440 Um, like, you're really screwing me up here. 430 00:18:47,519 --> 00:18:48,799 It's like, I'm sorry. 431 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,720 I cannot help you, like I cannot help that. 432 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:54,160 I've got my job to do. 433 00:18:54,400 --> 00:19:00,640 Um, so instead of leading with, you know, like if we don't have, 434 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,640 you know, two more hires, we're not gonna be able to handle our 435 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,440 book of business, you know, people might leave. 436 00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:11,039 Uh and like, yeah, while that sounds bad, you know, and people 437 00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:12,559 are gonna be sympathetic to that. 438 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,039 That's very different than, you know, I would estimate uh we're 439 00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:19,599 not gonna be able to handle at our current capacity and our 440 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:21,680 current rate of growth, that we're not going to be able to 441 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,359 handle this uh this volume after October. 442 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,640 And while we might be okay for a little while, there will be 443 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,640 irreversible churn that will happen six months later, but it 444 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,799 will be because of what we start doing in October. 445 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,519 So you're gonna end up, if we don't do something by October, 446 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:42,720 we're gonna end up with, you know, an additional uh, it 447 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,440 depends on your company,$750,000 a churn. 448 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:47,920 You know, just give it a number, give it a percentage. 449 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:51,680 You, and I cannot emphasize this enough you do not have to be 450 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,200 100% sure of the number. 451 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,519 You can be 60% sure of the number, and that is fine because 452 00:19:57,519 --> 00:19:59,200 there's no way for anyone to verify it. 453 00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:02,640 People just want A general idea of what's going on. 454 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:06,079 I'm not saying to make it up, but it's like generally when 455 00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:08,480 people are making these decisions and estimates, it's 456 00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:12,240 they say if you have an idea between 40 and 70 percent, make 457 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:12,720 the call. 458 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,960 Because if you wait for a hundred, the call's gonna be 459 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:15,680 made for you. 460 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,039 So what does this person care about? 461 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:19,680 Numbers. 462 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:20,799 So what did I do? 463 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,640 I went in, I led with the numbers. 464 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:23,920 That's what's in it for you. 465 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,200 You're gonna get hurt here. 466 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,119 And I didn't say, like, oh, if you hire more people, it's going 467 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:35,200 to um boost retention, it's going to boost expansion. 468 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,400 I didn't say that because loss is much more powerful than gain 469 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:41,279 to our brain. 470 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:44,400 We, you know, we all like the sound of gaining something, but 471 00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:48,240 oh, you're gonna lose something that you're already counting on. 472 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:50,559 There's nothing the brain hates more. 473 00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:53,759 And that is something that we can use in customer success, 474 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,079 especially to our existing clients. 475 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,839 It's like, you know, it's like, okay, I I understand, you know, 476 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:01,359 but do you realize what you'll be losing here? 477 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,000 All this time that you've invested, um, you know, and all, 478 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,079 you know, all these records, all, you know, helping them 479 00:21:10,079 --> 00:21:11,680 understand what they're gonna lose access to. 480 00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:16,000 It's like, well, what how do you plan on um doing this without 481 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:16,960 without our product? 482 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:18,319 Are you gonna do it manually? 483 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,319 Okay, what will you not be able to do because you're doing that? 484 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,240 What are you taking off your plate? 485 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:25,680 You know, yeah. 486 00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:26,559 Interesting. 487 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,119 It it brings in the oh shoot, you know. 488 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,279 Now I don't care if they're never using your product. 489 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,839 Saying that is going to make the thing like, I don't have time, 490 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,119 what the hell am I gonna do? 491 00:21:35,279 --> 00:21:36,000 Um true. 492 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,920 I do care if they're never using your product. 493 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:43,119 Obviously, I'm in CS, but um these are the ways that you can 494 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,920 use how the brain works to help you in CS because I'm gonna tell 495 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,119 you the way the brain works is really not friendly to CS from 496 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,400 the executive level. 497 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,559 Um, it's something called hyperbolic discounting, which 498 00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:00,319 basically means the longer out the reward is, the less I care. 499 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,240 The less I believe it exists. 500 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,519 It only matters if it's gonna happen now. 501 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,599 The further we get away from it, the less, you know, it could be 502 00:22:09,599 --> 00:22:11,839 a million dollars, but you tell me it's two years out, it's 503 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:12,960 like, yeah, right. 504 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:14,400 Okay, we'll see. 505 00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:16,319 You know, it's like I'm gonna give you a million dollars 506 00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:16,640 tomorrow. 507 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:17,359 Now we're talking. 508 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:18,400 Yes, let's go. 509 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,359 You know, but I don't believe you if you say it's in two 510 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,400 years, even though a computer would be like, great, we're 511 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,440 getting two million dollars. 512 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:26,240 This is awesome. 513 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,279 You know, it would understand a number is a number. 514 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,480 And, you know, we didn't know we were getting it anyway. 515 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:35,039 We knew, you know, we plan to live the next two years of our 516 00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:35,920 life without it anyway. 517 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:36,640 Who cares? 518 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,039 But it's all the stories we tell ourselves that I don't trust 519 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:41,200 people. 520 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,319 This is what people do. 521 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,640 You know, he could be hit by a bus tomorrow. 522 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:47,200 Um, but none of it is based in fact. 523 00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:51,200 So you may say, like, well, what does that have to do with CS? 524 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,359 If you're saying you got to pay all these people, they're gonna 525 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,400 be talking to your clients, and all that's gonna happen is that 526 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,799 they're gonna keep using your product, which you think is 527 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:03,920 gonna happen anyway, that's a tough sell. 528 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,559 And and to be like, uh, you know, and now they're like, oh, 529 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,720 you should be upselling, that's what you're here for. 530 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,279 And it's like, no, it's not. 531 00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:18,160 Um, it's like that can be a result, you know, it's like once 532 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:21,359 once they've reached their goals with your product, once they got 533 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,160 what they came for, I take all the jargon out of it, once they 534 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,559 got what they came for and you've proven that you do what 535 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:30,799 you say and that they're getting value out of it. 536 00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:35,599 Then when you say, Okay, because I know you, I know the value 537 00:23:35,599 --> 00:23:37,599 you've gotten out of this, I know what your business does, 538 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:41,279 other people like you, then move on to this because it gives them 539 00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:44,640 this other value, and here's what it does for them. 540 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,039 So that's where upsells can become easier. 541 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,640 But you can't just go in and be like, hi, want to buy more? 542 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,240 It's like, no. 543 00:23:57,839 --> 00:24:00,480 And most CSMs don't even want to do that because they got into 544 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,720 this because they did not want to be in sales. 545 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:03,680 SPEAKER_02: True. 546 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,480 SPEAKER_01: Sales is easier, there's more glory, but you have 547 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,880 to be okay with doing sales and enjoy doing sales, and I'm fine 548 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,920 with it, honestly. 549 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,559 Um, I've had to become fine with it, but I would much rather um 550 00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:22,720 be out there helping people than trying to sell them on 551 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:23,279 something. 552 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:26,400 What I've had to do is understand the way that what I'm 553 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,160 selling them is going to help them. 554 00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:32,640 And that by if I don't get them to understand that, I'm doing 555 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,960 them a disservice because I am leaving them to get hurt in some 556 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,200 way. 557 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,920 But you really have to believe in your product for that. 558 00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:40,799 SPEAKER_02: 100%. 559 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,839 Yeah, if you don't believe in your product, you're it's hard 560 00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:44,160 to sell. 561 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,759 And it goes back to it's and this is interesting because it's 562 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:51,279 funny um when you mention about like CS wants to go to CS 563 00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:54,559 because they don't want to sell, and then arguably salespeople, 564 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,680 yes, you have to deal with a lot of rejection, you know, and that 565 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,240 uncertainty, but at the end of the day, they don't have to keep 566 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:01,279 a relationship post-sale. 567 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,839 That's it, it's done, you know, in most cases, unless they're 568 00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:04,480 full cycle. 569 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,400 But um, it and it's it's a common misconception, in my 570 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,359 opinion, because you said it yourself, you do need to sell 571 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:12,319 the value, right? 572 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,759 Like sell them and train it. 573 00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:14,960 Like, how is it going to help them? 574 00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:16,000 And that's an element of selling. 575 00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:18,160 It also goes back to the element of psychology as well. 576 00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:19,759 Oh, yeah, which is also interesting. 577 00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:22,400 And you brought up about actually tap into that a little 578 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,599 bit more because you're talking about like essentially you 579 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:29,279 going, and this is back to the C-suite example about like, hey, 580 00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:31,680 focusing on the negative in a lot of cases, like, what are 581 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,319 they missing out on? 582 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,599 And I think like that, I forget the exact comment, uh um um 583 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:39,359 what's the word I'm looking for? 584 00:25:39,519 --> 00:25:40,480 Um, concept. 585 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:40,960 Sorry. 586 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:42,160 SPEAKER_01: Loss aversion. 587 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,079 SPEAKER_02: Loss aversion, exactly. 588 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,519 And it's like, okay, like how our brains work now you could 589 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:48,400 apply that to CS. 590 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,440 I'm curious, like, where have you seen that be successful from 591 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:52,960 like an adoption or onboarding perspective? 592 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,680 I have I've seen some examples as well where I'll say, like, 593 00:25:55,839 --> 00:25:57,759 hey, here's we're to companies where it's like, here's what 594 00:25:57,759 --> 00:26:00,480 your competitors are doing or using, and and that's picked up 595 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,000 like, oh my god, I'm missing out on. 596 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,240 I can't keep keep up to date on what you know you name your ABC 597 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,279 company that I'm competing with. 598 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,519 But like I'm curious from your perspective, like how that's 599 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:12,240 been successful using the you know, that concept. 600 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,559 SPEAKER_01: Uh they're very different. 601 00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:17,680 Um, whether you're doing the concepts are very different, 602 00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:20,480 whether you're doing onboarding or retention. 603 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,759 Um, for onboarding, you don't really use loss aversion much in 604 00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:26,319 onboarding. 605 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,000 Onboarding is more about dopamine, um, which is the happy 606 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,160 hormone that you get when you play with your phone and why you 607 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,119 can't put it down. 608 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,240 Um it's and dopamine is not about receiving something 609 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,400 pleasurable, it's about the anticipation of knowing you're 610 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,039 about to. 611 00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:45,039 That's what dopamine is. 612 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:48,480 Um, so it's actually the anticipation of the payoff that 613 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:49,119 you're addicted to. 614 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,920 That's why people get addicted to gambling and things like 615 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,799 that, because it's like, and that's why variable rewards work 616 00:26:54,799 --> 00:26:55,839 so well on us. 617 00:26:56,079 --> 00:27:00,480 Um you'd think it would be the reward, but no, it's like the I 618 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:01,839 don't know, it's exciting. 619 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,599 I think it's gonna be it. 620 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,839 Uh so just the way the way hormones combine and the the way 621 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:09,039 they affect our brain. 622 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,000 So that's something you can leverage because like we don't 623 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,640 want to be going in negative when we're just meeting people. 624 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,519 Um, it's like when you're gonna leave me, I'm gonna go negative. 625 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,559 Um, but when you're just meeting people and you want to get them 626 00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:23,200 on board, that's what we're doing, onboarding, not 627 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,799 checklisting, right? 628 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:25,359 SPEAKER_00: Right. 629 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:28,079 SPEAKER_01: They are not on board until they've achieved an 630 00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:28,960 initial value. 631 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,920 Doesn't have to be the whole thing, but they have to be like, 632 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,200 oh, I see how this is gonna work and get me what I came for. 633 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:36,640 Okay, all right. 634 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,319 Show me what you gotta show me. 635 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:39,119 I'm in. 636 00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:43,839 Um, like now I'll do the work that is required on my end to 637 00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:44,799 get what I came for. 638 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,039 Now I will go to the goddamn gym. 639 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:55,039 Um so, and the way that you do that is um actually by the 640 00:27:55,039 --> 00:27:58,400 science of uh, you know, we get a lot of science of how you 641 00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,519 implement habits. 642 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:05,359 So that is making it tiny, bite-sized, easy. 643 00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:08,880 People have to associate this with like it's so easy and it's 644 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,240 a quick win, right? 645 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,119 That's gonna harness that dopamine, right? 646 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,759 It's like, oh, because you know what, we don't get enough gold 647 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:16,640 stars in our life. 648 00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:19,440 And I don't know about you, but like I would like a little 649 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,160 credit, you know. 650 00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:21,759 I brushed my teeth this morning. 651 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,200 I didn't have to do that. 652 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:23,680 No. 653 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,359 Um, but but it's more just like, you know, a lot of us, 654 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,240 especially as adults, we're doing a lot of things for other 655 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,319 people that gets no recognition. 656 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,440 And if we disappeared, it would be felt. 657 00:28:35,599 --> 00:28:39,680 Um, and we know it's kind of like, yeah, you tacitly agreed 658 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,680 to this um because it's your job, because you had kids, 659 00:28:43,759 --> 00:28:44,960 because you this, that. 660 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,960 Um, that doesn't mean that it doesn't feel really good to be 661 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:49,599 acknowledged. 662 00:28:49,759 --> 00:28:51,359 And we're starved for it. 663 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,319 So when we tell a customer, like, all you have to do, don't 664 00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:59,279 worry about anything else, go in there, push this button, and 665 00:28:59,279 --> 00:28:59,839 here's why. 666 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,640 Here's the benefit that you're gonna get long term from it. 667 00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:05,359 You know, you have to tie it to a reason, not just like push the 668 00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:06,240 button dummy. 669 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:07,119 Um, right. 670 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:11,119 But like that's gonna start the process of doing this without 671 00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:12,480 your ever having to touch it. 672 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:13,279 You know? 673 00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:15,359 So now it's I've got a reason. 674 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:18,079 I go in, they go push the button. 675 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,160 You do something that acknowledges what they did and 676 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,799 and makes them feel special and like they've accomplished 677 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:27,279 something. 678 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:29,920 And it doesn't have to be a huge thing. 679 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:32,960 It you'll see sometimes like little star animations, little 680 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,079 confetti, whatever, that triggers dopamine. 681 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,079 That's like, oh, something good happened. 682 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:39,599 I did something good. 683 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,680 And they're associating that with the action they just took. 684 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,440 So you want to anchor a positive emotion. 685 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,319 Tiny steps, stupid easy, positive emotion. 686 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,720 That's sort of the the perfect formula. 687 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,839 Um, you know, a friend was trying to teach me to make 688 00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:58,960 dinner every night and uh, you know, because I can cook like 689 00:29:58,960 --> 00:29:59,279 crazy. 690 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,880 It's I don't want to. 691 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,119 And she's like, all you have to do, she's like, you have to come 692 00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:08,240 home, take the knife out of the knife block, put it down, and 693 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,759 smile and go, yeah. 694 00:30:09,839 --> 00:30:12,480 Uh, and like pump your fist and do like a big smile. 695 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,200 And I was like, I'm gonna look like a crazy person. 696 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:18,000 And she's like, you are a crazy person, go do it. 697 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,079 Uh and I did, and it really did for a long time lead me to to 698 00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:24,640 cook every night until it became impractical for my life. 699 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:25,680 But like that was the step. 700 00:30:25,759 --> 00:30:28,559 It wasn't like go get a chicken, defrost it, cut it up, you know, 701 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,079 preheat the oven, do the like I don't wanna know. 702 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,519 But like if I get a win from taking a knife out of a block, 703 00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:38,640 you know, and my brain sees it as like, yeah, you did it, you 704 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,799 accomplished all you had to do for this today. 705 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:41,920 You win. 706 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,400 So there are ways to do this with software, you know, and and 707 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,680 little animations like that. 708 00:30:47,759 --> 00:30:50,640 You know, you can also send an email that's just like, way to 709 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,759 go, you achieve step one, or like you've hit level one. 710 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,000 That's why there's all that gamification. 711 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,039 Um, yes. 712 00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:00,559 I don't love to rely on that because it requires your product 713 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:04,559 and engineers to to build it and they don't wanna. 714 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,160 Um but you know, there are plugins, there are all sorts of 715 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,160 things, but even just like a little email that sends like a 716 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,480 poof of confetti, it's like you've hit level one. 717 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,119 Um and you did it, and congratulations, you know, now 718 00:31:17,119 --> 00:31:20,559 you're this close to the next level, all you have to do. 719 00:31:20,799 --> 00:31:23,839 So gamifying, building that anticipation. 720 00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:28,079 Um and again, just always tying it back to here's why you're 721 00:31:28,079 --> 00:31:29,119 gonna do this next thing. 722 00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:32,079 Here's how it has to do with everything, because that's 723 00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:33,680 respect, you know? 724 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,279 Whether you're asking someone who works for you or you're 725 00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:40,480 asking a client, you got to tell them why. 726 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,759 Because if you don't, it's just like no, you do it. 727 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,920 I don't want to see the point, you know. 728 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,960 There are constantly like I I tend to say like 27 things on 729 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,880 someone's to-do list for today. 730 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:53,519 Today. 731 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:54,559 SPEAKER_02: Of course. 732 00:31:55,359 --> 00:31:57,680 SPEAKER_01: And if you're not at the top, you're at the bottom. 733 00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:02,400 Because that's the 27 things they plan for, not the stuff 734 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,680 that's coming in the door that they now have to handle, right? 735 00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:10,400 So you have to be so tied to their survival at their job. 736 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:12,799 This is a another big tip tip that I teach. 737 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,359 It's it's not how can I get them to get the business value out of 738 00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:18,240 their software? 739 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,960 How can I get this person that I am talking to right here that 740 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:21,839 I've got to get on board? 741 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,200 How can I get them promoted? 742 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:24,720 SPEAKER_02: Exactly. 743 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:25,119 Right? 744 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:25,839 So true. 745 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:26,160 Yeah. 746 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,319 SPEAKER_01: How do you make them look like the hero? 747 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:28,720 Yeah. 748 00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:30,480 How do I make you look good to your boss? 749 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,319 That is my goal here, you know. 750 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,799 So your boss has asked you to do this, why? 751 00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:36,319 What is it going to show them? 752 00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:39,119 And if they're like, I don't know, my boss doesn't tell me 753 00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:39,680 these things. 754 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,240 Well, um, generally, most companies are trying to do one 755 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,400 of four things at all times. 756 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,519 Um and they're, you know, mostly related to having more money 757 00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:55,680 than they did before, but it's uh make money, save money, 758 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,720 increase productivity, which means they're spending less 759 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,200 money on people, uh, or increase security. 760 00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:05,119 And that's just like because security breaches are expensive. 761 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:06,160 Um yeah. 762 00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:07,680 That is a limited bucket. 763 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:09,440 We handle that a little bit differently. 764 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,039 Really cool psychological levers to pull there, but for most of 765 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:15,039 the people, it's the revenue, the productivity. 766 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:19,519 Um so you want to show them all right, this is how much 767 00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:22,559 productivity you are going to save with this. 768 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,240 If you do what I'm saying, you're gonna implement this and 769 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,359 you are going to be responsible for this much productivity. 770 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,160 Now wait, tie it to the salaries of the people who perform this. 771 00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:36,799 How often do they perform this task? 772 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,559 How many of them are there? 773 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,359 You know, and do that math equation. 774 00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:43,279 And I suck at math and I could do this. 775 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,960 Do that math equation. 776 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:50,480 And all of a sudden you're able to say, I implemented X software 777 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:56,480 and saved us, you know,$250,000 in lost productivity or in 778 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,759 person hours. 779 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,559 Um, it decreased our margins by X percent, um, you know, or 780 00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:05,039 increased our profit margins by X percent. 781 00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:10,239 Uh so again, using the language that they care about, right? 782 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,000 Because even if your boss is not in the C-suite, they very well 783 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:14,719 may not be. 784 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,119 But if they say those words to their boss, they're still gonna 785 00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:19,679 be like, it's gonna sound good if I say that and say my team 786 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:20,159 did it. 787 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:21,920 Um yeah, of course. 788 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,800 You know, so when you're when you're socializing that up, be 789 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,719 like, this is what this did for our team. 790 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,239 Like, and you can go ahead and like run that up the chain and 791 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,920 be like, our department did this. 792 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:35,360 You know, don't don't be afraid to give like to give some of the 793 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,159 credit away. 794 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,320 But this is how you get promoted. 795 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,519 This is how you get seen as like, oh, they're strategic. 796 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:43,039 Look at what they did for me. 797 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,719 Um, that's how you show that you are a strategic part of the 798 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,840 business, not somebody who implements a software, but 799 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,280 somebody who is really thinking about the big picture. 800 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:54,320 SPEAKER_02: 100%. 801 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,079 Yeah, and I think it's I think the key thing here, and I see 802 00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:00,880 this happen a lot of times when you know, especially like when 803 00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:05,599 CSMs are, you know, developing EBRs or QBRs, whatever we're 804 00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:08,159 calling it nowadays, but like they're just focused on usage. 805 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:13,199 And it's just it's like how what is your actual yeah, what's your 806 00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:14,239 impact for the business? 807 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,679 I remember during my even my times, uh, I used to be at a 808 00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:21,440 research company, uh, eMarketer, and and again, it's you had to 809 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,039 do a lot of qualitative fact finding in order to it's like, 810 00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:27,599 yeah, you could show that, like, hey, making sure that people are 811 00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:29,039 using it, that's fine and dandy. 812 00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:31,280 But at the end of the day, there are some companies that have a 813 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,239 couple of seats and they're using it just for one quarterly 814 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:34,800 report. 815 00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:37,760 What mattered in that report that helped their business? 816 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,599 And that's get telling that story. 817 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:40,960 A hundred percent. 818 00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:41,519 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 819 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,239 And that would be a really crummy EBR if you were just 820 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,000 like, you pulled one report. 821 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:46,559 SPEAKER_02: Yep. 822 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:47,360 SPEAKER_01: Yay! 823 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:50,559 SPEAKER_02: Exactly. 824 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,079 And then on the flip side, too, it's like, uh, oh, well, that 825 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,039 that company gets that value out of that report, and then you're 826 00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:00,480 thinking, oh wow, they're incredibly unhealthy because you 827 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,320 know, for whatever reason that they don't seem like they're 828 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:02,559 using that. 829 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:03,760 SPEAKER_01: By your standards. 830 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,760 Like, and this is something I see all the time. 831 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,159 It's like, well, we have to make sure they're using all of the 832 00:36:08,159 --> 00:36:08,400 product. 833 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,599 It's like, no, you don't. 834 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:10,719 What are they trying to do? 835 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,599 Are they using the product in the way that they're, you know, 836 00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:14,960 that's gonna get them that? 837 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:16,079 Start with that. 838 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:17,840 Don't try and have them use the whole thing. 839 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,199 You're gonna overwhelm them. 840 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,960 Don't give me a personal trainer on the first day who's going to 841 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,800 make me exercise till I throw up. 842 00:36:25,119 --> 00:36:30,320 Tell him to make me do, you know, one to lift one pound one 843 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,719 time and tell me I'm a rock star and I'm coming back tomorrow. 844 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,519 Um, but you know, you see how that works? 845 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:39,519 It's like you don't need the whole thing at once. 846 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,880 You can add that over time, but throwing everything at someone, 847 00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:47,599 we think it's like, look how cool, look at all the stuff you 848 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:47,920 could do. 849 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,199 You never have to leave this. 850 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,280 And it's like, I have other programs. 851 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,239 I'm already doing this. 852 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:53,840 I am not migrating over. 853 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,719 Um it's like, can you do can you just show me what to do? 854 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:57,360 Now I'm confused. 855 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:58,800 Now I've seen 30 things. 856 00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:01,119 Um, like, start, what do you want to do? 857 00:37:01,199 --> 00:37:02,320 All right, I'm gonna teach you that. 858 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:02,800 Just that. 859 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,559 There's other stuff in the future. 860 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,760 You want to pre-pave, what I call pre-paving. 861 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,840 Um so it's like, you know, this this is what you want to learn. 862 00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:13,440 This is what we're gonna do. 863 00:37:13,599 --> 00:37:15,199 Uh it's gonna take three steps. 864 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,199 Now, when you get to about 75% of the way there, you know, when 865 00:37:19,199 --> 00:37:21,599 we can see that it's that it's right there and it's gonna 866 00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:24,400 happen, that's when we're gonna want to start talking about X 867 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,119 feature because that's what people then jump to next to make 868 00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:28,400 it to that next level. 869 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,519 Um, just so I want you to be aware of that so you don't lose 870 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:32,639 momentum, right? 871 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:33,199 SPEAKER_00: Right. 872 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:33,760 For sure. 873 00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:36,400 SPEAKER_01: That is much different than them getting 874 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,880 there and being like, hey, you want to buy this now? 875 00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:39,360 unknown: Yeah. 876 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:40,880 SPEAKER_01: Lots of people use it. 877 00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:43,039 Um, so it's like, I'm not even selling this. 878 00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:44,800 It's like, but we're not gonna talk about that today. 879 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,480 We're gonna talk to you about doing XYZ is how you get that 880 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:48,800 result. 881 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,199 Um, made it simpler. 882 00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:55,039 So that way, when I then in future say, like, hey, we're at 883 00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:55,519 75%. 884 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,599 Can you believe it's time to start talking about that? 885 00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:58,559 You did it. 886 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:03,280 That is a symbol of their accomplishment, not you trying 887 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,480 to sell something. 888 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:05,440 SPEAKER_02: Exactly. 889 00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:06,239 No, 100%. 890 00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:08,960 Let them kind of grow into the product based on their business 891 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:09,440 outcomes. 892 00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:09,920 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 893 00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:10,400 SPEAKER_02: That's it. 894 00:38:11,199 --> 00:38:12,719 SPEAKER_01: Well, they're not using this part of the product. 895 00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:16,000 Like, because it doesn't apply to them. 896 00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:17,199 That's okay. 897 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,440 Like, you don't have to use every bit of it. 898 00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:24,239 I get that it makes it stickier, but do one thing right and 899 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,519 they're gonna keep you. 900 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,840 Like, that's that's what they bought you for. 901 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,599 Like, it actually drives me crazy. 902 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,360 I understand why companies are trying to do everything now 903 00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:37,039 because you know they're afraid that you're gonna that you're 904 00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:39,119 gonna migrate to something that does everything. 905 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,800 But I find when you do when you do that, the companies that 906 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,599 quote unquote do everything, they don't do any of it well, 907 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:46,239 you know? 908 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,760 SPEAKER_02: Well, that's it's tricky. 909 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,119 Yeah, 100%. 910 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,760 SPEAKER_01: So focus on what can get the actual job done first. 911 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,159 You can't you can't prevent your company from trying to develop 912 00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:01,519 every single function under the sun, but you can keep your 913 00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:04,800 customers focused on what they care about. 914 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:06,480 SPEAKER_02: For sure. 915 00:39:06,639 --> 00:39:10,400 No, I think this is uh some good takeaways here. 916 00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:13,679 I think um, you know, kind of focusing on those outcomes and 917 00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:16,159 also, you know, taking a step back and not overwhelming the 918 00:39:16,159 --> 00:39:19,199 customer can have a pretty big impact, but also focusing on the 919 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,960 on the actual goal. 920 00:39:21,039 --> 00:39:23,360 And again, I think like something that's not spoken 921 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,159 about enough, you know, we went a lot of different ways, but 922 00:39:26,159 --> 00:39:29,280 like make them make the customer look like the hero because I 923 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,400 think that's gonna really get them bought in and it kind of 924 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,400 goes back to kind of full circle, right? 925 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,960 Like, what does it goes back to the C-suite? 926 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:38,320 What do they care about? 927 00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:42,079 What is your what is your um, you know, your key persona 928 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:42,960 within your platform? 929 00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:43,840 What do they care about? 930 00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:46,960 Same thing applies, and it all wraps up to the psychology and 931 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,960 the self interest, and it's in uh in CS Leadership Academy. 932 00:39:51,039 --> 00:39:53,440 SPEAKER_01: I tell people like, if you remember one thing from 933 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,360 this course, you're gonna hear me say it so many times, and 934 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,719 you're gonna get sick of it. 935 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,880 Uh, it's what's in it for me? 936 00:39:59,039 --> 00:39:59,760 Why do I care? 937 00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:00,960 Why do I care? 938 00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:03,119 You know, and I will I will say this to people. 939 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,159 I will be a jerk. 940 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,199 Uh, you know, they'll they'll be talking about something they're 941 00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:09,360 trying to explain to their executives. 942 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:10,800 I'm like, why do I care? 943 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:12,800 Uh damn it. 944 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,480 I'm like, well, you should care because it's your business. 945 00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:16,079 I'm like, yeah, but I don't. 946 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:16,719 SPEAKER_00: Yep. 947 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,719 SPEAKER_01: Uh and you know, you'll see if you look at my 948 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,719 LinkedIn, um, half the time, so many of the comments are just 949 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:25,760 like, whiff them. 950 00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:27,119 Like, what's in it for me? 951 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:28,559 Like, or why do I care? 952 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,239 And like, people are not being rude to me. 953 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:31,760 They're like doing a callback. 954 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:37,840 Um but that really is, you know, I have all these nuanced ways of 955 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,679 going about it, but it really does come back to that. 956 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,000 Why does this specific person care lead with that sentence? 957 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:46,079 Because I promise you, it's gonna fall out of your brain. 958 00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:48,320 You're gonna go in there with a great plan, being like, I'm 959 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,960 gonna focus on this, and they're gonna care, and then we're gonna 960 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,599 transition to this. 961 00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:54,079 No, it's all gonna fall out of your head because your brain is 962 00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:56,960 gonna hijack it, being like, Yeah, but we need this. 963 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,440 So, what I actually advocate for, very practical tip get 964 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:02,320 post-its. 965 00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:07,039 Anyone you're meeting with, same day or day before you need it in 966 00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:07,440 advance. 967 00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:11,920 The first sentence, just like, hey, I was thinking about 968 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,599 something that could benefit you in X way, you know, like what do 969 00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:18,400 they care about that could increase your sales or could 970 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,400 make closing sales easier for you? 971 00:41:20,639 --> 00:41:24,079 Um, this is me trying to get someone to sell to ICP clients 972 00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:24,400 more. 973 00:41:24,559 --> 00:41:26,880 Like, I thought of something that could make selling and 974 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,800 closing so much easier for you. 975 00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:35,039 Um, I actually have like a um like a story bank and a diagram 976 00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,920 of what stories work best with what type of customers. 977 00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:40,960 Like uh, you know, here were their pain points, here's what 978 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,599 it's like after they're using our software, here's what they 979 00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:46,000 say they love, here's what they don't have to do anymore. 980 00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:49,199 Um, you know, and if you use that, if you use their exact 981 00:41:49,199 --> 00:41:51,119 language, it will have instant resonance. 982 00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:54,239 Now, as a salesperson or marketing, they're like, yeah, 983 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,000 please give me that. 984 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,840 And that's like a positive loop that just you know starts to run 985 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,039 because it's gonna be easier to close the ideal clients, right? 986 00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:07,360 Versus um, can you stop selling to those people? 987 00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:11,280 Like they hate it, they're screwing me up, I can't possibly 988 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:11,920 hit my numbers. 989 00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:15,760 They're like, Yeah, but I gotta hit my numbers, you know, like 990 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:16,880 exactly. 991 00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:20,159 But if you make it so that they can hit their numbers faster, 992 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:24,000 um, and if you're not sure, like how does this tie to that, how 993 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,840 could this possibly benefit them? 994 00:42:26,159 --> 00:42:28,079 Uh ask Chat GPT. 995 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:28,719 It's great. 996 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,239 You know, I can make a lot of uh kind of obscure connections, but 997 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:37,440 if uh if your brain power is low that day, you know, just ask it, 998 00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:39,360 you know, and you can go through a few iterations. 999 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,159 But that's one of those things that's been so helpful. 1000 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,599 I had to do that all on my own brain power before. 1001 00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:47,440 SPEAKER_02: It's so true. 1002 00:42:47,519 --> 00:42:50,559 It's it's actually incredible, like when you're in kind of like 1003 00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:56,159 this like brain fog or blog, like writer's block or whatever 1004 00:42:56,159 --> 00:42:58,480 it is, how much it could help you for sure. 1005 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,360 SPEAKER_01: This week, this week has just been my brain's like, 1006 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:02,159 we're off. 1007 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:03,199 It's Thanksgiving week. 1008 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:04,480 And I'm like, no, but we're not yet. 1009 00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:06,960 And we're trying to fit an entire week into three days. 1010 00:43:07,119 --> 00:43:10,239 Uh it's like, nope, nope, I'm done. 1011 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,079 Please go play with your phone. 1012 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:13,519 Uh yeah. 1013 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,360 I'm just like, all right. 1014 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:16,639 SPEAKER_02: It's so true. 1015 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,760 Um, you know, and and while we're coming we're coming to an 1016 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,559 end here, like in terms of wrapping up, you have you have a 1017 00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:25,360 lot of knowledge on you know, uh on the psychology piece. 1018 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,360 And I think it's something that we don't talk a lot about in the 1019 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:27,519 show. 1020 00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,079 I did have uh Rob Zambido on the on the show. 1021 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:32,239 He talked a little bit about it as well in concept. 1022 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:32,880 Great guy. 1023 00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:34,159 SPEAKER_01: He's on my path. 1024 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,280 Like we are we are two sides of the the same coin. 1025 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,719 He's like my brain twin. 1026 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,519 Uh and the nicest man, too. 1027 00:43:41,679 --> 00:43:44,239 Like, just sweetheart, brilliant. 1028 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:45,440 Love talking to him. 1029 00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:46,480 He's so smart. 1030 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:47,360 SPEAKER_02: Oh, for sure. 1031 00:43:47,519 --> 00:43:50,079 He's a good time and lots of great knowledge too. 1032 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,199 And I guess like I and I can't even remember, you know, 1033 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,079 unfortunately, like the books he recommended or like learnings, 1034 00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:58,719 but I'm curious as far as like where you've gone to learn, like 1035 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,079 the non-traditional learning, right? 1036 00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:02,960 Like anything you recommend, podcasts, books, anything of 1037 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,119 that nature, kind of for the audience to kind of tap into. 1038 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:06,000 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 1039 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,519 Um, you know, this isn't something that I think I've 1040 00:44:09,519 --> 00:44:14,320 mentioned before on podcasts, but that is having started my 1041 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,480 own business, I had to learn marketing. 1042 00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:18,400 I didn't know anything about marketing. 1043 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,400 And marketing is all psychology, like content marketing. 1044 00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:26,159 Um, learning about, you know, direct, like direct sales and 1045 00:44:26,159 --> 00:44:27,119 content marketing. 1046 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,280 That's what teaches you about how to speak to people about why 1047 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:32,079 they should care. 1048 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,519 And you have to do this just as much when someone is a customer 1049 00:44:35,519 --> 00:44:37,599 as when you are selling to them. 1050 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,880 It really teaches you the what's in it for me. 1051 00:44:41,199 --> 00:44:45,039 So um, I've learned a lot from James Wedmore and the Mind Your 1052 00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:46,239 Business podcast. 1053 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:52,000 Um, I've learned a lot from um books on neurolinguistic. 1054 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:53,440 It's too smart for me. 1055 00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:56,079 I can't use it, but I kind of understand it and it's just neat 1056 00:44:56,079 --> 00:44:56,880 to think about. 1057 00:44:57,199 --> 00:45:01,440 Um I've also just learned a ton about how the brain works 1058 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:02,800 because I'm fascinated. 1059 00:45:03,039 --> 00:45:06,960 Um and I I hope this makes people feel better. 1060 00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:08,960 I didn't do this because I'm such a smarty pants. 1061 00:45:09,039 --> 00:45:10,960 I did it because I wanted to be less of a weirdo. 1062 00:45:11,119 --> 00:45:13,920 I was such a weirdo growing up that I was like, I'm gonna I 1063 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,280 just gotta learn more about psychology. 1064 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:16,719 Like, why are people doing these things? 1065 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,320 Then maybe I can try and look normal. 1066 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,280 And it worked. 1067 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:20,880 Uh, you all think I'm normal. 1068 00:45:21,119 --> 00:45:25,119 Uh but you know, that's what really got me into it because 1069 00:45:25,199 --> 00:45:26,320 like we don't make sense. 1070 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,440 The stuff, me too, the stuff we do does not make sense. 1071 00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:31,599 It's against our own interests a lot of the time. 1072 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,519 So uh thinking fast and slow, uh, Daniel Kahneman. 1073 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,519 Um, it's it's a thick book, you know. 1074 00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:42,639 If you want, if you want something a little more chill 1075 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,760 that will still get you the idea, uh Blink by Malcolm 1076 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,920 Gladwell is a good one. 1077 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:53,840 Um and I really like uh Robert Cialdini's influence. 1078 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,639 Um really, really useful. 1079 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,119 I do have a page um on my website, Provansuccess.com. 1080 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,400 If you go to the resources, I have all the books I recommend 1081 00:46:04,639 --> 00:46:08,239 because I am a huge uh book nerd as well. 1082 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,159 But I do it all on audio at this point because uh my children 1083 00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:14,400 consider my cracking open a book an act of war. 1084 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,840 Uh so anything that's on there is probably gonna be really good 1085 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,840 on audio because I can't take it if it's not. 1086 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,880 Uh the one other one I'm gonna recommend just because it is one 1087 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,320 of my absolute favorites, is never split the difference, 1088 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,360 which yeah, everyone loves that, right? 1089 00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:32,079 And the funny thing is, like, I'm such a split the difference 1090 00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:32,400 person. 1091 00:46:32,559 --> 00:46:36,320 Uh like I wanna, I wanna get along, I wanna make it a win for 1092 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,159 everyone, but it really is so CS coded. 1093 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,440 Um, you think it's gonna, you're like, oh, an FBI hostage 1094 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,920 negotiator, this is gonna be so bro and so alpha, and so I'm a 1095 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,280 tough guy, and you got to listen to me. 1096 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,480 And I thought I was gonna hate it. 1097 00:46:50,559 --> 00:46:52,559 And it's the exact opposite. 1098 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,000 And it's about leveraging your empathy, but in a way that's 1099 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,440 actually productive in business. 1100 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,440 So really cool, really fun, amazing on audio. 1101 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:02,159 SPEAKER_02: 100%. 1102 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:02,719 Yeah. 1103 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaking of audio on that fact, for for Chris Voss, loved his 1104 00:47:06,159 --> 00:47:08,960 uh, it's like the one thing I've I loved about like Masterclass. 1105 00:47:09,039 --> 00:47:12,880 If you ever subscribe to the Masterclass series, his uh his 1106 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,719 whole video series on the art of negotiation, great one too. 1107 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,119 And a lot, a lot of pieces, obviously from you know, never 1108 00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:21,519 split the difference, but um but good stuff. 1109 00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:23,920 We'll definitely include those links in the description so that 1110 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,639 way people could kind of you know dive into whatever they 1111 00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:27,599 want to dive into first. 1112 00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:30,880 But um, but other than that, no, obviously, like Pro Van Success, 1113 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,440 they could find you on there on your website directly, but where 1114 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,199 else can everybody find you, Rachel? 1115 00:47:35,519 --> 00:47:38,400 SPEAKER_01: Um, Provan Success.com is like the most 1116 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,079 direct, you'll be able to find everything there. 1117 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,440 I also have my own podcast called Psychology of Customer 1118 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:43,920 Success. 1119 00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:46,159 A little bit on the nose, but easy to remember. 1120 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,719 Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn. 1121 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,519 They haven't really been pushing my stuff very much lately. 1122 00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:54,079 So I promise you I do post all the time. 1123 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,440 So you might have to turn the notifications on to know about 1124 00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:57,599 it. 1125 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,159 Uh but you can always sign up for my newsletter. 1126 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,280 I give, you know, under five minute psych tips for better 1127 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,800 leadership and and CS uh CS work as well. 1128 00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:11,519 Um, those are those are the main ways to search me out. 1129 00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:12,559 SPEAKER_02: Awesome. 1130 00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:13,440 No, good stuff. 1131 00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,079 Well, definitely can relate to the LinkedIn algorithm 1132 00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:19,760 challenges, but 100% definitely encourage everybody to you know, 1133 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,039 click the bell or whatever it is. 1134 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:23,199 SPEAKER_01: Get on my list. 1135 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,360 It's really the only way you're gonna know I exist. 1136 00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:25,760 Yeah. 1137 00:48:26,159 --> 00:48:26,639 SPEAKER_02: 100%. 1138 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:28,400 Well, good stuff. 1139 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,800 Well, Rachel, thanks so much for coming on on the show. 1140 00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:33,840 Great conversations, um, you know, and looking forward for 1141 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,320 everyone, you know, to taking the wealth of knowledge from 1142 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:36,480 you. 1143 00:48:36,559 --> 00:48:37,760 So thanks so much for coming on. 1144 00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:39,119 SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me. 1145 00:48:39,199 --> 00:48:41,199 I loved running my mouth about this. 1146 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,920 It's always fun for me to talk about and have people who 1147 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,719 actually want to hear me say it rather than like my husband and 1148 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,039 my best friend who are like, Jesus Christ, we know. 1149 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:51,760 SPEAKER_02: No, I totally get it for sure. 1150 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,760 No, always always happy to talk shop, you know. 1151 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,599 I'm sure to everyone listening too. 1152 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:56,960 Awesome. 1153 00:48:57,039 --> 00:48:57,920 Well, thanks, Rachel. 1154 00:48:58,079 --> 00:48:59,199 SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much. 1155 00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:01,679 SPEAKER_02: That's a wrap for today's episode. 1156 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,039 Thanks so much for listening. 1157 00:49:03,199 --> 00:49:06,000 If you got some value from this conversation, hit subscribe, 1158 00:49:06,159 --> 00:49:09,280 leave a rating or review, and share it with someone who's also 1159 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,800 out there trying to build a better customer success or 1160 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,920 go-to-market strategy, even if it's messy along the way. 1161 00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:19,280 And if you want more frameworks, tools, automated playbooks, 1162 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,880 check out Johta'sTechTouch.com and subscribe to our newsletter. 1163 00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:24,800 That link is in the description. 1164 00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:26,559 Thanks so much for being here. 1165 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,920 Keep building, keep learning, and I'll catch you on the next 1166 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:30,159 one. 1167 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,480 Quick note before we wrap: this podcast is for educational and 1168 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,000 informational purposes only. 1169 00:49:36,159 --> 00:49:39,760 The ideas and opinions shared here are of my own or those of 1170 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,679 my guests, and don't reflect the views of any current or former 1171 00:49:43,679 --> 00:49:45,760 employers, clients, or partners. 1172 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,199 We might reference tools, platforms, or companies, but 1173 00:49:49,199 --> 00:49:52,159 nothing shared here should be taken as fact, endorsement, or 1174 00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:52,800 criticism. 1175 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,400 Do your own research and always consult your team or legal 1176 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,960 counsel when making any business decisions. 1177 00:49:59,199 --> 00:50:03,039 This content is not legal, financial, or business advice. 1178 00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:07,119 It's just us sharing what's worked, what hasn't, and how 1179 00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:08,320 we've learned from both. 1180 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,239 So thanks again for joining us. 1181 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:11,360 We'll see you next time.