Leading Without a Playbook w/ Stephanie Blair

I had this recognition with one person. She was a top performer. She had some really amazing logos like Fortune 50, Fortune 100, and amazing growth stories. And we wanted to help the rest of the team understand it.

And the way that we did that as a sales leadership culture at the time was to have this gong on the floor. Every time somebody had a really big win, we went and gonged and we shared the story. And I realized she was always having meetings out of the office on Thursdays. She did not want to be a part of that spotlight.

It's just the format of that made her really uncomfortable, even though she was one of the best. Welcome to Customer Unsuccess, the podcast where we cut out the noise and talk with real leaders about their hardest lessons in customer success and other go-to-market motions. I'm your host, Joe DeGrande, and in each episode, we're going to unpack real challenges from real leaders. Failed tech implementation, a strategy that didn't yield results for difficult customers.

But more importantly, we're going to take those lessons learned and share them with you so that way you can avoid those mistakes with your team. So if you're in customer success, sales, or other go-to-market motions, stick around and hear from the best. Now let's dig into it. On this episode of Customer Unsuccess, I talked with Stephanie Blair, who's the founder and CEO of Knowing Floor, and with over 10 years of experience in CS and other go-to-market roles, also a former CRO and VP of account management.

She shares lessons from leading US versus UK teams and really ditching one size fits all playbooks and how to uncover each rep's motivators. Yes, some reps even really hate it ringing the gong. So I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you do too.

Now let's dive in. Should we kick this off? Let's do it. Alright, awesome.

Well, thank you, Stephanie, for coming on the Customer Unsuccess podcast. For those of you who don't don't know Stephanie, she's the founder and CEO of Know and Flourish, where we basically her and her team uh focus on providing professional growth solutions and for go-to-market teams, really when they're at that pivotal skill moment. So definitely check her out if you're not familiar. But thanks so much for coming on, Stephanie.

Thanks for having me, Joe. It's great to be here. Awesome. And you know, I've obviously known you for quite some time, and I know just on your background, you've led a number of account management teams.

You know, I know you were the head of account management for also two different regions at particular companies, which is also very interesting. I'm curious to hear those stories. But you know, what we don't talk a lot about on the show is leadership, right? And understanding those challenges there about like how one different working with different personalities, different motivators, and then also just maybe what worked at one organization doesn't work always at another or you know, particular look of business and so on.

So I'm curious, you know, like talk to me about like your background and like how any stories that have come up you know in that regard. Sure. Well, I'm not gonna give you my whole background, but I did start as a salesperson, um, doing both pre- and post-sales. So I had the you know, the new business and the account management baked into one.

Um and then when I when I moved into the SaaS world, it was a company called eMarketer. We were selling digital research to uh the masses, and I had Fortune 500 clients who you know had a handful of licenses with us, and we were really looking to get um to democratize research out of just research and business intelligence teams who were great partners, but also get them to the front lines, to the CMO, to the head of e-commerce, to those who are making those revenue generating decisions.

Um, and so that in its in and of itself was like a mini MBA program just to get close to you know the likes of Coca-Cola or Mattel and figure out their global, you know, business challenges and um, you know, talk about there not being one playbook for that. Um, you know, there's just so many layers and nuances that I just learned through helping them and partnering with them in navigating those moments of change. Um, but I think the real sort of textbook learning that we hear about a lot, I do executive coaching and we think about our first time as people leaders, you know, like sort of the functional managers of the group.

Um, and mine came on the heels of um, you know, pretty successful Ranati marketer. I was one of the top performers, really expanding these relationships to be enterprise-wide. Um, and we were at a business critical growth moment as well. And so it was great to have the opportunity to be tapped and um be asked to lead this team.

But, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know in terms of people management, in terms of what were the different styles while I worked with these people. They were my peers. Um, I had to, you know, sort of reintroduce myself, which is sometimes harder to do than being an outsider coming in. I think um that's another topic we can chat about.

So two different leadership approaches. How do you show up differently when you were once a peer versus coming into a new organization and really doing that listening and learning tour? But um, yeah, one of my most critical growth moments, I'd say, was that opportunity and um so grateful to the company for seeing potential in me. But I think what I realize now is that a lot of people fly blind in those moments.

And so as an executive coach, I'm helping people who are first-time C-suite, um, or maybe you know, first-time SVP moving up from the VP level, and um, making sure that you look at those first hundred days as critical moments for setting the groundwork and making sure you have everybody moving in the same direction. Awesome. No, 100%. It's definitely crucial.

I think a lot of people also don't realize the impact of that coaching and also they, you know, just understand that they could be flying blind. I think a lot of people just kind of fall on this trap of like, you know, just constantly thinking, right? They're working against themselves. It's hard for as a senior leader too, if you're just kind of like a first-time senior leader and you're just like, hey, should I be asking for help?

What I should be asking for in terms of support and so on. So I'm actually curious, right? Like, you know, as someone that has held multiple leadership roles, I'm curious if you have stories around like some of those challenges, right? Like as far as like, hey, like what what have I gotten myself into and what can I really like ask for in terms of support?

Sure. Well, you know, they say it's lonely at the top. That's that's real. You know, you get there and you you, you know, I've talked to a lot about imposter syndrome.

You you know, everybody feels it at different points of their career in life, but I think it's especially true when you know the business or a team of leaders see something in you, um, and so you you you're excited, you rise to that occasion, but then you were like, oh wait, I don't have all the answers. So um, first is mindset. I think you know, I remind a lot of the people I work with that, hey, you might not have done this set of challenging things before, but you have sort of tackled new and unforeseen challenges and you've come to the other side.

So, what are the frameworks, the mindset opportunities, the ways of thinking that helped you get from A to Z before? Um, but I also think it's like you have to be a constant learner yourself. Um, I wish I had engaged a coach earlier in my career than than I did. I ended up engaging a coach.

I had lots of great mentors, so I was always grateful to them, both in and out of the business. But community and coach, I wish I had way earlier. I ended up doing that sort of in this next chapter of life, the past seven years with No and Flourish. But I um I think you could just get where you want to be faster with someone who's in your corner.

It's the same as you know, you have fitness goals, you get a trainer. Uh, you have nutrition goals, you work with a specialist. Um, I think now coaching should be viewed that way, um, especially if you're finding somebody who matches your high performance nature, action-orientedness. Um so yeah, these are these are some ideas.

Um, the the the other key thing is people are people at the end of the day, and we we can't take for granted that like we know a version of someone just because it's like you're growing up in the business. So one of the things I realized was like, all right, I had a way of doing things, I have a certain intensity, I have a certain high bar. And yes, the business recognized, the teams recognize that there's this critical moment. We want them to be excited to be a part of it, but not everyone is motivated by the same things.

So just because you have like a killer comp plan in place doesn't mean that you know, 100% of your team of 12 or team of 20 is going to be on board with that. Maybe they want more exposure opportunities, maybe they want more long-term professional development or just some flexibility, right? We need to understand what are those drivers. Um, and so the best way I did that was taking people out once a quarter, outside of the office, outside of our normal one-on-one cadence, and just say, hey, where do you want to be in five years?

Who do you aspire to be in this company? Um, you know, what what leaders you know get you excited about showing up and what are some of those skills that you want to embody and how can we help you work on those skills? And it was really interesting to see who had a very rigid five-year plan, who maybe started to not see themselves in the future of this business, which was so important from a retention standpoint, to understand and figure out what we could do to put our arms around them and give them some growth support.

Um, but you have to do it out of the office, you have to do it sort of in a more personal way, um, and then remember that that's that person's wiring, and then you've got the collective to sort of harmonize with. Yeah, no, it's it's actually pretty interesting um seeing what motivates people, you know, right, and in different ways. I even talked to a leader the other day about like how they have a post-sales team, but they're a little bit more technical, and they have they have a goal to hit in terms of it's a it's a very specific reverent U goal, and it's not not motivating whatsoever.

They're not they weren't used to it because they come from a more technical background. So they need to kind of take that step back and then just rethink of like, okay, how do I motivate this team? Um, but I'm I'm I'm curious based on your experience, right? What are some examples that you caught on, right, about like what motivates people, right?

Like if there's you know, the monetaries is pretty clear, right? Like in terms of someone is just you know money driven and focusing on hitting their goals. But I'm curious, just based on you know what you've seen, what are some of those other ones and other examples? Yeah, well, I think giving people that leadership seat on occasion, that that ability to sort of try on a managerial role in the team, you know, maybe that's running a pipeline meeting or they, you know, are expert in running quarterly business reviews.

How can we put them in like the head of that committee of some sort and give them the opportunity to share those best practices, that that zone of genius with others and find that for each person? I tend to call that more of a stretch project, but it's a way for them to start gaining some of those leadership skills that they might not have today through just opportunities that you create in one to many climates for them. So that's one thing. The other thing is, you know, especially in sales and customer success cultures, like we always want to celebrate the wins.

This is why I love your premise, Joe. It's like we're gonna talk about the hard stuff too, because it's not all about the wins. Um, but I had this recognition with one person. She was a top performer, she had some really amazing logos like Fortune 50, Fortune 100, and amazing growth stories.

And we wanted to sort of bottle up her magic and help the rest of the team understand it. And the way that we did that as a sales leadership culture at the time was to have this gong on the floor. And every time somebody had a really big win, whether it was expansion or net new, we went and gonged and we shared the story. And I realized, um, and we would gather, especially on Thursday afternoons, and we would make a social element as well.

And I realized she was always having meetings out of the office on Thursdays. She did not want to be a part of that spotlight. It wasn't that she didn't want to share, it's just the format of that made her really uncomfortable, even though she was one of the best. And so, you know, we really have to understand how people are wired and what their history is, and and um not push them to be uncomfortable if there are other ways to, you know, to extract that in a way that's also more um respectful of them and their needs.

So that was a really big learning for me. I I think every leadership team should figure out some sort of tool or assessment that they can use to create a best uh baseline. You know, there are the disks and things of the world. Um, our HR team at the time did like a Myers-Briggs thing, but there's some really interesting assessments out there that allow you to look at preference.

There is no right or wrong then, um, and it can just create a framework, a system of understanding, um, so that you can avoid tension and um you know maybe preconceived preconceived notions. Yeah, no, for sure. I do remember doing those um, you know, in a number of positions, and they're pretty valuable, like the disk assessments or the you know, Meyer Briggs. It's um you start to learn, again, based on the responses, like how what makes people tick?

And I think it's pretty valuable from a leadership you know point of view. Um but I guess like uh I'm curious on when we talk about you mentioned in the beginning about coming from you know from a leadership, you were more of like an individual contributor, and then you have your peers who you are now managing. And I think that's a pretty interesting transition, and a lot of people do experience, right? Because it's like it's it's just again a change in command.

So I'm curious as far as like what are some of the challenges that you've seen as far as like navigating that and as far as like kind of give guidance to the audience as far as when they're in that similar scenario. Yeah, it's it's it's a blessing and a curse, right? Like it's so exciting to grow in the business. Um, but if there's only one spot and several people want it, there could be some disappointment and some tension that you're navigating.

I was just coaching somebody through that, sort of the the bridesmaid, not the bride this time around. And that's a tough pill to swallow when you're not on the one who gets the promotion. When you are the one who gets the promotion, first and foremost, you need to understand that there is sensitivity here. Um, and you need to really be you know can candid with people in terms of the respect you have for them, the strengths that you see, and the type of the type of leader you plan to be in terms of wanting to have good ideas come from everywhere, or just showing them the value across the board.

Um I think creating like some sort of user manual or SLA with the people on the team is important too, because you know, there might be certain things that you don't want to walk away from, but you still also can't be so friendly, right? You got to find that like sweet spot. Um, and so how can we give people who are maybe more senior or who you um you know know are already going the extra mile? Can you give them some um lanes of ownership or things like that?

Um but yeah, it's just like and it's it's not a one and done conversation, is the last thing I would say. I think some people are like, oh, I made this transition, I had the talk, great, we're moving forward. And change is hard and everybody processes change differently. And so you've got to have a series of touch points in those first hundred days in particular, and then on a you know, maybe quarterly or bi-monthly basis, just to make sure that you're tracking.

You don't want to make an issue out of nothing, but at the same point, we can't just tell ourselves, oh, we did that, we're done, and everybody's now magically following behind us. That's just not how human behavior or change works. Yeah, no, it's it's actually pretty interesting, and I think some people kind of forget that, right? Where it's just not, it's not like a checklist item where it's like, okay, someone so-and-so's happy.

We had that one happy conversation, like leadership. It's again similar in customer success, right? It's it's different than new business. It's not done at point of sale and and then passing it off to a team.

Exactly. This is a it's an ongoing thing to kind of build up, making sure that they're enabled. Also, they're you know, again, feeling okay. I think EQ is uh another piece, right?

Talking about you know, different styles and personalities. Um it's um it's another piece that is a little bit less technical, right? It's just more of it's kind of that art. Um I love the art.

It's an art and a science. That's what sales is, that's what success is, that's what leadership is. There are you know tons of books and frameworks and things like that you can read, but ultimately you've got to tune in and be be present and really understand people and trust your gut. If something's off, it's not always about you either.

There just could be other things going on in life that you as a leader can help support. Um, and I think that was another big leadership lesson for me is like you really don't know what people are navigating, and um, you want to create that safe space, that psychological safety, so that if they are going through something big outside of the working hours, outside of those working walls, that you can find ways to support them as a business and as a and as a person, as a human.

100%. No, it's definitely um definitely important, I think. Also too, um, it it goes back to you're just you're you're dealing with people, right? They're they're human beings and you have pretty you have to have that kind of one intuition, but two, it's just like, all right, peeling back the layers and trying to understand, like, okay, it goes back to the motivation too.

What could be whatever, whatever the motivation, whether it's you know positive or the outcome, positive or negative outcome, what is the underlying motivation that's causing that? Um and and then celebrate those stories. Like, I know a lot of customer success people, you know, they're looking for that win. They want the win for the business, but it's less about the revenue.

It's more about like they had this need, we met it, I feel really good to be the shepherd of that. And so, how can we, you know, talk about that and include that in our team culture, put that as a center point of our sales strategy, even is like put the customers at the heart of things, share those customer stories, and that's also a great way to onboard new team members. I mean, there's so many benefits of it, but it also just helps the prospective client understand and and sort of feel what others in their shoes have felt by working with your team or your or your suite of services products.

That's awesome. No, 100%. I think it what's interesting too, um with uh your background too, and I'm curious, you know, if you provide some insight on this, is the transition as far as also because we've all we've had experience on like working with different countries globally and so on, but you've also managed a team before uh should I say, like across the pond in the UK, um, and then as well as obviously here here in the States. So I'm curious as far as like were there things in terms of your process, right?

Kind of going back to the beginning when we talked about like the playbook, right? There's some things that work in certain scenarios and not in particular others. I'm curious if there's any examples from that standpoint where it's like, hey, this is my style here versus how I'm approaching it in a totally different geographical location because obviously you're dealing with different cultures and so on. Yeah, there were so many moments like that.

I mean, one one silly one comes to mind. I remember the I love the Brits, I love London, I love living in the UK. Um, but there were some things that were just different. And I remember once, like even having a tapas meal with the CMO and someone from her team, and they're like, okay, well, these are my two tapas, and I'm gonna have these two, and no one's sharing the tapas.

We can't touch each other's plates. I'm like, oh, okay, this is how things are done here. Something as silly as that, where you have to really sort of rewire quickly and observe that your normal open approach is is really offensive, maybe to somebody. Um, and then the other thing I remember is like a big client, a big uh CPG client uh had a decent footprint with us, but we were looking to expand it.

So we brought in one of the executives. I was the head of AMEA at the time, and we were like just brainstorming. We're like, hey, what else could we do to you know help you get more information into the critical hands and how do we expand this long-standing partnership? And this stakeholder was very nervous to make even an ask of us.

They wanted to like understand usage in a slightly different manner than how we had been presenting it. It was totally possible. Um, and it was a very fair ask given like the give get that we were experiencing. Hey, we're looking to like engage in a three-year contract with you at this increased level.

So sure you want to better understand, you know, the different personas or the top users, etc. And it took, it was like pulling teeth out of this gentleman to like get him. I was like, so am I hearing you right that this is the ask? And it was like, yeah, yeah, but only if you know, it was like so deferential and didn't want to overstep and so polite.

And it was just like, oh, this is like an unspoken barrier. And I'm like this New York fast talker, very direct type person. And um, you know, I had to take those types of clients on a different journey. And then you had, you know, being in a MEA, we were the hub for all of Europe, really.

Sure. So, you know, the French operate one way, the Italians operate another way. It's it's not all, you know, blanket statements, but there are just even like just structurally how things get done, from a yes to a procurement to a signed contract, right, to a renewal, all of that is different culture to culture and business to business. And so I just think always be that's why one of the skills I look for in in sellers and customer success people is like this curiosity and this desire to always be learning, um, because you're learning in real time in those experiences.

And if you're not picking up on those cues, that's where sort of deals fall apart, right? Yeah, no, it's it's fascinating. It's it's it's actually pretty interesting too, because uh you called out the the fast talk, you know, talking New Yorker and you know, or East Coast or however we define, or Northeastern. And it you see some of that too, and people often just forget about even within in the US, right?

There's different parts of the US where I mean compare you know the battle of the East Coast versus West Coast, where West Coast might be more laid back in terms of their process versus East Coast is more direct. And you know, I think it's um it it brings testament to also like how you need to always continuously adjust and be mindful of what the moment is, whether that's working with a client, working working as a leader with your you know, your direct reports. Um, so it's funny, yeah.

Something else that just came to mind as you were chatting about that East and West, I them, you know, that sort of thing. Um, you know, we had a perception to overcome at that business moment, which is you're a US company trying to expand in in the UK and we're gonna cross our arms and we're gonna make you work for it. And so you had to just think about your own actions and your own approach, like add the U in if we're talking about flavors, or you know, put things in their time zone.

They don't talk about 2 p.m., they talk about 14 o'clock. Like you've got to assimilate to some degree if you're gonna earn that trust.

You have to understand and prove, you know, and show to them that you get the culture. Just like in LA, nobody's really taking meetings before 10 because it takes two hours to get anywhere. So don't be offering an 8 a.m.

slot just because it's better for you on the East Coast. You know, be be mindful of what that person's reality is and um and and do your best to, you know, speak their language, so to speak. 100%. Yeah, and the the speaking speaking the language even literally and just like in terms of concept in terms of concept, uh, it kind of I actually we've been on an arugula kick in the house, and that's where I remember I'm like, oh yeah, and in the UK it was called Rocket.

So like And the reason the reason why I bring that up too, I had a uh another you know uh conversation on a different episode of our podcast that'll come up and talking about even uh understanding different lingos of different products too. And I think like it kind of interchangeably, right? You just kind of need to know how to walk the walk, the walk, and talk the talk. And I think it's very important when when it comes to working with different cultures, different different types of clients, different personalities, and could have a pretty huge impact uh, you know, on your the way you work.

Like don't be emailing them on a bank holiday, right? That too and saying uh a nice sunny afternoon. So um we just have to be, you know, take that extra step to think about those cultural norms and differences. Um and I think it's even more important in the climate we're in now, like not to get overly political or anything like that, but it's just you know, back to the point of you don't know what people are navigating, like it this is a moment.

People are can be struggling globally, their families could be impacted by just everything going on out there. And so we just need to, you know, just have that mutual respect out of the gate and prove that you're not just here to get the contract signed or to make the outcome that you care about, but that again, we're we're people in this process navigating life outside of work. And um, you know, want to be sensitive to that. 100%.

Yeah, I think also too, like that kind of goes down to understanding like we could kind of fall into our own bubble as far as the news, right? Like we're focused on what's happening here, but if you are working globally, what is happening in the world and are have they been impacted and be thoughtful in terms of those, you know, those communications, like you mentioned. I think it's super crucial. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, so I wanted to go back to a topic that we were talking about earlier, which is the differences between different markets and also what you're looking for. And I think this also happens for new leaders if they're coming from a big company and they're used to having you know robust budget and now they're at a more of a scale-up, um, or even in this climate where people are having to cut back on certain tools and such. Um I'll never forget like interviewing for the team.

Like we had a really solid team in place, we were growing off of that base, and I had a couple of you know, SDRs, um, some more junior roles to hire for, and then I also had some critical sales hires. And I'll never forget this guy shows up to this office. Now we were like a startup with the backing of a bigger company, but we were, you know, in a co-working space, we had our own private office. But, you know, if there was an issue with your computer, you weren't calling a tech team live.

You had to like remote in to the US or figure it out on your own. And so he shows up in like this pinstripe suit, really, you know, all and and fine, dress the part, right? Um, or overdress for the part. But I was like, I can never see this person like getting under the desk and trying to figure out why the power source wasn't picking up.

Like there's a certain resourcefulness that comes from big small, you know, going from that to show that you have that scrappiness. Um, and so I I think the the lesson I learned there is to just be clear on what those intangibles are and and what is like required for the stage of growth that your business is in at that point. We were lean, we were mean, you know, we were working really hard together, having fun, but we had to figure this out. We were up before anybody else in the US market.

We had to, you know, be resourceful, problem solve, come together, be helpful, go that extra mile for each other. Um, and you had to find culturally people who could fit that and and that person. He was a great you know, candidate on paper, but just wouldn't be a good cultural fit. Yeah, no, 100%.

Um, yeah, I can't I can't let the visual leave my mind right now. Now I'm trying to try to picture it. The best the best days. Um a lot of success there.

But we worked, we worked really hard. No, 100%. I think also too, like in that environment, it's just you know, testament to being scrappy, right? I don't think you could I think it's it's a knack that you should never really let go, not saying any, you know, you or anybody just saying anybody out in the audience, like try to be scrappy as best as you can and kind of get your hands dirty because um you never know when it's gonna be valuable.

But yeah, it also shows that you can problem solve, which is so key, especially in customer success. We need to be open to knowing what the problems are, resourceful and creative in terms of how we solve them, and um ultimately be driving towards some outcome. And in our case, it was a successful hub servicing a hundred countries. Um, you know, we had to find the people who were you know who fit that mold.

100%. No. So I I guess like you've obviously have had years of experience, customer success, new business as well, obviously now coaching and kind of helping go to market leaders. But I'm curious as far as like, you know, outside of you, like where where did you go to learn, right?

Like obviously, like, you know, none of us have probably gone to school for customer success, account management, sales, right? I mean, there's tons of books, podcasts, there's courses now that you could pay for. I mean, I'm just curious as far as like what is what do you recommend as far as like people go out there and do and read or something that maybe resonated with you? Yeah, I think the biggest game changer for me was joining the pavilion community.

At the time it was called Revenue Collective. It was a series of like, you know, sort of dinner soirees and conversations. Um, but now it's like a several thousand strong global community of uh executives and associates who are in the go-to-market engine. Um, and so you know, leaning in when I was doing sort of fractional CRO work or for engagements where I'm coaching people in those sorts of seats, it's been incredibly helpful.

Um, I'm also a gold member uh executive coach for these small cohorts that they're linking, uh kicking off this this year. And so that's been really rewarding. And so I just think like you got to find the places where your people are where you can be you know candid and open and and and seek resources. On the flip side, you know, so that's for more of like the subject matter expertise.

Um on the flip side, I'm also a business owner and I run this, you know, sort of professional advisory where there's coaching, there's Advising, their special projects and sales training. And so I need to find people who are also doing similar work where we can collaborate, where we can share ideas, inspire one another. And that community for me has been the upside. And so these two communities, I think I I just the caliber of people is high, the um the programming and the resources are vast, and it's just where I where I turn to keep leveling up in addition to my own investments and coaches and things like that.

So I think just finding a community and then leveraging that. It's not enough to just sign up and you have to lean in, you've got to show up, you've got to give to get. And if you can find that place and and all the better if your business can sponsor you in some way, um then you know it's it's it's up to you to sort of seize that moment. 100%.

Yeah, I think I can't stress even personally myself enough on the importance of networking and then contributing. I've seen it time and time in communities, whether you know Pavilion, a couple others I'm in, CS Collective, RevOps Collective, and there are um, you know, you meet great people great people um having those coffee chats, but also you learn things from them that you probably they'll uh essentially turn over a stone. Then it's like, oh wow, let me go down this path.

And whether it's a career path, whether it's you know something that maybe it's a tech solution that you were evaluating or just a process that you want to put in place, you could learn quite a bit just by collaborating with your peers. And then potentially, obviously, from business owner to business owner, even business. There's opportunities there as well. Right.

Um you have to be listening, you have to actually be showing up and present. Yes, just showing up to the weekly call and checking the box again. I think that's been one of our themes today. 100% listening, true curiosity, and um, you know, true engagement goes along with it.

100%. Yeah, I think like as a as like a wrap-up, right? Like the key themes like kind of for the audience, I think you hit the nail on the head, right? It's it is that listening.

I think it's it's listening and then also that, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, that understanding, right? Like making sure that it's like, hey, what you knew in the past, right? It's actually two things. It's like what you did in the past might not work, a textbook, but also two, and understanding, um, as well as understanding, like, hey, um, having that that thought process of in terms of being again leveling up, right?

Like having that confidence. I think we talked a little bit about imposter syndrome where it's like, hey, even though I didn't manage people prior, the same the same ways I achieved the goals in the past, um, I could still instill those same frameworks and processes to achieve my goals going forward, managing teams. Yeah, for sure, for sure. But but again, you've got to balance that now with like a seeking of new tools, new ways of being, right?

So you've you've got to sort of straddle that line of doubt to say I've done hard things, I've I'm resourceful in that manner, but always be seeking um and and collecting feedback along the way, making sure that that's there. Um yeah, so there is no one playbook, but there's certainly great resources out there for whatever moment you're in, and you don't have to do it alone, I think is the big takeaway. 100%. Yeah, definitely don't do it alone.

Don't do it alone, that is for sure. Now, Stephanie, any any books as well? I'm I'm always curious on books. I'm I'm a book nerd myself, at least that's how I learn, but I'm curious.

Yeah, um three come to mind based on what we talked about today. The first is anything by Lencioni, uh Patrick Lencioni, the five dysfunctions of a team. That one is one that if we're going through change moments, we want to look back to flourish forward, you know, we need to learn what's working, what's not. So that's one.

For those who are um stepping into a leadership role for the first time and really finding their voice in their way, especially as a young woman, someone who identifies as a woman, The Myth of a Nice Girl by Fran Hauser is one of the most gifted books that I give first-time leaders. Um, and then of course, Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Um, I just think in terms of having honest, open discussion, heading challenges head-on, and um, you know, creating that trust and psychological safety, there's some great frameworks in there.

Awesome, good stuff. We'll definitely uh we'll drop those in the show notes and make sure that uh everyone could check those out. Awesome. On that note, where Stephanie, where can everybody find you?

Sure. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Stephanie Blair, B-L-A-I-R at knowandflourish.com or via Substack, Grow and Flourish. Awesome, good stuff.

We'll definitely put those in the show notes for sure. Um, the Substack, your your website, and so on. But thank you so much for coming on. Really enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you. Good good to be here, Joe. Thanks. That's a wrap for today's episode.

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