Driving change in transport recruitment

Ann Rimmer: Welcome to the Real B2B Brand Stories podcast. I'm Ann Rimmer, founder and Chief Brand Strategist at Propelled. We specialise in brand positioning for B2B companies. This series features niche companies doing things differently, which is why I'm delighted to welcome Nina Lockwood, founder and CEO of Intuitive Talent Solutions, an executive search firm specialising in the UK rail and transport sector. I invited Nina on because Intuitive do recruitment very differently and, um, with gusto. You will hear how they have broken the recruitment mould, choosing instead to put equal importance on candidate and client, operating as trusted advisors to both dedicated to ensuring not just any bum gets on, um, a seat, but the right bum in the right seat for the right reasons. A really refreshing approach to recruitment. Nina shares the sources of differentiation, the ethos and, um, principle the business is built upon. The marketing approach to grow their own brand awareness. Um, and she shares some top tips for any business founder. I absolutely loved our conversation and I know you will too. So please welcome to Nina Lockwood. Oh, good morning, Nina.

Nina Lockwood: Good morning, Anne.

Ann Rimmer: It's so lovely to have you with us and I'm really excited to be able to feature, uh, Intuitive Talent Solutions on, on the Real B2B Brands podcast.

Nina Lockwood: Thank you so much. I'm excited to share the story on, um. Although it feels a bit strange to me to be on this side of the microphone rather than being the one asking the questions. So, um, yes, but thank you for the invitation to join you. I appreciate it.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah. Well, it's about time that we, uh, we actually featured you on a podcast because you, you actually run your own and I know you've done, you're into your second series. You've done how many interviews now?

Nina Lockwood: Over 60. Yeah, 60 plus. Um, which to say I started off by saying I'll do five and see how we get on is quite some achievement really. But I, I have loved it. I really, really loved hearing people's, um, stories, career stories and leadership stories. So it's one of the most enjoyable parts of my job. I love it.

Ann Rimmer: I agree. We're very lucky. So I thought it'd be really good if we could start with you just telling us about Intuitive, because a lot of the listeners may not have heard of the business or yourself. So if you could tell us a little bit about what's led you to found Intuitive, um, and, um, your role and. Yeah, just tell us about the team.

Nina Lockwood: Okay. Um, so what led me to found the business? I think ultimately for me, what I've learned about myself over the very long career, um, History that I've had, um, I don't want to. I nearly said the actual number of years then, but that scared the life out of me. And how it can be that long when I'm only 33 I don't know. But anyway, um, what I discovered about myself quite early on in my career and was working for the Royal bank of Scotland in their head office in Edinburgh. And um, we were. There was a huge change program and it was a massive um, transformation program because the Royal bank um, was a very, very traditional high street bank. The competing financial services organizations had all moved on quite a few years earlier to the realization that they couldn't survive in that mode anymore. They needed to change and uh, move from being a traditional high street bank into a retail organization. So this was the bit where every time you went in your bank branch, when we used to have bank branches more so than we do now, um, the cashier would ask you where your mortgage is, did you want the savings account alone? Etc. Because the idea being the more products, the more accounts you had with the bank, the more likely you were not to move somewhere else. So we would hang on to you and we'd hang on to your money, which obviously is the end game. Being part of that transformation program meant that I worked with lots of people who were very, very talented in different areas. And some of them that was around technical innovation, it was around distribution strategy, it was around um, new new account design, new branch design actually as well. And what I realized, um, working with all of these people is that the most interesting part of all, all of that for me was the people bit. It was kind of how does that impact on the employees and on the customer? And um, quite early on I was invited to go and look at the new branch design by the strategy director at the time. Because I was the person within head office who had the most recent experience of working in a real branch. Um, I was one of a very, very small handful of people who had that kind of real frontline. Um, and they took me to see this new branch design and it's kind of like, yeah, it's not going to work is it? It looks beautiful. But for the people working in it and for the customers coming in, there's a number of things that we need to change. So it's at ah, that point for me that I started realizing that the real interest for me is people. And that has been a theme, um, that's continued I think in terms of why intuitive and why a recruitment business. This came about because I Left the bank when I was 30, having built up a number of different skills that were then very attractive to other organizations in different industry sectors that were going through change. And so I had um, a management consultancy career. So I went straight from banking to uh, facilities management in offshore oil rigs. Um, so I was. Spent quite a few months up in Aberdeen and um, then went on to do a number of different assignments with different client organisations across, as I say, different industry sectors.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: Um, and the theme started to emerge that the client was saying to me, nina, we need a few more people like you. Do you know anybody? And um, yes I do because I've worked with that person on that project and that person on that project. And it became apparent quite quickly that I have a skill for being able to match an individual and their knowledge and experience with what that particular client needed within that particular program of change. Um, and I really enjoyed doing it as well. And I would. Historically I used to describe myself as nosy, um, but I think the word we're supposed to use these days is curious. So I'm very curious about a client's business and also very curious about a person's career. Where have they been? What have they done? Why have they done it? Why did they do that? Why did they make the decisions that they made? Um, and I think that curiosity helps me to understand people at a deeper level, which means that I've got a much better chance of being able to match the right person with the right role and the right organization with the right person. So having started in a very, very kind of casual and informal way, um, for. For no financial gain at all, um, although one person did buy me a beautiful set of wine glasses from Edinburgh Crystal as I remember. I love that. Um, but it wasn't a business, it was just something I did because I enjoyed doing it. That m morphed into me falling into recruitment, which, um. I worked with a number of, uh, colleagues from the Royal Bank. Uh, we'd all left the bank, we were all doing various different, um, interim management consultancy assignments. And um, um, we set up a business, we worked together. I reached a point where I felt that the way that I wanted to do things, um, was. Was different. And um, not everybody has the patience for it or the belief that it can actually work if we do it a different way. And so 13 years ago, just, just over 13 years ago, we celebrated our birthday. In January. I launched Intuitive Talent Solutions. And um, this was around my absolute belief that there was a different way of doing it, different way of Doing senior level recruitment and interim recruitment as well, where all three parties who are involved in that recruitment relationship, that being the client who wants to recruit talent into their team, the candidate who is looking for their next role, their next career step, and um, the recruitment consultancy who want to bring those two people together. Historically, my own experience as a client of recruitment businesses and um, a candidate of recruitment businesses was that that three, three way relationship didn't work. It wasn't effective. It was very transactional. And um, um, I'm a relationship kind of person. So um, I did feel there was a different way of doing it. A way of doing it which focused on people and um, a way of doing it where all three parties involved in that recruitment and selection process had equal weighting within. We were all partners to achieve an outcome that was the right outcome for everybody.

Ann Rimmer: Yes. Which is really interesting and we're definitely going to just unpick that a little bit more. Just something that's sprung to mind as I was listening to you there. There is something uh, that I only learned about a couple of years ago that you will definitely know about, which is ikigai, which is about. I think it's Japanese, isn't it? It's about finding the thing that you're good at that you really enjoy doing, that the world needs.

Nina Lockwood: Yes.

Ann Rimmer: Um, and that's what you've described. That's how you've ended up owning, founding a recruitment business and being involved in that. It's not matchmaking. There is a little bit of that involved, but that skill really of reading people, understanding people, understanding what a business needs and then bringing the two together so that they actually form a partnership and it works and lasts. Um, so yeah, it's, that's what we're all looking for, isn't it? To do it, do a job that doesn't feel like a job. And I'm very.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah, yeah. That's the optimum, isn't it? Absolutely. To do a job that doesn't feel like you're working.

Ann Rimmer: Definitely. And, and I know how fortunate I am to have found the career I have. And um. Same for you as it sounds here.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: So when you decided to launch Intuitive, what were the things that you saw in recruitment you kind of mentioned there that not everybody wanted to do it this way. So particularly in transport, what was it that you saw needed to change and what rules did you consciously decide to break?

Nina Lockwood: Um, that. Do you know, Anne, that's such an interesting question because traditionally I'm not a rule breaker. I'm quite compliant um, so it's an interesting question is that I think, first of all, kind of the decision I've made the decision to set up my own business because I felt that there was a different way of doing it. But I wasn't convinced that I would get that opportunity if I was working for someone else or, to be honest, either with someone else in some kind of, you know, partnership arrangement. I needed to be in control of my own destiny is ultimately what it came down to. And, um, to. To prove myself either wrong or right, that by doing it this way I can earn a decent living out of it. So at that point, having made the decision, um, that I'm going to set up my own recruitment business, I then needed to decide what industry sector should I be focusing on? Because I didn't want to. I'd worked in financial services, I'd worked in utilities in terms of recruitment, but I wanted to do something completely different. I wanted to. As, as mad as this may sound to people listening, I wanted a blank piece of paper. And I went for a walk one day with a good friend of mine who, um, is a clever chap. I said to him, andy, can you tell me what industry sectors do you think needs my expertise? And we had a really good conversation over a walk and a pub lunch where we kind of reached the conclusion between us that there was two industry sectors that, um, that were interesting and needed more, um, research. One was construction and one was transport. Now, transport appealed to me automatically. I liked the fact that it, um, that it supports the economy, that it supports society, that it supports the environment. All of these things were ticking a lot of boxes for me. But also when I looked at the transport industry, I could see that there was a level of change and transformation that was required that was really similar to what I'd seen when I worked for the Royal bank in the 1990s.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah. Where, uh.

Nina Lockwood: Because the bank changed from being traditional high street into retail, at the time we had 15,000 people working in this new retail bank who didn't join the bank to sell. That is not why they joined the bank. And all of a sudden they've got sales targets, they've got, you know, league tables, and it's like, this isn't what I joined for. And when I looked at the rail industry in particular within transport, um, which is where my intuition told me there was great opportunity, was that I felt that if we put everyone who worked in the rail industry in a big room and we said, put your hand up if you join the industry, in order to serve a customer, Yes. I don't think many hands would have gone up. And that's no criticism of the amazing people who work in the railway industry. It's just the way the industry was. You know, it started off with engineers who are, uh, super clever people who make it all happen, but they weren't ultimately doing it to get the passengers to get on board feeling happy. They were just, yeah, we're going to move them from A to B, but we're very interested in the rolling stock that we use to do that or the infrastructure that we need to put the rolling stock on top of in order to make it move. And. Yes. So I just felt like it was an industry that was ready for change.

Ann Rimmer: There was a job to do there.

Nina Lockwood: Ah, there was a job to do. And, um, I felt like from what I could see, that from a recruitment perspective, there was a lot of transactional stuff happening and I wanted to bring relationship into that, to move from a recruitment experience where it would be, have you got any jobs to tell me about your business? I remember distinctly, remember one really senior person in the rail industry, early doors, who I said, can I come and see you? Can I just have an hour of your time for you to tell me about your take on the industry? I'm learning, I know nothing. Can I come and see you? And he said to me, well, there's not much point, Nina, because I don't have any jobs for you. Well, that's the perfect time for me to come and see you because I don't know enough about the industry yet and I don't know enough about your business yet. When I know all of that, then I'd like to come and talk to you about how I can support you bringing talent into your business. So there was this kind of education piece and I think you do when you. And you know this, when it, when it's. When you're your own boss, there are huge number of benefits. It's a joy on most occasions. Um, but they're having that belief and the courage of your convictions to keep going. Yeah, is quite tough, especially when you've chosen to start in an industry where you don't know anybody and you don't know anything. So I really did have to kind of, um, trust the process and, um, believe in myself and keep, um, reminding myself that I, I do believe there's a different way of doing things. And although it did take me 10 months to raise my first invoice, so I really did have to hold on to the trust and to the belief, um, we haven't looked back since then.

Ann Rimmer: That's amazing.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah, I think the other thing as well, Ann, just to kind of finish off on the why Transport again, if we'd to go back to that image of everyone in the transport industry being in a big room, um, there wouldn't have been a queue for the ladies loo. I remember the first few events that I went to. I distinctly remember going to a, um, rail engineers event. Um, and the clue is in the title I guess, but a conference, a lunch actually, not a conference with a really, um, top level industry speaker. Um, and I walked up this amazing staircase at the Drapers hall in the City of London, this beautiful big staircase. And as I walked up I could see all these legs and every single leg was in trousers and um, flat black shoes. And it's like, oh my God, there are literally no women and there were no women at that event other than me and um, the women who were serving the lunch.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? So many industries like that. Because we did a lot in, in construction and aerospace and yeah, it's changed. Um, it has been slow to change and it is still changing. But I can't remember vividly dreams where I was the only woman.

Nina Lockwood: So this was 13 years ago. We have seen some change. Women in rail have done an amazing job, as have the operating companies, in doing loads of different initiatives that have been targeting women. Um, but for me in terms of why transport, I felt really strongly that this was another area that I could help with in terms of just turning that dialogue, um, in terms of diversity. Because whether you looked at the events you were going to, whether you looked at industry journals, whether even you look at the Twitter, if you looked at. I was on Twitter at the time with lots of other railway colleagues, very, very few women being part of the conversation. So I definitely had an ambition and, um, still do have an ambition to be part of making that change happen.

Ann Rimmer: Absolutely. So could we um, unpick a little bit some of these rules that you've broken? Because one that really stood out to me when you told me recently about it is that intuitive, um, the way that the team operates. You've never paid commission M. That is very unusual in the recruitment industry.

Nina Lockwood: It's definitely. Talk to me about that.

Ann Rimmer: And also, um, there's other things that you've got around not relying on a CV and having candidate chats and things like that.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah. So the no commission thing is an interesting one because. And, and to be honest, I have again another Conversation with another really good friend, um, my friend Georgina, who we work together in the Royal Bank. We had, um, a great walk one day. She lives down in Marlow. We walked up and down the Thames. And, um, at that point I was, I knew that I couldn't continue to work on my own. I needed somebody to come in and support me in the business because it was getting to the point where one person couldn't deal with it all effectively. And, um, what I was tying myself up in knots with was a commission scheme. How do commission schemes work? Um, how would I structure it? What would I do? And, uh, ultimately, I don't like the behaviors that commission schemes can bring out. I don't like the. Well, no, it's my candidate, it's my client. Um, I'm not telling you that. Or the biggest one, I guess, is people needing to get a sale over the line because they've got a target to hit. None of that works for me, you won't be surprised to hear. So I was having this conversation with Georgina and she said to me, but, Nina, I don't understand. You've done nothing else like a traditional recruitment agency, so why do you think you need to do that? And it was actually that statement from her that was like this big light bulb moment that was like, oh, my God, yeah, I don't have to do it like that, so how do I want to do it? And so the way that we work is that, um, everybody is, is paid a good level of basic salary. I appreciate my team hugely and I know that I couldn't do what I do without them. Um, the way that we get rewarded in terms of the work that we do and how good we are at it is a profit share bonus.

Ann Rimmer: Okay.

Nina Lockwood: And that is paid once a year. And it is based, not surprisingly, on the profit of the business, which everybody contributes to. And, um, that means the difference between, um, this kind of protectionist. No, it's, it's my job, it's my client, it's my candidate. To the point where many, many clients and candidates of intuitive will be able to tell you that they have dealt with all of us, they've had conversations with all of us at some point. But also when a new role comes in, instantly we are all suggesting people that we need to speak to. So there isn't this, it's mine. There is very much a. This is our business, we work as a team and we succeed together. So that probably is quite a big rule that I broke.

Ann Rimmer: In terms of recruitment, how does it work in terms of the individual. So you've not had issues if somebody's doing more placements than another individual. Just everybody pulls together. I mean, it is the perfect way to do it because actually all you're doing is you're all wrapping yourselves around the client and you're seeking to get the right solution for the. For the client, aren't you?

Nina Lockwood: Exactly.

Ann Rimmer: I've definitely, with my business in the past, fallen victim, I feel, to that, let's just get a bum on a seat and we get the fee. And, um, I've, um, also fallen victim to that very bum on that seat then being poached away by the same recruitment company not very long after.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: So I love that you've. You've come at this a different way and you've kind of thought about the outcome you're looking for rather than.

Nina Lockwood: Absolutely. There is. I think one of the major differences about how we work is that we genuinely care.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: So that's not just a, you know, a strap line on the website or whatever. It's. We, we genuinely care. And, um, the reason that we do is because we all understand completely clearly that what we do changes people's lives. So it, it's as simple as that.

Ann Rimmer: Anne.

Nina Lockwood: Um, because you know yourself, when you go into a new job, it's not just your life that changes. It's your, it's your families, it's your friends, it's your circles around you.

Ann Rimmer: Yes.

Nina Lockwood: If you're happy in the job that you're doing and you feel like you're around Peg in a round hole, then life is good. If you're in a job that you're not enjoying, then the opposite is true. Looking at it from a client perspective, if I have, um, I've got outputs I need to deliver, I've got performance that me and my team need to deliver. If I've got the right people in my team, then I've got a much better chance of delivering that performance. So also, it changes my life. So it really matters that we get this right. So if we were working an environment where people had to sell that person in to that client this month, because if I don't, I can't pay my bills because I'm not going to get the commission in my next month's pay packet that I need to get, it drives a different set of behaviors and that's. That doesn't work in my business. Um, so you don't have to accept a job in order for my team to get paid. And this still, it still blows people's minds. We still have candidates saying to the talent team, um, you know, oh yeah, I'm going to accept it, so don't worry, you'll get your commission. I know we won't because that's not how we work. But we share in the success of the business. Absolutely. So the only pressure that is on my team is to get it right for the candidate and um, for the client and probably in reality in that order. If I'm honest. 90% of the people that we have placed are still in their roles two years on, um, and um, beyond. So there's something about the way that we are doing this that works. And um, people stay.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: In the event that they don't, which very, very, very rarely happens, we have a 12 month guarantee. So if we place somebody with you and they leave within the first year, we will replace them free of charge for you. Because we believe that much in the, in the quality of the work that we do. So we're definitely not going to wait until a period of time has elapsed on the rebate and then come and take them out of your business and put, put them somewhere else. It's not how it works. We want them to stay with you. And the people who do stay, um, that 90% in terms of the retention figure, the majority of them have been promoted in that time as well. So we don't just see that they're still there, we see that they must be performing because if they weren't performing they wouldn't have been promoted, would they?

Ann Rimmer: Yes.

Nina Lockwood: So, so yes, doing the right thing, choosing the right people, um, and the way that we can do that is because, um, at the risk of repeating myself, we genuinely care. First and foremost, we care enough to be curious about the candidate, which is where the career conversations come in. So I know certainly from personal experience over the years then when I've been looking for a new role, I'll contact a recruiter and the recruiter would say, send us your cv. I will let you know if anything comes in.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: So you're just an anonymous piece of paper in the old days in a filing cabinet, but obviously now on a database. But the way that we approach that is to have a career conversation which is on teams. We talk to the candidate about their career history, to date, their skills, their experience and um, what they're looking for next, what really matters about your next move. And through doing that we're picking up clues and signs all the way through that conversation. Not just about, well, I've been here and I'VE done that and I've been here and I've done that. But why? What was the motivation? You can see when somebody's describing their career to you. You can tell which jobs they've really loved and which jobs they don't want to go back and do again. So we can dig a bit deeper about that. Tell me more about that role. Tell me more about this one. What did you like? What didn't you like? Um, so the career conversations really matter because they help us to understand, um, the candidate and their motivations and their aspirations equally. When we take on a new role with a client, we insist on a full job briefing. We can't do what we do just by reading a job description because that's like a cv, that's the black and white of a document we want. Glorious technicolour, please. We'd like to know, tell me about your existing team. What are your deliverables? What does this person need to bring with them to complement and add to the culture that you've already got? Okay, in 12 months time, if this person lands in your business and is successful, what will they have delivered? What do you want from them? Where will we find them? Give me some words to describe the personality or the character of that person. So again, getting curious about what's behind the job description, what's behind the CV and then having that, using our intuition to bring that together to say these are the round pegs to fit in the round holes.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, love that.

Nina Lockwood: Um, interview prep's a big one on. So again, in terms of what do we do in order to get people to a point where we've got the right people in front of the client. So we've done the career conversation, we've done the job briefing, we've then got a short list that we present. We don't do a long list because why is the client paying a fee if we're asking them to choose from 30 people? We will give five or six people, all of whom are technically capable of doing the job. The client makes the final decision in terms of out of those people who are the right people to bring forward and offer the role to. In order to get people to perform at their best, we, we do interview prep calls with them and I don't understand why any recruitment agency wouldn't do that. So we talk to them again about the job, the requirements, about the individuals that will be, um, leading that interview process, and we give them as much help and support as we can give them prior to the interview, including talking to them about why we think they are the right person to be in that interview process. So what have we seen in them? Yes, and to be honest, I'm on a right rant now, aren't I? But to be honest, I think that that is one of the reasons why we've been so successful in terms of our. The number of women that we've recruited into senior roles. So as at last December, which was the last time we did our, um, diversity statistics, 50% of the people that we have recruited into senior roles have been women. Amazing. The number of women in, in the rail industry, transport industry is slightly higher, but in rail it's 18.9%. I think we've got heady heights of 22, 23% in the transport as a whole. Um, so. So we're doubling up on that in terms of the representation.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: And I honestly think that the process that we go through, which supports people to be able to see what we see in them, um, rather than them reading a job description.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: And we know, because there's evidence out there, I think it was LinkedIn that did this research a few years ago. A man will read. We're sweeping generalization, so please accept where I'm coming from. A man will read a job description and there might be 10 things on there and if he can do five or six, three or four, he'll go for it.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: A woman will read the job description and needs to be ticking nine out of ten of those boxes, otherwise she thinks she can't do it.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: Now this was a few years ago. Things are developing and certainly we see it in our daughters, um, that, you know, things are changing in terms of, excuse me, in terms of confidence levels and, um, and ways that we approach things. But ultimately I think the way that we take people through a process is one of the reasons why we're able to submit a much more diverse shortlist to our clients.

Ann Rimmer: I find it quite amazing that. So you know, the customer, the client is paying the fee ultimately, when somebody is placed. And yet you are putting as much into the candidate as you are into the client.

Nina Lockwood: Absolutely.

Ann Rimmer: More actually, because it might be that for years you've been talking to this candidate, this person and getting to know them and progress, um, it with their career and watching them move and it may have been nothing to do with you, but you've just stayed with them.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: And then when there is finally a role that you feel is a, ah, perfect match for them and for the client's company, you then work with them to Help them be their best self when they're shortlisted and hopefully interviewed. Yeah, I find that it's so obvious some of the things that you're doing. But it's often the way, isn't it, in sectors where things have always been done that way. So we just carry on and we don't step back and think about a different way. Um, but ultimately what everybody's trying to do is put the right person into the right seat at uh, the right time.

Nina Lockwood: Absolutely.

Ann Rimmer: That's what you're doing.

Nina Lockwood: And when they get there, supporting them in terms of that onboarding process too, that's remarkable.

Ann Rimmer: Talk to us about that because you've got this 90 day process.

Nina Lockwood: The program is called 90 Day Accelerator and it was developed by um, my good friend Laurent Bouvier, who is the founder and director of Metis Blue, a leadership consultancy. Now to be fair to Laurent, um, we did have quite a lengthy courtship. So Laurent had heard about me. He'd been doing some work with one of the transport owning groups and um, he'd heard about me and my business and how I work and contacted me to suggest that this might be a way that we could work together which would support my clients and candidates, um, um, and give us more, even more um, differentiator from what other people were doing.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: So I am very protective of the reputation of my business and although I liked him immediately, it did take me a few months and I'm sure um, if I was to ask him, I bet, bless him, he was quite frustrated with me at times because it was like, can we just get on with it? And um, we did get on with it eventually and three years on we've got a fantastic working partnership. Um, he's a very wise person. He's exceptionally good at what he does around the leadership coaching as uh, are his team. So he has a team of people who work with him to deliver the coaching. And so how that manifests itself within intuitive is that when we are placing somebody into an executive level position they will qualify for the 90 day accelerator program that we include. We don't charge extra for, so nobody pays for it other than me. Because we believe so strongly that the work that Laurent and his team do to help that individual to navigate the first 90 days in their new executive role is so important and so positive in terms of helping them to hit the ground running, to perform quicker, to settle in quicker. Um, so they get, it's a one to one independent coaching program, um, that they're worked with for the first 90 days. It enhances it doesn't replace. It enhances the client's onboarding program. And um, it gives them a sounding board. It gives them a safe space to kind of like, this is, this is how I'm feeling. This is what I'm thinking. Talking things through with an independent person, um, to help them make decisions that need to be made and improves their confidence as well in terms of, um, being able to settle in quicker and perform quicker. So I'm super proud of that. And the feedback that we've had from the candidates that have been through it has been incredible. And also from the client organizations that have taken part. Um, and it's been so positive. I'm over the moon with it.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, love that. Because it just all adds to that success rate and making sure that every party is um, benefiting from it as well, doesn't it? So.

Nina Lockwood: Absolutely.

Ann Rimmer: Partnerships are, um, often overlooked and they are a great way of adding value to your clients. But as you've demonstrated there, uh, it's a risk, isn't it? And you've got to be super confident that you've got the right partner on board to do it.

Nina Lockwood: Absolutely.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah. Your brand reputation is, isn't it?

Nina Lockwood: Values just have to be aligned, don't they? And um, you sense fairly quickly whether they are or they aren't. Yeah, but it's. Yeah, it was the. It did. Um, I'm, I'm so glad we had every conversation we had before we then decided to, to jump ahead and do it. But we. So Laurent and I hosted a leadership roundtable dinner last October. And um, um. So we had 20 industry leaders, um, around a dining table and had a really super session with um, Tom Cheese Wright. Who's the, um, you, you know, I know, you know, who is, um, an applied futurist, which I think is one of the best job titles I've ever heard. Came and just gave us some, some kind of food for thought. We discussed around the table, um, how that applied to the transport industry. It was such a brilliant night. But what stood out for me more than anything was how working with Lauren and as a partnership just works so beautifully. And as a small business having, it's kind of an extended team, um, that we work with who are completely aligned to the way that we work and we can trust completely with our clients, with our candidates and um, with our reputation.

Ann Rimmer: Competing in B2B today can be tough, especially in complex or established sectors where everyone sounds the same at, uh, propelled. We help businesses break out of that sameness by grounding strategy in deep customer insight. We capture the voice of the customer to uncover real needs, real decision drivers and real opportunities. Then we use that knowledge to build a clear, differentiated brand position. The result? Better conversations, stronger leads and greater pricing power. Yeah. Which leads me, lovely, onto the team, actually, because you talk there about being a small business and I know you often describe it as a boutique recruitment business.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: Um, so the things that kind of stood out to me, again, that are different, um, you're fully remote. And as far as I know, you've always had a fully remote. You never had an office. Talk to me about why you chose to do that and how on earth you've managed to curate a team who do things the intuitive way and, um, do that remotely. You know, how have you created but maintain that culture as well.

Nina Lockwood: So it definitely, it definitely works for us. But I, I do recognize it doesn't work for everybody. And, um, I, um, think in terms of why in the first place. Well, ultimately, because it was only ever going to be me. My m. Plans for this business was that it would be me and I had no, I honestly had no intention of ever growing a team. I just was going to do what I love doing, which was to talk to clients about their, um, talent acquisition needs and then I would go and acquire the talent that they need and that's what I would do. And I love it. I love that part of what I do. So I didn't need an office because it was just me. So I've got a shed in the back garden and that's where I. It was called the hen house, um, because they used to keep. The previous owners, kept the hens in it. Um, we did clean it out. We made it look pretty. Um, I worked out there. Now, my first member of my team, uh, Gainer, when she had worked with Gaynor in a, In a previous business, um, albeit quite briefly. Gaynor's sons were really young at the time and so she had school drop off, she had school pickup, um, she had school holidays to navigate. And so for her, having to go into an office was going to use up a load of time that wasn't productive time or positive time. So it just made sense. She was happy to work from home. And, um, so that's what we did. Um, and then each person that joined the business after that was happy to work from home. We definitely, there have been a couple of occasions where people have acknowledged it's not for me. Um, and I, um, think I'm really lucky because I do need other people's energy. Personally, I do need that. But I'm out and about quite a lot. So I get that. When I'm at conferences, out and about, meeting clients, meeting candidates, I'm getting that. So I always do say to the team I'm very, very happy for them to attend events. I love it when the talent team go out and are amongst our clients and candidates at different industry events. But we also, every six weeks we are together, we spend a full day together in Manchester and reconnect in that way. We're together every Monday morning on a teams call. And um, that isn't just a right, let's look at the numbers and let's do all that stuff. We always start with a. The conversation that we would have if we were in the kitchen, in an office waiting for the kettle to boil. We have on our teams meeting on a Monday morning. So what did you do at the weekend? Yeah, um, so we, and we've also, it won't surprise you to hear we've got a very active WhatsApp group as well. So we are in touch. The communication is there. Ah, but I've also, I'm so lucky because I've got people in my team who thrive with the autonomy that that gives them m to plan their own day, to work in the way that works best for them to. So that they, they self manage, you know, as far as I'm concerned, as long as the delivery happens, I don't mind when you do it. You can be flexible. So we've still got. Although Gaynor's boys are both at university now so um, so she doesn't need to worry about school drop off and pick up but Lisa does. So Lisa's got um, children at school, she's got flexibility, um, that she really enjoys and we're all grown ups on at the end of the day, aren't we? So we get on with it. We know what we need to do and we get on with it. I think in terms of how do we. How do you distill that kind of intuitive way? It's a really difficult question and I think ultimately it comes down to the fact I've got the right people in my team and um, you would hope so, wouldn't you? Bear in mind this is what I'm

Ann Rimmer: thinking, job of selection, haven't you?

Nina Lockwood: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: So I do think you're the kind of person who puts a lot of energy and time and you're very open. So I suspect when you come together regularly as, as a team that you do a very good job of imparting how Intuitive do things, why you do it that uh, way, why that matters and sharing all of the experience of doing that. But I'm guessing you must have good processes as well, do you?

Nina Lockwood: We do. Um, although that's an interesting one in itself because, um, the name of the business came from a conversation, obviously 13 plus years ago now, where I knew I was setting a business up, but I didn't know what to call it. I didn't want to use my own name, I wanted something else, but I had no clue what to call it. I was having a conversation one day with somebody and I said, said I can't process map what I do. It's intuitive. That's where it comes from. Obviously, when it was just me, then that's easier not to have a process written down. And I am not a write it down kind of girl. I'm just, you know, we, I now thankfully have other people in the team who are much more capable than I am of making sure that there is a documented process and a way of working. I've had input into all of that. So we know when we do a career conversation, when we do a job briefing, when we do an interview prep, we know that there are things that information that we need to get, questions we need to ask is not a script at all. Um, and I just wouldn't dream of doing that. Everybody brings themselves to the process, but yes, we, and it's all very simple. There is nothing complicated about this business. The just the most important thing is to remember we're dealing with people so they should never feel like a commodity that's moving through a process.

Ann Rimmer: Right.

Nina Lockwood: But I think, I genuinely think that I do have an ability to give a vision, share a vision with the team of what I want the business to look like and how I want people to feel when they've had any type of interaction with intuitive, you know, stuff around doing the right thing. We will have, for example, we might be on LinkedIn, which we do a lot of, and um, I might see, or any member of the team might see a job advertised and that M advert might trigger like, oh, I've just spoken to somebody three weeks ago. That job would be great for them. So we will tell them about that job.

Ann Rimmer: Right.

Nina Lockwood: Because why wouldn't we?

Ann Rimmer: Yes.

Nina Lockwood: What we're in it for is that that person gets a job. Obviously we would love to do all of the recruitment right across the industry. Um, but we can't. That's never going to happen. So points I'm posting people is doing the right Thing. So it's looking for opportunities to do the right thing is important. But I honestly think that the team that I've got understand that they are the custodians of the brand of Intuitive and everything that stands for and our reputation. And they're as proud of it and um, as protective of it as I am.

Ann Rimmer: Yes, definitely. I think you're all aligned and I think it's just testament to matching the right people with the right organization so they can use their own intuition in the right way. That's, that's how the business is flowing, isn't it? So I'm thinking, as you're talking to me today, that you must hold on to clients really well, you must have really good, strong relationships. You're placing candidates that stay, um, and you're supporting those candidates to make sure that they're embedding into the business in the right way. But what I see from a lot of companies that I work with increasingly is they either see recruitment just as a cost, they have bad experiences with recruiters and um, they don't want to go there. So they're actually choosing and opting to do their own recruitment and having all kinds of. Well, we all know that actually people is the number one challenge for any business today. Um, so talk to me about that. And if a client was going to consider investing in recruitment and not do it themselves or do it themselves alongside a recruiter, why would they do that with Intuitive? And why is it worth paying that fee, whatever that fee might be?

Nina Lockwood: Um, so I think the um. Do you know the optimum for me, Anne, is that a client organization would call it an investment rather than a cost because that's genuinely what it is. I don't know. I'm sure if we ask ChatGPT, um, it would tell us what is the cost of a bad hire? What is the cost of getting it wrong? So getting it right is kind of, is the opposite of this. It's investing in a process with, with a partner who is going to help you get it right.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: So in terms of the process that we go through and the value that we bring, which would be over and above a client advertising it, for example, on um, LinkedIn and um, or, and I would hope both, advertising it on their own company website, on their jobs page, on their careers page, um, doing both of those things is going to attract candidates, applicants for that role. I had a conversation with a client last week about a more of a kind of um, uh, a middle management type of role. And he said to me so we, we work on the kind of the senior end into the executive level. But I was. I was chatting to, um, to the client around. They'd put an advert out on LinkedIn and they'd put it on their company website. And he said, I've had 45 applications, Nina, but the quality just isn't there. There's a couple of people that look interesting, but the quality just isn't there. Ah, yeah. Um, it's not really what they're not really people who, who I'm. Who are exciting me are not coming through. So I was really surprised when I pointed it out to him that he hadn't thought. Hadn't thought of this, but I thought, well, no, it's my job to think this through. I guess. If you, as a transport company, if you're going to post on LinkedIn, first of all, we have to remember that a tiny, tiny percentage of your connections will see your posts.

Ann Rimmer: Yes.

Nina Lockwood: So I think people are under the illusion that every time they put a post out, every single person who is connected to them sees that post. They don't LinkedIn decide which ones you're going to see. Um, and, um, I've got beyond trying to work out those algorithms. I just post what I want, when I want to, um, and leave it in the lap of the gods in terms of who sees it. So a very, very small percentage of people will see your LinkedIn advert.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: The people that will see it will be the people that are connected to you or connected to someone else. Usually in the majority of cases, in the transport industry, the people that are looking at your website are people who are in the transport industry or potentially interested in, and therefore kind of, you know, having a look. But that's the minority as an industry. We are on a journey to changing the image so that we do attract more people, but we're not there yet. So there are lots of other industries where people will look first before they look at transport, because there's not the level of understanding that we need in terms of what an amazing sector it is to work in. So the investment in a recruitment service is around passive candidates. So there are people who are currently doing an amazing job who are not actively looking for a new one. Our job is to go and find them, to interest them in a role with your organisation and they may say no on, um, and that's fine, but we will go and ask the question. And I think because of the reputation we've got and the reach that we've built in terms of our Community. We get the majority of people, when we reach out, they do reply. So we get a really good response rate from passive candidates. Yes, we have thousands of hours more interviewing experience than a client can possibly have, and that's because that's our job. It's not your job. Whatever job you're doing, whether you're running a train operating company or a bus business or, uh, you know, a port or an airport, your job is not to interview people. It's our job. So we've got. Because we've got more experience, we are very good at, uh, what we do and very good at identifying the right people. We build that community that we have. We've made a complete, focused effort, conscious effort over the last 13 years to build the community in underrepresented communities. Not just going to people who work in transport, we're going to people who work in different industry sectors, we're going to underrepresented communities. In terms of working with, um, she leads for Legacy as an example, you know, networking, building connections with different industry sectors with different communities. Within that, um, the employer value proposition is also a big one. Ah. Because as a representative of the client organization, we are, again, we've always done it the same way. We're very warts and all. And, um, so we don't, we don't sell it. We don't sell this opportunity to work with this business. That's the best employer you're ever going to have. Yeah, we understand the organization and we talk to the candidates about all of the upsides, the benefits of working here, but also the areas that we're aware of that might present more of a challenge. So we're very honest around what the opportunity is and what the difficult things might be. Um, so that's something which I think candidates would trust us to do and maybe they wouldn't get the same through a direct recruitment process.

Ann Rimmer: Now, I can see that. Yeah. So you don't have a situation where clients think that what they're buying is your black book process going through and the value you're adding.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah, we, we do, uh, we have a chuckle about this. And, um, because it sometimes does feel like, why am I. It's money for all rope this fee. Because all you want to do, you've got a book it down, you know, down at the side of your desk and it's full of cvs and, and you're just going to pull one out and say, you go, no. Um, we have an amazing community of people and the talent team are brilliant at, um, knowing People, because we've been through career conversations with them. So we know what they look like, we know what they sound like, we know what they've done because we remember it. So we have a community of people that we can go to, but we. No, you're not buying a list. Your fee doesn't buy you a list, your fee buys you goodness knows how many years. If we combine the experience of the team, you're buying a lot of years experience of, um, searching for candidates, active candidates and, um, passive candidates, looking at different industry sectors, considering different skill sets that might be applicable, that can be transferable into that role. However, many thousands of hours of interview experience, a reputation that means that people will take our call and the service that comes behind that, uh, that says we're partnering with you, we're partnering with you, rather than supplying you with a commodity. And, um, 90% of people will still be with you in two years. So there's your return on your investment.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, no, it's such, uh, in all service businesses and definitely where consultancy is involved or advisory, it's such a difficult sell sometimes to really educate on what it is that you're bringing and everything that goes into decades, often of experience and knowledge and wisdom. So that leads me into the marketing because my kind of view of, um, intuitive and my impression of the business really has come from obviously knowing you, but also LinkedIn, because you're prolific on LinkedIn and you've created your own podcast. Um, but what from a marketing perspective, because obviously you're a small business, you not have huge budgets to spend on marketing. What have you invested in, in marketing that you found has really worked the best for you?

Nina Lockwood: So I think ultimately we deliver. So the reputation of the business has grown because we do what we say we're going to do and we deliver what we said we were going to deliver. So I think you can spend as much as you want on marketing, but if you're not actually, actually providing the service that you're talking about, then you know what a waste of money that was. Um, we are very active on, uh, on socials. So from a LinkedIn perspective, it wasn't something that I used to use very much at all. Um, six years ago, uh, during the heady days of summer 2020, I was sat on my own in my shed and um, I was, uh, the first half hour of every day I would spend on LinkedIn.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: And, um, so we're in lockdown, nobody's allowed out. But I was getting my fix of people by seeing what was Coming through on the LinkedIn timeline. And at that time people didn't really didn't do videos and all of a sudden this guy appeared on the screen, um, this mad, mad curly hair and um, had clearly just finished a run and he was doing a video with just kind of on his phone and I was, who the heck's this and what is he on about? It was James Osborne who is co founder of the Recruitment network. And um, James gave me that day in that video, which was about a minute long, he gave me the hope, the message I needed to hear was that everything will be fine. So as a recruitment business in a lockdown in the transport industry, flipping heck, you know, you've really got to hang on to the belief there and um, that everything will be all right. James talked about a V shaped recovery, talked about all the reasons why he thought that once the bounce back happened it would be worth hanging around for. I needed to hear that that day I contacted James, connected with him, had my first conversation with him on 14th July 2020. So it is a, it is a date that is ingrained in my head and always will be, um, because that for me was a massive turning point, that conversation with James on many, many levels. But one of the things he said to me was, Nina, your business is great, your clients love you, your candidates enjoy working with you. Nobody knows you're the best kept secret. You whispering about it, shout, be noisy. I, uh, want you to be noisy on LinkedIn. And I'm like, oh my God, what does that mean? Right, you need to do videos on M. Like absolutely not. No, I'm not doing a video. Anyway, here we are. So I remember when the team came back after, um, they'd been on furlough for a period of time, they came back and I relayed this to them that, right, we're doing videos now. Oh my God. Gaynor's face was an absolute picture. But bless them, they all did it, they all got involved and they all did it. And we've, you've kind of refine things over time but we share what we think is going to interest our audience. Yeah, we do it on a regular basis and um, we, we genuinely again are uh, interested in connecting people through talking about who we are, how we do it and hopefully giving some knowledge, sharing some knowledge at the same time. Yeah, so LinkedIn has been good. The other part, I guess to the, to the um, getting the brand out there, the profile out there, uh, is that I've always attended industry conferences. Um, and yes, of Course, that's to network and build connections, but it's about building knowledge, it's understanding what's going on in the industry, where the pain points are, what's coming up, what are the challenges. Um, also being out and about. People start to recognise you. So you're not just somebody who sits behind a LinkedIn post.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: Or behind a website. You're a real person and they can get to know you and what you're all about. Um, we have had some brilliant support from experts in the creative industries. So we've had gorgeous help from, uh, from our friend Claire, who helped us in 2021 put our brand wheel together and understand who we were and what we were all about. We've had amazing support from Helen and Toby and their team at workshop marketing support from you with your brand, your strategic brand expert take on things. So I am very, very, very open to seeking advice from the experts. Um, and using that advice then to help me understand what's the best way of getting our brand out there, keeping our profile out there and letting people know who we are.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, because I think you've managed to create a very personable brand, which is who intuitive. Everything we've talked about today, that's, that's what it's about. Um, so I think owning that. And, you know, some businesses think that they can't do marketing, but actually you can do marketing. You've just. Once you've understood who you are and what you stand for, you just need to tell the world about your thoughts, your beliefs and everything that you stand for. Um, and people will listen and connect. So I think yours is a really good example, um, of how to do it and to do it well. Um, so the last but one question, um, I know that you're looking to, and have begun expanding from. So you've done an awful lot in rail and in bus, but you've also gone recently into ports and you're starting to go into aerospace as well. So this kind of transport world is still your world. Um, I suppose that really what I'm thinking about is how do you decide where your model will work? Because even though they come under that umbrella of transportation, transport, they will each be very different and have their own challenges and needs. How have you decided on those sectors?

Nina Lockwood: Do you know? You'd be really surprised, I think, Ann, to know how much similarity sits beneath the surface. Um, so a case in point. I was at the Passenger Terminal Expo at the XL a couple of weeks ago and one of the speakers, um, really fascinating speaker panel. So this is a three day exhibition, it's a global exhibition. So there's international representation from airports from around the world and um, there's a conference program that sits alongside the exhibition. The final speaker session that I went to, um, one of the speakers was the chief exec of um, Los Angeles of lax and he was talking about the challenges that they're having around talent, attraction. And um, um, what I found really interesting was that the example he shared was that when we speak to people about a career in aviation, so often people will say, um, I don't want to be a pilot. Or they might say my eyesight's not good enough.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: Now if I say to my daughter's peer group, for example, if I'm talking to people about a career in rail, but I don't want to be a train driver.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Nina Lockwood: There's a perception of an industry. Now I was really surprised when John's made this comment because aviation, oh my God. You know, that's a, that's a really sexy industry, isn't it? It's like, it's, it's exciting. We see them strutting through the airport with the smart uniforms, pulling their little bag behind them. It looks exciting but there's so much more to an industry sector than the, the people that you see on the front line. So I was having this conversation with somebody yesterday actually. Is it any conversation. Ah, sorry. Any career that you want to have, you can have in, in transport we were struggling. We were. This was a conversation specifically about rail actually. Um, but we were struggling to find out vet. But we got there in the end in terms of British Transport Police and um, the dogs that they use. But you, any, any career you want, you can do it in public transport. Whether that's marketing, whether it's hr, whether it's, it's legal, whether it's accountancy, whatever it is, digital transformation, everything you can do everything. Because it all sits behind the people who deliver the service. So in terms of those different sectors, they're all going through change and um, when you have significant change, you often need a change of leadership, different leadership to get you through the transformation. That's where we help. They've all got issues with diversity and um, not just in relation to gender but also in terms of um, ethnicity, people in senior level roles, um, with disability, with neurodiversity, but also with bringing people in from other industry sectors. 54% of the people that we've placed have been from outside of the transport industry. So they're bringing diversity of thought A different perspective, different ways of doing things. And um, there is a huge opportunity for knowledge transfer. So the candidate community that we have built over the last 13 years and beyond, actually that we brought with us, they've got transferable skills so they could work in any one of those industry sectors and um, bring the best practice, the knowledge and the experience that they've built into, uh, to benefit a new client organization.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, fascinating. So it, there's a lot of similarities then across all of them. Uh, so that's, that's incredible conversation. I'm gonna have to kind of go to our last question.

Nina Lockwood: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: Um, which is for a founder or senior leader listening. What's the one piece of advice you'd give if they want to stand out with their business? They want to differentiate, um, they want to be the one that companies choose. What would you say would be the best piece of advice?

Nina Lockwood: The learning of. The first thing that jumps into my head, Anne, um, is keep going. So keep believing, keep going. Have the courage of your conviction. So that for me is definitely the having the resilience, persistence, tenacity, all of those good things. If you're going to, if you're going to set a business up, those are the things that you need in spades.

Ann Rimmer: Absolutely.

Nina Lockwood: Um, being yourself, being authentic because it's bloody hard work and exhausting trying to be something else. So, um, so be yourself, um, would be another one. And I guess overriding all of this is understanding your why, why are you doing it? And um, getting to just ask, keep, you'll come up with an answer and yes, but why? So my 3 year old grandson is, is an expert at this at the moment because every single thing. But why, but why? Keep going. Dig deeper, dig deeper. Why are you doing this? Um, and find your personal reason for it because that is what will keep you going when you keep coming back to that. Um, I believed that there was a different way of doing things where all three parties in this recruitment relationship felt good about the, the process they were going through and the outcome that we got. I felt so strongly that there was a way of doing this with a different type of leadership and a different way of working that relies on trusting people to do their job and do the right thing and you could still make a good living out of it.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Uh, yeah, it's just been a fantastic conversation. Everything that you've talked about I think resonates definitely with me. The fact that you've clearly understood what you love doing, that you're actually good at doing and that business is needed in the first place. It's driven that purpose which has kept you going. And we all need to do that. We don't. You know, you never know what's around the corner. And it can be very, very tough running a business, can't it? Especially when you're doing it alone. We've both done that. But I also love the conversations we've had about doing the right thing. And I think that's come through really strongly today for me, that the decisions and, um, the processes and the way you do things intuitive is very much about doing the right thing. Um, and I absolutely love that you've smashed that commission out the way and you doing it in a completely fresh way that's obviously working. So thank you so much for sharing that story with me and time and, um, let's see what the next 12 months bring us in all of these new sectors.

Nina Lockwood: Thank you so much, Anne. Um, your questions were brilliant. So you've made it really easy for me and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Um, so huge thanks from me.

Ann Rimmer: Brilliant.