Conor Heaney’s unexpected evolution of the eyewear industry

Ann Rimmer: Welcome to episode three of the Real B2B Brand Stories podcast. I'm Ann, um Rimmer, founder and chief brand strategist at uh Propelled Propeld, specialize in brand positioning for B2B companies. So episode three features Connor Heaney, MD, of Jones and Co styling opticians and the Optical Success Academy. And I've been buying my glasses From Jones Co. For many years and have experienced firsthand how they've differentiated. By curating a small collection of distinctive frames alongside a very personalised shopping experience. Connor will share how he's focused on doing things differently and how that has shaped a business with empathy for spectacle wearers like me. What I really love about Connor's story is how he's managed to balance the life he wants to live alongside growing a business that is relentlessly focused on delivering world class standards. Connor will talk about adding a B2B business with the Optical Success Academy where he and his team are openly sharing all of their learnings and successes with other independent opticians so that they can learn from Jones and Co and hopefully compete against the multiple chains and build profitable repeatable sales. Competing in an entirely unique way in this sector that is dominated by volume. Conor shares his thoughts on physical marketing over digital and how he's used values to shape and guide his team so the business functions well without him, which I know is something that many of us are striving to achieve. There's so much to take away from this episode for leaders, founders alike, for small, medium and large organisations. And I'm happy to say by the end of this podcast you'll also understand why I believe pricing is such a key part of any brand positioning strategy. Without further ado, we'll get into it and as always, I look forward to your feedback and comments. Good morning. Thank you for joining me. Good morning, Good morning. And really, I thought the starting point would be really good to just, um, tell us a little bit about Jones and Co and how you started the business. What kind of led you to become a business owner?

Conor Heaney: Uh, okay, yeah, happy to do that. And I know you just mentioned a moment ago that you've been coming, uh, to Jones and company for. I don't know, that must be in the 90s when you thought as the previous iteration of Angela Campbell Opticians. So the business has been going longer than I've been the owner. Um, so my story is I'm from Ireland originally and I came to Manchester to study optometry and become an optometrist at UMIST in Manchester. And I can still Remember probably was the first weekend I'd landed in Manchester, never been to Manchester before, and got the bus. My parents loved me that much. They put me on the bus and the ferry to my new, um, life as a student. But I remember walking around because I was studying optometry, walking around to see what opticians were in Manchester. And um, and I remember it was Angela Campbell at the time in this big grand building, the bank of England building on King Street. Uh, and I wouldn't even walk in. It looked too intimidating and too posh. Um, so it's funny to look back now and see that actually I own that business. So initially I was just interested in optometry and being an optometrist as a nice profession, nice way to earn a living. And you're working with people, uh, you're dealing with science. There's a little bit of the style and fashion side going on the retail. So I thought it kind of, it sounded like a nice career. Um, and so I went through university and did my professional qualifying exams. And then my first job was with Specsavers in Derby. And after about six months, uh, in spec saversavers is obviously very high volume. You're getting people in and out every 20 minutes. After six months of that I was like, there must be more to life than just churning out 25 rapid fire eye exams a day. Um, and that was when, uh, a couple of friends from university we decided to head off to Australia and work out there as optometrists and travel around a bit. And it was there I just went along to a couple of seminars and got into personal development a little bit and kind of started to get these seeds up. Actually maybe I could open my own practice and do things a little bit differently. Um, so came back to Manchester and opened, opened our first practice then, uh, at that point and just loved the whole aspect of everything that goes along with running, running a business. So that was kind of the journey or how it got started.

Ann Rimmer: That's very, very brave, isn't it? I mean I was, I think I was 29 when I started my first business. And for me I just didn't know what was ahead of me. So I wasn't brave, I just was naive. Yeah.

Conor Heaney: And I think sometimes that's helpful in the beginning if you, if you knew all the challenges and things that lie ahead, you might not, you know, you would probably overthink it. I think that's a good thing about being young is you're like, yeah, why not give it a try? What's the Worst can happen.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Conor Heaney: Um, but, yeah, I think, had you

Ann Rimmer: seen that you wanted to change? Obviously you'd had this experience with Spec Savers and it felt very much like it was just volume driven more and the same. But from a personal experience with Jones and Company, I think you very much focused on the customer experience. And, um, at times you've almost taken the, um, that. That awful part of buying glasses, which is trying to choose which one suits you. And it's so difficult. And particularly if, like me, you've got a strong prescription, you put a frame on with no prescription and you can't see yourself anyway. Yeah, um, you've completely changed that experience for the customer and you've made it much more empowering. So what drove you to go down that route and do it so differently?

Conor Heaney: Um, I think it was in the beginning it was just a vague idea of, uh, you know, it could be something interesting and fun, uh, to do. And I did it with my business partner at the time, Tarek, who's another optometrist and a friend. So in the beginning it was just, let's explore. So we went. We started before we'd even opened our first practice. We went to, well, we did research, and we found out there was a trade show in Paris where, uh, all the biggest eyewear designers released their new ranges. And there was a trade show in Milan and a trade show in Munich. So we were going to these, uh, cities and, um, these trade shows and exploring, you know, what's possible. Um, and when we traveled as well, uh, it was a really good opportunity, if. I don't know if you remember. Well, you probably will if you've been wearing glasses a long time. But in the uk, eyewear used to be really dull and boring and just plain and rectangular. And then anytime you go to France or Italy, people are wearing interesting, colorful frames. So that for us was a starting point. It was like, well, all these people look amazing in their glasses. They obviously enjoy wearing glasses. But in the uk, there's not really much of that choice available. So what about if we just open a practice where we bring in frames that people would actually enjoy wearing? Um, so that was the starting point of it. And then when we were traveling, we also just paid attention to what are all the little opticians in Paris and Milan and places like that doing? And that give us an idea of. This is much more of a kind of retail experience. It's not just a clinical medical thing. Obviously, that's part of it. But there's also. How does somebody want to feel in their glasses. So that gives us ideas about the style and the style of the practice. But it was only then when we opened it and started doing it. For me, I'd never worn glasses, um, at that point, but for me, it was really just. That was when I really got an understanding for what it's like, what people struggle with when it comes to glasses. And I literally just listened to what people were saying all day. You know, I've been. People would tell us they've been looking for glasses for, you know, weeks. They've been to seven places and they can't find anything they like. People would say the rows and rows and rows of glasses all start to look the same. Are these men's frames or these women's frames? What's the best shape for my face? Um, people just really struggled with choosing glasses. And it's, it's. I think glasses is a very personal. It's a very personal thing, choosing glasses. Because for you, as you mentioned, if you, with your prescription, if you take your glasses off and put on a random frame, you can't even see yourself. Uh, and like, everybody has a lot of depending on your prescription. And when you started wearing glasses, everybody has very individual requirements and very individual feelings around what it means to wear glasses. So for me, it was about, okay, how do we make this a really individual experience where we can tailor everything to the individual person that's in front of us and not just a one size fits all, get them in and get them out approach. Um, and then from there we were just able to refine it and to the point where we changed, I think, uh, well, we just changed so many things almost. That was the principle, which I think is a good business principle for anybody listening is be different. Whatever the norm is. Well, don't do that. Do something different. And ideally do it different in a way that is actually purpose driven and there's a reason for it. So we don't have really many flames on display at Jones Co1 because it differentiates us and it, and it forces people to, you know, we engage and we have a conversation and we can help them. Um, but the main reason is having rows and rows of frames that all kind of blend into each other doesn't help people. Nobody ever comes in and picks a frame and says, yeah, I'll have that one, please. They need help, they need guidance. And. Yeah, and I think just even if you look at what other retailers do, I think another principle that's always guided me is learning lessons from other industries and applying Them to, um, your industry. So if you look at what a high end jeweler does or a high end watch shop, they don't just throw them all out in front of you and like they're carefully selecting one or two at a time and they're, you know, they're making everything feel more special. And um, so, yeah, so we paid attention to what are, you know, other successful high end retailers doing, what are, you know, the best hotels in the world doing, what are, what are Michelin star restaurants doing? And taking little bits and pieces from anywhere we could find and uh, making it part of the experience that we offered in a goal to offer the, what we call an effortless eyewear experience. So coming in to choose classes that Jones and Coast should feel effortless, it should be enjoyable. It should feel like an experience, um, where you're in control as an individual, but it's not difficult for the client.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah. And I think a big part of that, um, again speaking from personal experience, is your team. So I tend to, um, work with Gareth, but I have also, um, had the experience of Jessica and then, you know, whoever is on reception at the time, the way that they offer you a coffee, yeah, coffee that you want to drink, it's good quality coffee.

Conor Heaney: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: Um, you feel like a little bit like you're in an art gallery. You know, I think that the way you create the frames and display them, that they feel special and you feel, you know, you're somewhere that values design and values aesthetic and doing things right. Um, but I think for me it is about how you've managed to really grow and develop that team, both individually and as a team. You must have put a lot of effort into that. So talk to me about how you growing the team and really getting them to deliver that experience when you're not there.

Conor Heaney: Yeah. Um, so, yeah, I think I've done a good job with that. Uh, it's probably also the reason I don't have much hair left. But I think for me, I don't see myself as like somebody that's, you know, really motivating or inspiring in any way. For me, I'm just like Mr. Pragmatic. So, uh, like I try, I take a very logical approach. So for me it was uh, like explaining the business plan to the team would be, these are the things that people don't like, the clients don't like about choosing glasses. These are the things that they do like. So let's do the things that they do like and let's not do the thing. So I would Kind of try and help the team understand why we're doing this and what, you know, just through talking with them, help them get a sense of vision, of the vision for what we're trying to do and why it matters. And like, or, you know, someone that wears glasses every day and has done for most of their lives, uh, choosing glasses can be a big decision. It can be a little bit, you know, difficult at times and people can be sometimes self conscious or people, uh, the glasses can cost a lot of money. So they don't want to make a mistake, they want to get it right. And they're, you know, it's right in the middle of your face. So people feel that it kind of has a big impact in terms of how people perceive them. So we uh, would just talk about these things to help the team understand why we're doing what we do, rather than just telling them, this is what I want to do, please do that. So I always try and engage them in the discussion of why. Um, and then the other pragmatic thing was for me, knowing that there's so many things that we want to do that I can't do myself. So I can't do this, I can't do everything. So therefore the only option is I need to build a team. So therefore I need to invest the time. You know, the weekly meetings that we've been doing for 15 years, the, you know, not being afraid to close the practice for a day and plan the year, or if we feel something really needs a bit of focus and attention, we'll close for a day and do training. And I've always seen that as a good investment of my time. Um, and, and then the other, the other kind of, in terms of how the team operate without me there, uh, we have processes and things like that obviously. Um, but I think our core values have been the uh, kind of thing that's kind of guided us throughout all of that. Um, so that was something I read a book years ago called Delivering Happiness by a guy called Tony Hsieh, who, um, he's since passed away, but he, he started a company called Zappos, which was a shoe company, an online shoe company. And they were known for this over the top customer experience and customer service. Um, but it was in that book that was probably where I first came across the concept of core values in a way of an entrepreneurial company that used them and um, made it their own. Um, so we created our core values. Um, and what I liked about that was anytime the team would come to me to Ask me what to do in any situation. Really. All I was saying was, well, these are the things that I value. These are the things that I think is most important. So present me with any problem and I'm going to kind of mentally go through these core values and try and find what's the best way forward. So I think the core values are a way to help your team, uh, realize that they can solve problems, a lot of problems, by themselves, with their own initiative. Um, just by consulting the core values and then saying, okay, well, if these are the most important things, what do

Ann Rimmer: you think you should do? Um, you've used, sorry, Connie. You've used the kind of, You've had that clear vision and values set out, and you've used those to help, I suppose, help guide the team into how they make decisions and behaviors. Is that right?

Conor Heaney: Yes. Not on day one. Um, there was a sense of why we're doing what we do. There was a sense of purpose from the very beginning. But in terms of putting it into words, um, that probably came later. Um, but the core values probably came before a super clear vision that's mapped out and stuff like that. But I think the values are just so practical that, um, uh, that's been the most important thing. And the four values we use, number one is deliver. Wow. So whatever we're trying to do for a client is like, deliver. Wow. So, um, if people understand that that's what we want, then it solves so many problems and gets over so many hurdles and excuses. And, um, it allows the team to deliver a better experience. The second one is, ah, team ship or be a team. Which is basically, again, I know how important my team is. So we all need to come together and work as a team. It can't be, you know, we can't have a team that's negative and bickering. And like, we need. We can only achieve this if we work together and work as a team. So we need to be honest, we need to be open, we need to speak up, we need to be appreciative of each other's strengths and realize that we all contribute in different ways. Um, and often that's the biggest challenge in a business. It's the people aspect and the management of people. So if I can get a team to really know that I need to be a team a bit like at home, if I live, uh, with my wife and my two teenage boys, it's like, they're my family, so I can't just decide I don't like him anymore, be antagonistic it's like, well, we live together, we're a family. If there's a problem, I need to go and speak about it and let's kind of clear the air and move forward. Um, so just bringing that into the team. And then the other two were be passionate and determined, which is really just a case of, um, whatever you're going to try and do is hard and you're probably going to hit hurdles and you're probably going to be told no. So you need to be able to persevere and kind of be able to get a result, uh, and not just give up at the first hurdle. And then the fourth one is constant, never ending improvement. So that's again, just helping the team understand that we all need to be growing and learning and uh, proactively, proactively doing that. And then, um. So yeah, so it's, it's kind of like you aren't trying to, uh, what's the word? Brainwash people, but in a really good way. Like if we all think in these ways and actually bring these things to life every day, we'll, we'll end up in a better place. Um, and we'll be able to tackle whatever comes at us. So, so that's kind of been a very big guiding force. And then I think the main thing is it's being a permanent reminder service on that. That's kind of, I think if you're a business leader or owner, you just have to be a permanent reminder service all the time. Again, it's a bit like when you, with kids, if you're bringing up kids, uh, you know, if you want to let them to learn the habit of brushing their teeth, you only have to tell them like 3,000 times between the age of this age and this age.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah. Even more actually when they're 21, would you believe?

Conor Heaney: Okay. Um, so yeah, I think it's being okay with not being exasperated by, oh my God, do I really have to tell you this again? Um, versus realizing like, you know, work is hard, life is hard, human beings are up and down and there's lots going on. Um, so if we're there as a permanent reminder service of these are the things that matter. This is why every day it helps everybody just focus on ways that are most helpful.

Ann Rimmer: I think that brings me beautifully on to really what you've done to. You've really paid attention to your brand and how you communicate. So it kind of brings me into your marketing. So one of the first things that I saw, um, from the business before I bought from you was, um, a book.

Conor Heaney: Okay. Yep. Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: And that helped me not only think about the things I should be thinking about when choosing a frame, but it also gave me a sense of how much emphasis you put on, um, the importance of wearing glasses and the individual. Um, so talk to me about some of the marketing that you do, because I think it's quite unusual that you still choose to have a printed newsletter.

Conor Heaney: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: And that goes out in the post and, you know, it's just a lovely thing. It's a very personal read. Um, so what. What approach are you taking to your marketing? How have you built the Jones Company brand so that. Because it's such a small business. How do you get the word out there?

Conor Heaney: Uh, yeah. So the. So obviously, again, I went to seminars and went to just learn. I love learning. And, um, finding out things that are helpful and practical. So I went to, like, I fly to America to go to seminars and things like that to learn about marketing. So I kind of started to understand some of the principles. But I think marketing boils down to being very simple, and it really comes down to empathy. It's about understanding the person that you're trying to help and what their problems are and what their fears are and what their concerns are and what they ideally would like to, um, and then being able to put that message, uh, across in a way that makes that person feel understood. Um, and then it's just showing up frequently enough because, again, people are. People are. Have busy lives. And most people aren't thinking about their glasses today. They will at some point this year, but most people aren't thinking about it regularly. So we need to show up,

Ann Rimmer: uh,

Conor Heaney: regularly in order to have a little bit of space in the mind of our clients and the people we're trying to serve. Um, one of the early things I did was write a book called the Definitive Guide to Choosing Glasses. And that's still available. It's just a free book that we offer to clients. So it's on our website, um, and we post it out. And again, that ticks the box of being different. So I think so much of succeeding as an independent business is about look at what everybody else is doing and don't do that, be different. Because if you want. If you want different results and you want to capture the attention of specific people in a market that's just overcrowded and there's so many choices, then you need to be different. Um, so a lot of our marketing ticks the box of we're doing it because it makes us different. Um, but it's also helpful. So the definitive guide to choosing glasses appeals to people. Lots of our clients that would have no interest in reading that, uh, book. But for people that have either had problems choosing glasses before or they have a high prescription like you do, and actually the shape of the frame and the thinness of the lens matter a lot. Or for people that have been wearing glasses, you know, since the age of seven and they have some hang ups because they didn't enjoy wearing glasses as a child and they've had a lot of negative associations to wearing glasses. So anybody that has had pain or problems around glasses, that, that book is really helpful. Um, so, so that's why we use that. And it helps people, but it also differentiates us. And then the newsletter is. So the newsletter to describe our newsletter, it's like a four page, four sides of a four newsletter that goes out. And for me it was putting the kind of conversations that I would have in the practice with clients, uh, just putting some of those into print because I think that's a big part of what is your usp. If you're an independent business, one of the things that makes you unique is that you're not a faceless company. You're real people with, uh, personalities and stories and lives. So the, you know, the fact that you know the names of the staff, uh, and you probably know things about Gareth and you know, things about Jess and. Yeah, um, I really wanted to lean into that because I think a lot of what, even more so today, a lot of what people want and what people are starved of is human connection. So just feeling connected in some small way to a human being in that, uh, um, you know, I've got kids and you've got kids, or, you know, I, I live here and you used to live there nearby. And like, it's all those little parts that make people feel special and feel, uh, important. So the newsletter, we do that in the practice in terms of taking time to talk to people and have a connection with them. But the newsletter, I'm just trying to do the same thing in print. Um, and because I've, as my business has grown and I, I live in Clithero, which is at peak hours, it's like a 90 minute commute. So I'm only in the practice one day a week. Um, so I still wanted to keep that connection with clients. Um, so even though there are clients that I haven't seen in years, um, there's still a bit of a connection there. Um, and we're talking about things that we're kind of showing our values. These are the things that we think are important through little stories of a little bit of humor here and there. But our clients will connect to that. And from a marketing perspective, the fact that there's a printed newsletter means they'll read it, they'll probably share it with somebody in their family, it'll sit on their table for a few days, versus if I only sent an email. Well, you'd probably receive 100 other emails today. And you may read it, you may not, and you click delete. So it doesn't get anywhere near as much attention and it doesn't create the same feeling as a physical print newsletter. Um, and the way I think about it, we probably send out 3,000 newsletters a month, um, which is obviously a significant investment. But per client, if it's a pound an issue to mail and print the newsletter, uh, then I just ask myself, is this client worth 12 pounds a year for me to communicate with them and keep that relationship strong? And the answer is always, of course. Of course it is.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah.

Conor Heaney: And I also know the other, in terms of bigger companies, the big competition they have, like Specsavers probably spends over 20 million a year on marketing in the UK. So all their messages out there, everywhere, I view my newsletter as well. I'm keeping a relationship with these people. So I'm not spending anywhere near as much. I'm spending a significant amount. But it's very targeted at creating, uh, a real relationship with our clients, making them feel good, making it enjoyable, not just selling to them all the time. And, uh, also just giving once a month, we show up and they think about us. We hopefully make them smile. We might prompt them to have a conversation or book in if they need something or talk about us to another person.

Ann Rimmer: Um, yeah, I think it makes you feel, um, more human. And I feel when. So when I read it, I tend to read it at the breakfast bar, at the kitchen. Um, and so inevitably, other members of the family look at it as well. But I feel like you're coming into my home. It just feels more intimate, I think. And, and you're absolutely right about digital marketing. I mean, you know, every client I work with is, is doing digital marketing at scale. Um, and I, I get inundated with them. And the, the ones that I read are the ones that are either beautifully written, um, or they're speaking to me, you know, in some way. They're hitting that empathy that you mentioned.

Conor Heaney: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: The other thing you do, and I, I've never participated in any of these, you do events in the store and you've done things like going to the cinema.

Conor Heaney: Yeah, so this is, uh, yeah, so the events we started by doing, obviously we're in a nice building. We're in the old bank of England building. So there's a foyer outside our space that lends itself nicely to hosting little events. So we've done events really just as a client appreciation thing. So we often will have music, you know, a wine tasting, some food of some description. And then often we'll have an eyewear designer fly in, uh, and you know, showcase new frames and things like that. But really it's just a sociable, sociable thing. Um, we've invited other businesses to collaborate and come along and do events. Um, we did a Danish event once where we had a Danish eyewear designer and Bang and Olufsen, the store around the corner, they came in and um, they brought some of their stuff. So we pick a theme just to keep it interesting and fresh. But it's kind of evolved over the years. Some events are small, some are bigger, but really it's just a way again to connect with clients, um, and also for clients to meet each other. Clients really enjoy that in terms of, uh, meeting other people that enjoy wearing glasses and finding out who they are. And a lot of them are like minded. I think we tend to attract clients, uh, who obviously there's a variety, but there's a commonality there as well in terms of, uh, what we do. And then we just try and make it fun. Enjoyable evening. So this year there was some work going on in the building, so we weren't able to host an event in the building. So that was why we just rented out the cinema and uh, took one, um, hundred clients to the cinema, which was fun as well. So a bit of wine and pizza and then popcorn and we watched. It was the Bruce Springsteen movie, because Bruce Springsteen, I wrote about that in the newsletter. Bruce Springsteen was in Manchester in the summer and this isn't very rock and roll, but he broke his reading glasses. So his assistant came in and we had to repair Bruce Springsteen's reading glasses. So I wrote a little funny story about that. Um, so that was kind of the connection as to why we took them to the Bruce Springsteen movie. I think a lot of it's just being a human being with your business and doing things that feel right and that are fun and that your clients will enjoy and even for you, Ann, as well, you haven't been to any of those events, but through the newsletter you've still kind of experienced them a little bit and it probably makes you think a little bit differently about who we are as a company. So.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, so yeah, and I think that kind of um, what you, you've done with Jones and Co is you've, you're obviously very niche, you're an independent and you're very much around that, that experience that we're talking about. But then you've taken that and you've obviously had a desire to help the independent optical industry because you, you've gone into creating a B2B element which is the Optical Success academy.

Conor Heaney: Yes.

Ann Rimmer: Tell me how that came about and what you're doing with that. Uh, a niche business requires strong positioning. Get your brand foundations in place to power that business, attract customers and gain pricing power. Make sure your business is the brand of choice.

Conor Heaney: Yeah, so that came about in, well I started in 2014 so let, uh, me think so, uh, I kind of explored do I want to have more practices and more locations. And I think on reflecting on the work to do it the way I want to do it. I, I don't know if it was a case of, I just thought it would be too difficult to deliver something at the highest level, uh, without being able to be in two places at once and having to start from scratch and build a team. And it just sounded difficult. And I also really, what was driving me again was like I want us to do things as well as they can be done. I didn't really want to lower my standards. So over the years I've kind of come to think of Jones and Co as like a flagship store. We do things uh, at a world class way and I'm happy with that. And actually there's more than enough people that want that, uh, and I can kind of fulfill, you know, what I want for my life and feel good about what I do from that. So I don't really have an interest in um, doing more and more practices. So that was one part of it. Um, so there's definitely a lifestyle element of it involved. And what, you know, I have two young kids at the time and, and we wanted to live ah, a little bit more in the countryside and we were moving to Clitheroe and you know, so there was a lifestyle involvement, uh, or factor there. But, but because of Jones and Co looking different again, this is the value of being different and doing things differently. Um, I kind of just got the attention of our industry and I was invited to give the first speaker. I got, uh, the first kind of talk. I was invited to give was a conference for independent optometrists in the UK and I was invited to give like a 15 minute PowerPoint, just showing my practice and what we do differently and why. Um, so I did that and realized there were a lot from people connecting with me afterwards. I realized that there were people interested, other independents who were interested in figuring out how do we succeed as an independent business. Because the overall pattern, as in many industries is the biggest chains and competitors, uh, just get bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger, uh, and have far more power. And then the small independent ones are struggling. And actually the ones that try to copy the big ones by, let's go low price and, you know, special offers and get them in and reduce our prices and let's speed up the time and get more people through faster. And it doesn't work because they're not, that's not leaning into the, to the advantage of an independent practice. Um, uh, and I think I was an example of an independent practice that is succeeding very well, uh, in spite of all the competition. I've been able to buy glasses online and all the, all the options that people have today. Um, so, yeah, so that gave me the thought, uh, of, okay, there's people interested in how to do this. And I think it just appealed to my own desire to want to keep learning, to keep challenging myself. It also kind of appealed to my pragmatism of, like, again, I don't see anything I do down to, um, amazing, you know, skills on my part. It's just, it's quite pragmatic. It's kind of well thought out. There's a reason for everything and there's a why. And that's something that I think that I can share with people. Um, I've just been able to take what we've done and put it in a format we can share with others. Um, so initially, you know, I wrote a few articles for trade publications for opticians, talking about that. I built a bit of an email list of people that were interested in things. And then in 2015 decided to, okay, I'm going to put together a little coaching program for people that want to be, you know, hearing stuff from me every month and getting some coaching from me. Uh, and then we had our first event in 2015. We invited, uh, other independent opticians. I think we had about 25 come to Manchester. We had an event in the Town hall for two days and it was just me showcasing kind of warts and all. This is how we do what we do. We give them the tour of the practice. I kind of cajoled my team to get on stage as well and talk about how we do what we do and why. Uh, and I just think that was kind of inspiring for other people, but also really practical in that we were able to give them the, you know, the processes and the thinking behind what we do. And then initially, I was maybe a little concerned about would my team respond positively to that or not, or would they think, why am I telling people what we do? Um, but they responded really positively, and they know my team today get a buzz out of the fact they know other opticians and other professionals are learning from them and kind of looking up to them. Uh, and I also.

Ann Rimmer: It's amazing that you didn't, um, do what a lot of businesses would do, which is just see everyone as a competitor.

Conor Heaney: Yeah.

Ann Rimmer: You've not done that. You've wanted to lift others, haven't you? And there's almost a sense of pride, I would imagine, definitely from your team in that, because you're saying, we're really proud of what we do here and we think we've got something very special and we're willing to share that because being independent and having more independent opticians is really important for the industry. It's kind of bigger than you, isn't it?

Conor Heaney: Yeah. Tarek, who is my business partner. So our first practice was seen, which is still a really successful practice in Manchester. And then we bought Jones and Co in 2009. And I kind of ran Jones Co. And Tarik ran Scene. And then in 2014, thereabouts, we split ownership and we're still good friends. I was skiing with Tarek last weekend, uh, on our annual University Friends trip. So we. For years, we were running Scene and Jones Co. Side by side, um, and very close. Like, they're only a few minutes away from each other. So that probably demonstrated to me that people will respond to whatever appeals to them. So I don't think you can be everything to everybody. You just need to believe in yourself and believe in what you offer and. And help the people that want your help. Um, and I also thought with really today, in today's day and age, if somebody wants to find out what we're up to, it's very easy with online to get a feel what brands do they have. Um, so I think worrying about your competition isn't that helpful. I remember a Jeff Bezos quote once. Uh, he said something like, if a business is really. He doesn't worry about any businesses that are worried about their competition. What, who you should be worrying about is the businesses that are really worrying about their customers. So the businesses that are focused on what do my customer, what are my customers doing, what do they want, what are they concerned about? That's what will improve your business. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it and I also think it keeps me on our, it keeps us on our toes. So it supports our high standards if we have people looking at what we need to do or what we're doing. And it forces us to keep evolving because people aren't going to hang around if we're just doing the same old thing, the same old way. So it forces us to maintain high standards and keep innovating and improving. So it kind of, yeah, I don't know, I think maybe just sets us up for success. So the two companies kind of complement each other quite nicely. And it also allows me from a personal point of view as a business owner, it allows me to kind of live the life I want to live in terms I have a business, I have a team that's not taking up all of my time and then I'm working from home most of the time and running events and things like that as well. But uh, I enjoy that and that taps into my uh, you know, the creative side of being a business owner where having ideas, solving problems.

Ann Rimmer: Yes.

Conor Heaney: Helping people, learning, having to learn new things. Uh, so, so yeah, it helps me on, on that front.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, I love how clear you are on. It's quite unusual this, um, the kind of life you want to live and that the business you could very easily have decided, well I'm going to open another branch in Leeds. I'm gonna, you know, um, but you've thought about the kind of life that you want and how you want to be as a person and you've put that at the center of how you've shaped the business. So many of us miss that we end up with the business ah, really dictating the life that we live. Um, so I think that's really, really honest and really refreshing and I think more business owners would be a lot happier if instead of seeing, and I fell into this trap of seeing that growth is the only way forward. Um, but there's different ways of growing and I think what you're doing is you're really focusing on um, those kind of that world class excellence and growing in that way, both individually but as a business. And I, I just think we would have better businesses if that's what growth was about and not about shareholder value and scale and all the stuff that that a lot of government funding pushes you towards. You've got to employ more people, you've got to have a higher turnover, uh, you've got to be looking at export, you've got to scale. All of this stuff is not always the right path for every business. So I think that's really refreshing.

Conor Heaney: Yeah, thank you for that. But I think, again, it's just that, uh, pragmatic view of, uh, like, that's really what everybody wants. You don't need to be guilty about the fact that you want to have a life that you like and spend time with your family and do the things that you're naturally good at and do work that, feel that there's a purpose there and you walk out at the end of the day and you feel, I've done, uh, I've made a difference. Um, so I think if you can set your business up to do that, you'll have a better business. And by better business, I also mean you'll help more people in a more meaningful way. And I think that's a big part of what creates the team as well, because the team are motivated not by me micromanaging them or worried about what's Connor going to do if I do make a mistake. They're motivated by the feeling that they get when, you know, a client walks out and they're over the moon and they're delighted and they feel that that staff person, that individual, has really made an impact on them. That's the, you know, so it definitely. You're right. It comes back to, um, you know, helping people and keeping that, the four at the forefront. Um, and yeah, it's. What do you want as a business owner? What does your team want? What's going to give them what they want? And then what do your clients want? And, you know, you kind of need to be looking after all of them because otherwise the numbers are. The numbers are just a number. A number that you'll be excited about this year, you'll be depressed about next year, because it's a bit of an endless, um, you know, you definitely need to pay attention to how you're doing it. And, um. And, yeah, and that changes, like, people's lives changes in terms of what do you want for your life? Um, that changes from year to year, so it's good to be aware of that, uh, and making adjustments where you need.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah. So tell me then about the challenges that you faced and some of the. Have there been any kind of pivotal moments and decisions that you've taken, or have there been Any particular challenges that you face?

Conor Heaney: Um, I think there have been lots. I think if you own a business, there's always lots of. Lots of problems and lots of. I think that's what owning a business is, solving problems. I don't really look back on anything. I think often if you read an autobiography, there's always like a chapter in there where this is where it all went wrong. But it's okay, it worked out okay in the end. I don't really have anything like that. Um, I think there's obviously been big things, so generally around people. So when Tarek and I, like friends from university, started a business together, both aged 23, 24, whatever we were when we started, you know, working together for 10 years and then making a decision, actually, we kind of want slightly different things now, so we're going to need to split and then being able to do that in a way that feels good. So obviously those are big, big things. Uh, but I feel, as I said, like with Tarek and we're still really good friends and, um, so I feel the way we handle that was, was. Was really good. And then other, other. Any staff that's been there for a long time and if we reach a point where this isn't working anymore for any reason, which is normal, people's lives change and what they want changes. I think being able to just deal with those things and, um, I think those are hard, but I think if you handle them in the right way or a way that you'll look back and respect with how you did it, respect yourself for how you did it, I think, um, those are kind of the challenging moments, but otherwise, I would say. And Stuart as well. Stuart Jones was a big part of the practice. He was the previous owner that was selling it when we bought it. So Stuart was such a big part of the business. He was the name of the business for years. Um, and then he worked for us for a few years and then it got to a point where that just wasn't quite working anymore. So, again, just navigating those changes around people and doing it a way where you're respectful to people and you're helpful to people and everybody, uh, can leave with their head held high and on, um, good terms. So I think those have probably been the most difficult things.

Ann Rimmer: You didn't decide to change the name from Jones and Company?

Conor Heaney: Well, the name was Stuart Jones Styling Opticians at the time. So we just changed it to Jones and Co to represent a slight change, but not to, not to, um, we didn't want People to feel that it's a completely different business. But we kind of wanted to keep that connection. And I didn't really have any, any need or ego around. Well, I want my name above the door. It wasn't what would be best for the clients. So, yeah, I think that's been a good decision. Um, but otherwise, I think the challenges are. It's just the perseverance and the relentlessness of it all and, you know, just showing up every day to take, you know, tackle the challenge of the day. And, um, yeah, I think that's where good results come from, is just that, uh, ability to kind of minimize the drama, just see things. It's just a problem. Well, you know, let's think through how can we solve it, and let's solve it in a way that's, you know, helpful in the long term.

Ann Rimmer: Uh, so can I talk to you about pricing? So, um, in the climate that we're in, this, this comes up a lot in B2B particularly. So there's a lot of nervousness around out pricing, um, you know, against competitors. And I think for a lot of niche businesses that they're trying to figure out, um, how do they price for profit, but how do they make sure that they don't lose customers because of pricing? And as a brand strategist, I really feel that pricing is a very strong indicator, uh, of where you sit in a market. So, you know, if something seems too good to be true, it usually is. So I think, Joe, I feel like Jones and co have used pricing strategy really well to position well away from a lot of others in the market, but also to put a value not just on the frame, but on every part of what you offer, the whole service. So talk to me about pricing and how you decide to do your pricing.

Conor Heaney: Um, so how do we. So pricing is such a big subject. And I think really pricing is much more about psychology than it is about a number. So it's not really about how much is the price. It's about how much does that person feel? Sorry, how does that person feel about the price? Um, um, so I think first of all, just pragmatically, if I want to deliver the best possible experience, then I need to have really good staff that are qualified and got expertise and I need to have enough staff and I don't want people waiting and people getting a, uh, subpar experience. Um, so there's a cost for me to deliver that. Uh, we want to have a nice, uh, environment with which to look after people. Um, I want to be able to communicate. There's a marketing need for my business. Uh, so for people to even know that we exist, we'll need to spend money on marketing. We want to send a monthly newsletter and that costs money. Um, what else? The products. Obviously we want to offer the best products and also we want to offer the kind of experience. I want to offer the kind of uh, experience that doesn't feel like a Ryanair experience where you have to pay a bit extra for that. And if you want that, it's a bit more and I want that, it just, that doesn't feel like a nice experience. I'd rather set our prices where whatever you want, that's fine, we'll take care of it. There's a problem with the glasses. No problem, we'll fix it. If you don't like your glasses, we'll change. I want to be able to have a business that can provide all of that stuff and provide that top level experience. Therefore my pricing needs to be able to support all of that. And therefore that means we're going to be at the premium end of the market. So that's kind of just a pragmatic point of view. And like you said, if the business is offering lowest prices, then it's not, it's the lowest value as well because by definition they can't deliver. Like if you go to uh, just in the world of glasses, if you're getting a pair of glasses for £99 in spec savers, well, you're not going to get an hour with an expert. You're going to see somebody that probably isn't qualified and they're going to give you 20 minutes and it's all going to be very self service and the product isn't going to be something that, you know, there's been a lot of thought that's gone into the design and the aesthetics and the brand and the story. And um, that's perfectly fine if people just want the functional, uh, you know, something functional and lower cost. But there's, in any market, I think there's a lot of people that do want something, you know, superior and something different and something that makes them feel special. And I think glasses is one of those things where if you need to wear glasses every day and you want to look good and feel good and you're aware that people, you know, their perception of you is influenced by how uh, you, you know, the glasses that you choose to wear and then equally that what people spend on a pair of glasses. So on average at Jones and Co, uh, again this goes Back to maybe our client demographic probably would be. Well, definitely would be 40 plus. So a lot of the time, if you need varifocals, your lenses are going to cost a little bit more. So that's part of it. But on average, our clients spend about 1,200 pounds on a pair of glasses. Well, actually, the average is 1200. Some of them that. That's because they're buying two pairs. Others, they're spending a bit more. Uh, but in the grand scheme of things, I know that's a lot of money, but for somebody that sees eyewear as something really important to them, and they're doing that every two or three years, it's. They see it as this amazing value. Um, so I think a lot of it is you have to value what you do. Um, and then also you have to deliver. So I know that people can spend much less on their glasses. So for us to give them the value we need to, again, it reinforces our high standards of, like, we have to hold ourselves to the highest standards in terms of how we make people feel and how we look after them. And, um, that's a big part of what we have to deliver. Because otherwise, as you said, it's not just the product, it's the whole experience that goes along with that. It's how you feel about that product when you're wearing it. Um, so, yeah, so I think I just take quite a pragmatic approach. And then there's so many little things as well. Uh, when we're talking to other opticians about this, I always ask them, like, whenever you're about to tell the client how much their glasses is going to cost, how many wows have they had before that point? And if the answer is, well, not many, it's like, well, the client's not really going to see the value. But if they've had an amazing coffee and they had a wonderful conversation with the receptionist, and there's a connection there, and you've seen Gareth and you've had a chat about what he's been up to, and Jess is talking to you about what you chose last time and asking which frame you've worn most. Um, and you're in this amazing environment and you're shown frames that you're excited by, and you know that you've got an expert in front of you that knows your history and your prescription and how to get the right lenses, um, uh, and all of these things. And then when you're presented with the price, you've already kind of felt a lot of the value. So I think. I think if more businesses looked at the psychology of what creates value for people and what makes people feel that something is worth the money and then deliver those things, then you're, um, I believe, doing a better job. You're helping people. You're giving them more value. Yes, they're paying for it, but you're giving them more value because, uh, the two things kind of go hand in hand. Yeah, I know sometimes that's a bit of an odd topic to talk about, but I'm not stupid enough to think that our clients don't know that their glasses are more expensive than what they could get.

Ann Rimmer: We do, but we know, um, you know, for me, I wear them every single day. Um, and I, you know, at the moment, these aren't the glasses I got from you, actually. My glasses I got from you are actually back with you at the moment.

Conor Heaney: Okay.

Ann Rimmer: There's a problem with the lens that the guys are sorting, so I've had to buy a cheap pair.

Conor Heaney: Okay.

Ann Rimmer: I didn't have a second pair. So for me, when I'm buying a pair of frames from Jones and Company. Yeah, I will wear those every day for two years. You know, And I, uh, mean the glasses I've got from you at the minute, they're bright green, and I absolutely adore them. Everybody comments on them and that it makes me feel really good about wearing glasses. So when my husband kind of looks at me like I've gone mental at what I've spent on glasses because I get sunglasses as well. Usually at the same time, I just say to him, pens per wear. It's literally the cheapest thing that I buy. Uh, the most important thing to me, because you're also. I think the other thing about the way you do things is the eye test is different. It feels more personal and thorough. Um, and you spot things and you discuss them and you get into lifestyle and what's important and all of those things. I'm paying more for the eye test, but what could be more important to me than the health of my eyes? There's a few things. Um, so, yeah, I think. I think customers do know. Um, but what I was going to say about pricing strategy, uh, is for Jones and Company, I think helps you filter so that you're talking to the right customer.

Conor Heaney: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was the other thing, actually, that I want to mention about prices with all of this. Um, Catherine at Jones Co often talks about Pretty Woman, that scene where she walks in to wherever she is in Beverly Hills to buy a dress and they kind of look down their nose at her and tell her that she's in the wrong place. Um, so we're always super sensitive. Again, going back to that first story of me seeing that practice and being too intimidated to even walk up the steps because it seems a bit scary. Um, so even on our signage out the front, it says, um, Irish styling, amazing frames. And I can't remember the exact wording, but it says unfriendly service. So we want to be a friendly place, but a big part of it is realizing, um, we never want to. We just want to be able to explain that. So you can get glasses for this kind of price. And that's fine if this is what you want and, you know, you're just looking for something functional. But if your glasses are really important to you and want something that makes you feel really good at and you enjoy, then that's what we do. And there's no right or wrong. It's whatever is right for you. So we can have a positive conversation with anybody, whether they choose to buy glasses from us or not. And I think people find that refreshing. And, um, that kind of builds trust. So even people that don't buy anything and decide that actually that's not what they're looking for, they still, you know, they feel good about the fact we've just been honest with them and we've respected them, and they also understand what's on offer. So, um, yeah, it's that concept of we're just here to help people make a good decision about what's right for them as an individual. If that's getting glasses from us, great. If it's not, well, we're okay with that, too. Uh, and just taking that approach in truth, probably makes more people choose you because they love how transparent you've been.

Ann Rimmer: Yeah, that's brilliant. And so we've only got a couple of minutes left before you need to dash off. Could we just finish on, um, what would be the one piece of advice you would give, give to another business owner? What's the one thing that you think would really make a difference? Because we covered a lot of things today, haven't we?

Conor Heaney: Um, what would be the one thing? I don't know if this appeals to everybody across the board, but for me, the one thing that kind of helps me and keeps me going is just an interest in learning. So I'm constantly, uh, reading business books, listening, uh, to podcasts like yours, and going to seminars. Just, even just anything. I can't watch anything on TV without, like, seeing, oh, that's good. Or even, like, if I'm on holidays, just kind of being curious, I think, would be the main thing. Be curious. Understand there's so many examples out there of, uh, how things work and how things can be done well. And I think if you're curious about those things and you take some of those things and use it, um, that can be the fuel that keeps you going through the, uh, you know, the inevitable challenges that need to be dealt with. Um, and it also, just from, um, I think it can give you positive input, if that makes sense. So if I'm just listening to the news all day, I'm depressed and I don't want to do anything and, oh, my God, the world is such an awful place. But if I'm reading and listening and putting things into my brain that actually is more positive about things that can do, that we can do to help people, that will make things better, that can take things up a level, um, then I think it's just energizing. So, yeah, that would be my piece of advice. Keep learning, keep being curious, and, um, keep doing what you do.

Ann Rimmer: Love that. That's a great piece of advice. I think it's so true. What you feed into yourself is what you put out into the world, isn't it? And you've already touched on it previously about taking inspiration from other businesses and other industries. Um, I think there's a lot. If you want to kind of hold that being different, you need to do that. You need to take your inspiration. So thank you for that.

Conor Heaney: Uh, thank you, Jan. I really enjoyed it.

Ann Rimmer: Thank you so much. And now, hopefully we'll be able to let more people know where Jones and Co is and. And how they can find these amazing frames. Everybody always says to me, where are your glasses from?

Conor Heaney: Yeah, yeah, no, pleasure. Well, thank you very much, Anne. I appreciate it. Thank you for inviting me on.

Ann Rimmer: Thank you.

Conor Heaney: Have a good day.

Ann Rimmer: Just remember to. So I've got that. It's 46 uploading. Uh, okay. Would you mind leaving it open at your end? Yes, no problem. Yeah, just.

Conor Heaney: Yeah, I'll leave that running and then I'll check in in half an hour. Whatever. Yeah, brilliant. Okay. Well, thank you, Annie. Really enjoyed that. It was nice to talk with you.

Ann Rimmer: You too.

Conor Heaney: All the best. Good luck with your podcast.

Ann Rimmer: Bye. Bye.