The Power of Dual Leadership in Sales & Marketing

Speaker A: We're specialists in brand positioning for B2B companies. And those that know me know that I love to Discover and Champion B2B businesses that are doing really amazing things with brand, um, at the kind of core and half of what they do. So in this episode I'm delighted to be joined by Lucy Ketley, Sales and Marketing Director, atg. A business that quietly demonstrates what strong branding looks like in practice. ATG design and manufacture hostile vehicle mitigation solutions for complex and high risk environments around the world. But what really sets them apart is how clearly they use brand to guide, focus, innovation and long term decision making in a highly technical regulated market. In this conversation Lucy shares how uh, staying close to customers and Government insight shape ATG's strategy, why culture and values are non negotiable and how brand helps them differentiate, build trust and create value for the long term. We also talk about balancing sales and marketing because Lucy's got a, a dual role and um, working with specialist agencies and knowing when to stay focused rather than chase those short term opportunities. So I really think there's something for everybody in this discussion and I hope you enjoy it.

Speaker B: So on today's Real B2B Brands podcast and I'm honoured to welcome Lucy Ketley, the Marketing and Sales Director at ATG Access. Lucy's been with um, unusually ATG for 14 years and I say unusually because I don't meet many marketeers who've been in the same business for that long. So congratulations on that.

Speaker C: And during that time she's actually stepped

Speaker B: up into this director role that's dual sales and marketing which will touch on in a minute. Um, but a little bit about ATG Access for those that don't know because this is a business that I followed for a long time actually, um, do a lot of work in industrial sector so I'm very interested in ATG Access. They're a UK based engineering company focused on physical security and access control systems and they were founded via a management buyout in 1992 they were acquired by Hill and Smith holdings, uh, PLC. Um, so that'll be interesting just to kind of understand that dynamic as well. And um, the business focus is on engineering obviously, but also specification, project management and global export capability. They're much more than a product supplier and they're very focused on um, from my perception, quality M and positioning the brand around supply service that can be trusted. Um, so what I'm hoping we're going to cover in this podcast today is something around the role of being a sales and marketing director. Dealing with different stakeholders in a business and having that responsibility for delivering the numbers, but also what's beneath the brand and how you've actually managed to really build this into, um, this market leader in the quality and the service that you have. So welcome, Lucy. Lovely to have you on. Um, can we start then? Because I'm really intrigued by this dual role that you've got. So a lot of marketeers today are, ah, very led by the board who want lead generation. They want very tactical work from their marketing teams. And, um, you're in this very fortunate position where you're responsible for both the marketing and the sales.

Speaker C: So it'd be really interesting just to

Speaker B: hear how that role came about for you, um, and how that impacts the kind of marketing approaches that you take. Knowing that you've got to deliver the numbers at the end of the day as well.

Speaker D: Yeah, of course. So I think it's quite unusual. I've been a marketeer since I went to university at the age of 18. So I studied marketing management. So I've always known that I wanted to do marketing. I've always had a marketing focus, as it were. Never had much interest in sales. Um, but actually when I joined atg, you realized how closely intertwined the marketing sales teams should be. Um, and actually that creates more effectiveness, I think, when it comes to client delivery, client satisfaction satisfaction, client focus. And I guess it helps teams live and breathe the brand and just remember who you are and why you exist. I'm a big believer in the why. Why are you here? What's different? Um, so the role came about for me. So I'd been with ATG, I think it was around 12 years. Um, and actually the previous sales marketing director left to pursue a new opportunity and actually works for one of our, uh, customers now, which is nice. We still work together. And I had been there 12 years. I, uh, had a really good understanding of our customer base and also our team. And it was kind of a natural progression, if you like, for me to consider this and maybe take this role on.

Speaker E: Um, um.

Speaker D: And obviously I was very nervous to start with, uh, because, you know, sales. I hadn't sat in front of a customer and sold anything. And I'm a big believer that, you know, can you really lead a team if you haven't actually sat and sold anything? Can you understand the pressures? Can you lead from the top if you've not been there and not walked in their shoes? But actually what we've found is it's very effective because actually it gives you that two Hat approach where, yes, you still have your mind on the brand and the why and why do you exist and what your purpose is. But also you have a real commercial drive. So for instance, any suppliers that you engage with through marketing services, you know that you've got real pressure on the return on investment. You need results, essentially. So actually I think having that understanding and that kind of close intertwinement between sales and marketing actually works very well. It's difficult to manage the different, um, uh, the different time pressures, if you like. But I think it's useful, it gives a useful insight and I think the two are so intertwined actually, when you really get into it.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's really interesting. So many, um, marketing teams struggle to get that connection with the sales team. And it feels often I, uh, find in businesses that, um, marketing is second, uh, fiddle to sales. So it's actually hearing that perspective. I can imagine it puts you right at the forefront of customers as well, doesn't it? Which is the other element of marketing.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And when I took on the role, there was a bit of a discussion about what the job title should be, what the job focus should be, just because it was quite a change for me, quite a shift for the board as well at atg, um, and it was a conscious decision to make me marketing and sales Director rather than sales and marketing, um, with the view that the focus would still very much be marketing led, client approach led and delivery led. And that remains today.

Speaker B: Yeah, brilliant. Thank you for that. So let's start then by talking about ATG Access, how it was born and what the vision was for the business.

Speaker D: Yeah, of course. So it's a bit of a. Well, I love the story, to be honest. So we've been going for 35 years now, uh, as you alluded to into the introduction. So we started off as VPSP and that standard, it stood for Vandal Proof Security Posts, Um, and essentially that was Driveway Security Bollards in the Northwest.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker D: Um, there was a spate, unfortunately, a vehicle theft in the Northwest. Um, we had some clever engineers working in a workshop under some stairs and shared workshop space. And they came up with some designs and a product to sell across the Northwest, which was vpsb. Um, and that business then soon became still vpsb, but renamed to Vehicle Protection Security Posts to cover a wider remit, uh, of things that we wanted to do. So basically VPSB got bought by atg, ATG Group and ATG Group, um, focused on essentially creating control systems for industrial applications. And also a part of that group was ATG airports and ATG airports still exists today. Um, and that was, I guess that merge was very much the start of our kind of engineering prowess I'm going to call it. Um, reason being is because of the amount of automation and the controls that we were dealing with, that marriage, uh, between the bollard system and um, the control system was a perfect marriage to create a very reliable, well thought out, well designed automatic bollards system. Um, and actually the affinity with ATG airports at the time was very useful because when we were talking to clients about the idea of putting automatic bollards in high profile areas, public areas or even highways, which hadn't really been done before that point, our uh, sales pattern if you like, for us, well, if we can bring a airplane safely down from the sky, then I'm sure we can get a wallah to move up and down safely. Um, and that kind of confidence, engineering prowess and just attention to quality I guess. And the things that we were delivering to clients, very much rung. True. And it was that age old referral, repeat work through recommendations and also through happy clients essentially that really got us started and moved us along the way to be honest. Um, so the automatic bollard world grew for us when we set up something called Larbug, which sounds very dry but it was the local authority rising Bollard user group. Um, we soon realized that councils were very nervous about putting automatic bollards into their highway systems because it hadn't really been done before. And if you think about all the stakeholders that interact within a city centre, it's no mean feat or project delivering something that everybody knows about, everybody's comfortable with and can be transacted through safely. So the successful pilot councils in the day, which ended up being Manchester and Cambridge, very much uh, helped us because they realized that actually other councils were

Speaker A: um,

Speaker D: probably a bit cautious, bit reticent maybe. And actually what they wanted to hear from was other councils that had the same requirement for safe operating in city centres but hadn't been through the experience of actually inputting automatic bollard systems safely. Um, so actually they wanted it to

Speaker B: be proven, didn't they?

Speaker D: Exactly, exactly. So hearing from other councils, other experienced individuals within that sector really uh, helped atg. So creating that forum was actually a really, really powerful thing in the day that we did and that we facilitated and it was client led. And it's again that client led partnership approach which has constantly stood us in good stead really and is a big part of our brand and who we are today. Um, so then it wasn't too much of a leap then from that position to putting bollard systems very reliably into. Into busy city centres to then responding to threats and change of threat in the early 2000s, when actually we needed to go forward and impact test one of our automatic bolloads to see whether it could withstand hostile vehicle attack. And that was. It sounds quite a leap, you know, driveway security to counter terrorism, but actually it was quite a logical journey when you trace it back from the start to where we are now. Yeah.

Speaker B: So I guess really what you're saying there is obviously the engineering prowess was there, uh, from the very beginning because of what you've been doing in airports, uh, but also you're listening to customers all the time and as the opportunities and the needs are rising and changing, you're following that, aren't you, and working with the customer to shape how you do that and, uh, prove the model and get the trust exactly in the.

Speaker D: The engineering prowess, as I call it, could cope with that change of threat, change of use, change of application. And we took on the challenges each time they rose, um, and entered new testing programs, new technology requirements and again, as you say, working with clients and in partnership to better the things that we're offering.

Speaker B: Yeah, so in terms of how you've positioned the brand in the market then, and I, uh, kind of, from an external perspective, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen that as being, um, around being a trusted provider. What's led you to that positioning for the business? How did you arrive at that?

Speaker D: We put it down to three things, really. So first of all, engineering and design. We're ultimately curious. We like engineering. We've got some curious engineering minds in our business and so we like taking on challenges because of that. We do deliver bespoke requirements and requests and that helps us because it furthers our knowledge to better tackle problems in the future. But it also broadens our product range constantly. So it's always been something that we've held very important from day one, which has ultimately resulted in a lot of investment over the years in design and engineering and testing. So that's, that's a big one. Um, quality and client delivery. So it's always in partnership. So any large contract that we've got, it's never just take the order and supply it and don't think about it again. It's. We do the drawing work, we do the layouts, we very much hold the client's hand, um, throughout that design process and that then Means that you end up with a fully deliverable solution which takes out I guess, a lot of the fear and a lot of the risk in that delivery. Having international manufacturing helps clients around the world. So they feel that wherever their project is, wherever the client is, they get fantastic support from atg, um, and having that full scale design right the way through to after sales and servicing. So a lot of the times when people are ordering automatic bollard systems, just to give you an example, for example, the actual operating methodology is a bit of a dark art to some people and they worry that if they make the wrong decision, they're stuck with a system that isn't easy to operate. And we kind of say to them, don't worry, everything can be changed, it's just software. Um, and we can work with you. And I think it's that collaborative, partner led. We're not going to walk away from your approach which has really helped.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: Um, and then the final thing, you don't get from a bench to supplying some of these really large projects without vision and entrepreneurial spirit. And that really does ring through our business. Um, we have had investments from private equity firms back in the day. We've also now been bought by Hill and Smith. So despite the fact that we've had these various different seismic commercial changes, that ATG spirit absolutely lives on to today. And that is the reason ultimately that I am here 14 years on because you just. We don't need a team like we have here at ATG very often. Um, and when we're interviewing for new roles, we very much say what's the attitude? What's the spirit? Like you can't teach that. So you know, don't worry about the qualifications. We'll sort that out later. If we get the right attitude and the right spirit, we'll sort the training out, everything will be fine. But we just need to find that person with the right attitude and spirit. And that has epitomized atg.

Speaker B: Really M love that there's always, it's fascinating with a lot of successful businesses, all successful businesses, there's, there's that cultural piece that you can't, you can't make it up. It's just a combination, isn't it? Of ah, different people, particularly coming from

Speaker C: the top, who really emanate how they

Speaker B: want things done and make things happen. And uh, listening to you today, it just reminds me of all the best independent businesses generally who are very entrepreneurial and they kind of just go and figure things out and get it done kind of organizations. But Obviously you've got this PLC layer to it now.

Speaker A: So what's been the impact of that,

Speaker B: ah, on how you've delivered and innovated and kind of up with new ways of working?

Speaker D: Yeah, sure. So we're really lucky with Helen Smurth's support. Um, particularly at the time that they bought us. It was just before COVID Um, and actually Covid was a really challenging time. A lot of projects, construction projects in the UK and internationally halted. So it was a really, really strange time. Um, but they really value uh, capex in investment, new product development, um, training, uh, empowerment of individuals. So it's a really good marriage to be honest with you. Um, their whole business model is uh, to kind of keep different business entities running autonomously. So we very much remain ATG and all the fantastic parts of atg, but we have the strength and all the wonderful things about Hill and Smith underpinning us. Um, and actually that does help, particularly internationally when people hear about the fact that you are associated with a plc, it just provides financial, ah, strength and trust essentially. So it underpins everything that we do and it is certainly helpful and just

Speaker B: uh, kind of going back to the start really when we're talking about sales and marketing, I'm just intrigued how you manage your marketing in terms of looking after the short term tactical elements that you need marketing to deliver to help with the growth and sustainability, but also the kind of how you build long term value in ATG access, uh, as a brand as well for the PLC and all the stakeholders. How do you balance those two things? Because short term, long term, there's a lot of debate in B2B over this.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean I think it's just making sure that we are true to our principles. Um, and every so often you know, we might run away a little bit with our ambitions and actually we remind ourselves who we are and what we're trying to achieve. And so we do sometimes challenge ourselves to overstretching or maybe doing things that wouldn't necessarily be our wheelhouse if you like. Um, we've not been afraid to say no to sometimes as well, if it's, if it's kind of off brand or out of vision or value. Um, so I think it's just constantly reminding ourselves who we are and then in terms of the short term, um, so we're, you know, there's always more to do. Always. You know, you could be working 24 hours every day and there's always, always more to do. Um, so it's about, I guess being continuously Strategic, particularly the amount of territories that we operate within. Um, we have a fantastic partner network. So it's about making sure that our partners are looked after, making sure that uh, our direct sales team are ah, very clear on what we're offering. Having a really good lead generation strategy and just making sure that our core uh, vision and values emulate in everything that we do. I think that's probably the key. But it's a challenge for sure because you know, you get exciting opportunities sometimes and you know you do always need to challenge yourself. It. Does that distract us, us? Is uh, that a distraction? Do we need to do that? Because actually coming back to this engineering and design, we do get asked weird and wonderful things sometimes because people know that we're good at it and sometimes we do have to say no because it is what I call a distraction.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, love that. I love the fact that you've said as well about remaining strategic. So you know, you even talk about strategic lead generation plans as well. And I think sometimes what I see, um, and it's not the same in every business but in some businesses there isn't longevity of, of planning and of thought and action and that could be a combination of market pressures just at the time kind of push you down, uh, a, uh, route to make money today rather than thinking about the longer term impact of that tomorrow. But also teams and people change and evolve so quickly that somebody comes and goes. They're coming to certainly in a sales scenario achieve their target and they're not necessarily thinking about the longer term future and impact of it. Whereas it just strikes me listening to you today that you are, first of all you're a director, uh, so that makes a difference. Secondly, um, you're a strategic marketeer so you will naturally kind of gravitate towards understanding brand and the longer term impact of your actions as well. But thirdly, you've been in the business such a long time, you're obviously committed to the business. Yeah, um, just three massive ticks there for me I think. Do you see that within the business that others understand that longer term impact of decision making?

Speaker D: Yeah, definitely. I mean we don't have very high turnover staff at acg. We really don't. So we've got our senior management team and also our board of directors have all been with us five years, ten years, sometimes 30 years. Um, uh, our chief engineer, he's been with us to 30, 30 years. Um, I've got a fantastic lady in my cell team who's been with us for over 30 years. So these People have very much come on the journey, the ETG journey. And, you know, I'm privileged. I feel like I still feel young sometimes, you know, like, I've only just joined them. I'm halfway through. I just joined them halfway through, so I'm always catching up. Um, so. So, yeah, um, you know, we've got some wonderful people who, like myself, I guess, and it's. Call it sad, call it something else, but, you know, live and breathe what we do. And, you know, I think we've got a business full of people like that. And that comes very much back down to this ATG spirit. You know, it's quite. It's quite addictive. And I remember having a conversation with our, um, regional sales lead for the Middle East, a chap called Zachariah Demodash. And he's relatively new in the scheme of things. He's been with us three years, I think, now. Um, and we were facing an incredibly difficult project in the Middle East. It was very frustrating. We weren't getting any feedback. Um, and I called him just to check he was okay. And he said to me, yeah, absolutely fine. I'm on call all weekend. If you need anything, please, you know, please let me know. And I was saying, are you sure? You know, you need to have some time with your family. And he went, lucy, I love it. Just call me anytime. I absolutely love it. And I just thought, we've got lots of people like that now, too. Um, and it's. Yeah, it's wonderful. In fact, it's a very difficult, difficult formula to create. And, you know, I couldn't necessarily put my finger on how we've ended up in this situation or what's driven it, um, it's definitely something that we need to protect at all costs. Because if you said to me today, Lucy, go and start your own business. Can you please create this exact culture in your new business? Impossible. How would you do it? You know, what is that recipe for success? Success. It's very difficult to put your finger on.

Speaker A: Very true.

Speaker B: Um, there's some magic in there. Uh, and it sounds to me like you've got core values as a group of people, as an organization that you're absolutely sticking to. And honestly, not everybody does that.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: Um, but also because you're doing that, you're attracting people who share those values and believe in that method of working. Uh, and possibly it'll help you attract the right customers as well, who value

Speaker C: what you do and will listen and

Speaker B: will partner with you and collaborate and all of those lovely things that end up delivering the best outcome for them and for the business as well. Um, and that's magic, isn't it? It's not right. It's not something you can just start business and create that. Uh, it's a very, it's a long journey. It's a very, yeah, long path to

Speaker D: get in there I think. And you don't always know how far reaching it is. So I was on a call with a potential supplier in Europe a couple of months ago. We were doing a presentation to them and actually it was made up of a team of people who had come from various different competitors. It was quite a unique situation. It was a group of companies that had merged and formed to become another company. And there was a lady there who'd been in the HVM industry for over 20 years and I said to her, because I hadn't come across her before, do you know atg? I was quite um, maybe a bit naive about it. I said, do you know atg? And she straightaway said, yeah, absolutely. I know that you are the best quality provider in the industry. And that's, you know, for somebody who I didn't even hadn't had a conversation with before, didn't really have any awareness of, um, yeah. So it's really far reaching.

Speaker C: Competing in B2B today can be tough, especially in complex or established sectors where everyone sounds the same. At uh propelled, we help businesses break out of that sameness by grounding strategy

Speaker B: in deep customer insight.

Speaker C: We capture the voice of the customer to uncover real needs, real decision drivers and real opportunities. Then we use that knowledge to build a clear, differentiated brand position. The result? Better conversations, stronger leads and greater pricing power.

Speaker B: So tell me then, you've done uh, as a team and a great job of getting that reputation. And like I say, that's how I've always seen ATG access, for whatever reason, that you're at the top end of the market in terms of the quality and the engineering. But tell me how then you must come up against um, competitive pricing and other challenges from a sales point of view. So what are those challenges that you face and how do you think you're able to overcome that because of what you've done with the brand?

Speaker D: Definitely. So particularly at the moment, the economy is challenging not just in the UK but wider afield. Actually in the UAE we're seeing a lot of projects be value engineered. We're seeing a lot of pressure on competitors coming from new territories which really got a hold during COVID invested in uh, testing and uh, have launched A load of products and actually are putting a lot of pressure on us in terms of price. Um, but throughout the design process we very much focus on long term product serviceability, um, and also long term performance. So whilst you on a bid tab could cost ATG and work out that we are more expensive than a, ah, rival supplier, for instance, if you look at the actual long term product cycle, uh, our products deliver more value and more cost effectiveness long term because of the fact our products are completely serviceable and they are built for longevity. So it's about having a fully clued up sales team and also having those conversations with the right people within that project. Um, and it isn't always easy because economic pressures are as they are and you know, contractors need to drive value through their projects. But actually sometimes we haven't been successful. We have lost projects obviously, as everybody does and actually customers have come back to us for the next project or even sometimes later on in that very project that we originally lost because they know that whatever it is they've done or procured or whatever either, uh, hasn't been compliant, hasn't been the right thing and they've had to do some rear guard action to get ACG back into the project to deliver the specification that they were originally meant to be delivering or they've had a bad experience and they can't risk it again and they know that ATG are the ones to come to. So actually whether it be short term or longer term, people ultimately value ATG's involvement. It doesn't always happen. You know, obviously people have different relationships with other suppliers but our uh, delivery is proven time and time again.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just thinking about obviously do a lot of uh, global exports is everything manufactured in the uk

Speaker D: so the control systems and the hydraulics are um, but some of the metal fabrication are manufactured uh, over in Singapore, uh, usa, the UAE and um, Malaysia.

Speaker B: Okay, yeah. And how do you manage the marketing to all those different territories globally?

Speaker D: So through a partner network. So we realized very early on in our export journey that to actually sell directly from the UK would not be feasible or easily scalable. So we put various different strategies in place for Europe, the Middle East, America and also Southeast Asia and Australia to make sure that we were taking the right country strategy bit by bit to make sure that we would be successful or do the right thing for that particular territory. And that changes all the time. So we're constantly having to review that. So for instance in Europe, uh, obviously to be able to cover the whole of Europe speak all the languages, understand all the nuances of the different markets in Europe. And security would be an awful lot of direct investment from atg, for instance. Actually the best thing for us to do and the thing that we do is partner with the individual experts in country. We try and find partners who share our uh, vision, our uh, values and have a really good alignment with who ATG are and value what we do. And we work with those companies to deliver the same service that we deliver clients in the uk, but direct to their territory.

Speaker C: How do you stay ahead of technology and regulation and customer expectation?

Speaker E: Sure. So it's a really good question. Things are changing all the time and obviously in the industry that we work within, a lot of it is to do with emerging threats, um, and an emerging technology used by hostile actors essentially. And it's down to us to keep informed about that, to make sure that our product innovation and development calendar reflects what clients need essentially. Um, and that's down to stakeholder management. So we have the government, well, we have an area of the government that looks after uh, the threat intelligence that we get as a country and that is obviously filtered down to us in the appropriate way to make sure that manufacturers are working in collaboration with government to produce technology to ensure that areas and people are safe, what we specialize within. But also a lot of it is client led because actually a lot of this technology that might look good on paper or might be successful on a test track can't be installed for whatever reason. And a really good example of that is our shallow foundation technology. So originally, when the threat changed in the early 2000s and we embarked on a testing program with the British government, a lot of the original early door solutions were very deep, very bulky, uh, bollards were big and fat, they were sort of 300 mil plus in diameter. And actually the, the more and more that these products are used and accepted in public locations, technology has needed to move on. So products have needed to be slimmer, more aesthetically appealing, able to be integrated into things like planting street furniture. And also a lot of city centres don't have the depth available. So the historic threat, and where this first started in the UK was possibly around critical national infrastructure. So things like military bases, airports, areas where you may be able to get quite a lot of foundation depth. Um, and as the threats have evolved and changed, a lot of these products are now needed in urban busy environments, even bridges, where foundation depth just isn't feasible. So the threat remains, but actually the product delivery has changed because the foundations are needing to be shallow. And shallower. So we work with industry and clients to understand this and the different threats that are emerging. And it comes back to this constant investment in engineering and design to make sure that we are ahead. I think whilst a lot of the innovation is kind of incremental improvements or changes to make clients lives easier, there have been probably two or three what we'd call step changes in the industry in terms of innovations that ATG has absolutely been at the heart of. Uh, and that has been an example of uh, our links with industry customers and listening to customers ultimately and what's needed.

Speaker C: Yeah. So that it sounds to me like the way you're kind of keeping abreast of everything is making sure that you're very close to customer but also you're feeding off what's coming through from insights from government, etc. And you'll be doing that on a global scale, won't you?

Speaker E: This is why again, it's so important to uh, make sure that you're focusing on the areas and the territories where you can actually make a difference and your products and technology do have value because you can't as little as little old ATG based in the northwest England, you can't take on the world. It's just, you know, it's not feasible. So you work with partners, you listen to stakeholders, you have close client relationships, uh, and you just try and focus on the areas where you can really deliver value and our services and technology are appreciated and um, helpful to clients essentially.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Now that makes sense. So kind of looking ahead then for you with ATG, what's the vision for the next sort of five to 10 years? And I suppose another part of that question is, is the business thinking that far ahead or have you found in more recent years that there's shorter term plans because the world is just upside down and changing so fast, isn't it?

Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, certainly is. I mean I think in terms of our forward thinking, I think five years. Yes. I think 10 years, not at this given moment in time. Uh, a couple of reasons. First reason being that we just don't know whether threat is going to be going in the next ten years. Uh, things could be very, very different in the next 10 years and obviously with the uh, there's a few key things that are happening in our industry which might change things. So first of all the protect duty which is looking to go ahead in the UK and that will change possibly, uh, how far risk analysis maybe reaches and the different clients that are then having to think about that. So it's certainly challenging at the moment, you know, with the various different economic geopolitical situations, uh, around the globe for sure. So again, you know, all we can focus on is this piece about not getting distracted. You know, focusing on core values, focusing on what we do, where we can deliver value, making sure that our partners align with those values, you know, making sure that we're not complacent over that. So we have a really good client delivery, whether somebody's facing Germany, whether they're in Norway, whether they're in the UK or the Middle east, um, and making sure that we remain very well linked into those crucial stakeholders like the government, delivering information on threat and any changes in threats, working with associations such as the, uh, association of Security Consultants. Uh, a lot of knowledge in there that can be tapped into to try and help inform where we're going, where things are going and projects are moving. And also just working with strategic partners to make sure that we stay ahead. It's not easy and things are certainly challenging, more challenging than they were maybe five years ago. But it's just making sure that we don't get distracted and we do, you know, whilst we move forward and not backwards, we do remember those core values and make sure we're making the right strategic decisions based on those core values and who we are and what we can actually deliver.

Speaker C: Yeah. And can I ask you, uh, just a little bit about the kind of practicalities of your marketing? In particular, have you built an in house team or do you work with external providers and how does all that work?

Speaker E: So a bit of both, to be honest with you. So we do have a very lean marketing team. So at the moment it's my colleague Erin who's our marketing coordinator and then it's myself and then we work with external agencies. We've got a really fabulous pr, um, agency who we've worked with for many years. Uh, and also we're, we work with external digital marketing providers as well. Yeah, we have the expertise to make sure that we are delivering campaigns and lead generation tactics strategically or maybe don't have the expertise in house to make sure that those campaigns and those lead generation ideas are being delivered basically. So we work with externals to ensure that that's done right and by the experts in that field.

Speaker B: Brilliant.

Speaker C: Uh, the reason I'm asking this is obviously the landscape's change a lot, as you'll know, for agencies, but also in house teams as well. What do you think are the key things that if you're going external for any creativity or delivery, what do you think are the key things that agencies and freelancers as well of course should be bringing to a client today that

Speaker B: you wouldn't do in house?

Speaker E: So I think the main things for me are niche expertise. So I uh, used to do what I call the nitty gritty coal face of marketing for ATG day to day. I can't and could never be an expert in absolutely everything. So I think it's always been my job to look after the vision and where we need to be and to make sure that we're spending our money wisely to achieve that end goal. M. Um, so from suppliers and providers, I think one of the key things that I look for when I'm onboarding a new supplier or thinking about working with them is their view on the commercial elements. So it's one thing to think, I mean just to give you a really simple example, so I have a love hate relationship with email marketing. I really struggle with it sometimes. Uh, and that's because of what we do and I just still don't really believe that it's got too much of a place in what we specifically do because of the, just the high value knowledge of the people that are actually wanting to engage. Email marketing just wouldn't be the right tactic for me. Um, and it's a, it's a really silly example but it's just making sure that suppliers understand that and really understand the information from our client base to picture them and make sure that they are understanding the right tactics to be able to get them engaged. So having a supplier that has had firsthand experience in the business, to business, sales and marketing world is always something that I look for because they will understand the commercial pressures, the nuances of it and the fact that some of the kind of original traditional marketing tactics just might not fit for whatever reason.

Speaker B: No, no.

Speaker C: So they need to understand the business and they need to understand the customers to be able to commercially think what's the best use of that budget, don't they?

Speaker E: Yeah, definitely. And second thing I think for me is, is to challenge me because again I'm not the expert in everything. You know, I've now got two hats on. The sales hat on and the marketing hat. And although the marketing hat should always be longer term, the sales hat tends to be quite fast paced and in the day to day, um, and it can be very distracting at times. So I think having a supplier that is, I always say to the suppliers that we work with, please challenge me if you don't agree with me, if you think I'M making the wrong decision. Don't just sit there and say, yes, please, please challenge me. Because, you know, I'm not the expert, I want them to challenge me on that.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker C: And you both value that outcome for the business, aren't you?

Speaker B: So, I mean, I've always said that

Speaker C: the best thing that an agency can bring is perspective. Yeah. It's really important though, isn't it? Because you get so close to the day to day, you can be too close in on it and you lose that perspective. So, yeah, I just thought it was good to ask that because I think, um, you know, people listening will be wondering how you'd actually deliver all of this marketing alongside the sales. And it's good to hear that there's still a role for those niche specialists to supplement what you're doing, but to understand, um, how they approach that and

Speaker B: what's important in B2B. Because it's.

Speaker C: It's hugely complex, isn't it?

Speaker E: With all of it is, yeah. Definitely fresh ideas as well, you know, because again, somebody who's been in the business 14 years, it's both a blessing and a curse. So there is a, you know, there is a bit of a. And I try and challenge myself on it. You know, I try not to become a dinosaur. Um, you know, there is a bit of a mentality of, well, that's never worked, so why, you know, why are we going to do it? And actually, whilst that's. That's good to have that perspective and to know that I've tried it and maybe it hasn't worked, times move on, things are different, tactics change, people change. And so actually having somebody with fresh ideas, great. And that's, you know, that's something definitely worth its weight in gold.

Speaker C: What have been the things that have worked the best for you over the years that you've been in the business

Speaker E: in terms of marketing? So really good question. So I think, hands down, working with international, uh, so part of the British government, they actually offer. Um, they're called. I can't remember what they're called now, but they've been called various different names over the years. I think at the moment they're the Department of Business and Trade.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker E: And essentially within, uh, embassies around the world, there are desk officers that focus and specialize in different market sectors.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker E: So for instance, ours would be defence and Security. Um, but also sometimes that's split out. So actually sometimes it is just security, which is even better. Um, and it's working with those in market leads to essentially produce Bespoke events within British embassies abroad to create CPD knowledge transfer events that are kind of delivered at a very, very high level. And it's also realizing that people aren't going to take out a whole morning of their time to come and listen to a bollard provider. It's just not going to happen, you know, but if you tie it up with somebody there to talk about, about risk, you know, a leading security consultant in the field some. But again it's working out who your customer is and delivering value to that customer and realizing that they're not going to give up half a day to listen to you talk about uh, bollards, you know. Yes, we're very passionate about bollards but we also have to realize that other people might not be. It's about creating value. Tailored events, high profile, you know, people, uh, and actually getting a personal invite from the British Embassy in Oman, the uae, wherever it may be, um, to your desk is actually a really powerful thing. Um, so that's been really, really successful. And we've actually had a lot of our international project work traced to events such as that or partnership, um, relationships have started at events like that. And it's about finding these people who are you know, high value, high, highly engaged, uh, and interested. You know, it comes back to that really. So that's been a big one. And again it's the people buy from people B2B uh approach and that kind of ties into that to be honest with you. And I think the other one is particularly after Covid and it's a lesson, probably a hard lesson really that we've, that we've learned whatever you do, digital marketing is just absolutely fundamental. It really is. And it's not the be all and end all. It needs to go hand in hand with offline B2B people buy from people tactics.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker E: But in niche uh, sectors such as the ones that we operate within, it's not a heavily brand led industry as in you know, it's not like shampoo for instance, like you know, Tresemme or l' Oreal or whatever it might be. People Google it. Um, and so I think making sure that you are there and visible at ah, that ah, critical point when people want to find you is just really, really important. And particularly after Covid we've seen a real shift. You know, it's always been important but we've seen even more importance after Covid, to be honest with you. People still not really in the habit of going to events. People still having this big Kind of digital virtual shift that's been uh, a difficult one for us to keep up with but we're getting there.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, you and most B2B companies I think. But it's fascinating listening about the trade export events because I, I had experience with that same team. Oh, I'm going back probably 10 years ago in Japan, um, where we were launching a client over there and I was blown away by how much support they gave and again, you know, they allowed us to do an event at the embassy and as you say, for us that meant we could build on the Britishness of the brand as well. But also the insight and on the ground knowledge and contacts that they've got is phenomenal. So you've taken me back there, it's

Speaker B: good to hear it.

Speaker C: And I uh, do think that whilst the digital marketing is critical and you're right, you know, people literally know what they want to buy in B2B and they're looking for the suppliers.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker C: They also then want the trust element of buying from people and they want to know what's behind the business, don't they? So yeah, it's how you, how you bring those increasingly onto your digital channels so your thought leaders and all the experts in the business and, and what's behind the business and how you do things, um, but still have the, the personal one to one contacts as well. It's all part of the mix, isn't it?

Speaker E: Yeah, definitely. And it's really, it's really difficult to achieve because there are so many people now that don't really want to talk to you. They just want all the work to be done online.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker E: And then an email to be sent, a quote to be received and then ultimately that, that be that. But actually because we are not just the cheapest, you know, and not just kind of box shifters if you like. Yeah, it doesn't work for us because that doesn't give us an opportunity to sell the value and what we deliver. So it's about marrying that kind of anonymous, faceless digital inquirer explorer, um, you know, versus making sure that they understand who ATG are and all the good things that I've spoken about today and about who we are and what we do. So it's a challenge. It's a challenge and you uh, get it right. But through trial and tribulation, just have to be willing to do a bit of experimenting, you know, and hopefully just start investing with the formula that works.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's great. So let me ask you then, if you were talking to a mid sized B2B company, not necessarily in your sector but generally about building a brand that's trusted in a specialized technical market. What's the one piece of advice that

Speaker B: you would give them

Speaker C: so much over these 14 years?

Speaker B: All that in. I mean you can't say with culture

Speaker C: didn't ah, you and that's like as

Speaker B: being critical to your.

Speaker E: Yeah, I can't, I can't decide whether it's, it's, it's a bit of both to be honest. So when you say one it's challenging to block out what's the most important but culture, absolutely fundamental because if you get the culture internally right that will emulate externally and to your clients and, and that's a really fantastic way of building a brand from the, from the ground up. So that's very, very important. But also focus. I think that's really important because it's so easy to become distracted by commercial opportunities that may be short term might be great but longer term derail you, distract you. Um and actually longer term don't create the same success as having a focused strategy might do. So I think it's culture and focus for me.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. So the last question then, um, which I'm to invite every guest to answer is do you have a business brand that you admire? Uh, and um, if so what is it about them?

Speaker B: Oh gosh, everybody talks about kuma brands

Speaker C: but actually thinking about business brands and

Speaker B: you know what you admire in one

Speaker C: would be really good.

Speaker E: Um, so it's, it's one that's just come to my attention very recently to be honest. Um, and it's actually a company called Strong Door and they are not very well known, you know, in kind of general market terms, um, supplier of security doors at different levels. And the reason that I like them is because they are not afraid of experimenting. Their marketing is full of crazy and wacky ideas which really pay off and through that they are creating quality quite unapologetically, uh, zany brand. I don't know anything about client delivery. Um, I'm guessing it's good because they seem to be growing at the rate of knots and you don't do that if you're not proven in delivery. But yeah, I think they've come to my attention recently through a uh, a um, shared provider that we both use and I, and I follow started following them on LinkedIn and actually the more and more that I see of them I just really like what they do to be honest.

Speaker B: Brilliant.

Speaker C: I need to have a look are they do you know, if they're a young business. Sound like a young business in that behavior. Like a bit disruptive?

Speaker E: Yeah, absolutely. They are a bit disruptive, but not necessarily in the products that they produce, but is in, I think, the attitude and how they promote themselves. I think they're quite disruptive in that way. So, just an example, they did a. They did the Strong Door Fest, which, you know, essentially is an open day, you know, and that could sound potentially quite boring for a security door provider. When they made it really, really fun, they kind of turned it into a festival. They. They did festival merchandise.

Speaker D: Um, yeah.

Speaker E: Just thought it was really, really clever.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Check them out. It's really good. Thank you so much.