Building a global, customer-oriented brand with instinct

Speaker A: Welcome to the Real B2B Brands podcast. I'm Ann, um, Rimmer, Founder and chief Brand Strategist at, uh, Propelled. Those that know me know I love finding and championing B2B businesses that are doing things differently. Which is exactly why this conversation was such a joy. I'm delighted to be joined by Helen Tonk, CEO of Hydraulics Online, a family business that has instinctively used the foundations of branding to build a truly differentiated model. Today, Hydraulics Online serve customers in over 130 countries, with exports accounting for over half of their turnover. Uh, in this conversation we explore trust as a competitive advantage, founder led, brand building by instinct or. And how purpose, vision and values create brands that last. Helen openly shares the experience of operating in a male dominated industry. And she shares the moment she realizes her superpower is not being an engineer and being a woman. I think you're going to love this. I, for one, certainly love speaking to Helen. And whether you're a founder, a marketeer, a female entrepreneur. Preneur. Sorry, I know you're just going to love it. So please listen, enjoy and do give me your feedback. On today's Real B2B Brands podcast. I'm honoured to welcome Helen Tonks, CEO of Hydraulics Online. Helen and her engineer husband Mark set up hydraulics online in 2004. And when doing that, they set out to change really two things that were quite different at the time and I believe are still the differentiators today. So the first one is to be independent of any brand so that they could really offer the customer the very best product solution for their application. They've used online as the only route to market, although they don't sell online, which we'll go into in a little bit more detail as we go through. And the second one is to put customers front and center of everything that they sell, have how they advise and the support and service that they provide. So they're way more than just product company. Um, so the website, as I mentioned, is a shop window. It's the way into Hydraulics Online, but every sale is dealt with by a team member. It's an exceptional kind of customer experience company and today they're trusted by customers in 130 countries. So export is absolutely mega for this business. The world really has become their oyster. And Helen was awarded an MBE in 2024 for her contributions to business and exports. She's also a UK Government export champion, a Northern power woman and a mentor to entrepreneurs and, um, students. Helen's been on a bit of a journey as the chief brand Builder. So I'm really looking forward to this discussion and featuring this wonderful business that's definitely punching well above its weight, um, and doing its very best to be built on what I believe are the key brand foundations of vision, purpose, values and very clear points of difference. So, without further ado, welcome, Helen.

Speaker B: Hello.

Speaker A: Um, can we start then with the origin story? So what inspired you and Mark to create Hydraulics Online? And, and what gap had you seen in the market?

Speaker B: Okay, so you mentioned I've been on a bit of a journey. I absolutely have, and that will come through as m our discussions unfold. The real backstory to Hydraulics Online dates back, given my age away now to, well, certainly to my childhood. Mark and I were childhood sweethearts. Um, and then life took us in different directions and back in 2004 we came back together. Mark at that point had spent 13 years in hydraulic engineering and prior to that had been in engineering more broadly. So he had already obviously got, um, a really good handle on the, on the industry. My background up until that point, I'd been to university down in Bristol, stayed in the Southwest for a number of years, had studied economics and accounting. Not my smartest move in life. I really didn't enjoy it. Um, but anyway, we pushed through, um, and I joined Barclays bank as a graduate and I worked for them for nine years, then moved to a big life assurance company and worked there for another four years. And across those 13 years combined, I'd specialized in strategic change management. I'm really good with a blank sheet of paper, making things happen and joining the dots. So when Mark and I got back together in 2004 and within six months he was saying, I wish we could have our own business. I would love to have my own hydraulic engineering business. I said, come on then, let's do it. We've kind of got nothing to lose. And I recognized that whilst not necessarily perfect, we'd actually got a really good skill set between us. You know, his technical expertise, which would be at the core of the business and my ability to, by hook or by crook, make everything else happen. So I'll often say he's the Hydraulics and I'm the online. Um, online then was obviously a very, very, very different world back in 2004. Some of your listeners might not even remember it, um, but we recognized it as our route to market for the get go. There were a number of reasons for that. A, there was just the two of us, so it wasn't about having a big sales force and door knocking and hoping that you might knock on a door or make a phone call to the customer at the right time. It was more about recognizing that in hydraulic engineering, ah, as with other industries, you can't make people buy what they don't need. It's therefore about being found and being visible, about being present when you are needed. So we recognized from the get go that, uh, online was the way to kind of showcase ourselves to the world. So yeah, that was, that was it really. And we were laughed at. Absolutely. Uh, we were laughed at because we were joining a very, very established, very traditional industry. There's nothing new about hydraulic engineering. Very technical by definition. You know, hydraulic engineering is complicated. 21 years in my knowledge is still very, very scant, to say the least. I've never even tried to learn as such. Um, very technical, very product led, very, very fragmented. So when we came along saying that we wanted to be this online player and we were going to put customer first, we were literally laughed at. So, yeah, that's, that's the background, that's the origin story.

Speaker A: That's brilliant.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The bravery to actually go and do it as well is incredible.

Speaker B: So I do wonder on that, I do sometimes look back, say, were we brave or were we stupid? Because at the time we'd got four young between us that all lived at home, all under 10, and then number five, the joint one, came along. But bravery I think we've always had, and we can build on this. We've always had such conviction, we've had such a sense of purpose that, that has given fuel and momentum and belief to everything that we've, we've done in creating the brand.

Speaker A: I think that's a common theme, isn't it, in people like ourselves that, uh, see start businesses and were seen to be brave, that actually we never felt brave. We just really had something driving us, I guess. And there was a bit of fear for me as well. So I think what would be good to just explore is how did you approach building the brand from the ground up? So were there any kind of guiding principles or values and things that shape decisions early on?

Speaker B: Um, there were. There absolutely were. And you're talking to, talking to somebody now who has never studied marketing for a day in her life. So insofar as the brand has been my baby and I'm passionate about it now, I love brand. I realize now I've acted so much from my gut, um, and with instinct, but the guiding kind of principles that there were a whole number and in no particular order, although you've already mentioned independence, so in setting up our own business, there were two main things, I guess. One, we didn't then want to put ourselves in somebody else's pocket and just be a product distributor. Shifting boxes for, for a big name in the industry because, uh, that didn't feel right. That felt like we'd almost be putting ourselves as, you know, the puppet to their strings.

Speaker A: And was that the norm, Helen, in the industry? Was that how it tended to be?

Speaker B: Yeah, and it still would be. Now, you, obviously, you've got big manufacturers, huge, huge global names. You know, there are a handful that absolutely dominate the industry and they will deal directly with their big customer accounts. You know, consider the JCBs of this world who will literally consume hydraulics like, you know, as a core component to their, to their product line. And then there will be smaller manufacturers as well that will replicate and act as direct equivalents to some of these bigger brands. And then you've got niche manufacturers. But in all of that, you know, the product distribution bit is absolutely key, and it's a global market as well. So we knew we didn't want to just shift product and confine ourselves to representing that brand or a very small number of brands, because that's not going to be in the interest of the customer ultimately, if that prohibits you from discussing explaining, recommending an alternative product. And I should say in all of this, sorry, I think it's clear, but we're not manufacturing. We are, I don't even say distributor. We source and we supply. Yeah, so. So the independence was key for a start. So that made other people in the industry skeptical about us. The idea that we didn't have ourselves anchored in some way. And then the other one that we've already mentioned is customer. So it is a very, very technical, fragmented industry. Even for customers who are, uh, technically adept, it's difficult for them to navigate. And we truly wanted to be able to give that, uh, best advice. And it was about putting customer ahead of product. If you think about it, it's a very different business that says, we sell this, do you want to buy it? Next day delivery, you know, competing on price point, competing on new feature available, whatever it may be. But the focus is, we sell this, do you want to buy it or buy it not even, do you want to imagine that as a business compared to another one that's like, dear customer, how can we help? Bring your problems here and we will solve them. And that's who we wanted to be and that's who we set out to be. That would be the second sort of Pillar that I would, I would call. Yeah. Then you, you've mentioned already and um, even though online was baked into our name and I can come back to that in a bit more detail because that's been absolutely key. We've never sold online. Um and the reason for that being not just the investment in stock and infrastructure that that would demand but in our industry if somebody is self serving online and you are allowing them to click an add to cart and checkout and there's been no interaction then the quality of that sale is only going to be as good as that customer's knowledge.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: If they've got it wrong and um, you haven't had a conversation with them then you are going to be whether it's you know, the next day, the next week met with a, ah, uh, this isn't right. There's a problem. Can I return it? Or whatever it may be. So we always wanted to use the website as the inquiry engine that then brought a human into the mix. Yeah. And m. I know when I last looked asked our stats, you know our returns rate so the number the of returns that we have compared to sales is 0.6% because we get it right first time. Yeah. So it was all about then getting it right about adding value and human LED service off the back of the website. And then the other guiding thing was the international element that you've mentioned already. We are dealing with product equipment components that function the same way in Peru or the Philippines or Philadelphia or Peterborough. So we knew that our knowledge and our service we didn't need to just restrict ourselves to a UK marketplace.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And if you were to look on our website you'd see wording to that effect. Basically now we actually sold to an international customer within our first month of trading. It had been an existing contact of Mark's and as soon as we had that sale in the bag I started to create content that we promoted online to signal our appetite for international trade. Exports now account for 50% UM of our turnover. But in all of that and um, in the guiding principles and in sort of building the brand from the ground up, name was absolutely key. And if ever I get the opportunity to mentor somebody early on um, pre startup that's one of the things I will encourage them to be obsessed about because it can really, really open doors for you. Mark had wanted to call us Cheshire Fluid Power. Fluid Power being different terminology for hydraulic, um, hydraulic engine. And you can just see Cheshire Fluid Power as a name probably wouldn't have taken us into 130 countries. So the name was absolutely key. But it wasn't just, um, that it wasn't Cheshire Fluid Power. It was a name that did what it said on the tin, had authority, wouldn't box us in in any way, would translate well in search engines, et cetera, and then to the visual aspects of the brand. We wanted something that then, um, differentiated ourselves from our competitors. And at the time there was a lot of blue, there was a lot of red, there was a lot of black used, so we decided to go with green. And the look of the brand has transitioned over the years. How we appear now is actually the third iteration of how the Hydraulics Online brand appears. So when I actually look back, there was a lot that we already knew. Even though it was a blank sheet of paper between us, we brought a lot to us that sat us up, without a doubt.

Speaker A: It's interesting listening to you because one of my questions, um, was going to be, so if you're in this technical B2B space and differentiation can be very tough in that kind of climate, really in those sectors. So one of my questions are going to be, what have been the most effective ways that you've seen set Hydraulics Online apart from the competitors? But I think it's already starting to come through, isn't it? You know, you've thought about a lot of things early on, the name being one of them. The decision and the name kind of being able to take you into other markets and expand the business globally. But then the decision to use that word online, um, which was very new in 2004, but also, actually you might expect that it's an E commerce business but. But it isn't because people are at the heart of this company.

Speaker B: Yeah, ah, online. And our name was about where you would find us and how you would access the expertise that we could, you know, that you could, as, uh, you, as a customer or prospective customer could leverage, it was about where you would find us.

Speaker A: Do you think there's any other things that have set you apart that have really been effective to do that from the competition

Speaker B: in terms of the brand and the differentiation?

Speaker A: Yeah, just any of the, uh, tactics, the brand, the way you've done things?

Speaker B: I'd say it's values. Trust is my favorite word. I'm absolutely obsessed with trust. You'll find it on the homepage of our website and you'll find it littered throughout. And we all know, you know, it takes a long time to build, but it can be broken in an instant. But trust is so important because without it Regardless of the relationship, whether it's friend, whether it's family, whether it's business, if you haven't got trust in a relationship, you've got absolutely nothing. So trust is something I've been obsessed about, and particularly obsessed, given the geography of our customer base now, because we meet so few of them, probably less than 1%, you know, and, you know, many times, you know, well, it's obviously, it's email, it's, um, it's phone calls, but there's very few handshakes involved. So the trust is even more important. It's obviously trust on a number of levels. By the time somebody is engaging with, talking with one of the team and that relationship's building and they sense that they're being well guided and supported and the questions make sense. And we're sometimes challenging a customer to think again about exactly what it is they're trying to achieve, to make sure we can give that best advice. And that trust is going to build in a different way then. But it's about building that trust from the start when, if we've managed to perform in a search engine and somebody has clicked onto us, that trust has got to start coming through the screen then as well. We've got to be giving them the right vibes. So in terms of the marketing and the brand elements to that, it has been about showing, uh, you know, we've got a huge portfolio of customer testimonials online. There are literally hundreds. And sometimes people go, my God, there's not too many. And I'm going like, well, no, really, because I want somebody to recognize themselves in what they see online and to recognize the variety of scenarios and language that, you know, are involved. So huge portfolio of testimonials that showcase the depth and breadth of what we do. Case studies as well, fewer of those, but we've got a nice portfolio of those online.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's also been for me about the language that we, we use and that we come across as human. Yeah. And that we allow, we don't, we don't scare people off. Um, we welcome, you know, our customers with a huge variety of knowledge. You know, we will sometimes be working with people who literally haven't got a clue what they need and they might be in a breakdown situation and they just desperately need all the support that they can get. Other times, it's clear that people do know what they need. Whether they understand it is a different thing, but they are literally looking for a specific product and code. Price and delivery are all that matter to that. And they're shopping around and other times we've got customers who are literally designing solutions, they're engineering for tomorrow. So they've got their own bright idea and a blank sheet of paper with some detail on it. But, you know, they're wanting to prototype, develop a system. So we've got such a breadth and it's about appealing to them all. And I do sometimes wonder if the fact that I am absolutely not technical, it's probably not a coincidence that the language that we've used and that human bit, you know, definitely. And that that message of we're really approachable and we'll support you, that that comes through. So there's that element to sort of trust. And I suppose the third and perhaps most tangible way that I've gone about building the brand and the trust is awards. Now, I know some people are really skeptical about awards, um, because they could be a business and an industry in their own right. But, you know, I sit as. We've never paid once to enter, uh, an award and it's never been about the big night out and the glitz of it. Although that's nice when shortlisted. Nice is still when your name is called. It's always been for me, entering awards about proving our credibility, showing that back to the trust. Yeah, we're a real business.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Happy to be scrutinized by judges who come from all walks of life as well. And it's about being visible beyond our own industry. And it's also that huge opportunity when you're entering an award, the opportunity to look back and look forward and so that really kind of reflective piece. Yeah, so. And yeah, to be able to say that you are award winning, I think shows something of, uh, an appetite and, um, ambition and also measuring yourself against others, aren't you? Yeah, completely. Yeah. But it's for me and sometimes I know this is my downfall as well as my strength. It's that continuous improvement mindset as well, um, where you're not prepared to settle, you don't think you've got it all sewn up. You're always looking for area to improve upon, to work upon, to explore, whatever it may be. So, um, yeah, and the export, um, champion piece of the Department for Business and traders are now called 19. They recognized hydraulics online as export champions. We're the only ones in our industry, so that's obviously been a huge feather in our cap as well. But it came. That wasn't anything that we could apply for that came organically. That was just us being watched. Yeah. And recognized. Yeah. Being recognized as a kind of a good egg, an exemplar.

Speaker A: That's a testament to some of the softer sides of the brand that you convey. So that's really about the people behind the business and some of the things that you do in order to champion being a British export business, but also supporting other entrepreneurs on their journey and, and just generally giving back. I think those things are a lot of what you've done is branding, but it's branding by instinct which is the best kind of branding because it's a founder led business, isn't it?

Speaker B: So, yeah, and I think it, it's, it's instinct. And um, again, over the years I, coming back to the journey that I've personally been on, it's been huge, you know, did the very brave thing in 2004 of turning my back on a successful corporate career. Yeah, I was climbing the ladder really nicely. The paychecks were growing and they, that paycheck, you know, it landed in your bank account every month. Starting your own business, there's no guarantees and there were so many sleepless nights. So did this really brave thing of, um, following my heart in more than one way in life and starting over and throwing the safety net away, but just instinctively felt this is the path that I needed to be on, did all that brave stuff and then hid in the background of our own business for the first 13 years because I suddenly thought, oh my God, I'm a woman in this very male dominated industry and it's very technical and I don't know. And I suddenly just had this crisis of confidence and you know, the children were so much younger and then, um, you know, the younger one came along so I was the one to be working the more flexible hours and covering, covering the bases of school and appointments, whatever it needed to be. But I just tucked myself in the background and, and didn't almost believe in myself quite enough to make some of the bolder moves. And it was our first award win at the end of 2017. Local Chamber of Commerce South Cheshire I'd entered us for three awards. They'd run one, run workshops over the summer to promote the awards, explain what the categories were about, what they were looking for, what a good entry would look like. And of the dozen or so categories, there were three that I recognized. I thought, oh my gosh, I could put a really good story together for that. I've got, I've got stuff, I've got data, I've got metrics, I can answer those questions. So I entered us for three, we were shortlisted for three. And in the process of then being judged, that was when I realized I was stepping forward and Mark was stepping back a little bit and it was me leading on that process. So that was, that was a defining moment in some ways. But on the night we won two awards. So on the night we're on stage twice and twice I am crying because it really, really mattered. But in that very moment that evening, I describe it as an epiphany. I literally recognized that being this non technical woman in a technical male dominated industry, it sounds cliche, but it really had been my superpower because I was just seeing things really, really differently. And that night was then just the springboard really for everything that's followed, where I started to believe in myself more and trust my instinct and my gut. Uh, and obviously doors started opening, one being with Manchester Metropolitan University. They'd sponsored one of the awards and within a week of winning that award they were saying, can you come and stand in front of some students and be a guest lecturer, please, and tell your story? And also they were saying, there's this course that we think would be really good for you, Helen. So I, um, was simultaneously student and almost like an extended part of the academic team. Yeah. Just didn't look back after that.

Speaker A: That's brilliant, isn't it? So you were 13 years into the business, you'd been doing all of this stuff by stealth and instinct and all the rest of it. But all the time you had that kind of inner voice that was saying, you're in a man's world, it's a technical engineering world that you don't know, Helen, stay in your lane. Um, you quite rightly and understandably would have seen Mark as being the figurehead for that because he is the engineer. But actually, you know, I mean, a lot of that resonates and it will resonate with pretty much every female entrepreneur that listens, I'm sure, because when you finally realize that it all of those things became the superpower that was driving the business. So all that trust that you're building and all of that everyday language and humanness that you're able to bring into your communications is coming from you not understanding the technical.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And this is a real challenge for technical businesses because they often want to show how expert they are by talking all the technical language. But actually customers are just human beings trying to get a job done.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: I think it's fascinating that that award had been that kind of moment for you. And it's just lovely to hear that story because I.

Speaker B: Well, it was. Yeah.

Speaker A: How many women don't get that?

Speaker B: Uh, I wish I'd kind of. Yeah. I mean, hindsight's a wonderful thing. And I often talk about, um. I think it was Steve Jobs that said, you can't join the dots forward in life, can you? It's only when you look backwards. But when I look at some of the dots in my life now, it's absolutely crazy. But that night was. Was the dot to so many others that included. We won another award really quickly afterwards, um, with the Federation of Small Business. And we became their Northwest, uh, Exporter of the Year. And that led to them, um, so we won the first ones in November. Um, I started going on my first kind of personal development course of any description. In the January that was Manchester Met. In the March, we won another award, Federation Small Business. And that led them, um, to ask me to tell our story. There was an international business festival on in Liverpool. They had got a session on there. Would I be one of their keynote speakers? It's like, whoa, whoa, scary moment. But in that Manchester Met were then like, Helen, right, Have you ever done any of this public speaking before? And I was going, no. And they said, um, we know somebody who's a speaking coach. She'd be brilliant. Would you like us to put you in touch? I'm like, yes. Um, so I then started to just feel the fear and do it anyway. The comfort zone was literally being stretched, you know, by the day. Um, and I guess the final little bit to that story of the superpower and me believing in myself a bit more was that at the end of 2018, so nine years after Mark and I had married, we married five years into the business, I finally changed my name to his, because up until that point. Right, yeah. Uh, I'd kept my old name, really. Still trying to play it down. The fact to people that didn't know is at least that I was his wife. Yes. Prior to that, completely hidden that there was any relationship at all. Because I genuinely believe that if people knew me, they'd think, oh, yeah, she's just his wife. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And actually, it's a family business, isn't it? And that's even more reason to trust it.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, dots. They're interesting.

Speaker A: It's fascinating. I just love the whole story. The most successful B2B brands aren't, um, built on campaigns. They're built on strong foundations. I'm Ann Rimmer from Propelled. I work closely with founders and leadership teams to help them build brands that increase investor Confidence, support profitable growth and stand the test of time. If you believe brands should drive value, not just visibility, you'll feel at home with propelled. And has there been any moments, um, just thinking back on these principles and pillars that you've got, where they've been tested. Has there been times in the business where you've really had to go back to what those principles are and make the right choices?

Speaker B: I suppose we, we live them every day anyway. We've never swerved from them when looking at the, uh, you know, the developments that we've made, they've almost been that compass that we use to sort of navigate. Yeah, they were tested. So we're completely and utterly customer centric. Completely. But that doesn't mean that we will allow customers to take the mickey out of us. Right, yeah. Or jump through hoops unnecessarily. And I'm thinking about occasions and one in particular where a brand new customer, a huge name, a ah, European name, said they wanted to accept, they'd come to us, we'd quoted, they wanted to proceed, place an order, but we needed to then comply with their terms of 60 days credit. We don't offer credit for international customers. We don't, we'll negotiate separate terms but we won't ever put that exposure on ourselves. Yeah. And when it was actually my husband Mark kind of pushed back to sort of say that, no, sorry, we would need, at the very least it would be a deposit up front because it was a special order as well that we were placing on a factory. So heaven forbid the deal had fallen through in any way, we would have been exposed with an order that we'd needed to fulfill and with, with equipment that we possibly couldn't sell on anywhere else. Yeah. Anyway, we pushed back and they came back with a really grotty reply. Words to the effect of, um, well, if you won't offer us credit, you clearly don't value the relationship. So I said, right, hang on a moment, I'll get involved and wrote this firm. But fair response back to the effect that they were the customer. It was their absolute right as to who they chose to spend their money with. But. And explained our position that, you know, we weren't prepared to bankroll, et cetera, et cetera. And it was polite. And then the following week the money just dropped into our bank account. They didn't even acknowledge my email, but it just dropped in. And I think that was a real. There are bullies out there in business and the bigger brands will use their weight and their clout and when you're that smaller player in the supply chain, it's horribly intimidating and you don't want to lose business. Um, but back to the kind of no, sorry, nobody's going to dictate the terms and call the shop. If that's how it's got to be, then it's sorry to see a good order go. But at the same time you don't ever want to feel that you've given somebody the power and it can be, you know, manipulated and abused on occasion.

Speaker A: So yeah, and the problem with uh, that of course is you give there and then they ask again for something else. And it's not the right foundation is it, to build that customer relationship. But um, it's very, very hard to turn money away. And so yeah, I completely align with that. Brilliant, brilliant example. And I think the other thing that I'd be really interested in is so I've spent time looking at your website and I do agree, I really love that the, the down to earthness of it. You're in a very technical market though and there's some quite challenging customer uh, solutions that you've got to help them find. So how do you balance that technical with the brand storytelling? How do you get that right?

Speaker B: Who does that?

Speaker A: Is that you, Helen?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a combination. So we'll have a new website in the new year which I'm desperately excited for. It will be a more grown up version of us. But what's going on behind the scenes, the tech that we're putting in place is really future proofing as well. So very excited for that. We've got within our uh, um, within our website we have an area that we call the technical knowledge hub and I appreciate that the moment anybody publishes anything online it can be the inspiration for the next person. So funny enough there are now a number of players within the industry who have similar things. But it was something that I again recognized really on was we've always been about knowledge and expertise and I wanted a way of showcasing that. So it was, it's an area that we've always had where we've got these, you know, articles and insights which obviously they reinforce our brand but they also are very good for um, SEO AIO GEO as it is now as well. Um, and we have ebooks and resources as well. I sometimes wish that I did understand more technically about hydraulic engineering because I'm so passionate about hydraulics online and what we stand for, you know, and our, on our vision and it's a madly bold vision by the way. I don't. We've said the V word yet, but.

Speaker A: No, we have.

Speaker B: You should say, you know that our sense of purpose, which was about that customer centric, independent player and um, the vision is for Hydraulics Online to be the world's leading fluid power solutions provider and to be that hub, that marketplace that kind of connects this very fragmented industry and it's madly, madly bold. And I'll often laugh and say, yeah, we won't get there in my lifetime, but the brand can. So we act with that. I've always acted with that in mind about the idea that Hydraulics Online will way outlive us because it needs to, it should do. Um, but in all of that, this knowledge and this expertise is a big, big piece of who, who we are and what the brand stands for and the very physical representation of that online through lots of articles and um, knowledge based content.

Speaker A: You've got quite different audiences I would imagine. You'll have engineers but you'll also have procurement and you know, just leadership. So I suppose the way your site is, the content, they're able to find whatever it is they need, whether it's very technical or not, or they just want that confidence and reassurance in the company that's there as well, isn't it?

Speaker B: That content we have um, created with some of the big brands within the industry. And I'd love for Hydraulics Online to do more of that, more of that, right, collaborative piece up the supply chain even more. Because you know, we're all missing a trick. If we're, we as Hydraulics Online, capturing new demand for UK PLC International is such a big part of what we do, then we're missing a trick. If as a supply chain we can't capture more of that business, it's not cannibalizing anything else that's going on and just going back to the knowledge piece, we have a newsletter, um, and every month consistently now for the last couple of years, we get 300 new sign ups every month.

Speaker A: Wow, that's impressive. Where does that come from do you think?

Speaker B: Where's that? It's literally all over. It's organic but it's also I think, representative of um, the thirst for knowledge that's out there, people needing to learn. And it's also indicative of uh, the fact that the world is starved of engineers now. There's not enough of them out there and in many ways customers are looking for more support than they ever were because there's almost a generation, I think, um, of engineers missing. So it's showing that thirst for knowledge, for guidance and that the technical expertise is valued and, and saw. And yes, price has to be good, delivery needs to be good, but it's that other corner of the triangle as well, knowing that you've actually got that knowledge and expertise, um, sourced as well.

Speaker A: So can I ask you then, just really interested because I work with a lot of international companies and one of the struggles tends to be how to market themselves on a global scale.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you're doing that from the uk, so some of them might have offices overseas and so on. How have you approached that international growth? And I'm guessing that people are finding you. So it's very much, uh, an online, a digital marketing space, is it?

Speaker B: Completely. So, I mean it sounds. There's so much at play here. So back to the, you know, you can't make people buy what they don't buy need. So it's about being online being found and then, you know, look, we're, we're, we're British the world over. SPEAKS ENGLISH I think any business in the uk not considering that and um, considering how that if nothing else, you can start to leverage that for international trade, then you're missing a trick. People would often say, oh my gosh, you must speak so many languages. It's like, no, it's English all the way. Even when there are technical conversations and gosh, how many currencies, you know, the number of forex calls we get with companies offering to help us with our currency requirements. Well, we don't have any because it's sterling. And certainly in engineering, for all that we might bash ourselves with as a country, consider that there's so much wrong. You know, the UK is still looked on as an area of expertise for engineering. So back to everything I've said before in terms of building the brand and credentials etc. In terms of the international piece though, I can also think of, uh, three significant moves that we've made. So we didn't start out on hydraulicsonline.com we started out on.co.uk because we couldn't get our hands on the dot com at the time. Somebody had bought the name, never done anything with it and was squatting on it. M back in 2012, Mark had had a rear a near fatal car accident and um, was out of work for three months and for whatever reason, whilst in his period of recovery, suddenly one day decided to go and find hydraulicsonline.com as a domain name and we found it was up for sale so we secured that and went live on it. The following year, around the same time, and actually off the back of Mark's accident, it kind of what the chaos and the trauma that we went through at the time also made us realize that there's no way that we wanted to lose the business. And it refocused, from my point of view, the need to really bolster our operations. So we went with ISO9001 quality management for the first time. Um, and I chose the British Standards Institute for their brand for a start, for the fact that it wasn't going to be a way of cutting corners if we were going to get the accreditation. I wanted to be put through our paces. And another reason for choosing to pursue ISO9001 was because a number of customers, particularly international ones, as part of their due diligence for a prospective new vendor, were asking us about, did we have a quality management system, did we hold ISO 9000 or 1? And we couldn't put a tick in that box, so it was time to do so. So that was the second thing. And then the third piece of the international Jigsaw was a rebrand. I said earlier on, we've had kind of three iterations of how we look. And, um, we went live with the brand logo, um, identity as we appear now in October 2018. By that point, I knew that I wanted to reposition hydraulics online from being a UK business who happened to export to creating this identity of a truly global brand and name. That was when we literally used a globe to become the O in online. Um, if you were to look at our logo, you would then see there's like a swirl that wraps around that globe that is fluid. And we have the tagline of fluid powering the world, because fluid power. And I'm really proud to say that that was a team effort as well. We only got an agency involved at the very end to polish our own sort of scribbles.

Speaker A: But amazing.

Speaker B: You know, the tagline and the concept was all our own.

Speaker A: Yeah. So that whole language around knowing how you wanted to position, you know, I think that is often missed. Companies think that they can change their identity and they can maybe put a tagline on and tell a different story, but actually they miss really thinking about how they want to position in the market and therefore, uh, what are the things that they really want to attach to their brand. So I think, you know, again, you've kind of all between you, you figured that out and you've got that piece right. So, yeah, it's amazing. So what's the end game? How do you See yourself and Mark as the business progresses. Do you see this? That the children will come into the business and it'll remain a family business at some stage?

Speaker B: No, the children won't come into the business. There are many of them. We're parents to seven. We're a complicated blended family. Mark tragically lost his twin brother seven years ago and we took our niece and nephew in as well. So, um, and despite having that tribe, we know we won't ever be a second generation family business and we're fine with that. Um, you know, at some point we'll need to think about the brand beyond us, but we would never have dreamt of grooming. And that's what I would call it, grooming one of the children to be that next generation. You know, I've referenced at the top of the session. I've done a lot of mentoring over the years, supported Manchester Met's delivery of the Help to Grow management program for two years and worked with 30 business leaders over that period alongside the day job and met such a depth and breadth of business owner or leader. And a couple spring to mind where, uh, they were that next generation in a family business. And um, one in particular. He was so unhappy. He was so unhappy. But he felt absolutely obligated to step into the business that had been his dad's, his brother stepped sideways and, you know, he stepped in. Business is tough. It is absolutely not the easiest path to choose in life. But I do think that as the founders, whilst you've, you know, you're building the car and you're getting, you're putting the fuel in and you're getting it from neutral into first and into second. And when I think of that as an analogy now and the momentum that we now have were the children, one of them to come in and take it on. There is a momentum there and a direct travel that didn't exist when we set out.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: But I think that the luxury that you have as founders is that sense of purpose and why this really matters and you are making the choice to embark on this crazy journey.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think that that sense of purpose isn't necessarily going to be as strong and as compelling for that next generation now. It may well be. It absolutely may well be. But there's also a timing thing that that next generation have got to be the right people for the job. Bringing the right skills and experience into the. Can't be there a merit.

Speaker A: No. I've watched something this morning by the Financial Times. They've done a survey. Um, apparently there's some figures out that show the number of CEO quitting is growing and there's a kind of declining number of them. Um, and they start the film out with The Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses Program that I was fortunate enough to go on, which is, is for small businesses, I think. Oh, this is interesting because they're talking about business owners, but actually as the film goes on, they're talking about career CEOs. My reaction to it is if you're running somebody else's business and they paid a lot of money to do that, but things get tough, it's natural that you'll quit. When you run a business that you founded, there isn't that option.

Speaker B: No, you can't quit and you're driven

Speaker A: by something else that isn't about dealing with your career, your cv, your salary, all of those things. So perhaps if we had more founder led businesses, we might have a stronger, more resilient business community.

Speaker B: You're absolutely right. And it's an interesting one because obviously, I mean, Covid. Crikey. I mean it was uncomfortable for everyone. We were fortunate as a business that we sort of traded through.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and in many ways our proposition and what we stand for came to the fore because our independence, our customer centricity, everything had been thrown up in the air and we became this kind of lighthouse in the storm. I think in a way for many, but by the same token, the weight of responsibility as the owner and the founder, it's all on you.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Uh, and even, you know, it's a really hard time doing business. I mean people might be listening to me now thinking, oh, she's got it all. She's. She got it all sussed. Oh my God, no, absolutely not. And, and there's times when I'm happy to. I felt trapped in my own business because I can't walk away. I can't just walk away. But the one thing about founder led businesses or family businesses I would say is that long term vision and that sense of purpose, the sense of values and a sense of doing the right thing and that's not easy to navigate in a world where there is less loyalty than ever. It's so much more transactional. I mean when I think of online now to how it was in 2000 for, you know, the, it's crazy. And then we talk about AI and da da da da. But we do have the opportunity to think what is the right thing to do. And um, if there's one thing I'm a, I'm a big lover of Quotes. And there are many that spring to mind. But the one that's come now is the idea of, uh, there's no softer pillow than a clear conscience. I can sleep really easily every single night. Not just because I'm shattered, but because, you know, I believe in what we're doing. We're doing it right today. I've got richer in life. Yes. Am I proud of what we're doing? Am I proud of the legacy that we're building? Am I proud of the example that we've set for our children? Yes. I just think that, that as a, as a mindset it's. Yeah. An increasingly fickle and short term. Yeah. Focus that the world has where everyone's looking for uh, that immediate satisfaction, aren't they? And then it's like onto the next thing and if that person at the top can't set the example and can't think long term and hasn't got skin in the game, then is on to the next opportunity to line their own pocket potentially. I, uh, mean that's oversimplifying it. There will always be other reasons involved. But that sense of purpose and direction and value, it has to come from the top ultimately.

Speaker A: Definitely. So kind of coming towards the end of our uh, interview then, one of the things that I'd love to ask you is what advice would you give to other B2B founders trying to build this enduring business and brand that lasts? What are the key things that you would advise them?

Speaker B: It would come back to the purpose, the why and the vision. Um, and um, here I'm drawing on my experience as a mentor. It was such an eye opener, that period of my life a couple of years ago where working with Manchester met Uni, helping them deliver help to grow management. I never had any say in who I was going to be matched with in terms of business owner, leader, uh, age, gender, industry sector, uh, size of organization, problems that might come into the conversation. It was kind of like speed blind dating constantly. I loved it. The mental agility and the compassion and everything that it demanded of me because people genuinely were investing their time and money onto this course and they were reaching out, weren't they? They wanted that sounding board and that safe space and genuinely uh, like a fresh perspective which is absolutely what I could bring to every conversation, being that outsider. But I was consistently staggered at uh, the number of people in business who don't know why they are in business. They don't know why that company exists, you know, and it's back to Simon Sinek's Golden Circle. Of knowing what we do versus how we do it and how we compare and are positioned in the marketplace versus that inner circle of what is the why. Yeah. And again, I recognize that we've always had that clear sense of why. So that sense of purpose is absolutely crucial in my mind. And then it's back to the vision piece that we just mentioned. And, um. No. Yeah. Not having that. Not knowing where you're aiming and not knowing whether something is a distraction or actually a genuine pull in the right direction. Yeah. And I would say that if you have your purpose and, um, you have your vision, they're not just fluffy words and nonsense. They literally are, uh, your A to B and everything else is just the detail in between. And they are also like the bookends of your brand story. They have to be. Not everybody will necessarily get it. But your brand story, I just think really matters. And we've all got brands that we favor because we just feel that connection with them. And it does come back to trust.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the belief that there's an opportunity to build a relationship, even if it's in a transactional way with a high street store, you still feel a connection there. So for me, it would be understanding why you are doing this, because there are going to be times when you are so unbelievably tested. Yeah. And you are going to question why you're doing it. So. And, um, where you want to take it. You know, we could have built a very different business to the one that we have now if we'd chosen two. But we knew which path we wanted to take ourselves on. And then, um. Yeah. That brand piece is how you then bring that to life and take everybody else, not just customers, but your team and other stakeholders on that journey with you.

Speaker A: Beautifully. Pop couldn't have put it better. And I love that you've talked today about trust, um, and how important and integral that's been for you in the business and growing the business. Because I've been working in B2B for 30 years. Um, and I see trust now being the most critical competitive element that you need. Because I just think we are in a transactional world and we are in a technology driven world and we're all wanting to get back to relationships and people.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: And for things to have meaning to us. So even in a business context, even when you're buying hydraulics and engineering equipment, you do want to know what's behind that business and what makes them tick and who you're giving your money to. And you also want to have Some kind of a, uh, mutual partnership relationship that you believe both in them and they believe in you. So I think everything you've done, you've done by instinct. But also you've had really good grounding coming from the bank, um, being able to just see what actually makes a business work.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, that would be the other thing I would say is that I know that one thing I brought to this was that cross functional perspective. I've never specialized in anything. I've been that generalist. And when I look back on some of those projects that I was involved in in my early, uh, career, you know, they were huge. Um, Clays was, you know, preparing the small business banking sector for the arrival of the euro, the single Europe, single European currency. You know, when I worked for a big life insurance company, I worked with the head of partnerships, helping him win partnership deals. So new delivery channels for our insurance, um, product portfolio. Yeah, helping him win a deal. And then having won the deal, it would be on me to implement it across the business. So that involved, you know, finance and actuaries and marketing and call centers and operations and legal. And I think as a business owner you have to have sight of all of that. You really, really do. Um, and, um, to know where your skills end and where you need to bring expertise in if you haven't already got it within the business.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So many of us don't realise that when we start out, we start out and we don't think about all that's needed from us and, and knowing when to reach out and do courses and meet others who can connect us. So. Yeah. So tell me then, is there a business brand that you admire or you're inspired by? Because I'm trying to find and um, want to kind of feature, uh, companies like hydraulics online that are doing good things and that are clearly positioned but it's difficult to find these. Generally, businesses that are very niche go under the radar. Uh, are there any that you can think of that inspire you?

Speaker B: Gosh, no. And that's not to say that they don't exist. When I think of brands that I'm drawn to, it's trust every time and it's trust that then you know you're paying more than you might need to if you go somewhere else. But that's because if you're buying something where that service, that expertise, that product quality, the. If it's going to go wrong, they're going to look after me. If this product fails, if I need to return it, it's that, it's that the relationship doesn't end when the money's hit the bank account.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's been wonderful. Thank you. Fascinating business and just a, uh, perfect true example of all the right things from a branding point of view that you've done along the way.

Speaker B: So, yeah, really, really pleased to speak to you. Thanks so much. You're very welcome.