The Seven Pillars of Preeminence with Glen Jackson, Part 1 - From the Vault

Speaker A: Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a, uh, conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy Stanley and today I'll be your host because today I have my friend Glenn Jackson in the studio with me, which means I get to ask the questions. Thanks so much for joining us, Glenn.

Speaker B: Thanks, Andy. It's a real privilege to be with you. And thanks so much for having me. Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, this is going to be fun. As some of you know, um, Glenn is the co founder of Jackson Spaulding, one of the most, if not the most respected marketing communications agencies in the Southeast, with a significant and growing national presence. In fact, um, I was just telling Glenn this morning I ran into a friend of mine who has just, uh, employed your organization to help them, um, walk through a very sticky situation. And we'll talk about some of those a little bit later on. Jackson Spalding has earned a share of awards for their excellent client work. Um, from public relations, creative work, um, to really all elements of storytelling, especially as it relates to marketing. They've got over 130 team members. Uh, they've been ranked. This is so cool. They've been ranked as the best agency to work for in the city of Atlanta. Some of your clients include Coca Cola, Toyota, Chick Fil, a Publix, Delta Orkin, uh, just to name the few. Now the reason I asked Glenn to join me today is to talk about a topic we have never talked about before. Because I kind of think Glenn created this at least, uh, he's taken a word and built a business model around it. And the word is preeminence. So specifically we're going to talk about what it means to have, to build and to sustain a, as Glenn refers to it, a preeminent organization. And as I just mentioned, Jackson Spalding works for some very well known brands, brands that would be considered without question preeminent in the marketplace and in their industry. So, um, this is Glenn's word. It's a value he has worked hard to weave into the fabric of his company. And it's something all of us are interested in, whether we ever use the term or not. So, Glenn, let's, uh, start with the definition. What is preeminence, especially within the context of the marketplace?

Speaker B: Well, I define preeminence, Andy, as extraordinary excellence, once reached and sustained, creates a competitive advantage. I'll say it again. Preeminence is extraordinary excellence, once reached and sustained, creates a competitive advantage. Extraordinary excellence is the highest degree of excellence possible. What makes it extraordinary, uh, is that excellence is consistently first rate in Thought and execution. So the ceiling of excellence is always being raised higher and higher. It never plateaus. And the sustaining piece of the definition is absolutely key. Um, there is an unflinching, unswerving commitment, a real sense of staying power and being the best you can be each and every day when you're a preeminent brand. So there's a relentless drive and a never resting on your laurels along with the relentless pursuit. There is an egoless leadership mindset, too.

Speaker A: That's something I want us to come back to, because the whole idea of egoless leadership, I'm not sure that's a thing. It is. I've not seen that very often, but keep going. We're going to come back to egoless leadership.

Speaker B: Yes. So you need to be confident, Andy. You need to be confident, but leave your egos at the door. And I see a lot of that with preeminent companies. It's what Jim Collins talks about, the genius of the. And relentless and egoless. It's a combination of both. It's being gracious and ambitious. It's being humble and hungry.

Speaker A: It's. And the competitive advantage side of this is what.

Speaker B: Yeah, the competitive advantage is that, um, they're really. What I've seen and observed is there are three specific benefits to the competitive advantage piece. Increased market share, increased m. Momentum or top spend. There's just incredible momentum and then also increased morale for the long haul, culturally. Those are the three.

Speaker A: Okay, we're going to circle back around to the connection between competitive advantage and preeminence. But first, why and when did you start studying preeminence? Where did the work? Because when I first saw this and looked at your content around this, I thought, what a great word. Um, because it's not static, it's fluid, as you've already told us. Um, it's the whole idea of preeminence and excellence is, on one hand, you're never finished, and yet you have taken sort of an elusive goal and made it concrete enough that a company can actually shoot for this. And at the same time, as you just said, never settle for. So where did all that come from?

Speaker B: I started seeing the word preeminent or preeminence being used a great deal in meetings. Clients would say, we want to be a preeminent brand, or they're a preeminent company, and et cetera, et cetera. So I was just curious. So I looked up the definition and really didn't like what I saw. I thought the definition, kind of the tried and true definition was Kind of missing in some gravity and weight bearing. Uh, I talked a lot about being superior or, you know, a notch above the rest. Uh, but I felt like we needed to go deeper with the definition. So I just developed my own definition based on observing various brands I respect and admire in business, and many of these were privileged to work for at Jackson Spalding.

Speaker A: Well, Glenn, as I alluded to, um, the whole idea of preeminence being characterized by there's no ceiling of excellence. It's the, you know, the standards being raised higher and higher, and it never plateaus. So I think the challenge for the word, even though I love it, and I'm sure our podcast listeners love the word, how do you get there? I mean, is there something that tips a leader off? Okay, we have become a preeminent organization because there's not a finish line associated with this. This is not a goal that you put a check by. This is a constant quest, and yet there has to be something you can measure to make it somewhat satisfying. So how do you quantify that?

Speaker B: That's a great question. And I believe there is, um, a quantification factor. Absolutely. And the litmus test really is, do various organizations aspire to achieve what you have sustained?

Speaker A: Okay, say that again. That's a big idea.

Speaker B: Yeah. The litmus test is, do various organizations, sometimes your competitors.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Do they aspire to achieve what you've sustained?

Speaker A: So peers in an industry look at your organization, and as you said that you may be direct competitors or even indirect competitors or maybe in a different industry, and they look at the organization itself, not the product, but the organization itself, and say, wow, we wish our organization was more like that organization.

Speaker B: Yes. And, um, a lot of the brands you referenced earlier, Publix, Chick Fil, A Coke, A lot of their competitors, aspire to do what they're doing. Um, and they want to achieve what premium brands have sustained. So what happens is, they had your way. Literally. They come see you, they want to see your office environment. They want to meet you, they want to learn about your business and your leadership philosophies. When a lot of businesses want to come visit you, it's always a good sign. That's a good sign. Um, and they come and they soak up what you share with them. Like a sponge, Andy. They just listen. They're fascinated with what they hear, and they hear things that you don't even realize you're telling them, but they're just taking it all in.

Speaker A: Preeminent organizations know more than they think they know.

Speaker B: Is that correct?

Speaker A: Yes, they think, oh, uh, what do we have to share? What are we going to say? And then, uh, somebody gets there and begins asking questions and it starts pouring out and you realize, well, I know a lot more than I thought I knew because I've been in this for so long. Is that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So this is more than a reputation with customers or clients. This is developing a reputation with peers and competitors.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: So this, and I think that's why I love the word and I love this discussion because in our businesses or in our nonprofits, we think in terms of doing a better and better job for customers and clients. This is looking at the organization through a completely different lens. It's asking how are we doing or as an organization, not in terms of customer and client relationship, but really our relationship and reputation in the broader, broader world. Correct?

Speaker B: Yes, spot on.

Speaker A: Alright, so let's get specific. You've identified seven pillars that you believe are foundational to all preeminent companies. And that, um, really any company that's perceived as preeminent in their industry or in the marketplace in general are built on these seven pillars. I guess, whether they recognize it or not, this is something that you have observed and have begun talking about. And again, as we talk about here all the time, when you identify what works and you put words around it and talk about it, you, it helps an organization stay focused on that thing that may be their secret sauce until somebody said, hey, I think I've been able to put the recipe in words. So what are these seven pillars?

Speaker B: Well, the seven pillars are one trust 2. Relationship building 3. Marketing communications 4. Assessment 5. The cultural torch of servant leadership. Very, very important. Six fanatical focus and seven remarkable resiliency.

Speaker A: Okay, well, we're going to talk about all seven of these, but we're not going to talk about all seven of these in this episode of the Leadership podcast. We're going to talk about three today and then if we have time, I want to ask you a question that is a little bit off topic as it relates to the seven pillars. And then next month we'll come back and wrap this up. So, uh, let's begin with pillar number one. Trust.

Speaker B: Trust. Trust is the most important five letter word in all of business. Uh, Fred Smith, the founder of FedEx, said this recently, at the end of the day, we are all essentially selling trust. And could not agree with him more. Um, trust is a function of character and competency. And as Covey writes about in his book, nothing moves faster than the speed of trust. Um, character and competency work Together, and that helps create that speed, that acceleration on the character piece. Andy, your definition is spot on. In that character is the will to do what's right as defined by God, regardless of personal cost. I, um, believe strongly that watch your character, it becomes your destiny. On the character side, um, I believe that character success always supersedes circumstance success.

Speaker A: So let me see if I can say that back. Character success always supersedes circumstance success. And by circumstance, you're talking about what actually happens in the marketplace, Correct? Wow.

Speaker B: Correct. It always does. And if you lead with circumstance success, the irony of that is that you'll lose out on the character success and you won't succeed in the circumstance. If you lead with character success, you will always, always take advantage of the circumstance.

Speaker A: Glenn, again, the idea of character success, again, not individual character, the character of a company, um, this is such a big idea, and it's so important to you. Recently I heard you tell a story of early on in the life of your company. You just started, your wife's pregnant, you're living in an apartment, you and your partner are trying to figure out, is this even going to work? And then you had a conversation, um, with a new friend. I think on the soccer field, you were coaching a four year old or fourth grade soccer team. Tell our audience that story. Because I think this more than anything captures the essence and the emotion and the power of the idea of the character piece preceding the circumstance piece.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, we were just getting rolling in 1995. I was coaching soccer and one, uh, of the dads called me and asked to meet with me. And I met with him and he said they represent a very big company, global company, and told us about a promotion they were doing and they had hired a New York agency. But he wanted to learn a little bit more about what we do just in case we, uh, might could work with them. So, long story short, um, he told us about what the New York agency had in mind for this promotion. We saw some gaps. We worked on a plan over the weekend and sent him our ideas and told him no pride of ownership. Give this to the New York agency.

Speaker A: So you weren't looking for new business. Here's some ideas and send them to our competitors. So what happened?

Speaker B: Uh, he calls back, uh, two weeks later and, um, offers to pay us for the work. And I refused. Um, it wasn't the right thing to do. We did not write this to get paid. We, uh, wrote this because we wanted to sharpen our saw and show them how we think for long term benefits and I told Bo Spaulding, uh, my great partner, about the decision. He said, you made the right call.

Speaker A: Wow. Now, because when I first heard you tell this story, my first thought was, wait a minute. Accepting payment for your good ideas. There's nothing wrong with that. So we're talking about character. So what was it in you and your partner that said no? Even though we really need a paycheck at this point, we're going to take great ideas, hand it to someone who you have no business relationship with, who's going to hand it off to somebody who, again, could one day be a direct competitor. How does that connect with character?

Speaker B: I think because, um, of the character piece, the last thing we wanted was to try to take a piece of business away from an agency that had already engaged them. We just wanted to maybe plant a seed down the road for them to think about us for some other promotions that they might need help on.

Speaker A: And that's exactly what happened?

Speaker B: That's correct.

Speaker A: How does this, uh, tell us the end of the story?

Speaker B: Yeah. A couple of weeks later, he calls back and says, hey, Glenn, uh, you didn't know this when I came to see you, but, um, we were frustrated with what the agency in New York was giving us, and, uh, we met this morning and we let them go, and we've hired you guys. And by the way, we fed extra you a check to get, uh, you started, and let's, uh, get going today. So off we went.

Speaker A: So, within the context of your definition of trust, trust is a function of character and competency. And the thing I like about the story is you demonstrated both. You gave this guy great ideas. That's your competency. But character was, hey, we're not going to charge you for this because, uh, we don't have an actual relationship with you or your organization. And so both of these are important, correct?

Speaker B: Yes. And on the competency piece, m, it's all about bringing to the table your acumen, your intelligence, your brain power, your quicksilver mind to show, um, the stakeholders you're working with how you think. So that's where the competency piece comes in. For me, character is about your credibility, and competency is about your reliability. And they're the alchemy of making trust move with tremendous speed and effectiveness and eventually deliver results. Andy.

Speaker A: Credibility and reliability. That's great. Glenn, you're convinced that, um, trust is a peculiar resource. I love that phrase. What do you mean by that? How is trust a peculiar resource? Peculiar in the sense that it's rare or.

Speaker B: Yeah. And peculiar is A hard word to say you're doing well over there. Um, it's peculiar in that the more you have it, the more you have trust and use it. The resourcefulness of trust increases compared to such things as water and energy and oil. Uh, the more you use them, oftentimes those resources can diminish. So this is never the case with the trust resource. It always expands when tapped into the right way.

Speaker A: Well, trust and character, and to some extent even competency are terms that are fun to throw around. But at the end of the day, do they really contribute to the bottom line? And I realize it's somewhat of a rhetorical question. Obviously you believe they do or we wouldn't be sitting here. Um, but for the skeptic or for the person that says, yeah, this sounds like motivational speakers, this sounds like the guy we had at our conference last year. And everybody cheered, but then we all just went back to work to do our jobs. Um, help our audience understand the direct connection between trust, especially as it relates to corporate character and the bottom line.

Speaker B: I think there is a tangible connection between the two. Um, there are studies out there that have shown that high trust companies outperform low trust companies up to 300%. And that's a big number.

Speaker A: That's a big number.

Speaker B: That's a Watson Wyatt survey, uh, from a while back, but still, I think has merit. This shows you just that trust is such a powerful multiplier.

Speaker A: And is it perceived trust or is it actual trust? I realize perception is reality to some extent, but in terms of, uh, these studies and your personal experience, I mean, everybody gives off the perception that we're a trustworthy company. I mean, that's what marketing's about. It's what advertising is. But you're talking about actual trust.

Speaker B: It is actual, living, breathing trust. Absolutely. Yeah. There's actual, um, real, serious, tangible trust to this. And there are measurable outcomes to trust. Covey talks a lot about this. He says there too, it's speed and reduction of cost. So what happens is there's increased speed with trust. Companies make quicker decisions to engage you because they trust you, and that reduces your cost because it takes less time to get going. And conversely, there's slower speed and higher costs for companies low in the trust area. It just takes longer. They're spending more time, more energy, more resources to get going. Um, so the way I kind of describe it is that the trust gives you a tailwind, Andy, while the lack of trust creates a headwind.

Speaker A: That's really good.

Speaker B: And I'll take the Tail end.

Speaker A: And that's something that all of us experience relationally. So that's not a foreign concept. But again, like a lot of these terms you're using to bring this into a corporate context, that makes a lot of sense. A lot more we could talk about as it relates to trust. Let's go to pillar number two, relationship building. Why is relationship building key?

Speaker B: It is absolutely essential. Um, relationship building is all about, um, with preeminent companies. They are relationally rich and they have relational wealth. I, um, define relationship building as establishing and investing in relationships that genuinely matter to you. Um, the investing piece is critical and you need to be very genuine about it. People know when you're genuine by your sincerity and having a long term, low pressure mindset and the relationships you've established.

Speaker A: I doubt anybody would disagree with that. But I'm not sure there's any new information there. So you believe there's a big difference between relationship building and what most people would consider networking and sort of the general terms we throw around because everybody understands relationships are important. Can you go a little deeper on that? What's different about this pillar than what any company would embrace in terms of the importance of relationships?

Speaker B: Mhm. Uh, it's apples and oranges. Networking is about meeting people, whereas relationship building is about investing in people. Networking, uh, is a task. Relationship building is a commitment. Um, networking is the typical way for most organizations and relationship building is the better way. I think and believe very strongly that networking is about talking and taking and relationship building is about listening and learning. Um, at our agency, for example, we have just totally banished the word networking. We don't use it. Um, what we talk about is relationship building. We call this R and B music. And you play the music and you invest in the relationship. Long term, there's no pressure and good things happen over time.

Speaker A: That's a helpful distinction. Networking versus relationship building. But what does that look like? What do relationship builders actually do that's different than networking?

Speaker B: Well, um, I'll tell you what they don't do. First of all, they never sell. They never sell. Um, they are real. They are accessible and helpful. They listen, they follow up, they care. They spend time and energy on your behalf. And I think that the best relationship builders do four things exceptionally well. They connect, investors personalize and observe. So they're always helping repeat those.

Speaker A: Uh, that's good.

Speaker B: They connect, they invest, they personalize and they observe. So relationship builders are always helping you connect with other people. They'll say, hey, Andy, I know somebody you need to meet. Go See, Sally, I'm going to get out of the way. You guys get together with your team and meet, and I think it'll be beneficial. So they're always connecting, and then they're also investing time and energy in relationships. They're willing to see you and talk to you and invest that time. And they personalize really well. For example, Frank Blake wrote, what, 100, 150 handwritten notes every weekend when you had him on for Home Depot. That's, uh, a great personalizing. Personalizers send notes, they send articles, they send books, they personalize the relationship. Well, then finally, I think relationship builders are great observers. Um, they are very, very high on emotional intelligence. And most of them, a lot of them, are introverts. And you can be a great relationship builder and be an introvert. You don't have to be an extrovert. I define emotional intelligence as this. It's trusting your intuition, it's factoring in your observations, and it's controlling your emotions. You never get flustered to do what? To make a timely decision and then take a timely step. Emotional intelligence is a flexible skill. You can work on it, you can get better at it, and you can really make it work for you.

Speaker A: So we have trust, we have relationship building, and then this third one, marketing communications. This is something that you love to talk about. So what do you mean by marketing communications and specifically, how does it tie to preeminence?

Speaker B: Well, um, we do a lot of it as a marketing communications agency at Jackson Spaulding. And I believe that every organization, large or small, has a brand bank account. And every day is your opportunity to put deposits into that brand bank account. And a brand is a promise always kept. So the deposits you're making are all about those commitments to keeping your promise. M. I think the best brand ambassadors are what I would call their brand polishers. We'll talk more about that. And I think they realize very much that everything they say is heard and everything they do is seen. And they realize that everywhere they go, they represent the brand. And they're always very cognizant of that fact and do it extremely well in an effortless way.

Speaker A: So in a preeminent organization, I guess the ultimate goal is for everybody who's employed or everybody at every level of the organization. They feel some. They feel the gravity of the brand. They feel responsibility. They feel they are stewards to some extent of the brand. And this is, uh, sort of a fluid way for there to be marketing communications. Is that correct?

Speaker B: Correct, Andy. And they're all marketing Communications professionals. Everybody who works for you, they're in

Speaker A: that field, whether they realize it or not.

Speaker B: We call our receptionist at js, uh, you're, uh, our vice president of first impressions. That's her job and everybody's got a role.

Speaker A: You've got a couple of great stories that illustrate this. Pick your favorite and talk, uh, about that.

Speaker B: Well, I've got one. Uh, recently I ran into, uh, Don Keough's son in law. Mr. Uh, Keough was president of the Coca Cola Company for many, many years, had a prodigious influence on Coca Cola's trajectory as a business. And um, he said that, um, Mr. Keough said that, um, he was asked once, what defines a successful day for you, Mr. Keough? He was asked that and he said, I always want the answer to this question to be yes when I'm driving home each day. Did I polish the Coke Bran just a little bit today?

Speaker A: That's amazing. Did I polish the Coke brand just a little bit today?

Speaker B: And he elaborated on that and said it's all about the little things. The polishing could just be a lunch with an employee or a conversation I have with a shareholder, or a letter I write. I always want to make sure during the day I have done some sort of polishing for our, uh, brand. Wow. And I think brand polishers have that

Speaker A: mindset and that's a value every single person at every single level in an organization can embrace.

Speaker B: Correct?

Speaker A: Polishing the brand.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: So for an organization to be preeminent, there need to be a lot of brand polishers.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And you got to have the mindset that everybody's a brand polisher in some way or another.

Speaker A: This third pillar is marketing communications. Uh, when we hear the word marketing, we think so many different things and marketing has changed so much. What comes to mind when you think marketing? What are you talking about specifically?

Speaker B: Well, um, from my vantage point, I think we are experiencing a watershed moment in the field of marketing. Um, there's a massive, massive convergence between three types of media. Earned, paid, and owned. So the earned media is, you know, it's the publicity piece, you're earning coverage. The paid media is the advertising piece. But it's the owned media that is really, really gaining in speed right now and importance.

Speaker A: What is owned media?

Speaker B: The owned media piece is, um, everything you literally own. It's your channel you control. It's your blog, it's your website, it's your video, it's your piece of photography, it's your social media platform. There's tremendous brand portability with owned media right now. And it also gives you, um, a great deal of versatility and longevity in terms of how you use these different owned, um, pieces.

Speaker A: But, Glenn, I'm sure you would agree that whether we're talking about earned media, paid media, owned media, and I love those distinctions. When it comes to communication and communicating, there's some basic things that never change, right?

Speaker B: They are. There are two, and the two things are one, um, communications will always be about communicating with clarity and integrity to the critical audiences you want to positively impact over time. So no matter what type of owned tool you're using, whether it's video or anything else, you always want to make sure that goal is reached. Are we communicating with clarity and integrity to the critical audiences we want to reach and positively impact over time? That's essential. And then communications as a whole is really like a wheel. And what we do a lot for our clients is that we help them determine the proper speed of acceleration for that communications wheel. And there are six spokes of that wheel that will always be very, very important. And these six spokes are. The first spoke is the message. Determine what your message is. Make sure it's memorable and repeatable. The second spoke are the messengers. Who do we have communicating that message? The third spoke is timing. What's the best timing to communicate something? The fourth spoke is tone, which is your nonverbal piece of communications. You really want to think that through, Andy. The fifth spoke is place. Where's the best place for us to communicate something? An announcement, A piece of exciting news. Imagine, for example, if Lincoln didn't go to Gettysburg to give the Gettysburg Address. That was the right place. Or Dr. King didn't go to, um, the Lincoln memorial to give his I have a dream speech. It's the right place. And then the final spoke is tools such as photography, videography, infographics, and the various uses of websites.

Speaker A: That's a, uh, podcast in and of itself right there to think through message messengers. Let m me see if I get them right. Timing, tone, place, and tools. Wow. And so when you sit down with clients and customers, these are things you talk about. But at the same time, within the firm, as you think about, how do we become preeminent messaging about your organization in general? You go through this same grid we do.

Speaker B: We use it a lot. And, uh, it's very helpful. Very helpful.

Speaker A: Glenn. As I mentioned earlier, we're going to cover the other four pillars of a preeminent company next month. But before we go, your company has a reputation, um, for being extraordinarily helpful for companies that are in crisis, especially brand crisis. And, um, without giving away all of your secrets, um, on our podcast, I think it would be really great for you give us a snapshot of what do you tell a company who, um, is having a brand crisis, because you've worked with some very, very high profile companies to help them navigate some very difficult waters when it comes to brand crisis. So would you talk just a few minutes about that before we wrap up, uh, this episode of the podcast?

Speaker B: Sure, Andy. Happy to do that. Um, first, I think it's important to understand that there is a difference between a reputational challenge and a reputational crisis. And you don't want to overreact to the challenge to create the crisis.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've both seen organizations basically announce that there's a problem and no one knew about it until they started talking about it because it wasn widely known as they thought it was. But assuming that, uh, this is a full scale crisis, what is your sort of 30,000 foot, um, advice to organizations?

Speaker B: Well, if you're at fault and you're in a crisis, you've got to do four things. You sincerely apologize, you've got to own it. Own it. Two, you've got to fix what needs to be rectified. Fix it. It could take time, but you get after it and you fix it. Three is you humbly move forward. And four is you report on progress along the way.

Speaker A: So it's okay to continue to talk about it if you're reporting on progress along the way? Because I think the natural inclination in a crisis is let's don't talk about it so people will forget it. And you think that's a mistake?

Speaker B: I think it can be a mistake, yes. It depends. That's where you have to use your good judgment. But it can really help you if you are needing to report back to your constituents on the, uh, progress that's made on what you've been working on.

Speaker A: The other thing you talk about in this context is what you call the three S's.

Speaker B: Yes, the three S's. When you're in a crisis and you know you're in one, Andy. One is speed of response. You've got to move quickly in the response because of our unbelievably fast news cycle. Now, number two is the substance of your message. It needs to have some weight bearing again, um, and not be seen as you're hiding from something. And then three, you've got to have a strong spokesperson. He or she, um, can really, really be key as you navigate these tough waters.

Speaker A: Well, Glenn, that is a lot to digest. I feel sorry for our podcast listeners who are listening to this in the car and were not able to take notes. Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. And to all of our listeners, we want to thank you for joining us as well and invite you to join us next month where we will conclude this conversation with Glenn Jackson on the seven pillars of a preeminent organization. And when you get an opportunity opportunity, Visit our website, andystanley.com on the website, you'll find a leadership podcast application guide that goes with today's conversation. So for those of you that weren't able to take notes, we have done some of that for you. As always, thanks so much for joining us. We will see you next month right back here on our leadership podcast.