Why Smart Leaders Keep Getting the Same Results, with Randy Lyman

Speaker A: M welcome to the HCI family of podcasts where your source for personal, professional and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner oriented content around all things leadership, hr, talent management, organizational development and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts. Randy Lyman, welcome to the conversation today.

Speaker B: Great to be here with you John.

Speaker A: It is a pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from Arizona, I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today we're going to be talking about why smart leaders keep getting the same results. Uh, and kind of implied in that is why they keep banging their heads against the wall getting not great results. You know, they keep on doing the same things over and over again and not getting the results that they want to get. Uh, and it's, it's kind of baffling to me sometimes because you really do see very intelligent, well intending, well intended people, um, that just don't seem to really be able to break through. They don't seem to be able to get the things out of their teams that they want to be able to get. They don't seem to seem to be able to get the performance, they don't seem to be able to get the uh, business results that they want to get. And yet, uh, they keep reading the self help books, they keep reading the leadership books, they keep doing a lot of the things that we might suggest that they try to do to improve and yet they just keep on getting the same results. And so we're going to unpack this, try to explore what leaders really can and should do to start to disrupt that, to try to get different results, uh, so that you know, they can see improvement in themselves, they can see improvement in their teams and for their organizations. As we get started, I wanted to share Randy's bio with everybody. Randy Lyman is a physicist, entrepreneur and leading expert in emotional intelligence and service based leadership. He has built and scaled multiple successful companies including an Inc 500 firm and brings decades of proven experience in business growth, innovation and high performance team leadership. Randy, it's a pleasure, pleasure to have you. Is there anything you would like to share by way of your own background or personal context with the audience before we dive on into the conversation?

Speaker B: Well, I was one of those people who's banging his head against the wall and wondering why people weren't following me. And uh, I, I think we've all been there. Yeah, that we've all been there and that was me definitely 40 years ago. And it, what it really took to make a change for me in my effectiveness is to stop trying to change the outside world, to try and find a way that I could change who I was, how I felt, how I thought, and change my approach to the world. And once I did that, then I started finding success.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe we can. That can be a good starting point for us, uh, in this conversation, uh, because there is this, you know, the concept of internal versus external locus of control and you know, starting from within versus constantly having all these external pressures and all these external things that may or may not be within our sphere of influence. Um, and it's easy to feel like those things are outside of your control, that, that uh, you're, you're overwhelmed. You're not really sure what to do. Right. When there's all these out external things. Right. Um, and you, you may or may not actually be able to influence those external things. Um, you know, as you develop skills and competencies over time, you probably can, uh, extend your influence and your, your, your sphere of influence outside of yourself. But, uh, it's always really important to start with yourself and to start, uh, with, uh, who you are and your own why and you know, so to really master that. Because if you can't really start there, I don't know how you're going to be able to start to, you know, extend that sphere of influence, uh, to, to your immediate team or to your organization, to your community. Uh, those sor. Uh, so yeah, let's start there. Like what, what do you mean? Like you mentioned 40 years ago, you know, you were that leader banging your head against the wall. Uh, maybe describe for us like, what you were experiencing back then.

Speaker B: Uh, the biggest challenge I had was my style of communicating was not really accepted by most people. I'm educated as a, as a scientist and an engineer, so I would speak in facts and concrete steps for plans. And people aren't interested in that. They're interested in the experience. They're interested in the story. They're interested in being, uh, acknowledged for who they are and being treated as an individual. And for me, and when I grew up in the 1960s and 70s, um, it was a completely different world. And also growing up as men, we learned in junior high and high school we have to be tough and we have to be masculine and we have to push our way through life. And nobody really tells us, hey, as now that you're in your 20s and definitely in your 30s, we don't have to push for everything anymore. Now we can inspire others. So I was feeling, uh, frustrated. I had a lot of anger issues I had to work through. Below the anger issues were issues that I think a lot of leaders feel, which is, at some level, betrayal, abandonment, loneliness. Because we see clearly what we want. And when other people can't understand what we're trying to communicate, then we do feel alone. So that's what I was feeling. That's how I approach the world was from, from a more aggressive, hey, this is what we're going to do. Get on board or else. And that's the way things were done 40 years ago. Now, uh, the methods that I use today of truly connecting and inspiring people would have worked great 40 years ago, but they weren't necessary. Now we move jump forward to 2026 and now almost 2027. If we as leaders are not able to help people feel, uh, acknowledged and appreciated, we're never going to be able to inspire them. And fear doesn't motivate anybody anymore. So we're in a place where the world really has no choice. Good leaders have no choice except to find ways to change their approach to the outside world. And that starts with the approach to ourself and having more, uh, emotional intelligence and more emotional clarity. For me, it was about finding my own clarity as to what was bothering me and how to work through those issues.

Speaker A: Yeah, that, that emotional clarity internally, uh, starting there. Uh, that's, that's a really, really, really good point. And, and I also like how you framed kind of your own journey within the, the scope of just, you know, evolving times, evolving culture. Like, certainly things do change over time. Um, and, you know, what may have seemed typical, normal, you know, in a previous generation may not be, you know, what we would expect today or, like, how we might experience things, um, today in the same way. Uh, and that is just to be expected. I mean, you know, as I look at my children, you know, they experience the world in a bit of a different way than I do. Um, and they tease me, uh, continually about it, you know. Right. Because now I'm the old guy, and they love to tease me about it. Um, and that's just the reality. Like, we all have so much to learn. We all have so much, you know, in terms of continual growth. And that's what makes life fun. Anyways. I don't want to feel like I have it all figured out or that I, you know, I already, you know, learned everything there is to learn. Um, you know, I, I may have figured out, you know, how to lead in one situation, that seems to work pretty well. But guess what? I'm. Am I ever going to find myself in that exact same situation again? Maybe probably not. There's probably still going to be some nuance and some differences I'm certain to probably find myself in, even if I'm in a similar situation with different people. Um, and so humanity is such that we're all complicated human animals and we all bring differences to every situation. And so the reality is we just have to come to every situation with humility, uh, and a willingness to listen and to learn and to, and to try to work through things together. And if we come with that humility and that kind of, that emotional intelligence like you said, and a willingness to, to look inward before we start to look outward, uh, then I think we're at least in a better position, uh, to deal with the external environment as we experience it. Uh, because we're going to deal with all sorts of stuff coming at us externally, some of which will be within some of our control or sphere of influence, but a lot of it which won't be, uh, or will be coming at us so fast that we're not going to have real time to deal with it, at least initially. Uh, and so yeah, just learning to emotionally regulate and understand what we're dealing with as we're dealing with it internally is going to be a really big first step I think, for all of us. Uh, some people are just much better at it naturally. Uh, some of us have to work a lot harder at it to continually just stay in check and to be able to deal with things in a healthy way.

Speaker B: I would agree with that. And it starts with us. And then the next thing I really worked on after I started to find clarity was how do I communicate differently with people, people and how do I acknowledge the people around me? And so I learned through uh, an intervention that somebody took me through in 1990, 1996 or 97. No, actually it was 99. Here we go, 1999. I'm a good 10 years, uh, along the way on my spiritual journey. I'd started a new business three years earlier and that business still was not profitable. I was not making money, I was out of funds and I didn't necessarily know how I was going to save that endeavor. And I slipped back in my old ways of being demanding and being short tempered and not being that easy to work with. And three of the people I worked with, my team leaders brought me, um, or came into my meeting. Excuse me. So three of my team Leaders came into my office and said, randy, we need to talk to you. Can we shut the door? I said, okay. And they proceeded to tell me that I was not as calm and centered as I needed to be. And I was not being the leader. I was not being the leader they knew I could be, and I needed to take a look at myself. And I argued with them a little bit, and I said, okay, I'll consider it. I went home and I talked to my wife that night, and she says, yeah, I've been trying to tell you this, and you don't listen to me. So then I took some time to first work on myself and go back to my old techniques I knew for working through emotional trauma. And we don't have to have huge trauma in order for it to affect us. Small things affect us when we're. When we're young and. And we internalize those. And those emotions are bigger than time and space until we address them. So I became, um, I started working on myself and became more clear again. But then I said, wait a minute. If I'm going to continue this, I need to quantify what I'm doing in the way of my actions and behaviors so I can watch myself and change my behaviors and make it habit and make it natural rather than something that's forced. And then also, I wanted to be able to teach this to the. The managers and the leaders within my organizations. And so I was able to quantify this. And then I was able to build processes and programs and such that acknowledge, uh, or address three different things people need more than money. The first thing they need is to be acknowledged for who they are. Every one of us is a unique individual. And when somebody pays attention and recognizes something unique within us, that. That really satisfies a part of our soul. The second thing people need is they need to feel like they're contributing to the cause. And many people in life today just feel like their life is. Is meaningless. So I found that when I could help people feel like they're contributing at work, some of these people were more excited to come to work than they were to go home at the end of the day. And eventually their lives change in positive ways and their home life improved as well. But again, people need to feel like they're contributing. And then the third thing that people need is they need to feel a sense of belonging to the group they're in.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And nobody likes to be outcast. So I was able to. To put all this together from things I had learned from people I had interacted with. And so then I started showing up differently, and I started looking for ways to praise people rather than find criticism. Now, sometimes criticism is still necessary, but I learned to start with praise, and I learned to start with an acknowledgement of who I was working with. And we can always get to the criticism later if it's not an emergency. Let's focus on the positive first. Well, that wasn't natural for me, and that took time to embody and for me to become that. But as I started to embody those, uh, characteristics and behaviors, then my business really took off, and we did become profitable, and we did start to really, uh, have a positive impact on our industry. And I was able to grow leaders within my organization. And that's ultimately what made the difference, was me understanding I had to change myself and then figuring out how to, as I say, quantify these behaviors. And that's what I coach leaders, uh, on today, is how they can change, how they show up. Not just the concept of, uh, oh, we need to be more vulnerable or we need to be of service, but actual behaviors that we can change. And the interesting thing is, even though we still have to deal with discipline, and sometimes we have to make changes and deliver messages that are hard to deliver, when we become comfortable with ourselves, then we become more comfortable in delivering those difficult messages. And then the people we're delivering the messages to and the people we're guiding, they see us differently and they hear us differently.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And they respond to us positively rather than with friction.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, exactly. Because we're approaching them differently. Uh, they understand that we're there for a developmental conversation. Right. As opposed to a punitive conversation. It's a totally different kind of a scenario. Um, and it may. I mean, we could almost say the exact same words. Right. Um, but the vibe in the room is different. And it's just subtle little things that build up over time. When you're in the office together, or even if you're remote and you're just in those teams interactions, um, you know, sending messages back and forth, emails back and forth. Like, there's just subtle things that build up over time, and people notice. People can tell when you're focused on them in a positive, developmental way, uh, wanting them to succeed versus you're more controlling, more punitive in nature, uh, and, you know, more. More negative in how you approach them. Right?

Speaker B: Well, yeah. And even if I show up with a smile, but I've got internal tension because I'm worried about hitting my budget numbers or my revenue numbers or I have A, uh, challenging employee situation I need to deal with, and I feel tension around that. So when I try and push that down, it does two things. First of all, it takes energy out from, uh, my mind and from my body to push that emotion aside. And, and that distracts me from being the best I can be. And then secondly, people feel us, and we walk into a room, if we have any tension, people feel us. And people could say, oh, no, I'm a better actor than that. Well, why be an actor? Why not write it down, deal with it after work, find clarity, and then show up the next day or maybe a little bit, work on it a little bit every day until a week or two later, we show up with more clarity, more calm, and more confidence. Now we can connect with people and they're not guarded around us. Because when I have tension, the people around me sense that even if I'm, uh, subtle tension, and then they're guarded and then they're protecting themselves, and then they're not showing up 100%. So it all came back to every time, and it does every time. Today, if I'm not getting the results I want from the world, what within myself can I change in my mindset, in my actions, and most importantly, what old emotional wounding trauma, whatever you want to call it, do I have that I'm still dealing with? So if I didn't get recognition from my dad that my brother got when I was 12 years old, and I'm trying to find my way in the world, that's not huge trauma. Some people have extreme trauma. They're physically and emotionally abused, okay? But if I'm 12 years old and I'm trying to figure out where I fit in the world and somebody else is getting more attention than me, that's emotional trauma. Now in the workplace today, 40 years later, actually, for me, 52 years later, at the age of 64, as an intelligent, successful man, I still have trauma come up where, oh, wait a minute. This irritation that I have in my life is some old emotional energy that I didn't feel completely years ago. There's no shame in that. We're human. That's part of the human experience. And we can say, okay, I'm going to look at myself and I'm going to find a way to do some breath work, go for a walk, do some journaling, right? Uh, whatever I might do, go work out and let that energy that I'm feeling be expressed and removed from my body and my emotional beingness. Now I show up more clear. Now the I uh, talk about this in my book the Third Element. I believe the same as quantum physicists believe today, that all matter is just energy. It's called into solid form for us moment by moment. And in order for us to have the experience we're meant to have, this was proven in the, uh, double sled experience, uh, experiment, excuse me, 90, um, nine years ago in 1927. And in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle leads to the same thing, which is everything is really an illusion except for love and the connections we have with people. And it's all created as a, um, as a simulation for our growth and experience and learning and fun. And when I started to take that approach and I realized I could create my reality by changing my thoughts, changing my actions, and most importantly, by becoming aware of my emotions and working through my emotional challenges, even the small ones. Now I found control over my life, and that's the reason I wrote the book, is to help people understand that they can have control over their life. And I've been so blessed by interacting and working with so many great people and learning what I've learned and being able to change the way I approach life. I want other people to be able to have the same success. And it's possible for anybody who's willing to look at themselves.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that, um, one, I love how you articulate the trauma piece that we all have it. Now. Some people don't like to label it trauma. You can attach any word you want to. It's, uh. And obviously we all have different extremes, you know, to, you know, some people experience horrific abuse, um, that like, I, I just can't even fathom. Right. But, but we all have different layers and levels of, of trauma. I would use whatever word you want. We all experience it, right. We all have stuff, um, and all of that has to be worked through. Uh, it just does.

Speaker B: And even bigger than time, that energy is bigger than time and space. And it won't go away until we feel it. And time, it doesn't feel all the motion.

Speaker A: And it doesn't matter how privileged you are. Like, I'm a straight cisgender white guy, right? I'm, I'm able bodied. I am neurotypical. Like, I have all the layers of privilege. Um, I'm educated. Like, I have all these layers of privilege, right? So I don't walk around all day thinking, oh, I have all this trauma. But I also have to recognize that. Yeah. Are there things, like, emotional things that come bubble up for me? 100%, absolutely. I, I was not Abused as a child. I was. Not this or that or the other. Right. But absolutely, there are, are emotional things that I need to be aware of and, and they bubble up and they, they manifest in various, uh, in various situations. And we all have those things. That's the point is, is if, and if we don't, if we're not willing to acknowledge them, then we can't work through them and we can't. And then we're not ready to, um, deal with them if they happen to bubble up when we're in a tense, you know, workplace situation with a team member or, you know, whatever. Right. And then, and then we're not our best selves when those situations arise. And so like, to your point about, you know, trying to be a good leader, you know, when you have those three people come to you in your office, by the way, kudos to them, right? Like, that's, that takes courage for people.

Speaker B: And they did it.

Speaker A: And they, and they did it.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Not, not everyone would do that. Um, and, and so kudos to them for, for doing that. I, I would also say probably you were doing something right because they, they felt safe enough to come do that to you. Um, you know, I've worked with plenty of really toxic bosses where no one would ever do something like that. Um, and so, you know, but you want to, you want to create a, ah, safe enough space where, where people can question you, where people can come to you and share feedback with you, where you're receptive and open to that. Right? And where you can do that with other people. And people do know the difference. People can feel it. Um, and it doesn't matter how good of an actor you are, people can feel it. People can sense the tension. They can, they can sense the BS if you're BSing it. They, they know the difference.

Speaker B: And so, and I'd like to add that, yeah, we can expend that energy to pretend, but why waste that time? Why waste that energy? Why not find a way to, to find clarity instead?

Speaker A: Yeah, and, and there's a layer of humility, I think, built into all of this. You can't have emotional clarity if, if you're not, um, intellectually humble enough, uh, if you're not emotionally humble enough, uh, to, to first and foremost, just recognize that, yes, you don't have it all figured out. Uh, yes, you're continually learning, um, yes, you, you, you need to continually seek out, uh, feedback from those around you, et cetera, et cetera. Right. Uh, like some, some of the most brilliant people I've ever known in my life. Like IQ wise, just super smart, brilliant people are also some of the dumbest people I've ever known from like an emotional intelligence standpoint. And, and they're, they're arrogant, they're, they lack any sort of intellectual humility. Um, and even though they're IQ smart, they actually have major blind spots. Like, even from an intellectual standpoint, like they, because of their, their um, IQ smarts, they have major blind spots because they think they know everything and they, they don't challenge their thinking, they don't continually learn and, and then, you know, so even, even from a book smart standpoint, they miss stuff. And then from a uh, from a uh, like emotional intelligence standpoint, they absolutely miss the mark and miss all sorts of things and they're just not willing to be self reflective and they're not willing to understand how, how they interact with folks matters. Right.

Speaker B: And so we're always going to have people like that and I'm not going to make an excuse for them, but I'm going to say that when people are like that and we encounter them and we think, God, I wish they would change, that's the time to look at ourselves and say, why am I being bothered by this? What's this bringing up for me? Because we're never going to change that person until they're ready to change.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. People all around us are going to be what they're going to be. Right? Um, I, you know, if I live my whole life thinking I'm going to change everyone to be just the way I want them to be, I'm going to be a whole lot of disappointed throughout my life.

Speaker B: But here's another thing. Yeah, I agree with that. Here's another thing I learned though is when I was able to address my emotions and I talk about this in my book, uh, the third element, this is my biggest epiphany was I worked through a huge emotional release about something somebody in my family had said 12 years earlier. And I wanted, I was an overachiever to get my family's approval. I was all about being competent. Well, when I had incompetence issues in my business and in people around me in life and I couldn't work through that, then I had the opportunity to have that huge emotional release around competence. And when I went back to work four days later, the people who I was working with, who struggled with competence for really months I've been working on this challenge instantly in a day became competent or they left my life. Now I believe that's the reality of the law of attraction at a quantum level saying, oh, you no longer need this lesson. We're not going to force this lesson on you anymore. And so the people around us will change magically. And as a scientist, I'll tell you, I'll use the word magically when we change who we are. And that's really what life is all about, is how is everything being reflected back to us so that we can learn to be better in whatever way, more intelligent, work harder, take better care of our bodies, or be more emotionally, uh, aware. And we become emotionally aware and we become clear and we no longer need those lessons. And I believe that nothing is random. And, and uh, uh, business leaders are going to say, what are you talking about here, Randy? This seems really arbitrary, but it's not. When we really look at how reality is created for us. And again, go back and study or find a YouTube video on the Double Slit Experiment 1927. When we simply observe energy, it changes through our observation because energy is here to serve us on our spiritual path. Excuse me, we're spiritual beings on a human path. We're trying to figure out this planet. Well, we're also trying to figure out how to interact with people. We're trying to figure out our emotions. Yeah, we're going to learn some skills and we're going to learn some calculus and finance and all those other things. But we're really here to learn about ourselves and how to interact with others in a way that serves everyone.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, this has just been a fantastic, fascinating conversation, Randy. Uh, I think we could go on and on. I also know at the time, and I probably need to let you go and get on with your busy day. But before we wrap things up for today, I wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, where they can find your book, and, and then give us the final word for today.

Speaker B: Okay, so the best way to find me is on my website, randyliman.com and through there you can find my, uh, social media links either on LinkedIn or Instagram or wherever you might like to, uh, check me out and follow me. And um, my book, the Third Element, took me four years to write. This is based on my experiences. It is really breaks down the science of the law of attraction, that people can understand and make sense to, uh, people, whether they're scientific or not. And I bring clarity to how our mind is separate from our body is, and both of those are separate from our emotions. And how I went through my own personal journey to find more clarity. And my message for everybody today is if you're, if we're looking for a way to learn more about emotions and find more clarity, it's going to be messy, but it's going to be worth it. Be willing to take risks and know that you don't have to do it perfectly.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. Randy, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out to get connected. Find out more about what Randy can do for you. Check out the book. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. They can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day. And I hope you all have a great week. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe, and please join us again soon.