Strength Through Vulnerability: The Inner Work Leaders Skip

I think AI is a perfect distraction from what's really important. We went through the industrial revolution over 100 years ago. We've gone through. We're still going through the information revolution. It fits into three categories. Information, the physical world, and emotions. And now the human experience is going through the emotional evolution, emotional revolution, the evolution of man to the final change. That's really the most important is experiencing our emotions, completely acknowledging that we're on a human path and treating people with more care, more compassion, and more connection. And these things have always been helpful. If you look back at Southwest Airlines and Herb Keller, he built an amazing organization through that approach. Hi there, and welcome to the Step up podcast. I'm your host, Kent Knievel. Every week I talk to experts who focus on helping leaders step up their leadership game and leaders telling their stories of growing up through the ranks. If you're new to the show, do me a favor and subscribe so you never miss an episode. One last thing. As a leadership development consultant and executive coach, focus area of mine is supporting newly promoted leaders. One in three promotions fail because we never teach newly minted VPs how to stop being a director or a newly promoted director how to stop being a manager. If that's you, or if you support a leader who has been recently promoted, I encourage you to visit my website at Kent Coach Toolkit and download a free copy of the Promoted Leader Toolkit filled with practical advice and tools to help new leaders stick the landing and truly step up to their new leadership level. All right, I've dillied and dallied long enough. On with the show. Welcome, everybody. Today we're going to be talking about the strength and vulnerability for leaders. And with me for this conversation today is Randy Lyman, author and leadership coach. Randy, thanks for coming here today. I appreciate it. Great to be here, Kent. Well, before we get into the topic, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to the audience. They can hear a little bit, learn a little bit about you before we get going. Well, I am definitely a contradiction. My education is in physics. I have a bachelor's in physics with natural honors. I'm an engineer with multiple patents, and I've been a business owner since 1982. All left brain stuff, all very useful. But 26 years ago, excuse me, 36 years ago, in 1989, I met a woman by the name of Maria. I spent three years with her and in a romantic partnership, and she introduced me to the unseen, emotional, spiritual side of the human experience. And it changed my life. And as I learned and healed and grew. It increased my effectiveness in a way I never could have imagined. I feel like I've been in a number of conversations lately about vulnerability, eq, self regulation. A bunch of these things keep bubbling up as we are looking at how AI. We'll just pick on AI for a minute, how AI is kind of coming forward and there's this sort of push and pull, right? And you're seeing certainly seeing some layoffs, you're seeing some rehiring, but there's all this conversation happening around, what is work going to be? Who's going to be doing it? What are the skills that are going to become more valuable? And I think that's where I've been getting into a number of conversations around how important the human skills are going to become, right? And so I'd say that's smack dab. Where I think vulnerability and the topic today kind of fits nicely is in terms of like, where and how these uniquely human skills bring out the best of those around us. So what, what had you kind of get into that topic and start speaking about writing about that topic? Goodness sakes. Well, because I've said such wonderful, such a great life, such great results. By changing my approach, I want other people to understand they also have access to the same tools that have helped me be successful again. We have to be smart and work hard. But that's not everything. The emotional side has made the biggest difference. And it's not that I make decisions based on emotions or businesses, only about emotions, but we always have to consider the emotional side of the human experience. It's there and it's going to come through in everything that we do well. But talking about AI for a minute, I think AI is a perfect distraction from what's really important. We went through the Industrial revolution over a hundred years ago. We've gone through and we're still going through. The information revolution fits into three categories. Information, the physical world and emotions. And now the human experience is going through the emotional evolution. The emotional revolution, the evolution of man to the final change that's really the most important is experiencing our emotions, completely acknowledging that we're all spiritual beings on a human path and treating people differently, with more care, more compassion, and more connection. And these things have always been helpful. If you look back at Southwest Airlines and Herb Keller, he built an amazing organization through that approach. He was one of the first to do it. But in today's world, there's really no other way to motivate a group other than finding ways to serve the group to Be vulnerable as a leader and to help those that we serve, that we lead, understand that we're here for them. And when we take that approach, it's effective. But any other approach today is not effective. Back in the 1960s and 70s, we could just tell people, do your job or you're going to get fired. And that was effective. It wasn't always the best way to do it, but it was effective. Today, that's not effective at all, and it shouldn't be. This is time for all of us to step up to a different way of leading. We, as leaders have the privilege and responsibility of helping the people we lead become the best they can be. And when we take that approach, we find better results for our team, for our company, for our profits, for everything. I love the Herb quote because I think mentioning Herb and Southwest, I had a quote of his on my LinkedIn profile for the longest time. It's no longer there, but it was about, you know, if you take care. In a nutshell, if you take care of your people, they're going to take care of your customers, Right? And I remember. Go ahead. Well, the people drive the numbers. The numbers don't drive people. And so when we can motivate people to be the best they can be, when we can inspire people, not just motivate, but we can inspire people to be the best they can be in themselves, and the way they interact with everybody that they work with, then they drive the numbers, and that's what drives the success of the business. It took me a long time to figure that out, because I was driven through fear. I was driven through personal emotional wounding and all that. And that helped me for the first 30 years of my life. But then it held me back, and I had to learn a different way, and I had to take risks and take a different approach. And one of the things I teach today is I share what worked for me so that people don't have to risk it all. In the position of a director or vp, if I'm going to try something new, I have the risk of not being promoted or even losing my job because I had multiple businesses and multiple departments within my businesses at the time I started experimenting, I was able to take those risks. And now I can share the results of my mistakes and share the results of the success with people and help them realize, oh, this isn't as dangerous as it looks. It's not as scary as it looks, and it's a lot more effective than I thought it would be. I'd love to get into A little bit of the cause. I think you've. You've sort of alluded to there's a. A before Randy and an after Randy. So I'm really, you know, curious what you'd be comfortable kind of getting into of like, well, here's how I used to do things and where, you know, how you've kind of learned and what you do differently and the kind of results you feel like you're getting differently, differentially now. Well, if I go back 40 years ago, I was motivated out of the fear of not being enough. I wanted to overachieve, to get my family's approval and to get the approval from the world, because I just thought that was the only way. And so I responded to criticism, okay, I'll take this as a positive thing, and I can get better. Most people don't respond well to criticism. If we're able to give praise and acknowledgement and then maybe a little constructive criticism, then we can help them. But I responded to the world in a particular way, and I thought everybody else responded the same way. But every one of us is different, and most people really respond much better to praise than criticism. So I had to change my approach. I had to go through a lot of personal growth to get through the anger that led to the deeper emotions of loneliness and abandonment and rejection and shame and all those other things. And now I'm not saying that we need to do this at work. We need to find our own private time to work through our emotional challenges, and we all should, and I did, and it helped me. But once I showed up more clearly and I understood what people knew what people needed, when I understood what people needed in order to feel good at work, it changed everything. And what I came up with was three things. One is, people need to be acknowledged for the unique individual they are. I need to see something in them and. And. And praise them, if I can, in a way that's genuine or at least acknowledge them for who they are. Second, they need to feel like they're contributing to the cause, and that's where praise comes in. And acknowledging where they've contributed, it all kind of mixes together. But again, it's still three unique attributes that we can embody when we interact with them. The acknowledgement, helping them feel like they contribute. And then the third one is, do people feel like they belong to the team? We are all very tribal. And if you go back to humans 3,000 years ago, with just a blink in the overall human evolution, if we didn't belong to our family or the tribe and we were thrown out. We didn't survive. And that's still instinctual within us. So we. We have that human need to belong. So when I started showing up understanding, first of all, it wasn't about me and finding ways to acknowledge and help people feel like they belonged and they were contributing. For some of those people, they enjoyed their work environment more than they enjoyed being at home. And in some ways, that's sad, but not necessarily. Because once they felt better about themselves at work and they performed better and there was more reasons to praise them, and everything really started to snowball in a positive direction, then a lot of those people found a way to show up differently at home, and they shared what they learned at work with their family and their friends and their neighbors. And that's how we as leaders can have an impact, is by helping people become the best they can be. I love that. I think there's two. Two things. Let me comment on the last thing first, which is I can't remember what the math is. And. But it's something like, you know, we spend 70% of our waking hours working Right at work or something to that effect each week. Yeah. A metric boatload. Yes. Right. And so, you know, being miserable for 70% of your life, how could you possibly expect to then bring the best. Your best self to the other? Right. 30% of your life. Right. And so I think, I think leaders acknowledging the impact that they have beyond the 40 hours, so to speak, and thinking about, you know, therefore how are they leading, how are they bringing out the best in others? And there's also some overlap here. When I, when I worked in D and I, we always said, you know, from an inclusion perspective, for people to feel included, they need to feel welcomed, valued, and heard. And I hear a lot of sort of overlap here because ultimately everyone does. Everybody does. And it's. It's all about, you know, you. The question is, what's the umbrella term and what hangs under it? Because you could kind of go either way. It's like, is, you know, is inclusion the umbrella term? Is engagement the umbrella term? Right. Because all the, you know, but ultimately it comes down to, you know, people are also individual as well. So I love how. Because you, before you got into your three things, you were like, I figured out what they needed. And I was going to say, like, well, tell me, Randy, what does everybody need? Because I doubt, well, okay, but everybody. Needs those in a different fashion. Everybody. And it's just like people who have kids you're going to have, whether you have Two kids or six kids. Every one of them is unique and has their own needs. So when we acknowledge them as an individual, they will. We engage in conversation, we ask questions. They will tell us who they are. They will tell us what matters to them. And if we care and pay attention, it's not a big investment. It's not a big investment at all. At first I thought, how do I have the time to do this? But if I stop and spend three minutes with somebody and I ask, how was your weekend? They tell me, oh, my kid's in soccer. Or I'm working on repairing a. Restoring a 55 Chevy with my dad or whatever that might be. And I walk around the corner and I write that down in the old days on a piece of paper now in my phone and notes, and I come back three days later or three weeks later, and I say, hey, how's your. How's your daughter doing in soccer? How's that with that car project going with your dad? They light up because somebody paid attention. And especially when we're in a position of leadership and we're not just saying, how's your day going? Are you keeping up? And we say, hey, I see you for who you are. They show up as a completely different individual. And that's not something I have statistics about, but I can tell you that is how I built my businesses, by finding ways to see the best in people. Even there was even people I didn't like who worked for me, but they did a great job. And I would find a way to talk to them and ask them questions, and they would tell me about themselves. And eventually, even though there were things I didn't like about those people, I realized not only were they a valuable part of the business, but they were real people doing the best they could do. And when I was able to see through my own lens of looking for problems, instead of seeing the beauty in who they were, and I could identify some beautiful things and who those people were, it was effective. Now, if you would have told me this 40 years, I go, I would have said, you're wasting your time. I'm not going to do this. I just need to tell them how to do their job and get to work. Well, that didn't work for me. And once I found a way to show up differently, they showed up differently. And we drove so much success. This is not about. It's never about what the business needs directly. Yes, we have a mission. Yes, we have goals and deadlines and all those things, but people only hear what we have to say about the goals and deadlines when we can see them for who they are. Yeah, well. And I think you started off today, too, saying, I'm kind of curious where you see this playing in. You kind of talked a bit about the need to either, you know, and I don't know why I'm looking over here to my left, and I should just be looking over your left shoulder. Right. Is the, you know, the emotional healing or the work that one needs to do kind of on with themselves as well. So tell me a little bit about your thoughts on or what you've been speaking about or writing about around, because I have a feeling there's a bit of this. You need to put the oxygen mask on yourself first. And so everything starts with us first. Absolutely everything starts with us first. How can I show up in a meeting with tension or worry and expect people not to feel that? And then they're tense and they're worried and they're not even paying attention to what I have to say. And how can I expect other people to be their best when I'm not looking at myself first? So I had to look at my emotional wounds. Again, I'm a scientist. I'm a physicist. I'm not talking about this because I want everybody to be emotional. I'm talking about this because I want everybody to have a better life. And the mechanics of the universe, the mechanics and the science of the human experience is we are also emotional beings. So I had to look at my. Again, my anger and my frustration. So today, if I'm going to go into a board meeting or a team meeting and something is bothering me, I write it down because I don't want to carry that with me and have it bubble up because I'm trying to hold it down. I want to acknowledge it and bring it out in the sunlight. Then later, in my own time, I'm going to go back and say, why is this an issue for me? What am I thinking and what am I feeling? And again, I'm still going to make plans for changing operations. There's still times when I have to take disciplinary action or people have to let go, and all those things still happen. But I can do it with caring and compassion. And if I look at myself, I find ways to improve. I find things that are bothering me from 20 and 30 and 50 years ago. And emotions are bigger than time and space, and we can't heal them with our mind. We have to take the time to have a semantic experience, feel those emotions through our body. And when we do the world around us changes? And I talk about that in my book, the Third Element. And I share many of my experiences and I share my understanding down to a quantum physics level from a scientist's perspective, how emotions interact with the universe to create our world. So this is not about somebody with theory. This is me. I made a lot of mistakes. I hit my head against the wall. I had to admit where I was wrong, and I had to change in order to accomplish what I did. And I didn't accomplish it. I accomplished my own personal change, and the team made everything happen. Well, so you mentioned the book the Third Element. I'd love to hear a little bit more about it, because I think what I'm curious about, you know, a lot of people want to sort of bypass the self work. Right. And you even kind of mentioned, you know, people can feel it. People know when you're tense about something. Right. And, you know, if you asked a room full of leaders, how many of you want to be the leader that your employees run by each other's desks to check in on and do what we call a temperature check. Right. About the boss, like, hey, how's Randy doing today? Because I've got some stuff I need to talk to him about, and if he's in one of those moods, I don't want to go, well, that was. Me a long time ago. That used to be me. Yeah. And that's not helpful. And. And for those of us who found success in our early years, our ego just thinks, okay, I've. I've done this my way. It works. I'm going to continue doing it my way. And what helps us in our earlier years holds us back as we mature and as we take on more responsibility. But emotions are messy. They were messy for me. A lot of pain comes through. But the beauty is when we feel the pain and we let it go, then love and healing and beautiful emotions come in place of where the pain was. And we can show up also for our family more open and more loving and able to connect at a deeper level. And that's why most people are working so hard, and they turn off their emotions to work hard so they can create a better situation for themselves and their family. Well, we can't just turn off some of our emotions. We turn off all of them or none of them. And it's a scary thing to do. In the book, I talk about how I made the transition. I talk about the three elements that everything, three categories, everything in the universe fits into our mind and our thinking mind and thoughts and information, our physical body and the physical world and our emotions. And I talk about how to make sense of that and how to navigate that. In chapter seven, I share 14 different exercises that people can do or activities they can do to work through their emotions. And so I've tried to make this to where people can look at it and say, oh, Randy's a logical guy. This worked for him. He shared his experiences and he's given me some insight into what might work. And what I want to provide is hope so that people say, okay, I'm willing to look at this and I'm willing to try it. And the other thing I share is God has two rules for us. And in my opinion, that's it. Now, I believe a lot of the things Jesus said are true, and I believe a lot of things in the Old Truth Testament are helpful. But I distill it down to what I think is most important. And the first is love always wins. Or when we have a challenge and we look at the solution from a place of love rather than a place of fear, that's the only way to find a lasting solution. So in the end, love wins, fear never wins. The second one is, I believe God. The universe, spirit, source, whatever we want to call it, has no expectations for us and is not judgmental. There's no judgment and there's no expectations. But there are consequences because our reality is created by the law of attraction in response at a sub nuclear level, in response to our thoughts, in response to our actions and response to our emotions. So the consequences can be bad or the consequences can be good. And it's all up to us. And we have free will. So. So the universe says, you go and play and do whatever you want, you have free will. But I'm going to reflect back who you are, back to you in your physical experiences, in your health and in your relationships. And if you want to change your physical experiences, you want to change your health, you want to change your relationships, look at yourself first. And there's very few good examples of that out there in the world. And I had to make a lot of mistakes to learn that. I'm still learning every day. But to me that's kind of the universe in a nutshell. And the book is 200 pages of a. An explanation that can help people wrap their minds around this and see it from a logical point of view. Because I didn't want to look at emotions, emotions, not only are they messy, but the people I knew who were emotional, their life was a mess. So why should I want to deal with my emotions? Yeah, tell me if you've. So tell me if you've gotten this. I'm going to let my bias show for just a minute here because you, you know, I saw, I was introduced to you and you were suggested as a podcast guest. And I go and I look at your media kit, right? And I see, ah, here's this well dressed guy, cowboy hat. Let me. What, what, what are the topics? Oh, emotional resilience and you know, self healing. And so I guess, you know, to let my bias show is like the, the, the package seemed incongruent with the content, so to speak. Do you get that at all? And, and how are, you know, are you, or am I just being rude today? But you know, do you know, it felt, it felt unexpected. And I was like, well, I have to talk to this guy. On this journey that I've been, it's been divinely guided. I've been on this journey to start out completely, left brain with no emotions and shutting my emotions off and then having to step my way through from acknowledging that I have emotions, to healing those emotions, to approaching work differently. And because I'm a logical guy, I understand every step of the transition. And now I can share those steps and my experience with other people who are logical and reasonable but have turned off their emotions in a way they can hear me. Because I'm not just an emotional guy. I'm still emotional last, even though I do a lot of thinking and our thinking mind guides our reality. I take action first and I think second and I feel last. But I've learned that if I get to the underlying emotions, I can fix the problem a whole lot sooner, a whole lot faster and a whole lot better. And I am an absolute contradiction. But this is reality for me. After living my life this way for 34 plus years, I've been on a spiritual journey for 36 years. And luckily about two years in, I had a huge epiphany about emotions and the law of attraction in our reality. But after having just many thousands of experiences of, okay, what's the underlying emotion? Because my thoughts aren't fixing it, my planning's not fixing it, and my accident's not fixing the problem, what do I need to feel? And then seeing that the emotional healing I would go through, even if it's small, even it's just a breathing exercise or going for a walk or sitting down and writing down the things I'm grateful for and my world changes. And as a scientist, cause and effect, okay, I Can't write the equations for it. I can't tell you exactly how the energy works in the physical feeling of that emotion that turns into heat, which is part of the first law of thermodynamics. I can't write an equation for it. But my experiences, my own experiences and the experiences of hundreds of people I've worked with make it clear to me this is the true path for the ultimate success and the ultimate fulfillment. Well, and I feel like it would be almost like, almost too easy to look at this from a gendered perspective, right. To look at it and say, right. I think it would be too easy to say, gosh, you know, I feel like you're talking about certain skills that might be more innate for women versus men. And yet I think, especially as you're talking about not, you know, because I think we've been talking about two things. One is how are we leading people? And then the other is like kind of how are we leading ourselves? Perhaps right is maybe a way to sum it up. And I feel like it would almost be too easy to say. I feel like, you know, most women are nailing the leading others part right. And the skills that they're bringing to that. But I don't know. I don't know that I. I don't know that I would believe that, that en masse they're necessary that men or women are doing better at leading themselves though. Right. I feel like that's probably some pretty equal work that people need to do. But what are you. Your questions are so good. You have me so excited to answer. So let's talk about the women leaders that I work with and I talked and I help through their challenges. A lot of women leaders believe that if they show up more masculine, they'll be better leaders. So me as a man, I had to learn to embrace my feminine traits, my feminine qualities, and the tools I have access to of caring and compassion and intuition and connection in order to be a better leader. I'm still a man, I'm still effective as a man, and I'm still respective respected as a man. And when I talk to women who were trying to lead from a masculine approach and a masculine perspective, I helped them understand the masculine aspects of leadership are planning and discipline and follow through and all those things which women already understand. But if they forget about trying to impress their father or their brother or uncle or some man in their life that has a small child, they felt they had to be different and they couldn't just be a woman, then when they get into the workplace, they're still trying to impress somebody in their life who is. Is long gone and doesn't matter. And when they can say, wait a minute. I'm here to connect with the people I lead, and I know how to do that as a woman. I'm here to have compassion, and I know how to do that as a woman. They can still have discipline. They can still set boundaries. They can take all those masculine traits and actions that they are comfortable taking because they're already learning to be in a position of leadership. And then they can lean on their feminine traits and show up as a leader who cares? And when the team members or even the leadership team or the board of directors, they lead, when those people know that that woman leader is there for them to help them succeed, and they feel that, and they know it's genuine, then they're on their side. So it doesn't matter if we're a man or woman. We still need to address the feminine aspects of the human experience and all those tools in our toolkit in order to be effective as leaders. And for me, as a man, when I first started down that path, that was S.C. mm. I thought I wasn't gonna be respected. I thought that if I wasn't strong and I wasn't in charge and I didn't have all the answers, people would not respect me. And it turns out the opposite is true. When I can show up saying, I don't know the answers, can you help me and show that I really care about people? Then they respected me more, and they saw me as stronger. Well, it kind of comes back to where we sort of started the conversation, which is vulnerability. Right. Which I might also put kind of next to the word authenticity as well. Right. And I think, to your point, the people that I've seen most successful in leadership have leaned on some level of authenticity and vulnerability. Right. This willingness to cast aside kind of the need to show themselves as infallible in some way. Right. That these stories of, you know, here, you know, having literal leaders on, literally on stage talking to, you know, the employee base about, you know, here's the mistakes I made, here's where, you know, things didn't go so well, or here's the, you know, unexpected turn I took in my career that opened things up in this way that. That their willingness to sort of lean into more honesty and less facade. Can I share a story? Yeah, please. So this is many years ago, but we had a challenge when we were developing new products, doing more manufacturing and assembling, and we Just weren't able to get engineering and purchasing and sales to all work together. And so Joe came to me and he's still a friend. He said, well, why don't we just all sit down in one room and figure it out. He said, well, that's pretty simple, Joe, but it's a great idea, let's do it. And so what I had to do was say, okay, we brought you all together here because I don't know the answers. I brought you all together here because I need help and we need to do this together because I don't know how to do it by myself. And I'm not sure if each department knows how to do it by ourselves, but let's learn how to do it together. I'm going to help you and you're going to help me run a meeting where we understand how to disagree with each other, we understand how to share our opinions without oversharing, we understand how to stick to the rules of engagement for a meeting, and we learn how to make decisions together through a four step process. Well, when I showed up and said, I need your help, everybody got on board. Nobody said, oh, this is a waste of time. Everybody loves to share their opinion. Now as a moderator, I had to learn to help. I had to learn how to teach people how to interact in an environment like this. And I had to tell them, hey, I'm not sure how to do this, I might make some mistakes. You guys need to help me. It went, it was so beautiful, it was so powerful. It really helped us take such a huge leap forward in the products we developed and how we took everything to market and the success we had. And it was all based on me saying, I don't know what to do. So the, some of the areas that I focus on in, you know, my own practice is on leadership transitions. And so, you know, I ask everybody to come prepared with a couple of pieces of advice. The first that I'd like to focus on with you is those leaders who are sort of looking for that next promotion in their career. So what, you know, as you're looking at leaders who want to continue to grow and rise in their career, what's a piece of advice you have for them that would be sort of, you know, helpful towards that goal? What we do as leaders will never have any direct, how do I say it? It'll have direct impact on the people we lead and through the people we lead will get results. But what we do, nobody cares about what we do. They care about the results we produce. They care about how well our team responds to us, don't care how impressive we are. They don't care how smart we are. They don't care how hard we work. They care about the results that we deliver and how well does our team work together and work with us, and how well do we inspire our team? The moment we want to show off and say, look at me, we're not going to get that promotion and we're not going to be as effective. So we have to put our ego aside, we have to put ourselves aside, and we have to trust that the results that we drive through, inspiring our team will get us noticed. And if we look for, if we look for direct acknowledgment of who we are, it's never going to happen. I find that that's a huge challenge for leaders. Right. And I feel like that advice almost could have been the advice for the next piece of advice I'm going to ask you for as well, because I think one thing that I see leaders continue to struggle with is recalibrating what a productive day looks like for them. Right? And it's especially pronounced lower in the sort of leadership pipeline, so to speak, which is when you go from being an individual contributor to being a manager, really letting go of having your hands on all the work and having to recalibrate that meetings are a part of the work, spending an entire day in meetings is actually potentially the expectation. And that is a full day's worth of work. And that sort of doing, doing things meetings kind of continues to, like, change as you kind of go up, up and up and up. So I think brilliant piece of advice around, right? Nobody, nobody actually cares what you're doing with your time necessarily. And if you're, if you're overly focused on what you're doing with your time, perhaps your focus is misplaced. Right. And thinking about your team and what they're achieving. Let me flip that and say, so the leader who's just been promoted, right? Because nobody teaches a director how to stop being a manager. Nobody teaches a VP how to stop being a director. Right. It's few and far between when companies actually attend to that challenge. So someone's just been promoted, they've just kind of stuck that landing, so to speak. What's one piece of advice you have for those folks who have kind of just taken that elevated role? Well, I'm going to roll it two pieces into one. The first is help the people we lead understand they're capable of more and help those people learn to become leaders themselves. Because once they become leaders, then we're not, we're no longer necessary at that level. And that's when we get promoted, when we're not necessary at that level. And we help people become the best they can and we help our, our team when we help those individuals. And it won't be all of them, we'll help some of them become leaders. And when we do that, then the results show themselves and that gets noticed. Yeah. Yep. Spot on. So, Randy, for those listening here today that want a little more Randy Lyman in their lives, tell us a little bit about, you know, where, where can they find you, where can they find their books? What would you like them to know as they're. As this podcast is winding down? Well, the best place to find my book and workbooks and other offerings is on, on the major online bookseller. I'm not going to use the name because otherwise you get blocked in certain circles. Sure. But through my website, randyleman lyman.com and that's r a n d y l y m dash n dot com so through my website they can get access to the book, they can get access to free offers, to tapping exercises, links to my social media handles. Instagram is where I primarily push things. But through the website they can also see the programs I offer, which is just being put together right now in a, in a more standard format for coaching opportunities. Because when we can help leaders become more and they can help the people they lead become more, we have a positive impact on the world. And that's my goal. It's not about selling books. This is about helping the world become a better place and helping people find fulfillment and happiness and success. Awesome. Well, before we wind down, just sort of out of, out of curiosity, as you're, as you're sharing this here, do you find yourself working more with individuals from a coaching perspective or groups and teams like. And how does that take shape differently. Leaders first help leaders find more clarity and learn how to show up differently and then oftentimes end up working with their teams, their management teams or leadership teams, whatever that might be, to help integrate more of the philosophy of service based leadership into the entire organization. So I like to start with the leader one on one and help them find ways to understand themselves better and show up with more clarity. Awesome. Randy. This was a lot of fun, unexpected conversation. Fun conversation. I really appreciate you being here today. Well, you're welcome, Ken. It was a lot of fun. Your questions are perfect. Awesome. Thank you. Take it easy. That brings us to the end of our episode thank you for listening. I'd encourage you to head on over to my website Kent Coach and start a conversation with me there. Or check out my promoted leader Toolkit at Kent Coach Toolkit. Before you go on with your day, please take a moment to leave a rating and a review. Wherever you listen to podcasts, click the five stars that helps put this podcast in front of more ears. Till next time, take it easy.