Jobs Report: As Hiring Slows, America Works CEO Explains Impact on Vulnerable Job Seekers, with Dr. Lee Bowes

Speaker A: Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts where your source for personal, professional and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner oriented content around all things leadership, hr, talent management, organizational development and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts. Dr. Lee Bose, welcome to the conversation today.

Speaker B: Welcome. Thank you.

Speaker A: It is a pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from Connecticut. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today we're going to be talking about the latest jobs data, recent jobs reports and slowing in hiring and really how that's impacting American workers, uh, particularly the more vulnerable job seekers and more vulnerable populations. Um, Dr. Bose, uh, has a lot of expertise in this area and is chief executive officer of American Works, which is a private workforce development organization founded in 1984. Uh, so I think this will just be a really fascinating conversation, really timely and important topic and one I think that's on the forefront of a lot of people's minds, ah, certainly those looking for jobs, uh, but I think all of us, uh, because so many of us are impacted and touched by this, if we're not currently looking, we most certainly know of and have friends and family members who are looking. Um, and yeah, this, it's a challenging time I think for everyone and this is a public policy issue and social uh, issue that I think is not going away, that we're going to have to uh, figure out how to address. And it's going to be a long hard slog I think to, to be able to address this in a meaningful, sustainable way. As we get started. I just wanted to share just a little bit more about Lee and give uh, her a chance to share a little bit about herself. As I mentioned, she is CEO of America Works, uh, and joined the company in 1987 and co developed the workforce theory which emphasizes private sector employment as the primary path out of poverty. Founded in 1984, American Works, or America Works, is a national workforce development organization committed to delivering real jobs, real support and real results. Um, Dr. Lee, anything you would like to share with audience by way of your own personal background or context before we dive on in?

Speaker B: Sure. I mean I have been interested in doing this for years. When I was very young, um, we called my parents culture vultures because they would make sure we spent our weekends going to museums and uh, doing worthwhile things. Going to concerts in the evening that were classical, et cetera. And um, we used to go A lot to the Metropolitan Museum in New York. And my father would always take this trip, ah, into Harlem. And I remember saying to him, why are all these men standing around in the middle of the day? Because it was some Friday or Saturday or in the summer, any of the days. And he told me that this is unemployment. This is what happens when we have racism and discrimination. These are people who don't have opportunities. It resonated so much with me that I knew from very young age that I wanted to somehow help in that way. I knew I wanted to set up an organization that could help low income people. I really had that opportunity, uh, right from I went to graduate school at Columbia University, uh, before I did my PhD. I always worked full time. School was part time for me. And because I didn't, we didn't have all the money in the world. Like I said, they lived on the theory that somehow God was going to provide everything we needed. I, I recognized that wasn't fully true. So I ended up, uh, meeting my mentor at Columbia and he used to say, all this money is being spent on social policy programs. We're giving handouts, money, we're giving counseling, counseling, counseling. We set up eliminating barriers to various things. But if we made work the central social policy, really none of the rest of it would be necessary. We should think about work and build all of the supports someone needs in order to go to work. Which so struck me because the minute I could work, I started working. I probably will say I learned more in the workplace, even, you know, being a waitress and then becoming manager of the restaurant before I was out of college. I just knew the value and what it did for me in terms of confidence, but also taught me how to manage, how to, you know, multitask, which is also necessary. And I was really wedded to the idea that we had to do it and we couldn't do it fully in the public sector. I had run lots of programs where they would put people into, uh, training that was geared to get them a job, say being part of a cleanup or janitorial crew. The jobs just were not at volume open in the public sector and where they were growing was always the private sector. So I really molded my thinking about it and how we even run the business. Today we're in 21 different states around the country. I have what is close to 400 staff. Uh, we're expanding in particular in Wisconsin this year. Um, and we just started in Washington state. So we're always looking for new areas where people are also thinking about employment. And the one other thing I would say is if unemployment is very high, uh, which is interesting right now because it doesn't look that high. It's much higher than we think we.

Speaker A: I mean, let's acknowledge for just a moment that issue, because for one, yes, it is actually even the actual number that gets reported, which is, uh, artificially lower than it is. Right. Um, it's still. That number's high. Uh, higher than it should be and higher than it has been in a long time. Um, but that's. It's artificially low. And it's artificially low because we have so many people that have given up, that have left. Right. That have left even trying, looking for work. So they're not counted in the number. We have so many people underemployed, um, that have a job, but they're not fully gainfully employed. So they're counted as employed, but they're not really truly employed, um, the way they should be. Uh, the number is not really telling us what. What it should be. Um, and that's a real problem. So many people look at jobs reports, and they're largely misleading. We'll get more into that in a little bit. But anyway, sorry, I just wanted to mention that.

Speaker B: No, uh, John, you actually touched on something. Most people don't realize that the unemployment rate does not include people who are not actively looking. So they say, well, look, it is pretty good. They start arguing with their family members who aren't working. But you and I know you, uh, just articulated it, that the data isn't truthful about how many people are really out there needing a job.

Speaker A: So, yeah, the more people who get discouraged and stop looking, they just fall off. And then all of a sudden, I mean, which is kind of bizarre when you think about it. Right? Those people absolutely should be counted. Uh, that would be a much truer picture. But they're not.

Speaker B: Right? Right. That's true. And, uh, we all see them examples in our own families and in our communities. And, uh. But I think we, you and I, Joan, are seeing it more and more for a real pattern of growth. Older people who should be in the workforce, men 25 to 55, they've opted out. And now we have our young people who we will see it, as the resumes get produced, jump around every six months. You know, it used to be you'd expect to see longevity before somebody leaves a job, and that's no longer true. And there are a whole host of reasons for it. But, uh, yes, this is the. The new dawn of a whole New era that we're facing as a country.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And it really is heartbreaking when I see you, uh, know, I have people in my life who. You have. They've given up looking. You know, in some. In some cases, it's age discrimination. And, you know, so they're a little bit older, and they've, you know, they've just kind of thrown their hands in the air because they can't even get past the ats. Um, you know, they submit, uh, job applications into the ether that then get screened, um, you know, by some AI, and they just don't even make it past initial screenings, despite decades of experience and judgment. And, you know, it's blatant age discrimination just baked into these systems. Um, and they don't know what to do. Um, you know, I have. I have actually. So I sing in a community choir, and last night I was at choir practice, and one of my friends in the choir. I just feel so bad for him. He's been looking for two years. He actually still is counted in the unemployment number. He's actively looking. Uh, he has been actively looking, but, um, he has some, uh, health challenges, and that has impacted his ability to work. And. Yeah, I mean, he's been looking for two years, and it's just heartbreaking. He.

Speaker B: He.

Speaker A: He can work, but people, you know, aren't willing to. To. To take a bet on him, you know, And I don't know, it's just. It's heartbreaking, uh, when you see people who are willing, whether it's age, disability, or a thousand other things, reasons, um, why people may not be able to get the job, that they're willing to do the, you know, the work that they're willing to do. And so, so often, you know, your, Your. Your dad, um, what a great lesson, you know, when your dad pointed out saying this is racism, um, I'm so glad that that's how he framed it at the time. Rather than what so many other people. The lesson so many other people get taught when they're children and their parents may say, you know, they're lazy, they don't want to work, you know.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like that. That is how a whole different half of the country get taught. Um, and rather than being taught about systemic racism and being taught about barriers, um, and disproportionate, you know, um, challenges that different populations face, uh, and privilege and all these different things that. That are realities for so many different people. Um, you know, a lot of people are just taught, you know, these people don't even want to Work, they're just lazy. They just are happy to take handouts. And sure there may be some people that are don't want to and are happy to take handouts, but that could be said about any group. Right. And in the vast majority of people would prefer to just have dignity and work and provide for their families and they would not prefer to not have meaning and purpose and sit around all day and not do anything. Right. Um, and it's just sad when you see it. People just feel so hopeless when they're in those situations.

Speaker B: They do. And that then becomes probably the thing when they walking into an interview or presenting their resume, it's their psychological feeling it's going to fail. That just reinforces the fact it will fail. Um, and that really knows no income barrier. That's because we see it among people like your friend, highly skilled, had a career and there's just a downhill spiral. And I think especially with the men out of the workforce, that is a lot of the issue. Because to take a lesser job than what they had built their career upon seems like a step backwards. Um, and yet that's precisely what they need to do to bring themselves back into the workforce. They need to take something a little bit less.

Speaker A: That's true, that's true. But a lot of employers won't even do that. A lot of employers don't want to hire someone who would be over qualified for a job. Right. Because then they see them as a flight risk. They see, you know, there's just so many layers to this of uh, how challenging it becomes once you want. And layoffs are so pervasive. Right. So this is not like it's most often not their fault. Like it's not like they got fired because they're a bad performer or something like that. Like it is literally m most often not anyone's fault. They're just, you know, the company is just mass layoffs, getting rid of headcount for whatever reason, they've decided they want to double down on AI whatever. And now this person has lost their job and it's hard to find a job. And all of a sudden they go six months or a year without a job and now all of a sudden there's a gap on their resume. And so now the next employer is like, I don't know, they have a gap on their resume and now it's harder for them to get a job. And then they, so now they're like, okay, maybe I have to take a lesser job to get back in. But the employer saying, oh, I Don't know, you're overqualified now you're a flight risk. So then it's even harder to get a job and it just snowballs. Right. It's just, it's kind of ridiculous.

Speaker B: You're right, it isn't that the, just as people say about the young people, they're, they're not as engaged, they don't want to put in the time. It's. And the older people who say, you know, I lost the job. Not all the employer really wants is someone who's going to show up every day, get their job done and have a nice attitude. And all of that goes out the window as they think, well there's, hey, unemployment just dropped. It's, I uh, should be able to get the best people, I'll get, you know, people who will be able to compete it. And then they let people go and then the employer has now been part of the problem, not a part of the solution. And we do see exactly what you're talking about. The loyalty isn't that the worker employer is the one who doesn't have a commitment towards long term term employment. And as you know some of the most profitable companies in the world like a Facebook, who have just a few thousands of people, make trillions of dollars and are constantly saying well we don't need this division anymore, so rather than transferring them or retraining them, let's just get rid of them, it's cheaper. Um, so it is the disengagement by the employers as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, well and to that point like it's so interesting to, to note kind of the different strategic human capital perspectives. Right. So like the, I mean it's, it's no, um, I, I guess it makes sense that, that we would see culturally like vastly different strategies but like you have all the tech companies in the US with our kind of short termism and our kind of self centered kind of me first approach, um, in the US versus more collectivistic cultures and, and you know, more long term orientation and other parts of the world, uh, etc. But like I think of some of the tech companies in the US and how, how they've approached these things versus like even I think it was IKEA in Europe just fairly recently. There's a big um, report on how you know they've, they've, they've just like everyone else, like they've, they've used AI and they realized hey, you know, we don't need these thousands of customer support people um, because we have AI systems now that are actually More consistent, better. Um, our customers actually prefer them over our human customer support people oftentimes, um, because they, they just get better answers faster, um, they're, they're, they're helped faster, et cetera. Right. So IKEA could have done what so many other companies have done and they could just say, okay, you know, we'll keep a kind of bare bones staff to do, you know, oversee and to do what needs to be done, but otherwise we're going to largely have an AI system, um, and get rid of thousands of people. They didn't do that though. They, they did the opposite. They did what you were saying. They decided, hey, we're, how could we utilize these people? Uh, how could we leverage our human capital in a way that's going to build our business rather than just assume these people are dead weight, they retrain, they re skilled, this whole thousands of people, this whole uh, group of employees to be more kind of uh, uh, interior design, not fully, but partially interior design type people. So that instead of just kind of normal customer support, just answering basic questions, now they could actually help, uh, be like interior design consultants with people who are calling in, talking about furniture, talking about different knickknacks, whatever. And they saw uh, their business skyrocket and all of a sudden it increased things uh, like 2, 3x of what they had been doing. So it clearly was a huge benefit. All because they just decided we're not just going to throw our people under the bus, but we're going to actually leverage, we're going to reskill them, we're going to leverage them to then be augmented by AI, uh, to do even more better stuff. Contrast that with so many of the US companies that have just said, uh, we don't need people anymore, we're just going to throw them away. And then you have all these people then are floundering when the labor market gets flooded with all these thousands of people that are getting laid off that then don't really have a place to go. And then collectively, you know, there's just all of these people that are unemployed that have months and months and sometimes even years go by that they're trying to find work. And it just this spiral problem, um, for all the things we've been discussing, it just becomes uh, more and more of a challenge for them individually, but then also for communities, for society as a whole. Uh, it's just such a stark contrast. And I think, you know, companies can learn from this. I think we, from a public policy perspective can learn from this a bit. Um, we can do better. Like it doesn't have to be this way. Um, we've kind of created the mess that we are swimming in.

Speaker B: I think we've all had the frustration though. I have. And just this week, you know, trying to get through the AI answering. I had to order some medicine for my husband and it was like. And I was hours saying, I can't. I need to speak to someone. There's a special situation here. And it's like.

Speaker A: And you never get to a person.

Speaker B: I am your AI bot and I'm going to answer all your questions. No you haven't. Could you let me talk to somebody? I'm. Emergency it is. Please hang up and dial 91 1. No, not that kind of emergency. It's like, you know, uh, it went on and I just. I couldn't even face it anymore. So I finally just went in and did what I had to buy. But it was so aggravating to the point where it's not the same. I just am dropping ADT as a security system for all of uh, our companies because there was a problem. There was a break in at one of the companies in one of the states. We were trying to reach adt. Nobody personally could answer to set the system so that we could open the doors the next day. Day. But have a security system on. No. There was a fire next door that ADT shut down. We couldn't get anyone on the phone. Goodbye adt. I had to use a smaller company. It's like you are being left out of the market because everyone can go on Amazon and buy whatever those are. Ring something. And um, nobody needs you anymore. So why don't you answer your phone anyway? So I think that it's backfiring just as if you remember the big push for overseas people at the banks to answer your phone calls. What did you say? I've given you the spelling of my name. I've pronounced it five or six times. It's not that complicated. Please repeat it. I can't under, you know, uh, whoever the person was. So they had to pull. In fact, Utah is one of the places where they got a lot of backroom services in the United States because it just didn't work very well having people in these countries like India answer the phone because there was a communication problem. So I do think this will be a cycle with using AI where they're going to have to basically allow people to talk to live people as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, there will be a pendulum swing. I think you're right. Um, well, I'm noting The time. And we're going to have to end here in a little bit, but let's. Let's spend the last few minutes together to talk about what we can do about this. Right. Because we all know it's a problem. Um, there, you know, there have been companies that have not followed the trend, that have not just laid off masses of people to double down on A.I. um, and there are certainly other parts of the world, and there are countries that have dealt with this in different ways. But. But here we are in the US this is where we're at. We have unemployment, um, rates that are continuing to increase, not just the actual number that gets reported, but also the underemployment and the people that give up and just fall off that are even being counted. What do we do about it?

Speaker B: Well, what we've learned is that the most important thing we can do is, number one, emphasize the values of work. So we simulate that in our offices. We make sure people come in, and they come in 15 minutes early before we start opening various things up for them. We do a lot of in classes, training, and a lot of that is to get at, why haven't you been successful, really, exploring what they've done. Um, we have somebody who has redesigned a tech person who opted out of Google and Facebook and likes working with smaller businesses. A system where one application that he gets completed can feed into hundreds of different employers. So the same information is required to sit there and try to reorganize every application so that you could sit and apply to hundreds of different. It's usually time consuming. I mean, we could talk about how the centralization of Staples, having all the resumes go into a central office, and then people get some kind of psychological test and they have to complete it. But every time you walk into Staples, there's no one to help you. I mean, it's like. And there's help wanted on the door. And I'll say to the general manager, uh, we can get you people. What's going on? Well, they have to go through the central office. It has to send me back resumes. What if I could show you two or three people you're going to like? And then you call central office. Because I've already made sure the applications are there and, you know, you push them from that end. But there are a lot of things that are set up as roadblocks and that really hold people like your friend back from even having a conversation about your background and what it is you could do. But what we're doing is we're becoming a network for people. I mean, as you know, networks are still whether your friend is working at that company, a relative is working at a company, you've been to a meeting and it's people who went to college with you or it's an association that you've joined. And there's someone who says, I have a couple of openings in my, you know, they love my work and they've asked me do I have one or two people to refer. That is still primary. So what we try to do is become that network and we do it for people who don't have a way in. So half of our staff are out talking, uh, to companies and saying, what are the openings you have right now? What's your biggest problem? And it's always the same thing. You know, people don't have the right attitude, they don't have the right attendance. They're always, you know, coming in for an interview and asking, how many days can I work remotely and how many days do I get for vacation? Not two years from now, but immediately. And it's like setting a tone that is, uh, not what people want. Um, you know, the people who file consistent workers comp claims and become chronic at it. Now there are ways that employers are finding out about that. So really having the right presentation, but also maximizing how many places you can apply to and trying to circumvent some of those systems. But the most important thing is why? What happened? What happened on these interviews? Let's talk about it. So we run these groups for people who have chronically been unable despite to even get interviews. I mean, we're talking about not getting interviews. Um, and there are usually some very specific things they can do. Um, ISS put a lot of emphasis on teaching people how you should be dressing for the workplace, how you should speak when you go in. Especially with some of our low income young people. Eye contact is so important. They've never done eye contact. But you know what? Over the last couple of years, I've seen you start a job and before you're there three weeks, you're dressing the way everyone else dresses. You know, you're not bringing a Looney Tune lunchbox in which some of the people with developmental disabilities do. You're taking your lunch in a brown bag like everyone else there does, or you're going out. And it makes such a difference to have those, those kinds of groups. And now those groups exist all over the country. A lot of them are volunteer and all. And we just happen to be paid to really help people who are out of work. But we run a couple of different one stop centers. That's part of the American system. All around the country that labor department runs where you can walk in, use the computers, take classes, you can meet like minded people, set up kind of information sharing with them. And, and what we try to do in the one stops is really set smaller groups together so people can work together with others who are like that. I mean, I lived in a town where everybody was in publishing. I mean, like, wasn't newspapers, it was magazines. And I didn't realize what had happened because it wasn't in the unemployment data. But all the men were picking up the children at school. And um, there's something really odd. And then I saw this magazine folded, this place laid off, this newspaper folded. And you know, the, the thing is, a lot of those people reemerged in the podcast world, reemerged in the substack world. They found other avenues to continue and they've become very creative about their later careers and they were able to adapt. Um, and that's often very, very difficult. So I would say one of my biggest learning points was we had a company in Indianapolis and all the people who had laid off were men who had been in the hierarchy of like going out and playing golf. They were a vice president of this company or that company. Um, and the big thing was every time they took a new job, it was like, no one tells me what to do. It's like, there's no chain of command. I'm like, chain of command. It sounds like the military. Well, what do you mean? It's like you're supposed to basically brainstorm with your peers and your subordinates every day to come up new, fresh ideas. And it was like so out of the realm of their previous jobs. And that's one of the issues with the missing men that is overlooked. The their lack of multitasking ability, their lack of flexibility to really, you know, get down in the. We're all equal here. You know, you need to ask them for advice. The people who are answering the phone know more about your business than you'll ever know because you haven't answered the phone. So it's a real learning curve and I think that it's there for people, but they have to invest the time and not. I just had this conversation with a young woman if she wants to be an influencer and it's like, you know, it kills me because I barely know what they are. I mean, I know what it is because I have two daughters in their 30s. And they talk about that, but I, like, get back to work and don't tell me about the influencers. But it's, it's the whole idea that this some kind of a golden goose out there. And she hasn't had a serious corporate job since she resigned. Resigned from Spotify. And I'm like, okay, you need, if you really think you want to command six figures, you need to go into a company and you need to sell yourself and you need to take a lower level job. I can't do that. I can't afford it. Well, how are you affording this? You know? Well, my parents are helping. They pay my rent. Well, how long will that go on? Well, they're threatening me right now. Okay, so now's the time. So, I mean, uh, but I see it every day. And the thing that the people we work with, whether they are people in the disabilities program, they're people who are from the inner cities, they were incarcerated. Whatever their story is, they are so grateful for even an interview. And, you know, it breaks the employer's heart. These people come with their stories, very professional, but, you know, they really, really, really want to work. So when we look at data, six months to nine months from there, we see that these are people who are staying with those employers. And it's interesting to me that some of the small employers are the ones who help them find apartments. They have, you know, through the lunchroom, talked about this and that. And then one thing I'll say about the people on disability, they can be on the Social Security disability for the rest of their lives. It often takes them two or three years more to get into the system. We just tell them, you want to go to work. Well, I want. I can't give up my benefits. Well, you don't have to right away. You can try out, uh, a job, you can try different jobs, and we'll help you do that. And the first thing they say is, I'm not. I don't feel lonely anymore. I go to work, I have a coworker. It's like, yes, you know, things you don't even think about that are so valuable about the place of work. It isn't just what you're putting out there. It's the fact that you're working on teams and the fact that you suddenly know that somebody went away for the weekend and you can say to them, how was it? What did you see? Where did you go? I mean, it's just all that. A, uh, friend of mine used to call it schmoozing. He was German, Jewish, you know, uh, all these Yiddish words that really needle mean so much, but used to say the value of work is this schmoozing. You get to talk to people. And I do see that played out, especially today when people are more and more lonely. So it's not only self esteem that comes with the paid check that you earn versus just a handout, it's also all the other things that go into it. Uh, UK did a study once. They found that six months out of work was like smoking three packs of cigarettes every day. In terms of health, your health deterioration when you're not out working. It's shocking how much, how fast that will deteriorate. We got a job for a young man who was morbidly obese, but he was working at Yankee State Stadium selling hot dogs. He was running up and down the bleachers. He lost 30 pounds just in a summer job. And they kept him on. So as the events change over from, you know, ball games to arenas to, for music and other things, they kept him. And he's still working there and has been promoted. But it's amazing how your health deteriorates when you don't have place to go. And it's true, this data, uh, is alarming to you and to me because it looks low. I mean, we used to say full employment when I was getting my PhD was not that far from 4.2, it's 3.6. And this is not full employment that we have because people have stopped looking out of discouragement or they're young and they think there's some easy way to become famous out there. Um, sold to them by Facebook and the Internet and all that. But, um, and they're, you know, the parents are enabling it. I had a friend who's dying homes for both her children. And she's like, well, we were the golden age of employment, my husband and I. We both had good jobs, we had pensions, we had this. So we have to share it with our children. And that's not really a solution at all. We have to do a combination of making sure they get out there, do meaningful work and have some kind of a commitment and figure that out and help support them to get through this hump. But that's sort of what I observe, what I see, what my studies have taught me. And I am very concerned that we are going to be in this modality for a while because, you know, I, I see the lack of people in things like restaurants. I see, um, the fact that people aren't giving tips when they go to get a cup of coffee and the next person will start complaining, the actual person preparing the coffee will say, I used to get tips, now I don't. My employer factored that into my salary. So there's so many ramifications right now. But we have to stay optimistic and keep trying. And that's what we do. We look at it more and more creatively every year and we try to build things in, around it. So I would encourage everyone to make use of the career centers that are operated by the federal government, by states, in every state. Because when they walk in the door and I have someone doing it, he told me, I have an autistic brother. I make the assumption when someone walks in the door, I don't care if they're a former businessman, they need help navigating what's going on out there. And I break it down into smaller pieces like we're going to do this here. All the computer time you need and how we're going to help you manage it. AI has been great for job search, for resume prep, for thank you notes and all of those traditional things, but there really has to be again the human dynamic that says you're going to be able to do this. It's interesting the jobs you're looking at because we helped someone last week. Let me tell you what happened. Telling those stories help people sitting in a group with like minded people to talk about why this is happening to them right now and how do they get around it. We bring in employers to run employment employer panels so that they can say this is what we're really looking for. And you may be missing the boat because you don't know when you walk through the door and um, what things are being, you know, you don't realize the receptionist is also going to be like, if you're sitting on your phone and laughing and talking to somebody, that's going to be noted in your actual application. So it's, it's been very interesting. And um, I think what you're doing is a huge service to the country because people need what you're talking about and I see it and you see it and anything we can do to help people is a wonderful thing.

Speaker A: Well, Lee, I appreciate that and I appreciate all of your insights, the work that you do. Um, all of this reminds me, I don't know if you recall the old 90s movie Dave where the guy is an actor who impersonates the president and then I don't even remember why, but he ends up actually going to the White House and like pretending to be the president. But his, his whole thing is like I want to get people jobs and I think he actually works in a temp agency before uh, going to impersonate the president. Anyways, the whole thing is about him wanting to get people jobs because there's something about people, you know, working and, and the dignity that they feel and the self respect and, and just the self esteem and what changes in people when they're given that opportunity. And I've seen it in the lives of people as well. And I've also seen the opposite. I've seen people who have been, had great careers and gainfully employed and have just really successful lives all of a sudden lose that confidence and lose so much of who they are in their identity because really no fault of their own. Like they get laid off and then they're just kind of getting this spiral of just um, frustration and, and it's so hard to get out of.

Speaker B: Um, it really is.

Speaker A: So we just need to keep doing this work. We need to keep supporting folks and, and uh, for anyone who's listening, you know, who may be in that situation, or anyone who's listening, who has a loved one or a friend who may be in this situation, um, just continue to help them, support them, help them network all those things, um, so we can get them back uh, to doing what they do and making a contribution because ultimately that will be better for them obviously, but for their families, for their communities, for society as a whole. Well, uh, we probably need to let you get on with your busy day, but as we wrap up, I just wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work and uh, then give us a final word for today.

Speaker B: Okay, well we are as I said, in different states, all over the country and the best way to access us is to go on our website, americaworks.com and you know, then you'll see how to get in touch with us and how to, if we have a program currently operating where you are. Um, but again I would also encourage people to look at the American Job Centers and that that's a resource that they should not just go in to use a computer to hit send, but really take advantage. I know when we run them we have all kinds of other services there and I think that that's something they should be doing automatically gives them peer group, gives them some self awareness, um, one of the best things in the world, you know this and I know this, get out and help someone else, you know, it doesn't matter that you're struggling to try to find a job. There is somebody who looks up to you who really could use a helping hand for lower level jobs. You help one person, it'll not only make your day, your week, your year, but it will also give you the confidence to walk into that next interview and tell them what you did for someone else. Employers are so impressed with that and I think we should never forget our service to other people and that, that's what makes us joyful, that's what gives us purpose, that's what will make us have confidence. And I think more of us should be doing that because there's nothing, you know, you could be top executive and lost your job and you're trying to find your way back in. But you started out, you know, you were answering phones at some place, you were running at a club, country club or whatever to help people get their golf games set up, their tennis games, whatever your jobs were as you were growing up, there are people struggling to find those as well. Help them out.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker A: Lee, it has been a pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out, get connected, find out more about what Lee and her team can do for you. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. You can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day. And I hope you all have a great week.

Speaker B: You too. Thank you so much. I've really appreciated this. Take care. M m,

Speaker A: thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe and please join us again soon.