Episode #628: Bridging Research, Digital Skills and Community Impact - with Vicki Ayton

Speaker A: Hi there and welcome back to another

Speaker B: edition of Scale Up Radio, the podcast brought to you by Smart90, inspired by the entrepreneurial Scale up system and designed to make navigating our Scale up journeys that little bit easier by learning from others experiences. I'm Kevin Brent and in today's episode I'm joined by Vicky Ayton who is the founder of Biz Ed and Biz Ed is a community interest company at cic, helping to bridge the gap between academic research and real world community impact. The with a particular focus on climate resilience, digital inclusion and building stronger local communities. And what makes this conversation particularly interesting is Vicky's experience of creating a financially sustainable social enterprise. And we explore the realities of operating as a cic, why grant dependency can create long term challenges, and the surprising barriers that organizations face when trying to balance commercial income with community impact. And we also discuss why digital skills have become essential for resilience, from basic online access right through to AI adoption, and why SMEs may be overlooking some of the AI expertise already sitting within younger generations. One standout message from this conversation is that digital skills are no longer optional, they are the foundation of resilience for individuals, communities and businesses alike. And if there's one thing that I encourage you to take away from this episode, it's this that organizations that create lasting impact are the ones that balance purpose with commercial resilience, creating sustainable income while staying true to their mission. Before we get started, most founders I speak to feel busy but stuck. Plenty happening with them and their teams, but not always clear on what genuinely matters most. This quarter, maybe they get to the end of each month having been really busy but not having made the progress they were after. And if that's you, the G90 summit is definitely worth a look. It's a structured half day where we work through everything, competing for your attention and your team's attention, getting clear on the three to five things that really must happen in the next 90 days and committing to them and building the system to make sure they actually happen. It's quarterly, it's virtual, it's 97 pounds. Just visit smart90.co.uksummit to find out more. And make sure you don't miss any future episodes of Scallop Radio by subscribing wherever you're listening to your podcast. And why not give us a follow? You can also nominate a guest for Scallop Radio if you know someone with an interesting scallop story, you can find find out how in the show notes. So for now Continue listening for the full discussion with Vicky.

Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of Scale Up Radio. I'm delighted today to be joined by Vicky Ayton, who is the founder of Biz Ed, a community interest company. So Vicky, welcome to Scale Up Radio.

Speaker C: Thank you. Nice to be here.

Speaker A: Great to see you. So tell us all about Bizzid. What's it all about?

Speaker C: What's it all about? Um, so we're a, ah, social enterprise, a community interest company based in Whitchurch North Shropshire. Uh, we've been going about three years now, uh, in the community. And how did it all. It's a bit of a story to tell about how it came about.

Speaker A: Right, okay.

Speaker C: Well, yeah, so I think sometimes a social enterprise is like a manifestation of a long journey. So there was probably a whole range of reasons I ended up running a social enterprise. But, um, the two, there was some big catalysts. One was Covid, like it would have been for a lot of people. Um, just recognizing that I'd sort of, I guess got so busy at work that I'd stopped paying attention to some of the things I really loved. And um, I also had at that point a young family, uh, busy work. And I just felt like I was just running and running and running all the time. Um, I was working at a university and on the sort of research side of environmental technologies, working with loads of amazing companies and, um, was also volunteering on like stem, STEM stuff with young people in schools and in the local library and other things. And after a while I was just like, I want to bring this together. I want to be still understanding more about the technologies that are going on and climate change and all the big picture stuff that's happening. But I also want to understand or be able to make sure that those technologies are uh, being accessed by our community. So how do we make sure that all this research that's happening over here does genuinely impact the people in our community? Because it felt sometimes that it was very, um. What's the right word? When intangible. Okay. Like we talk about all this stuff, but then I can never actually see it making an impact where we lived or on the people we knew in our lifetime, for example. Because sometimes research just gets stuck in this cycle of always being improved, always being improved before it reaches, Reaches people. Um, and so I sort of realized over time that there wasn't really a way of doing that working in the job that I was in. And um, I'd been working with companies for quite a long time suggesting they did X, Y or Z. And I Think I sort of had this realization that it's all very well saying it, but, you know, that only gets you so far sometimes. You got to do it. Um, so I decided to give my noticing and set up a social enterprise, um, focused on breaking down the barriers between employers, skills and employment. And that was based on my knowledge of all the. I guess the working at the university really showed me all the stuff that was going on with climate change. At the same time, because of COVID I'd become very switched on to digital and, um, the need to have good digital skills and tools to enable us to connect and work together and access all the stuff that's out there. And I just felt really important that it was really important that everybody should have some understanding of these two massive shifts we've got going on around climate and, um, digital.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: But what I felt working on the ground as a volunteer was that there was really very little visibility in the community itself from individuals about those two massive things that were impacting them every day and how that shaped into a social enterprise. As I feel like those two massive things that are going on shape so many decisions you make in your life. About where you invest, about where you live, about what career choice you make, about what advice you give your children, about what you do at school, about where you spend your time, and I think more generally about where you give your energy. And so sort of with that, uh, in the background, I was like, okay, well, we need something that bridges that gap, that doesn't see environmental and social impact are two separate things that just sit as part of the same system.

Speaker A: Sounds like a massive undertaking. So how did you go about it?

Speaker C: Well, trying to translate what's in my head into, uh, words is probably the first challenge. Um, but we started. So we've got, like, a range of things we do because we're talking about a whole system here, not just like a one, one item. Um, so we started by volunteering. So we were volunteering initially at the library and like digital volunteers. And then during COVID the library got closed in our town, which is Whitchurch, due to rack. Concrete.

Speaker A: Racked concrete.

Speaker C: Um, did you hear about that? Yeah. When the concrete starts to crumble.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So nothing to do with COVID just to do.

Speaker C: Just do that rat. Concrete happened, um, at the same time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And if you imagine that this was like the biggest building in the town. It housed a lot of community organizations, it delivered a lot of support and services. It had a theater, uh, big space. You know, it was the sort of Hub. Um, so I was volunteering there at the library. It got closed and then the council said we need somewhere for these people to still come. Would you set up a hub for digital inclusion? And I was like oh I'm just me. Um, you know, I've only just started. And they were like well don't worry, we'll help you. Let's get going. So um, I took on a little office space, um, recruited a uh, community manager to work with me sort of a day, a week, you know, eight hours a week. And then we've just built the sort of digital inclusion hub off the back of that slowly over time, learning on the way uh, what works and what doesn't work. But then at the same time I've tried to stay involved in the education around climate and um, also stayed involved in sort of skills, policy and research. Um, so yeah, so now we have sort of a range of things that we do. We still have our hubs for the community and we have um, a load of activity under that. And then we have um, sort of outreach work around climate education and digital and then we still do sort of policy and research for local government and universities um, around environmental social impact. So um, yeah, that's three years on now there's a team of um, sort of 20, 25 volunteers, um, five part time staff and uh, still me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So yeah, brilliant.

Speaker A: And I think you've had uh, a fair bit of recognition as well around what you're doing. That's how we would have got, recognized you and found you in the first place. So quite a lot of things have happened in those three years then. So when you look back on them, what, what would you look back and say that surprised you? Perhaps

Speaker C: lots. I think, I think I always. At the time when we first started, when we first started we were writing ebooks about inclusion and how employers could navigate the skill system. I think um, I was fairly comfortable in that space writing and being a little bit invisible and having time to like, yeah, develop your ideas and stuff like that. Whereas the reality of running a community space is it's quite quick and fast paced and it's very reactive. Um, and um, it's very uh, odds really with the sort of research phases. It's very different. Um, so yeah we've had some successes. Some of the big standout points I guess was um, we did a lot of work with the Green Jobs foundation and we published a report, our Green Jobs for Everyone, uh, would have been a year ago last March and that was um, a publication which is about championing the role of young people in the future jobs, especially green jobs, and, um, trying to move the narrative beyond what is a green job, which a lot of people get stuck in, and talking about the role of community organisations in terms of access and entry pathways into green skills and green careers, and trying to champion the role of the community and voluntary sector as well in the education and skills system. Because at the moment I still really strongly feel quite often it's not really valued or recognized, even though they do so much delivery. Um, they're not sort of. It's changing, things are changing. But they were never really eligible for the same funding or grants or structural funding that perhaps a training provider would or a limited company or a college or a university would get. So there's just some inequality there. Um, so we did that report that was great. We went for some awards last year. Um, so the Startup Awards and then the Great British Entrepreneur Awards, which I'm glad you reminded me, I wouldn't have thought about that. Um, so we, yeah, ah, we got Rural Startup of the Year in West Midlands and then we, uh, were finalists for the Great British Entrepreneur Awards for sustainability. Um, which is, you know. It was brilliant. Yeah, it was brilliant. Um, opportunity from little town.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Shropshire. To go to London with. Um, yeah, it was funny. It was like a proper country bumpkin going out in London for the night. Where the heck am I going? How do I get there? How do I get home?

Speaker A: Um, so who are the people at the end of the day that you're trying to influence? Is it business owners, is it schools? Is it communities? Who is it primarily?

Speaker C: Oh, I guess it's commissioners a lot of the time.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: And I feel very much, um, the commissioners can only commission what they know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So quite often. There was an example years back, uh, where I was working on a project around retrofit and I remember talking to construction employees about how the specification for that commission wasn't really deliverable because they hadn't specified it correctly. This is years back when retrofit was quite new. Um, and I feel very much like that now around green skills and sort of social impact work. I think people are just starting to understand what they mean by that better. There isn't the same sort of framework that you might have for assessing competencies in clear career path, like truck driver or pick another career path. I don't know. Bricklayer. There will be a set of competencies and skills you need. But how do you give somebody green skills for the future? How do you give somebody digital skills for the future. There are loads of qualifications out there, but I don't, they're not really mapped against um, I guess career resilience, economic resilience, employability, career transition, all the realities of where we're at now. They're just quite often, you know, they're a moment in time, a lot of these um, opportunities. And I think we just, I think it's the commissioners, I want to say you need to bake in flexibility, you need to allow for change and transition and it needs to be long term. And I know that's something that a lot of organizations are trying to do, um, but it doesn't really fit with the current sort of funding cycle, which is short term or political cycle, which appears to be quite short term too. Um, yeah, there just needs to be a long, longer term approach to how we support our communities, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what can we think about as business owners, you know, maybe of small and uh, medium sized businesses. You know, what, what should we be thinking about from your perspective?

Speaker C: Well, I think I sit in this seat where I think climate change is inevitable. Climate change is happening. That's the seat I've chosen to sit in. And that's based on reading and seeing lots of evidence that climate change is here. So if you sit in a seat and you accept that climate change is inevitable, what does that look like for you, for your business, for your organization over the next 10 or 20 years? And how can your business respond to that? Challenge is where I normally begin. Because if you're, there's no way you can ignore it. It's like saying there's a financial crisis coming up and it's not going to impact my business or, you know, my workforce might get Covid and they won't be here tomorrow. These uh, are big things that are happening. You've only got to look at the impact on um, businesses of this heat wave over the next few days and how many companies and businesses will struggle over the next few days. Just heard schools are closing. Transport, my team are in Birmingham today. They've had to leave early because all the trains have been canceled. It's very disruptive. So I don't know how much longer people, and a lot of people will still say, oh, it's just a blip, it'll be better next week, it'll be better next year. But even if that is the case, you cannot ignore the volume of extreme weather events that we keep having. I remember planning an event not that long ago and we had snow out the blue and now we're planning an event this week and we've got a heat wave out, uh, of the blue. So how do you, how does your company navigate that and how, what things do you need to put in place to be more resilient? And if you unpick that and think, okay, what is the root things we would need to do to understand this better? It's around climate change and it's around digital. There are two sort of core sets of knowledge and skills that can help a business be, or at least start to become more resilient, I think, for the future. And when you say digital, what do

Speaker A: you mean by digital? Are we talking artificial intelligence? What are we talking about?

Speaker C: So I'm not, I mean I do work with AI and we've got partners of AI. I see. AI is very much a tool, a tool to get things done. And I'm still a bit wary about AI. Like a lot of people, I'm using it, I don't want to give it everything. Um, but where the, what do I mean by digital? I think it's all levels. So the base, uh, a lot. You'd be surprised how many people still have a real lack of digital skills. Like a lot of people don't have a smartphone where we are still, they're still on, or they don't have a phone, they don't have a new email address. They may be able to surf the web, but they certainly couldn't use a Word document.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: Um, so there are many sort of day to day digital skills like ordering your shopping, paying for a bill, accessing services, booking an appointment that a lot of people just don't have the skills to do. And there's lots of barriers that they might face to overcome. And then there's the next level, which is actually skills in the workplace, which is, you know, a lot of the barriers now around using the software that people have in the workplace, which has moved on a lot. If you've not been in the workplace for two to three years, and so getting people back into the workplace with a decent level of digital skills and then you've got AI adoption and how that translates into your business's workflows and processes and systems, what does that mean for how that AI agent is onboarded and part of your day to day culture, what does that look like in terms of data security and risk? Um, there's a lot to think about at the moment around digital at M. The same time as managing these big weather events, they keep hitting us and what that means for resilience and I do think I come across a lot of people at the moment that are feeling battered by both and at ah, a business level, but also at an employee level trying to navigate cost of living, um, and the worries that that brings. And as a business owner you're navigating increased taxes, payroll, trying to keep your business going as well as looking after your employees. Yeah. You see you're sort of been hit on all sides and you sort of. I'm starting to see some of that, um, result in lots of organizations, um, stopping or closing or just not carrying on because, um, I do feel like it's a really tough. I don't know if this is just me because it's three years in, but it does feel tough at the moment.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I would echo that and I think we're seeing what you're saying. Absolutely.

Speaker C: M. I think there's a lot of people who've been holding on, uh, waiting for, thinking tomorrow will be better, tomorrow will be better. And now there's no real hope there in terms of the business economy side. I mean the oil thing obviously has had a huge impact, but there's no. Normally, uh, there might be, oh, there's this incentive coming or there's going to be a tax reduction or the price of food's going to come down or the, you know, there'll be something that will make a difference hopefully to the outgoings or the incomings. But I can't see these levers being pulled at the moment. We're not going to get a reduction in the outgoings and we're not going to get an increase in the incomings. We've just got to try and make do with what we've got and either reduce our costs or make more profit. That's basically it, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And we all know how that works. But.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned, you know, with the green jobs and the role of young people and of course with the technology side of things and particularly AI, there's challenges that are being, um, that that's creating as well for young people, uh, in the role, isn't it? How does that tie in with what you're doing?

Speaker C: So it's interesting because a lot of green technology requires digital and data skills. They're like a core skill for a lot of new technolog. So actually if you look at energy, renewables, construction, um, anything around nature monitoring, environmental monitoring, restoration planning, surveying, you know, a lot of them have digital and data skills as a core skill set because anything that requires monitoring or change over time you know, you're going to probably use some sort of digital equipment and, um, data to analyze that change over time. So actually, digital and data skills are intrinsic to a lot of the new emerging technologies that are coming through. Um, they're sort of baked in. If you don't have those digital skills, it's going to be much harder to access those roles. And that's not just new entries into workforce. Those that are already in the workforce that need to be upskilled. So digital, the digital aspect of green and emerging technologies is massive. Um, in terms of, like, is AI displacing these new roles that are coming in, which I think what you're saying, I think the thing is, if you can get an AI tool to do a basic skill, it sounds brilliant. I think it sounds brilliant. You don't need to take the risk of employing a young person, which you might see as a risk. Um, you can use an AI tool to do that. But the reality quite often is that AI tool may not be all it's cracked up to be. And, um, I think there has been a big shift towards big companies adopting AI and perhaps reducing the intake they have of new ah entries. I would say that isn't as true across smaller businesses. Um, and I do think that young people who have AI skills are more attractive to a lot of employers. Because if you think about who is working within those businesses, especially smaller businesses, you may not have the investment or resource to teach yourself about AI, let alone cascade it throughout your company and bake in new workflows and processes. These guys who are coming out of college or university or wherever, they've been using it for the last three or four years. So to them it's not a foreign concept. Uh, it's something they, you know, they just, they just use and they're not frightened of it and they're willing to have a go with it. And I, um, think the combination of a young person with all that creativity and potentially some good digital or AI skills is a real asset. And I think the challenge has been, I think for employers is just there's so much risk at the moment that to take on a new recruit as well a young person and offer them a job feels like another risk. And I think the cost now of taking on somebody as a new employee is high. Um, so you've got to have the work there, um, to employ them.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: Um, so is it putting them off recruiting young people? I think for some employers they're testing it out. I, uh, do agree there. I, uh, do Think though for a lot of employers, they don't yet trust the technology. I think we've seen quite a lot of companies have embedded AI and then sort of rolled it back because the adoption hasn't gone as well as they thought it would within the organization or it hasn't added the efficiency that they hoped. So it's about finding the right product fit on the AI for the organization, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I think that's really interesting because I think there was a Harvard Business Review. Admittedly it's going back, um, four or five, maybe even six months now I think, but it was talking about something like 85% of AI projects have not delivered, um, what, what they had hoped for.

Speaker C: Mhm. The capabilities. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think anyone who uses AI and I, I do use a bit of AI, it's, you have to be on it with your prompts and then still you might get all the way through and then it's not quite delivered what you want. So you've got to go back and start again and then you get to the end of it. You think, God, could I have done, uh, that? I mean, have I got a better result than I would have done if I just used a smart kid that would have sat next to me and talked to me? You know, I think there's, you've got to weigh up the cost. And then at the same time as you use net AI, uh, you're thinking about all the water it's using, all the energy it's using the software license fee you're paying and have you got a better result? Or if you got the same result as a million other people that are all using the same AI and therefore have you lost your unique selling point that you would have had if you just done it yourself?

Speaker A: And it's very easy, isn't it, for us to ignore the green aspect, the sustainability aspect of AI? We know, probably most of us have heard how much, well know that it uses a lot of energy, but we probably don't really think about it, um, on a daily basis as we're typing in our, typing in our prompts, um, so with those two hats on that you're wearing, you know. Well, how do you see that? As the, as, as the tensions?

Speaker C: Really difficult because with the small business fat on, AI is like a real productivity tool. And I, um, I'm someone whose brain comes live at, at night a lot more. So quite late in the evening. My brain's really worrying. It's very antisocial time of day. For most people, most people are wanting to go to sleep and I'm thinking about all these crazy ideas and I'm thinking I don't really want to keep everyone, I can't keep everyone else awake. That would make me very unpopular. So I do like some of the tools like coach, uh, conversations. Mhm. They're a great way to get those thoughts out, process that thought, put it in logical order, file it way the old days I would have written 25 post it notes, stuck it on the desk, come back to it the next morning, thought oh God, what was I talking about? Um, whereas now I could structure it so it helps me be more efficient I guess, and not lose those ideas. So there's tools like that as a small business owner where I'm, you know, we're a social enterprise which are like really help. Um, and then at the other side I'm thinking, God, how many, you know, what was the carbon footprint of that piece of work that I've just done? Um, versus writing page and page in the notebook or. And I think I went down this tunnel like many other people did quite a while where I was quite obsessive. Like standing in a shop looking at all the shelves, thinking, which is the one which is going to hurt the planet less? But in ages, agonizing over tiny uh, things. Yeah, um, I don't think I've quite got over that but I'm a bit more um, I stepped back from it and I think, well, there's all this big stuff and I know everyone has their own view on this. Um, so I'm aware that this is like for some people, this is, we're talking about almost like religion here for a lot of people. Um, my view on it is you just got to do the best you can. Yep. But do what? I guess what my point is at the moment, a lot of people don't think about those decisions. They don't consider any impact from what they're doing. They will uh, always choose the thing that's best for them, not necessarily the thing that's best for the planet. And sometimes you can make choices that deliver both. So I think there is a piece of work to be done almost to give people informed choices. Um, and I know there's a lot of work going on that. But it's not exactly like a government push it. It's individuals at the moment that are sort of rising up and sharing information with others. Um, there's so much great work going on in that space that sort of bottom up at the moment about Sharing good news, sharing how to do stuff, um, finding ways around things, problem solving, fixing. Um, but that stuff isn't generally widely reported. It's more the doom and gloom and everything's a nightmare and we're all going to die kind of stuff quite often, isn't it, that we hear on the news? Um, yeah.

Speaker A: But yes, we tend to get the extreme, the extreme views, as you say. It is almost a bit evangelical. You know, you either love it and it's the best thing that's ever, ever happened, um, or, yeah, the doom and gloom and gloom aspect. Good. All right. And what. So I'm interested as well to tease out some of your learnings about setting up and running a, uh, community interest company. You know what, what, what? Uh, you said, you know, you were almost asked to do it and said, oh, I don't know what to do or just me or whatever, and you were given a bit of help, but, you know, what have you learned about setting up a, uh, cic? What would you say to people that maybe are considering it?

Speaker C: Well, that's a good question. And, um, I have to say my first sort of foray into this, I went on a Social Enterprise West Midlands program which was, um, funded by Social Enterprise UK. Um, it was like an online program over 12 months and the end result of that was a thousand pound grant and setting up the cic. So I would say I did explore it before I jumped in. I think when I went on that course, I felt like I'd found my tribe. Yeah, I felt like I'd found people who did all sorts of different things, but we all had that shared passion for trying to make, give back or make a difference or do something, whether it was environmental or social or whatever. Um, and I didn't have to explain why I was doing it because everybody else felt the same way. Um, just felt like it was the right thing to do, that we should be doing this, that there was no one else doing it. So why, why wouldn't we have a go sort of thing, um, in terms of, uh, setting up a CIC and how it came about. I did look at all different stretches before I started. Uh, CIC just seemed the one that would give me the flexibility and allow me to give back as well. So I would be transparent about what we were doing. You have an asset lock, you have to meet a community benefit statement, all those things. Um, but you can still trade. And I like the entrepreneurial aspect to it, the ability to create services and solutions and trade. Because I was very nervous about being Completely dependent on grants. I still am because I've seen so many things start and close, start and close and then get reinvented, start and close. And I think there's many people who feel very let down by that. And when you start a social enterprise in a community, you have to build trust and it takes a long time to build that trust for people. And I still have people walking in saying, oh, you haven't closed yet then you're still here. So and so closed the other day, you know, because that is what everybody now is expecting is that ah, you'll only be here as long as that grant exists. And then you'll close and you'll walk away and you'll let us down to

Speaker A: have you m. Managed to navigate that side of things.

Speaker C: Well, it's not, it's not easy because I feel quite often like we're running a community organization and a business. Like, it's almost like having two businesses or two halves of your brain, but one does feed the other. Um, so the way we've done it is we, we've, we've, we sat and we thought about what, what value do we have as individuals? And it started with me, like, what are the, what are the things people are willing to pay for like in, in the wider world? What is the value that I, I could bring to, to another organization or an individual and would they pay for that? And I think at the beginning I was definitely unsure. I was like, who's going to buy me to these stuff, you know. Yeah, um, and then you, you have to put yourself out there as the same as any small business. And over time you learn what people will buy from you and what they value and then you can shape your services that way. So uh, we're very much service based. So that's where I began understanding where was my value, what would people buy from me, where could I add value to what they did? And that started the first sort of services off. So that was writing sort of research and in sort of skills and employment, taking loads of information from loads of organizations, distilling it down into something, uh, sort of easier to communicate and understand than producing ebooks. And then with the council, I taught in FE for a few years. I'd deliver training before. I've delivered workshops for many years for businesses and things and then taken those skills and applying that to community meant that I was fairly comfortable with talking to people, finding out about what they were interested in, coming up with some like personalized learning and creating like um, you know, a basic essential Digital skills Pathway and supported by Learn My Way and the Good Things foundation and the other organizations. But I think it's about saying, okay, what do I already know? What am I good at? Maybe it's from volunteering background, maybe it's from work, maybe it's from family, it could be from any aspect of your life. And then thinking, would that add value to somebody else or another organization? Yes. Do you think, would they actually buy that from me? Yes. Okay, great. Got a business.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what avenues does being a CIC open up that perhaps being a for profit business wouldn't? Being. Well, being a limited company type business wouldn't?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean I've been on this journey. So when I first started I, um, registered a limited company by guarantee because that's the advice I was given. Um, don't do a cic. Register a limited company by guarantee. Then you're still eligible as a not to profit for the grant and you can trade as a business. And that was my first sort of attempt. And then I realized that nobody, nobody was ever going to give you a grant because what was stopping you just taking that money and running off?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but that hadn't really been explained to me and so I was like, oh, I've done the wrong thing. So then I was like, right, okay, what's the right thing? So there was a learning there. Yeah, so. But I was so disappointed, I can't tell you because I just thought everyone will believe in what I'm trying to do and they give me a grant. And this is amazing, you know, just got caught up in all the enthusiasm of it. And then reality was like, well, you know, why would we give you money? You're not a charity, you know. And I was like, oh, okay. But it was really good because somebody gave it to me straight. And then I was like, okay, well I've got a chance to do it different so with being a cic. So we're a community interest company, limited by guarantee. That means we have no shares. Um, there is a community interest guarantee, limited by shares, but they have, they have shares which they can, um, pay dividends or they can use to create attractive investment. I went for the limited by guarantee, no shares, after doing a bit of research just to find out basically that it is, um, the one that, I mean, I would say a lot of public sector organizations still don't like cics compared to a charity, but it's perhaps the more robust version of a cic.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, so you need, I think I've covered that before. You have an asset lock and things like that. So we're a small. You can set up your membership in different ways, but basically, um, the directors and members in our organization, because I think when I started I wanted to keep it really simple. We don't turn over a lot of money. Um, there's not, you know, our activity is quite, um, straightforward in lots of ways. But you can have a CIC with a large membership as well. So that's when everyone who's a member has a voting rights in the organization. Or you can have a bit of both. You can have like a board of directors that have voting rights and then you can have members that have a share of those voting rights. I've seen all sorts of different ways to do it. Um, I still don't think it's that easy for people that aren't in a CIC to understand. And I think there's a bit of work to be done there to educate other organizations about what is the cic, how does it work, how do I know when I'm working with that organization that they are going to do what they say? And I guess in some ways it's not just the cic. That's also true for charity, because both hit the press quite often, don't they? So I went for a CIC limited by guarantee. And that just puts a few more checks and balances in place. You have to have at least a minimum of two directors that are not related. You need to have two signatories on the bank accounts for grants and any sort of financial transaction. You can opt to display in your annual report on Companies House how you've spent your money, who's got what, everything else. So you can be as transparent as you wish, um, with the cic, but you can't. You have to report on lots of information. So it just, for us, it opens up, it builds trust, it builds transparency, it opens up conversations with funders. I think when we first started, we weren't eligible for a lot of grants. Um, I've seen a shift towards more funders allowing CICs limited by guarantee. They're quite specific about which types of CIC. Um, but still there are so many that we're not eligible for so many. I think the biggest thing that's frustrating me at the moment is around digital. Most of the support around digital and community is for charities only. Okay. So if you're a charity, you would be eligible for the charity number for a lot of that, but as a cic, we aren't. I'm a Bit stuck at the moment because I feel like the economy is shouting at me. Grants aren't a reliable income source. Yeah. So if we convert to becoming a charity, we're eligible for the benefits of the sort of digital poverty, digital inclusion side. We get our software licenses for free. There's lots of, um, freebies as the charity. But then we are constricted by what, granting, what trade in income we can have. I think it's 25% maximum of your income could be traded and you have to have special permission to do that. So we then become more reliant on grants and donations. So that feels like I'm, um.

Speaker A: Then we got catch 22, really, whichever way. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I think I keep going round and round in my head, stay as a CIC so that we can trade which is more resilient economically and financially and more flexible. But then in terms of giving what we can to the community, we can't draw down as much stuff. So then we have to buy it. So then it's, um. Yeah, go round and round. I think what I'm hoping is, if this trend continues, more stuff will be available to CICs than it is now. Organizations will start to understand what a CIC is at the top level. Um, and then some of that charitable digital stuff will. Will be available to cics, which means we can give more away, um, donate more.

Speaker A: And what does it mean from you personally, from what you can draw from the company, for example, what, in terms

Speaker C: of salaries and stuff like that?

Speaker A: Yeah. So you know, it's asset. Asset locked. Then there's. There's restrictions.

Speaker C: Yeah, we can't take. So, for example, if I left the business tomorrow, I left the CIT tomorrow, I could. I'd have to leave everything there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: The laptop that I use. Well, the only thing in the office that's mine is the desk and the chair, because I brought that from home. Um. But yeah, none of it's mine. I wouldn't be taking any of that. That would stay. And then the. It would need to go to another organization. So, for example, it's Staffordshire and Shropshire Community foundation, uh, the asset lock. But you can nominate any charitable organization or if they're willing to be nominated, so they would decide what happens to all of that equipment and any assets we have. We don't have a lot of assets. We've got a lot of refurbished and repurposed kit. It probably comes to about with the chairs and the desks and everything, probably about three and a half grand or something like that. But we wouldn't be able to take that and sell it, for example, and give ourselves some money because we don't own it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And there's restrictions around what you can pay yourselves as directors as well, isn't, um, there.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So one of the restrictions is around market rate. So, um, you have to be paying yourself a market rate, max. Well, you don't have to be paying yourself that. There is a maximum you should be paying yourself. Sorry, just to clarify that, so you would perhaps look at what is the average salary for a. The IT director for this turnover, um, or something similar like that. And I mean, there's a lot of ethics involved as well. Right. Self regulation, um, about what you pay yourself. Um, but it's not. I think it's slightly different. Like a charity would have a board of trustees that would set the salaries and, um, the CEO would be employed by the charity and any sort of pay would be approved by the board and that's how it would work. I think this. I've been thinking about this a lot. If we convert to a charity and we set that up, we will need to spend more on accountancy fees. There is more regulation and reporting required as well. Um, and do I, as someone who's set this up, do I want to give away. I mean, it's interesting because we already have a panel and they do get very involved in what we do and they're very involved. So it's almost like we've almost got a small charity set up already. Um, and everyone knows what we all earn. Um, we don't overcharge. We're keeping ourselves below market rate. Um, because we want the organization. Well, we want as much to go back in as possible, but there is always going to be, and I have this conversation a lot with different social enterprises. I don't think you can get away from that feeling of, okay, I'm taking a salary, I've got to take a salary, because if I don't take a salary, I cannot afford to work in this social enterprise.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And ever since day one, I've taken the salary.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: But I feel quite comfortable with that because I also bring in quite more than. It's about 60% of our income. 60, 70% is traded.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Yeah. Alongside Grant. So no one else can do that except the people working in the social enterprise. So you have to pay them, otherwise you're going to lose them.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Very good. Thank you very much, uh, for sharing that, because I think that will be really useful for anybody listening who's considering one of the options as to how they should set up and form their company, what structure they should use. So really good. Thank you. Um, that's been fascinating. Are you all right if we just do a couple of quick fire questions before we close?

Speaker B: Vicki?

Speaker A: Um, so what does good look like for you in 5 years time? Where do you want to be?

Speaker C: Wow. Um, it's so funny because I never think about myself, I always think about everyone else. Um, I think we could have more than a couple of hubs across Shropshire and Cheshire because I think we've learned how to build it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And who might be interested in volunteering with us because we rely on. It's a volunteer LED model and we can't see the need going anywhere, all this support. But I think what I mean by Community Hub, which at, uh, the moment is very digital focused with a bit of sustainability, what I hope is that there is a model which, like we've helped with a repair cafe, for example, in the town. I think the model is much more of a blended model of community services in one place. Um, because people come in and they come in because can't access their benefits or their pension or their bank or their shopping or the, the reasons they come in are so interconnected with many other support services and digital is often, quite often a gateway to those services. So I hope in the future that it will be more like a multi disciplinary approach. I do hope that. And there's some amazing work going on nationally. Um, have a look at the Grove, have a look at the work, uh, that Alex Hughes is leading on with Citizen Hub. Um, and that's about putting community, community at the heart of these hubs and helping anyone from the community to succeed and thrive. But yeah, so for us, I think we're going slow. I mean, what does great even mean? What do we want at the end of this? I think it's, we want to reach as many people as possible, but enjoy it on the way.

Speaker A: Yeah, brilliant. Good. What advice would you give to the younger, younger Vicky, if you went back?

Speaker C: Um, what advice I give myself. Keep believing. And I think I'm someone who has no regrets. I have no regrets. And, um, I think everything happens for a reason and I still believe in that. And I think I would say have, have more confidence probably to my younger self. It takes a long time, doesn't it, sometimes, to um, get that confidence?

Speaker A: Absolutely brilliant. Good advice. And what about books, podcasts, learning resources, anything specific you'd like to highlight to others?

Speaker C: I'm loving the good growth, uh, podcast that I, um, Can't remember the authority. Um, that's on LinkedIn at the moment. Just positive new news stories.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, David Gallagher does a really good substack post. Um, Jenny Anderson. These guys, like, they sort of step back from it and they give like, really insightful views of things that are going on in the world that, um, aren't things. They're like different narratives to, to what's going on, but very thoughtful ones. Um, so I enjoy reading those sorts of things. Um, but yeah, I tend to focus on people who are doing stuff. Yeah. People who, uh, showing what can be done rather than saying we can't do it because.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So, uh, those, I'd recommend all of those.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Okay. And given that, you know, part of what you're talking about is the digital side, you know, what about apps, bits of tech, bits of software. Anything specific that you think is a game changer or that you would highlight to other people that you found particularly useful.

Speaker C: Interesting. I tried a lot of different stuff. The thing that this is really going to be unpopular, but the thing that has stuck with me is, um, I have loads of apps. I've tried and stopped, tried and stopped. I have to say I'm an early adopter. I try things out and I think. And it doesn't stick. The thing that has stuck is I have a diary. I have a physical diary called Busy Bee and it's a brilliant diary. I recommend it to anyone who's a busy person. And it's like a scheduler. And I have used that for years. And the reason I use it is because it makes me process what's in my diary and write it down and, um, think. And that actual process of writing it out triggers like, okay, what haven't I thought about what else can move to next week? I do that. And then the second thing that I do is I have created like a desk pad. And on my desk pad I have boxes of, ah, the important things I need to think about.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: But as a team, we use Trello, we use Planner, we've got somebody using Notion, we use Monday. And the reason is because for every project that we work on, um, well, a. I've got a really diverse team. So they don't all like Microsoft, some hate Microsoft and only like Google. Um, and they can't, they struggle with the change in operating system and moving between them. So to get them working at their best, they're working on their system and then the clients we work with are all on different software. So you almost have to become skilled in about 10 different platforms so that you can speak to whatever they're using.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So, yeah. So I'm really sorry that I'm like a bit.

Speaker A: That's great.

Speaker C: No teams or zoom. That's a whole nother conversation, isn't it? But nowadays we just use both. So, yeah, Google Meet. You just have to keep, um, responding to whatever. I tend to be like, okay, you're using that, we'll use that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and so, um, and within the

Speaker A: team and M. I guess what you're making sure is, is that it's. You're not creating any barriers by insisting on, um, um, something specific that other people might find difficult.

Speaker C: So, yeah, uh, I haven't found a solution. If you have found one, Kevin, that you can share. I, I haven't found one yet. Not one that's affordable anyway.

Speaker A: No, uh, and I, and I like the diary approach and I agree with it wholeheartedly. There is something about the being intentional about something about writing it down and not just having it automated in some way. So there's clearly things that should be automated, but equally we need to reserve the human decision point, uh, and keep. Preserve that in whatever process we have so that we're not just relying on what's spat out from an automation or an AI or something like that. And simply writing it down does definitely do something, uh, in the brain, doesn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah. And also I've got consider I'm a mum, I've got kids, I've got a husband, I've got a dog, I've got a busy life. And so I've got my work version of the world and then I've got my home version of the world and I need to bring it all together and make sure that, you know, if I was working in construction, I'd say I'd make sure there's no class. It's like clash detection. And by writing it out it highlights the clashes, whereas otherwise there's a risk. I've got all my work stuff going on and I've scheduled all this stuff and what I haven't factored in is so and so needs to be at a, uh, match on Thursday at 6 o' clock and I'm on a call and then you're like, oh. So I think that's true for anyone who's got caring responsibility and I haven't found a solution to that which doesn't intrude on your life because if you. For all those scheduling tools, they can become a bit invasive and it can be hard to leave them behind when you take a break. Whereas, like a physical diary, you can just close that and leave it on the side. So I think it's important to have, uh, some boundaries, I think, between, uh, work and home.

Speaker A: That's great. Well, Vicky, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you. Thank you very much, Steve, for coming on Skill Up Radio and being my guest today. If people would like to get hold of you or find out more about Bizzed, what's the best way for them to do that? Vicky?

Speaker C: Um, probably the website or LinkedIn is the. You can always message me on LinkedIn. Um, that's probably the two best ways. Or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Then we'll put some of those links and details in the show notes. Fantastic. Vicky Ayden. Thank you very much, Steve, for being my guest on Skateboard at Radio.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker D: I hope you enjoyed that discussion. And if you're building and scaling your own business, you might well be interested in our, uh, book, the Entrepreneurial Scale Up System. And it's exactly what it says on the tin. It's a practical handbook around scaling a business in a structured way. And you can order a copy on all your favorite online retailers, including an audio version version. Or you can find it and other supporting resources on our website, www.esusgroup.co.uk that's, uh, esusgroup.co.uk, which is E S U S G-R-O-U P.co.uk

Speaker C: um, this has been

Speaker A: a Monkeypants Productions podcast. Um,