Let's talk about the Rollercoaster of TA

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business.

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Speaker A: Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more@accenture.com Spotify. Hello everyone. Welcome to Practitioner Corner. This is your host, Laura. I am joined today by a talent acquisition leader who I've known for a very long time and I'm very excited is here. Welcome, Dan Goyen. Dan. Did I pronounce that properly?

Speaker B: That was great, Laura. Yes, thank you.

Speaker A: I hate that I get that wrong sometimes because I have a hard last name too. As you know, with Missoula.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I've heard some pretty interesting interpretations of it over the years, but, uh, you did a good job. Thanks.

Speaker A: Thank you. Goyeneche is a beautiful name. So welcome, Dan.

Speaker B: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: So I was trying to think of how long we've known each other and I couldn't. It's been a long time.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. I mean, I want to say maybe like maybe 10 years, but probably a little bit less than that. I don't know if we connected first. Maybe when you were still even, um, where did you work before you went on your Michael Page?

Speaker A: I was at Michael Page and I launched my own business 13 years ago. So that would mean that we were in touch more than 13.

Speaker B: It might have been around that time. And you also took off a lot on LinkedIn. So I don't know if I started following you first or if we had just interacted because we're local and we're in the same space. Um, but it's been a while. And um, I think I know that over the years we've done a pretty good job of staying in touch, even if it's just liking and commenting a post here and there. But I know that we, uh, we do try to interact. Maybe not like this, but like on a call or something or webinars or something, you know, fairly regularly. It's uh. You're one of a few people in my network that I've been able to, um, maintain a long term relationship, mostly digitally.

Speaker A: Yeah, me too. And it's been so trusting, which I really appreciate. I feel like you and I sort of built that early on and then when we connect and when we catch up, it always feels like we can kind of get past small talk. To the real stuff, which I really value.

Speaker B: We can get right into it. Yeah, I mean, I think you. You set that tone and I followed, so thank you.

Speaker A: Oh, good. I'm so glad. Well, you know, I think as New Yorkers, we don't really. We don't waste time. It's like, let's get into it. What's on your mind?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, there's like a 45 to 90 second window of pleasantries, and it's like, all right, let's. Let's go.

Speaker A: Yeah. There's just so many more meaty, meaningful things to discuss. And so that's what I wanted to do today, is just take some time. And, you know, I was asked this question years ago by William, William Tincup. He had asked me, laura, you know, what keeps you up at night when you think about work? And, you know, obviously I value sleep, and hopefully nothing actually keeps me up. But I like the question theoretically, which is like, you know, when I'm quiet with myself, what am I thinking about when it comes to recruiting and HR and the world of work? And I know you do a lot of introspection as well, so I wanted to kind of throw the baton to you and ask you what you think is really kind of keeping you up at night lately.

Speaker B: Nice. Thanks. That's a good question. It is a meaty one, right? So you said, hey, let's get into the meat. Here it is. Um, I mean, what keeps me up is, like, caffeine and, like, just like, general anxiety. Right. But, like, when I think about work, the field of ta, um, it's the shortest way to put it is just the rate, an amount of change. And I hate to use the word disruption because it's so just like, you know, but, um. But the amount of change.

Speaker A: How I feel about strategic. It's like, we need to say it, but it's sort of vague. Yeah.

Speaker B: Put it up on the black list of bad words, like, do not use, um. But no, you know, I don't know. But there's so much subtext underneath that, I think what drives at least the general sort of like, um, worry and anxiety for folks like me or like you. Like, I spend an unhealthy amount of time on LinkedIn, and I feel like everyone, everywhere, is solving every problem. They've made bots that can automate every aspect of their life. And they're, you know, they have. They do one intake call, and then they have an AI bot that's gonna do the transcript. It's gonna generate, um, interview questions. It's gonna make scorecards, it's gonna draft a candidate outreach. And then while you were Asleep, it sourced 55 candidates that are all battle ready. And it made a website as well that it. They can go and view. And I'm like, oh, my God, like, I'm still trying to just get through, like, Claude Cowork 101 and, like, fine tuning, like, you know, how I. How I can prompt and how to get, like, artifacts out that don't look horrible or sound like just garbage, recycled AI slop. And so, like, that's the most immediate thing. But if you zoom, um, out, even over the past three to five years, the roller coasters that we've been on as a profession have just been completely out of control, like, going back to, like, Covid and great resignation and whatever the hell we want to call what happened after that. And it just feels like every, I don't know, 12 to 15 months, there's just, like, some new existential threat to our profession that as. As a leader in the space and as somebody who cares about continuing to, like, own their craft and stay in touch and plugged in, it is exhausting to stay on top of all of that. All of that. Uh, and so it's no wonder that, like, so many people have decided to leave the profession over the years or they've. They've burnt out, or they've started fractional consulting practices like me, um, and, you know, just looking for a way maybe like, off the ride for a little bit, to just chill and catch our breath. I know that was a lot, but.

Speaker A: No, I hear you. That's. I. That was very articulate, and I know exactly what you mean. I think we need to kind of unpack it a little bit more because there's just so much coming up for me with what you're saying. I think one, let's just make space to everybody listening who's feeling that fatigue and that roller coaster. I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, someone said to me the other day, oh, my gosh, you started your business in 2013. Was that a difficult market? And I was like, no, I would have never started a business in a difficult market. Like, it didn't even occur to me that there would be slow turn because obviously I had worked through 2008 and 2009. I know you did as well. And then, like, once we kind of bounced back from that, it. It was flowing for so many years that I kind of, I guess, naively just felt like, oh, there's always a need for help. There HR hiring is always happening and HR leaders always need help. And, um, I felt like 2020, I was really thrown, like a wow, okay, it can stop. And then 21, 23, as you said, we all had this exciting boom again. And. And then 24, 25 just stopped again. And. And we're kind of coming out of it now. But it's so slow and sticky, isn't it? Just doesn't feel like a real boom yet.

Speaker B: There's a bit of whiplash and there's justified, um. What's the word? Like, trepidation. Right? Like, yeah, I see it. I keep an eye on the job market. I get job alerts every day. I again, spend an unhealthy amount of time on LinkedIn. I see the job changes, see who's hiring. It does seem like we're coming out of it, but I think both on the company and the candidate side, there's this cautiousness. Right. Of like, if I'm a company, I see jobs open for six months, reposted several times. Um, so clearly there's something going on there with the company not wanting to pull the trigger candidates as well. Like, is this job real? Am I going to go into an interview loop that's gonna go for six rounds or ten rounds? Um, and there's this weird dance and then there's the AI thing on top of it, which, like, I frankly don't want to get into too much today. But, like, there's that on top of it. So it just seems like a, uh, like Spider man meme. Like, everybody's just, like, pointing the finger at each other and no one's actually doing anything. Although the jobs seem like they are there and it seems like people are getting hired. It's just, it. It's not anywhere near the extremes we saw on either end with the kind of, you know, super in demand era of like, was it 2021, maybe? 20. Yeah. Like, yeah, second half of 2020 through second half of, uh, 2021. So that was like peak demand for TA. And then it was like the total opposite in 23 and 24, which was like total ghost town tumbleweeds. Yeah. Of no jobs available. So we're kind of somewhere in the middle and teetering, but everybody still just seems really, really cautious to pull the trigger or to. Or to expand or to people to leave a current role. I don't know. Just general caution exists, I think, everywhere in the market right now.

Speaker A: I think it's so odd that we don't really have any laws against. Is this job Real to your point? Like, it's sort of. I don't know. I think that there are organizations who understandably want to shop for candidates and want a pipeline and. But I wish they would say that. And there was a while where you would see that in an ad. Right. Like, we're just really hoping to pipeline great TA talent or whatever talent they were looking for. And I thought that was so classy to be that transparent. I haven't seen that in a while. Um, and then to your point, I see things that are kind of open and then reopen and reopen again. And I'm always wondering, oh, did they just pay for 90 days worth of advertising? And they haven't actually gone in there and taken it down or. And it's just odd that there's no real, like, regulation around that.

Speaker B: I feel like, uh, I don't know if it was in Canada, maybe in Ontario or somewhere in emea, um, efforts to try and limit ghost jobs, which is great, but, like, you know, good luck trying to police that. Yeah, I don't know how you're going to do it, but. And then on the, on the pipelining and, like, being candid about it, like. Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a tactic. You know, we've been using that for 20 years in the profession of using pipeline wrecks and things like that and trying to be about it. But I think right now teams are still lean, being asked to do a lot. Um, so if somebody is like pipelining right now, like, they should probably be doing other stuff with their time. I think there's probably a lot of stuff broken internally they can be looking to fix, or they could be tinkering with AI tools to try and make things better, or they can brush up on their business acumen or fuck some other talent partner muscles. Right. Like, those are the things that, like, as a, as a leader, you're like, man, I wish my team had free time to kind of learn some of that stuff or to invest in training and things like that. But I don't know. I don't know that that's happening either right now.

Speaker A: Okay, so when you gave me your initial answer of what keeps you up at night, I wrote down, because, you know, I'm an old school note taker, I like jotting things down when I listen. And I heard you say that you feel like people are trying to solve every problem and it's just a lot, like, a lot of disruption, a lot of change. Do you want to say more about, like, what you mean by that or what you're noticing. And again, I agree with you that we're a little played out of the AI conversation, but if you mean some of that, that's fine. I just want to make sure I'm clear.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, okay. I'm trying to organize my thoughts around this a little bit because I try. I don't want to speak in generalities, but maybe it is just the clickbaity. Self promotion. Self promotive. All right. Nature.

Speaker A: That's fun. Self promoting. Self promotive is a good word.

Speaker B: Self promoting. Yeah, thanks. Uh, self promoting nature of, um, LinkedIn. But I feel like every person there is like, I've solved it and I've built all these things and it's like, wow, that is overwhelming. And you can't help but feel behind if you're not doing all those things.

Speaker A: Okay, um, I see what you're saying. Yeah.

Speaker B: So I'm trying to ground myself a little bit. So having like, real conversations like this with real people who are in doing the work is very grounding. Because, like, I spoke to somebody who works at a large bank and they're like, I like, okay, like, we're still on year two of a workday implementation and like, yeah, they bought Paradox, but like, maybe our call centers can start to use that next year. And I'm like, oh, all right. Well, now I guess I don't feel so bad that I don't have an army of, you know, bots doing the work of, uh, you know, five to ten recruiters and sorcerers here, which some people would have you to believe. Um, so like, that I think is just, it's just pummeling a lot of us in the face and it's extremely overwhelming.

Speaker A: So let's just go slow at this point because I think this is really smart and nobody's really talking about this. So if we're the first ones to really get into it, then I'm thrilled.

Speaker B: Bullish.

Speaker A: So that people feel less and less alone here. But, um, the self promoting nature of people in talent acquisition versus the reality is major. And so thank you for bringing that up. I think that, you know, I'm concerned also by the lack of humility in ta, and yet I think it's out of insecurity. Right. I don't think it's actual, like, confidence. I think that probably everybody is feeling a little scrambled and like, they need to be performing perfectly. And to your point, there's pressure in kind of a crappier job market to like, retain your job and retain your value and to feel important. And so people are being a little arrogant, even though I think it's really just masking insecurity a lot of the time. And so if we could just be honest about what we're nervous about and insecure about and afraid of, like, all those masks would come off and it would be so much better for our community.

Speaker B: That is lovely and beautiful and I agree. And thankfully it happens a bit, you know, in small doses. And I think what you're trying to do here with conversations like this will hopefully, uh, take off and make that a more common thing. But like, think about the people who are in HR and talent acquisition. We are all people pleasers. We are all eager to be accepted and valued. We're still talking about seat at the table. That's in a Sherm book from in like 1996 probably, you know, so like we're. That is still hard coded in our profession and in the people who, who um, continue to choose this.

Speaker A: Yeah. As a profession concerning like, the part that confuses me is that it. It ma. It like presents as insecurity, so. Or it presents. It presents as arrogance. I don't know how to describe it. I'm trying to think of an example, like lately. Well, you know that in addition to HR search, I also coach and train if hiring managers need help with recruiting. And so I've had a lot of executives say to me, you know, our internal recruiting team really could use some up leveling, I think, you know, we haven't really partnered with them as strategic advisors and we need them to get to that place. Okay, great. So they'll put me in touch with the head of ta and unfortunately, more often than not, the head of TA will be defensive and say to me, you know, I know how to do that. I don't need help with that. Like, okay, I just, I think we might all need help with that. It's ultimately transitioning to your point, Dan, from historical conditioning we've had as a profession to be the yes person and yes, Mr. Client and yes, Mr. Hiring manager to now now wanting to be really perceived as an expert, as a partner, as a guide, as an advisor. And that is a transition. But there's almost this defensiveness or this resistance to it that's like confident people don't have that wall. So it's, it's like I'm like, oh, I think this is so tricky because how can you train and develop a population that's really feeling so insecure but then presenting as defensive? It's so hard. I know you get what I'm saying?

Speaker B: So I do. I do. And it's like. But it's so complicated to. To, like, unpack that and dig into that. It's so many different layers and levels of. Whatever you want to call it, guardedness, M. Trauma, like, whatever. Depending on the person, the environment, their history, their backstory. I. I have been in TA for a long time, and I've probably worked for, like, two to three TA leaders who were actually like, business. Business people that happened to work in ta. You know, like, that's the new sort of. Maybe not expectation, but I think that's sort of the, uh. Like, North Star is like, yeah, is like, be. Don't look at me as a TA professional. Look at me as a business or an operations professional that happens to work in TA or hr, because I understand sales and revenue cycle, because I understand product life cycle, because I understand, you know, your CSAT scores and what it takes to get there. Like, that's where you want to go. And so back to your point about a TA leader being guarded and not wanting to admit that they need to train their people. Well, that's supposed to be our job, partially to train our folks on that, to give them the exposure to the business so that they actually know what they're talking about. To provide the coaching, to provide the training. We unfortunately don't have a lot of time to do that, or there are plenty of people who. They're guarded. They don't want to share that information with their teams. They don't want their teams to look better. It was really hard for me to get to this role, and I'm going to keep it, and I'm going to do that by hoarding information and making it. And. And, you know, funnily, uh, enough, I'm the guy they hire after that person doesn't work out. Right.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So, um. Because I just have a very, very different mindset and outlook and mentality on that. But this isn't.

Speaker A: This is.

Speaker B: This stuff is not always readily available, I think, because TA is always trying to not reinvent itself, but, like, there's always an identity crisis because. Stop me if you've heard these before. Recruiting is sales, recruiting is marketing. Recruiting is whatever. Product recruiting should be run, like product management. Uh, the thing I just said before, a business person, but you happen to work in recruiting. You know, like, we don't have our own thing. It's just like, here is. Here's how you do this, here's how you do it well, and that just doesn't exist. We borrow from other places, which I think is fine overall. But it goes back to the same point we were talking about earlier. You're totally overwhelmed and confused on where do you actually go? Where do I go for help? Where do I go to figure out how am I supposed to do this right at my company, with my team.

Speaker A: And that's uh, yeah. And to your point earlier, when we actually talk to people in, in the weeds of this role right now, they're not doing nearly half of the cutting edge AI focused things we're reading about and hearing about. I mean, I would say most of our peers, and I'm sure everyone listening is cringing, but I mean this, most of our peers are not even doing structured interviewing yet. They're not even doing scorecards yet. They're barely doing really thorough intake meetings. They're, they're barely utilizing their high end applicant tracking system. I mean, I feel like I still talk to a lot of internal recruiters who are either just sourcing all day through applicants, like looking through who's applied and that's their entire day. Because to your point, it's not enough time or they're, they're scared to push back on managers because that is scary and they haven't been trained on it. But it's like, I think what you're reading about when you say LinkedIn is inundated with like modernity. It's not actually things people are doing. And there's such a, there's an interesting divide there.

Speaker B: It's tough. I think a lot of it is sector specific too, or maybe company size specific. Um, I tend to run in a lot of tech circles and there, I think the noise is really loud. Um, but there's probably also some meat to it. There probably are people in that space who are doing some of these things. But if you look at, like I said before, banking or insurance, um, healthcare, like I don't know much about healthcare, but I can't imagine that, um, it's terribly innovative or that sources have time recruiting recruiters and sources have time to go build AI tools when they're trying to staff, you know, ER nurses or something like that. Like that's. Yeah, that's gotta be pretty difficult. And I don't think. Wait, let me rephrase that. There is a similar thread and it is that as leaders we don't always get, have the luxury to carve out the time to help our teams do their jobs better.

Speaker A: Yeah, we have to think more about that. I feel like we'll need to have a section 2 of this conversation about time. Because I think that's another very specific to TA problem, that somehow, like, we're just overworked and don't have enough time. And that is not true in every other department.

Speaker B: In some. In some it is. But I remember you saying this a long time ago. Like, uh, like the idea of, like, wearing busy as a badge, you know, like, as a badge of honor, um,

Speaker A: I'm so not into that anymore. I think that's how we were conditioned, but it's just not appealing.

Speaker B: It's not. There's a difference between being busy and being effective. And, you know, they're not mutually exclusive, and they're not necessarily two ends of the spectrum, but one can be effective without constantly having your hair on fire and being back to, back to back to back meetings all day for six to eight hours of your day. Um, time.

Speaker A: Um, what advice do you have right now for any TA pro? Listening? Like, I know it's hard to summarize what we've been talking about, but what. Just assume there's somebody on this listening going, oh, my gosh, I'm overwhelmed. I. I am struggling with this mask. I am struggling with my worthiness. I am struggling with time management. I am struggling to feel like an imposter.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, what do you. What do you want to say to them?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I think the biggest. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, totally. Of course you are. Like, we all are.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, but no, I get it. And you're not alone.

Speaker A: I know.

Speaker B: You know, we do always feel like we have to solve all these problems on our own. And, like, that is definitely a common thing. I see with all the TA leaders and high performing TA folks I've known

Speaker A: over my career too.

Speaker B: We don't. But we don't have to have to. There are spaces and places for us. You got to find them. And it's not LinkedIn. I'm sorry. No, I know that's just gonna make you feel so much worse. But, like, there are. There are communities out there. There are slack communities. There are in real life, you know, in person networking events, There are conferences. Although be wary of that. But, like, like, we're out here, right? Uh, us TA folks, we're out here. We're all going through a lot of the same stuff. There's a lot of power in the community. And in just like, hearing other people and not even bouncing ideas off of, like, no one who's listening to this has to, like, reach out and be like, I want to bounce ideas with you, but, like, just like, showing up here and listening to this and hearing other people talk about what they're dealing with, like, that's just, like, so validating all the time.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it is. It is. And you're reminding me that, you know, receiving help and receiving support is such a skill. Like, if you. I would want to say that to anybody listening, like, uh, receiving is a skill. You know, most of us are really good at giving in this profession. We're good at giving advice and giving, you know, whatever, a million career tips to everybody that we meet and. But it's actually equally as important to strengthen the skill of receiving, so. Because if anything, I will tell you, the more I speak directly to CEOs and founders and executives, they'll say to me, I wish I had known my TA team was under staffed, or, I wish I had known they needed training. I wish I had known they needed a new technology. Like, they never came to me. They never voiced any concern. And, um, the more I dug into that, the more I realized it's because people don't really feel like they can receive it. They don't feel worthy of it. They don't even consider themselves, like, just capable of that. And it's. It's something you can practice by. Just as you said, ask for help, seek it, have a conversation, talk to your boss, talk to your peer. Like, it's a practice and it does come with time. I think I've gotten better at it with experience as well. But it's. It's like we're really doing ourselves a disservice if we think we're just amazing givers, but we don't ever receive any support. It's just like, dysfunctional beyond.

Speaker B: Uh, it's like two sides of the same coin. Or it's. You know, I say this, I say this to, like, my kids a lot. Like, the universe exists. Imbalance.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: You can't have light without dark. So you can't give, give, give without being able to receive. I think I love, uh, that.

Speaker A: I agree. Yeah.

Speaker B: But you are right. It takes. It is a skill. It takes time. It takes lowering of, uh, ego and pride. And that's not something that modern business really has values for. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: It's changing, but, yeah, I think American business especially, we have. Not really, like in the New York area, particularly where we are. I think it's even more just about output. Hopefully it's evolving. I wanted to ask you one last, One last question before we go because, you know, I know you're an avid reader and like me, you're very good at self reflection and introspection. And I just was curious, do you have a quote or kind of a catchphrase that you love that you think about when you think about work or ta?

Speaker B: Oh, man.

Speaker A: Um, I know there's many. I mean, you've just said a few here that I love.

Speaker B: I do have many. Um, it depends on the setting of the situation. Uh, in no order of importance, here's

Speaker A: a few of them.

Speaker B: Um, I mean, the trite one is like, be the change you wish to see in the world. Like, that's great, that's aspirational. Put it up on your wall and like, look at it. But like, you know, that's tough. Um, but, um, I remember seeing, I think it was an African proverb that something along the lines of, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. Um, and that I love that. That is like a core, core value of mine, especially as a leader. That is like a leadership principle that I bring to every team I lead. Right. Like, I don't do lone wolves. That does not help us succeed together. Um, so I'll stop with that one because I probably got about 5 more I can start to rattle off.

Speaker A: But yeah, oh, yeah, I love that. I think, and it's such a great point about what we've talked about here, that even, you know, those of us who do work alone or in smaller teams, like, it's the power of community that you always know there's a together, that there, there are people you can turn to. There are people that can advise you and guide you and inspire you. And it's, it's really very important. And I think you nailed it when you said, like, unfortunately, it requires your ego getting checked. And, and that's why I'm saying to you, it's funny, the two sides of the same coin. I think it's what I was saying earlier about insecurity versus arrogance. Like, you don't actually think overall the TA space is just filled with arrogant people. But I do think we probably have quite a few insecure people who are presenting as arrogant. And I think if we can just remember to be in it together and to let ourselves receive support, a lot of that will start going away.

Speaker B: I hope so. Um, you know, it happens in smaller doses. It happens in one to one interactions or if you're lucky enough to work in an organization that creates an environment like that. Yes, that is great. Um, it is still the exception.

Speaker A: And we can't keep blaming executives for it. Like when people are like, oh, my CEO will say no. I'm like, well, ask first. You know, you don't know.

Speaker B: Yes, that takes time. Again, we're all people pleasers, right?

Speaker A: So, yeah, how do we dismantle people pleasing as a profession? It's going to take just immense amount of self reflection.

Speaker B: It's going to take a long time and new generations of, of people, you know, getting into the field and getting into positions of leadership and well, now

Speaker A: seen as partners too. It's like, that has helped me a lot personally when it's like, well, you know, your client, your hiring manager isn't somebody you have to quote, serve or please.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: There's somebody that ideally is your buddy, your partner, that you're in it as a team. You know, uh, we didn't even have time to get into today, but like hiring manager satisfaction, like if you look at that metric, it's like, that's just creating people pleasing. It's not healthy.

Speaker B: We. There's. That's one of two or three topics we didn't get into today that we could easily devote another 30 plus minutes on.

Speaker A: Um, you're right. If anybody listening wants us to get into anything else, please comment and we will.

Speaker B: Dan.

Speaker A: Yeah. Dan Amora, thank you for joining today. Dan, it's always great chatting with you.

Speaker B: Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for having me. This was fun. And, uh, conversations like this are always a little cathartic, you know, just to get some of this stuff out into the world. But, um, yes, I appreciate you thinking of me and, and for asking me to come on. I hope someone found at least a nugget of it helpful and I appreciate what you guys are doing here with this, uh, with this podcast. So keep it up.

Speaker A: Thank you. Okay, we'll see you soon, everyone. Have a great day. Talk to you soon.